Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Archtyrant Terevoth 08-05-07, 04:16 PM	Okay, the Silver flame is a force for good. They want to purge evil from the land and all that. They've also got a lot of corruption in their midst too, but why? You can ferret out corruption with a couple of simple spells, detect evil and detect magic. Scan a group with detect magic to make sure they don't have any spells like undetectable alignment up. Then use detect evil. The only two spells which thwart this sort of thing are misdirection and nondetection, both of them wizard and not cleric spells. Even still, you can beat those by casting a simple spell on a target. If you can't see it with detect magic, then you know he's shielded. So given that a 1st level cleric has the tools to detect any corruption, why is it that the silver flame (or any good church in Eberron for that matter) has problems with corrupt evil people in its midst?
The_Gimp 08-05-07, 04:22 PM	Accepting a bribe doesn't make you evil, nor does lying. There's a difference between comitting evil acts and just closing your eyes on something. Let's say a cop arrests you for exceeding the speed limit and you put a 100$ in his hands if he tears the ticket and forgets about you, chances are, if he's a corrupt cop, that he'll do it (hey I know I would!), still the guy might be a decorated hero cop and still be a good guy you know. ;) I see it the same way for the Silver Flame, corruption ain't necessary being evil, it's just bein more chaotic than say, lawful... Money has more power than spells or swords sometimes.
nightside_samurai 08-05-07, 04:24 PM	Because evil =/= corrupt in Eberron. Or in the real world for that matter. I don't remember the name of the guy but there's an evil Cardinal or something in the Silver Flame hierarchy but he does his job well. Why is he evil? Maybe he beats his wife or kicks puppies for a hobby. Does he think he's evil? I doubt it, because he is sincerely supporting a cause for good. It's a bit silly to assume that every evil person is a bad guy.
Archtyrant Terevoth 08-05-07, 04:30 PM	Because evil =/= corrupt in Eberron. Or in the real world for that matter. I don't remember the name of the guy but there's an evil Cardinal or something in the Silver Flame hierarchy but he does his job well. Why is he evil? Maybe he beats his wife or kicks puppies for a hobby. Does he think he's evil? I doubt it, because he is sincerely supporting a cause for good. It's a bit silly to assume that every evil person is a bad guy. But the silver flame's basic tenets are to destroy evil. It's okay to kill someone simply because they're evil. That's how they got into such trouble wiping out the shifters, because someone decided to up and label all shifters as evil and worthy of destruction. Now, imagine what happens if you've got a detect evil spell directly telling you someone is evil. I can certainly understand why they may not be able to kill every evil person due to local laws, but there's no reason to have evil people in their church hierarchy ever.
Rerecros 08-05-07, 04:41 PM	Where does it say their goal is to destroy all evil? They'd have to kill a lot of random jerks who pose no obvious threat to accomplish that. The Silver Flame's goals have more to do with destroying inhuman evil.
nightside_samurai 08-05-07, 05:04 PM	But the silver flame's basic tenets are to destroy evil. It's okay to kill someone simply because they're evil. That's how they got into such trouble wiping out the shifters, because someone decided to up and label all shifters as evil and worthy of destruction. Actually they didn't wipe out Shifters because there are tons of them on Eberron. It's funny how the anti-shifter hysteria gets blown out of proportion. The reason a relatively small amount of Shifters were targetted by the general populace was because they had no idea if they were Lycanthropes or not. The Silver Flame was out to stop the Lycans because the curse was spreading like wildfire through the continent and other efforts to stop it were failing. Some members of the Church helped good Lycanthropes escape to another plane and even Shifters helped hunt down evil Lycanthropes. And like Rerecros said, I've never heard that their goal was to destroy evil. If it was then they'd be doing a **** poor job at it. The bottom line is that evil is not so black and white in Eberron as in other settings. The man who just donated thousands of gold pieces to an orphanage or built a hospital for the poor, or discovered a cure for Lycanthropy could very well be evil. The fact that the Church doesn't walk down the street Detecting Evil on everyone and smiting them shows that they recognize the foolishness of such a venture, especially if that evil is serving the greater good.
JulesCARV 08-05-07, 05:11 PM	It would be kinda interesting/amusing if Cardinal Krozen were open about being evil but in a sort of Augustine-like confessional style that people tended not to take seriously. "Oh, I am a terrible sinner! My mind is depraved by lust for temporal power and political domination, by greed and hatred, and a thousand other depravities! Evil suffuses my very soul, yet only by surrendering myself to the will of the Flame can I go beyond my corruption, baseness, and worthlessness as a man, and fulfill my true destiny as a vessel of the Silver Flame's righteous will!" When he talks like that, though, no one actually thinks "this is a bad guy, and we need to get replace him and kick him out of his high position in the Church." Instead, they think, "yeah, yeah, you're evil, we get it. Now could you shut up and can we please get back to planning Thrane's infrastructure spending in this year's budget?"
Archtyrant Terevoth 08-05-07, 05:20 PM	Where does it say their goal is to destroy all evil? They'd have to kill a lot of random jerks who pose no obvious threat to accomplish that. The Silver Flame's goals have more to do with destroying inhuman evil. Right here So long as evil exists, the world remains flawed and cannot become whole. By ridding the world of all evil, the Silver Flame will transform Eberron into a paradise without wickedness or sin or pain. And as far as human evil, it's included in their hierarchy. -Those who choose Evil. This includes all evil humanoids, warforged and the like.
nightside_samurai 08-05-07, 05:37 PM	But they are still imperfect beings. They know that creating a crusade to murder everyone they deem evil will become a greater evil unto itself. Not only that but people will lose faith, trust, and respect in a group that is supposed to uphold the tenets of good. Not many people in the setting want another war, especially not a holy war, and I would guarantee that the second Thrane took up that kind of crusade, every single goverment would have an army waiting at the doorstep to lay the smackdown so that another Mourning doesn't happen. A better alternative would be to allow "harmless" evil to continue to exist, and to even support the cause of good will not only spread the good further but it may "rub off" on the bad guys and cause them to slowly become good. There is no simple solution to the problem of evil people in the church and I don't want their to be quite frankly. The Eberron setting is one of my favorites because of the ambiguity of the alignments. A cleric can even actively work against their own church and continue to receive spells. As a result, religion is largely a matter of faith. Unlike in many other 3rd edition D&D settings, a cleric does not have to be within one step of his deity's or religion's alignment, and is not restricted from casting certain spells because of alignment. That's from the Eberron Wikipedia article about the differences between the setting and other ones. If the Gods, including the Silver Flame, don't care what alignment their clerics are, why should we?
ZappoHisbane 08-05-07, 08:17 PM	Here's a quick quote from the "Ask Keith Baker FAQ Archive (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-287579)": Originally posted by Drss People of the Silver Flames hunts evil. Would Tieflings be considered monsters thus hunted, or are they treated more like the shifters? How "open" are people in Eberron towards tieflings and elemental genasi? A Evil is judged by its actions and consequences, not by "does it register on detect evil". And most people are used to unusual creatures; there are harpy messengers and ogre laborers in Sharn. A tiefling would receive an Unfriendly attitude in Thrane, and a templar might keep an extra close watch on the character, looking for an excuse to call down the wrath of the Flame; but the tiefling would not be attacked by mere virtue of its existence. And if a teifling can get away with it, a human is just fine. Think all the evil thoughts you want in Thrane, just don't go around eating babies, m-kay?
Dragom 08-05-07, 09:27 PM	Just pointing out something. An Evil Cleric of the Silver Flame detects as good 'cause he channels so much positive energy. Indeed the fact he is Evil and channeling the pure holy goodness of the Silver Flame is the very thing that makes Eberron different. An Evil Thrane who has drawn he attention of the Temple is more likely to have one of the many expert grade priests of the Silver Flame drop by and ask politely what is troubling the poor fellow and if he would have something better to do then come by the Temple for the equivilant of kool-aid and oreos while he and a dozen other potential miscreants are coaxed gently back into the fold. It's a funny thing, you can't persecute Evil without forcing it to grow. A man who dodges his taxes rapidly transforms into a murderer and thief when your chasing him across the country side with dogs and armed crossbows.
JulesCARV 08-05-07, 09:36 PM	An evil cleric of the Silver Flame detects good, evil, and lawful. Incidentally, he may detect chaotic as well, if he's chaotic evil. His good and lawful auras will be strongest, though, while the evil aura will be fainter. A CE cleric 5 of the Silver Flame, for instance, has a strong aura of law and good, and faint aura of chaos and evil. An LG paladin 5/cleric 5 of the Blood of Vol, meanwhile, has strong auras of good, evil, and law.
Dragom 08-05-07, 09:53 PM	Now that's just confusing. It's far simpler to say the Divine Aura overpowers the Normal Aura. Making Detect Alignment spells useless if you already knew the person was a devoted cleric of such and such god except of course for verifying the above information. And a Paladin literally, cannot detect as anything but Lawful and Good unless he is stripped of his abilities. Usually he still detects, if only faintly, as Lawful and Good. A Paladin may appear to champion the Blood of Vol, he may even think he champions the Blood of Vol but in all actuality he champions the same things every other Paladin champions. The ability of people to choose to do what is right. To defend the weak, and to challenge acts of evil wherever he finds them.
Alex_ 08-05-07, 09:55 PM	An LG paladin 5/cleric 5 of the Blood of Vol, meanwhile, has strong auras of good, evil, and law. Paladins don't get auras from deities or churches. They only get power from Good, and no matter what institution they served, would register as Lawful Good.
JulesCARV 08-05-07, 10:17 PM	Now that's just confusing. It's far simpler to say the Divine Aura overpowers the Normal Aura. Making Detect Alignment spells useless if you already knew the person was a devoted cleric of such and such god except of course for verifying the above information. So, if you're a disciple of Kol Korran, for instance, does that mean that, regardless of alignment, you have no aura whatsoever? You might rule it that way. Or is it only contradictory auras that are "overridden?" (e.g., if you're an LG cleric of the Sovereign Host, your aura of law isn't suppressed, but if you're an NE cleric of the Sovereign Host, your aura of evil is suppressed.) Overall, I find that this view has some kinks to be worked out, but you could rule it that way. And a Paladin literally, cannot detect as anything but Lawful and Good unless he is stripped of his abilities. Usually he still detects, if only faintly, as Lawful and Good. A Paladin may appear to champion the Blood of Vol, he may even think he champions the Blood of Vol but in all actuality he champions the same things every other Paladin champions. The ability of people to choose to do what is right. To defend the weak, and to challenge acts of evil wherever he finds them. Paladins don't get auras from deities or churches. They only get power from Good, and no matter what institution they served, would register as Lawful Good. Right. An LG paladin 5 only has a strong aura of good from being a paladin and a faint aura of law from being a lawful creature with less than 11 hit dice. Religion is irrelevant. An LG paladin 5/cleric of the Blood of Vol 5, on the other hand, has a strong aura of good from being a paladin, and a strong aura of law and a strong aura of evil from being a cleric of the Blood of Vol. It's a multiclassed character, you see.
Archtyrant Terevoth 08-06-07, 04:02 AM	That's from the Eberron Wikipedia article about the differences between the setting and other ones. If the Gods, including the Silver Flame, don't care what alignment their clerics are, why should we? Well, the question isnt' about why the silver flame doesn't go around randomly executing evil people. We already know the answer to that. But there's a difference between running a crusade, and allowing evil to prosper and be promoted within your own ranks. I mean, detecting as evil means something. It means the guy can't be trusted and will generally serve his own purposes above all else. While you may not consider that reason to kill him, you're probably not going to want that guy running your church. In fact, you'll probably kick him out until he no longer radiates evil anymore. You know give him the whole "you've strayed from the path of righteousness" speech and tell him how he has to prove that he's redeemed (by no longer detecting as evil) before you'll let him keep running the church. That only seems to make sense to me. Regarding Auras: it would be pretty interesting if the strongest aura overpowered the normal aura. Though is there any proof in the rules that this is the case?
Captain_Kobold 08-06-07, 07:32 AM	Evil doesn't mean that a person is automatically untrustworthy. They might just be a little bit more selfish than average. Someone like Cardinal Krozen, who is fairly high-up in the church hierarchy can generally be trusted to further the aims of the Silver Flame simply because doing so furthers his aims as well. He might even refuse most bribes and such, not because he is uncorrupt, but simply because his position and power are worth more to him than what most people could offer in a bribe. Other people in the church might be aware of his slight evil aura, but he may have passed it off as the remnant of a curse, or they simply believe that his long history of serving the Silver Flame should speak for itself. If they were to actually have evidence of him committing an evil act, then they might very well remove him from his posirion while they give him a chance to justify his actions, but until this happens,he is likely to remain. If nothing else, they are probably hoping that he will see the light in time, and change. The Silver Flame's mandate is to destroy supernatural evil. They are likely to simply try to redeem human evil if they can.
Edymnion 08-06-07, 08:51 AM	They've also got a lot of corruption in their midst too, but why? You can ferret out corruption with a couple of simple spells, detect evil and detect magic.They don't have "a lot" of corruption, they have some. They are no more corrupt than any other religion out there, and decidedly less corrupt than some (BoV for example). People blow the Silver Flame corruption entirely out of proportion. The idea was the show that this monolithic force of good wasn't perfect, that it had the same flaws as any organization made up of normal people would have. Its just that overzealous authors and designers REPEATEDLY harp on only the corruption and never freaking portrait the Silver Flame in a good light that makes people think its totally corrupt.Scan a group with detect magic to make sure they don't have any spells like undetectable alignment up. Then use detect evil. The only two spells which thwart this sort of thing are misdirection and nondetection, both of them wizard and not cleric spells. Even still, you can beat those by casting a simple spell on a target. If you can't see it with detect magic, then you know he's shielded. So given that a 1st level cleric has the tools to detect any corruption, why is it that the silver flame (or any good church in Eberron for that matter) has problems with corrupt evil people in its midst?As has already been said, two major flaws with that. The clerics (which are rare) would detect as the alignment of their religion, not their own personal alignment, which would make using that as a tool to ferret out evil doers worthless on clerics. The other major flaw is that Eberron actually uses alignments CORRECTLY. Evil doesn't mean corrupt and greedy baby killing cult worshippers, evil means what it means in the PHB. Someone that doesn't mind stepping on other people to further their own goals. The merchant with weighted scales that cheats his customers for his own profits might register as Evil. The wife thats cheating on her husband for the thrill might register as Evil. The schoolyard bully that beats kids up for their lunch money might register as Evil. Heck, the Silver Flame bishop that thinks its okay to torture someone for information might register as Evil. The point is that just because someone registers as Good doesn't mean that they're upstanding pillars of virtue, and just because someone registers as Evil doesn't mean they are deserving of punishment. I mean, look at the definition of Lawful Evil in the PHB. Someone that is selfish and greedy, but never breaks a single law of the land, and uses the law as a shield to protect themselves. Are you honestly going to say that someone that has never comitted a single crime in their lives, and likely never will never commit a crime deserves some kind of punishment, simply because they like to fantasize about doing bad things all the time? Same as in the Paladin threads, just because someone detects as Evil doesn't mean you have the right to smite them. All it tells you is that they have some darkness in their hearts, it doesn't tell you anything they've done. You still have to actually PROVE that they've done something wrong. Detect Evil is like giving someone a polygraph, asking them every question you can think of, and only have one light that either says True or Lie, that only turns on at the very end. You don't know if they lied about "Did you kill the police officer?" or "Did you stay home all night by yourself that night?". Maybe they're a horrible murdering SOB. Maybe they just went out and hired a hooker that night. You just don't know. At the most, its a general pointer that says "give this guy a second look". But again, when you radiate your faith's alignment, then just because you detect as Good doesn't necissarily mean that you are Good.
Syltorian 08-06-07, 12:25 PM	Well, others have already said quite well what there is to say... but I'll put in my contribution, anyway ;) It essentially gives the answer in the ECS, on page 250 ("Alignment is Unpredictable"). Evil people "don't deserve to be attacked by adventurers" (and adventurers can and should get into trouble for doing so; no Galifaran court is going to accept the fact that he tested positive on a detect evil as an excuse for crime). It is actually pointed out that "more often than not they'll never act on these ["evil"] thoughts". So, your local minister has some impulses on which he never acts. Does that alone make him corrupt? As has been pointed out in this thread and elsewhere, an evil person might still work for a good goal. A Silver Flame cleric might torture a captured lycanthrope to find out where his pack is hiding. If your city is rapidly being infected with lycanthropy, will you defrock this cleric? Do you have a better idea how to find that pack quickly enough, without higher level divinations than Eberron usually has? Also as has been pointed out repeatedly, that cleric might have some evil thoughts, but can still do good on a general basis. So, he refuses to let Cyrans into his city because they might be carrying a taint of the Mourning and lets them starve outside his walls; but he donates a lot of money to orphanages in Thrane, nobody starves in his city because he has organised the food-handouts to the poor well, he even subsidises cures for the poor at Jorasco's; even if only to prevent a plague. Does he deserve to be removed, and replaced by someone utterly good but with no business savy, who might ruin the charities within a year? Archbishop Dariznu in Thaliost might be an unsavoury character who burns many people, but perhaps it's the only way of keeping that city calm at the moment. Remove him, and you have a civil war within the walls within 48 hours, triggering an Aundairian invasion because of Thrane's failure to keep the peace, followed by a Karrnathi 'observation' force and a Thrane counter-strike. You have re-started the Last War all because you removed one evil character and trusted your level 1 spell. High Cardinal Krozen is evil too, grasping and arrogant. But he is effective. Have him removed simply because he is evil, and you've quite likely removed the capstone that keeps Thrane functioning. You'll get infighting for people to get his place, possibly a schism as the Aundairian Puritans see the moderates take even more control, his network which so far has told the Diet of Cardinals what goes on throughout Thrane (Krozen is paranoid, he likely has a good number of spies) breaks down. You've removed what seems to be Thrane's best administrator. Weaker cardinals take over, assisting an exceptional, but still eleven-year old Keeper. It could endanger Thrane and the entire Church to remove him. And if the priest is 'corrupt' in the way that he does not do any good at all, chances are he is mostly occupied putting as much of the Tithe into his own pocket rather than going around and eating babies for fun or plotting with the Lords of Dust. The problem is that detect evil does not tell you what he is doing, and how bad his evil is... if he acts on it at all; maybe there was no real opportunity for him to be evil yet, maybe there never will be. You might want to investigate him. The spell might give you a clue that you should keep an eye on him. But it is not damning proof. It simply could mean too many things - he might be a fanatic but still serving the Church well, he might be an opportunist, or he might be following the Shadow in the Flame. But you just can't tell. So, if your detect evil spell raises your alarm, you'll have to ask yourself: What evil is he doing? Is he merely thinking it, or is he acting on it? What is the alternative? What happens if he is removed? If you decide to do something, it shouldn't be killing the guy, or having him removed. You try to help him get rid of the darkness in their souls; he is not an outsider personifying an alignment, and thus he can be redeemed. Ultimately, everything has consequences, and removing high ups of any alignment has the biggest of all. You might ask how they got so high up if they were evil - well, for one, they might not have been evil then. Krozen himself was a fine young man, according to Five Nations, and turned evil only after the Mourning (contra Forge of War). Other than that, because the Church has a hierarchy of Evil, and knows (however much they dislike it) that occasionally you need to fight a greater evil with a lesser one. Once you've gotten rid of the Lords of Dust, then you could perhaps try and point out to someone like Dariznu that they can stop torturing people now, and wouldn't they want to talk about it. Before that? You might just be sabotaging your own side, and ultimately grant the victory to the enemy because you had your priorities a bit off.
Pinky's brain 08-06-07, 03:20 PM	Someone that doesn't mind stepping on other people to further their own goals.It's not the minding part which makes him evil though, it's the stepping part. Evil implies hurting etc etc ... intent is not a part of the equation. To paraphrase Forest Gump, evil is as evil does. The wife thats cheating on her husband for the thrill might register as Evil. That depends on how well she keeps it a secret ;) If no one gets hurt it's neutral. I think simply saying that the cleric's aura overrides the normal aura is the simplest solution rather than trying to be coy with alignment.
Dragom 08-06-07, 06:40 PM	That depends on how well she keeps it a secret ;) If no one gets hurt it's neutral. The average life expectancy of a lie is very short, unless of course the person you're lying to knowing accepts the lie. And forcing a person to accept a lie and ignore the plain truth just to be with you is fairly evil. It's kind of like fixing a crumbling wall with yarn. Only the wall is their mind and the yarn is their over whelming desire to believe you.
ArcTan 08-06-07, 08:34 PM	They don't have "a lot" of corruption, they have some. They are no more corrupt than any other religion out there, and decidedly less corrupt than some (BoV for example). I disagree that the Blood of Vol is "corrupt". It's actually probably one of the hardest faiths to corrupt, given the extremely harsh way it treats its clergy and the way it encourages the clergy to competitively police each other. A clergyman of the Silver Flame who breaks a law of the Flame is reprimanded, made to do penance, maybe stripped of his rank, but his superiors emphasize tolerance, patience and forgiveness for his crimes -- he must always at least be given some chance to redeem himself. A Blood of Vol priest who has compromised the goals of the Blood of Vol through venal weakness or alliance with an enemy or general petty corruption -- who *weakens the faith* -- can and will be executed instantly upon being discovered. The Blood of Vol isn't very corrupt. It is Evil. But that's not a "corruption" -- that's what it's about.
Archtyrant Terevoth 08-07-07, 12:45 AM	The clerics (which are rare) would detect as the alignment of their religion, not their own personal alignment, which would make using that as a tool to ferret out evil doers worthless on clerics. Actually I'm not convinced of this. While it's true that clerics do radiate the alignment of their deity, there's nothing saying that this replaces their original alignment aura either. So an LE silver flame worshipper would detect as being lawful, evil and good, depending on what spell you used. It seems it's possible to radiate two auras at once. For instance an evil outsider who reformed to LG who took a level of paladin would radiate as both evil and good. Evil because it still has the [evil] subtype, and good because of the paladin's aura of good and its own new alignment. At least that's how I read the rules. It's possible I overlooked something there, so if anyone has a more concrete ruling there, be it sage advice or FAQ information, then I'd like to hear it, as that would definitely explain a lot about how corrupt characters can stay unexposed if they radiate only the alignment of their faith and not their true alignment at all. Really, if anyone has anything to further enlighten that rules subject, I'd like to hear it, as it would make a big difference here. The point is that just because someone registers as Good doesn't mean that they're upstanding pillars of virtue, and just because someone registers as Evil doesn't mean they are deserving of punishment. I mean, look at the definition of Lawful Evil in the PHB. Someone that is selfish and greedy, but never breaks a single law of the land, and uses the law as a shield to protect themselves. Are you honestly going to say that someone that has never comitted a single crime in their lives, and likely never will never commit a crime deserves some kind of punishment, simply because they like to fantasize about doing bad things all the time? Well no, evil isn't about fantasizing, it's actually about action. You get your evil alignment by performing evil actions. And the silver flame is all about eradicating evil from the world. Now again, this isn't saying that the church can go around slaughtering these guys, the church is smarter than that. Much of Eberron is politics and it's going to lose a lot of followers if it goes on an oppressive crusade of destruction. But having evil guys within the top of your hierarchy can be a really bad thing. Same as in the Paladin threads, just because someone detects as Evil doesn't mean you have the right to smite them. All it tells you is that they have some darkness in their hearts, it doesn't tell you anything they've done. You still have to actually PROVE that they've done something wrong. I'm not sure why you need to "prove" anything. This isn't a court of law, nor are you actually charging them with any crime. Silver Flame dogma says that evil is bad. Detect evil reveals that they are in fact evil. Really, that's all you need. This is a matter of religion, it's never taken before a judge and doesn't require a significant amount of evidence beyond what the spell (granted by the flame itself) tells you. Think the Salem witch trials, only there's a magic witch detector.
Hellcow 08-07-07, 04:49 AM	I disagree that the Blood of Vol is "corrupt". Personally, I'm with Edy here. The RELIGION isn't corrupt. But I'd say the percentage of corrupt priests and authority figures in it is about the same as the CotSF... thanks to Erandis d'Vol. Essentially, ERANDIS is a corrupt priest, because she's more interested in promoting her own agenda that fulfilling the cause of the faith. Those priests and champions who serve her over the interests of the faith are, IMO, corrupt. It may not show in the same way. They aren't taking bribes or anything like that. But many "corrupt" priests of the Silver Flame aren't taking bribes either; instead, they could be pursuing their duties in an overzealous manner that contradicts the tenets of the faith... like killing all people who detect as evil, for example. So sure, the priest who takes the blood of his congregation and sells it to House Jorasco for a quick platinum piece (not that there's a market for this, just saying) would, as you say, be dealt with quite harshly if caught. But a vampire knight who happens to be putting Erandis' goals ahead of his supposed quest to guide worshippers to enlightenment or combat death may not be seen as corrupt - but he's still claiming to follow a faith without abiding by its tenets.
Hellcow 08-07-07, 04:56 AM	Personally, I like to say that when a person has two auras, the more powerful one drowns out the weaker - so a good priest of the BoV will have an evil aura, an evil priest of the SF will have a good aura, and a powerful undead creature will show up as evil unless his class levels outweigh his HD, regardless of alignment (as I read the DE table, undead shows up as evil regardless of alignment). The way I play it, that more powerful aura is your aura for purposes of ALL magical effects that interact with alignment - so that evil priest of the CotSF will be affected by an unholy word, but isn't blasted by a holy word. But that's very much a house rule, and one that has a serious consequences. I'm not recommending it, and you certainly won't see it in any sourcebook. But what I like about it is that it does help address the issue of evil priests - including the weird idea of an evil priest of a good religion blasting himself with his own holy word. Again, though, I'm certainly not suggesting that anyone else play this way.
Hopeless 08-07-07, 06:54 AM	Okay, the Silver flame is a force for good. They want to purge evil from the land and all that. They've also got a lot of corruption in their midst too, but why? You can ferret out corruption with a couple of simple spells, detect evil and detect magic. Scan a group with detect magic to make sure they don't have any spells like undetectable alignment up. Then use detect evil. The only two spells which thwart this sort of thing are misdirection and nondetection, both of them wizard and not cleric spells. Even still, you can beat those by casting a simple spell on a target. If you can't see it with detect magic, then you know he's shielded. So given that a 1st level cleric has the tools to detect any corruption, why is it that the silver flame (or any good church in Eberron for that matter) has problems with corrupt evil people in its midst? This can be handled a number of ways, the easiest as far as i can see it is dependent on the morla scruples of the cleric themselves. Essentially they cast the spell and as long as there's noone in range either a member of a faith that is a noted enemy of theirs then it picks up nothing. The there's the fact it will only pick them up if they're a cleric or paladin of high level, perhaps an extradimensional fiend out in the open and not hiding or quite simply because if the target isn't the remotest bit interested in doing any evil at that time will therefore not show up after all its really only supposed to give them an insight or perhaps better described as a hostility detector conditioned towards some imagined idea of what is evil and the dm's concept is what governs the game... I've played in games where the dm later said the goblin was irrevocably evil to clear the paladin's player from an act of cold blooded (and cowardly) murder and then promptly forgot the act was commited inside the goblin's lair which should have been subsequently so filled with evil remaints that the paladin's ability shouldn't have worked (he tracked them down through an obscuring mist using his detect evil ability). So I suspect what the dm says is what goes...
Hopeless 08-07-07, 06:59 AM	But the silver flame's basic tenets are to destroy evil. It's okay to kill someone simply because they're evil. That's how they got into such trouble wiping out the shifters, because someone decided to up and label all shifters as evil and worthy of destruction. Now, imagine what happens if you've got a detect evil spell directly telling you someone is evil. I can certainly understand why they may not be able to kill every evil person due to local laws, but there's no reason to have evil people in their church hierarchy ever. I suspect this where they believe using a lesser evil to defeat a greater evil is approved. However I suspect this is better explained that they're supposed to be trying to redeem those where they can and they're overlooking prejudice and bigotry which the current leader is trying to correct but very slowly because I suspect the leadership of the Silver Flame was usurped for a while. Why i think that? A little thing about the lycanthrope purge, there was no way the Speaker of the flame would have allowed that purge to go out of control so I suspect they were either killed and replaced by a double until a new speaker was chosen and thats why things are as they are. Okay thats what I think happened.
Dragom 08-07-07, 11:34 AM	The Silver Flame didn't purge the Lycanthropes because they where evil. Many types of lycanthropes are good, and turn the people they infect good. They could have only purged the evil Lycanthropes and all of Khorvaire could know by adamantly good. But does it really count you know... Seeing as they masses of level 1 commoner werebears never had a choice to do good. They where infected and they just had to do good ever after? Lycanthopy was purged BECAUSE it forces an alignment change. A desease of the soul, that consumes all you where and replaces it with something else. The purge was about protecting souls. Not erradicating evil.
Edymnion 08-07-07, 12:17 PM	I disagree that the Blood of Vol is "corrupt". Last time I checked, it was being led by Vol for her own personal goals that have nothing to do with the religion itself, which she is using for the express purpose of maintaining her power base. The average BoV worshipper does not know this. Erandis did not found the Blood of Vol religion. Almost if not all of the high ranking officials know of Vol, and are complicit. I would call that corruption.Well no, evil isn't about fantasizing, it's actually about action. You get your evil alignment by performing evil actions. See, thats where I dissagree. Intent is every bit as important to alignment as action, as alignment is a reflection of how your character sees the world. A Lawful Evil character under the threat of death if they ever do anything evil again (lets just assume some sort of modified Gaeas that would just outright kill them if they ever performed an evil act) would not magically turn Good, or even Neutral just because they stopped doing evil things. They still WANT to eat babies and kick puppies, they just don't do it under threat of punishment. They still don't respect anyone's right to life, they don't go out of their way to help people, and if left to their own devices would be actively hurting people. Or, to use a more mundane analogy, does chaining someone to the wall change their alignment? Chained to where they can't move, gagged so they can't speak, they can't take any actions of any kind. Does that mean they immediantly go to Neutral? In my book, your intent and what you think is actually MORE important to your alignment than your actions.
Hellcow 08-07-07, 01:06 PM	I wrote this last night juuuust before the boards went down, so I'll go ahead and post it and then touch on a few of the more recent posts. Then I'll bug off, because it's not remotely my intent to say "I HAVE SPOKEN! THE CONVERSATION IS CLOSED!" - I'm just expressing my opinion as a fellow gamer and someone who has strong opinions on the Silver Flame. A few more things to consider: as the Dragonshards say, while the Silver Flame opposes evil, their definition of it isn't "That which is detected by detect evil" They are concerned with evil DEEDS, and one of the core principles of Eberron is that evil people can do good and good people can do evil. If you're murdering babies and somehow managing to accomplish that while maintaining a good alignment, the paladin won't say "Well, you don't detect as evil, it must be OK." Likewise, if you do detect as evil but you're actively doing good – which would be the case with quite a few evil priests of the Silver Flame – then you bear watching, but you're not in line for execution. The way I see it is like Star Wars – "There is much anger in that one." Yoda is concerned about the darkness he senses in Luke – but he doesn't whip out a lightsaber and kill him. He simply has misgivings, and hopes that Luke can overcome that darkness. This (in my mind) is the real key to the Silver Flame… the belief that people CAN overcome their own darkness, that they can be redeemed and brought to the light. Earlier, the hierarchy of evil from Faiths of Eberron was quoted… but only in brief. Take another look at the full quote: Those who choose evil. This includes all evil humanoids, warforged, and the like. Though the cliché of the Purified shows no mercy to evildoers, most real followers of the Flame seek to save those people, not destroy them. Human evil should be fought with compassion, diplomacy, and leading by example. Whenever possible, people should be shown the error of their ways and have the chance to correct their behavior. If this is not possible, the sword might be the only answer; it should never be the first choice, however. Aside from the general principle, note also the words "evildoers" and "behavior". Again, this is first and foremost dealing with people who DO evil, regardless of their actual alignment. Simply having an evil alignment essential falls under "the evil within", all the way at the bottom of the hierarchy of evil, and here nothing is said about killing; it's purely a matter of purging the desire to do evil from our hearts. The goal of the Purified is to protect the innocent, and this includes misguided humans; all innocent souls can be purified. You may say "Does this mean that as a paladin of the Silver Flame I can't kill the monk of the Mockery – I have to try to redeem him?" Probably not. The HoE says that the sword should never be the first choice, but that it may be the only answer. It becomes a judgment call for you: if you believe that the person cannot be redeemed and that trying to subdue him would endanger the lives of other innocents, you need to act in the interests of the greater good. If you don't consider these things at all and kill when you COULD redeem, then you are on your own path to corruption – you're straying from the intent of the faith.
Hellcow 08-07-07, 01:17 PM	Well no, evil isn't about fantasizing, it's actually about action. You get your evil alignment by performing evil actions. Not in Eberron. One of the core principles of Eberron is that evil people can do good, and that good people can do evil. Yes, good lycanthropes were killed in the Purge - objectively an evil act. But the templars doing the killing were good people. Aside from the fact that they didn't KNOW the lycanthropes were "good", even if they had, they would have believed that they were serving a greater good by killing them. The key quote comes from page 250 of the Eberron Campaign Setting: An Eberron campaign should challenge any preconceived notions of alignment the PCs may have. In a few cases, things are truly black and white, but more often than not, the world should be colored in shades of grey. It's not as simple as "evil people always do bad things". Evil people have different motivations for what they do. Evil people are more likely to be self-centered and cruel. But just because a person has a streak of cruelty doesn't mean they will ever torture someone. In another setting, they might even be considered neutral, but because of Eberron's desire to paint alignment in more shades of grey, neutrality is narrowed - thus you have "evil" people who may never have DONE anything evil.
Hellcow 08-07-07, 01:56 PM	The Silver Flame didn't purge the Lycanthropes because they were evil. Many types of lycanthropes are good, and turn the people they infect good. Though a "good" lycanthrope and a "good" human are two very different things. An evil lycanthrope is driven to murder other intelligent beings. A good lycanthrope is driven to avoid them, and to avoid civilization. By and large (though certainly with a few exceptions), they don't all become paladins. With that said... Lycanthopy was purged BECAUSE it forces an alignment change. A desease of the soul, that consumes all you where and replaces it with something else... The purge was about protecting souls. Not erradicating evil. That's the way I see it. There's also the fact that evil lycanthropy was spreading in an unusual manner and at a dangerous rate, and people were dying. Immediate action was required. The church didn't understand why it had become more contagious (allowing afflicted lycanthropes to spread it), and if it was going to get worse. So they weren't concerned with "is this guy good or evil", and they still aren't. They consider lycanthropy to be a dangerous affliction that transforms the soul, which is why it's #2 on the Hierarchy of Evil. Again, the lycanthrope may not have an evil alignment - but in the eyes of the church, lycanthropy itself is evil. With that said, terrible things happened during the Purge. Some of these were the fault of the Church. Many were the fault of the evil 'thropes, who after all, take special pleasure in killing their own kind. It's not just that people happened to say "Hey, maybe the shifters are bad"; many shifter 'thropes intentionally caused the confusion to cause a rift between the two and cause further chaos and bloodshed. If the Silver Flame is fighting the shifters as a race, they aren't fighting the 'thropes. This wasn't an accident; it was a calculated action on the part of clever 'thropes. Many of the worst attrocities occured during the last decade of the Purge. In the beginning, it was a bitter struggle with the balance against the templars, since you're dealing with supernatural creatures who can spread the infection with a bite against a force largely made up of 1st and 2nd level warriors. The tide did turn, and the last decade was closer to the witch hunt many people iamgine it to be. But by that point, the majority of the people carrying out the Purge were Aundairian converts, the ancestors of the modern zealots. These people had been living under the shadow of lycanthropy for decades. They had lost family, been driving from their lands; they were out for revenge, not justice. Lynch mob mentality at its worst. At this stage, it's not about the Keeper or the principles of the Flame; it's about human nature, and much of the worst of it came to the fore here. Was the Keeper influenced by evil? Was he an imposter... or simply listening to the Whisperer in the Flame, the dark force that does threaten even the most devoted follower? Maybe; that's up to the DM to decide. The Purge Dragonshard (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050404a) notes that Keeper Jolan Sol saw it as an opportunity to strengthen the faith in Aundair, and it certainly did that. Of course, the result was the Servants of the Pure Flame (AKA Puritans), the most zealous sect and the one most likely to indulge in morally questionable actions in the name of the faith. Political manuevering? Long-term scheming by a Lord of Dust, whose knowledge of the Prophecy allowed him to create a splinter faith that tarnishes the values of the Silver Flame? The dark voice within the Flame itself? Any of these things are possible. I'm going to do my best to step back out of the discussion now, and I hope it will continue - despite my strong opinions on this subject, your game is your game. However, I will reiterate that the Silver Flame has no monopoly on religious corruption, and it's hardly rampant; the vast majority of followers are good people who hold to the values of the faith. There's just as much corruption among priests of the Sovereign Host - in all likelihood, more. The issue is that because the Silver Flame places great weight on doing good, it's a more serious concern for them - far more so than the priests of Olladra or Kol Korran. There's no force policing the priests of the Sovereign Host; sure, a paladin of Dol Arrah might take a corrupt priest to task, but lacking the structure of the Church of the Silver Flame, said priest might never even be noticed. The Sovereign Host makes no promise to erradicate human evil. Aureon may call on people to enforce the law, but his priests aren't charged to eliminate the source. Dol Arrah is ultimately a war goddess who charges her paladins to fight evil, but they aren't as concerned with using compassion to guide misguided people to the light (though hey, it's always a nice thing to do). So yes, there is corruption in the CotSF, but that doesn't make it rampant; the point is just that while this is a faith dedicated to doing good, not everyone within it lives up to its standards. OK, NOW I'll bug off. Talk amongst yourselves. ;)
Pinky's brain 08-07-07, 03:43 PM	The key quotes might come from page 250, but they don't come close to saying what you did here. You are retconning :) PS. why not a Dragonshard on your intended (but non codified) system of alignment, with books like BoED out there with hard rules for how alignments work in D&D something like page 250 just doesn't cut it IMO. PPS. maybe one which works out some of the kinks in internal consistency too (for instance teleportation circles and the assembly line construction of elemental vehicles even though they require very high level casters).
Hellcow 08-07-07, 07:08 PM	The key quotes might come from page 250, but they don't come close to saying what you did here. You are retconning :) I'd beg to differ... In a world where characters have access to magic such as detect evil, it's important to keep in mind that evil people aren't alway killers, criminals, or demon worshippers. They might be selfish and cruel, always putting their interests above those of others, but they don't deserve to be attacked by adventurers. The self-centered advocate is lawful evil, and the cruel innkeeper is neutral evil. Either one might think about poisoning heroes and taking their possessions, but more often than not they'll never act on these thoughts. So, the greedy lawyer is evil. He's willing to defend anyone as long as he makes a buck. And yes, when he sees a bunch of adventurers glittering with gear, he'll think "Man, I could get me a piece of that." But he never will. The fact that he THINKS it is part of what makes him evil. But it doesn't mean that he'll ever do it. Now, you may be refering to my phrase that good people can do evil and evil can do good. You're correct in that this exact QUOTE isn't in the ECS... but examples of it can be found throughout. Evil King Kaius is an active force in promoting peace, while good Queen Aurala is interested in war. The good Church of the Silver Flame nonetheless did kill many innocent shifters and lycanthropes during the purge. The evil Inspired are loved by their people and have in fact created a stable and secure civilization for them. The goblins seized land from Cyre, but humans stole it from their ancestors (and enslaved them) long ago. The dragons stopped the giants from destroying the world, but in the process massacred countless elves and other civilizations of Xen'drik. Good people fought good people during the Last War; no nation was in the right there. Page 250 may not spell it out, because it's only got a few paragraphs to work with. But when it says "An Eberron campaign should challenge any preconceived notions of alignment the PCs may have.... more often than not, the world should be colored in shades of gray", this is what it's refering to. PS. why not a Dragonshard on your intended (but non codified) system of alignment). It's possible. With that said, it's a subject that does appear in some of the Dragonshards... The idea that good people can do evil and that evil people can serve the cause of good is a central theme of Eberron. The Church of the Silver Flame embraces this paradox. It has a noble cause. The majority of its followers champion the ways of the light. And yet, with the best of intentions, they can become your enemies -- or you may be asked to do questionable things in the service of the Church. ... And bear in mind that BoVD and BoED are non-core books; you may find a place for them in Eberron, but they aren't assumed to be a part of it automatically. Personally, I don't use them. ... Maybe one which works out some of the kinks in internal consistency too (for instance teleportation circles and the assembly line construction of elemental vehicles even though they require very high level casters). I'm not sure I follow. The construction of elemental vehicles isn't actually an assembly line process, in my opinion; there aren't actually that many of them. House Cannith does use organized assembly techniques for some things, but these are largely wondrous locations, like the creation forges. As for teleportation circles, where have you found them? I've never wanted teleportation circles in Khorvaire; it's far beyond the level of common magic I see them having. The only form of commercial teleportation is House Orien, and that's not exactly common or cheap; you need to hope there's an Orien enclave, a greater heir on hand in the enclave, and that he hasn't used his charge for the day. There are teleportation circles in Riedra, but that's because the Inspired have very high-level manifesters... and even those are tied to the hanbalani. If I've missed something about teleportation circles in one of the sourcebooks (and perhaps I have), please point me to it, because IMO that is an error and I would like to follow up on it with WotC.
Pinky's brain 08-07-07, 08:28 PM	Never isn't the only adjective ... "more often than not" can refer to both the NPCs (ie. the majority of evil NPCs never act on evil thoughts) and the thoughts (evil thoughts are never acted upon more often than not, which is to say they sometimes still are). I'd even go as far as to say that the second interpretation is the most natural, because the first requires you to semi-ignore the sentence was only talking about two specific types of evil NPCs before. BoED is non core, but it is generic and the only really good description there is apart from evil implying hurting, killing etc (which you don't seem to agree with either). The problem with teleportation circles is that if you have NPCs around which can bind huge elementals into elemental vessels you have characters around which can create permanent teleportation circles (takes a 15th level artificer ... or a 14th level one with an orange ioun stone). If available teleportation circles simply make far more sense to create ;) (Of course they are far worse for storytelling and campaign flair ... teleportation has that problem in general).
JulesCARV 08-07-07, 09:53 PM	Occassionally, corruption in the Blood of Vol might be from good priests who let their common sense and decency override the Blood of Vol's doctrines. For instance, the Blood of Vol might have a directive like "never waste the church's resources on those who are not of the faith. Only help Seekers." A corrupt priest of the Blood of Vol might bend or break the rules because a couple of his faithful congregants have a teenaged son who's going through a phase of rebellion and has renounced his parents' faith, and just recently fallen ill with some very nasty illness. A priest who abides by the rules would say "I can't help so long as your son isn't of the faith," but a corrupt, good priest might bend the rules and try to help.
ArcTan 08-07-07, 11:38 PM	Last time I checked, it was being led by Vol for her own personal goals that have nothing to do with the religion itself Don't they? You honestly think she has no religious beliefs of her own? That she doesn't honestly believe in the Divinity Within and the pursuit of immortality and shrieking defiance at the natural order? which she is using for the express purpose of maintaining her power base. Six of one. "Maintaining your power base" is not a necessarily corrupt thing to do. Jaela Daran uses the Church of the Silver Flame to maintain her power base. Is she corrupt? The average BoV worshipper does not know this. But it's still in line with what they believe. They wouldn't be surprised by it. Erandis d'Vol was *able* to use the ancient Qalbarin rituals for her purposes because they fit her own philosophy -- she even basically matches the figure of the "Queen of the Dead" the ancient Qalbarin talked about. Erandis did not found the Blood of Vol religion. Jaela Daran didn't found the Church of the Silver Flame. Almost if not all of the high ranking officials know of Vol, and are complicit. I would call that corruption. Almost all of the high-ranking officials of the Church of the Silver Flame know of Jaela Daran, and are "complicit". Where did you get the idea that all the BoV Seekers would rise up in arms if they knew about Erandis d'Vol, and scream with horror that they'd been used by an extremely powerful, ambitious Lich who wants the secret of true resurrection and true immortality and to change the face of Khorvaire? That's exactly the kind of thing the religion *encourages*. The religion is also the kind of religion that encourages keeping secrets from your underlings and using those less powerful than you for your own purposes. Honesty is not a virtue in the Blood of Vol. There's no reason anyone in the sick little hierarchy of the BoV would be surprised that there's someone at the top pulling the strings. Most of them probably suspect it. If and when Erandis d'Vol shows herself, it will be at a time and place where they welcome her as the prophesied Queen of the Dead. No one as smart or as powerful as she is, I again emphasize, would purposely create a religion opposed to her own goals, where recruitment is always a risk because the religion would order her destroyed if they knew who and what she was. That's, in fact, the kind of game King Kaius is playing, and he's playing it because he has to, and it's a game that hampers his movements and puts him at constant risk. Erandis would never choose such a thing for herself -- the alternative, a religion that teaches people to believe *what she herself believes*, is so much easier. That's pretty obviously why the FoE author took the BoV in the direction he did.
Hellcow 08-08-07, 12:15 AM	Never isn't the only adjective ... "more often than not" can refer to both the NPCs (ie. the majority of evil NPCs never act on evil thoughts) and the thoughts (evil thoughts are never acted upon more often than not, which is to say they sometimes still are). Certainly. But let's look at the advocate. The issue is that the idea of poisoning you and taking your stuff isn't repellent to him. He might look at you and say "What cool stuff they have." But he has no experience with poison. He knows that if he tried to poison you and failed, things would be really bad; even if he suceeds, he might be captured by the law and lose his very successful business. Ditto for the innkeeper. He COULD kill you and take your stuff, but if people started to notice a string of disappearances, his business would be ruined... and he doesn't have any real good ideas about disposing of bodies, doesn't know any fences, and so on. The innkeeper's not a nice man. But he's not a murderer - and one reason he's not a murderer is because it's in his own self-interest not to be. If you said "I'm offering you a 100% risk-free, no-effort way to kill this PC and take his immense wealth for your own", he might do it. But in real life, the odds of having such an easy, risk-free opportunity are minimal - hence the word "never". Yes, of course sometimes people act on their evil thoughts. There ARE serial killers in Eberron, successful criminals, gang bosses, and so on. But there are many, many people who are evil in alignment but don't ever commit truly heinous acts. It may be unclear, and alignment is something people can (and will) debate for ages to come. But as the guy who wrote that paragraph, it's what I intended... even if I may have done a poor job of conveying the idea. There are evil people who do evil deeds... and there are also people evil in thought but less so in action. Both innkeeper and advocate do evil deeds; the innkeeper pads the bill and waters down the ale, and the advocate works for the Boramar Clan and specializes in the geting their killers off the hook. Bad things - but neither man is a murderer. Aside from this, there's the fact that in Eberron, many deeds can be both good and evil. Kaius wants peace - a good thing that could ultimately save the lives of tens of thousands of people - but he's willing to torture, murder, and massacre to get it, which is why he's evil instead of good. His overall GOALS are good, but because of his outlook on the world and the methods he will employ without remorse (or simply order to be employed), he himself is evil. So no, I don't subscribe to the idea that actions alone make you evil; like Edy said, I don't think the guy chained to a wall becomes neutral just because he's failing to act. However, I JUST went on at great length about alignment on this thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=13342720#post13342720), and if I keep going here I'm just going to be repeating myself - so I'm going to do my best to resist the urge to continue to discuss it. Please carry on without me - if I don't respond it's not that I'm ignoring you, it's just that it's one of those subjects that never ends, and I need to focus on actually writing new stuff for Eberron. ;)
Hellcow 08-08-07, 01:21 AM	The problem with teleportation circles is that if you have NPCs around which can bind huge elementals into elemental vessels you have characters around which can create permanent teleportation circles (takes a 15th level artificer ... or a 14th level one with an orange ioun stone). If available teleportation circles simply make far more sense to create ;) AH! Got it. So they don't exist, but you're curious WHY they don't exist. Two reasons: not enough high level casters, and no one's managed to figure out how to do it. Casters first. It takes a 15th-level artificer. By the demographics table, the highest level artificer you could possibly find is a 14th level artificer in an Aundairian metropolis. According to James Wyatt's breakdown for Sharn, the highest level artificer there is 11th level. Most high-level magic is accomplished using eldritch machines which let multiple low-level characters combine their skills over an extended period of time to produce higher-level results... but only to produce a very specific type of thing. A creation forge creates warforged; you can't use it to make iron golems. And the warforged themselves were a project developed over the course of decades, and requiring the innovation of a brilliant man. Which brings us to the second point: Innovation. In Eberron, magic is treated as a science. Which means that things aren't always possible. We can imagine nanobots and zero point energy, but we haven't managed to make them work. Eberron operates on the same principles. If something is being done, people know how to replicate it. But introducing something entirely new - like mass teleportation - requires a scientific breakthrough like any other form of science. Note that it took the Zil 179 years to make the leap from lightning rail to airship. It's not that they weren't trying; it's that it took that amount of time to figure out the support ring, the aerodynamics, devorcing the vehcile from the conductor stones, and so on. The reason House Sivis' speaking stone network hasn't been replaced by use-activated sending items (iSend) is because no artificer has managed to crack the sending puzzle. Tasker's Dream - the Sivis think tank is working on it, along with psionic techniques. You can be certain House Orien has been working on mass teleportation for ages - but they haven't broken it yet. What does this mean for PCs? That's up to the DM. PCs are exceptional people. Perhaps the PC artificer CAN create whatever he wants, solving puzzles that have baffled others for centuries. The DM can impose restrictions; "You can make a sending item, but not teleportation." Or, it can be part of an adventure. The giants of Xen'drik had a teleportation network. You can't just steal theirs; it's not that simple (this is discussed in more detail in this thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=13336617#post13336617). But perhaps studying a giant teleportation system - or even retaining its essence - will help a PC learn how to make his own. Hence it becomes an adventure as opposed to simply "I want this." The same principle can also apply to non-core spells - especially spells that should have a major impact on the setting, such as the BoVD's screw possessor spells as a weapon against quori. You can choose not to allow them - or you can make learning them an adventure in itself (something discussed in Secrets of Sarlona, Secrets of Xen'drik, and Dragons of Eberron). But the short form: magic is a science, and as such innovation takes time and genius. Certain principles have been established; others remain a mystery. The Zil know how to bind elementals and have magical tools to assist with these tasks; they have no idea how to make a teleportation circle. I don't know if it's worth a Dragonshard on its own, but perhaps there's more that can be done with it.
Pinky's brain 08-08-07, 11:20 AM	Two reasons: not enough high level castersWhich brings us back to the elemental vessels, eldritch machines can solve the problem ... but the fluff text concerning their creation mentions only actual binders and no eldritch machines. If Eldritch machines are the answer here then perhaps that should be mentioned some time. You can be certain House Orien has been working on mass teleportation for ages - but they haven't broken it yet. Spells in core can be taken without research, this is core (see any of the caster class descriptions). A campaign specific rule to declare it an uncommon spell is fine, but something like that should be written down. Unlike the alignment stuff it's an easy enough thing to houserule as a DM ... but the fact that houserules can fix things is never an excuse. But the short form: magic is a science, and as such innovation takes time and genius. True, but core is core ... adding to it is no problem, but where you change or subtract it should be mentioned. I don't know if it's worth a Dragonshard on its own No, it's just one of those things where it's clear that the best way to make the fluff work is to change the core RAW (just like arguably with alignment) or to clarify which common conceptions just aren't true in Eberron (ie. seeking to fight people you know are good aligned and killing them in combat can be a non-evil act ... something which is diametrically opposed to BoED for instance, where the only excuse for such a thing is self defense).
Edymnion 08-08-07, 12:23 PM	Don't they? You honestly think she has no religious beliefs of her own? That she doesn't honestly believe in the Divinity Within and the pursuit of immortality and shrieking defiance at the natural order?No, I have seen no evidence that Erandis believes in the religion at all, that she is just using it as a convenient and effective front.Six of one. "Maintaining your power base" is not a necessarily corrupt thing to do. Jaela Daran uses the Church of the Silver Flame to maintain her power base. Is she corrupt?Is Jaela using the religion only for the express purpose of serving her? Or is she actually trying to follow the tennets of the faith and lead the church as best she can, without regards to her own personal power and profit? I'd say Jaela actually believes in the power of the Flame, and wants what is best for the religion, not just herself. So no, Jaela is not corrupt.Jaela Daran didn't found the Church of the Silver Flame.No one said she did. Look back at the post I was quoting. The implication they were making was that Erandis d'Vol was the founder of the Blood of Vol, I was correcting that mistake.Almost all of the high-ranking officials of the Church of the Silver Flame know of Jaela Daran, and are "complicit".Of course, Jaela is an open, public figure. She isn't hiding in the shadows twisting the actions of her followers to serve her own dark ends. The high ranking officials of the Blood of Vol do know that is what Vol is doing, and go along with it, not out of their faith but their own personal greed for wealth and power.Where did you get the idea that all the BoV Seekers would rise up in arms if they knew about Erandis d'Vol, and scream with horror that they'd been used by an extremely powerful, ambitious Lich who wants the secret of true resurrection and true immortality and to change the face of Khorvaire? That's exactly the kind of thing the religion *encourages*.They wouldn't rise up for that, because thats not whats happening. They would rise up when they found out that there was a scheming evil manipulator that has been manipulating the faith for her own personal gain without regards to the well-being of the followers. They would rise up against the head of a terrorist organization that wantonly kills innocent people to get what they want.The religion is also the kind of religion that encourages keeping secrets from your underlings and using those less powerful than you for your own purposes. Honesty is not a virtue in the Blood of Vol. There's no reason anyone in the sick little hierarchy of the BoV would be surprised that there's someone at the top pulling the strings.And just where do you get that notion from? I don't recall anything saying that the BoV followers would lie, cheat, and steal from anyone they wanted. No one as smart or as powerful as she is, I again emphasize, would purposely create a religion opposed to her own goals, where recruitment is always a risk because the religion would order her destroyed if they knew who and what she was.And again, Erandis d'Vol did not create the religion any more than Jaela created the Silver Flame, she is just the current head of the religion. Look to the real world. In the middle ages, Popes declared war on the middle east purely because of the financial, political, and military gains it would give them. However, they didn't tell their followers "We want you to go burn these guys so we can take all their land and money", they cloaked the reasons in "defending the holy land" and "driving out the infidels". And these were public figures. Do you honestly think that if there had been a secret Super-Pope pulling the strings, and that the general population got wind of the fact that they were fighting and dying just to line his pockets, that they would have just accepted it and kept on fighting? That's, in fact, the kind of game King Kaius is playing, and he's playing it because he has to, and it's a game that hampers his movements and puts him at constant risk. Erandis would never choose such a thing for herself -- the alternative, a religion that teaches people to believe *what she herself believes*, is so much easier. That's pretty obviously why the FoE author took the BoV in the direction he did.Yeah, Vol is doing exactly the same thing Kaius is doing. She's controlling things from behind the scenes (Kaius hides behind pretending to be Kaius III), except that Kaius actually wants what is best for his country. He's not driving his nation back to war just so he can be made king of a reunited galifar regardless of what it does to his people, he's trying to save his own country from destruction. Vol is playing the same game, but from the opposite angle. She's hiding behind her religion, and actively abusing it for her own gains.
The Dreaming Duck 08-08-07, 01:40 PM	Which brings us back to the elemental vessels, eldritch machines can solve the problem ... but the fluff text concerning their creation mentions only actual binders and no eldritch machines. If Eldritch machines are the answer here then perhaps that should be mentioned some time. Personally, I don't want to see a dragonshard on this. It's fluff. It's never bothered me. The overall "flavor" of Eberron is turn-of-the-century tech. We have telegraphs, not phones. We have railroads, but few cars. We have just begun to master air travel. Why don't we have teleportation circles? Because they are a HUGE shift in that level of what's possible. Personally, I don't care that an airship is almost as difficult to make as a teleportation circle. The whole point of items like the eldritch machine is that they are plot devices - things which break the rules and let the DM do what he wants to do. As such, "it's an eldritch machine" is fine with me. I would rather see Dragonshards dealing with things the main material hasn't covered - the War of the Mark, the fringe nations of Khorvaire, Rakshasa Rajahs, the Aurum, and so on than to justify a minor inconsistency based on the overall assumptions. Spells in core can be taken without research, this is core (see any of the caster class descriptions). I think you're misinterpreted what Hellcow said... "The same principle can also apply to non-core spells." Use of ANY non-core spell is optional on the part of the DM. The later mention of the possessor spells from the BoVD is a critical example. Those spells weren't designed with Eberron in mind, and allowing them into the game completely alters the dynamic with the Quori. Same thing with the Warshaper PrC and changelings: the two weren't designed to be compatable. Just look to page 9 of the ECS: A monster or spell or magic item from the core rulebooks might feature a twist or two to account for Eberron's tone and attitude, but otherwise everything in the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual has a place somewhere in Eberron. CORE RULEBOOKS. So no promise is made about Heroes of Horror, Races of the Wild, or The Book of Vile Darkness. Use of those books is optional, like it is in any setting. Hellcow said that non-core spells would require special research, if it was even possible to learn them - something that Eberron itself supports right there in "Ten Things You Need To Know About Eberron." Furthermore, the quote already says that magic items might "feature a twist or two to account for Eberron's tone and attitude." So back to the earlier point, I don't need to know why there are no teleportation circle items. There aren't any because it doesn't fit the tone or attitude. Now, you may have simple meant "Nothing's stopping a player character from learning teleportation circles and making his own." I don't believe Hellcow was arguing against that: he was talking about creating magic items that are not specifically present in the DMG. The item creation tables are present as guidelines, because it is possible to use them to create things that are clearly unbalanced when set against existing items (especially use-activated objects with no charges). I don't believe he was saying that you'd need to do special research to learn to make a wand of fireballs; that's a core item. But saying "I want to make a command word object with two charges a day that casts fireball" - final cost? 10,800 gp, 100 gp less than an eternal wand... but my version can be used by absolutely anyone (fighter? Sure!) and I got to make it using Craft Wondrous Item. We don't need a Dragonshard to tell us this can't be done - it's a simple common sense decision on the part of the DM. If you want to allow something like that in your game, be my guest; if I get a player whining about it - "But the book has a table showing me what it would cost", I'll certainly say "Yeah, that's what it would cost if I allowed you to make it, and I'm not going to." Extending Hellcow's statement, you could assume that House Cannith IS working on such things - after all, the ternal wand can be used by any arcane caster, which is a step forward from the "only if it's on your spell list" of the traditional wand. But it's the same as the fact that it took us a while to go from flintlocks to AK-47s. The fact that Eberron does require time - that it took centuries to go from lightning rail to airship - is something that I feel adds depth to the setting; I don't need a Dragonshard to tell me that. Still, you may be saying "What's stopping a PC from getting teleportation circle and permanency and making his own network?" Nothing, as far as I can see. They are core spells, and I don't see anything in Hellcow's statement that says that spellcasters can't learn core spells, just that they can't create new magic items without DM approval. The reason that hasn't been done before is because no one's been high enough level to do it. Hellcow pointed out that the Demographics table doesn't actually allow for 15th level artificers, let alone 17th-level wizards. An elemental vessel only takes a 13th level artificer, which can be found on the Dem table, even if it's rare. The only wizard I know of with the power to do this is Mordain the Fleshweaver, and he's a madman obsessed with creating new forms of life; somehow it doesn't surprise me that he hasn't taken the time to help out the world with a teleportation network. If your PC gets to the appropriate level and wants to do it? Great! Good for you! The only thing you need to worry about is if House Orien or Lyrandar will try to kill you before you get very far in order to prevent you from destroying their businesses. A campaign specific rule to declare it an uncommon spell is fine, but something like that should be written down. I completely agree. Maybe something at the very begining of the book, stating that you may have to adjust spells to fit the tone or attitude of the setting. ...seeking to fight people you know are good aligned and killing them in combat can be a non-evil act ... something which is diametrically opposed to BoED for instance, where the only excuse for such a thing is self defense. You've said a few times that changing core is the issue. BoED isn't core. Eberron makes no promises to support non-core books; it clearly states at the start that it supports the CORE rulebooks. The fact that BoED presents a big list of "Here's what's good and here's what's not" doesn't mean that any of that has to hold true in Eberron. In fact, Eberron specifically states that many assumptions about alignment don't hold true in the setting and that it should challenge people's preconceptions. Clearly, it DOES challenge people's preconceptions, because we're having this arguement and I've seen it repreated across the boards a hundred times. "Sometimes things are black and white, but more often than not they're colored in shades of grey." That's not the kind of setting BoED is designed for, just like the warshaper isn't made for a setting with +0 ECL shapeshifters. We're dealing with a setting that's just got out of a century of civil war, the sort of war that turns brother against brother. Such a thing isn't self-defense; it's pursuit of your national goals. But do you believe that every soldier who fought in the war is evil now because they killed people? It makes far more sense to me to say "Some served their country but felt great remorse or beleived that they had to in order to protect others; these people were and are good. Others felt no remorse or even took pleasure in the killing, raping victims and looting corpses; these people are evil. Neutral falls somewhere in between." I don't feel a Dragonshard is necessary to explain it, and I don't feel it's "retconning". It's exactly what I got from Chapter Nine, and from characters like Kaius. BoED simply isn't a core book, and I don't feel that there's any need for WotC to have an official canon statement that the tone of Eberron is at odds with BoED, when Chapter Nine clearly implies it.
ArcTan 08-08-07, 02:04 PM	No, I have seen no evidence that Erandis believes in the religion at all, that she is just using it as a convenient and effective front. The religion is about amassing as much power as you can in order to defy the gods and achieve immortality. That's exactly what Erandis wants and what she's doing. Is Jaela using the religion only for the express purpose of serving her? Or is she actually trying to follow the tennets of the faith and lead the church as best she can, without regards to her own personal power and profit? But the Blood of Vol *says* leaders are supposed to look out for their own personal power and profit. Oh, not petty, short-term profit, no, but the whole point is that the stronger use the weaker to leapfrog toward the Great Prize. That's what the whole screwed-up ritual of donating blood is about. I'd say Jaela actually believes in the power of the Flame, and wants what is best for the religion, not just herself. So no, Jaela is not corrupt.No one said she did. Look back at the post I was quoting. The implication they were making was that Erandis d'Vol was the founder of the Blood of Vol, I was correcting that mistake. She *is* the founder of the Blood of Vol. The Qalbarin religion that the Blood of Vol came from no longer exists. The Blood of Vol as it now exists is entirely Erandis' creation. Of course, Jaela is an open, public figure. She isn't hiding in the shadows twisting the actions of her followers to serve her own dark ends. The high ranking officials of the Blood of Vol do know that is what Vol is doing, and go along with it, not out of their faith but their own personal greed for wealth and power. "Greed for wealth and power" *is* the faith of the Blood of Vol. They wouldn't rise up for that, because thats not whats happening. They would rise up when they found out that there was a scheming evil manipulator that has been manipulating the faith for her own personal gain without regards to the well-being of the followers. Excuse me? The faith was suddenly supposed to be about the well-being of the followers now? They would rise up against the head of a terrorist organization that wantonly kills innocent people to get what they want. The fact that the *Emerald Claw* exists and is part of the Blood of Vol is no secret. The Emerald Claw claim to be patriots defending their religion and following its tenets for the greater good of the "true" Karrnath, not the corrupt, weakened Karrnath created by the Treaty of Thronehold. The average Blood of Vol member probably believes it. Hell, it's *true*, they just left out the detail of the super-powerful Lich who wants to extend the ideals of the "true" Karrnath to the rest of the world. And just where do you get that notion from? I don't recall anything saying that the BoV followers would lie, cheat, and steal from anyone they wanted. "People unfit to join the faith should be left to their own devices (until they are needed)". "The growth of the soul is always a personal matter, left to one's own devices (though a half-hearted soul might become a community sacrifice in some areas)." "Many individual Seekers saw the Last War as an 'opportunity'." Yeah, they're real sweethearts. And again, Erandis d'Vol did not create the religion any more than Jaela created the Silver Flame, she is just the current head of the religion. No, actually, Erandis did create the religion. She may think of herself as the logical heir to the ancient Qalbarin, but given that they're all dead and gone, and she was the only one left, and when she came to Khorvaire she pretty much told her new recruits anything she wanted to tell them without any other established church structure to restrain her, she's the founder of a new religion. Look to the real world. In the middle ages, Popes declared war on the middle east purely because of the financial, political, and military gains it would give them. However, they didn't tell their followers "We want you to go burn these guys so we can take all their land and money", they cloaked the reasons in "defending the holy land" and "driving out the infidels". And these were public figures. Do you honestly think that if there had been a secret Super-Pope pulling the strings, and that the general population got wind of the fact that they were fighting and dying just to line his pockets, that they would have just accepted it and kept on fighting? No. I do think that that has no parallel to the situation with the Blood of Vol, however, who are far more like Satanists and Objectivists than Catholics. Ayn Rand *did* use Objectivism to line her own pockets. The Objectivists were totally okay with this. Objectivism *taught* that lining your own pockets was the *right thing to do*. In any case, if Vol's only goal was to gather money and temporal power and really had no important beliefs about death and the afterlife, I might agree with you. But she's *not* a petty member of the Aurum. She *really does* want to find a way to resurrect herself and possibly bring back the power of House Vol on the continent and do all kinds of things that are exactly in line with what the Blood of Vol is about -- drive out the weak-minded fools who believe in traditional religion, increase the power of Man to overcome Nature, defy death. Yeah, Vol is doing exactly the same thing Kaius is doing. She's controlling things from behind the scenes (Kaius hides behind pretending to be Kaius III), except that Kaius actually wants what is best for his country. He's not driving his nation back to war just so he can be made king of a reunited galifar regardless of what it does to his people, he's trying to save his own country from destruction. Vol is playing the same game, but from the opposite angle. She's hiding behind her religion, and actively abusing it for her own gains. But she's not "abusing" it. To abuse it, it would have to be a nice, happy religion with goals completely different from hers, and it's not. The religion is set up so that anyone who's devoted enough to it someday dreams of becoming a creature like Erandis d'Vol, someone powerful enough to overleap all bounds of "decency" and "morality" and seize immortality for themselves through pure will.
ArcTan 08-08-07, 02:11 PM	Look, apologists for the BoV are in a way as annoying as incessant critics of the CotSF. It's doing the same thing -- taking a black-hat or white-hat organization and trying to make *everything* the same shade of gray. There are shades of gray, sure, but some gray is lighter or darker than others. Some organizations are actually meant to be Good -- and struggling against the Evil in their own ranks -- and some are actually meant to be Evil -- with members who aren't fully aware of the extent of the Evil and have a chance to be turned to Good. But saying the BoV are really intended to be happy nice folk, and are *totally unaware* of how horribly Evil their leadership is and therefore *totally not responsible* for the Evil they do -- no. It's not realistic or verisimilar *at all*. Honestly? No, I will not lay all blame for the Crusades and the Inquisition on the Pope's shoulders. In a powerful organization, there *isn't* a clear divide between leaders and followers, like you say. The followers absorb the leadership's attitudes and ideas and *become like the leaders* and therefore are willing to do the things the leadership wants. That's how good, effective leadership *works*. The average Nazi soldier did not think exactly the way Hitler did, did not absorb all of Hitler's ideas, was not as committed or insane as Hitler. But he was still a Nazi. The *average* Nazi soldier would not be able to fight in support of the Nazis and the things the Nazis did if he hadn't, to some degree, had his brain turned by being in the Nazi party and exposed to Nazi propaganda and *learning to think like a Nazi*. Hitler would've been a fool to keep the extent of his beliefs a "secret" from the populace. He got to power not by keeping his beliefs secret, but by *openly indoctrinating people into them*, and only keeping the *extent* of his beliefs secret. (Teach them to hate the Jews, but don't mention massacres and genocide just yet.) That's how I see the Blood of Vol and the Emerald Claw (who are, after all, the "Nazis of Eberron").
Pinky's brain 08-08-07, 03:00 PM	Now, you may have simple meant "Nothing's stopping a player character from learning teleportation circles and making his own." No, I'm saying that any wizard and sorcerer (and artificer for that matter) knows the spell exists and can learn it if they reach a high enough level. It's a spell, not a magic item ... and even if it was, changing the flavor to suit the setting is not the same as removing it or changing it beyond all recognition. Permanent teleportation circles last until dispelled and Eberron is hardly a new world. An elemental vessel only takes a 13th level artificer That ignores MoE rules for elemental binding (you need casters capable of actually casting greater planar binding). Regardless though ... assembly line production by 13rd level casters with almost complete absence of slightly higher level ones doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It's exactly what I got from Chapter Nine, and from characters like Kaius. He doesn't really examplify the evil character which never performs evil acts very well though (creating spawn for instance).
The Dreaming Duck 08-08-07, 05:31 PM	No, I'm saying that any wizard and sorcerer (and artificer for that matter) knows the spell exists and can learn it if they reach a high enough level. Has anyone argued that? As far as I can see, the only question on spells concerns non-core spells. Permanent teleportation circles last until dispelled and Eberron is hardly a new world. But you're presuming that the fact that it's "not a new world" means that there have been high level casters in the past. What makes this a safe assumption? By the demographics table, you cannot get a 17th level wizard in Eberron. The only way it can happen is if you choose to create one as a DM. What's been stated multiple times is that NPCs don't advance as PCs do - hence the fact that most veterans of the Last War remain 1st or 2nd level warriors, while a remarkable few attain higher levels. So the assertion isn't that "Given enough time, any wizard will become 17th level"; it's that only a true genius will ever reach that level. As far as I know, Mordain the Fleshweaver is the only 17th level wizard in Khorvaire - outstripping even Vol - and Mordain and Vol are supposed to be figures of legend. Likewise, both of them ARE figures of legend. Mordain is obsessed with creating new life; he doesn't care about teleportation circles. If Erandis gets that extra level, do you think her first concern will be showing up in Korth and volunteering to create a transport network? In some settings, you expect to see 17th or 18th level characters in every major city; they aren't even remarkable. According to Hellcow, the highest-level artificer in Sharn - the biggest metropolis in Khorvaire - is 11th level. IIRC correctly, the highest level wizard listed in the book is 11th-level, and he's not selling his services. So even if you have a truly remarkable person, you have the question of whether they'll have any interest in doing so. That ignores MoE rules for elemental binding (you need casters capable of actually casting greater planar binding). Regardless though ... assembly line production by 13rd level casters with almost complete absence of slightly higher level ones doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Certainly. What I'm saying is that I have no trouble with the idea that "The Zil have created an eldritch machine that casts Greater planar binding for them." Somehow I don't think that the phrase "you need a spellcaster to cast GPB" is really supposed to mean that if you somehow cast the spell through other means it just doesn't work. Read it that way if you want, but again, I personally have no problem with saying "The Zil have their own creation forge-like items to do this"... which would explain why the Zil have a virtual monopoly on it, just as Cannith had its warforged monopoly. Likewise, it explains why they don't have teleportation circles. They've managed to create a tool to do the heavy lifting when it comes to elemental binding - but that takes the place of a mass of high level characters. By the game as it stands, 13th-level PC classed characters are supposed to be exceedingly rare. I'm not sure I've ever seen a friendly 13th-level PC-class character who uses his skills for mercantile gain in a sourcebook (though I certainly don't know them line for line). You're seeing a metagame issue - where the people of the world aren't taking full advantage of things that should be available - and wanting an explanation for it. That's not unreasonable. But I'm seeing something where the intent of the game is clear - the gnomes are somehow capable of producing elemental vessels, they are incapable of producing teleportation circles, and high level characters are rare - and feel that because it fits the tone of the setting, I don't need an explanation. Obviously (to me), the gnomes have some form of tool that makes it possible. If WotC or Hellcow writes something official that says "The gnomes have a tool that makes it possible", great, now it's official - but it doesn't change my game at all, and if that info came at the expense of information I don't have, then I'm going to make the Sad Face. :( Point number one on page nine is that things may require adjustment; personally, that's enough for me to make the logical adjustment (the gnomes have special tools) on my own. Personally, I'd rather see the increasingly rare Dragonshards provide new game material as opposed to metagame band-aids. He doesn't really examplify the evil character which never performs evil acts very well though (creating spawn for instance). That's the point. He DOES perform evil acts. He orders people to be tortured or murdered. Who knows what he's done to his grandson, but the options don't look pretty. He's undoubtedly killed innocents himself. And yet, he has also done acts of great good. IMO that whole "Evil people can do good" thing isn't "Evil people can ONLY do good" - it's the fact that few people live their lives entirely one way. Kaius is an evil person who murders without remorse. But killing him would be a major step to throwing Khorvaire back into war, likely resulting the tens of thousands of deaths. He is an evil man who is nonetheless serving a greater good. And that, as I see it, is exactly what the ECS means when it says that you'll have to question your assumptions about alignment. The evil man doesn't ALWAYS do evil. The good woman doesn't ALWAYS do good. And opposing someone just because they're evil or helping them just because they're good can be a terrible, terrible mistake.
The Dreaming Duck 08-08-07, 07:03 PM	Permanent teleportation circles last until dispelled and Eberron is hardly a new world. Another observation: unless the dragonmarked houses control them, permanent teleportation circles will completely screw over House Lyrandar and House Orien. Right now you have to pay an Orien heir thousands of GP for a teleport; a permanent network is going to screw all the long-distance transport guilds. As such, if someone started making them, I'd expect Orien to try to recruit him - and failing that, I'd expect THEM to dispel the circles and do their best to kill the caster. Our history certainly has its share of market forces crushing revolutionary ideas in the interests of their bottom line.
Pinky's brain 08-08-07, 07:46 PM	Has anyone argued that? Yes, Hellcow did :) But you're presuming that the fact that it's "not a new world" means that there have been high level casters in the past. What makes this a safe assumption? Common sense. The dice mechanics of the demographics just represent a discretization of a curve. There are always outliers. So the assertion isn't that "Given enough time, any wizard will become 17th level"; Given enough time some of them will, there is no arbitrary level barrier for NPCs. Although a 14th level artificer with an orange ioun stone is a lot more likely.
The Dreaming Duck 08-08-07, 09:00 PM	Yes, Hellcow did :) Where? I the message I see specifically relates to non-core spells. I don't see anything suggesting otherwise. Common sense. The dice mechanics of the demographics just represent a discretization of a curve. There are always outliers. Given enough time some of them will, there is no arbitrary level barrier for NPCs. Actually, there is. You asked Hellcow for a Dragonshard to address the inconsistencies. In this case, he provided one long ago. The important thing is that NPCs do not follow the same rules as PCs. They do not acquire experience and advance in levels as player characters do. It's perfectly possible for a Brelish soldier to spend 20 years fighting in the wars and still be a 2nd or 3rd-level warrior. This is not about realism; if it was, you'd never see any 20th-level characters, when you consider the superhuman level of skill this represents. This is about replicating the flavor of movies and novels in which heroes and villains stand far above the common folk. The supporting cast shouldn't overshadow the main characters. It's a central part of the flavor of the setting. From earlier in the article, "An 18th level character is the stuff of legends." These are people like Mordain the Fleshweaver and Erandis d'Vol, people whose names are spoken in awe, not shmoes sitting in a workshop somewhere. The article also states "The goal of restricting powerful, benevolent NPCs in Eberron is to prevent the party and the world from relying on NPCs to solve their problems for them." Eberron is a place where the players DO stand out from the crowd, where they are the heroes of the novel. If there's a bunch of 17th-level wizards just hanging around with nothing to do, who needs you when trouble comes along? You may not like it and you're obviously free to ignore it. But it's a subject that has already been addressed in a Dragonshard - so I certainly hope we don't need another Dragonshard to clarify the one that came before.
Dragom 08-08-07, 09:04 PM	It does occure to me that a Paladin of the Silver Flame would be kind of upset at the thought of the Alignment changing spells in the Book of Exalted Deeds. In a "Villains by Neccesity" kind of way.
Pinky's brain 08-08-07, 09:17 PM	Where? I the message I see specifically relates to non-core spells. I don't see anything suggesting otherwise. "The Zil know how to bind elementals and have magical tools to assist with these tasks; they have no idea how to make a teleportation circle." They might lack the level, but not the knowledge. If there's a bunch of 17th-level wizards just hanging around with nothing to do, who needs you when trouble comes along? Each age has its own legends. The world is old ... over it's age there have been a bunch of 17th level wizards. PS. Dragom, no need to go non core ... there is always the helm of opposite alignment.
Hellcow 08-08-07, 09:41 PM	Sigh. This whole "magic" discussion seems to be completely off topic, so I'm going to spoiler-block my response. The Dreaming Duck has interpreted what I was trying to say correctly. In talking about the Zil, I was specifically addressing the idea of creating new magic items that aren't currently defined in the DMG, which to the best of my knowledge has no item replicating the power of a teleportation circle. The example of creating a 2-use wondrous item which can be used by anyone but otherwise is identical to an eternal wand (and at a lower cost) is exactly the issue. If you allow your players free rein to create new items, there's lots of things they can do that shatter the existing balance. Thus, the point is that such creations may be possible - but they'll take time. I'm sure Cannith IS working on the "anyone can use it" wand, but they haven't figured it out yet. Players should have access to every spell in the core books (though DD is correct to call up the point of the ECS that says "some spells/items/monsters may require modification to fit the tone of the setting"). If a wizard can get to high enough level to learn teleportation circle, he can. But the Demographics Dragonshard is the key here, written long ago and approved by WotC design. In Eberron, NPCs don't advance the same way as PCs. The unlimited potential of a PC and the ability to advance as quickly as they do is one of the things that distinguishes PCs from NPCs. NPCs essentially only advance through story awards; they gain levels when the DM feels that it's appropriate for them to do so, not simply through combat or the standard methods for PCs. Where a PC can reach any level, an NPC is assumed to have a certain maximum potential; some people just don't have it in them to go beyond 2nd level. In facts, the vast majority - some 90% of the population - never go beyond FIRST level. I'd say more, but the Dragonshard really says it all already. Even a 13th level artificer is AMAZING - Merrix d'Cannith isn't a 13th level artificer. The eldritch machine was introduced to the ECS precisely to cover this sort of thing, because it is the "plot device" that can cover any contingency. You can't make any eldritch machine you want; each one is unique and requires its own breakthrough or discovery, which is to say, DM fiat. The eldritch machine is the machine that lets the DM break the rules, and it was introduced in the book for precisely this reason. House Cannith came up with the creation forges, but it took them decades to perfect them, and they were inspired by ideas gathered from Xen'drik. The Zil also use some form of eldritch machine in their work, because they certainly don't have assembly lines of 13th-level artificers; as the Dragonshard says, anyone of that level is remarkable, not a trivial line worker. And as they are relying on a tool, that tool does one thing. Even there, THEY were inspired by their encounters with the Sulatar of Xen'drik, and learned the basics of binding by reverse-engineering Sulatar items. So it's not like they were sitting around and said "Which should we do - bind elementals or do teleportation?" - an opportunity for binding dropped in their lap and they ran with it. As I said earlier, I've discussed THAT topic at length in the "Common Misconceptions About Eberron" thread - which, frankly, would be a better place to continue this discussion. There may be a few 14th-level artificers out there with ioun stones. But again, someone of that level is AMAZING. And, like Mordain and Vol, he's likely got his OWN interests and agendas. Could he develop a teleportation network? Maybe. But he's fascinated by elemental binding. It's what his father and his father have worked on, and he's devoting his life to improving binding techniques and trying to make the next big breakthrough. He's a person, with his own goals and desires, and they won't necessarily be the most efficient ones. Beyond this, he undoubtedly does realize that Orien will either seek to kill him or force him into servitude if he starts the network, and level aside (they don't have any 18th level characters, and may not even have a 14) they have vast numbers, influence, and resources. So unless he wants to go down that path, he may stick to other projects.
Hellcow 08-08-07, 09:55 PM	Each age has its own legends. The world is old ... over it's age there have been a bunch of 17th level wizards. It's possible. The giants of Xen'drik were this powerful, and they did have a teleportation network - though, of course, they had a vast civilization of high-level mages, not just a single rare wizard. In Sarlona, the warmages of Ohr Kaluun were a terrifying force; perhaps a few of them achieved such power over the ages. In Khorvaire? Not many, if any. And even then, they were legends - and just because King Arthur might be an excellent blacksmith (hey, he's a high level character, he could certainly have an amazing Craft skill) doesn't mean that he'll start making swords. The fact that at some time in Khorvaire's history there might have been someone with the power to do this doesn't, in my mind, require some justification for why they didn't. Perhaps they were busy fighting wars. Perhaps they were like Mordain, obsessed with a particular field of study. Perhaps their creations were destroyed by House Orien or others before they were ever used; in the age before Galifar, the nations frequently fought one another, and the wizard who sought to create a continent-spanning network may have been rejected and his circles shattered. Or perhaps they are still out there - relics of a past age that have yet to be found, as they predate the oldest cities of the Five Nations. The fact of the matter is that they don't exist as part of modern Khorvaire, and I don't personally see that as an inconsistency that needs to be addressed. The lack of high-level benevolent characters is an intentional part of the setting. The lack of commonplace magic on the level of teleportation is an intentional part of the setting. It's something you can add if you just can't stand it - but to me, the fact that legends in the past may have had the power to do it doesn't require that they would have done so. If they had the power, they didn't use it in that way, or their works were destroyed in the time between then and now. But if you want to use them, it's your world too.
The Dreaming Duck 08-08-07, 10:05 PM	This whole "magic" discussion seems to be completely off topic Yes, and given that it's essentially come to nitpicking about sentence structure as opposed to intent, I'm going to drop it. I don't care about metagame complaints. I like the tone of the setting. I like the fact that magic is treated like any other science, requiring long development instead of just saying "Everything's available all at once." The fact that we can look at history and see the magic of Eberron evolving - galleon to lightning rail to airship, wand to eternal wand, golem to warforged titan to warforged - is one of the things that makes the setting stand out for me. It's one of the things that makes it Eberron - and to me, the rules should support the story, not break the story. If I want a world without teleportation circles - but one that has the potential to have teleportation circles in time - I don't feel that I need some new rule justifying it. It's part of the "tone and attitude of the setting", which we're supposed to adjust things as necessary to fit. But I've said all I care to say on this, unless something really new comes up. Duck out!
The Fireballed Mage 08-09-07, 01:09 PM	Each age has its own legends. The world is old ... over it's age there have been a bunch of 17th level wizards. Even if there were 17th level wizards, think of what motivates them. People with the skills and abilities to reach those heights are driven, have their own goals, their own desires. What do they care about making a teleportation circle for the masses? Their precious time is better spent on greater things, seeking to slate their own quest for magical knowledge. Maybe a circle between their own far-flung towers, but as a 17th level mage they can teleport themselves... what benefit does a circle bring to them? Maybe there was a great Orien wizard who in past centuries reached 17th level... but she never bothered to learn teleportation circle. Sure, she could have, but she had other goals, other pet projects that occupied her time. Perhaps they have responsiblities that take their time and their focus. An 18th level artifier from the past could have created a teleportation network, but instead he was horrified by his research that such a system would (rightly or wrongly) weaken the dimensional seals that kept Xoriat away. Instead he spent his later years (when he was powerful enough to create such a system), travelling with the Gatekeepers and strengthening the old seals. PCs can use the spells in the PHB however they wish (with DM approval): that's the advantage of being PCs. NPCs have achieved whatever the setting says and the DM permits. It's not "no one ever created a Khorvaire teleportation circle because they failed as characters," but instead, "no one ever created a Khorvaire teleporation circle becuase they were motivated by other goals, more important to their character." (Oh, and out-of-game it would add a level of power I as DM don't want. Deal with it. :D )
Alex_ 08-10-07, 07:55 AM	Sit down with a list of things that SHOULD exist logically in D&D because there exists a spellcaster that can cast the spell or meet the mechanical/material requirements. When your spellasting PCs reach those levels, put a hold on the campaign, hand them the list and inform them that from now on, this is what their life as a spellcaster will be devoted to. :P
Pinky's brain 08-10-07, 02:24 PM	The fact of the matter is that they don't exist as part of modern Khorvaire, and I don't personally see that as an inconsistency that needs to be addressed. The lack of high-level benevolent characters is an intentional part of the setting. The lack of commonplace magic on the level of teleportation is an intentional part of the setting. It's something you can add if you just can't stand it - but to me, the fact that legends in the past may have had the power to do it doesn't require that they would have done so. If they had the power, they didn't use it in that way, or their works were destroyed in the time between then and now. What irks me is the assembly line production of Elemental vessels, even going as far as books giving descriptions of shipyards and the presence of summoning circles in their hangars ... but never even a peep of the schema/eldritch machine you are now saying are necessary for their construction. Lets face it, the existence of such a device would make it Zilargo's greatest treasure and worthy of mention ... it's an artifact their entire industry hinges on and which would be constantly moved around the various shipyards. Or perhaps there would be one for each shipyard, but that would not diminish their importance ... and they would be easier to steal (although making such artifact level items so commonplace doesn't seem to fit the fluff about schemas/eldritch machines). If they exist they are too important not to mention ... if they don't exist there are enough high level characters to construct teleportation circles.
Alex_ 08-10-07, 02:53 PM	if they don't exist there are enough high level characters to construct teleportation circles. The caster requirements for constructing an airship are less than creating a Ring of Teleportation. 15th level casters are rare enough, and 17+ level casters are even rarer compared to them. In fact, the general level cap for NPCs in places where the level is common is 15. The only NPCs suggested to have broken the level 15 barrier are people not devoting their lives to the creation of Teleportation circles, just as the PCs don't obsesses over such things when they reach those levels.
Indigo 08-10-07, 02:54 PM	When your spellasting PCs reach those levels, put a hold on the campaign, hand them the list and inform them that from now on, this is what their life as a spellcaster will be devoted to. Absolutely! And there's all kinds of crazy issues here. What are you linking together? Every major city in the Five Nations? Every major city in Khorvaire? Do you work it as a grand central station, or do people have to know "OK, from Korth, I take the circle to Fairhaven, then from Fairhaven, I go to Sharn..." Each permanent teleportation circle will hit you up 4,500 xp. Just making a round trip from Sharn to Fairhaven is 9,000 xp, since you'll need a separate circle to go each way. If you make a one way circuit going Sharn-Wroat-Fairhaven-Flamekeep-Korth-Sharn, that's 27,000 xp, and that's the stripped down minimum. Do you want to throw that away - with the chance that it's all going to go poof when Orien comes along - while your buddies are all on their way to level 18? Getting it off the ground. Where are you going to put your circles? Are you going to charge for the service? Staff them with guards? Do anything to prevent criminals from using them as an instantaneous way to cross national lines? If you do just throw them out in the public square, as soon as you're going Orien will be threre to do some enchantment breaking, as free public transportation isn't going to help them out. If you set up buildings, hire staff, and so on... first, yeah, that really sounds like something I want to do as an adventurer, and second, now you're flashing that big light at Orien. They could use gold to try to interfere with your land purchase, keep jumping in to disenchant the circles, or just employ Thuranni to try to get you killed. You've got the question of whether the local law will want those circles around where criminals could use them. But beyond that... Don't Mention The War. Assume we've got a great mage in the Age of Galifar. He actually creates such a network. What he probably does is mirrors the Inspired's approach - having all the circles converge to a central station, and then from that station you can transfer out to any other circle point. Because you're dealing with linked circles, it's a big outlay of experience, but for whatever reason, he is that 17th level wizard with nothing better to do. This is Galifar. So where do you put that central station? I'd guess in Cyre, the heart of Galifar. So, if it survived Orien, if it survived everything else, now all your circles take you right into the Mournland. Whee! But frankly, they wouldn't last that long, because they'd be destroyed during the war, just like the White Arch Bridge. Thrane and Karrnath didn't want a lousy BRIDGE between their nations. How thrilled would they be to have a teleportation network? The whole point of the Inspired's network is that it isn't used by the public - it's used to transport soldiers and materiel. So sure, I really want a gate in my capital city that my enemy can send troops through. If it did exist, it would be the first thing to go when the war broke out. And today? The Mourning is the only thing holding the war at bay. Aurala WANTS the war to begin... and if there are any NPCs who can pull it off, they're in Aundair. So most nations are probably too tense to allow international teleport circles. And what I see as far more likely would be AURALA getting someone to create her own personal, secret set of circles ready to send troops across for a surpise attack. 15th Level Artificers. As I read the whole Hellcow thing, he never said that people couldn't learn or use core spells. He said that they couldn't create MAGIC ITEMS that didn't already exist without DM permission. So a 15th level artificer has the ability to emulate teleportation circle, and if he wants to make scrolls of TC and permanency, good for him. But that's like saying "Instead of airships, we'll have our artificers make a whole bunch of scrolls of fly." It works, but it has all the problems described above. What they CAN'T do is create some sort of new item with similar effects - a teleportation circle that automatically links to all other circles, or something like that. They can cast the spell, sure. But they can't do something innovative with it, because that requires, well, innovation. The war's the big one for me. If such a thing did exist, it would have been destroyed. No one's around to do it today. And Alex is dead on. Are YOU going to give up your adventuring career to try and set this up, to keep it from being abused by criminals, terrorists, spies, or warmongers, or destroyed by Orien or nations that don't want it? Even if I COULD do it, I sure wouldn't dedicate my life to it.
Indigo 08-10-07, 03:13 PM	What irks me is the assembly line production of Elemental vessels, even going as far as books giving descriptions of shipyards and the presence of summoning circles in their hangars ... but never even a peep of the schema/eldritch machine you are now saying are necessary for their construction. If you're refering to Magic of Eberron, it SUCKS for continuity. To the best of my knowledge, none of the authors had worked on prior Eberron material and it shows. The story of the elf rebellion in Xen'drik is a great example: It changes Aeren's gender. It claims that Aeren is still alive as an Undying - while other sources state that Aeren died and was buried on Aerenal, that the creation of the deathless was only possible because of Aerenal's Irian manifest zones, and that it took 13,000 years to create the Undying Court. It states that the "rebellion" was the work of one hundred elves, who labored in utmost secrecy, and then destroyed things in a SINGLE NIGHT... and that the rest of the fleeing slaves were protected in their exodus by a few elves. This idea undermines all KINDS of things within the setting. It completely ignores the fact that the Tairnadal culture is based around militant heroes, whose deeds were legendary in that time. It ignores the roots of House Phiarlan as the force who travel from place to place during the war, coordinating the tribes and recording their great deeds. It ignores the fact that it was the extended war against powerful elf military that forced the giants to turn to their apocalyptic magic and brought the dragons to Xen'drik. By the other books, Aeren didn't lead a massive exodus and singlehandedly defend slaves with his/her personal might; Aeren simply saw that doom was coming for BOTH elf and giant and convinced others to flee Xen'drik before it was too late. Obviously, they didn't get the memo that Eberron doesn't have a lot of high-level characters. And I'm SHOCKED - deeply shocked - to hear that they didn't quite get the idea of eldritch machines. Magic of Eberron is a deeply flawed book. The fact that the gnomes use something like creation forges seems perfectly obvious to me. I don't need a Dragonshard to essentially serve as an apology for a bad book; based on the other errors in it, I KNOW that it's not a strong source. And I could even pretend that they DID exist, if I wanted; they still wouldn't survive the war.
Hellcow 08-10-07, 03:22 PM	15th Level Artificers. As I read the whole Hellcow thing, he never said that people couldn't learn or use core spells. He said that they couldn't create MAGIC ITEMS that didn't already exist without DM permission. So a 15th level artificer has the ability to emulate teleportation circle, and if he wants to make scrolls of TC and permanency, good for him. But that's like saying "Instead of airships, we'll have our artificers make a whole bunch of scrolls of fly." It works, but it has all the problems described above. What they CAN'T do is create some sort of new item with similar effects - a teleportation circle that automatically links to all other circles, or something like that. They can cast the spell, sure. But they can't do something innovative with it, because that requires, well, innovation. Yes, that was my intention. I won't stop a PC from acquiring any of the spells in the PHB. If a wizard reaches that level, he can take teleportation circle. An artificer could put a scroll together. But what I was talking about was creating something far more efficient that a permanent teleportation circle, just as an airship is better than fly. I was thinking of an item that WOULD let you choose your destination, at least from a limited set - creating a new form of magic item that facilitated the network concept. And that's quite different from making a bunch of scrolls. Beyond that, yes, the war would and should play a major role here, along with the administration involved. If House Orien handled this, they have the staff and they have the facilities to house it and keep it under control, to restrict access and promise nations it won't be used for sneak attacks. For a private individual to do this would be a major task and certainly invite retaliation by Orien. And yes, I wasn't involved or consulted on Magic of Eberron. If I had been, I certainly would have gone into more detail about how the gnomes originally developed the techniques, the tools that they use, and the reason that they have a monopoly that's just as strong as that of a dragonmarked house (in no small part because they are just as ruthless when it comes to eliminating competition). But I have to agree: I don't see that it's worth a Dragonshard to settle the issue, especially since at the moment it seems that most people don't feel as strongly about it. ;)
Indigo 08-10-07, 03:32 PM	15th level casters are rare enough... Just curious, Alex - what's your source here? By the Demographics 'shard (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040712a), as far as I can tell, they're not just rare, they're impossible unless the DM decides otherwise. Normally, the best you'll get is 11th level in a metropolis (matching the statement that this is the highest level found in Sharn), going up to a maximum of 14th level in a metropolis in Aundair... which is to say Fairhaven, unless you consider Arcanix a metropolis for purposes of generating wizards (which I would). But back on that point of "We should have a Dragonshard to fix this", seems to me that we do - a dragonshard that says that there aren't any 15th level casters among the general populace, and MAYBE a few 14th levels if you get a good roll in the two places you could find them. MoE may mess it up, but that means that what we've got is a Shard fixing it, a sourcebook breaking it... do we need another Shard saying "No, REALLY"? Working off the Shard, and knowing that eldritch machines let you break the rules - in the way that I want them to be broken, and no more - it's trivial for me to fill in the blanks. They use an eldritch machine to overcome the level gap. It was developed for elemental binding and can't be used for other purposes. No one's figured out how to make an eldritch machine that makes teleportation circles. Magic of Eberron is as screwed up about elemental binding as it is about the history of Aerenal. Case closed, at least for me. ;)
Indigo 08-10-07, 04:03 PM	Common sense. The dice mechanics of the demographics just represent a discretization of a curve. There are always outliers. That's not common sense at all. It's completely ignoring the intent and words of the article. Characters who have more than twelve levels in a PC class are truly remarkable, even in the greatest cities of Khorvaire. As a result, when you are determining the highest-level character in an Eberron settlement, use the following tables... That's perfectly clear. Any character with more than twelve levels is truly remarkable. Use this table to determine the highest level character, not "use this table as a general guideline, but there are always outliers." This is born out by the fact that in Sharn, the characters DO conform to this table. The highest level cleric is 11th level, as is the highest-level wizard. If you're going to have outliers anywhere, it's Sharn. You can ALWAYS choose to break this rule, but now you're creating your own problem, and you can hardly expect Hellcow to fix it for you. He's done that. He's said that you just don't find casters over 11th level in most places, and you NEVER find them over 14th level, unless you create your own. Eldritch machines are provided as a mechanism for these lower level casters to accomplish the things that should require higher-level casters, without opening the can of worms of what else those higher-level casters can do. The offending material suggesting assembly lines of 13th-level casters is clearly based on FR demographics, where you can't throw a rock without hitting an epic wizard (and do me a favor, Fink - throw it hard!). There isn't a single 13th level wizard, sorcerer, or artificer in Sharn; by the Dragonshard, there isn't, in fact, one in any city in Khorvaire, unless the DM adds one of his own. And the only ones mentioned in the ECS are powerful people with their own agendas. Yes, there are outliers - but they're people like Mordain and Vol, not lineworkers in some factory.
Alex_ 08-10-07, 04:54 PM	Just curious, Alex - what's your source here? By the Demographics 'shard (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040712a), as far as I can tell, they're not just rare, they're impossible unless the DM decides otherwise. Normally, the best you'll get is 11th level in a metropolis (matching the statement that this is the highest level found in Sharn), going up to a maximum of 14th level in a metropolis in Aundair... which is to say Fairhaven, unless you consider Arcanix a metropolis for purposes of generating wizards (which I would). Druids have the potential to reach 16, but are limited to level 15. Probably because they're the full casters most likely to actually engage in and survive dangerous and challenging activities that would garner considerable exp on a daily basis compared to Wizards, Sorcerers, and Clerics.
Pinky's brain 08-10-07, 05:02 PM	The caster requirements for constructing an airship are less than creating a Ring of Teleportation. 15th level casters are rare enough, and 17+ level casters are even rarer compared to them. In fact, the general level cap for NPCs in places where the level is common is 15. Artificers are tricky.
Indigo 08-10-07, 05:04 PM	Druids have the potential to reach 16, but are limited to level 15. Why, you're absolutely right. Teach me not to pay close attention to the non-arcanes. ;) However, what it says is "in areas where these classes are common, level is 1d8+modifier"... followed by the fact that druids are common in the Eldeen Reaches and Shadow Marches. To get the maximum level, you need to have that +8 modifier from a metropolis. Are their actually any cities of this size IN the Eldeen Reaches of Shadow Marches? Zarash'ak is a small city, so the best you'd do is 12th; ditto for Varna, the lasrgest community in the Eldeen Reaches. So while you COULD get a 15th level, in pracitcal terms, you still end up with 12th beyond your remarkable high-level character. Essentially, the druid/ranger bump is cancelling out the fact that where these classes are common, you don't have metropolises.
Indigo 08-10-07, 05:09 PM	Artificers are tricky. Sure, and still limited to 11th level in metropolises in most of the world, with the possibility of finding a 14th-level one in Fairhaven or (if you choose to treat it as a metropolis, which it's not) Arcanix. Or if you add your own, in which case, now you've got a problem. If you accept that even an 11th-level artificer is exceptionally rare, and that things requiring high-level characters are instead accomplished by magical tools that often require centuries of R&D, then the problem goes away. IIRC, the original request was to make a Dragonshard to address the inconsistencies. The Demogrpahics Dragonshard - one of the first ones written for the setting - does just that. It says that 12th+ level characters are amazing, and that in the largest cities in Eberron, the highest level characters are usually 11th. MoE may have screwed it up - but the "fix the problem" Dragonshard has been in place for years.
JulesCARV 08-10-07, 05:43 PM	Druids have the potential to reach 16, but are limited to level 15. Probably because they're the full casters most likely to actually engage in and survive dangerous and challenging activities that would garner considerable exp on a daily basis compared to Wizards, Sorcerers, and Clerics. That's not really how NPCs level up in Eberron. An elf druid could adventure and kill stuff every day for a century and still be level 4 if he weren't very important dramatically, or he could level up from level 3 to level 18 over the course of two years if he's a recurring enemy of the PCs who levels up at roughly the same rate they do. Level in Eberron is essentially a measure of dramatic importance. I don't think Queen Aurala has fought in many more battles than a typical warrior 3.
Hellcow 08-10-07, 06:43 PM	That's not really how NPCs level up in Eberron. An elf druid could adventure and kill stuff every day for a century and still be level 4 if he weren't very important dramatically, or he could level up from level 3 to level 18 over the course of two years if he's a recurring enemy of the PCs who levels up at roughly the same rate they do. Level in Eberron is essentially a measure of dramatic importance. I don't think Queen Aurala has fought in many more battles than a typical warrior 3. Exactly. That's the point of paragraph five in the Demographics Dragonshard. In the Lord of the Rings, in doesn't matter that the typical Rohirrim soldier has spent his life hunting orcs, or for that matter that the typical orc has spent his life fighting Rohirrim or soldiers of Gondor. They simply aren't a match for Aragorn or Gimli. This is an aspect of Eberron where things aren't supposed to be realistic; and in many ways, in a truly realistic world, you'd never see a 20th-level fighter, when you consider all the crazy things such a character is capable of doing. As the Dragonshard says, if most people are 1st or 2nd level commoners - and by Eberron OR core demographics, they are - Even a FIFTH level fighter is pretty amazing. This is part of the pulp factor: the heroes and the villains are remarkable people who stand out from the crowd. It doesn't matter if the city guard has been in a thousand more brawls than you have; he's still a city guard - an extra, if you will - and you're one of the main characters. Equating level to dramatic importance is pretty much the way of it. And likewise, the Lord of Blades / Lady Vol / Mordain the Fleshweaver shouldn't advance unless unless the story requires them to do so... at which point they should advance in level. As the Dragonshard says, in Eberron NPCs don't use the same system as PCs; they only advance at the whim of the DM.
Alex_ 08-10-07, 08:25 PM	Exactly. That's the point of paragraph five in the Demographics Dragonshard. In the Lord of the Rings, in doesn't matter that the typical Rohirrim soldier has spent his life hunting orcs, or for that matter that the typical orc has spent his life fighting Rohirrim or soldiers of Gondor. They simply aren't a match for Aragorn or Gimli. This is an aspect of Eberron where things aren't supposed to be realistic; and in many ways, in a truly realistic world, you'd never see a 20th-level fighter, when you consider all the crazy things such a character is capable of doing. As the Dragonshard says, if most people are 1st or 2nd level commoners - and by Eberron OR core demographics, they are - Even a FIFTH level fighter is pretty amazing. This is part of the pulp factor: the heroes and the villains are remarkable people who stand out from the crowd. It doesn't matter if the city guard has been in a thousand more brawls than you have; he's still a city guard - an extra, if you will - and you're one of the main characters. Equating level to dramatic importance is pretty much the way of it. And likewise, the Lord of Blades / Lady Vol / Mordain the Fleshweaver shouldn't advance unless unless the story requires them to do so... at which point they should advance in level. As the Dragonshard says, in Eberron NPCs don't use the same system as PCs; they only advance at the whim of the DM. well now I'm curious. Why do the Druid, Ranger, and Barbarian NPCs get higher potential levels than other classes? Is it to offset the fact that their communities are generally smaller, and as such, receive a smaller base bonus in regards to determining max level?
Hellcow 08-10-07, 09:03 PM	well now I'm curious. Why do the Druid, Ranger, and Barbarian NPCs get higher potential levels than other classes? Is it to offset the fact that their communities are generally smaller, and as such, receive a smaller base bonus in regards to determining max level? Yes. It's the same principle as the DMG's demographics table having a chance of a bonus to druid or ranger level in a hamlet or thorp. The Eldeen Reaches don't have any large cities, but you should certainly have a chance to find a druid of as high a level in Varna as you would in Sharn. Likewise, there's no large cities in the Demon Wastes, but it's where the barbarians of Eberron thrive. You won't get many exceptional wizards or experts out there, but they've got barbarians. Obviously, a DM can choose to go beyond the table. It is a guideline. But what's important is the PRINCIPLE of it. In Eberron, having a PC class in the low teens is a BIG DEAL. These people aren't trivial characters with nothing to do. The 11th-level cleric in Sharn isn't some random person; she's the archheirophant of the Silver Flame in Breland. The high-level artificer isn't likely to be sitting around in a little shop; he'll be part of a Cannith think-tank, likely working on their next big thing (for example, trying to make an eternal wand with more charges, or one that can be used by anyone). You shouldn't find more than one or two 11th level characters of a class even in a metropolis, and characters over that level should be special people added in because they have an important role in the story. And remember, even important characters don't need to be high-level. Merrix d'Cannith is a 9th-level artificer and 12th-level total. His two counterparts in the other Cannith factions are both 8th-level characters. Queen Diani of Thrane is a 4th-level aristocrat. Even low level characters can have power due to their resources and their influence; the fact that they can't fight the PCs one on one isn't the point. It's not like Denethor could win a duel against Aragorn. Speaking to druids, if you look to the PGtE, there is an outline of the levels of the important characters associated with the druid sects. Setting aside Oalian, the highest level Warden is Faena Graymorn (Drd 13); the Ashbound have Gharull (Drd 10), Stormclaw (Bbn 12), and Tasia (Rgr 6/Eld Rgr 5); the Children of Winter have Forlorn (Drd 11) and Raven (Drd 9/Wrlk 3); the Gatekeepers have Saala Torrn (Drd 14), Koruun (Drd 11), and Orrash (Rgr 6/Eld Rgr 4); and the Greensingers have Silvertongue (Drd 12) and Kaelyn Windsong (Drd 7/Brd 3). All the rest of the NPCs listed - people who are supposed to be heroes of their sects - are below tenth level. So actually, as far as I know, while I set 15 as the level cap for druids, aside from Oalian I don't believe there's been a druid mentioned anywhere who is 15th level, and it looks like the best barbarians get is 12. By my ranking, the vast majority of the world is 1st level. 2nd-3rd is good - enough to make you a true verteran soldier - but not so much that people marvel at your skills. 4th-6th means that you are impressive; in Stormreach, the 4th-level fighters of the Iron Watch are a frightening force. 7th-9th is reaching hero level, champions of the war. 10th-12th are likely to be known across the nation if not across the continent; now bards should know tales of your deeds. And over 12th makes you one of the legends of the age. This ranking is based on PC classes, of course. Even so, 18th-level commoner Maza Thadian in Sharn is known across Khorvaire for her cullinary skills. You can have 14th level adepts or magewrights, as shown on the table - because a 14th-level adept isn't (IMO) a match for a 9th-level cleric.
Hellcow 08-11-07, 01:23 PM	One last note, to head it off before it gets asked: what about Heirs of Siberys? They HAVE to be 12th level to even get the PrC. So don't they break that 12th-level cap? Certainly. But first, they are extremely rare themselves; when James and I were working on Sharn, we concluded that there was a single Siberys heir in the city. Second, While a Siberys Heir needs twelve levels, there's no reason they have to be PC class levels; Magewright, Expert, and event Commoner levels (they have Craft and Profession!) are all completely appropriate for this. Most people who work for Cannith are supposed to be magewrights; any artificer deserves a little respect.
Pinky's brain 08-11-07, 02:06 PM	So how many Schemas/Eldritch machines does Zilargo have? Does it have one it passes around between the shipyards or does it have many copies? Or are all the elementals bound in a single place with the shards then being transported to the yards?
Hellcow 08-11-07, 03:40 PM	So how many Schemas/Eldritch machines does Zilargo have? One thing to bear in mind is that eldritch machines are remarkable in that they can essentially do whatever the DM wants, and it's entirely up to the DM to decide what goes into building them... which means that some are easier to create than others. Vol's necrotic resonator may require the unique Qabalrin Crystal as a component, and if it's destroyed she'll never be able to build another one. On the other hand, over the course of a century, House Cannith built creation forges across the Five Nations. I'd place the EMs used by the Zil in this category. Extremely expensive, requiring knowledge the gnomes have kept hidden, quite likely tweaked over the course of centuries so that only gnomes can activate them (so even if Cannith stole the plans and reverse-engineered them, it would take time to figure out how a human could use them)... but not irreplacable or unique. Likewise, I assume that they use different EMs for creating the elemental hearts of vessels, lightning rails, and the like than they do for creating other forms of elemental items... Just as Cannith used the creation forges to make warforged, but has other EMs it uses for other tasks. There are certainly a few 7th-9th level artificers around who can create elemental arms and armor unassisted, but it's been said that the Zil have other powerful elemental objects, on the level of seige weapons, and if this goes over the level of available artificers, it's going to require an EM. So I'd make a distinction between a core-forge - a facility designed to make the items used in elemental vessels and lightning rails, and generally devoted to developing new tools and techniques for elemental travel - and an elemental forge, which focuses on non-vehicular items. I'd place one elemental forge and two core-forges in Trolanport, all controlled by different families. The core-forges work closely with a number of different shipyards, but there are Zil shipyards that have nothing to do with elemental vehicles. This is just off the top of my head; if I sat down and thought it out, I might raise that to three. I'd place an elemental forge in Korranberg. And then I'd add a number of small elemental workshops without EMs in the other major cities of Zilargo, producing the lower-level weapons and armor and other as-yet-unseen items with day-to-day noncombat use. Of course, I'd also be increasing the population and size of Trolanport, Korranberg, Oskilor, and Thurimbar... but population density and map scale is an entirely different can of worms, and one I don't feel inclined to get back into. As a last note, I'd probably go ahead and increase the base artificer demographics for Zilargo to 1d4+1, and do the same for bards (along with the previously stated fact that Zilargo has an unusually high number of experts and bards among its 1st-level population, though with skills specifically targeted on communication and social interaction). While it was easy to target the big shifts - Aundair for arcanes, Thrane for divine, druids in the Eldeen Reaches - if I'd worked in exceptions for every nation, it would have been fairly clunky.
Psionycx 08-12-07, 06:03 PM	So essentially an eldritch machine is less than an artifact but more than a magical item?
Hellcow 08-12-07, 06:42 PM	So essentially an eldritch machine is less than an artifact but more than a magical item? Yes. It should be noted that it's a wondrous location, so while it is a plot device, it's intended to cover things like death rays, creation forges, etc - large, static things. It's the heart of a magic factory or the villain's ultimate weapon, but you can't carry it in your pocket. Now there is one piece in the ECS that got messed up in editing, so to clarify that... the ECS description says the following two things: In terms of game mechanics, an eldritch machine is a harnessed wish spell, which means that anyone who creates one must have a caster level of 17th or higher. Which is followed by... Fortunately for low-level PCs, creating an eldritch machine is not the exclusive province of high-level spellcasters. The task has no specific spell requirements or even a minimum caster level. Hurray! Two completely contradictory statements! I wrote the original EM description, and ORIGINALLY it said: An eldritch machine can do almost anything. Effectively, it's a harnessed wish. The primary limitation is that it can only do one thing; if it's designed to transform dwarves into halflings, you can't suddenly use it to teleport. So the "it requires a 17th level caster" got squeezed in there by an editor; it's completely irrelevant to the point of the paragraph, and it contradicts what comes later. The third paragraph is the key: creating an eldritch machine has no set caster level, no set spell requirements, no set market price; you can potentially make one at 1st level if you find the key to do it, and meanwhile, just because you're 17th level doesn't ensure that you can make one. What goes into an eldritch machine is entirely up to the DM. As it later says in the description, "Eldritch machines bend many of the rules of magic used in Dungeons & Dragons. They exist primarily as plot devices, and you as DM should feel free to set saving throws as desired, invent building requirements, and determine how to destroy a machine as you see fit." Mostly EMs are intended to let villains create terrible threats that can't be replicated. Lady Vol can created something far deadlier than any spell she can cast, and once you foil her plan, it's done - next time around she'll try something new. But it's also precisely the tool needed for this elemental binding vs teleportation circle. There's no set rules for making EMs, no set level restrictions. It's entirely up to the DM to set time, cost, and requirements. Thus, over the course of centuries, the gnomes successfully developed binding EMs that let them perform large-scale binding tasks despite a lack of high-level characters. It's possible that someone COULD develop an EM to help create a teleportation circle, but it's not as simple as saying "Because I want one I can make one"; the DM can decide it's impossible, that it's going to take a thousand years, that you'll need to recover a matrix from the network used by the giants in Xen'drik, that you can do it but you have to sacrifice an elf every time it's activated (who knows? Maybe that's what powered the giant's network), and so on, and so on. It's not the same as saying "Because I have a high-level caster who can create one, he can create the other."
ArcTan 08-12-07, 09:06 PM	By my ranking, the vast majority of the world is 1st level. 2nd-3rd is good - enough to make you a true verteran soldier - but not so much that people marvel at your skills. 4th-6th means that you are impressive; in Stormreach, the 4th-level fighters of the Iron Watch are a frightening force. 7th-9th is reaching hero level, champions of the war. 10th-12th are likely to be known across the nation if not across the continent; now bards should know tales of your deeds. And over 12th makes you one of the legends of the age. It's important to note that by core D&D rules, the legend lore spell is aware of any "legendary" character and can tell you about their background and exploits as known and sung by bards everywhere, and any 11th-level or higher character is "legendary".
Hellcow 08-12-07, 09:20 PM	It's important to note that by core D&D rules, the legend lore spell is aware of any "legendary" character... and any 11th-level or higher character is "legendary". Interesting - you're absolutely right. It even states that this can include "information that has never been generally known." So technically, the world may not know about your battle with the Dreaming Dark, but legend lore would pull it up. So it's not a question of how wide your fame has spread, it's whether you've actually accomplished anything significant... with the implication being that most people of level 11+ have.
Alex_ 08-12-07, 11:16 PM	The Silver Flame didn't purge the Lycanthropes because they where evil. Many types of lycanthropes are good, and turn the people they infect good. They could have only purged the evil Lycanthropes and all of Khorvaire could know by adamantly good. But does it really count you know... Seeing as they masses of level 1 commoner werebears never had a choice to do good. They where infected and they just had to do good ever after? Lycanthopy was purged BECAUSE it forces an alignment change. A desease of the soul, that consumes all you where and replaces it with something else. The purge was about protecting souls. Not erradicating evil. The way the Lycanthropic disease was spreading, not even Good/Neutral Lycantrhopes were safe. They would also spontaneously turn Evil, with no prediction as to when or where it would occur. And trying to figure out which ones are good/evil is easier said than done unless you're a mid level PC class character. The Evil ones are out to kill you and anyone else they can find, and the Good/Neutral ones are doing everything in their power to avoid you, that is until they flip out at any second and become the Evil ones who desire nothing else but to kill as many people as possible. It's like a Zombie Movie, only the disease doesn't even require contact and anyone could become a zombie at any time.
Archtyrant Terevoth 08-14-07, 01:51 AM	And trying to figure out which ones are good/evil is easier said than done unless you're a mid level PC class character. The Evil ones are out to kill you and anyone else they can find, and the Good/Neutral ones are doing everything in their power to avoid you, that is until they flip out at any second and become the Evil ones who desire nothing else but to kill as many people as possible. Why not just a paladin with detect evil?
Alex_ 08-14-07, 12:32 PM	Why not just a paladin with detect evil? Paladins or any class with detect evil are very rare. They make up a miniscule percentage of the population. They can't be everywhere, using detect Evil on every Lycantrhope. Most holy warriors and Templars of the Silver Flame were Warriors, and maybe Fighters. And again, even the Good and Neutral Lycanthropes would change from the affliction spontaneously. A Lycantrhope that doesn't register Evil tonight, by tomorrow night, next week, or a month from now could become an Evil one and go to slaughtering as many people as it could get away with. Not that this was the reason they killed them, but this fact would have made even "just kill the Evil ones only, and it'll all stop" easier said than done.