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| gensuke62605-26-07, 04:29 PM | Hello, New poster to the boards here. I'd like to begin this thread with a good solid question, "What is Keith Baker's interpretation of the Blood of Vol?" The reason I ask is because of the conflicting information I get on what is basically my favorite religion in Eberron. On the one hand, ECS and PG2E says that "they simply believe that blood is the source of life and that undeath is a path to divinity" (ECS 228) and "All that mortals have to look forward to is death, followed by an eternity speant in the bleak oblivion of Dolurrh..." "Death, therefore, must be conquered by undeath - the path that leads to eternal existence and, for some, to divinity." (PG2E 23) However Faiths of Eberron (Which I don't have on me at the moment. Posting from work) paints quite a different picture of the Blood. The undead are seen as tragic saints who have given up their chance at divinity and paradise for the sake of the mortals of the Cult. They are likened to Bhoddisattvas in that way, except there is no escape from the wheel for these enlightened souls. The main point of confusion blooms from a single fact. Keith Baker is not listed as one of the primary contributors to FoE. The FoE version of the Blood sings to me so sweetly, it makes it seem so obvious why anyone would want to be a member of the faith. It makes me wonder how anyone who knows it's core tenents can consider it evil. And yet, the ECS/PG2E version of the Blood makes it seem so evil that only the insane and naieve would willingly shuffle into the ranks. Personally, I'm going to stick to the FoE version, but I wanted to know what everyone else out there thinks of the Blood, and if Hellcow reads this, I'd also like to hear his take on the blood. Nothing more refreshing than knowledge from the source. |
| tallric_kruush05-26-07, 04:41 PM | The title you chose for the thread is fitting. This faith indeed has two faces. At least as I see it, there are two BoV faiths. There is the faith that the lay worshippers practice (FoE version could aptly represent this), and the reality of the BoV--a cult serving an evil, megalomaniacal Half-Dragon Lich who uses the followers of her "faith" as tools to further her own ends. If you have S:CoT supplement, the Graywall neighborhood in Tavick's Landing seems to represent this well. As of last week, I do own FoE. Unfortunately, I haven't yet been able to dig into it. This seeming discrepancy in the BoV was a major reason why I waited so long to buy it. I'm not a fan of conflicting sourcebooks. However, if we are careful to maintain the line between what the laity believe their faith is, and what the enlightened know the faith to truly be, each interpretation can be said to be true. Imagine the turmoil of a PC lay-person finding out his/her precious faith is a facade for a lich-following cult bent on world domination. :eek: |
| gensuke62605-26-07, 04:55 PM | That could be an interesting eventTallric. Once again, me thinks you've struck upon a golden idea. The reality and the church's facade would be a nice thing to play against each other in a Vol centered campaign. Though one conflict still is present...are intelligent undead seen as tragic bhodisattvas or as glorious avatars of the power of Vol? it almost doesn't matter but it affects whether I'd make characters praise them for their glorious sacrifice or praise them for simply being divine. |
| tallric_kruush05-26-07, 05:11 PM | Though one conflict still is present...are intelligent undead seen as tragic bhodisattvas or as glorious avatars of the power of Vol? it almost doesn't matter but it affects whether I'd make characters praise them for their glorious sacrifice or praise them for simply being divine. Again, I think this depends on which perspective your viewing it from. The lay worshipper would likely view them as the tragic hero. His faith is built upon the facade Vol has created. His admiration for the sacrifice these undead champions make in turn makes him more likely to go along with their wishes. Like Lan Hazal of Graywall (S:CoT p.93-4), these laity may not always agree with the methods of these champions, but they likely feel it's not their place to object. Thus, we see non-evil laity at times offering peripheral support to the evil acts of these undead and/or their minions (such as the Emerald Claw). A mortal Cleric of BoV, on the other hand (or any worshipper aware of the faith's true nature), may very well view intelligent undead as "glorious avatars" and examples of Vol's wondrous power. The cleric Garrow comes to mind. He was a recurring NPC in the published Eberron adventures. He is a changeling who often masquerades as a vampire. He wants nothing more than to be rewarded with intelligent undeath for his faithful service. Clearly, he represents this second line of thought. |
| gensuke62605-26-07, 05:14 PM | *ponders for a moment* hmm. I am truely beginning to appreciate the "All information is true" approach. This has given me much food for thought. Anyone else have comments? They are most welcome in this humble thread. |
| tallric_kruush05-26-07, 05:20 PM | *ponders for a moment* hmm. I am truely beginning to appreciate the "All information is true" approach. This has given me much food for thought. Anyone else have comments? They are most welcome in this humble thread. I'm glad you brought these questions up. Honestly, I'm just typing as the ideas form in my mind. I think, though, that my explanation makes all the sources yet provided fit together without contradictions. It just feels right, simply put. I'm curious to see how many completely disagree with me. I'm going to dig into the BoV section in FoE right now...without leaving the forums, of course.:D This little discussion has alleviated some of my worries about the publication, at least. |
| gensuke62605-26-07, 05:24 PM | Yeah. I'm going to take a quick break from this thread, hopefully someone else will pop in with an oppinion or 3. Personally I find the Blood to be the most interesting religion in Eberron. That and since Alignment is fluid, I had this Idea for a CG Cleric of Vol...:D |
| gaerfindel05-26-07, 05:54 PM | It's been pointed out that, for her own ends, Erandis likely perverted the teachings of the Qalabrin, upon whose practices the current religeon is based. Thus it is quite possible that the faith as professed by your average Seeker is indeed closer to the mark, historically speaking. |
| gensuke62605-26-07, 05:59 PM | I don't have FoE on me, and this is going to sound noobish, but...does FoE discuss the Qalabrin? It sounds familiar but no substansive info is coming to mind at the moment. |
| tallric_kruush05-26-07, 06:07 PM | I don't have FoE on me, and this is going to sound noobish, but...does FoE discuss the Qalabrin? It sounds familiar but no substansive info is coming to mind at the moment. Having just about completed my reading of the BoV section of FoE, I'm pretty sure it does not mention the Qabalrin-connection, beyond mentioning their calender and its significance to the faith. I believe they were originally created as a faction in a Eberron-based DnD RTS game. I can't remember the name of the game at the moment. More importantly, I did find this Eberron Expanded article by Keith Baker, using my frightening mastery of google-fu.;) Gensuke, in particular, should enjoy it, since he's such a fan of BoV. The potential connection is also mentioned in SoX and possibly PGtE (IIRC). The link, which I initially forgot to add, is here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebee/20060130a |
| gaerfindel05-26-07, 06:22 PM | I don't have FoE on me, and this is going to sound noobish, but...does FoE discuss the Qabalrin? It sounds familiar but no substansive info is coming to mind at the moment. The Qabalrin are not mentioned specifically, in FoE. However, on page 75 it is written "..Most would be surprised to learn that the roots of the faith stretch back tens of thousands of years to the time of the giants in Xen'drik." Furthermore, we have a quote from SoX: ..These elves were the mightiest conjurers and necromancers Xen'drik had ever seen, pioneering much of the necromantic techniques used in the present day--along with many of the fundamental principles of the religion that would one day becomes the Blood of Vol. According to legened, the Qabalrin created the first vampires...(p.52) |
| gensuke62605-26-07, 06:35 PM | Thanks Gaerfindel. That just prompted me to save my money and order SoX through my local hobby store. (when it was released i wasn't certain if I had a use for it...now I think I do.) And good find Tallric...I'll read that over my lunchbreak. Today has been an excellent day. :D |
| tallric_kruush05-26-07, 06:36 PM | .. I believe they were originally created as a faction in a Eberron-based DnD RTS game. I can't remember the name of the game at the moment...The potential connection is also mentioned in SoX and possibly PGtE (IIRC). It turns out I only half remembered correctly. gaerfindel has already cited the SoX reference. The references I thought might be in PGtE seem to not be there at all. It did name the video game the Qabalrin came from, though: Dragonshards. This was cited on the last page under the brief "Ring of Storms" paragraph. There's also a brief allusion to the faith's ancient roots in Xen'drik in the BoV section on p. 22. They don't specifically name the elves (the Qabalrin) in question, though. |
| gensuke62605-26-07, 07:12 PM | I see...excellent finds none the less Tallric. |
| mhacdebhandia05-27-07, 05:45 AM | On the one hand, ECS and PG2E says that "they simply believe that blood is the source of life and that undeath is a path to divinity" (ECS 228) and "All that mortals have to look forward to is death, followed by an eternity speant in the bleak oblivion of Dolurrh..." "Death, therefore, must be conquered by undeath - the path that leads to eternal existence and, for some, to divinity." (PG2E 23) However Faiths of Eberron (Which I don't have on me at the moment. Posting from work) paints quite a different picture of the Blood. The undead are seen as tragic saints who have given up their chance at divinity and paradise for the sake of the mortals of the Cult. They are likened to Bhoddisattvas in that way, except there is no escape from the wheel for these enlightened souls. From what I can tell, the Eberron Campaign Setting version is a simplified version of Keith Baker's original ideas, which are themselves closer to the Faiths of Eberron picture. Where Keith diverges from the latter is that Faiths of Eberron paints Seekers as atheistic, while Keith's original conception was that they would accept the possibility that the Sovereign Host exists, but paint them as villains who have forced the curse of death upon living beings. I think it's reasonable to look at the Eberron Campaign Setting version as the common beliefs of Erandis d'Vol's inner circle - particularly the "undeath is a path to divinity" bit. After all, the Blood of Vol as presented in the core setting is pretty much a villainous organisation, intended as an antagonist to the PCs, yeah? They need a creepy slant there. |
| gensuke62605-27-07, 03:56 PM | Thanks for the input mhacdebhandia. I think I'll do that or something similar if/when I run. Hmm...now if Only I could Lure Hellcow into this thread.... *starts hanging salt licks and putting out trays of tasty tasty grass.* |
| gelalshawr05-27-07, 04:35 PM | Thanks for the input mhacdebhandia. I think I'll do that or something similar if/when I run. Hmm...now if Only I could Lure Hellcow into this thread.... *starts hanging salt licks and putting out trays of tasty tasty grass.* Fiendish grass... remember it has to be fiendish grass! |
| gensuke62605-27-07, 04:41 PM | I guess fiendish grass would work...maybe I should just cast lure on the thicket basilisk and call it a day. |
| gelalshawr05-27-07, 06:09 PM | OHHHHHH!!! so you want to get him stoned. |
| tallric_kruush05-27-07, 06:16 PM | OHHHHHH!!! so you want to get him stoned. :heehee |
| Wizardman05-27-07, 07:17 PM | OHHHHHH!!! so you want to get him stoned. And now I'm wondering what Eberron would be like if Hellcow was stoned while putting it all together. There would be a race of awakened Great Danes that can't speak properly, wouldn't there? |
| gensuke62605-27-07, 07:20 PM | this thread is soo off topic in such a good way! :D Hmm...I suppose while I'm here...I've said earlier that I have a BoV cleric I've had in mind. Just a tid bit about him, Abel Kessler, NG Cleric of the Blood of Vol. Abel is quite possibly at once the most faithful and least informed of Vol's priesthood. He believes so strongly in the Divine Within and the public face of Vol that he has trouble understanding why the other religions consider his religion evil. Abel spends much of his time spreading the word of Vol. He breaks no laws, and simply preaches. When he can, he uses his magic to try to contact the deceaced relatives of potential converts, allowing them to speak to lost loved ones, one last time. One of Abel's defining quotes: Seeker: "Brother Abel, what does your paradise look like?" Abel: "My paradise? Well, it'll always have a cool breeze, but the sun will always shine through rolling clouds, like a most perfect day of Nymm. There will be a simple cottage, with a beautiful woman who keeps me company. Thick woods to the east and rolling grassland to the west, for me to explore for all eternity. And I'll find a way for my friends and loved ones to visit whenever they want. But, I'll never see my paradise, young seeker." Seeker: "But, why is that Brother Abel? Do you lack faith?" Abel: <Laughs> "No, no young seeker. I will never see it, because paradise would never be paradise for me if I died knowing that there are still seekers in the world who need my help. So, I plan to become a lich, to help seekers like yourself for all eternity." |
| tallric_kruush05-27-07, 07:37 PM | gensuke, Abel Kessler sounds like a very interesting roleplaying opportunity, if you find the right DM. I wonder, though, what will become of him if/when he ever learns the truth. The Crimson Covenant will certainly never raise him to their "enlightened" circle of friends. He could really prove quite useful to them serving as an effective (if misinformed) ambassador of the faith. In the end, if he ever were to learn the truth, maybe he'd found a new faith. The Abelists, if you will. I could see a couple of monasteries, a small chapter here and there.... If, that is, he didn't go join the Church of the Silver Flame in a fit of anger. |
| mhacdebhandia05-27-07, 07:48 PM | The other element of the Blood of Vol which was changed from Keith's original design, of course, is that it was originally the majority faith in Karrnath. I'm not clear on the details of how Keith uses it these days, but my interpretation is pretty straightforward: The Blood of Vol has historically been the most common faith in Karrnath, due in large part to the influence of elven refugees from Aerenal fleeing the civil wars that destroyed the line of Vol. As a way to promote Karrnathi nationalism at the outbreak of the Last War, Kaius I pronounced the Blood of Vol the official state religion of Karrnath. During the reign of Regent Moranna, the government began to dismantle the official status of the Blood of Vol. As the first major step, the Order of the Emerald Claw was outlawed and its members driven underground. After Kaius III came to the throne in his own right, he officially ended the relationship between the Blood of Vol and the government. The Blood of Vol is not persecuted - and still remains the majority faith of the citizenry - but Kaius III does what he can to protect the minority faith of the Sovereign Host. The place of the Church of the Silver Flame in Karrnath remains extremely tenuous, though even there Kaius III extends a tolerance unknown in the past century. |
| mhacdebhandia05-27-07, 07:52 PM | I wonder, though, what will become of him if/when he ever learns the truth. Hey, now. Who says that he's wrong? ;) |
| gensuke62605-27-07, 08:03 PM | :D Danke Tallric. I always figured that vol and her council would look at Abel and say something like "He's a lich...He's a Neutral Lich with good tendencies...What happened?" followed by Vol saying "Well...He will make a most useful puppet." As for Abel discovering the truth...he'd have to have the truth rammed down his throat pretty hard...I've actually designed his psyche in a way that if you simply tell him the truth he says "That's a vicious lie. I mean, Vol is already a Goddess, and if she wanted to rule the world she'd have done it by now. Someone's been listening to Silver Flame propaganda..." If he ever discovered and accepted the truths of what Vol is doing...I think new religion would be the way to go. Something like "The Church of Inner Divinity"...sort of a subsect of the Blood of Vol that adheres very strongly to the concept of the Inner Divine. In that Scenario, Abel would probably seek an audience with King Kaius and see if he can't get the king to approve of that relgion and help spread the truth about the Blood, thereby undermining the Blood's commoner support... Oh Jeeze, Abel would start the Protestant branch of the Blood of Vol...:eek: |
| tallric_kruush05-27-07, 08:06 PM | I had another thought about Abel. Clearly, since he intends to one day become a lich, Abel is of the "undead champion" line of thought that we've discussed here in this thread. Since he's a NG Cleric, he'd typically Turn/Destroy Undead. I'm guessing there's going to be an exception made so that he can Rebuke Undead instead? That, in turn, leads to another tricky situation. He won't be healing the needy, his comrades (unless they're undead :eek:), etc... as the typical good-aligned Cleric does. If he's channeling negative energy, he'll be inflicting instead of healing. A good-aligned Cleric channeling negative energy... That's gotta be unusual. Even in Eberron, that's gotta be unusual... He'd present a real conundrum for Aramil Dolorenthi, a Deathguard character I once played. |
| gensuke62605-27-07, 08:21 PM | I had another thought about Abel. Clearly, since he intends to one day become a lich, Abel is of the "undead champion" line of thought that we've discussed here in this thread. Since he's a NG Cleric, he'd typically Turn/Destroy Undead. I'm guessing there's going to be an exception made so that he can Rebuke Undead instead? Yeah. Actually, as part of Abel's backstory, he grew up in a small farming village about 2-3 days North East of Brom. They had somehow gotten lucky and a pair of Karranathi Skeletons were left to protect the village after the majority of the young men left to fight the war. Abel was afraid of the skeletons at first, but got used to them. One day the village is raided by bandits and the Skeletons manage to fight off the bandits, one of the two actually being destoryed as he protected Abel's home. Abel witnesses this and from that day afterward he keeps the surviving skeleton company when he's not needed to work. He convinces the local priest to give the skeleton a proper funeral and starts to learn divine magic from the priest...and thus he begins the road to being a cleric. If I ever get to play him, I am planning on talking to my DM about letting me rebuke instead of turn, and I'm also going to channel inflicts instead of cures (He was taught to 'Cure' the undead, afterall) because, I think I read some where that you either Turn and Spontaneously Cure, or you Rebuke and Spontaneously Inflict...I'll just have to prep my cure spells...less flexibility but a PC Cleric, but wonderfully fluffy IMHO. The mechanics are not as important to me as the moment in game when it's going to be: "Oh Man! Resse Died! Abel! Can you do anything?" "I used my last diamond bringing you back to life...But...I still have some black diamonds..." "Abel, you're not going to..." "I don't want to! But it's either this, or we let our friend's soul slip into Dolurrh! I'd want you to do the same for me!" |
| gensuke62605-27-07, 08:26 PM | The other element of the Blood of Vol which was changed from Keith's original design, of course, is that it was originally the majority faith in Karrnath. I'm not clear on the details of how Keith uses it these days, but my interpretation is pretty straightforward: The Blood of Vol has historically been the most common faith in Karrnath, due in large part to the influence of elven refugees from Aerenal fleeing the civil wars that destroyed the line of Vol. As a way to promote Karrnathi nationalism at the outbreak of the Last War, Kaius I pronounced the Blood of Vol the official state religion of Karrnath. During the reign of Regent Moranna, the government began to dismantle the official status of the Blood of Vol. As the first major step, the Order of the Emerald Claw was outlawed and its members driven underground. After Kaius III came to the throne in his own right, he officially ended the relationship between the Blood of Vol and the government. The Blood of Vol is not persecuted - and still remains the majority faith of the citizenry - but Kaius III does what he can to protect the minority faith of the Sovereign Host. The place of the Church of the Silver Flame in Karrnath remains extremely tenuous, though even there Kaius III extends a tolerance unknown in the past century. Thanks for the info. I'll put this in my little store of Vol notes...:D Hmm...If I remember correctly, the Blood is still the dominant religion in Karrnath...just not specifically endorsed by the crown anymore. |
| tallric_kruush05-27-07, 08:33 PM | The mechanics are not as important to me as the moment in game when it's going to be: "Oh Man! Resse Died! Abel! Can you do anything?" "I used my last diamond bringing you back to life...But...I still have some black diamonds..." "Abel, you're not going to..." "I don't want to! But it's either this, or we let our friend's soul slip into Dolurrh! I'd want you to do the same for me!" Oh man, I'm liking this guy better by the minute. A true believer.:clap: |
| gensuke62605-27-07, 08:49 PM | *blushes and takes a bow* I do what I can... Oddly this character started out as a joke... I was talking to some friends about a game of Eberron we're planning on starting soon andas a joke I said "If you kill of this first character, I'm going to come back as a Cleric who's first action will be to knock on this guy's door and say 'Have you accepted the Blood of Vol into your life?'" |
| tallric_kruush05-27-07, 08:53 PM | ...as a joke I said "If you kill of this first character, I'm going to come back as a Cleric who's first action will be to knock on this guy's door and say 'Have you accepted the Blood of Vol into your life?'" :rofl: |
| gensuke62605-27-07, 08:57 PM | I think that's what everyone else did that night too...after that we started joking about Abel going into Flamekeep and setting up a small table with books and informational pamphlets describing the Blood of Vol with a big sign on the front of the table saying "FREE STRESS TEST!" |
| Wizardman05-27-07, 08:57 PM | I was talking to some friends about a game of Eberron we're planning on starting soon andas a joke I said "If you kill of this first character, I'm going to come back as a Cleric who's first action will be to knock on this guy's door and say 'Have you accepted the Blood of Vol into your life?'" What will you do when this guy gets bumped off too? ;) |
| gensuke62605-27-07, 09:06 PM | See...here's the thing about me...I always have a Character, a backup, and about 2 or 3 back concepts. It's not that I expect to die alot in games, but I just keep coming up with characters that I'd like to play...so after Abel, I think I was going to write up a Changeling Rogue, a passer who keeps getting pulled into adventures by his two friends, 2 other changelings, a Becomer and a Reality Seeker. (The other 2 changelings are already being played by 2 of my friends...) I've also got a Shifter Hrazhak player, and a Human Artificier on the backburners... |
| tallric_kruush05-27-07, 09:15 PM | See...here's the thing about me...I always have a Character, a backup, and about 2 or 3 back concepts. It's not that I expect to die alot in games, but I just keep coming up with characters that I'd like to play...so after Abel, I think I was going to write up a Changeling Rogue, a passer who keeps getting pulled into adventures by his two friends, 2 other changelings, a Becomer and a Reality Seeker. (The other 2 changelings are already being played by 2 of my friends...) I've also got a Shifter Hrazhak player, and a Human Artificier on the backburners... Not to derail the thread (though I think we few are the thread), but that sounds a lot like me. I always have a few characters I just can't wait to try out. Most of them never see the light of day. I've considered writing short-stories so that they get to see adventures of some form. Short-stories would distract me from creating even more characters, though. My characters tend to have five-plus page backstories. I invest some thought into each one, and enjoy the creation process as much as the game, in truth. |
| gensuke62605-27-07, 09:18 PM | Yeah. That sounds familiar. I've had so many characters for so many systems, I can't remember them all...Some days I feel like characters just spring forth from my head like Roman Deities...:rolleyes: I've considered writing too...but I'm not so great with prose and dialogue...or spellinh...so I tend to leave that area alone... |
| tallric_kruush05-27-07, 09:21 PM | ...I'm not so great with ... spellinh... So I see.;) I try to hold onto most of my write-ups, but there are just so many. I'm not sure how many I have at this point. I'm actually been working on one as I've posted the last couple of hours. |
| gensuke62605-27-07, 10:04 PM | Ahh...Yeah..I was working on one...then I got distracted by the Goblins Comic...so...yeah...and That's why I haven't posted anything for...40 minutes! |
| mhacdebhandia05-27-07, 10:11 PM | Hmm...If I remember correctly, the Blood is still the dominant religion in Karrnath...just not specifically endorsed by the crown anymore. Nope, that's Keith's personal version. Officially, according to the Eberron Campaign Setting, the Blood of Vol is a not-insignificant minority in Karrnath, with smaller cults scattered across the world, nothing more. |
| gensuke62605-27-07, 10:15 PM | I see... ... ... Keith's Version will live on in MY games of Eberron! :D |
| tallric_kruush05-27-07, 10:20 PM | Nope, that's Keith's personal version. Officially, according to the Eberron Campaign Setting, the Blood of Vol is a not-insignificant minority in Karrnath, with smaller cults scattered across the world, nothing more. To reiterate everything you've said in this thread, I offer the following: ECS (p.181) says the following: "The Sovereign Host holds sway over the majority of the nation...the Silver Flame has only a token presence...A small but not insignificant part of the population still follows the teachings of the Blood of Vol..." I imagine before the government's break with the cult, the percentage of devotees would've been much higher. |
| gensuke62605-27-07, 10:22 PM | Accursed Sovreign Host and their borning as stone Dolurrh and their "You're god is just my god...You don't understand it properly" mentality...:mad: but ok...I'll keep that in mind...I think I like Vol still holding sway...so...yes. Thanks for the info guys! |
| NHBDY05-27-07, 11:32 PM | Good job on the cleric, very funny dialouge, i have had so many character ideas, my most outragous one was an Elan Psion barbarian named larry, what was your most outragous charater idea? |
| Hellcow05-28-07, 03:18 PM | I've posted about this before, but what the heck. My original take on the Blood of Vol (well, with a few edits) can be found on page 95 of Sharn: City of Towers, in which it is presented as a variant sect of the faith. Faiths of Eberron comes closer than many other books, but there are a few crucial differences. To sum up my view of the faith: The Blood of Vol is founded on the premise that gods exist. However, it takes the question "What just god would allow suffering" and concludes "None" - that if gods exist and suffering exists, the gods must be responsible for the suffering. As flies to wanton boys are we to the gods - they kill us for their sport. The second piece of this is the idea that divinity lies within blood. Essentially, we all have the potential to be gods. The problem is that this takes time. Which is why the gods afflicted us with disease and mortality - so that we will die before we can rise to their level. It's not unlike the Garden of Eden and the Tree of Eternal Life. Following the FoE approach, those who seek the divinity within can approach this greater power. But in my vision, they can't ever reach it. You simply don't have enough time in this life to attain true divinity; the hostile gods will always stop you. Which means that the ultimate goal of the BoV is to find a way to destroy the gods - to defeat death itself. How do you go about doing this when no one has ever seen a god? Good question. Perhaps you have to take away their worshippers. Perhaps you have to build up enough power that you can reach some higher realm beyond the known planes. Either way, it's something that's difficult to do in a mortal lifespan... and that's where the undead come in. The undead escape the curse, and by living many lifespans, they have the potential to gain knowledge and power, to advise the living, and to be their champions in the battle that is to come. At the same time, they are martyrs. Because the ultimate divinity lies in the blood, and they no longer have it. Even if the cruel gods are defeated and the new age brought to the world, they have thrown away their ultimate potential to serve in this great battle. So the typical worshipper doesn't want to be undead; he wants to be immortal. Why the BoV is commonly seen as "worshipping undead" is because they are devoted to their undead champions. The peasant farmer knows HE has no hope of fighting the gods - but he believes that the vampire knight may one day save us all from death. What the farmer CAN do is give his blood to the vampire, and this he does willingly. When it comes to mindless undead, the BoV simply has no qualms about using them. They believe that once you're dead, your soul is destroyed by those cruel gods. There's nothing special about the body left behind, and if your body can serve your community, great. The warrior sworn to the BoV fights the gods in life with his faith, and when he dies, he wants his bones to rise up and continue the battle. I never intended the Blood of Vol to be a "EEEEVIL" faith. They creep people out because of their association with undead, blood rituals, and the like. But in their eyes, they are heroes. If they are successful, they will bring an end to death for all living things. The followers of the Sovereign Host are worse then fools - they are empowering the very gods who have brought death to the world. They must be stopped - it's too bad, but it's for the good of all. So ultimately, the BoV is a religion based on positive principles: saving the entire world from death. This ties to the fact that I think very few people WANT to be evil. My view of good and yours may be very different. But the BoV peasant firmly believes that in giving his blood to the vampire, he is saving the world. The flip side of this is the Order of the Emerald Claw. They HAVE always been the EEEVIL side of things. They're the extremists who tarnish the name of their entire faith in the eyes of the world, just like so many religious extremists in our world. Likewise, the Emerald Claw is supposed to be directly interested in doing whatever Erandis wants, not whatever the faith dictates. And at the end of the day, ERANDIS isn't interested in saving the world from death. She's using this faith to manipulate the masses - but her goals are as selfish as the most corrupt priest of the Silver Flame. Again, the key to Eberron is that corruption can be found in ANY church - the evil ones as well as the good ones. So the EC has always been intended as purely evil pulp villains - but the BoV is a faith that can appeal to tens of thousands of perfectly decent people. A final thing I'll say is that the Blood of Vol also seemed to me to be an archtypically Karrnathi faith. The gods hate you and want to destroy you. Death is the end - there's no happy after life waiting for you, just the utter destruction of your soul. All you have is your friends and your family, and the fight to make this life worthwhile. You will support the champions and fight the cruel gods, and when they kill you, you will rise from the grave and continue the battle until they grind your bones to dust. And some day your people will defeat the gods themselves. So that's my take on the Blood of Vol. In my opinion, community is very important to the faith; we have to stand together, because the universe itself is against us. Rather than being atheistic or selfish, it's actually a sort of grim altruism; if they succeed in their struggle, they'll save even the unworthy fools who worship the Sovereigns. My intent was also to create irreconcilable differences between the three major faiths - faiths which in and of themselves could all be positive forces. The Silver Flame hates the Blood of Vol for its use of undead and negative energy. The Blood of Vol doesn't care about the Silver Flame, but hates the Sovereigns as the source of suffering, and is forced to oppose the followers of the Host. And the SH doesn't much care about either of the others, but that doesn't solve its troubles with the BoV. Anyhow, there you have it. I'm fine with all the various forms the BoV has taken, but personally I like the struggle against the cruel gods. |
| Hellcow05-28-07, 03:22 PM | Key point: My version of the BoV in no way assumes that the gods DO exist - simply that the BoV believes that they do. Thus, the quest to defeat death may be an impossible dream. But the key to religion is faith, and they believe this battle can be won. |
| mhacdebhandia05-28-07, 06:29 PM | And that's the version I use. Thanks for posting, Keith! |
| tallric_kruush05-28-07, 09:02 PM | Thanks, Keith. That's the understanding I'd gotten from ECS and S:CoT--in particular from the section about the Graywall neighborhood! Now that you've knocked the cobwebs loose, so to speak, it all comes back to me. Now I remember why I was so reluctant to pick-up FoE. The BoV section was previewed on the Eberron homepage and it kind of left me scratching my head. They did nice work, and all, but it was very different from what had already been established in ECS and SCoT. |
| gensuke62605-29-07, 05:54 AM | I love you Keith. But seriously...that's a much different picture of the Blood of Vol than what I've had in my mind...Well...it has some similarities, but for the most part the struggle against cruel gods never really entered into it for me. Thanks for the wonderful input. Hmm...That could make Abel even more compelling to play if I used that information properly.... |
| mhacdebhandia05-29-07, 08:30 AM | Now I remember why I was so reluctant to pick-up FoE. The BoV section was previewed on the Eberron homepage and it kind of left me scratching my head. They did nice work, and all, but it was very different from what had already been established in ECS and SCoT. I don't find it difficult to mentally reconcile "bah, there are no gods" with "the gods must be horrible to curse us with death" - at the most, you could blend them into "if there are any gods, which is by no means certain, they'd be horrible monsters to have cursed us with death". |
| gensuke62605-30-07, 07:52 PM | Or the far more popular "The god's can't exist...if they did I'd have more money, power, and all the pie I can eat!" ;) |
| gensuke62606-01-07, 09:56 PM | Hmm...Well...Since I had my question answered, I suppose that would be all...but I'd hate to see this thread go to waste... Say, what do you guys think a Blood of Vol Wedding ceremony would be like? Just as a skeleton of an idea, I kinda see the couple doing some sort of mutual blood exchange...maybe pricking the tips of their ring fingers and pressing them together. This overseen by a Cleric of Vol or (if you're rich/powerful/lucky) by an intelligent undead like a Vampire, Mummy, or Lich. I couldn't resist asking...I watched Corpse bride with my friends last night and I just kept thinking about Abel raising a bunch of skeletons while singing to himself "A wedding, A wedding! There's going to be a Wedding!" |
| Darakhoranon06-03-07, 01:43 PM | And why would Abel RAISE the skeletons in the first place? He still hasnīt got the organ from Zilargo he ordered last year! Seriously, though, the "until death..."-part of a (catholic) wedding would probably fit with the BoV. An exchange of blood between the happy couple also seems logical - from now on, youīre trying to find your inner divinity together. |
| bbthereaper06-03-07, 02:34 PM | Alright. So the Blood isn't undead-worship...then what's with the domains? I mean, it sure doesn't sound evil, but it's got Evil, and if they don't actually worship undead, just use them, why the Necromancer domain? There's one domain, perhaps two that seem lacking but would make sense, and that's Life and maybe Healing. If the Blood's all about beating death, then I would think they would want spells and abilities that are designed to keep people alive as long as possible. |
| mhacdebhandia06-03-07, 09:17 PM | The domains make sense for those clerics who belong to the secret "inner circle" serving Vol herself. |
| Darakhoranon06-06-07, 05:56 AM | True. And as far as I know, at least MOST of the more powerful clerics (aka adventurers and such) tend to be/become part of said "inner circle" - which would mean that the PC cleric would at least be inclined to go the "undead champion" way. Unless of course, said cleric is build to "redeem" the (hidden) evil of the BoV, in which case more "positive" domains might be better - but then, even a good follower of the BoV does NOT see all undead as abominations, so powers to control/create/help them arenīt really that far off... |
| gensuke62606-06-07, 10:37 PM | So, what could be some possible domains for "Mainstream Seekers"? I think Necromancer still fits, since unintelligent Undead are simply tools, and Intelligent Undead are seen as Champions of the faith. Death may fit, but I think maybe we should say something like... Blood of Vol, Inner Circle: Necromancer, Death, Law, Evil, and whatever they got new in the Faiths of Eberron supplement Blood of Vol, Layman: Necromancer, Good, Protection, Healing, Community. In both cases, Clerics of Vol channel Negative Energy as they are taught to Bolster and aid the Undead Champions, first and foremost. Since the commoner's view of Vol is much more open and friendly than the inner circle's true nature could ever allow, I think the domains I listed there would work for a more community based religion, like the face of the faith seems to reflect. |
| mhacdebhandia06-07-07, 12:47 AM | I wouldn't give the "outer" Blood of Vol the Good or Healing domains. My choices would run to Community, Death, Law, and Repose. |
| Soltares06-07-07, 09:48 AM | Either way, it's something that's difficult to do in a mortal lifespan... and that's where the undead come in. The undead escape the curse, and by living many lifespans, they have the potential to gain knowledge and power, to advise the living, and to be their champions in the battle that is to come. At the same time, they are martyrs. Because the ultimate divinity lies in the blood, and they no longer have it. Even if the cruel gods are defeated and the new age brought to the world, they have thrown away their ultimate potential to serve in this great battle. So the typical worshipper doesn't want to be undead; he wants to be immortal. This totally confirms the OPs thoughts about the Blood of Vol being very Buddhist in flavor. The undead are effectively throwing away their chance at Nirvana to stay in the world and guide the rest of mankind to enlightenment. Very cool. It almost seems like the Blood of Vol is two religions, an outer faith, which should be differently aligned and with different Domains, and an inner circle for Erandis' evil cronies. |
| gensuke62606-08-07, 09:05 PM | I wouldn't give the "outer" Blood of Vol the Good or Healing domains. My choices would run to Community, Death, Law, and Repose. Hmm...Where does the Repose domain come from? That'd be one I really ought to look up. And actually reading Hellcow's posts from the Silver Flame Thread, I'm starting to wonder what divine forces the Blood of Vol actually calls upon. To quote Keith... divinity lies within blood. Essentially, we all have the potential to be gods. The problem is that this takes time. Which is why the gods afflicted us with disease and mortality - so that we will die before we can rise to their level. So, if the Seekers are calling upon the divine power inherent within their own blood, then I see two options existing: 1. The divinity called upon is personal divinity, and thus the axiomatic domains granted would be based upon the cleric's personal alignment. 2. The divinity called upon is more of a community divinity generated by the seekers as a whole, so the axiomatic domains generated would depend highly on the alignments of all of the followers. So Law (as most are likely to be lawful) but not Good or Evil (as this is the face of the blood of Vol, and not the same belief system that the inner circles would follow, and the majority of people are most likely neutral.) As for the Non-axiomatic domains that could be called upon; Community, because the core belief is based around creating a better world for everyone. Death, mostly because the create undead line is included with the domain spells granted. I can't for the life of me remember what spells the necromancer domain grants and I don't have any way of getting my book, so I can't make a strong arguement for it, other than if I recall correctly, it adds +1 caster level for necromancy spells. I still think Protection should be included, if only because I feel that the faith is trying to protect it's followers from death. I can't make a good case for healing, and after considering it a Cleric's basic healing ability is probably enough to keep a village going for quite some time. As for any other domains, I can't make good cases for them, mostly because I only have the PHB on me at the moment, and other than the one's I've gone over, I can't see any of them fitting. |
| Hellcow06-08-07, 09:34 PM | And actually reading Hellcow's posts from the Silver Flame Thread, I'm starting to wonder what divine forces the Blood of Vol actually calls upon. To quote Keith, "divinity lies within blood. Essentially, we all have the potential to be gods." Though just to take the side of the Traveler, I never said that this was TRUE - I said that it was what they BELIEVED. By the RAW, a priest of the BoV - whatever his beliefs and motivations - gains an Evil alignment aura and a bias for negative energy. I don't have time to discuss this in great detail, but a critical point here is that people in Eberron tend to define "evil" by action, not alignment. The people of Karrnath don't care if Kaius is technically "evil", because they actually EXPECT their rulers to be hard and ruthless people - which usually comes out as evil. So the fact that BoV priests ping as "evil" isn't going to panic followers of the faith. So what is the power? It could be an ancient force first tapped by the Qabalrin, who laid the groundwork for the BoV; it's nothing like what people think it is. It could be that community-generated divinity you describe; if so, the evil aura might reflect the typically grim, harsh outlook of the Lhazaar Principalities and Karrnath, where the faith is most widespread. Or it may be that the beliefs of the Seekers are 100% accurate, and that in seeking to reach the divinity within you are defying the Sovereigns, which casts you as evil because you're evil in THEIR eyes - essentially, it's a warning to THEIR worshippers. Anyhow, it's an interesting discussion and I don't have any time to get involved in more detail. Certainly if people want to generate multiple forms of the BoV, it makes more sense than religions based on worshipping shoes! |
| mhacdebhandia06-08-07, 09:50 PM | Hmm...Where does the Repose domain come from? That'd be one I really ought to look up. To the best of my recollection, it originally appeared in Deities and Demigods. It's part of the SRD, anyway: Here. (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/clericDomains.html#repose) |
| gensuke62606-08-07, 10:46 PM | Thanks for the info mhacdebhandia. Hmm...I forgot about the SRD. I'll have to run through the domains to see what else might fit. Also, thanks for the input Hellcow. I understand that what the Seekers claim may not actually be true, but as a player of Mage: The Ascention, I'm one to take the following oppinion: Magic and Psionics are simply universal energy, shaped by the wills of those who weild them. The Psioniscist believes that he is tapping into the powers of his own mind, and he is correct, in that he uses his toughts and beliefs to channel energy. The Arcane caster believes he is shaping ambient energy around him by performing spells. And he is correct, as he uses spells and incantations to channel energy. The Divine caster believes that his faith in his God grants him power. And he is right. His faith in his god is what allows him to channel energy. Whether or not his god exists is up in the air, however. In most D&D settings this is further translated into "If Man created the Gods or the Gods Created Men, that is the unwinable debate" Anyhow, so...mhacdebhandia. Want to take up Hellcow's blessing and come up with alternate views on the Blood of Vol's power source and what it could ultimately mean? I kinda like the idea that the Seekers are branded evil simply because they oppose the Sovreigns... |
| mhacdebhandia06-08-07, 11:07 PM | I think it's like the Path of Light, actually, in that there's something of a disconnect between the people (in this case, perhaps mostly lawful neutral) and the source (lawful evil). The tenets of the Seeker faith simply tend towards order - the strong focus on community, for instance - and evil - due to the antagonistic stance the Seekers take towards the world. You could argue that the Vassals and the Purified touch a source of divine energy that is truly innately good, no matter how deceptive the Seekers believe it to be, and that setting themselves against those gods, denying the fact of their goodness, is an ultimately and genuinely evil course. Combine that with the reverence and tribute the Seekers offer towards the Mabar-empowered undead they see as champions against the "natural order" which condemns mortal creatures to death. Mabar may not be evil, but it is negative-aligned, and that's a destructive, entropic force in the universe - and Seekers strengthen, with their blood and reverence, the undead who are literally empowered by that entropic force. Consider that the earliest roots of the Blood of Vol are found among the Qabalrin elves of Xen'drik, whose whole philosophy is believed by some to have been inspired by the Shadow - drawn to the land by the giants' having learned the arts of magic from Ouralon, Bringer of Light and Law - and which from the start was a terrible path to dark power involving blood and sacrifice. In fact, you could say that no matter the heroic, death-conquering ambitions of modern Seekers, the roots of their emphasis on the power of blood lies in the sacrifices of the Qabalrin - a philosophy forever tainted by its origins in cruel practices. It's sacrifice taken too far, or required for the wrong reasons - while Vassals might contemplate a noble sacrifice to protect others, Seekers see giving of yourself - for the community, for the champions, for one's own power - as necessary in everything. Your small community of the faithful in rural Karrnath believes it's a necessary sacrifice so that everyone can endure the harshness of life in a world cursed by the gods . . . but perhaps, ultimately, it's letting more pain and death touch the world than is truly necessary. Who knows? Just some ideas. |
| gensuke62606-08-07, 11:11 PM | Some delicious food for thought...I don't have the mental energies to formulate a proper rebuttal to that at the moment, but I like the ideas of where that's going... |
| mhacdebhandia06-08-07, 11:19 PM | Here's an example, you know: the local priest, part of the outer religion and so ignorant of the schemes of Vol herself, but who is nevertheless Lawful Evil because he pushes his congregation to give too much of themselves for the good of the community as a whole. Perhaps he asks for more blood than is ritually necessary, so that the congregant can truly prove his faith and strengthen the community with his sacrifice. Perhaps he encourages the Seekers in his community to exclude those not of the faith, to shut them out of communal life - shunning them, refusing to trade with them, all in the name of making the Seekers as a whole stronger by excluding "foreign impurities" from the community. Pity the congregant who comes to doubt in this community, because the local priest will turn his family and friends against him. The Blood of Vol is not a compassionate religion, it requires commitment and self-sacrifice from the one in the name of strengthening the many. If you doubt, if you feel weak, it's better to give more of yourself to the community than to risk weakening it by asking the many to deal with the problems of just one. Think of the most insular and exclusive religious (or political, or even geographical) communities you've ever known - "You ain't from around here, are you?" "You're not one of us." "You don't belong here." Even if it does make for a stronger community, even if the people within it do help each other get through hard times and survive in a world they believe to have been cursed by its Sovereigns, there's always that possibility that maybe the pressures being applied to the individual to conform for the good of the community are creating weak links in the chain. I also imagine that Seeker congregations as being pretty authoritarian - just as the priest must obey the religious dictates of their superiors, so too must the congregation do as the priest asks without question. Going against the priests "advice" even in other areas of your life would probably be interpreted as a sign that you're falling prey to influences outside of the faith - you're not listening to the Divinity Within, or the wise counsel of your priest (whose own inner divinity is presumably stronger than your own) . . . I mean, Seekers try to understand themselves and unlock the power within, but their faith places that understanding and that power firmly in the context of the greater community, the collective "soul" of the faithful and of all life itself. If you're ignoring the counsel of your priest, who guides you with his wisdom as he is guided by the wisdom of those above you, are you not falling into error, blind to the Divinity Within? |
| gensuke62606-08-07, 11:39 PM | Now that I've had a bowlful of honey-roasted peanuts, I can respond a bit...errm...better... While I can see your train of thought, and I can definately see that scenario cropping up in a community, I don't think that would nessecarily be the reason a given priest is Lawful Evil, or atleast responds that way to a detect spell. Now, a priest who acts that way would be lawful evil, but I think the source of power would contribute much more than a character's actions. For example, Abel, the cleric I described a while ago, acts in ways that are clearly Good. He does what he can to help the community, never demanding that they sacrifice 'More than they can afford' but always encouraging those around him to 'give until it hurts' and leading by example. Yet he channels negative energy and taps into a source of power that is LE, therefore to a Detect spell, he'd ping as Lawful Evil. Now I'm not saying that Anyone is as misguided as poor Abel, and I see most seeker communities as somewhere between Abel and your example (Admittedly closer to your example than Abel, I'm thinking a good 25/75 blend in your favor). Personally, I see the Blood of Vol as a very compassionate religion that is just very pragmatic. While it's roots may be a bit corrupt, the current incarnation has a 'The Needs of the Many Outweigh the Needs of the Few.' mentality while it 'Liberates humanity from Death's curse.' Then again, maybe I'm just rambling and crazy.:confused: |
| mhacdebhandia06-09-07, 06:34 AM | What I was trying to suggest is a reason why even the outer religion might, overall, be a Lawful Evil faith. |
| gensuke62606-09-07, 07:45 PM | ... ... ... OH! Now I get it! :embarrass Yeah...Yeah, I can see that. Good lord my brain's been working on extra slow mode recently. --;; |