Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rauric 08-31-07, 11:57 PM	Is there a difference to fiends native to Khyber and the one on the Planes? Can imps come from Khyber? Can Khyber create Balors? I just wanted to know the boundries of Khyber's power. On a side note during the age of Demons did the Archons and Angels try helping the Dragons? Did Devil work with Demons druing that time?
Hellcow 09-01-07, 01:55 AM	Is there a difference to fiends native to Khyber and the one on the Planes? Can imps come from Khyber? Can Khyber create Balors? I just wanted to know the boundries of Khyber's power. It's entirely up to the DM to decide if Khyber CAN create traditional devils or demons of any sort. It is an option that can be used, but not one set in stone, thus the limitations are in the hands of the DMs. The rakshasas are still supposed to remain the most common fiends of Eberron. Likewise, the members of the Council of Ashtakala are supposed to be the most powerful unbound fiends - so if Khyber CAN create balors, they would be quite rare and possibly bound in Khyber like the daelkyr. In terms of differences, mechanically they would be natives instead of extraplanar. Beyond this, they would have a trememndously different psychological outlook on things. A devil from Shavarath is an embodiment of evil, but filtered through the lens of war: it is a spirit of the plane of war, and evil in that context. A devil of Khyber has more room to focus on traditional evil and the corruption of humans - who are, after all, creatures of its native plane. On a side note during the age of Demons did the Archons and Angels try helping the Dragons? Did Devil work with Demons druing that time? There can always be exceptions, but as a general rule, no. The archons, and angels believe that what they are doing on their own planes is far more important than events happening on Eberron. In fighting the war on Shavarath, the archons believe that they are shaping the balance of good and evil on ALL planes - by abandoning their posts to focus on one specific plane, they threat what they believe to be the universal balance. It's a subject that's been discussed in far greater detail on other threads, if you do some searching. As for "devil and demon", I'm assuming you mean extraplanar devils and demons, in which case the same is true for them. If you mean would a Khyber-spawned devil work with a Khyber-spawned rakshasa, certainly. However, it's also possible that it might not, because odds are that they'd serve different overlords, and one of the defining elements of the overlords (Rajahs) is that they rarely worked together. Don't forget that the conflict between dragons and fiends lasted for tens of thousands of years - longer than the rest of recorded history. This wasn't a quick battle, with angels diving in to turn the tide at the critical moment. It was a war that lasted for many generations of dragons, which would lapse for six thousand years only to start again, and so on. Until the couatl sacrifice, there was no way TO end it, because the fiends simply couldn't be killed; luckily for the dragons, the fiends didn't want to utterly exterminate them, or they porbably would have been wiped out in the first few millenia.
Rauric 09-01-07, 02:56 AM	Ok, this helps me out a bit. Are there any archfiends or "uberfiends" on the planes? Beings like Grazzt or Demogorgon? I know I saw something that mentioned that those beings could be the Rajahs or servants of the Rajahs that are bound in their own demiplane in Khyber. On a side note, if stuff like this is in the Online Initiative then I am pretty much am onboard for it. Long Live Fluff!!!;) Edit: I just saw that you were in Cape May on vaction. I live down the road a bit in Galloway but I was able to hit the Ocean City beach with my faimly a few times. Glad the weather was nice and you missed the Hurricane. Thanks again for your response.
mhacdebhandia 09-01-07, 02:02 PM	Keith's conversion notes for the Savage Tide Adventure Path suggest that Demogorgon and other powerful fiends could be unique entities from the Age of Demons - among the most powerful demons which remain unbound, and maintain personal extradimensional realms within the otherworldly space of Khyber. http://paizo.com/dungeon has the conversion notes - look under News or Resources.
Hellcow 09-01-07, 02:14 PM	Ok, this helps me out a bit. Are there any archfiends or "uberfiends" on the planes? Beings like Grazzt or Demogorgon? I know I saw something that mentioned that those beings could be the Rajahs or servants of the Rajahs that are bound in their own demiplane in Khyber. Mhacdebhandia has already pointed you towards the "demiplane in Khyber" aspect. Beyond that, I see no reason why you couldn't have archfiends as powerful beings on the planes that make the most sense for them... provided that they serve a logical role on that plane. I wouldn't just say "All the archdevils are generals on Shavarath", because some of them just don't make sense as spirits of war. Essentially, if you want them to be primarily interested in Eberron, then they should be spirits OF Eberron (well, Khyber); if they are lords of the outer planes, then the outer planes are where their ambitions lie.
Euangelion 09-01-07, 04:15 PM	It seems to me that the likeliest role that Syrania could have played in the Khyber-Syberis War would have been to serve as a refuge for many of the couatls of Eberron in the millenia leading up to the conflict, where the Draconic Prophesy could be studied by the self-exiled couatls before it was reintroduced to the dragons by the couatls. As celestials that can plane shift at will, and who draw their arcane spells from the Good and Air domains (as well as Law), Syrania would seem to be well-suited to serve as a place of refuge for such beings. Perhaps it was in consultation with the angels that the idea to create the Silver eidolon was first conceived.
Hellcow 09-01-07, 05:54 PM	Certainly reasonable. The only issue would be if the angels felt that over the long term, the outsiders would threaten the purity of the plane. But as a short-term sanctuary, it's not unreasonable.
androkguz 09-03-07, 11:23 AM	If you mean would a Khyber-spawned devil work with a Khyber-spawned rakshasa, certainly. Keith help me out here. Are rakshasas Lawful or Chaotic or what? I just don't get how the Lords of Dust are a CE cabal with rakshasas being LE.
DragoonDarkfire 09-03-07, 02:19 PM	Certainly reasonable. The only issue would be if the angels felt that over the long term, the outsiders would threaten the purity of the plane. But as a short-term sanctuary, it's not unreasonable. Short term in the words of immortals would be vastly different from our perspective of short term would it not?
Hellcow 09-03-07, 03:53 PM	Keith help me out here. Are rakshasas Lawful or Chaotic or what? I just don't get how the Lords of Dust are a CE cabal with rakshasas being LE. I think the term "chaotic evil cabal" is a misnomer. I'm not sure how it got in there. One potential point of confusion is that the Lords of Dust often CAUSE chaos among other races if it suits their purposes. Hence the prakhutu of Eldrantulku in Dragon 337, who believes that his lord will be freed when a might empire is torn apart from within, and who thus helps empires rise so that he can arrange for their collapse. By nature, the Lords of Dust are careful planners. They develop schemes that can take decades or millenia to unfold. Thus, THEY behave in a manner more aligned to order than chaos. However, their actions often sow chaos and discord among other civilizations. Furthermore, while each individual prakhutu maintains an organized network of agents, the prakhutu rarely work together (which after all was the reason they were defeated to begin with); it's not in their nature. They try to stay out of each other's way, but they aren't a single monolithic entity; they are a cabal of masterminds, each with their own schemes. So law and chaos can be somewhat as tricky to pin down as good and evil. But they are creatures who pursue their own ends in a carefully orchestrated, logical manner - but those goals may appear to be chaotic to others.
Hellcow 09-03-07, 03:56 PM	Short term in the words of immortals would be vastly different from our perspective of short term would it not? Maybe yes, maybe no. Water boils in the same amount of time whether I'm immortal or not. If the angels are concerned about corruption of the plane - something they consider to be a (meta)physical process - then it's not about what seems like a long or short time to them, it's how long they believe that process takes. in general, I agree; immortals have a very different view of reality than mortals. But that still doesn't prevent an angel from saying "I know it's the blink of an eye to such as you and I, but I can't let you stay for more than one day." ... if that's what you, as a DM, want.
androkguz 09-05-07, 09:59 PM	I think the term "chaotic evil cabal" is a misnomer. I'm not sure how it got in there. One potential point of confusion is that the Lords of Dust often CAUSE chaos among other races if it suits their purposes. Hence the prakhutu of Eldrantulku in Dragon 337, who believes that his lord will be freed when a might empire is torn apart from within, and who thus helps empires rise so that he can arrange for their collapse. By nature, the Lords of Dust are careful planners. They develop schemes that can take decades or millenia to unfold. Thus, THEY behave in a manner more aligned to order than chaos. However, their actions often sow chaos and discord among other civilizations. Furthermore, while each individual prakhutu maintains an organized network of agents, the prakhutu rarely work together (which after all was the reason they were defeated to begin with); it's not in their nature. They try to stay out of each other's way, but they aren't a single monolithic entity; they are a cabal of masterminds, each with their own schemes. So law and chaos can be somewhat as tricky to pin down as good and evil. But they are creatures who pursue their own ends in a carefully orchestrated, logical manner - but those goals may appear to be chaotic to others. Ok... you kind of confused me more... :confused: Well, you actually clarified me a lot in how the rakshasa and their khyberian childs behave but if I'm not missing something then I think they should be neutral evil don't you think? I mean, they are trully only dedicated to evil. Or perhaps lawful evil because they each behave as a careful planner (but so did Grazz't... are they more like him?) In any case, why are they considered so much to be demons? is that a classical misunderstanding of the people of Khorvaire? And then how is it that they hang around only with true demons like nalfeshnees and sucubi? Shouldn't this creatures chaotic nature interfere in some way with the masterplans of the rakshasas? Thanks in advance
Hellcow 09-05-07, 11:20 PM	if I'm not missing something then I think they should be neutral evil don't you think? Discussion of alignment is a huge issue - there's a number of other threads on it, and it's not something I can get into myself right now (though if anyone else wants to pick it up, please do). PERSONALLY, I look to the law or chaos aspect of alignment as being how a person conducts their life more than a desire to impose a particular viewpoint over the world as a whole. The rakshasa behaves in an organized, careful manner. It prefers to work with other rakshasa, or to at least ensure that it doesn't interfere with their plans, and vice versa... which is to say, adhere to the structure created by its society. Its society is nothing like human society, and it has no problem with sending human civilization spiralling into chaos, but it will do so in a calculated, orderly fashion. This also ties back to the general ambiguity of alignment in Eberron. Just as a good person can do an evil act, a lawful person can perform a chaotic act. The question is what they're most likely to do. I'm actually more strict about NEUTRAL in my campaign than any of the other alignments; I'm much more likely to make the person with minor evil tendancies evil as opposed to neutral, because my personal experience is that it's more interesting to have a very wide spectrum of evil... thus making it hard to isolate the Hitlers and Mother Teresas among the people who are mildly scummy and kind of nice. But that's me. By my outlook, the rakshasas work as LE. If it doesn't fit the way you like alignment, make 'em NE. In any case, why are they considered so much to be demons? If you mean as in "Age of Demons", yes, it's a misunderstanding. It would be more accurate to call it "The Age of Fiends." People just like the word "demon". And then how is it that they hang around only with true demons like nalfeshnees and sucubi? Now you've lost me. Where is it suggested that they hang around with nalfeshnees? Or succubi? Dragon #337 mentions that they associate with a succubus, Thelestes - but this is a rare case of a planar exile joining the LoD, not a sign of a massive rakshasa-succubi alliance. That same article also mentions a pit fiend (LE) as another member of the council - also a rare planar exile. If there is some sort of Nalfeshnee alliance, it's something I'm unfamiliar with, so I can't help you there. Shouldn't this creatures chaotic nature interfere in some way with the masterplans of the rakshasas? Not necessarily. Let's look at Thelestes, the CE succubi. She is a more wild and primal being than the rakshasas. She doesn't like being bound to a 30-step plan; she likes to follow her instincts. But she is, nonetheless, an assassin. More than that, she's an EXCELLENT assassin. She doesn't just kill people at random; she just prefers to follow her instincts instead of being told exactly what to do. She's the commando who has trouble with authority. He's still in the army; the commanders simply know that there will be times when he's going to break from protocol. They allow it because they know that he'll get the job done... and because a good commander will have already anticipated the odds of him deviating from plan and worked into into HIS plan. So some rakshasas won't work with her; others will say "My briliant plan outweighs any improvised twists she may take when carrying it out." But sure, they'd prefer to work with lawfuls... which is one of the reason most LoD are rakshasas, not succubi.
androkguz 09-08-07, 12:31 AM	Well thank you very much. =) The idea of rakshasas and demons working together I think I got it from the Explorer's handbook since Ashtakala seems to be filled with them and with rakshasas, and there's also many Succubi statues in the city I recall. Anyway...
Hellcow 09-08-07, 12:39 AM	Aha! The mystery is solved. I didn't work on Explorer's Handbook, and I don't actually know who developed the Ashtakala writeup. I am guessing that this person assumed that because the Demon Wastes have "demon" in the title, the non-rakshasa fiendish inhabitants should all be tanar'ri. Personally, I consider "demon" to be a misnomer used by commoners who aren't experts in such matters - and as such, I'd put an even mix. Beyond that, if you do use the encounter tables suggested in the EH, this is where I'd suggest that the fiends inhabiting the wastes are native fiends - similar in capabilities to the fiends of the outer planes (so a DW vrock uses the same stats as a Shavarath vrock), but not having any connection to the outer planes; I'd personally change their appearance in some distinct way (perhaps they have the heads of ravens instead of vultures), and say that a K:the Planes check would be suficient to tell them apart. Fiends in the Demon Wastes are local; it's not like the Soldiers of Shavarath would drop by the DW for a little R&R.
Rauric 09-08-07, 01:56 AM	Dude we need a Planar book for Eberron soooo bad. You could discuss the multiple demons types that exist, what devils do in the planes and how talk about the other mostrosities that live in Xoriat.
Hellcow 09-08-07, 02:25 AM	Dude we need a Planar book for Eberron soooo bad. I'd love to write one. But I think D&D Insider articles are more likely than a sourcebook, at least until the 4E business gets sorted out.
Rauric 09-08-07, 09:14 AM	Ok. If there are going to be Planes info in the insider I might have t osign up. I will just drop my WOW account since I stopped playing 5 months ago but still pay for it like an idiot :( .
Amaril 09-08-07, 10:23 AM	I'd love to write one. But I think D&D Insider articles are more likely than a sourcebook, at least until the 4E business gets sorted out. Do you think this will happen during the free preview before 4e is released or after 4e is released and have to pay for D&DI. I'll probably subscribe to D&DI, but I'm just curious.
Hellcow 09-08-07, 03:51 PM	I will just drop my WOW account since I stopped playing 5 months ago but still pay for it like an idiot :( . I've been there. ;) Do you think this will happen during the free preview before 4e is released or after 4e is released and have to pay for D&DI. I don't know. I've been talking to WotC about writing for DDI, and at GenCon it was said that there'd be strong support for Eberron in DDI, but at the moment I'm still waiting to hear.
androkguz 09-08-07, 07:07 PM	Aha! The mystery is solved. I didn't work on Explorer's Handbook, and I don't actually know who developed the Ashtakala writeup. I am guessing that this person assumed that because the Demon Wastes have "demon" in the title, the non-rakshasa fiendish inhabitants should all be tanar'ri. Personally, I consider "demon" to be a misnomer used by commoners who aren't experts in such matters - and as such, I'd put an even mix. Beyond that, if you do use the encounter tables suggested in the EH, this is where I'd suggest that the fiends inhabiting the wastes are native fiends - similar in capabilities to the fiends of the outer planes (so a DW vrock uses the same stats as a Shavarath vrock), but not having any connection to the outer planes; I'd personally change their appearance in some distinct way (perhaps they have the heads of ravens instead of vultures), and say that a K:the Planes check would be suficient to tell them apart. Fiends in the Demon Wastes are local; it's not like the Soldiers of Shavarath would drop by the DW for a little R&R. You don't have to believe me but I did tought for a time that there where no actual tanar'ris in khyber... until I saw that. But thank you, and I agree with the idea of giving us a planar handbook. WE NEED IT!! (by the way, I have some very cool ideas for Fernia and Risia)
Hellcow 09-08-07, 07:13 PM	I have some very cool ideas for Fernia... Something about that doesn't seem right. Are you sure they aren't 'hot' ideas?
androkguz 09-08-07, 07:46 PM	Something about that doesn't seem right. Are you sure they aren't 'hot' ideas? Lol... hot ideas for Fernia and cool ideas for Risia. And I think someone can come out with some smashing ideas for Shavarath...
DragoonDarkfire 09-09-07, 11:58 AM	Lol... hot ideas for Fernia and cool ideas for Risia. And I think someone can come out with some smashing ideas for Shavarath... You could also think up some pretty crazy stuff for Xoriat.
Yadot 09-09-07, 12:20 PM	You could also think up some pretty crazy stuff for Xoriat. Or some neat stuff for Daanvi, hey, I just got a bright idea that could work in Irian. Gotta go.
Revvecor 09-09-07, 12:24 PM	You could also think up some pretty crazy stuff for Xoriat. Don't forget the dreamy ideas from Dal Quor, fleeting ideas from Dolurrh, perfect ideas from Daanvi, bright ideas from Irian, and dark ideas from Mabar!
Belabras 09-09-07, 12:51 PM	*groan*
Revvecor 09-09-07, 02:30 PM	*groan* Sorry :weep: I just wanted to finish them up
ZeroSD 09-10-07, 02:15 AM	I wouldn't mind tossing out some random ideas for Kythri, or some wild ideas for Lammania.
mhacdebhandia 09-10-07, 07:50 PM	Beyond that, I see no reason why you couldn't have archfiends as powerful beings on the planes that make the most sense for them... provided that they serve a logical role on that plane. I wouldn't just say "All the archdevils are generals on Shavarath", because some of them just don't make sense as spirits of war. *seizes the subthread in his teeth and runs with it* First: Baatezu Bel makes absolute perfect sense as a general of Shavarath. Among the Lords of the Nine in the core cosmology, he is the most concerned with the Blood War - especially since his layer, Avernus, is a regular battleground in that conflict. He could perhaps be used as the supreme commander of the diabolical forces in Shavarath, with the Dark Eight (unique pit fiend generals of the diabolical legions) serving under him. Dispater is not as easy to place. It may be simplest to place his city of Dis within one of the realms of Khyber, or alternatively he could find an interesting home in Daanvi as a dark reflection of the rigid, unforgiving rule of Law. Mammon seems a good candidate for his own realm in Khyber, if you were going to make use of him. In some ways, though, his traditional Judaeo-Christian associations with greed and wealth make him a poor fit for Eberron - unless, of course, you were to propose that the Aurum originated as one of his schemes. Fierna and Belial are also hard to use. Despite the volcanic aspect of their layer, I wouldn't place them in Fernia, or really use them - again, they feel very traditional, and to be honest their role is probably better filled by the Lords of Dust per se. Levistus already has a semi-official place as an overlord trapped under Frostfell, but his whole backstory is so tied in to the politics of the Nine Hells that it would be difficult to use him in a meaningful fashion. Nor would I place him in Risia, because his imprisonment makes no sense there either. It might even be best to use the semi-official place and make him a true overlord, though I would change his appearance to make him less human (and, more honestly, wouldn't bother to use him at all). Glasya, like Levistus, is most useful in the context of Baatorian politics. Stripped of that association, her appearance and other interests suggest to me that she'd work well as a commander in Shavarath - perhaps supervising the erinyes she resembles, and overseeing espionage and sabotage against the demons and the archons. Baalzebul also has a great deal to do with the politics of Hell, but we can't ignore his original backstory - he was an archon named Triel who succumbed to the temptations of power and ambition. As a turncoat from the archons' forces he has an interesting role in Shavarath, whether you use (as a consequence of his fall) his transformation into either his original compound-eyed humanoid appearance or his new sluglike form. Mephistopheles could work either as a general in Shavarath or as a powerful fiend in Risia, controlling the gelugons. Asmodeus, to my mind, works best as a fiend with his own realm in Khyber, masterminding a conspiracy which is smaller but, if anything, far more disciplined and farsighted than the average scheme of the Lords of Dust, and definitely aimed at increasing his own power rather than freeing the rajahs (the counterpart of Keith's suggestions concerning Demogorgon).
androkguz 09-12-07, 10:48 PM	*seizes the subthread in his teeth and runs with it* First: Baatezu Bel makes absolute perfect sense as a general of Shavarath. Among the Lords of the Nine in the core cosmology, he is the most concerned with the Blood War - especially since his layer, Avernus, is a regular battleground in that conflict. He could perhaps be used as the supreme commander of the diabolical forces in Shavarath, with the Dark Eight (unique pit fiend generals of the diabolical legions) serving under him. Excelent idea, although, since he is practically a superior Pit Fiend, I think that you could also place him on Fernia serving some LE organization. * Dispater is not as easy to place. It may be simplest to place his city of Dis within one of the realms of Khyber, or alternatively he could find an interesting home in Daanvi as a dark reflection of the rigid, unforgiving rule of Law. Daanvi with Dispatier. * Mammon seems a good candidate for his own realm in Khyber, if you were going to make use of him. In some ways, though, his traditional Judaeo-Christian associations with greed and wealth make him a poor fit for Eberron - unless, of course, you were to propose that the Aurum originated as one of his schemes. I woulnd't use him in Eberron. * Fierna and Belial are also hard to use. Despite the volcanic aspect of their layer, I wouldn't place them in Fernia, or really use them - again, they feel very traditional, and to be honest their role is probably better filled by the Lords of Dust per se. Actually, I would be glad to have them in Fernia as rulers of one of the biggest islands on some of the 12 seas that are on my Fernia. * Levistus already has a semi-official place as an overlord trapped under Frostfell, but his whole backstory is so tied in to the politics of the Nine Hells that it would be difficult to use him in a meaningful fashion. Nor would I place him in Risia, because his imprisonment makes no sense there either. It might even be best to use the semi-official place and make him a true overlord, though I would change his appearance to make him less human (and, more honestly, wouldn't bother to use him at all). I would make him a rakshasa rajah. * Glasya, like Levistus, is most useful in the context of Baatorian politics. Stripped of that association, her appearance and other interests suggest to me that she'd work well as a commander in Shavarath - perhaps supervising the erinyes she resembles, and overseeing espionage and sabotage against the demons and the archons. I would also make her a rakshasa rajah. * Baalzebul also has a great deal to do with the politics of Hell, but we can't ignore his original backstory - he was an archon named Triel who succumbed to the temptations of power and ambition. As a turncoat from the archons' forces he has an interesting role in Shavarath, whether you use (as a consequence of his fall) his transformation into either his original compound-eyed humanoid appearance or his new sluglike form. I have no idea of what would I do with him. * Mephistopheles could work either as a general in Shavarath or as a powerful fiend in Risia, controlling the gelugons. I actually have him as a lord of the Pit fiends in Fernia. He's also got one of the only three known ways to burn fire elementals and salamanders. It's called Hellfire and is very valued by the creatures of the plane, which have this urge of burning everything but can't do it because everything is already burning. * Asmodeus, to my mind, works best as a fiend with his own realm in Khyber, masterminding a conspiracy which is smaller but, if anything, far more disciplined and farsighted than the average scheme of the Lords of Dust, and definitely aimed at increasing his own power rather than freeing the rajahs (the counterpart of Keith's suggestions concerning Demogorgon). And this is one of the most powerful rajahs in my campaing. Asmodeus just which to be freed.
deathbane 09-13-07, 12:53 AM	I would probably have Asmodeus knowing about the fiends on this world and the outer planes, and scheming to use them to eventually take over all plane, but his concern is that they may try to take his place, and if he digs his claws to deep into another plane it may only get him additional resistance, and he already has enough trouble dealing with dragons and adventurers. Mhacdebhandia I am borrowing your other ideas, now you need to get to work on the demon princes so I can borrow those to.:D
Rauric 09-19-07, 12:55 AM	Would Dagon come from Khyber or Xoriat?
deathbane 09-19-07, 11:26 AM	Would Dagon come from Khyber or Xoriat? I would say Khyber. It would be a better fit for him according to the fact that demons are supposed to come to him for information(according to FC 1). If he was in Xoriat they would not be able to reach him.
Rauric 09-20-07, 08:29 AM	I know Hellcow said Obyriths came from Xoriat once.
deathbane 09-20-07, 09:09 AM	I know Hellcow said Obyriths came from Xoriat once. Hellcow for the win. I think we need a Keith Baker compendiim, I also think we need a rewrite of the devils and demons in Eberron since they don't fit like they do in core.
androkguz 09-21-07, 07:00 PM	Hellcow for the win. I think we need a Keith Baker compendiim, I also think we need a rewrite of the devils and demons in Eberron since they don't fit like they do in core. Amen
Lazaro 09-22-07, 04:52 AM	Hellcow for the win. I think we need a Keith Baker compendiim, I also think we need a rewrite of the devils and demons in Eberron since they don't fit like they do in core. While this could a good idea, an Ask Keith Bakerish type thread, especially for newer people to the campaign. I think it would probably wind up like the old thread, with hundreds of questions being asked, but with only a few being answered at a time. Also while Keith is a great source of information on the campaign, what he says are "only his opinions". I also feel as if this would somewhat quash peoples creativity. Why post a thread asking "Where would such and such fit" only to get a response like "go to Keith Baker thread he already answered it".
deathbane 09-22-07, 09:23 AM	While this could a good idea, an Ask Keith Bakerish type thread, especially for newer people to the campaign. I think it would probably wind up like the old thread, with hundreds of questions being asked, but with only a few being answered at a time. Also while Keith is a great source of information on the campaign, what he says are "only his opinions". I also feel as if this would somewhat quash peoples creativity. Why post a thread asking "Where would such and such fit" only to get a response like "go to Keith Baker thread he already answered it". Maybe you're right about the KB thing, but the devils and demons should be rewritten at least, and yugoloths should be included. NE seems to be the hardest evil to fight because they are harder to predict, but they get ignored. I might have to give them their own Loth lords(or whatever the big guys would be called). Some DM's that run pre-written adventures will never have to answer these questions, so creativity may not affect them, but some write their own adventurers, and this slows things down tremendously when certain questions pop up and you have to write fluff before you can continue with your adventure. I understand that Eberron is a DM's campaign, meaning they have more control than most campaigns, and I like that. I don't mind having to decide the answer to the day of mourning, what happened on in Xendrik, why King Jarot felt the need to prepare for a war that may never take place and so on. The issue is that they have demons(which are rashaka's LE), but there is not much word on the traditional demons and devils. Demons could mean demons and devils, but that has never been stated officially. Another thing is do they have to harvest soul, and if they do not then why would they ever bother with mortals anyway? I have answered a lot of questions for myself, but it should not have been necessary. As a comparison Eberron should have been more like one of those mad libs books where you just have to fill in the blanks. Demons and devils have played a major part in the history of most D&D worlds. They even have their own books. WotC just put them on some other plane(in Eberron) and walked away. I don't want to have to decide everything. I barely have time to make adventures, and now I have to have to come up with answers to other questions such as how warforged souls work also etc. A campaign should at least have: mechanics on player races* that are defined so the DM does not have to house rule them (I do understand rule 0 is always there) Iconic figures such as demons, devils, dragons, gods, etc... should be given some history if their roles change from traditional D&D. The dragons were done pretty well, and it seems like the gods have a hands-off approach as opposed to FR. *player races for the sake of this post are the ones that have LA 0 P.S. I am sure I forgot something, but I will just make another post if I remember what it was
Rauric 09-24-07, 08:18 AM	On a side note, I would love to see some good Planes adventures come out of the D&D online thing. Low level, high level whatever can be done. Plus I would love more adventures in general with a Cthuthlu theme if possible. There was a generic D&D adventure in Dungeon using the King in Yellow and the Far Realm that I would love to use with my Eberron game. Any adventure where you have to stop cultists or nutjobs that are trying to muck with Portals is fine by me.
deathbane 09-24-07, 09:06 AM	What is Cthuthlu ? I have seen it on the boards a few time, but I don't know what it is? Is it an adventure from Paizo?
ZeroSD 09-25-07, 03:28 PM	What is Cthuthlu ? I have seen it on the boards a few time, but I don't know what it is? Is it an adventure from Paizo? Cthulhu is a otherworldly godly figure from the works of HP Lovecraft, a horror author from the early 1900s. Lovecraft has inspired a lot of horror authors and his creations like Cthulhu are the inspiriation for a lot of other works (including the Call of Cthulhu roleplaying game). The Far Realms/Xoriat obviously takes a fair amount from them.
androkguz 09-25-07, 03:40 PM	My aproach to demons and devils and the planes and all that evilness is something like this: There's the Rakshasas, the main fiend that comes from the depths of Khyber and that's native to the Material Plane. We all know enought about them so I don't have to be more specific except in one thing: the Rakshasa where experts in magic and they used to summon minions from other planes to make their biding. No tanar'ri is native to the material plane but there's (and specially were in the age of demons) many called ones and the Rakshasa also have some creations of their own that they make using outsiders from other planes. The Night Hags and Aboleths also emerged from khyber and took their part in the AoD. With them came perhaps some other fiends, aberrations and/or monsters. The Tanar'ri and the Baatezu are the fiends that fight each other and the Archons in the battleground of Shavarath. Only tanar'ri demons take the ranks of the Tanar'ri there and only Baatzu devils take the ranks of the baatezu. Warlike being belonging to his races that are not mentioned in the ECS (like the Goristro from FC1) also belong to this plane. This creatures don't need the souls of those in the material plane but could interfere because they believe that every victory and defeat in their plane is reflected in the material and might think that the inverse is true (althought I think that Eberron is not the place for them to interfere too much), or simply because they were called/summoned to do something OR because the material is the only place with dragonshards. There's also a bunch of creatures whose entries in the monster manual show as tanar'ri or baatezu but are not from Shavarath (the pit fiend, the balor, the ice devil, the nalfeshnee, the sucubus, the lemure...). Those creatures are not really tanar'ri/baatezu and the subtype should be removed along with their summon ability which could be changed for something else. They should speak their plane's native languaje (mabar, ignan, risian...) instead of infernal, abyssal or celestial. They could also have a change of aperance or attitude, more likely the former. There's also many outsiders with the subtype Evil over the planes. They are representations of the alingment in their world.
mhacdebhandia 09-26-07, 12:27 AM	Actually, I would be glad to have them in Fernia as rulers of one of the biggest islands on some of the 12 seas that are on my Fernia. The main problem I have with placing Belial and Fierna in Fernia (apart from the similarity of names!) is that they don't really have anything to do with fire. Mhacdebhandia I am borrowing your other ideas, now you need to get to work on the demon princes so I can borrow those to.:D To be perfectly honest, I would use most of them as fiends of Khyber. I will try and come back to this subject when I get home tonight and have access to Fiendish Codex I. :)
Kreistor2 09-26-07, 01:46 PM	Given all of the meta-gaming that surrounds the classic demons, I don't use them as powers in Eberron. A demon might be named "Mephistopheles", for instance, but he's not an uber-demonic demi-god. Using those names telegraphs who is big and bad, and who is just ugly. So, Mephistopheles is a seneschal for a Balor on Fernia. (My party met him last Sat.) I used the basic "Aspect" stats out of Miniatures, and buffed him a few HD because my party is a little high for the Aspect to be a threat. He's still got the same attitudes and personality, just not the power. That way the PC's, if the metagame, are inherently wrong. Doing things like this teaches them to leave previous attitudes at the door.