Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MrAaron 03-17-07, 09:50 AM	I have a few questions regarding The Church of the Silver Flame. First, what is the church's opinion of shifters? I doubt they kill on sight, as they would with a lycanthrope, but do they dislike them or something? Second, isn't the Silver Flame the only actual manifestation of divine power in Eberron? The gods never appear or anything. Why doesn't the Silver Flame have more worshippers if it's the only religion with anything in the real world (Ebberon that is) to back it up? Thanks in advance.
Alex_ 03-17-07, 11:24 AM	Shifters aren't readily trusted and are stigmatized. Not lynched on sight, but I would imagine that in a community with many hardcore members of the Silver Flame, they would not be treated politely, refused service, have people refuse to talk too long to them, see women clutch their children and possessions and go about their business at a hurried pace, and maybe hear a few slurs under someone's breath. The Silver Flame idoes have a physical manifestation, but I don't imagine most members of the faith have ever SEEN it, let alone heard it. They only hear that it exists, and hear the decrees made by the clergy who claim to be able to interpret it's voice. There's plenty of other phenomena in Eberron that can be explained magically and aren't necessarily divine in nature. The messages and values taught by the church also tend towards a more chaste and strict lifestyle compared to other belief systems. The Sovereign Host/Dark Six, however, have a much longer history, which gave it a massive head start in terms of number of worshipers. It also seems to be a pretty inclusive and liberal faith. Doctrine is relatively easy going, with countless denominations and no centralized administration. When they convert those of other faiths, they don't tell you your gods are false and then tell you about the ONE true divine power (like the Silver Flame would), they just tell you how much your god(s) resemble their god(s) and imply that you 2 are basically worshiping the same thing anyway. Plus there's the fact that divine spellcasters of the Host/Six and the Silver Flame can cast spells, and both will claim they get their power from their respective divine sources. The Silver Flame is growing in popularity though. It just isn't close to being as popular as the host/six.
wolffman007 03-17-07, 12:29 PM	i dont recall where i read it, but i thought there are shifters within the silver flame church itself. if i remember correctly, they arent usually associated w/ lycanthropes, yes everyone knows they are descended from them, but they arent them shifters as a rule are sort of considered brutish/rude & such, you wouldnt expect to see them in high society
yrogerg 03-17-07, 12:45 PM	i dont recall where i read it, but i thought there are shifters within the silver flame church itself. if i remember correctly, they arent usually associated w/ lycanthropes, yes everyone knows they are descended from them, but they arent them shifters as a rule are sort of considered brutish/rude & such, you wouldnt expect to see them in high society Well, many shifters dispute the origins of lycanthropes, claiming that early lycanthropes were cursed Shifters, not vice versa.
MrAaron 03-17-07, 12:49 PM	Okay, thanks guys
Teron Gorefiend 03-17-07, 03:54 PM	For the record, the Aereni also have an "earthly god" in the form of the Undying Court. While the individual members are no match for an elder dragon, collectively they possess power on a deific level. Their influence is limited to Aerenal, but it's enough to force a stalemate with the dragons. As for shifters, a small number actually worship the Silver Flame, usually because their ancestors joined or helped during the Purge to prove their benign nature. In general, they're more likely to be treated as untrustworthy bumpkins than actually feared. What Alex_ described would mostly happen, as he said, in communities of "hardcore" Flamists - especially the puritans of Aundair. Elsewhere, they'll mostly have to deal with condescension and a hard time getting good prices or decent jobs, and that kind of treatment won't come only - or even mostly - from followers of the Silver Flame. That's not universal either, of course; some people are more open-minded. The main thing to remember is that reactions will vary within any given community, and there will always be someone willing to be fair and someone hellbent on making a shifter's life miserable.
Bluebrush 03-17-07, 05:50 PM	People at large know the difference between a shifter and a lycanthrope. Even backwater farmers know and won't be running to the local priest for aid when a shifter comes to town. However they are stigmatised, partially because of their heratige, partially because of their uncivilised nature (That Int and Cha penalty is no biggie for a PC, but a big problem sociologically) and, in Aundair, for the Eldeen Reaches situation. Some shifters did work with the silver flame during the Lycanthrope purge, and doubtless there's a load in the faithful today, but most have an ambivalent attitude towards the flame, which probably caused a lot of the stigma. As to believers, plenty of people beileve in divine beings they cannot see or objectively prove in our world, never mind that we don't have clerics castings spells and making vampires heads explode with positive energy. As mentioned, the popularity of the host is down to it's long history and inclusiveness. That and it's somewhat ubiquitous nature. (The host is supposed to be manifest in all civilisation, so it's followers exist where civilisation does.) Also, yes, there is the undying court as well. Note that the existance of clerics probably means that few people doubted the existance of the divine even before the silver flame religion began, even Eberron's aetheists must acknowledge there is some source of divine power in the universe, though they can argue over what this source is.
Trollbasher 03-17-07, 06:44 PM	As a whole most people that worship the silver flame wouldnt view shifters in negative light becuase they were shifters. Because theybelieve 'that living a life of virtue is the greastest gift a mortal has to offer.' Not saying you wouldnt have you normal number of speciecist among them.
mhacdebhandia 03-18-07, 07:16 PM	First, what is the church's opinion of shifters? I doubt they kill on sight, as they would with a lycanthrope, but do they dislike them or something? The church has no negative position on the shifter race, officially. Unofficially, there is a human-supremacist minority among the Purified who would have the same problem with shifters as with anyone else. There is also probably a minority of historically-minded clerics who feel defensive about the church's persecution of lycanthropes, who might have a negative reaction to shifters as a consequence of their association with those creatures. Basically, if you wanted to have a member of the Church of the Silver Flame who was prejudiced against shifters, it's not too hard to justify it. A hardline Purified cleric might argue that the taint of lycanthropy applies to the shifter race, as well, and that their abilities are a sinful legacy of their bestial heritage. Second, isn't the Silver Flame the only actual manifestation of divine power in Eberron? The gods never appear or anything. Why doesn't the Silver Flame have more worshippers if it's the only religion with anything in the real world (Ebberon that is) to back it up? Every cleric of every other religion in Eberron can cast spells as a Purified cleric does. I think the overwhelming "evidence" of this kind outweighs a pretty pillar of fire in Flamekeep - which is not, after all, uncontrovertible evidence of the existence of the universal purifying and binding force that the Church of the Silver Flame reveres. They say it's a manifestation of the true, transcendent Silver Flame, but couldn't it just be a powerful magical effect resulting from the binding of the great demon performed by the couatl and Tira Miron - who was, after all, a paladin of Dol Arrah in life? There are probably theologians of the Sovereign Host who argue that the pillar of flame in Flamekeep is, indeed, a manifestation of divine power - but it's a manifestation of the power of Dol Arrah, which the Church of the Silver Flame mistakenly reveres as something separate from that goddess. A real-world analogy to this way of thinking would be Messianic Judaism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism), which agrees with mainstream Christianity that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah but tries to remain within the Jewish religious tradition. The difference would be, I think, that the inclusive and absorptionist nature of the Sovereign Host would make such an argument more attractive to the Vassals than the argument of Messianic Judaism is to mainstream Jews or Christians. ;)
The Dreaming Duck 03-19-07, 05:06 PM	Second, isn't the Silver Flame the only actual manifestation of divine power in Eberron? The gods never appear or anything. Why doesn't the Silver Flame have more worshippers if it's the only religion with anything in the real world (Ebberon that is) to back it up? As others have said, the flame in Flamekeep isn't THE flame; the Silver Flame has been holding back demons since the Age of Demons. Beyond that, as "divine manifestations" go... it's, um, a silver flame. Pretty. But the priestess of Dol Arrah can create continual flames too. It's not like the flame in Flamekeep talks to people or performs miracles - it's not like the Undying Court, where you can actually go and speak before the court. I don't see the fact that the SF has a pretty eternal flame really shaking the faith of members of other religions, since everburning fire isn't that rare a thing. As for shifters, as others have said, you have the puritians in Aundair and the minority group mentioned in Thrane, but the Church itself has no official position. Shifters were accidentally targeted in the purge, and that's created bad blood on both sides - but it's not a matter of doctrine or anything like that, and as people have said, there are shifters who revere the Flame.
Bluebrush 03-19-07, 06:33 PM	It's not like the flame in Flamekeep talks to people or performs miracles.Sure it does. There's the voice of the flame and the bit where it elevates little kids to become subepic clerics in it's prescence.
Alex_ 03-20-07, 01:34 AM	Note that the existance of clerics probably means that few people doubted the existance of the divine even before the silver flame religion began, even Eberron's aetheists must acknowledge there is some source of divine power in the universe, though they can argue over what this source is. I don't know if they would identify it as DIVINE though. Wizards, Sorcerers, Bards, and countless other classes cast magic as well. When a "divine" caster claims they are geting their powers from some divine source, they could simply be tapping into some alternate source of magic like Psionics, Incarnum users, or Arcanists- not necessarily fulfilling the wishes of some being or aware force of great power upon which the fate of the world depends. Afterall, all clerics, no matter what faith they follow can cast spells. There a great many contradictory beliefs out there, and for ALL of them to be able to grant spellcasting powers, either all of them are correct (difficult to conceive) or divine beings have nothing to do with it.
The Dreaming Duck 03-20-07, 12:16 PM	There's the voice of the flame and the bit where it elevates little kids to become subepic clerics in it's prescence. As far as I understand it, the Voice of the Flame is a spiritual force that speaks to people directly; it's not a physical voice that emanates from the flame IN Flamekeep. It can "speak" to mortals ANYWHERE in Eberron. Your point about the power increase is an excellent one, but the power increase is throughout Flamekeep, and more important, it affects one person. My sole point is that the physical manifestation of the flame in Flamekeep is insufficient to change my faith in another religion. You have a CLERIC who can perform great miracles in the PRESENCE of the flame; but the flame itself does nothing that I can visibly perceive. Meanwhile, Lan Hazal performs miracles in Sharn and Malevenor performs miracles in Atur. Clerics and adepts are ALL manifestations of the power of the divine, and as long as a cleric of my deity can perform miracles in the name of my deity... the fact that you've got a Flame in your central temple and I don't isn't going to shatter my faith.
The Dreaming Duck 03-20-07, 12:33 PM	There a great many contradictory beliefs out there... Actually... There really aren't. One of the remarkable things about Eberron is that there AREN'T dozens of contradictory pantheons. Consider the following: There is one creation myth. To the best of my knowledge, NONE of the common religions - Sovereign Host, Blood of Vol, Silver Flame, Path of Light, Undying Court, Druidic faiths - attribute the creation of the world to their deities. Everyone accepts the myth of the progenitor dragons. There's no contradiction. The Silver Flame doesn't deny the existence of the Sovereigns; on the contrary, Tira Miron was a paladin of Dol Arrah. The Blood of Vol acknowledges the Sovereigns and blames them for death. The Path of Light has no connection to any deities, nor does it deny their existence. The Undying Court is a self-generated divine force, but it again doesn't deny the existence of the sovereigns. The major faiths are found in divergent cultures. The Sovereign Host as we know it apparently comes from the Sarlonan kingdom of Pyrine. But the reason it's so successful at encompassing the faiths of other cultures is that those faiths are already almost identical. Secrets of Xen'drik emphasizes that you can find temples to the Sovereigns in Xen'drik - that the giants may have called the Lord of Light and Law Ouralon instead of Aureon, but that a priest of the Sovereign Host will recognize the symbols and will be able to use the rituals of the giants to prepare new spells in the present day. Likewise, the Silver Flame is found in ancient Khalesh, in the Ghaash'kala orcs, and in Thrane - different cultures drawing on the same force. Keith Baker's emphasized this a number of times - that you CAN devise your own religions, but that it is far easier for a cleric to gain divine powers if he draws on a force similar to one of the Sovereigns or Silver Flame - that the reason these faiths are found across the world is essentially spiritual evolution. If you're going to worship a god of the hunt, your prayers are more likely to be answered if you call him a name that sounds something like "Balinor" and use a symbol like Balinor's. Essentially, in FR you have a dozen different gods of nature... but in Eberron, there's every indication that there is a single god of nature, but he's willing to answer to a variety of different names, as long as they are on the right track. Yes, you can CREATE contradictory religions, but those are essentially small, isolated sects. The major religions, found in different cultures across history, aren't actually contradictory.
Syltorian 03-20-07, 12:46 PM	There is one creation myth. To the best of my knowledge, NONE of the common religions - Sovereign Host, Blood of Vol, Silver Flame, Path of Light, Undying Court, Druidic faiths - attribute the creation of the world to their deities. Everyone accepts the myth of the progenitor dragons. According to PGtE (p.31), the Traveler, Aureon and Onatar are occasionally credited with creating the world. Although, admittedly, they are not part of the dogma. Not that this changes much to your main argument, as creation myths are not all that important compared to the other arguments you bring.
The Dreaming Duck 03-20-07, 05:03 PM	According to PGtE (p.31), the Traveler, Aureon and Onatar are occasionally credited with creating the world. Although, admittedly, they are not part of the dogma. My bad. Though as you say, this isn't part of the major dogma of the faith (as shown by the fact that Aureon and Onatar are part of the same pantheon, and that it's not called out in the other books). What this highlights is the fact that the Sovereign Host incorporates many variations. The Restful Watch reveres Aureon and the Keeper, and they claim that the Keeper is a benevolent being who hoards the souls of heroes to save them from the dissolution of Dolurrh. But this is nonetheless a subsect of the Sovereign Host, dealing with the same deities. It views the Keeper in a different light, but it's still the Keeper, not Bonal-Golakk the Devourer of Souls. So there are sects that attribute the creation of the world to to Onatar, Aureon, or the Traveler, but I would assume that these are on par with the Restful Watch. Essentially, all I'm saying is that in comparison to a realm where you have Norse gods, Egyptian Gods, African Gods - where the war god in each pantheon will have a different personality, different holy symbol, different favored weapon - the subsects of the Sovereign Host still worship, in essence, the same deities. They may focus on a few of the sovereigns over the others (the Restful Watch just doesn't involve Dol Dorn in any significant way) - but they are still seen as subsects of the Sovereign Host, not separate religions. So with that in mind, fair enough, there ARE contradictions out there - but the common elements far outweigh the differences. You believe that the Keeper saves the souls of heroes; I believe that the Keeper torments the souls that he capture. But we both believe in the Keeper, we both use similar symbols for him, and we both recognize the dracolich as one of his forms. In fact - again, to the best of my knowledge, and I may very well be wrong - there's no god of death aside from the Keeper. The Blood of Vol doesn't worship a god of death; they fight against death. You might find a CotDB cult or Carrion Tribe worshipping Katashka the Gatekeeper, but he's a rajah, not a god. The Silver Flame doesn't deny the existence of the Sovereigns or Six, even if its followers don't worship the Sovereigns. The sole god of death out there is the Keeper. We may tell different stories about him... but he's still recognizably the Keeper. This is where Eberron is both like and unlike our world. We can't PROVE the gods exist. We can't ever meet them. As a result, there are many variations of faiths, variant myths, variant sects, and people debating doctrine and creed. At the same time, people who seek to personify the force of order and magic have discovered that if they call on a name something like "Aureon" or "Ourelon", and use something like the Octogram or Aureon's symbol - or for that matter a blue dragon - you're more likely to get your prayers answered than if you worship a god named "Gruvel" with the symbol of a shoe. It's that idea of spiritual evolution - that the Sovereign Host is as predominant as it is BECAUSE it is an easy past to divine power, and that over the course of tens of thousands of years the Sovereign-worshippers have supplanted people who worshipped other gods who didn't answer prayers. We don't know if Aureon is a god, an embodiment of the collective unconscious, an ascended dragon, or something else. But we know that prayers to Aureon/Ourelon/Aurilan/etc are more likely to be answered than those made to Gruvel the Shoe (though with that said, it's true that it is possible for an exceptional person who has an AMAZING degree of faith in Gruvel the Shoe to gain cleric abilities). So the reason I don't see the existence of a physical flame in Flamekeep as sufficient reason to steer people away from other faiths is because those faiths are based on millenia of miracles and answered prayers. As long as prayers to Aureon are still answered - I don't see the flame itself as miraculous enough to destroy the established faiths.
Alex_ 03-20-07, 07:17 PM	Actually... There really aren't. One of the remarkable things about Eberron is that there AREN'T dozens of contradictory pantheons. [quote] Not the pantheons, but rather the beliefs following the faiths. The faith of the Silver Flame and Soverign Host/Dark Six cannot coincide with say, the faith of the Blood of Vol(there are no gods to pray to), Lord of Blades (literally hero worship) or the Inspired faith (essentially Quori worship, with Quorri not being divine at all). Yet these faiths can generate "divine" spellcasters just as much as the other. [quote] There is one creation myth. To the best of my knowledge, NONE of the common religions - Sovereign Host, Blood of Vol, Silver Flame, Path of Light, Undying Court, Druidic faiths - attribute the creation of the world to their deities. Everyone accepts the myth of the progenitor dragons. There's no contradiction. The Silver Flame doesn't deny the existence of the Sovereigns; on the contrary, Tira Miron was a paladin of Dol Arrah. The Blood of Vol acknowledges the Sovereigns and blames them for death. The Path of Light has no connection to any deities, nor does it deny their existence. The Undying Court is a self-generated divine force, but it again doesn't deny the existence of the sovereigns. The Blood of Vol does not believe in the existence of the Host/Six- or any deity. The Sovereign does not acknowledge the Quori as deities as their worshipers do. Druids do not identify the existence of any deity. The Silver Flame denies the inherent divinity of the blood or that divinity can be attained in the manner espoused by the Blood of Vol. The path of Light doesn't hold belief in other deities, but recognizes the utility of religion, and as such, tolerates other differing beliefs for the sake of their beneficial effects on communities. The major faiths are found in divergent cultures. The Sovereign Host as we know it apparently comes from the Sarlonan kingdom of Pyrine. But the reason it's so successful at encompassing the faiths of other cultures is that those faiths are already almost identical. Secrets of Xen'drik emphasizes that you can find temples to the Sovereigns in Xen'drik - that the giants may have called the Lord of Light and Law Ouralon instead of Aureon, but that a priest of the Sovereign Host will recognize the symbols and will be able to use the rituals of the giants to prepare new spells in the present day. And the same cultures also developed social behaviors, agriculture, metal working, etc. There are similarities between the races themselves- not just religion. When you find a Xendrik ruin and a temple devoted to gods, not only are the gods similar to those worshiped by humans, but the establishment of a building to worship anything, the use of stairs, the use of stone, the fact that they have a community are all very much like humans as well. Sure the style of the architecture and dimensions might be different, but it is essentially the same as a human building. Similar beliefs seem to be part of a larger pattern of the humanoid races being very similar in mindset. The similarities between faiths is not an anomaly in this case, but a natural extension of every races' tendency to do things in a similar manner, no matter when and where they are. And of course vassals of the host will find similarities to their faiths. They think everything is divine and is evidence of their gods. The very existence of the universe is direct evidence their deities exist. Likewise, the Silver Flame is found in ancient Khalesh, in the Ghaash'kala orcs, and in Thrane - different cultures drawing on the same force. They are in some ways similar, but do not draw upon the same force. The Ghaash'kala and faith of the Khalesh were generated in complete ignorance and lack of proximity/access to the phenomena that spawned the Silver Flame faith. Keith Baker's emphasized this a number of times - that you CAN devise your own religions, but that it is far easier for a cleric to gain divine powers if he draws on a force similar to one of the Sovereigns or Silver Flame - that the reason these faiths are found across the world is essentially spiritual evolution. If you're going to worship a god of the hunt, your prayers are more likely to be answered if you call him a name that sounds something like "Balinor" and use a symbol like Balinor's. Your survival skill modifier and roll (amongst others) is going to tell you how successful your hunt will be, not who you prayed to. Deities don't fudge the dice and rules in Eberron, so statistically speaking, there's no correlation between who a character prays to, and the results. A vassal of the host may think your prayer is more likely to be answered if you pray to Balinor, but I'm sure plenty of more accomplished/successful hunters who don't worship Balinor would say likewise. Yes, you can CREATE contradictory religions, but those are essentially small, isolated sects. The major religions, found in different cultures across history, aren't actually contradictory. And they ALL get spell casting abilities. I could create a character that says his faith is that he himself is the manifestation of a divine being. All other forces worshiped are aspects of his personality. It can be total BS, but if enough people believe it and believe it hard enough, eventually some divine spellcasters will show up, suggesting that they draw their spells directly from him.
The Dreaming Duck 03-20-07, 10:31 PM	Not the pantheons, but rather the beliefs following the faiths. The faith of the Silver Flame and Soverign Host/Dark Six cannot coincide with say, the faith of the Blood of Vol(there are no gods to pray to)... But they can, and do. The faith of the Blood of Vol is predicated on the existence OF the Sovereign Host. Page 95 of Sharn: City of Towers - "(The followers of the Blood of Vol) believe in the existence of the gods of the Sovereign Host - and despise them." The followers of the Blood of Vol don't worship the Sovereigns. But they don't deny their existence. The existence of the BoV and the power of its clerics does not present any form of contradiction to the existence of the Sovereign Host. The Lord of Blades is an example of the sort of variant sect that can exist, but again, the existence of this faith doesn't require that the Sovereigns or Flame don't exist, and beyond that, there are a few thousand LoB worshippers as compared to millions of Sovereign worshippers. Count the number of screwball sects you can find in our world! We may be arguing entirely different points here. If you're saying that people can have different beliefs and still get divine power, I'm not arguing. What I am saying is that the primary, mainstream religions of Eberron - religions with hundreds of thousands of followers - do not actually contradict one another. The Silver Flame is a force composed of noble spirits; the existence of this force in no way contradicts the existence of the Sovereigns, and followers of the SH can work side by side with, say, followers of Dol Arrah. The faith of the Blood of Vol presumes the existence of the Sovereign Host, even though the followers of the BoV follow an entirely different path. The Path of Light follows no god, but neither does it deny the existence of any gods: it is purely based on the movement towards the next age. The Undying Court is an assembly of mortals risen to divinity. What I am arguing is the word contradiction. The major faiths of Eberron can largely coexist without cosmological contradiction, even if their followers disagree. The Blood of Vol does not believe in the existence of the Host/Six- or any deity. Please see the quote above. Followers don't WORSHIP any deity. That doesn't mean that they don't believe that those deities exist. In fact, the faith REQUIRES that those deities exist. The The Silver Flame denies the inherent divinity of the blood... Can you show me one thing that conclusively states this is the case? Case in point, what the followers of the Silver Flame believe is that noble souls join together to produce the Flame. Therefore, there is a divine spirit in every living creature. The Blood of Vol, essentially, believes.... that there is a divine spirit in every living creature. Their practices are different but NOT contradictory. Many earthly religions conclusively state "There is no god but X." If you assume that their thesis is correct, it is IMPOSSIBLE for the other religion to be true. That's not the case here: The Silver Flame doesn't deny the existence of any god; it simply doesn't encourage its followers to worship them. The Blood of Vol doesn't deny the existence of any god; it simply encourages its followers to FIGHT them. The Silver Flame believes that there is a divine essence within all living creatures. Far from contradicting the core beliefs of the Blood of Vol, these are essentially the same belief. The critical difference is that the BoV states that this essence is irretrievably lost at the moment of death; the Silver Flame believes that it can be preserved by joining the flame. Variations on the theme, but both tied to the same principle. Essentially, the BoV just don't have the faith the SF does that that spark can be preserved. Difference of opinion and practice, yes. But not the impossible to resolve conflicts that you get between many of our religions. There are similarities between the races themselves- not just religion. When you find a Xendrik ruin and a temple devoted to gods, not only are the gods similar to those worshiped by humans, but the establishment of a building to worship anything, the use of stairs, the use of stone, the fact that they have a community are all very much like humans as well. Sure the style of the architecture and dimensions might be different, but it is essentially the same as a human building. OK, let me just make sure I understand your point here, because it just doesn't make any sense to me. Giants and humans are similar in many ways. Agreed. Nothing strange here. Giants and humans both practice agriculture, magic, build houses, temples, etc. Right. No problem so far. Essentially, giants are no different than a human culture found halfway across the world from another human culture. Fine. We go to Xen'drik and find something that we recognize as a temple. Fine. The giants had religion, and even clerics. Again, nothing strange here. BUT... now we find that the temple is dedicated to a god of law and magic... like our own. We find that he is represented by a blue dragon, an eight-pointed cross, and an open book - all symbols that look remarkably like our own. We find that his name is almost identical to the name WE use for our god, despite the vast difference between our two languages. We find that they have a similar myth concerning the god's evil shadow, which embodies the dark side of magic. We find religious rituals that the giants used in their ceremonies to their "Ourelon", and discover that if we sub in "Aureon" and use these rituals ourselves, we get new magic. Our god answers prayers written forty-thousand years ago by these priests. Yet this culture is half a world away from us, on a continent that has never had a human population, and which was destroyed tens of thousands of years before our culture arose from savagery. Are you telling me there's nothing strange about that? In our world, you can find, say, a nature god in most pantheistic cultures. And sure, it's easy for an invading culture to say "They're just using the wrong name - they meant to worship our god." But that's not the case here. They were already using, for all intents and purposes, the RIGHT name, and already using the same symbol. Why did they decide to use a BLUE dragon? Why not gold? Similar beliefs seem to be part of a larger pattern of the humanoid races being very similar in mindset. Right. For different humanoid cultures to say "There's a nature goddess. There's a war god. There's a god of the hunt." There's absolutely nothing strange about that. But when cultures that not only have had no contact with one another but which are actually different SPECIES all give their god of the hunt similar names (Balinor, Banor, Baalkan, to name three of the different names of Balinor that we've seen) and all use variations of the same symbols and rituals - rituals similar enough that a cleric can perform the rituals of another culture and gain spells from them? THAT'S unusual. They are in some ways similar, but do not draw upon the same force. The Ghaash'kala and faith of the Khalesh were generated in complete ignorance and lack of proximity/access to the phenomena that spawned the Silver Flame faith. I could not disagree with you more. What "phenomena spawned the Silver Flame faith"? If you go back far enough, it was the war between the rakshasa lords and the Couatl-Dragon alliance. The couatls sacrificed their immortal spirits to create the spiritual force that could bind the demon overlords... the Silver Flame. This gives us two elements: couatl and demon overlords. The couatl - or at least their shulassakar devotees - were present in Khalesh. This gives Khalesh a direct connection to the phenomena that spawned the Silver Flame itself. They were dedicated to the PRINCIPLES of the Silver Flame: defending the innocent, and containing and combatting the forces of evil. The Ghaash'kala believe in the "Binding Flame", the force that holds the demons at bay. They believe that their souls will strengthen the Flame on death. They dedicate their lives to fighting and containing evil. And they sit on the edge of a place where demon overlords are bound... by the Silver Flame. The foundation of their faith is, again, the same phenomena as the modern faith of Thrane. Then we get to Tira Miron. The event that caused the manifestation of the physical silver flame in Flamekeep was a rakshasa overlord escaping from the Flame and being forced back into its bonds by Tira and a couatl spirit. Rakshasa... Couatl... bound by the Flame... the phenomena that created all of this occured in the Age of Demons, not in the 3rd century YK. Could the Ghaash'kala orc recite the Seven Hymns to the Flame? No, of course not. But the POWER that he worships, and the fundamental values of his religion are identical. He serves the spiritual force that holds the ancient demons at bay, represented by a flame empowered by noble spirits and served by feathered serpents. He dedicates his life to battling supernatural evil and protecting the innocent. He serves the Silver Flame, just as the giant hunter of Banor and the orc hunter of Baalkan revere the Sovereign of Horn and Hunt. Your survival skill modifier and roll (amongst others) is going to tell you how successful your hunt will be, not who you prayed to. When I speak of prayers actually being answered, I'm talking about divine magic. What's been stated is that clerics have an easier time getting spells from the Sovereigns than from random concepts that only one or two people believe in. You can start your own religion, sure. But it's not easy. I could create a character that says his faith is that he himself is the manifestation of a divine being. All other forces worshiped are aspects of his personality. YOU, as a player in D&D, could. But why aren't there more religions like this in Eberron? Because it's hard to generate power from such a faith. Eberron makes it POSSIBLE for you to have any religion you want - but it also gives every indication that there ARE powers that provide an easy path to divine power, whether they are gods or not.
Hellcow 03-20-07, 11:06 PM	Just to add my two crowns... I could create a character that says his faith is that he himself is the manifestation of a divine being. All other forces worshiped are aspects of his personality. YOU, as a player in D&D, could. But why aren't there more religions like this in Eberron? Because it's hard to generate power from such a faith. Eberron makes it POSSIBLE for you to have any religion you want - but it also gives every indication that there ARE powers that provide an easy path to divine power, whether they are gods or not. The Dreaming Duck has essentially summed up my opinion on this, with the idea of "divine evolution". In Eberron, it is possible for anyone with sufficient faith to gain access to divine power. But the key there is sufficient faith. It my opinion, it takes amazing devotion to channel any sort of divine force - which is a key reason why in Eberron many priests aren't adepts or clerics, but rather experts or commoners. You don't have to perform miracles - which is essentially what divine magic is - to serve as a priest, and in Eberron anyone who can channel divine power IS remarkable. So: it takes an amazing about of faith, dedication, and devotion to channel divine magic - a spiritual soul few people possess. However, as it turns out, it is easier to perform miracles if your shape your prayers in certain ways. That's where "evolution" comes in. Has every culture with a god of the hunt had a "Balinor"-y name? Of course not. I'm sure that there were cultures that worshipped Gresh of the Green Shadows, Sybalin Spearmaiden, or who know what else. But these cultures produced very few adepts and clerics... while those who worked an eight-pointed cross into their rituals, who called the god by a name like "Balinor", who depicted their god as a stalking green dragon - they found that miracles came more easily. Thus the cultures with these beliefs prospered and spread, while those following Gresh and Sybalin faded. Thus, when the Pyrinean missionaries came to Khorvaire, they found the Talenta Halflings and Orcs of the Shadow Marches already worshipping their own versions of Balinor, and when humans came to Xen'drik, they found temples to Banor. As the Dreaming Duck has said, this doesn't mean Balinor is a god. It may be that the reason it's easier to draw power from "Balinor" is because so many other people do it - that you're drawing power from the shared devotion of all of the people that have worshipped this concept. On the other hand, perhaps it DOES mean Balinor is a god (though if so, it's worth noting that the giants worshipped Banor long before humanity worshipped Balinor, so "Balinor" may not be his "true" name). All that can be said is that there is a solid REASON that the Sovereign Host is as widespread as it is... because clerics and adepts are more likely to receive spells if they prayer to a sovereign archetype. As a player - or as a DM - you are free to create whatever crazy religions you want. But this is something that takes a remarkable person - like a player character. If *I* decided I was god tomorrow, I wouldn't be casting divine magic by the weekend. There are probably hundreds of odd cults in Eberron, but only a few have every touched the divine to such an extent that they can channel divine magic. There's no PROOF of the existence of the Sovereigns... but the predominance of the archetypes across cultures that have had no contact is certainly an interesting phenomena. Looking to the question of "contradiction", I think the two of you are arguing semantics. Alex_ is correct that a follower of the Silver Flame will dismiss the BoV's claims that "Blood is divinity" as ludicrous. However, the Dreaming Duck is correct in saying that the underlying principles of the religions don't contradict one another, and in fact on some level support one another. The PEOPLE of Eberron may disagree... but the religions themselves aren't actually exclusive. The Silver Flame was born from the sacrifice of the Couatl, and is (according to doctrine) empowered by the souls of the noble dead; nothing about this denies the possible existence of the Sovereigns, the movement towards the turn of the age pursued by the Path of Light, or the Blood of Vol's believe that the war against death is the purpose of life. Just because a follower of the Path of Light doesn't care about or believe in the Sovereigns doesn't mean that his faith REQUIRES the Sovereigns not to exist; the Sovereigns are completely irrelevent in his cosmology. According to PGtE (p.31), the Traveler, Aureon and Onatar are occasionally credited with creating the world. For what it's worth, I didn't write this bit; I actually intentionally left the Sovereign Host OUT of the creation biz, for reasons that may become clearer later this year. I have no quarrel with it, because there are many subsects and variations of the SH - but I agree that these are not part of the common, central doctrine of the SH. The story of the Progenitor Dragons is a common theme found throughout most cultures. As for the Blood of Vol... Yes, by my design (as seen in Sharn), the followers of the Blood of Vol do believe in the Sovereign Host. One of the key aspects of the Blood of Vol is the question "What just god would allow death and suffering?" - with the answer being "None - therefore the gods are unjust." The Sovereigns afflicted mortals with the curse of mortality to prevent them from rising to the level of the gods - and that struggle to overcome the curse and to attain the full divinity bound within the blood is the core of the faith. So yes, the BoV doesn't worship the Sovereigns - but the Sovereigns do play a role in the faith. And as for the Silver Flame, again, it's semantics. Alex_ is correct that a Khaleshite knight/Shulassakar paladin/Ghaash'kala ghost guardian doesn't perform the same rites and rituals as a Mironite monk, and won't recognize the Keeper of the Flame or the importance of the flame in Flamekeep. The Voice of the Flame, born of Tira's sacrifice, was born to speak to the people of Khorvaire. But each of these cultures found their OWN Voice, and each is bound to the Flame in their own way. The Sovereigns may be theoretical, but the Silver Flame IS an existing force - the force binding the Overlords of the Age of Demons. And Shulassakar, Ghaash'kala, Khashite, and Mironite all touch that force in their own way, and are all inspired to use its power for the same overall goals. There undoubtedly are aspects of each faith that do conflict with each other; the Mironite monk may see the Ghaash'kala orc as a savage with no understanding of the true ways of the Flame, and the Shulassakar will feel the same way about the flawed human. But at the end of the day, their faiths are all derived from the same source and have more in common than they do apart. At least, that's MY opinion. As always, you're entitled to your own. ;)
The Dreaming Duck 03-21-07, 12:02 PM	Looking to the question of "contradiction", I think the two of you are arguing semantics. Alex_ is correct that a follower of the Silver Flame will dismiss the BoV's claims that "Blood is divinity" as ludicrous. However, the Dreaming Duck is correct in saying that the underlying principles of the religions don't contradict one another. This was all I was trying to say. I understand that the typical follower of the Silver Flame and the follower of the Blood of Vol wouldn't sit down at a table and say "You know, our religions actually have a lot of overlapping principles"; on the contrary, the Silver Flame sees the use of undead as an evil that must be fought, while the BoV sees the SF as refusing to face the true enemy. However, looking beyond the behavior of the follower to the fundamental principles of the religion, both religions can exist in Eberron without fundamental, cosmological contradiction. The BoV believes in a divine spark within mortals; so does the Silver Flame. Where they differ is whether that can be preserved after death and whether it has an ultimate potential that's lost because of death. But both are predicated on the divine spark of life, and even the Silver Flame's afterlife doesn't erradicate the principles of the BoV; it simply means that the SF - if their beliefs are correct - have found a way to escape the fate feared by the BoV. Beyond that, looking to the faith of the Inspired, I'll note that even there, the Path of Inspiration doesn't deny the existence of the Sovereigns - which is to say, the beings that empower clerics of the Sovereign Host. What it says is that these are altavars, powerful evil spirits. So yes, the follower of the path and the follower of the Sovereigns violently disagree about the nature of the deities... but from a purely abstracted level, both agree that there ARE powerful forces that grant divine magic to their priests. The Riedran doesn't deny the existence of Boldrei; he simply says that Boldrei is an evil spirit, and that the cleric who deals with her is corrupting his soul in the process. Again, my major point is that in FR, we have a dozen distinctly different pantheons, and we have statistics for their different gods. In theory, you could have Thor and Horus get into a fight with one another. You don't have that in Eberron. Balinor, Banor, and Baalkan aren't going to get into a fight, because from all appearances, they're one and the same. The BoV and Riedran faith don't deny the existence of Balinor/Banor/Baalkan; rather, they both say that Balinor exists, but he's a foul being deceiving his worshippers. The Silver Flame, Path of Light, and Undying Court simply don't care whether Balinor exists or not. No part of SF doctrine requires that the Sovereigns not exist; there's simply no belief that the Sovereigns should be worshipped. Essentially, within the major cultures, we just don't see the same "There is no god but my god, my god created the world in this way, therefore it's IMPOSSIBLE for your philosophy to be correct" or the "We have five different cultures, and five radically different interpretations of a particular archetypal concept" foundation you see in many earthly religions. Yes, there are MANY instances of "You've got the wrong idea about this god, about the afterlife, etc" - contradictory opinions in the minds of humans. But again, whether the Keeper is saving the souls of heroes or condemning souls to torment, whether he's a god or a powerful demon - there's no religion which simply says "You're wrong, there's NOTHING out there, it's all your imagination..." or even that there's a different god of the dead that has nothing in common with the Keeper.
taski 03-21-07, 05:42 PM	Personally, and respectfully to Hellcow, I don't really like the idea of the Sovereigns being everywhere. If you know to expect a temple to pseudo-Balinor in the Lost City of Ib, you're robbed of some of the mystery of Ib. If instead you find that the people of Ib worship strange, alien gods you can barely wrap your mind around, you, well, get that Lovecraftian mood that I do so like to have in my game. Also, I DM a historian. It would really disappoint him if every culture believed in basically the same gods. There would be so much less to discover about them. Additionally, you don't really need every religion to acknowledge the fact that clerics of different religions gain power from something. Humans, and I presume other humanoids, have a great knack for denial. ...but that's just my cynical, contrary, convoluted game. :coolcthul
Hellcow 03-21-07, 06:15 PM	If instead you find that the people of Ib worship strange, alien gods you can barely wrap your mind around, you, well, get that Lovecraftian mood that I do so like to have in my game. And I love that tone as well, Taski, which is why in MY campaign, the people of Ib will worship, say, the Voice in the Darkness or the Rage of War. Canon Eberron HAS strange, alien gods you can barely wrap your mind around... il-Lashtavar, the Overlords of the Age of Demons, and the daelkyr (to name a few), all of which DO have worshippers. What if you found the remnants of a human civilization that worshipped il-Lashtavar long before the Inspired came to Eberron? The Dreaming Dark existed for tens of thousands of years before Riedra, and humans go to Dal Quor every night; it would hardly be surprising to find a culture based around the worship of Dal Quor. It's never been my intent to say that ALL cultures worship the Sovereigns. However, the point is to say that the are an astonishingly common meme found throughout many cultures. It's sort of like the number of cultures in our world that have legends of a great flood, just taken a step further. And as such, it is the primary argument that the Sovereigns exist in some form - because otherwise, why would these themes be so common? Beyond that, from a purely cynical, metagame perspective, I do this because it's how I like to add new spells into my campaign. When Complete Champion comes out and says "Here's 52 new cleric spells," I personally hate saying "Oh, here's this spell that you've always had the ability to case, but you've never bothered to do until now. That's the point of finding the Banor worshippers of Ib. If you can unlock their secrets and bridge the gap between their rituals and your own, you can learn to invoke Balinor in entirely new ways - and thus, gain access to entirely new spells. The Ghaash'kala paladin and the Mironite Cleric have a vast amount to learn from one another - but the reason they CAN share this knowledge is because they are ultimately touching the same force. So to me, there IS wonder to be found in Ib's rites to Banor... if in studying this, you gain entirely new insight into Balinor. And just to highlight this, it is CRITICAL to bear in mind that even if cultures worship the same force - the god of the hunt, presented as a stalking green dragon - they can see him in DRAMATICALLY different ways, just as DD has noted with the difference between the typical view of the Keeper and the Restful Watch's view of him. So the people of Ib also worship Balinor... But they worship him by hunting any foreigners they capture! If you survive the hunt, you may learn new rituals to invoke Balinor... but do you really want to invoke Balinor using the rituals of the Hunters of Men? Nonetheless, key point: *I* love Lovecraftian horror. I love strange, alien gods. But we've got those, in the Overlords and the monstrous forces of Dal Quor, Xoriat, Kythri, or even Thelanis. Beyond this, a key point is that people can believe absolutely anything... it's simply the case that you have a greater chance of gaining divine magic if you follow a Sovereign Archetype. So looking to the example I gave before, there WERE cultures that worshipped Gresh of the Green Shadows and Sybalin Spearmaiden... and these cultures simply produced fewer clerics and adepts, making it difficult for them to compete against the faiths drawing on a power such as Sovereigns, Flame, Druidic tradition, or other proven source of faith. Their lost cities are still out there - you just won't find many clerical secrets in these ruins. Essentially, the key is that there is a REASON the major modern faiths are the major faiths - and that's because cultures that touch these forces have a easier time producing divine casters. It's something that has shaped the history of Eberron, and something that does make it different from our world. But again, that's just my opinion, and you should go your own way - just don't rule out the possibility of mind-numbing alien horror using canon material. ;)
Alex_ 03-21-07, 08:00 PM	But they can, and do. The faith of the Blood of Vol is predicated on the existence OF the Sovereign Host. Page 95 of Sharn: City of Towers - "(The followers of the Blood of Vol) believe in the existence of the gods of the Sovereign Host - and despise them." The followers of the Blood of Vol don't worship the Sovereigns. But they don't deny their existence. The existence of the BoV and the power of its clerics does not present any form of contradiction to the existence of the Sovereign Host. That's a the sect in Sharn, and they are suppoed to be ill acquainted with the true nature of the religion. They believe that undead will eventually rise up and kill the deities of the Soverign Host/Dark Six and elminate death forever. These beliefs are not part of the mainstream Blood of Vol faith that implies that there are no deities. The Lord of Blades is an example of the sort of variant sect that can exist, but again, the existence of this faith doesn't require that the Sovereigns or Flame don't exist, and beyond that, there are a few thousand LoB worshippers as compared to millions of Sovereign worshippers. However, what does the existence of the Lord of Blades as a deity say about the fact that according to the many Sovereign Host/Dark Six faiths that say there are only 13 deities? What does it say about Blood of Vol faiths that say there are NO deities? One or all of them could be wrong. Count the number of screwball sects you can find in our world! I am looking at it from a real world perspective. Even in our own world, it's quite easy for some to entertain the fact that in spire of the existence of so many faiths, that there are no deities. There are beliefs that contradict others, and someone who believes in something that is out of the mainstream or seems silly can do pretty much all of the same stuff as someone who believes exactly as you do. If you're saying that people can have different beliefs and still get divine power, I'm not arguing. What I am saying is that the primary, mainstream religions of Eberron - religions with hundreds of thousands of followers - do not actually contradict one another. I argue that not ALL of them contradict one another regarding all things and have no similarities. However, a great many do have some conflicts in certain areas. The Silver Flame is a force composed of noble spirits; the existence of this force in no way contradicts the existence of the Sovereigns, and followers of the SH can work side by side with, say, followers of Dol Arrah. The faith of the Blood of Vol presumes the existence of the Sovereign Host, even though the followers of the BoV follow an entirely different path. I have never suggested there was conflict between the Silver Flame and the Host/Six. The Path of Light follows no god, but neither does it deny the existence of any gods: it is purely based on the movement towards the next age. The What is living/acting as if something doesn't exist, if it isn't denying it? Just because one does not emphatically state what they don't believe in doesn't mean they accept it. It's not that the followers of the path of Light don't care about the deities of the Host/Six or choose to ignore them. They simply do not believe in them. What I am arguing is the word contradiction. The major faiths of Eberron can largely coexist without cosmological contradiction, even if their followers disagree. How are you using the word "faith"? I'm using it to describe the beliefs held by the mortals of Eberron consisting of several beliefs and conclusions regarding the true nature of reality. I agree that the phenomenon behind the Silver Flame, Soverign Host, or Blood of Vol could exist, but they cannot exist as every mortal describes them. Some mortal has to be wrong, some can be right, and it could very well be that they are ALL wrong. Can you show me one thing that conclusively states this is the case? Case in point, what the followers of the Silver Flame believe is that noble souls join together to produce the Flame. Therefore, there is a divine spirit in every living creature. The Blood of Vol, essentially, believes.... that there is a divine spirit in every living creature. Their practices are different but NOT contradictory. The Silver Flame believes that the spark of divinity can eventually unite with the Silver Flame, and that the Flame is an influential force. Seekers of the Blood do not believe this. Followers of the Silver Flame believe that acting selflessly can potentially earn them immortality. Seekers of the blood believe acting selfishly can potentially earn them immortality. The practices are part of the belief structure. Many earthly religions conclusively state "There is no god but X." If you assume that their thesis is correct, it is IMPOSSIBLE for the other religion to be true. So unless a religion emphatically states this, then it is assumed that they believe in or agree with the existence of and will of any other deity as described by people of other faith? The Blood of Vol doesn't deny the existence of any god; it simply encourages its followers to FIGHT them. This is not true. The on sect you mentioned does fight what they believe to be actual deities, but many Seekers do not believe in them. Fighting something you don't believe in is futile. They oppose the followers of those beliefs, in an effort to stop them from spreading the ideas, but they do not believe in the deities themselves. The Silver Flame believes that there is a divine essence within all living creatures. Far from contradicting the core beliefs of the Blood of Vol, these are essentially the same belief. The critical difference is that the BoV states that this essence is irretrievably lost at the moment of death; the Silver Flame believes that it can be preserved by joining the flame. Variations on the theme, but both tied to the same principle. Essentially, the BoV just don't have the faith the SF does that that spark can be preserved. [/list] Difference of opinion and practice, yes. But not the impossible to resolve conflicts that you get between many of our religions. If you pick and choose similar things and splice them together yes. However, if you try to take EVERYTHING that EVERY Blood of Vol and Silver Flame follower believes to be true and try to make them all agree, you won't be able to. At one point or another, you're going to have to tell someone that they are wrong. You are going to have to correct or contradict them. Giants and humans are similar in many ways. Agreed. Nothing strange here. How is that not strange? They live half-way around the world, and look almost EXACTLY like humans, only larger, but don't seem to share any common ancestry. That is very strange. Giants and humans both practice agriculture, magic, build houses, temples, etc. Right. No problem so far. Again, how is this not strange? Giants and Humans have no relationship with one another, and yet they develop agriculture, using essentially the same kinds of tools. They develop magic, which relies on a very specific series of precisely performed actions to work. They build houses using pretty much the same materials and methods used by humans, and arranged in very similar ways. They form many of the same social institutions. Yet they are supposed to have never had any kind of interaction or common ancestry or influenced each other? Essentially, giants are no different than a human culture found halfway across the world from another human culture. Fine. I don't understand how this is readily acceptable and considered normal and yet... BUT... now we find that the temple is dedicated to a god of law and magic... like our own. We find that he is represented by a blue dragon, an eight-pointed cross, and an open book - all symbols that look remarkably like our own. We find that his name is almost identical to the name WE use for our god, despite the vast difference between our two languages. We find that they have a similar myth concerning the god's evil shadow, which embodies the dark side of magic. ....is considered surprsing. In almost every other way, Giants are nothing but Humans, only larger. How is it surprising that they would come up with a belief in similar deities? We find religious rituals that the giants used in their ceremonies to their "Ourelon", and discover that if we sub in "Aureon" and use these rituals ourselves, we get new magic. Our god answers prayers written forty-thousand years ago by these priests. And by looking at Giant's schema, we can cast new arcane spells and effects. Repetition of similar acts generating similar magical reactions seems to be the basic principle of all magic. Yet this culture is half a world away from us, on a continent that has never had a human population, and which was destroyed tens of thousands of years before our culture arose from savagery. Yeah, I'm wondering how they managed to be so close to humans in so many ways myself. Perhaps humans and Giants are not as unrelated as once thought? Perhaps the concept of the Host/Six is not entirely Human in origin, but was brought over by human explorers from other continents? Perhaps there are so many similar beings in Eberron because they are all of Eberron? Lots of potential explanations. Are you telling me there's nothing strange about that? In our world, you can find, say, a nature god in most pantheistic cultures. And sure, it's easy for an invading culture to say "They're just using the wrong name - they meant to worship our god." But that's not the case here. They were already using, for all intents and purposes, the RIGHT name, and already using the same symbol. Why did they decide to use a BLUE dragon? Why not gold? Not that specific, but there are an amazing number of similarities between Krishna of Hindu beliefs and Christ of the Christian faiths. But the real world isn't fantasy. In the real world, I would be very surprised to see dozens of sapient humanoid species arising from multiple taxonomic groups separated by millions of years of development (like Lizardfolk and Gnolls). In the real world, I would be surprised if beings from other planes of reality used the scripts of our people as the basic of the written language for everyone in their sphere of reality (Aquans using Elven script for their language or creatures from the plane of Ice using Dwarven script). All Halflings seem to speak Halfling. All Dwarves gain proficiency with certain weapons and attack bonuses against Orcs and Goblinoids. In fantasy, similarities between seemingly unrelated phenomena doesn't raise as much of an eyebrow. What "phenomena spawned the Silver Flame faith"? The discovery of a silver flame. If you go back far enough, it was the war between the rakshasa lords and the Couatl-Dragon alliance. The couatls sacrificed their immortal spirits to create the spiritual force that could bind the demon overlords... the Silver Flame. Okay. [/quote] The couatl - or at least their shulassakar devotees - were present in Khalesh. This gives Khalesh a direct connection to the phenomena that spawned the Silver Flame itself. They were dedicated to the PRINCIPLES of the Silver Flame: defending the innocent, and containing and combatting the forces of evil. [/quote] But the Khalesh did not worship the Flame. They followed principles created by creatures related to those that would eventually become the flame. The Ghaash'kala believe in the "Binding Flame", the force that holds the demons at bay. They believe that their souls will strengthen the Flame on death. They dedicate their lives to fighting and containing evil. And they sit on the edge of a place where demon overlords are bound... by the Silver Flame. The foundation of their faith is, again, the same phenomena as the modern faith of Thrane. So there seems to be a Silver Flame which has power over demons. Then we get to Tira Miron. The event that caused the manifestation of the physical silver flame in Flamekeep was a rakshasa overlord escaping from the Flame and being forced back into its bonds by Tira and a couatl spirit. Rakshasa... Couatl... bound by the Flame... the phenomena that created all of this occured in the Age of Demons, not in the 3rd century YK. Right. Could the Ghaash'kala orc recite the Seven Hymns to the Flame? No, of course not. But the POWER that he worships, and the fundamental values of his religion are identical. He serves the spiritual force that holds the ancient demons at bay, represented by a flame empowered by noble spirits and served by feathered serpents. He dedicates his life to battling supernatural evil and protecting the innocent. He serves the Silver Flame, just as the giant hunter of Banor and the orc hunter of Baalkan revere the Sovereign of Horn and Hunt. But is this force divine? Does it actually influence the world in the way the believers think, or is it more of a magical phenomenon that is detrimental to the existence of demons and evil creatures? Is it a necessary a deity, or just a powerful force of nature? The equivalent of Wolf's bane or Garlic for demons? The non-divine can be worshiped. They can have a religion or number of faithful form around them and still not be all that their worshipers think they are. the Quori faith in Redria is an excellent example. We just happen to have metagame information telling us that the Quori are not deities- just powerful outsiders. When I speak of prayers actually being answered, I'm talking about divine magic. What's been stated is that clerics have an easier time getting spells from the Sovereigns than from random concepts that only one or two people believe in. You can start your own religion, sure. But it's not easy. Since when? Clerics of the Host/Six don't seem to benefit from any advantages in terms of divine casting compared to clerics of other faiths. There may be MORE clerics of those faiths simply by virtue of having more members (and it's easier to believe in something everyone else does) but there's nothing regarding spell casting that suggests any one cleric's beliefs are more or less justified than another's, no matter what they believe. YOU, as a player in D&D, could. But why aren't there more religions like this in Eberron? Because people in Eberron aren't metagamers. They truly believe that they're getting powers from a deity or some kind of supernatural divine force. There already seem to be many different religions in Eberron that focus on worshiping something other than the Flame or Host/Six. I would also imagine that the more aggressive conversion/evangelical tactics used by the Host/Six and Flame would help them become and stay more popular. Because it's hard to generate power from such a faith. Eberron makes it POSSIBLE for you to have any religion you want - but it also gives every indication that there ARE powers that provide an easy path to divine power, whether they are gods or not. Sure. It's always easier to believe something more firmly when you have a lot of people agreeing with you.
taski 03-21-07, 08:39 PM	However, the point is to say that the are an astonishingly common meme found throughout many cultures. It's sort of like the number of cultures in our world that have legends of a great flood, just taken a step further. And as such, it is the primary argument that the Sovereigns exist in some form - because otherwise, why would these themes be so common? I like this idea, but I use it in a different form. In the early years, the Kingdom of Galifar needed a way to unite all the newly conquered cultures under one banner. So, they claimed that everyone's different gods were actually all the same gods with different names. With some finessing and spin, this did smooth over religious conflict in the nations before it had a chance to occur. Over the centuries, the Galifarans forgot that their gods were previously not so similar, or that their myths did not always agree. To this day, most Sovereign Host followers do think their gods are the ones that, say, the Vulkoor drow worship. The drow, on the other hand, think that's absurd. Beyond that, from a purely cynical, metagame perspective, I do this because it's how I like to add new spells into my campaign. When Complete Champion comes out and says "Here's 52 new cleric spells," I personally hate saying "Oh, here's this spell that you've always had the ability to case, but you've never bothered to do until now." [...snip] The Ghaash'kala paladin and the Mironite Cleric have a vast amount to learn from one another - but the reason they CAN share this knowledge is because they are ultimately touching the same force. Ah, in my game, things are a little different. In a nutshell, there are no verifiable sources for divine spells; intense faith really is all that's needed. The Ghaash'kala paladin and Mironite Cleric can share knowledge, but only if they both truly believe they can. If either one of them is closed minded, then they can't share. If a Host cleric goes to Ib and finds inscriptions about a hunter deity, he can learn about Balinor from those inscriptions if he believes they're one and the same. Though he won't find anything about a green dragon, his own faith in inclusion will tell him it's Balinor. But, if instead his personal intuition tells him the inscriptions are not related to the Host, he can't learn spells from them. The Host's firmly inclusive stance does benefit the religion in the long run, as its priests can appropriate useful spells from other, very different, cultures. That stance is, however, not necessarily fact in the greater scheme of things, which NPC skeptics will note (in my game). But again, that's just my opinion, and you should go your own way - just don't rule out the possibility of mind-numbing alien horror using canon material. ;) I'm not saying there isn't room for oodles of horror in canon material (there's plenty of it, you've done a very good job there! :D). I just also want there to be lots of room for justified skepticism and fundamentally confusing diversity.
Hellcow 03-21-07, 10:44 PM	I like this idea, but I use it in a different form. In the early years, the Kingdom of Galifar needed a way to unite all the newly conquered cultures under one banner. So, they claimed that everyone's different gods were actually all the same gods with different names. Certainly a valid approach. It's all a question of what you prefer. Again, the reason I like the common archetypes is because for me it strengthens the mystery... does the common imagery of the Green Dragon mean that once upon a time there WAS a green dragon that inspired the story of Banor/Balinor/Baalkan? If not, why IS there a common theme of a green dragon? For me, the more gods you have out there, the less reason you have to believe that there are any gods at all; it strengthens the "You can believe in whatever you want and get power from it" theory (which on some level is true, but I've already discussed how I use this). It has always been a fundamental principle of Eberron that we can't KNOW if any deity exists; but the common theme of the Sovereigns is an indication that they MAY exist, even if they don't exist in a form you could physically encounter or fight. What you're suggesting is certainly logical. The approach I use is, essentially, illogical; it's supposed to be odd to find that sixty-thousand year old shrine to the Stalking Dragon. With that said, it doesn't mean that all people who worship the Sovereigns agree. The Talenta have a tradition respecting a force with some similarity to Balinor, but they have no analogue to, say, Dol Arrah, and they dismiss any claim that this Dol Arrah of the humans is connected to their faith. Likewise, the giants of Rusheme say Karrak (or the Keeper, as the tiny ones call him) is the Final Guardian of souls; they may represent him with the silhouette of a skeletal dragon as humans do, but they seem him as a benevolent deity, and do not fear him. Essentially, it's a similar tradition to the Restful Watch, but one very different from mainstream Pyrinean faith. The Ghaash'kala paladin and Mironite Cleric can share knowledge, but only if they both truly believe they can. If either one of them is closed minded, then they can't share. A perfectly reasonable approach. I just also want there to be lots of room for justified skepticism and fundamentally confusing diversity. As do I. Again, the idea that you can't prove the Sovereigns (or any other deity) exist is a core principle of Eberron. But I also want there to be an argument those who believe can turn to. The common imagery of Flame and Sovereign are two themes that suggest that SOME force exists - but are they gods? Or is the common imagery tied to something else - some sort of archetypal icons that have gained strength from shared belief, creating a wellspring of spiritual power? Or could these sovereigns possibly be creatures like the Overlords... or even be Overlords themselves, lost to history? I touched on diversity above, but again, it comes to the issue of my hunter god being a bold warrior who embodies the struggle between man and beast, and your hunter god being a cruel hunter of men. You're using the same green dragon to symbolize your god as I do... but do I WANT to believe that we could share the same god, when your practices are so different than mine? Does this significant difference - the same as what we see between Karrak and the Keeper - prove that there CAN'T be a sentient force attached to these names, because no sentient god would support both extremes? Is one interpretation correct, and the other wrong? Or does the Green Dragon embody all aspects of the hunter? Nonetheless, I think your approach is certainly a logical one - and certainly closer to what you find in the history of our world.
taski 03-22-07, 01:51 AM	Certainly a valid approach. It's all a question of what you prefer. Again, the reason I like the common archetypes is because for me it strengthens the mystery... does the common imagery of the Green Dragon mean that once upon a time there WAS a green dragon that inspired the story of Banor/Balinor/Baalkan? If not, why IS there a common theme of a green dragon? I actually like that mystery, too, and if I were running a different campaign I might consider making it a central theme for a Host cleric to investigate. But my current campaign has no cleric at all! Just a sorcerer-inquisitive who winces at the mention of piety. ;) So I'm sure you can understand why there's no need to prod him with a religion he doesn't follow. P.S. Compliments to the chef for being such a nice guy.
The Dreaming Duck 03-22-07, 02:00 AM	That's a the sect in Sharn, and they are suppoed to be ill acquainted with the true nature of the religion. As for the Blood of Vol... Yes, by my design (as seen in Sharn), the followers of the Blood of Vol do believe in the Sovereign Host. One of the key aspects of the Blood of Vol is the question "What just god would allow death and suffering?" - with the answer being "None - therefore the gods are unjust." The Sovereigns afflicted mortals with the curse of mortality to prevent them from rising to the level of the gods - and that struggle to overcome the curse and to attain the full divinity bound within the blood is the core of the faith. So yes, the BoV doesn't worship the Sovereigns - but the Sovereigns do play a role in the faith. Believe what you want to believe. Personally, I'm following the original intent of the creator of the setting. I find the idea of blaming gods and gods fearing mortals (itself tying back to the concept of the Tree of Life, and the fear of humanity attaining the power of the divine) far more compelling than simple atheism. Beyond that, I like the idea that the Blood of Vol is a REACTION to the Sovereign Host - "If your gods are so great, why do they let people die?" That's an excellent question, and I think it's perfectly reasonable for a religion to rise around it. However, what does the existence of the Lord of Blades as a deity say about the fact that according to the many Sovereign Host/Dark Six faiths that say there are only 13 deities? To begin with, the Lord of Blades isn't a deity. People who believe in his cause may gain the ability to cast spells, but the Lord of Blades himself doesn't grant them. As a concept, he is a path to divine spellcasting ability; but he's not a god in the same sense as a Sovereign, which is a unknowable entity that may or may not exist, and which, if it does exist, may be directly responsible for empowering a cleric. Even if a follower of the Sovereign Host believes that there ARE only 15 gods, the Lord of Blades is not going to even register on their divine radar. He doesn't challenge their beliefs because he's NOT a god - he's a warforged, whose followers have somehow acquired divine spellcasting ability. As a follower of the Sovereign Host forced to reconcile this apparent blow to my faith, I'd probably conclude that they are being empowered by the Traveler, who is a) a god of artifice and thus a good patron for the warforged, and b) a master deceiver, who undoubtedly enjoys following these deluded warforged and letting them THINK their messiah is a god. What a delightful game to play! Look at the chaos it's causing! So once again, the existence of the warforged faith doesn't contradict anything; it's easy to incorporate it into my own world view. Howevat is living/acting as if something doesn't exist, if it isn't denying it? Just because one does not emphatically state what they don't believe in doesn't mean they accept it. I think we're continuing to argue about two entirely different things. I still feel that you are arguing that people on Eberron may BELIEVE things that contradict the beliefs of other people. I agree with you 100%, as I've tried to state above. What I've tried to say is that if you set aside the beliefs of the people, the cosmological FACTS don't contradict one another. I don't care if the followers of the Path of Light BELIEVE in the Sovereigns or not; that's completely irrelevant to my point. The only point I am trying to make is that the beliefs of both Sovereign Host and Path of Light could be completely true... and the universe would keep turning. NOTHING about the Path of Light suggests that gods couldn't exist and watch over Eberron, because the beliefs of the Path of Light have nothing to do with Eberron. Nothing about the Silver Flame - again, setting aside the beliefs of its followers - suggests that it couldn't exist simultaneously with a pantheon of gods watching over Eberron. Summing up: The Path of Light is focused on Dal Quor and has nothing to do with Eberron. The Undying Court is a creation of the elves of Aerenal. It could easily coincide with the presence of Sovereigns or Flame. It is a religion created entirely through mortal action. The Silver Flame is a force created through the action of the couatls, and brought to humanity by the action of Tira Miron. Tira herself was a servant of the Sovereigns prior to being touched by the Flame. Thus, the history of the Flame actually strengthens the existence of the Sovereigns. The Blood of Vol either believes in the Sovereigns or believes in no gods at all, depending on which version you prefer. Either way, the beliefs of the people don't preclude the existence of the Sovereigns. They don't believe in the Sovereigns; this doesn't mean the Sovereigns can't possibly exist. The Cults of the Dragon Below worship the Overlords (born of Khyber) or the Daelkyr (born of Xoriat). Again, the existence of these forces isn't in question, and still doesn't conclusively rule out the existence of the Sovereigns. Even if the Lord of Blades IS a god... he's a newborn god, and as such, in no way precludes the existence of older gods, IE, the Sovereigns. What is missing here is a religion that clearly states "There is one god. He created the world. He created humanity. No other gods exist." Such a religion would contradict the myth of the Progenitors and the myth of the Sovereigns. These two religions simply couldn't both be true. What Eberron lacks is the existence of contradictory PANTHEONS. The kalashtar believe in il-Lashtavar and il-Yannah - but even if they don't believe in the Sovereigns, neither do their beliefs preclude the possibility that the progenitors created Eberron and that the Sovereigns exist. Do people BELIEVE contradictory things? Of course they do. But do those beliefs prevent the universe from having an internal consistency that can encompass ALL of those beliefs? No. And THAT's the point I'm trying to make. In Eberron, everyone could be wrong about their faith... but it's equally possible that everyone is right. The Silver Flame DOES exist. The Sovereigns COULD exist, whether you're a druid, a worshipper of the Dragon Below, or a follower of the Lord of Blades. Your truth doesn't rule out the possibility of my truth. I agree that the phenomenon behind the Silver Flame, Soverign Host, or Blood of Vol could exist, but they cannot exist as every mortal describes them. Some mortal has to be wrong, some can be right, and it could very well be that they are ALL wrong. Hmm, wish I'd seen this before I wrote all that other stuff. Exactly. THEY ALL COULD EXIST. And, as you say, they all may NOT exist. All of the doctrinal beliefs of the religions can't be true... but the existence of the divine forces that inspired those faiths are not at odds. In almost every other way, Giants are nothing but Humans, only larger. How is it surprising that they would come up with a belief in similar deities? It's not strange at all. The strange part is the use of similar names and symbols. Why depict the god of law as a blue dragon? Why use an eight-pointed cross? Is this unprecedented in our world? No. Christ figures, the Deluge, etc - there are examples to be found. On the other hand, the prevalence of deluge myths is typically used to say that there WAS a deluge; as such, a prevalence of Sovereign imagery and the similarity of names is an indication that the Sovereigns may exist or might have existed in the past. The discovery of a silver flame... ... Isn't what inspired Tira. A rakshasa rajah escaped from the bonds of the Flame, a force which already existed. Tira was contacted by a minion of the Flame and empowered by the Flame, and her sacrifice created the Flame in Flamekeep and allowed her to become the Voice to humanity. But that was the result of the release and recapture of a SINGLE rajah... and the Flame binds thirty of them, and had for a hundred thousand years prior to Tira's birth. The DOCTRINE of the Church of the Silver Flame is tied to Tira. The doctrine of the Ghaash'kala is based around the Binding Flame, the force that has bound demons since the dawn of time. Their beliefs are different. But the FORCE that inspired both faiths is one and the same, and the fundamental heart of the beliefs - fight supernatural evil - is the same. But is this force divine? Beats me. Again, I'm not trying to say whether the followers of the faith are right or wrong. I'm saying that there IS a force that binds demons and empowers clerics, that a number of different religions draw on it as the source of their power, and whether it's divine or not, the fact that it exists doesn't preclude the existence of divine Sovereigns, il-Lashtavar and il-Yannah, daelkyr and rakshasa Rajahs, an ascended Lord of Blades, or the Progenitors. All of these things can exist in the same universe, regardless of whether or not all things their followers believe are true. Since when? Clerics of the Host/Six don't seem to benefit from any advantages in terms of divine casting compared to clerics of other faiths. Absolutely correct. They don't receive in-game advantages. What we have is the creator of the setting saying that the reason the SH is as prominent as it is because it's easier to gain divine power from the SH than from other sources, and that's why there are more priests of the SH than followers of the Lord of Blades or "I believe I am God" priests. There's no mechanics for it; the proof is purely fluff, the fact that there AREN'T a hundred thriving pantheons in the world (again, a marked difference from FR). You're certainly entitled to ignore the creator's intent and come up with your own reason why this is the case. However, it makes sense to me, and still allows PCs to follow their own faiths, or DMs to create new religions.
Daydreamer 03-22-07, 02:59 AM	They dont kill shifters on site, because shifters do not spread the curse of lycanthrophy. But there is no short change on animosity between the two groups that could dwindle into violence easily enough. Lycanthrophy however is another matter-they are in genuine danger if discovered.
Teron Gorefiend 03-22-07, 10:03 PM	They dont kill shifters on site, because shifters do not spread the curse of lycanthrophy. But there is no short change on animosity between the two groups that could dwindle into violence easily enough. Lycanthrophy however is another matter-they are in genuine danger if discovered. So, coming in after twenty-some replies, you thought you could contribute something remotely relevant without bothering to read any of them?
ArcTan 03-23-07, 12:13 AM	Also, I DM a historian. It would really disappoint him if every culture believed in basically the same gods. There would be so much less to discover about them. There'd still be tons of variations. And, in real life, if you discovered some metaphysical pattern that wound its way through all human cultures for no apparent reason, wouldn't that excite you? (It excites many real-life scholars, who make a big deal out of things like flood myths or the hero cycle.)
ArcTan 03-23-07, 12:17 AM	Even if a follower of the Sovereign Host believes that there ARE only 15 gods, the Lord of Blades is not going to even register on their divine radar. He doesn't challenge their beliefs because he's NOT a god - he's a warforged, whose followers have somehow acquired divine spellcasting ability. As a follower of the Sovereign Host forced to reconcile this apparent blow to my faith, I'd probably conclude that they are being empowered by the Traveler, who is a) a god of artifice and thus a good patron for the warforged, and b) a master deceiver, who undoubtedly enjoys following these deluded warforged and letting them THINK their messiah is a god. What a delightful game to play! Look at the chaos it's causing! The Lord of Blades, as a living perversion of the purpose of the warforged, their proper place in society, and the divide between life and unlife, and as the single greatest cause of fear and disruption in the world (at least according to his enemies), is likely to be seen as an "avatar" or "messiah" or "emissary" of the Traveller by loyal Vassals. LoB's clerics are really Clerics of the Traveller, bearing in mind that the Traveller is said to walk the earth in diverse forms, bringing chaos and confusion in each new shape he takes and each new life he leads. Whoever the LoB thinks he is, what he really is is a vessel for the god of chaos and disorder.
Alex_ 03-23-07, 12:57 AM	Believe what you want to believe. Personally, I'm following the original intent of the creator of the setting. I find the idea of blaming gods and gods fearing mortals (itself tying back to the concept of the Tree of Life, and the fear of humanity attaining the power of the divine) far more compelling than simple atheism. Beyond that, I like the idea that the Blood of Vol is a REACTION to the Sovereign Host - "If your gods are so great, why do they let people die?" That's an excellent question, and I think it's perfectly reasonable for a religion to rise around it. Sharn: The City of Towers clearly stated that the BoV sect was a variant that had beliefs not in keeping with the mainstream, and were ignorant of the true nature of the faith. The Faith of Eberron books repeatedly suggests that Seekers usually don't believe in any deities. The Blood of Vol as practiced by most is an atheistic philosophy. To begin with, the Lord of Blades isn't a deity. Many of his followers would say otherwise as indicated in Faiths of Eberron. People who believe in his cause may gain the ability to cast spells, but the Lord of Blades himself doesn't grant them. As a concept, he is a path to divine spellcasting ability; but he's not a god in the same sense as a Sovereign, which is a unknowable entity that may or may not exist, and which, if it does exist, may be directly responsible for empowering a cleric. The followers of the Lord of Blades believe him to be a deity- a being of divine supernatural powers far in excess of mortals, with control over reality and the ability to intercede on their behalf. He is more tangible and comprehensible than the concept of the Host/Six, but to his followers, he is a deity. WE, the players know that the Lord of Blades isn't a deity (or do we? he could very well be as there are numerous stats and ) but those who worship him believe he is, while some don't. It's the same thing with the Host/Six. Some believe in them and believe they really exist as gods. Some people think it's just people worshiping someting that doesn't really exist as they say, and are drawing power from some other source- but NOT the deities they claim to be drawing it from. Even if a follower of the Sovereign Host believes that there ARE only 15 gods, the Lord of Blades is not going to even register on their divine radar. He doesn't challenge their beliefs because he's NOT a god - he's a warforged, whose followers have somehow acquired divine spellcasting ability. As a follower of the Sovereign Host forced to reconcile this apparent blow to my faith, I'd probably conclude that they are being empowered by the Traveler, who is a) a god of artifice and thus a good patron for the warforged, and b) a master deceiver, who undoubtedly enjoys following these deluded warforged and letting them THINK their messiah is a god. What a delightful game to play! Look at the chaos it's causing! And to any other religion, followers of the Host/Six are not worshiping deities. They're worshipping things that don't even register on their divine radar, and have somehow managed to acquire spellcasting abilities. They are probably powered by whatever divine powers the other philosophies believe in, or by some non-divine power if you go with a philosophy that doesn't believe in such. So once again, the existence of the warforged faith doesn't contradict anything; it's easy to incorporate it into my own world view. You allowed it to exist by denying the Lord of Blades as a deity. His followers certainly believe he is. One of you is wrong. I think we're continuing to argue about two entirely different things. I still feel that you are arguing that people on Eberron may BELIEVE things that contradict the beliefs of other people. I agree with you 100%, as I've tried to state above. What I've tried to say is that if you set aside the beliefs of the people, the cosmological FACTS don't contradict one another. There are no cosmological "facts" that we are privy to that nobody else in Eberron knows about. All that we know about Eberron is what has been presented in the books, which are written more like a scholar's observations- actually the Faiths of Eberron books IS supposed to be a collection of scholarly writings. The only thing we know that they don't are mechanics like Base Attack Bonuses, Class levels, and the like, and knowledge that the setting is fantasy. Everything else is just as much a mystery to us as to them. I don't care if the followers of the Path of Light BELIEVE in the Sovereigns or not; that's completely irrelevant to my point. The only point I am trying to make is that the beliefs of both Sovereign Host and Path of Light could be completely true... and the universe would keep turning. According to a specific interpretation of the faiths and ignoring others it could. The same could be said of anything though. NOTHING about the Path of Light suggests that gods couldn't exist and watch over Eberron, because the beliefs of the Path of Light have nothing to do with Eberron. Nothing about the Silver Flame - again, setting aside the beliefs of its followers - suggests that it couldn't exist simultaneously with a pantheon of gods watching over Eberron. Summing up: The Path of Light is focused on Dal Quor and has nothing to do with Eberron. The Silver Flame is a force created through the action of the couatls, and brought to humanity by the action of Tira Miron. Tira herself was a servant of the Sovereigns prior to being touched by the Flame. Thus, the history of the Flame actually strengthens the existence of the Sovereigns. The Blood of Vol either believes in the Sovereigns or believes in no gods at all, depending on which version you prefer. Either way, the beliefs of the people don't preclude the existence of the Sovereigns. They don't believe in the Sovereigns; this doesn't mean the Sovereigns can't possibly exist. The Cults of the Dragon Below worship the Overlords (born of Khyber) or the Daelkyr (born of Xoriat). Again, the existence of these forces isn't in question, and still doesn't conclusively rule out the existence of the Sovereigns. Even if the Lord of Blades IS a god... he's a newborn god, and as such, in no way precludes the existence of older gods, IE, the Sovereigns. While all, possible, all of this is just as likely to NOT be true. For the players, things were presented to be a mystery, so that either side could reasonably support/deny the existence of divine powers or pick which ones are real and which ones aren't. What is missing here is a religion that clearly states "There is one god. He created the world. He created humanity. No other gods exist." Such a religion would contradict the myth of the Progenitors and the myth of the Sovereigns. These two religions simply couldn't both be true. What Eberron lacks is the existence of contradictory PANTHEONS. The kalashtar believe in il-Lashtavar and il-Yannah - but even if they don't believe in the Sovereigns, neither do their beliefs preclude the possibility that the progenitors created Eberron and that the Sovereigns exist. I agree. It doesn't preclude it, but that doesn't mean it condones it either. Do people BELIEVE contradictory things? Of course they do. But do those beliefs prevent the universe from having an internal consistency that can encompass ALL of those beliefs? No. And THAT's the point I'm trying to make. In Eberron, everyone could be wrong about their faith... but it's equally possible that everyone is right. The Silver Flame DOES exist. The Sovereigns COULD exist, whether you're a druid, a worshipper of the Dragon Below, or a follower of the Lord of Blades. Your truth doesn't rule out the possibility of my truth. I agree with your point. I agree that the Soverigns or Flame COULD exist as divine entities or deities in Eberron. However, I also hold that this could very well NOT be the case. That what players and characters in the game believe is divine or a deity, is something that is not. Hmm, wish I'd seen this before I wrote all that other stuff. Exactly. THEY ALL COULD EXIST. And, as you say, they all may NOT exist. All of the doctrinal beliefs of the religions can't be true... but the existence of the divine forces that inspired those faiths are not at odds. It's not strange at all. The strange part is the use of similar names and symbols. Why depict the god of law as a blue dragon? Why use an eight-pointed cross? Is this unprecedented in our world? No. Christ figures, the Deluge, etc - there are examples to be found. On the other hand, the prevalence of deluge myths is typically used to say that there WAS a deluge; as such, a prevalence of Sovereign imagery and the similarity of names is an indication that the Sovereigns may exist or might have existed in the past. Or that similar minds think in similar manners, can reach similar conclusions, similar thought processes, and achieve similar results. Religion is not the only way in which intelligent cultures can be similar, but it is one that people tend to care quite a bit about. The DOCTRINE of the Church of the Silver Flame is tied to Tira. The doctrine of the Ghaash'kala is based around the Binding Flame, the force that has bound demons since the dawn of time. Their beliefs are different. But the FORCE that inspired both faiths is one and the same, and the fundamental heart of the beliefs - fight supernatural evil - is the same. But is it divine, or something that came about when people noticed a magical phenomena that was harmful to evil beings? Are they worshiping something truly divine, or something that is a deity, or something that is just a part of the world? Beats me. Again, I'm not trying to say whether the followers of the faith are right or wrong. I'm saying that there IS a force that binds demons and empowers clerics... No, their FAITH empowers them. Not the Flame. They have all these notions about what the Flame is and is not, and it's their unwavering belief in these conclusions that gives them their power- and is separate from what the Flame is or isn't. Absolutely correct. They don't receive in-game advantages. What we have is the creator of the setting saying that the reason the SH is as prominent as it is because it's easier to gain divine power from the SH than from other sources, and that's why there are more priests of the SH than followers of the Lord of Blades or "I believe I am God" priests. As much as I appreciate Kieth's input, his observations regarding the setting are not official, and are not to be treated the same as published material. They are what he does in HIS game. And even then, I seem to recall him mentioning quite a few times that it was collective faith that empowered them- not the validity or basis of the faith. If the Blood of Vol used the Host/Six's or Silver Flame's conversion tactics and vice versca, there would be WAY more worshipers of the Silver Flame than of the Host/Six or Flame. There's no mechanics for it; the proof is purely fluff, the fact that there AREN'T a hundred thriving pantheons in the world (again, a marked difference from FR). You're certainly entitled to ignore the creator's intent and come up with your own reason why this is the case. However, it makes sense to me, and still allows PCs to follow their own faiths, or DMs to create new religions. Again, Keith's comments are not official commentary regarding the setting. For instance, the material he has in his novels also show what he INTENDED to do with the setting, but they are not cannon. Events, personalities, or facts stated do not influence the official published setting and materials. I appreciate his input as far as crafting my own Eberron game goes, however I look at it as a couple of DMs sharing ideas for a setting. When it comes to discussing the official setting, and drawing official conclusions on information given (like the existence/nonexistence of deities or true source of divine magic), I use published material. And according to published material, there seems to be no conclusive proof that the Host/Six or Flame, or any phenomena exist as deities or divine entities or grant spellcasting powers, and that it's possible for the non-divine and non-deities to inspire worshipers/faiths and spawn divine spellcasters just as well as these supposedly divine sources.
Hellcow 03-23-07, 12:45 PM	Sharn: The City of Towers clearly stated that the BoV sect was a variant that had beliefs not in keeping with the mainstream, and were ignorant of the true nature of the faith. For what it's worth, When I wrote Sharn, I didn't include those "it's only an obscure Sharn sect" statements; they were added in by the editors. When I wrote it, it certainly wasn't supposed to be "an obscure sect found only in Sharn". And bear in mind that at the time, "the true nature of the faith" had nothing to do with what has since been written in Faiths of Eberron; this was years before FoE was written, and "the true nature" was perceived as "duped servants of Erandis." My goal was to emphasize that the Blood of Vol DIDN'T worship Erandis, and had a strong foundation of faith in which she could play an important role, but in which the faith could continue without her. In writing Sharn, I was presenting my original view of the Blood of Vol (which was, as an aside, originally the national religion of Karrnath as opposed to being suppressed and hidden). I agree with Alex_ in that my opinions expressed on these boards are not official and carry no weight; this is what I do in my campaign. However, I will also note that none of the authors of FoE worked on the original setting books, and that the version of the BoV presented in FoE is just as much of a shift from the ECS version as that suggested in Sharn; in my opinion, it's simply the case that the powers that be at WotC were by this time willing to accept significant change. But it's not as if this was how it was planned back in the founding days of Eberron or anything like that. I respect C.A.Suleiman as a writer and game designer, and I think that he did an excellent job with his work in Faiths of Eberron. However, I still use my "obscure Sharn sect" as the foundation of the BoV across Khorvaire. With that said, I should also note that I did talk with C.A. briefly while he was working on FoE, and that there are many ideas that I quite like, especially since he had a chapter to work with instead of half a page. The essential concept that there is divinity within mortals waiting to be realized IS what my original version is all about; our primary difference is his assertion that the BoV doesn't believe in any gods, and my assertion that the BoV believes that the gods are hostile entities that are preventing humanity from attaining its true potential. The reason I prefer this is because it sets up an immediate conflict between followers of the BoV and followers of the Sovereign Host/Silver Flame. I don't just think you're WRONG; I think you are a fool who is serving and empowering the very monsters who have denied us of our divinity. In fighting you, I am doing my best to save ALL mortals. And because as has been suggested, I like that question of "What just god could allow suffering"; removing gods from the equation entirely eliminates that issue. So, FoE is published material. However, the Sharn excerpt wasn't originally written with any of the disclaimers about it being a divergent sect, and frankly, if I'd written exactly what's in FoE at the time, I can assure you that IT would have had those same "divergent sect" disclaimers thrown onto it. Essentially, the PTB just didn't want to shift the direction of the faith at the time, while I was trying to restore it to my original vision. But as always, that is just what I do in my game, and it's all up to the individual DM.
Hellcow 03-23-07, 01:04 PM	Actually, I haven't read FoE recently, but there's another point at which it may be at odds with my vision. Alex_, you said that by FoE, the Blood of Vol believed that selfish acts could result in immortality. In my obscure Sharn sect version, the BoV is actually a religion that places a great emphasis on community, sacrifice, and selflessness. To begin with, it's the case that becoming undead isn't the path to immortality; it is itself a terrible sacrifice, because as you lose the blood, you can NEVER attain the true divinity within. You are giving up your true potential to become a champion and teach for future generations. I think FoE DOES address this, but I can't recall. The typical follower of the BoV doesn't want to be undead; he wants the true divinity that is his birthright. Beyond that, the sacrament of blood is about sacrifice made to support these undead champions, and also an action that brings the community together. It is a group sacrifice and a blending of our blood, emphasizing that as a community we are of one blood. Finally, in the "Against the Gods" scenario, the concept is that if victory is ever attained, it wil be a victory for ALL mortal beings. Even as we fight the zealots of Thrane and the fools who blindly serve the monstrous Sovereigns, we are through our faith trying to save them. So by my eyes, the Blood of Vol is anything but a selfish religion. And the current path to (limited) immortality is seen as a terrible sacrifice, not a selfish course of action. With that said, there are many undead "champions" who aren't interested in pursuing the goals of the faith, and who instead take advantage of the blind faith of their followers; from what we've seen, this includes Erandis herself. However, this is no different from any other religion, as we can see from the highlighted corruption in the Church of the Silver Flame; while it's not called out as often, there are certainly corrupt priests of the Sovereign Host as well.
Hellcow 03-23-07, 02:48 PM	No, their FAITH empowers them. Not the Flame. I'd say this is open to debate. Without faith, there is no power; but is the faith the source of the power, or is the faith the conduit that lets you touch the power? To cross-post something I posted on another thread.... ---------------- It would be a clever (or smart-arse) player indeed who could propose a form of transcendent importance to a teakettle. I agree. The concept that in Eberron you can "worship anything" is really more of a game mechanic than anything else. It's saying that you can create small sects with unusual beliefs and have them receive divine power. However, the DM must approve any alternate religion, and should feel free to dismiss anything that seems frivilous. It's POSSIBLE that someone could come up with a religion where he believes HE is god and gain spells from it... if the DM believes that his relion is logical, internally consistent, and has a belief structure that suits the needs of the game. Domains must be justified; if I believe in "Me-ism", why does that come with the War and Death domains? A cleric can technically gain spells from any set of beliefs... but he can also LOSE his spells if he fails to follow his doctrine. Likewise, he can commune or atone - who does he believe is answering his spell or accepting his atonement? It doesn't have to be a god as such - but if he believes in Me-ism, under what circumstances could he lose his abilities, and how does he see commune working? Likewise, the whole point is that it takes a person of truly exceptional faith to start a new faith. There's no rules for this, because PCs are truly exceptional people. But there's a reason that you don't see scads of kettle-worship style faiths mentioned in the books - because it is easier to derive clerical powers from worship of one of the major religions than to start your own. So where do spells come from? How is it that a cleric who violates his faith loses spellcasting ability? Who responds to commune or atonement? The key is that in Eberron, there's no way to know with 100% certainty. But SOMETHING answers. Some force strips the cleric of power, and returns the power on atonement. A few possibilities: Gods do exist. The amazing number of cultures that worship variations of the Sovereign Host, using similar names and symbols for their gods, along with that fact that it's easier to gain divine power by worshipping a Sovereign than by worshipping a shoe, suggests that there is some truth to the beliefs of the Sovereigns. These gods provide power to other faiths. As someone suggested on another thread, the Lord of Blades doesn't have divine rank, but some people worship him and gain spells. But what if those spells actually come from the Traveler? The Traveler is a god of both artifice (giving a connection to the warforged) and chaos. Perhaps it enjoys empowering this little faith and letting the warforged BELIEVE their lord is a god, because of the chaos it will cause in the future. All magic, both divine and arcane, is drawn from Siberys. Regardless of belief, Siberys is the ultimate source of power... and there's no reason SIBERYS can't be a sentient force. Why it chooses to play the role of a hundred different divinities, why it enforces the codes of each, that's a mystery - but it does. Gods are an invention of the mortal psyche, and exist as concepts in the collective unconscious. They have no physical existence, but are nonetheless forces with sentience, capable of drawing on the power of Siberys to empower their followers. By this theory, mortals create their gods, which is why it's easier to gain power from a major faith than to create your own. And by this theory, the Lord of Blades IS a god - but he's also a mortal, and the god and mortal are two entirely separate entities. The worship of the Lord of Blades has created a divine avatar of the LoB on this metaphysical level, but the mortal LoB has no contact with it or control over it; it is the idealized form of the Lord of Blades as seen by his followers. These are just a few possible ideas. But if you WANT there to be gods in Eberron, make it so. The point of Eberron is that it's uncertain, that you can't MEET a god. But the cosmology can certainly support the idea that there are gods out there. ----------------------- Back to this thread... And according to published material, there seems to be no conclusive proof that the Host/Six or Flame, or any phenomena exist as deities or divine entities or grant spellcasting powers, and that it's possible for the non-divine and non-deities to inspire worshipers/faiths and spawn divine spellcasters just as well as these supposedly divine sources. Certainly. As I've said, this has always been a point of the setting. There are things that suggest the existence of gods; the Banor/Baalkan/Balinor example is drawn directly from published material. The existence of the Silver Flame itself is not in question - but whether it is actually a divine entity that grants spells to its worshippers can certainly be debated. Regardless of which version of the Blood of Vol you follow, the believe in the divinity within. The Path of Light doesn't believe in a god; they seek to usher in the age of il-Yannah, but at this point in time, il-Yannah doesn't exist, so they don't believe that il-Yannah answers their prayers. So I agree completely: in Eberron, it is clearly possible for people to derive divine spellcasting power from a source that is not a deity (or at least, to derive divine power without believing in a deity). However, in creating a system whereby anyone with sufficient faith could possess divine spellcasting ability, it wasn't my intent to say that the power is internally generated by that faith alone - but rather that the faith is what allows the caster to touch and channel a source of power, regardless of whether that source is what he believes it to be. With that said, as there can be no proof in these matters, you can obviously do whatever makes the most sense to you in your campaign.
ArcTan 03-24-07, 03:15 AM	Actually, I haven't read FoE recently, but there's another point at which it may be at odds with my vision. Alex_, you said that by FoE, the Blood of Vol believed that selfish acts could result in immortality. In my obscure Sharn sect version, the BoV is actually a religion that places a great emphasis on community, sacrifice, and selflessness. To begin with, it's the case that becoming undead isn't the path to immortality; it is itself a terrible sacrifice, because as you lose the blood, you can NEVER attain the true divinity within. You are giving up your true potential to become a champion and teach for future generations. I think FoE DOES address this, but I can't recall. The typical follower of the BoV doesn't want to be undead; he wants the true divinity that is his birthright. Beyond that, the sacrament of blood is about sacrifice made to support these undead champions, and also an action that brings the community together. It is a group sacrifice and a blending of our blood, emphasizing that as a community we are of one blood. Finally, in the "Against the Gods" scenario, the concept is that if victory is ever attained, it wil be a victory for ALL mortal beings. Even as we fight the zealots of Thrane and the fools who blindly serve the monstrous Sovereigns, we are through our faith trying to save them. So by my eyes, the Blood of Vol is anything but a selfish religion. And the current path to (limited) immortality is seen as a terrible sacrifice, not a selfish course of action. With that said, there are many undead "champions" who aren't interested in pursuing the goals of the faith, and who instead take advantage of the blind faith of their followers; from what we've seen, this includes Erandis herself. However, this is no different from any other religion, as we can see from the highlighted corruption in the Church of the Silver Flame; while it's not called out as often, there are certainly corrupt priests of the Sovereign Host as well. So do you really mean to say you don't support the idea of the Blood of Vol being a "Lawful Evil" religion? ETA: To clarify, I don't think being a religion of community and self-sacrifice necessarily makes you not Evil; it just makes you Lawful. The Nazis' doctrine very much emphasized community and sacrifice for the greater good -- it just very clearly defined the greater good as the greater good for *us*, not them, and an us very much defined by power and dominance and the triumph of the will over all (which spells Lawful Evil to me, I don't know about you). But you're here talking almost like you think the Blood of Vol is itself Neutral, that if you removed the conspirators from it the doctrines and teachings and so on wouldn't be bad at all. I don't quite like this -- I like the idea of having something that looks like just another religion but really *is* rotten at the core, much as the Nazis really did have all kinds of community socials and character-building youth retreats and charity initiatives and such but were still, in the end, genocidal bastards who destroyed the freedom of the human spirit to achieve tyranny. I know, I know, I can run the BoV however I want -- but I thought this really was what people were trying to do with the BoV (right up to comparing the Emerald Claw to Nazi soldiers, doing the dirty work of the BoV while the main body carries on oblivious and supposedly non-complicit). I've defended FoE's take on the BoV with a stat block still calling it Lawful Evil for this reason -- that the sidebar makes clear what should be evident from a careful reading of the doctrine of the Blood, that there's a lot of irony in the sympathetic reading the book tries to give it, that despite all the nuance in it it is still a scary f***ed up religion whose members you wouldn't want to meet. But that may just be me.
ArcTan 03-24-07, 03:32 AM	With that said, I should also note that I did talk with C.A. briefly while he was working on FoE, and that there are many ideas that I quite like, especially since he had a chapter to work with instead of half a page. The essential concept that there is divinity within mortals waiting to be realized IS what my original version is all about; our primary difference is his assertion that the BoV doesn't believe in any gods, and my assertion that the BoV believes that the gods are hostile entities that are preventing humanity from attaining its true potential. The reason I prefer this is because it sets up an immediate conflict between followers of the BoV and followers of the Sovereign Host/Silver Flame. I don't just think you're WRONG; I think you are a fool who is serving and empowering the very monsters who have denied us of our divinity. In fighting you, I am doing my best to save ALL mortals. And because as has been suggested, I like that question of "What just god could allow suffering"; removing gods from the equation entirely eliminates that issue. Honestly, I think from my perspective this isn't that huge a difference anyway. The traditional D&D definition of "atheist" -- this being in worlds where any high-level spellcaster can easily visit the gods -- is not that you don't believe the gods *exist* but that you think of the gods as *irrelevant*. You don't worship them, you don't give them honor, you don't think about them much, you try to avoid them. Just as I think a lot of people who identify as "atheist" in real life are really agnostics in the ontological sense -- they don't know for sure whether God or gods exist; they just choose to act like they don't because the idea of divinity doesn't appeal to them, and as far as they can see they don't lose anything by not believing in them. Clearly, any sane follower of the Blood of Vol knows that divine magic exists and that the faith of Clerics in the Sovereign Host gives them *something*. In my view -- a syncretic view of what Keith's said here and what FoE says -- they just don't *care*. Whatever it is that gives the Vassals their power, they don't like it, they don't respect it and they don't want any part of it. "Against the Gods" doesn't have to mean that you actually believe in specific gods that you're against. Many people in real life who identify as people who hate God or are angry at God don't actually believe in any particular religion's god seriously -- they just believe that whatever conscious being made the world, *if* a conscious being made the world, is not worthy of respect. The world is cruel and unfair. The laws that govern the world are arbitrary and high-handed and pointless, intolerably so. They should be rebelled against, altered, defeated. If some entity is responsible for enforcing them, he must be wrested from power. If it's merely the dead letter of the laws of nature running things, it must be edited. The way I see the interaction between the BoV and the SH, the Blood of Vol teaches that the way the world is is intolerable, bad, unfair, and must be overturned. The Sovereign Host, whatever else they represent, represent the *way the world is*, the idea that there is logic and justice behind the way of the world. This is wrong, and must be opposed. It *doesn't matter* whether Balinor and Arawai and Olladra and Dol Dorn are real sentient beings who ordained that the world be this way, or are merely explanations created by priests of the Host for the power of nature that empowers them. Either way, it is an evil thing that must be erased. The constant filling of graves through war is an evil that must be abolished, and the Dol siblings are horrible for finding virtue in it and demanding it continue, whether they're real people who demand this or symbols of the fact that it continues to happen. The cycle of nature that rests on eat-or-be-eaten must end, and with it the beings Arawai and Balinor who represent that cycle. The shortage that leads to hunger and want that leads to trade and capital that leads to greed -- it must vanish, and all must live in plenty forever. Death to Kol Korran. The uncertainty of life must break before the will to live and the will to power. Death to Olladra. The rules that govern the world are of no consequence next to the will that can change it. Death to Aureon. The constraints of mortal technology and artifice, bound by Aureon's laws, are meaningless when compared to the power of true will and true life -- the endless death and pain caused by the spread of machines across the land shall bow to the power of Blood. Death to Onatar. War, nature, technology, chance -- these are all things anathema to the rule of mortal will over the world. They represent the rule of the world over mortal will. The *idea* of gods, whatever the gods are gods of, is anathema to the Blood, so it doesn't matter what gods you worship -- they will oppose it. Some members of the Blood probably really do believe in the Host as beings who cursed humanity with death, but others probably just think of the Host as symbols made by foolish, weak-willed, self-destructive, anti-life humans who have accepted the way of the world, chosen to anthropomorphize and worship it. Either way the sentiment is the same -- "What kind of gods would make a world like this?" I think this explains why, for instance, the Blood of Vol is no friend to worship of the Dark Six, except in rare heretical practices -- because the Blood is opposed to the idea of *gods*, not just a particular set of gods. The Six and the Host are two sides of the same coin, and the Six just represent the unfriendly or hard-to-deal with parts of the world as it is -- but it's still the world as it is. The Devourer or the Fury *might* be figures that the Blood could identify with in their opposition to the gods -- except that the Devourer and the Fury are *themselves* gods, *themselves* represent portions of the world as it exists, *themselves* represent natural forces to which the mortal will must bow. They won't do that. No human will should have to give in to the greater will of the storms or wild predators to be devoured. No rational human will should find itself possessed and undermined by the passion of the Fury. No human will should be subject to natural and magical law, either open and respected or hidden and shadowy and secret. No human soul should be hoarded by the Keeper (although there are some who might twist the idea of the Keeper to fit BoV doctrine). And certainly no humans should have to submit to the capricious will of the Traveler. Again, whether these entities are real or not, they represent ideas -- treacherous war, destructive forces of nature, chaotic upset, and death itself -- that the Blood will not bow to. Real or not, sentient or not, they do not bow to the higher powers. ...It makes sense to me that way, anyway.
Hellcow 03-24-07, 10:50 AM	So do you really mean to say you don't support the idea of the Blood of Vol being a "Lawful Evil" religion? The Blood of Vol ISN'T a lawful evil religion. It is a religion that draws power from a lawful evil force. As worshippers in Eberron don't have to match the alignment of the force that they worship, that means that it is possible to have a neutral, lawful neutral, or even lawful good follower of the Silver Flame... just as the majority of the followers of the Path of Light are lawful good, but the source of power of the religion is lawful neutral. But you're here talking almost like you think the Blood of Vol is itself Neutral, that if you removed the conspirators from it the doctrines and teachings and so on wouldn't be bad at all. That's exactly what I think. Remember, I was promoting it as the publically acknowledged state religion of Karrnath. As such, I wanted it to be a religion that a peasant would voluntarily join: a religion that made sense to people. It might be a religion that is deeply disturbing to outsiders - but one that its followers believe serves a good cause. but I thought this really was what people were trying to do with the BoV (right up to comparing the Emerald Claw to Nazi soldiers, doing the dirty work of the BoV while the main body carries on oblivious and supposedly non-complicit). What I was trying to do with the BoV from the begining was to create a religion which, while based on inherently reasonable and even noble principles, has irreconcilable differences with the other major religions of the age, and the practices of which are deeply disturbing to outsiders. The point was to say that the typical member of the Blood of Vol is NOT a bad person; he's a peasant following the traditions of his ancestors, who believes that through his devotion, he will bring an end to death. The Emerald Claw, on the other hand, ARE bad. They are extremists who follow a perverted version of the faith, who care less for its actual values than for the desires of the Queen of the Dead. As it is known that they are followers of the Blood of Vol, their actions shed a bad light on the entire faith. Essentially, look at Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. All of these religions are based on principles of peace. And yet, due to the actions of extremists, bigots, and irreconcilable differences in doctrines, there's been a tremendous amount of blood shed over the centuries. That's what I wanted from the Blood of Vol. A religion feared and distrusted by outsiders. A religion with a clear reason to hate the Sovereign Host, even if its followers are fools rather than knowingly evil. But not a flat out EVIL faith... a faith which its followers can defend as clearly being a noble cause. Again, the Sharn excerpt pretty much outlines my view of things. A community that comes together to share their blood to aid their undead saviors. I think that overall, lawful neutral is the typical alignment; they look after each other and they believe in a noble cause, but they also expect that others will fight that battle and that they will simply support it. I believe that many members of the Blood of Vol would not approve of the actions of the Emerald Claw, if they were publically revealed and proven; however, as this is a world without the instant media coverage we have today, it would be hard to prove this, and to prove that a particular Emerald Claw action isn't the work of a few bad apples. But my original intent was that the Emerald Claw were extremists operating beyond the standard faith - just as in our world, there are violent extremeists associated with many essentially peaceful religions. I like the idea of having something that looks like just another religion but really *is* rotten at the core, much as the Nazis really did have all kinds of community socials and character-building youth retreats and charity initiatives and such but were still, in the end, genocidal bastards who destroyed the freedom of the human spirit to achieve tyranny. And in Eberron, you have the fact that Erandis herself - along with her inner circle - has no interest in the faith of the religion as I described above. She has used the faith to build a power base, people who believe that she will lead them to salvation - but at the end of the day, she's your genocidal tyrant. The FAITH may not be evil; that doesn't prevent it from being abused for evil ends, and in Eberron, that's exactly the case. But the typical farmer who follows the Blood does so because he believes in its message, and it may be a positive force in his life. Note that what the FOE stat block says is "Those who follow the Blood of Vol seek the immortality within, and many do not know of or willingly support the secret ambitions of the cult's leader." The main differences with my version are that the followers believe they can unlock this immortality for EVERYONE, and that they blame the gods for the suffering of mortals. But that essential point - they seek immortality and do not know the true agenda of their leader - remains sound. the sidebar makes clear what should be evident from a careful reading of the doctrine of the Blood, that there's a lot of irony in the sympathetic reading the book tries to give it, that despite all the nuance in it it is still a scary f***ed up religion whose members you wouldn't want to meet. Which sidebar? "The Symbol of the Blood of Vol"? This sidebar is written from the perspective of an outsider of the faith; "it would be surprising if a religion of death-obsessed necromancers did not have a skull of some kind in their symbology." Right there: The Blood of Vol isn't actually death-obsessed as much as it is LIFE obsessed; they embrace necromancy as a weapon AGAINST death. This is a clear example of what I WAS trying to do - to create a faith that would be feared and misunderstood by outsiders, but is not really as bad as people think. I wouldn't want to meet Malevenor, and I CERTAINLY wouldn't want to meet Erandis. Many of the leaders of the BoV are cruel people abusing the faith of their followers. But in my opinion, the typical follower of the Blood of Vol is not a bad person. It's an ideal faith for the hard Karrnathi. Consider: The gods hate you and have doomed humanity to suffering and death. You are engaged in what you know to be an essentially hopeless war against them, and you know that your faith causes you to be feared and distrusted by their followers - dupes tricked into believing that these gods are noble beings. All you have are your brothers in faith. You will stand together, you will support the faith, and if you are lucky, you may see immortality in your lifetime. If not, once your soul has gone to Dollurh and been destroyed by the curse of the gods, you hope that your priest will raise your bones so you can continue the fight until your very bones are ground to dust. It's a faith with a noble goal. But it's also a very grim, dark faith. It asserts not that there are no gods, but that there are gods and they HATE us. Life is a struggle that will not only end in death, but utter destruction of the spirit. Because of your devotion, you are distrusted and feared by most of the world. All you have are your fellows in Blood - but you know they will stand by you, in life and undeath. Life I said, very Karrnathi in my eyes. But obviously this is what I want, not what is - except, of course, in Sharn. ;) You're free to do whatever you want in your game.
Hellcow 03-24-07, 11:04 AM	"Against the Gods" doesn't have to mean that you actually believe in specific gods that you're against. Oh, I agree. When I've said that they believe in the Sovereign Host, I don't necessarily mean that they specifically believe in Dol Dorn, Dol Arrah, etc. They simply believe that there is some force that answers the prayers of the followers of the SH, and that it is this force that brought mortality and suffering to the world. Maybe these are the Sovereigns as depicted, maybe not; it really doesn't matter to them. The key issue is that there is a "divine" force out there... an intelligent architect of death and suffering. With that said, what you suggest makes perfect sense. Some members of the Blood probably really do believe in the Host as beings who cursed humanity with death, but others probably just think of the Host as symbols made by foolish, weak-willed, self-destructive, anti-life humans who have accepted the way of the world, chosen to anthropomorphize and worship it. Either way the sentiment is the same -- "What kind of gods would make a world like this?" Sure. I think this explains why, for instance, the Blood of Vol is no friend to worship of the Dark Six, except in rare heretical practices... I don't see any reason for the BoV to feel any sympathy with the D6. In my opinion, they see no difference between Host and Six; and even if they did, the Keeper and the Shadow are perfect examples of what they DO think gods are, forces that bring suffering and horror to the world. Essentially, I think that the typical BoVer thinks that the D6 are where the SHers have allowed themselves a glimpse of the true nature of the gods - and that they refuse to see that this is all that the gods are. So yes, I agree that when I say that a significant portion of the BoV believes in the existence of gods, I don't mean that they care about or pay any heed to the precise doctrine of the SH or believe that the SH has accurately depicted their gods - on the contrary, I'd say that they think that the SHers have been fooled by bright masks, and that the true faces of the gods are far worse. The follower of the BoV isn't going to say "You fool! Boldrei is EEEEEEvil!" He's going to say "If you have a loving goddess of community watching over you, why do you have homeless beggars in the street? Why has your bountiful goddess of the harvest allowed this famine?" If anything, their view of gods is far closer to the Dark Six, and they believe that these inherently malign beings have tricked the SHers into worshipping them in the form of the Sovereigns. But that doesn't mean that the BoVers all believe that the gods ARE the Dark Six. Again, the key is that they believe that there is some sentient, malign force that is working to prevent mortals from achieving their true potential - whether this force is anything like what humans have been tricked into believing is another story, and one that probably varies between different BoV sects.
Hellcow 03-24-07, 12:07 PM	...In the end, genocidal bastards who destroyed the freedom of the human spirit to achieve tyranny. Just as a side note, this is actually why I focused the religion on a GLOBAL fight against death and suffering - an all-or-nothing "We will save everyone in the world" as opposed to a religion focused on looking within and fighting a personal battle. The former makes the followers far easier to manipulate. Erandis can say "Before we can bring an end to suffering, we must stop those who empower the gods by worshipping them... and the only way we can do that it through conquest. We MUST conquer them and force them to change their beliefs, for the good of all living things." In addition, the statement that the undead are the champions and mentors - that they, essentially, know more than you can possibly learn in your single lifetime, and that if this struggle is to be won, they will be the ones to organize it - it makes the followers easier to manipulate. We're back to selfish vs selfless; if it's possible for me to completely ignore you and still gain my personal divinity, there's less motivation for me to fight you. If I have to fight for all of us, and if I'm taught that my leaders are the only ones who know how this fight can be done, I can have truly noble intentions, yet still be manipulated into harsh action. In FoE, CAS made the BoV somewhat more introspective. I agree with the idea of the Divinity Within, that all mortal creatures are inherently divine. And I like the idea of a sect that believes it is possible to achieve full potential on a personal basis (supporting the thief of life). But my intention in making it a global struggle was to create a clear conflict between the BoV and the other faiths, which unscrupulous priests could use for their own ends. Going back to the question of "Lawful Evil religion", it's back to the fact that alignment is always uncertain in Eberron, even in religion. You can have evil priests of the (good) Silver Flame, good priests of the (neutral) Path of Light, and neutral priests of the (evil) Blood of Vol. The high priest of the Blood in Sharn is neutral. In my opinion, the evil priests are most likely to be those manipulating their followers to achieve their personal ends; the good priests those fervently and selflessly dedicated to the stated goals of the religion; and the neutrals those who focus on the traditions and caring for their personal flock.
Bluebrush 03-24-07, 12:12 PM	The Blood of Vol ISN'T a lawful evil religion. It is a religion that draws power from a lawful evil force.One thing I'm not quite clear on: What is the force they draw on? Related question, what does a BoV priest/follower have to say when his normally compassionate cleric friend's aura shows up as Evil with detect evil? (In a manner which cannot be easily denied. Say he's an artificer with a wand which has worked in all other situations.)
Hellcow 03-24-07, 11:30 PM	One thing I'm not quite clear on: What is the force they draw on? The answer of a typical priest would most likely be the collective divinity of their race. The actual answer? No one knows, any more than they do any other god. Whatever it is, it shows up as lawful and evil. Related question, what does a BoV priest/follower have to say when his normally compassionate cleric friend's aura shows up as Evil with detect evil? I've discussed this in other threads, usually in regard to paladins. In my campaign, detect evil is a vague yardstick at best. People aren't going to see someone trigger as evil and say "OH MY GOD! HE'S A MURDERER! GET HIM!" There are evil people all around you. Hopefully not as many as good or neutral, but nonetheless, evil is a part of life. Beyond this, in Eberron, it's a simple fact that detect spells aren't 100% clear. Because clerics in Eberorn don't have to match the alignment of their deity, you can have a good cleric of an evil god, and vice versa - meaning that the person will respond to both detect good and detect evil. Beyond THAT you have the fact that people of good alignment can still perform evil deeds, and vice versa. As such, if a person who KNOWS that a cleric has provided well for his community uses the wand and the person shows up as evil, I think he'd shake his head and carry on as usual. I'd expect him to be slightly more cautious in his dealings with this person, to maybe watch him more closely, but if the person ACTS in a good way, how he triggers on detect really doesn't mean much. Another way of looking at alignment is like the dark side in Star Wars. Yoda looks at Luke - who we can certainly hope is good - and says "There is much anger in him." Pinging as evil on detect evil means, at the least, that you have the POTENTIAL to do evil; but it doesn't mean that you necessarily are a vicious killer. It's a cause for concern, but not necessarily immediate action. A final point on this: Per my campaign, the Blood of Vol is strongest in hard, harsh lands - Karrnath and dark places in the Lhazaar Principalities. Kaius is an evil man - but he is a man who cares for his people and acts to protect them. He is evil because of the extremes he will go to in order to protect them - because he will murder, massacre, or torture if it is what's best for his people. The Karrns respect this; it's what they expect from the leaders. So: "evil" can be a mugger who kills for personal gain, and that will be frowned upon. But it can also be the ruthless man who acts outside common morality in pursuit of what he considers the greater good. Unless there is reason to believe otherwise, I'd expect a follower of the Blood of Vol to assume his priest falls into this category. What I've said is that the BoV has a noble long-term goal - to abolish sickness and death. But the religion certainly advocates sacrifice and harsh action in pursuit of that goal. It is a grim faith: the universe is against you, there is nothing waiting after death but cold oblivion, and most of the world is trapped in the thrall of cruel gods. If it has a predilection towards evil, one of the reasons is because the world is a cruel place; once death is done there will be time for gentle morality, but at the moment you must do whatever is set in your path in the name of the cause. I've said that community is an important value, but an example of community values among the BoV is the communal sacrifice of blood to sustain the undead. ArcTan said a while back that it's that "a scary f***ed up religion whose members you wouldn't want to meet." In my opinion, there's a huge difference between a dedicated follower of the Blood and a cultist of the Dragon Below. The cultist may be disturbing from the get go. The random BoVer may not SEEM disturbing right off the bat. He stands by his brethren. He's a man of his word. He doesn't torture small animals for the fun of it, which the Dragon Belower might. But if his priest orders the BoVer to kill you or torture you, stating that it is necessary in the name of the Blood, odds are good he'll do it. He'll probably be as quick and efficient as possible; he doesn't relish causing pain or condemning another soul to oblivion. But the world is a hard place, and sacrifices must be made. Life is a battle, and if you're lucky your bones will be raised to fight after death, so you can continued to defy the cruel gods even after your soul has been broken. Essentially, you can find evil people in the Church of the Silver Flame, who are willing to torture in the name of the faith. But most followers of the Flame would be horrified by this. Among the Blood of Vol, the response would be that life IS horror, and that it is the cause of Vol that may one day bring paradise to Eberron. The BoVer may feel that torture IS a horrible thing - but someday, there will be a world where there is no pain or death. If you must suffer so we can get closer to that goal, so be it. So: it's a different sort of evil, and a different sort of person you wouldn't want to meet. Like Kaius, it's a matter of people being willing to embrace evil methods in pursuit of noble goals. It's a faith that is easily abused by unscrupulous priests, people who fit the more traditional mode of evil. But as with all things, this is just my view... and as with all of the religions of Eberron, I believe that there are variations within the faith. Perhaps these are just the practices of the duped Sharn sect. Perhaps the BoV is a selfish faith, or a cruel one - at the end of hte day it's up to you.
ArcTan 03-25-07, 01:02 AM	One thing I'm not quite clear on: What is the force they draw on? See, I'm not comfortable saying there's a "force" there, outside of what the religion itself teaches, that imposes the alignment descriptors on the religion. If the religion itself is not associated with an alignment, then the connection feels too arbitrary to me -- it lands far too hard on the side of "The gods are real, external entities" argument. If the possibility that the gods are merely fictions of their believers is true, then everything about a religion -- from my POV -- has to in some way be explainable by what the people believe. Having people believe something Good or Neutral but have it "ping" as Evil strikes me too much like saying "It doesn't matter what you believe, the *real* god out there is Evil", one of the things I hated about Forgotten Realms' treatment of deities. I would say that I wouldn't treat a religion as LE unless there was something about the belief system that was in favor of Law, and of Evil. That doesn't mean the *person* is LE, just that the cause they've devoted themselves to doesn't match their own alignment, which is far from uncommon. I strongly believe that if you questioned Cardinal Krozen on what he believed about the Silver Flame and the nature of the divine, he would reply with textbook answers that argued very strongly in favor of a Good philosophy -- it's just that when he puts these into *practice*, his behavior becomes highly Evil. That's what doublethink and hypocrisy are. Similarly the way I handle, say, Chaotic Good BoVers is that their *beliefs*, when they explain them to you, are scary and tyrannical and evil -- all humanity *must* band together under the reign of the Queen of Death in order to pool our mortal powers to defeat the natural order -- but he himself, consciously or not, defies these ideas in the way he lives -- he loves freedom too much in his heart to be ruled by the powers he serves in his mind. But this is a form of hypocrisy, and if he were *forced* to be made completely aware of it, he'd have to choose between his alignment and his faith, just as Cardinal Krozen would be. But this is just me, again.
Hellcow 03-25-07, 12:34 PM	One thing I'm not quite clear on: What is the force they draw on? This also ties to another open question: what is the source of the sentience of Karrnathi undead? As a rule, Karrnathi undead do not possess memories of their former lives. All Karrnathi skeletons possess exactly the same set of skills, and if you check the monster description, you'll see that they can't advance - a critical difference between Karrnathi undead and the warforged, who are capable of improving over time. So Karrnathi undead are intelligent, but this inabillity to advance suggests that it's a very inhuman form of sentience. This also ties to the fact that the undead serve without question: they return to existence ready to fight for their nation. A common sentiment among the Karrns is that the undead are empowered by the militant spirit of Karrnath itself; this is supported by the fact that Karrnathi undead can only be created using the bodies of elite Karrnathi soldiers who have fallen in battle; technically speaking, while a Karrnathi necromancer can raise the corpse of a Thrane peasant, he can't raise him as Karrnathi undead. Perhaps this is true; perhaps not. It may be that the force that empowers the Karrnathi undead is something far darker. Certainly, all Karrnathi undead are lawful evil; here again this is a question of whether this evil represents a malicious nature, or simply an absolute lack of empathy and the willingness to cause pain and suffering without remorse. If there IS a force empowering the Blood of Vol beyond the divinity within, it may be that it is the same force that empowers the Karrnathi undead... in which case Kaius could one day regret maintaining the undead garrisons, if Malevenor or Erandis can seize control of these forces. With that said, I'll note that the inability of Karrnathi undead to advance, while part of the creature write-up, is something I do stretch a little in my own campaign. The process isn't supposed to be a cheap raise dead; one of the things that should make Karrnathi undead disturbing is that they are intelligent but inhuman. That may be your uncle's body, but it's not your uncle looking at you. However, while Karrnathi undead can't advance - while they don't gain experience over time - I have certainly created more powerful Karrnathi undead NPCs for use in specific situations. If you want a "Death Knight", so to speak - perhaps a bone knight raised as a Karrnathi zombie - do it. But the fact that Karrnathi undead don't improve over time, and that under normal circumstances they can't have levels in character classes, is certainly one of the things that helps balance them against the warforged, and is one reason Karrnath used warforged in the war. Karrnathi undead have many of the same advantages as warforged, and a few additional benefits (darkvision, greater DR unless the enemy is properly equipped, etc) - but if you want a tireless commando with rogue skills (for example), Cannith can make you one, but a Karrnathi skeleton won't be able to fill the role. (Of course, even if you do decide to create more versatile undead forces, there are other reasons for Karrnath to use warforged. They'd be useful along the Thrane front, where the enemy forces had greater access to Turn Undead... and, of course, as Kaius is no dummy, it's probably already occured to him that his undead forces may not be completely reliable.)
Sir Elton 04-02-07, 11:25 AM	I have a few questions regarding The Church of the Silver Flame. First, what is the church's opinion of shifters? I doubt they kill on sight, as they would with a lycanthrope, but do they dislike them or something? Second, isn't the Silver Flame the only actual manifestation of divine power in Eberron? The gods never appear or anything. Why doesn't the Silver Flame have more worshippers if it's the only religion with anything in the real world (Ebberon that is) to back it up? Thanks in advance. It's time for an "In my Campaign" reply. In my Campaign, I've Split the Silver Flame into essentially four sects. Followers of the Pure Flame (Flamists) -- represent the Puritan Aspect. I portray them as a sect of fanatics with a lot of Pharaseeism. The Flamists are the type that PREACH instead of minister. They also impose rules. Like "you can walk so many steps on Sunday" or "you can't wear sandals to church" or "you always dress your best." Flamists are Letter of the Law types (mostly LN). These are the kinds that persecute shifters and scholars of "Forbidden Knowledge" (i.e. The Golden Ratio, Epicureanism, Hedonism, Pythagoreanism, Aristotle's Physics and Metaphysics). They typically receive the Law, Good, Exorcism, and Glory domain (there, I found another use for the Glory domain). Saints of the Silver Flame -- This sect is more moderate in its devotions to the Silver Flame. They follow the Spirit of the Law instead of the Letter of the Law. They help the poor and the sick, and the widows. They practice a pure religion, since they profess they allow anyone to worship as they please (typically LG or NG). Clerics of the Saints typically have access to the Law, Good, Glory, Liberation, and Healing domains. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/5n_gallery/90025.jpg Cult of the Whispering Flame -- This is a small following of the darker side of the Church of the Whispering Flame. Like the worshipers of the Voice of the Night, these cultists listen to the dark whispers of the fiendish aspect of the Flame. (I don't have 5 Nations or Faiths, so this is just my interpretation) the clerics of the Whispering Flame get access to the following domains: Evil, Death, Fire, and Madness. Universal Church of the Silver Flame -- This fourth Church is the largest and most popular. I portray the Universal Church of the Silver Flame like the Catholic Church in the Medieval Age. It's a Church with a complex history and complex attitudes. Clerics and worshippers are typically in the middle of the three extremes. In other words, you have a Church that commits terrible and good things in the name of Holiness. Clerics of the Universal Church get the normal domains for clerics of the Silver Flame.