Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nived 08-11-07, 12:57 AM	You know sometimes there are spells in the Player's Handbook that you never bother to read, you just casually flip past them. Such is the case with me and Control Winds, I never read it, not that I can remember anyway. Recently it came up between me and some friends in the context of Eberron, which lead to a debate about its power... which seems incredible. Which leads me to believe I'm overlooking something fundamental in it. Relevant links Control Winds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWinds.htm) Wind Hazards (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/weather.htm#winds) Here's the theory I'm trying to poke holes in. At Caster Level 15, someone casting Control Winds can create a Tornado from no wind at all. The winds are controlled in a area of 600 feet with a range of 600 feet. The duration of 150 minutes. Any who fail their Fort save are pulled towards the tornado, those who come in contact with the tornado take 6d6 points of damage for 1d10 rounds before being tossed out. At which point they can be sucked right back in. Someone with Control Winds can not only dictate the size of the tornado within that area, but can with Concentration checks control the direction and movement of the tornado. Why does this matter? Greater Dragonmarks only have caster level 10? Well Dragonmarked Heir, Storm Sentry, or Windwright Captain can get that 15th caster level by level 10 (in the case of the Dmark Heir and the Storm Sentry) or level 12 (Windwright Cap'n. Repeated saveless (the fort save is to avoid the getting sucked in, not damage from contact with the funnel) damage for 150 minutes? 1500 Rounds? I have to be reading something wrong. The problem as I read it is that Control Winds doesn't make it clear the caster level required to stir up those kinds of winds. Wind Strength For every three caster levels, you can increase or decrease wind strength by one level. Each round on your turn, a creature in the wind must make a Fortitude save or suffer the effect of being in the windy area. But it never says what the base caster level is, if the base caster level is 1, then yes at 15th level you can stir up tornadoes (something possible with Greater Dragonmarks Control Weather or casters at 13th level with Control Weather though they can't control its path) If we assume that 9th level is the base caster level (min required to cast the spell by a druid or cleric) then the max force the spell can conjure from no wind at all is Hurricane Force Winds from nothing, and that's at 18th level. Impressive surely, but not much compared to control weather, and easily weaker than the other Greater Dragonmark ability. Still the alternative seems insane. What exactly is the power of Control Winds?
OctaviusIII 08-11-07, 02:53 AM	I've always figured that the increase based on caster level meant just that: for every 3 caster levels, you increase range by X amount or improve the power by X. So, if you got this power at CL 9, then you can improve the power 3 levels. That dragonmark does seem overpowered, but there may be some contingency you and I aren't seeing. That, or people haven't noticed?
Dr. Benway 08-12-07, 12:36 AM	House Lyrander just Rulez yo.:cool: DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail?
Nived 08-12-07, 01:00 AM	It certainly seems so.
Shady314 08-13-07, 07:28 AM	The Fort Save you must make against the spell Control Winds is not the same Fort Save you must make against an actual tornado. The Fort save for the spell Control Winds, if successful means, (this is a quote from the SRD from the spell) "a creature in the wind must make a Fortitude save or suffer the effect of being IN the windy AREA." Make the Fort Save vs. the spell and you don't get treated for being in the Tornado PERIOD. No saveless damage and no DC 30 to not be sucked in. Odd and unrealistic? Perhaps but it's like SR saving you from magical fire like a fireball but not an actual fire. Granted the save has to be done every round (but I'm sure this makes the caster a high priority target) and this doesn't change much but it's something to be pointed out. Also did anyone notice the Tornado has a CR of 10? Yes Lyrandar do rule. I think this JUST about makes up for being a half-elf. ;)
Darakhoranon 08-20-07, 04:18 PM	I think you´re overlooking the fact that whipping up a tornado right in front of King Boranel´s palace is a BAD idea...:D Seriously, though, while this ability is very powerful, how often do you think it´s really used? And if I´m not overlooking something, at least the caster´s allies (if not the caster himself if he´s not careful...) are ALSO susceptible to the spells effects - which means our dragonmarked character wouldn´t be very popular to have around... And even if we forget about good old "friendly fire (I mean: tornado)", we still have the ever popular "collateral damage" - unleashing a tornado anywhere in a civilized area (or anywhere populated by short-tempered goblinoid barbarians/dragons/rakshasas/...) won´t make you many friends. So yes, you CAN devastate whole armies with this power. You just SHOULDN`T do it (in most cases)...
Nived 08-20-07, 05:13 PM	Not particularly, the spell is called control winds for a reason, you have a control over those psychotically strong winds and the party need not worry about getting caught in a twister (Control Weather is another matter you have no control over that twister). You may create an “eye” of calm air up to 80 feet in diameter at the center of the area if you so desire, and you may choose to limit the area to any cylindrical area less than your full limit. That's plenty of room to keep the party from getting slammed. Further more if you want you can just make it a 5 foot wide 600 foot long blast of tornado force (175 mph) winds if you want to, that's the amount of control you have over the wind. Colateral damage is what you choose it to be.
Darakhoranon 08-21-07, 12:19 PM	Ok, granted. But if you do create an actual tornado, your control over the collateral damage goes out the window. You (and your allies) might be safe in the eye of the storm, but EVERYTHING on the other side is (potentially) swept up. And even if you use a "tornado lance", a 600 ft. LINE means trouble. One way or the other, I don´t see this spell/ability as being all that useful during an average (random) fight. If you have the time to prepare aedequately and if you can choose your battle ground, then yes, Control Winds IS extremely powerful. But let´s say you´re guarding a caravan and just got jumped by bandits. Melee´s already broken out. So how exactly would you use Control Winds? Whipping up a tornado AROUND the caravan wouldn´t really accomplish all that much, would it? Using a "tornado lance" might be useful, but since we´re talking about a 600 ft. line, it would probably be a bit... unwieldy... And if you´re standing in the middle of town, using Control Winds isn´t really an option (as long as we´re talking about going all-out with it). So while I see this spell/ability as being POTENTIALLY powerful, I don´t think using it is ALWAYS the "best" choice - or even an intelligent one. So its theoretical power is kept in check by the difficulties of this spell´s/ability´s practical implementation.
Roxlimn 08-31-07, 06:49 AM	Military action is the province of House Deneith, so I don't believe that any Dragonmarked would use the power aggressively unless it's to protect their holdings, most notably Stormreach. So don't **** off the half elves.
scrollreader 08-31-07, 10:16 AM	You need a CL of 18 in order to be able to get tornado force winds. CL 15 leaves you one category short. Still, with Dragonmark magic items it /is/ possible to get this ability. One of my PCs in point of fact, went that very route (even worse, CL 18 allows you to take Quicken Spell-Like Ability from the MM1 for it). It's a very useful and powerful ability (honestly, the no save 'checked' power is probably the best part) but it requires magic items to make it so. It's worth noting you can make the gust of wind take up as little space as you want, allowing you to make a 'tornado' that's only five feet across, and drop it on the head of someone you dislike. Another use is as "Windwall Plus" as the party member put it. It can easily cut enemy forces in two, with no ranged attacks allowed between the two sides, allowing the party and half the enemy (in the eye) to fight, and then allowing the party to engage the rest of the enemy. Not to mention making the winds all come in towards a target"Updraft" allowing you to check /anything/. See the Tarrasque? See the tarrasque unable to move? The Mark of Storm (greater) is probably the best /combat/ Mark, IMO. But each of the Marks has their uses. They just don't all suit adventurers. (Awaken 2/day? Blech)
Nived 08-31-07, 02:14 PM	Scrollreader, can you explain in detail how you came to the conclusion that 18th caster level is tornado force from no winds? I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. I'm not challenging you I'm just curious.
Subtle Knife 09-01-07, 10:11 AM	It strikes me that the ultimate strength of your winds depends on your caster level and the ambient wind present. As such, a Dragonmarked Heir/Storm Sentinel/Windwright Captain with a CL 15 Control Winds is able to create a tornado as long as there is at least Moderate Winds available. Ambient Winds CL Light Moderate Strong Severe Storm Hurricane Tornado 3rd Moderate Strong Severe Storm Hurricane Tornado 6th Strong Severe Storm Hurricane Tornado 9th Severe Storm Hurricane Tornado 12th Storm Hurricane Tornado 15th Hurricane Tornado 18th Tornado Also consider that a Sandstorm/Duststorm can be created by increasing winds at or above Severe, as long as free sand or dust is available. From the SRD: Winds The wind can create a stinging spray of sand or dust, fan a large fire, heel over a small boat, and blow gases or vapors away. If powerful enough, it can even knock characters down (see Table: Wind Effects), interfere with ranged attacks, or impose penalties on some skill checks. Light Wind A gentle breeze, having little or no game effect. Moderate Wind A steady wind with a 50% chance of extinguishing small, unprotected flames, such as candles. Strong Wind Gusts that automatically extinguish unprotected flames (candles, torches, and the like). Such gusts impose a -2 penalty on ranged attack rolls and on Listen checks. Severe Wind In addition to automatically extinguishing any unprotected flames, winds of this magnitude cause protected flames (such as those of lanterns) to dance wildly and have a 50% chance of extinguishing these lights. Ranged weapon attacks and Listen checks are at a -4 penalty. This is the velocity of wind produced by a gust of wind spell. Windstorm Powerful enough to bring down branches if not whole trees, windstorms automatically extinguish unprotected flames and have a 75% chance of blowing out protected flames, such as those of lanterns. Ranged weapon attacks are impossible, and even siege weapons have a -4 penalty on attack rolls. Listen checks are at a -8 penalty due to the howling of the wind. Hurricane-Force Wind All flames are extinguished. Ranged attacks are impossible (except with siege weapons, which have a -8 penalty on attack rolls). Listen checks are impossible: All characters can hear is the roaring of the wind. Hurricane-force winds often fell trees. Tornado (CR 10) All flames are extinguished. All ranged attacks are impossible (even with siege weapons), as are Listen checks. Instead of being blown away (see Table: Wind Effects), characters in close proximity to a tornado who fail their Fortitude saves are sucked toward the tornado. Those who come in contact with the actual funnel cloud are picked up and whirled around for 1d10 rounds, taking 6d6 points of damage per round, before being violently expelled (falling damage may apply). While a tornado’s rotational speed can be as great as 300 mph, the funnel itself moves forward at an average of 30 mph (roughly 250 feet per round). A tornado uproots trees, destroys buildings, and causes other similar forms of major destruction. Storms The combined effects of precipitation (or dust) and wind that accompany all storms reduce visibility ranges by three quarters, imposing a -8 penalty on Spot, Search, and Listen checks. Storms make ranged weapon attacks impossible, except for those using siege weapons, which have a -4 penalty on attack rolls. They automatically extinguish candles, torches, and similar unprotected flames. They cause protected flames, such as those of lanterns, to dance wildly and have a 50% chance to extinguish these lights. See Table: Wind Effects for possible consequences to creatures caught outside without shelter during such a storm. Storms are divided into the following three types. Duststorm (CR 3) These desert storms differ from other storms in that they have no precipitation. Instead, a duststorm blows fine grains of sand that obscure vision, smother unprotected flames, and can even choke protected flames (50% chance). Most duststorms are accompanied by severe winds and leave behind a deposit of 1d6 inches of sand. However, there is a 10% chance for a greater duststorm to be accompanied by windstorm-magnitude winds (see Table: Wind Effects). These greater duststorms deal 1d3 points of nonlethal damage each round to anyone caught out in the open without shelter and also pose a choking hazard (see Drowning—except that a character with a scarf or similar protection across her mouth and nose does not begin to choke until after a number of rounds equal to 10 × her Constitution score). Greater duststorms leave 2d3-1 feet of fine sand in their wake. Control Winds Transmutation [Air] Level: Air 5, Drd 5 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: 40 ft./level Area: 40 ft./level radius cylinder 40 ft. high Duration: 10 min./level Saving Throw: Fortitude negates Spell Resistance: No You alter wind force in the area surrounding you. You can make the wind blow in a certain direction or manner, increase its strength, or decrease its strength. The new wind direction and strength persist until the spell ends or until you choose to alter your handiwork, which requires concentration. You may create an “eye” of calm air up to 80 feet in diameter at the center of the area if you so desire, and you may choose to limit the area to any cylindrical area less than your full limit. Wind Direction You may choose one of four basic wind patterns to function over the spell’s area. * A downdraft blows from the center outward in equal strength in all directions. * An updraft blows from the outer edges in toward the center in equal strength from all directions, veering upward before impinging on the eye in the center. * A rotation causes the winds to circle the center in clockwise or counterclockwise fashion. * A blast simply causes the winds to blow in one direction across the entire area from one side to the other. Wind Strength For every three caster levels, you can increase or decrease wind strength by one level. Each round on your turn, a creature in the wind must make a Fortitude save or suffer the effect of being in the windy area. * Strong winds (21+ mph) make sailing difficult. * A severe wind (31+ mph) causes minor ship and building damage. * A windstorm (51+ mph) drives most flying creatures from the skies, uproots small trees, knocks down light wooden structures, tears off roofs, and endangers ships. * Hurricane force winds (75+ mph) destroy wooden buildings, sometimes uproot even large trees, and cause most ships to founder. * A tornado (175+ mph) destroys all nonfortified buildings and often uproots large trees.
Nived 09-01-07, 10:53 AM	Ah I see, the spell failed to mention moderate winds and I didn't count it in my calculations, yes that would make everything add up. Its always something stupid or minor that I overlook.