Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DragoonDarkfire 03-03-07, 07:50 PM	An article I wrote for applying Tome of Magic classes and the such to Eberron. ___________________ Binder and pact magic In Eberron even the gods are questioned as to whether or not they exist. There is no doubt that particularly skilled warriors have gained the favor of outsiders and channeled (or possessed) their bodies to overcome a task. It's no amazing feat then that some of these people have devoted their lives into drawing and channeling spirits into their bodies. Binders in Eberron are not as persecuted or hunted as badly as they are in other campaigns. While they obviously believe and ask for power from vestiges rather then deities, their pact magic is seen merely as an ancient and unusual form of Magic rather than a blasphemous or unholy act. While some druidic sects (like the Ashbound) and more zealous members of the Silver Flame believe their magic to be unnatural and an abomination, many binders are simply treated as any other Sorcerer or wizard are in Eberron. Vestiges in Eberron were once powerful outsiders and warriors (those who fought during the Age of Fiends or the Age of Giants and eventually died or were imprisoned for eternity) however due to unusual circumstance they managed to hang on to a small indirect form of existence. Perhaps they remains stuck in Dolurrh and refuse to pass on into another existence, perhapses they are trapped in the astral or ethereal plane, or perhaps they were simply unlucky enough to become trapped along with the Rakshasa Rajas into the depths of Khyber. Whatever the reason, Binders have called upon the power of these unusual spirits and channeled their powers into their bodies. Amongst the races of Khorvaire and beyond humans have shown the greatest number of Binders, many originating from the wilder areas of the Eldeen reaches where anything short of Druidic magic is near impossible to find. Strangely the Kalashtar have also begun training and creating pacts with outsiders in their fight against the Inspired. Perhaps this is because they have already given their bodies over to outsiders and seek to gain more power from this or it is simply using an Inspired method against them. Whatever the reason it has steadily been growing in Adar. Clerics/Paladins and Binders just as a Cleric can turn corrupt and take an evil alignment in Eberron, a Cleric can multi class as a binder without taking any penalties in the class. A paladin may also multiclass as a binder without losing her abilities as long as she does not preform an evil act or channel a particularly evil vestige (DM's discretion). Shadowcaster House Phiarla and House Thuranni have been competing ruthlessly with each other since the break up of the house. But long before the breakup (some suggest even before the last war) the house had been working on some way to perfect the manipulation of energy from the plane of shadow. Their dragonmarks already offered them extensive power over the power of shadows but they sought to increase that power. Eventually the house perfected the art of shadow magic (a rumor persists that a spy from the house made a bargain with a clan of Shadow dragons for knowledge of the magic) and the Shadowcaster was born. Though perfected by house Phiarla and kept secret by them for a good number of years, with the breakup of the house came a sudden unfolding of other Shadowcasters who had no connection with the house whatsoever. Some say that house Thuranni made a deal with some crime lords and wizards to give them access to the mastery of Shadowcaster in order to gain a foothold in the competition. If this rumor is true or not, whoever knows is keeping his mouth closed for good reason. Shadowcasters often work with assassin guilds, secret organizations and other espionage groups. Many still remain apart of the two Dragonmarked houses and even the Dreaming Dark has begun teaching some of it's assassins and members in the art of Shadowcasting. Truename Magic Istellivar is a remote island off the coast of Sarlona which has recently come into contact with the rest of the world. On the Island a group of humans, illumians (listed in the races of destiny book) and an assortment of elves, halflings and dwarves learned the mastery of true name magic and to most people on the island true name is almost a second language. Albeit one that is not used much for the impractical use of communication. According to legend, a group of Sarlonians landed on the island after the second flee from the continent (resulting in the humans coming to the Shadow Marches), their ship was lost and they ended up on the island. While there they built a small community, not one that studied magic in any form. A simple community. As more ships washed ashore on the island it was believed to be a sanctuary and a guard against the devourer by the people who came to the Island through mostly accident. This was until something new washed up on shore, a humongous red dragon. At first the people thought the dragon would come and devour their village but after some inspection they found the dragon to be unconscious and injured, but still breathing. After moving the dragon greater inland they eventually kept the beast safe from harm. After two months of the beast unconsciousness it finally woke up and discovered that a group of lesser races had saved it. The dragon seemed to light up when he realized where he was, after mentioning something about a prophecy he asked the smartest and wisest of men in the entire island to come to him so that he could talk to them. It was during this time that the dragon Thirrimestar taught the people of the island the mastery of Truename magic. The teaching was long and hard but Thirrimestar, who had lived for eons, was patient and adamant in teaching the folk how to unlock the mysteries of true names. Eventually a temple was constructed in the dragons honor and the teachings of truename magic became an art form to the people. Now that the island has been contacted by the continent of Khorvaire the people have begun teaching Truename magic to the other races of Khorvaire. While most academic and learning institutions think the language to be far too long and with far too many vocalizations for anything practical to be used by it there is no doubt that speaking Truename has mysterious and magical effects of the world around it. Those who practice Truename magic believe that these are the words of the Great Wyrms and that these are the names that Eberron, Siberys and Khyber gave to their creations when they were created. _______________________ might add some more crunch later.
Millenia 03-04-07, 01:23 AM	Ooooh. Pretty nice flavoring, though I personally think that binders should keep on being hunter like with the flavor... For instance, I can easily see biners being hunted by some of worshippers of the Sovereign Host, Dark Six, etc in that they think that vestiges are an affront to the gods, or because binders often misuse their power or claim that the vestiges are beyond the gods, or whatever. ^^;a I don't really see the distance of the gods being much of a problem to their persecution and whatnot. I also think that the flavor of some of the vestiges (Tenebrous, Amon) should be changed... such as Tenebrous being, say, one of the rakhasha rajahs, or whatever. Though, I must also say that I disagree with the paladins being able to multiclass to binder without losing the ability to continue as paladins. While they may not LOSE their powers, I do think that that particular rule (no multiclassing) should be the same regardless of class... though I houserule it out in my campaigns anyways. XD
AvonRekaes 03-04-07, 01:41 AM	I like the flavor you presented for the Binder and Shadowcaster, but I think the Truename stuff about some island is a bit too much of an addition. Although I do like the idea that Truespeak is the words of the Progenitor Dragons. In fact, when I first got the Tome of Magic, I toyed with the idea of giving true dragons inherent Truenamer levels rather than inherent Sorcerer levels. (Instead I made Truespeak a class skill for all true dragons, so they could use the truespeach spells easily.) Overall, nice job. I'd love to hear some of your thoughts about specific Vestiges and how to Eberron-ize them.
Romulus LoneWolf 03-04-07, 09:56 AM	I, personally, would consider using Shadowcasters to represent followers of The Shadow.
DragoonDarkfire 03-04-07, 09:59 AM	I, personally, would consider using Shadowcasters to represent followers of The Shadow. The shadow represents all dark and evil aspects of magic. The ShadowCASTER is simply one who manipulates the power of the plane of shadow.
DragoonDarkfire 03-04-07, 10:38 AM	Ooooh. Pretty nice flavoring, though I personally think that binders should keep on being hunter like with the flavor... For instance, I can easily see biners being hunted by some of worshippers of the Sovereign Host, Dark Six, etc in that they think that vestiges are an affront to the gods, or because binders often misuse their power or claim that the vestiges are beyond the gods, or whatever. ^^;a I don't really see the distance of the gods being much of a problem to their persecution and whatnot. I also think that the flavor of some of the vestiges (Tenebrous, Amon) should be changed... such as Tenebrous being, say, one of the rakhasha rajahs, or whatever. Though, I must also say that I disagree with the paladins being able to multiclass to binder without losing the ability to continue as paladins. While they may not LOSE their powers, I do think that that particular rule (no multiclassing) should be the same regardless of class... though I houserule it out in my campaigns anyways. XD Personally I saw corruption within the church being a more pressing issue then with a few heretics. I mean if a priest of Dol Arrah were to discover a cleric within his order secretly aiding a guild of assassins and paying them to "take care of" higher ups so that he could gain a better position in the church I believe that he'd gladly ask for help from a binder if one were to offer help. It's a bit hypocritical for a cleric to go about killing heretics when there are priests within his own order who adopt evil alignments and can still retain their power. And here's some way to put Vestiges in Eberron. Acererak: This demilich lived during the age of giants. Acereak was in fact an Elf who lived in the depths of Khyber and learned necromancy to such a great extent he eventually sought to permanently bind Marabar to Eberron so that his power would grow to immortality. He was destroyed by the Titans who ruled Xen'drik at the time and he now lives as a vestige. Amon: Amon was one of the undying councils most prestiges members. When he eventually joined the force he gave advice and compassion to all who needed it. This was until the dragon/elf wars when his spirit was cast into the astral plane by dragon magic. Now he lives as a vestige and carried a great deal of malice with him for being cast out. However, he also despises the powers of fire and sun since he is near positive that the dragon who banished him was a red dragon. Andras: was an elf hero of Xen'drik who was forced to fight for both the causes of the Elves and the Giants. During a decisive part of the rebellion, he simply left. No one knows why or how he became a vestige but he is still used by the Valnear elves as a guide and vestige to grant power to these noble elf warriors. Andromalius: simply replace Ollidimara with the Traveler. How or why he became a vestige is unknown. Tenebrous: was once a lord of dust who eventually ascended to becoming a Rakshasa Raja, after being slain by a mighty Coutal warrior he was resurrected back as a mere demon he formally was.
ArcTan 03-04-07, 08:33 PM	The shadow represents all dark and evil aspects of magic. The ShadowCASTER is simply one who manipulates the power of the plane of shadow. That's a matter of opinion, though. (Yeah, the canon Shadow is CE, bla bla bla.) There could be worshippers of the Shadow who see the oppression of the Shadow's followers as elitism or prejudice -- remember that most monstrous races think of themselves as the "Shadow's Children". The Shadow represents those parts of the natural order that have been *deemed* unnatural or evil or wrong because they don't fit into the preconceived notions of order that the followers of Aureon have. That doesn't mean the things supposedly taught by the Shadow really are evil -- just that they're seen as such. Just as shadowcasters themselves aren't required to be Evil, but the flavor says they're often seen as such. FWIW, there are multiple "shadowy" sources of magic in Eberron. Worshippers of the Shadow as part of the Dark Six I would say tend toward Evil, but if you don't like your Good or Neutral Shadowcaster being a worshipper of the Shadow, I see the Umbragen and the Phiarlan/Thuranni Houses as less sinister sources of shadow magic.
DragoonDarkfire 03-04-07, 08:39 PM	That's a matter of opinion, though. (Yeah, the canon Shadow is CE, bla bla bla.) There could be worshippers of the Shadow who see the oppression of the Shadow's followers as elitism or prejudice -- remember that most monstrous races think of themselves as the "Shadow's Children". The Shadow represents those parts of the natural order that have been *deemed* unnatural or evil or wrong because they don't fit into the preconceived notions of order that the followers of Aureon have. That doesn't mean the things supposedly taught by the Shadow really are evil -- just that they're seen as such. Just as shadowcasters themselves aren't required to be Evil, but the flavor says they're often seen as such. FWIW, there are multiple "shadowy" sources of magic in Eberron. Worshippers of the Shadow as part of the Dark Six I would say tend toward Evil, but if you don't like your Good or Neutral Shadowcaster being a worshipper of the Shadow, I see the Umbragen and the Phiarlan/Thuranni Houses as less sinister sources of shadow magic. Well let's look at it like this. How many non divine spell casters are there that are tied to Deities? Is the shadow caster a divine spell caster?
yrogerg 03-04-07, 09:55 PM	Amon: Amon was one of the undying councils most prestiges members. When he eventually joined the force he gave advice and compassion to all who needed it. This was until the dragon/elf wars when his spirit was cast into the astral plane by dragon magic. Now he lives as a vestige and carried a great deal of malice with him for being cast out. However, he also despises the powers of fire and sun since he is near positive that the dragon who banished him was a red dragon. Personally, I'm a huge fan of keeping the "forgotten god" flavor, and just making him the lost Goblinoid god that we know nothing else about. Despite the fact that Eberron's gods don't interact directly with the world, this shouldn't be a problem for the reason below: It's a bit hypocritical for a cleric to go about killing heretics when there are priests within his own order who adopt evil alignments and can still retain their power. Regarding the issue of heresy, I actually think there's a pretty coherent reason why members of some mainstream faiths (most notably, the Silver Flame, with its mandate to fight against Supernatural Evil) would feel the need to hunt down Binders: the source of their powers. At very least, many of the vestiges presented in ToM tend to be at least somewhat nasty: reflavored for Eberron, they would still include powerful evil undead, cursed humans, those touched by the rajas and the daelkyr, and so on. And that's at the very least: I can't imagine that it wouldn't give members of the Host pause when they hear a binder describing Amon, a "forgotten god" that communicates directly with him, and makes him irritable and fire-breathing: wouldn't members of many religions consider -at least somewhere in the back of their minds- the possibility that these powers might be coming from somewhere... else? Again, particularly for the Silver Flame, the possibility that these people were drawing their powers from a Raja like Sul Khatesh would be seen as a far far graver threat than the personal failings of some of the faithful.
yrogerg 03-04-07, 10:02 PM	Well let's look at it like this. How many non divine spell casters are there that are tied to Deities? Is the shadow caster a divine spell caster? You have the causation reversed: in settings that aren't Dragonlance or FR, non-divine spellcasters don't *derive* their powers from the gods, but that doesn't mean that they don't tend to identify and worship gods who represent the ideals that they value. Spellcasters that prefer "darker" magic wouldn't necessarily *draw* their power from The Shadow, but they could easily identify with and revere The Shadow, and this reverence and devotion could color their magic, even though they're non-divine casters.
ArcTan 03-04-07, 10:31 PM	Well let's look at it like this. How many non divine spell casters are there that are tied to Deities? Is the shadow caster a divine spell caster? The majority of ordinary arcane spellcasters in Khorvaire show at least token allegiance to Aureon, who is said to have written the laws of magic. This is no different from the situation in other campaign settings with Boccob, Wee Jas, Mystra, and other deities of magic. Just as in Greyhawk a standard-issue Wizard might worship Boccob but a Wizard who was drawn to darker pursuits like necromancy might instead worship Wee Jas -- and a truly Evil spellcaster might be drawn to the worshp of Vecna -- so there's probably a tradition in Eberron that the true Laws of Magic were written by Aureon, while the twisted, lawless and secret ways of Shadow Magic consists of the portion of magic hidden away by the Shadow when he separated from Aureon. (Note that this very closely parallels Forgotten Realms' story of Mystra and the Weave, and Shar and the Shadow Weave.)
DragoonDarkfire 03-04-07, 10:55 PM	The majority of ordinary arcane spellcasters in Khorvaire show at least token allegiance to Aureon, who is said to have written the laws of magic. This is no different from the situation in other campaign settings with Boccob, Wee Jas, Mystra, and other deities of magic. Just as in Greyhawk a standard-issue Wizard might worship Boccob but a Wizard who was drawn to darker pursuits like necromancy might instead worship Wee Jas -- and a truly Evil spellcaster might be drawn to the worshp of Vecna -- so there's probably a tradition in Eberron that the true Laws of Magic were written by Aureon, while the twisted, lawless and secret ways of Shadow Magic consists of the portion of magic hidden away by the Shadow when he separated from Aureon. (Note that this very closely parallels Forgotten Realms' story of Mystra and the Weave, and Shar and the Shadow Weave.) Okay let's think of it like this. The SHADOW is a deity of dark magic, just because he IS depicted as a shadow and a majority of Shadow Casters might worship him equally it's completely idiotic to say that (especially in Eberron) that a DEITY would grant the power of this class when people don't even entirely know that DEITIES grant power to CLERICS. It's much easier to simply assume that the Shadow Caster is simply one who master's a form of magic from the Plane of Shadow (which DOES exist in Eberron) and make a person who uses the actual power OF the shadow a Cleric of the Shadow. I think you're confusing Eberron's "Faith is all ya got" pantheon with more typical "Of course you believe your god. He stopped by for tea last Sunday" pantheon of other deities.
yrogerg 03-04-07, 11:03 PM	Okay let's think of it like this. The SHADOW is a deity of dark magic, just because he IS depicted as a shadow and a majority of Shadow Casters might worship him equally it's completely idiotic to say that (especially in Eberron) that a DEITY would grant the power of this class when people don't even entirely know that DEITIES grant power to CLERICS. The thing is, objective proof aside, the clerics in question *would* insist that their power derives from their deity of choice. Even though there's no mechanical distinction, it's not unreasonable to suppose that many Shadowcasters identify the Shadow as the source of theirs.
DragoonDarkfire 03-04-07, 11:06 PM	The thing is, objective proof aside, the clerics in question *would* insist that their power derives from their deity of choice. Even though there's no mechanical distinction, it's not unreasonable to suppose that many Shadowcasters identify the Shadow as the source of theirs. Then why haven't house Philara or Thuranni done that either?
yrogerg 03-04-07, 11:19 PM	Then why haven't house Philara or Thuranni done that either? Because many != all, and the Dragonmarked Houses are largely flavored as secular -if not areligious- institutions? I mean, it's not even all that clear where the original Phairlans fell regarding the Undying Court/Qalbarin split, except insofar as they all fled to Kourvaire for fear of their own safety after House Vol was annihilated. Personally, if anything, I'd give the Houses of Shadow their own unique outlook, largely separate from the Host/Flame/Undying Court/BoV.
DragoonDarkfire 03-04-07, 11:38 PM	Because many != all, and the Dragonmarked Houses are largely flavored as secular -if not areligious- institutions? I mean, it's not even all that clear where the original Phairlans fell regarding the Undying Court/Qalbarin split, except insofar as they all fled to Kourvaire for fear of their own safety after House Vol was annihilated. Personally, if anything, I'd give the Houses of Shadow their own unique outlook, largely separate from the Host/Flame/Undying Court/BoV. Okay, the Soverighn Host/Dark Six exist in thousands of incarnations, some that have gone back to before Arenal itself. The drow for example have worshiped Vulkoor for eons and many scholars believe that Vulkoor and the Mockery are one and the same. It's then very likely to say that the Elves were aware of the legends of the Host before the Undying Court was even made. Now when the Mark of shadow first developed I find it quite amazed that they WOULDN'T go out and start saying that their Dragonmark was a gift from the Shadow or whatever incarnation he was in to them. So why is it there's nothing ON the shadow for the bearers of the mark of Shadow? Simply because the Shadow doesn't actually represent SHADOWS or the plane of Shadow as a whole. The Shadow represents dark magic and is worshiped by evil wizards and monsters and the like. The Dark Six are- essentially- the villains pantheon that is there to oppose the typical worshipers of good faith (AKA the Host). Frankly the way you describe the Shadow just plain doesn't fit with the Flavor of Eberron when you look at it from what you're saying. You're saying that an abstract concept which may or may/not exist granted the power of Shadow to some random people and these became Shadow casters. No. That kinda flavor only works in Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk where the gods are REAL, TANGIBLE and have a much greater influence on the world. In Eberron there are no Gods that can actually affect the aspects of Eberron. They are just faiths that are given life by faith. Whether or not they exist, no one knows and no one can say for sure. If you associate the Shadow Caster with the Shadow then you might as well associate the Changeling with the Traveler, while many WORSHIP the traveler there only actually connection with the Deity are the numerous folklore about them. Whereas the only tangible answer we have to their existence is the fact that dopplegangers and humanoids mated and had children. The flavor that I am presenting is that a House that has actually worked and manipulated the power of Shadows for years and then developed a class that- WOW SURPRISINGLY- uses the power of Shadows. Much more believable to the flavor of Eberron. Now you may counter this with Clerical magic, but you seem to forget that Magic in Eberron, like all other campaigns, has it's sources. We know that Arcane Magic is associated with the dragons, we know that druidic magic is associated with nature, it's all interconnected. Well without going out into anymore of a rant I think I'll say that automatically associating an ENTIRE CLASS with a single Deity of the dark six seems kinda constricting and overall takes away from the freedom of the player. Of course there would be people who worship the Shadow (or Dark Six) who are Shadowcasters and believe that their god grants them these powers. But those as the MAJORITY OF NPC'S AND PC'S? I don't think so.
yrogerg 03-05-07, 12:09 AM	Okay, the Soverighn Host/Dark Six exist in thousands of incarnations, some that have gone back to before Arenal itself. The drow for example have worshiped Vulkoor for eons and many scholars believe that Vulkoor and the Mockery are one and the same. It's then very likely to say that the Elves were aware of the legends of the Host before the Undying Court was even made. And yet, the elves of Aerenal, as well as their Tairindal and Qalbarin off-shoots, base little to none of their religious beliefs on the Host. This really suggests that as a religion, it probably didn't have much penetration into the culture that eventually spawned the Houses of Shadow. Note that this doesn't mean that the Houses of Shadow aren't another good source of Shadowcasters; it just means that Shadow-marked characters are more likely to be areligious or have a different religious system entirely. Now when the Mark of shadow first developed I find it quite amazed that they WOULDN'T go out and start saying that their Dragonmark was a gift from the Shadow or whatever incarnation he was in to them. So why is it there's nothing ON the shadow for the bearers of the mark of Shadow? Simply because the Shadow doesn't actually represent SHADOWS or the plane of Shadow as a whole. Umm... again, if the Phairlans came from the Aerenal Elves, and the Host is, at most, a footnote of a footnote with regards to Aerenal belief, then the main reason why they wouldn't associate their marks with the Shadow is rather self-evident, and has nothing to do with what the archetype of The Shadow fundamentally is or isn't. The Shadow represents dark magic and is worshiped by evil wizards and monsters and the like. The Dark Six are- essentially- the villains pantheon that is there to oppose the typical worshipers of good faith (AKA the Host). Frankly the way you describe the Shadow just plain doesn't fit with the Flavor of Eberron when you look at it from what you're saying. You're saying that an abstract concept which may or may/not exist granted the power of Shadow to some random people and these became Shadow casters. No, I didn't. I said: Spellcasters that prefer "darker" magic wouldn't necessarily *draw* their power from The Shadow, but they could easily identify with and revere The Shadow, and this reverence and devotion could color their magic, even though they're non-divine casters. No. That kinda flavor only works in Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk where the gods are REAL, TANGIBLE and have a much greater influence on the world. In Eberron there are no Gods that can actually affect the aspects of Eberron. They are just faiths that are given life by faith. Whether or not they exist, no one knows and no one can say for sure. [...] The flavor that I am presenting is that a House that has actually worked and manipulated the power of Shadows for years and then developed a class that- WOW SURPRISINGLY- uses the power of Shadows. Much more believable to the flavor of Eberron. Sure. I certainly never said that the Houses of Shadows weren't a viable source of Shadowcasters. But that hardly makes them the only one. Now you may counter this with Clerical magic, but you seem to forget that Magic in Eberron, like all other campaigns, has it's sources. We know that Arcane Magic is associated with the dragons, we know that druidic magic is associated with nature, it's all interconnected. Err, what? Well without going out into anymore of a rant I think I'll say that automatically associating an ENTIRE CLASS with a single Deity of the dark six seems kinda constricting and overall takes away from the freedom of the player. Not if it's just another option, of many. Personally, I think that arguing that any of the obvious potential sources -including the Shadow, but also including a connection to the Plane of Shadow itself, to the dragonmarks, or any of a number of others, simply doesn't work is the only way to be restricting or take freedom away from a player. And that's not what I was doing; it's what you were. Of course there would be people who worship the Shadow (or Dark Six) who are Shadowcasters and believe that their god grants them these powers. But those as the MAJORITY OF NPC'S AND PC'S? I don't think so. I would suggest that the majority of religious PCs and NPCs believe that the gods -or at least their gods- actually do exist, and actually do interact with them on some level, yes. That's typically how religion works. I'd also suggest that the majority of people who believe otherwise would either be deists or atheists. In fact, those are the only two things my earlier statements can be construed as implying.
AvonRekaes 03-05-07, 08:10 AM	I think sometimes people get too into the "subjective deities" thing. Sure, no one's ever seen, talked to, or had tea with any of the gods, but there's plenty of weird crap that goes on in the world that the deities may or may not have a hand in. Look at Secrets of Xen'drik, there's this one adventure site about the Claw of Vulkoor, a giant scorpion claw that sprouts from the ground in the jungles of Xen'drik and obviously carries the blessing of Vulkoor. Now yes, because no one's ever seen Vulkoor, it's possible that whatever intelligence is behind the Claw is not him. But it's also entirely possible that it is. What's my point? The Shadow may not come down from on high (or up from down low, depending on your view of things) and teach the secrets of Shadowcasting to his worshipers, but it is entirely possible that one sect of the Shadow's religion studies the Plane of Shadow (because they might think the plane holds significance to the religion, that the Shadow might've been "born" from the plane itself, or that the plane IS the Shadow). Then, in their studies, standardized a form of channeling the power of the Plane of Shadow into the Shadowcaster tradition. See? Not once was the existance of the Shadow as an objective, real deity ever needed for that explaination, but it still ties it to his religion. Hell, look at the Umbragen. They worship a force they call "The Umbra (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/umbra)". They gain supernatural abilities (and alternate racial statistics and subsitution levels) from this source of power. It could be the Shadow or it couldn't. Just because the gods aren't proven to exist doesn't mean there's NO evidence of it, or that mortals can't draw power from a similar source and attribute it to the god.
Deus_Proelii 03-05-07, 10:37 AM	Why wouldn't Pact Magic practitioners be persecuted or at least stigmatized in Eberron? True, the more impersonal and remote deities do not seem to be dependent on mortal belief for their power. However the priests of those deities may still view pact magic as being an abomination since it binds an alien entity which is neither fiendish nor celestial to a mortal's soul. In fact many of these vestiges were once beings or mortals who would have been considered to be among the vilest of the vile by any pious worshipper of the Host. In addition, one could argue that in Eberron the remoteness of the deities means that their priests have much more leeway to get up to all kinds of mischief, such as targeting a little-known, easily-misunderstood practice for political ends. Or they could just be sincerely misguided... or misled. I could definitely see the followers of the Silver Flame hunting down Binders, either because they view it as akin to fiendish possession, blasphemy or even because the fiend in the flame might have suggested it to them. A large part of the whole flavour and appeal of Pact Magic lies in its forbidden, heretical feel, which would be lost were Binders merely seen to be just another type of sorcerer or wizard.
jesterjeff 03-05-07, 06:15 PM	In Eberron it works even better for the Binders' stigmatic reputation. The priests of the Organized religions have, at best, Celestials/Infernals/Abyssals to call upon. And Even they confess that They worship gods that they've never seen. The Binders summon and bind their souls to entities that are beyond the Reach of the High and Low...entities that Directly grant power to their summoners. To a Binder there's a comfort in knowing that there's someones aiding them...Clerics and Paladins have faith, Binders have knowledge... And it would be an easy step to have the churches organize a propaganda campaign similar to the witchhunts of the real world. and the fact that most Vestiges bestow demonic attributes and appearances to their summoners, well that makes it even easier for the church to turn the peoples against them...Even convincing the learned men and women of the Arcane community that Binders are a dangerous force. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Shadowcasters use magic based in the plane of shadow, illusionary power with real effects. They believe that the plane of shadow is the inverse of the real Eberron that they know and loath...So after experiencing the powers of the plane of shadow, worshiping the Shadow is an easy step for them. They'd Then combine the lessons of the plane with the dogmas of the church. So Shadowcasters, then Clerics of Shadow. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Truenamers, well the flavor of Eberron gives them an easy place. A legendary power that the founders and makers of the World, The Three Dragons, used. A power that inspired the Draconic prophesies. True name magic just feels primal. without the refinement of arcane or divine. The will of divine and the learning of Arcane. So give it to the Elder races, let the young races scratch and craw their way into that august and learned community. It's something to respect and hold in awe....The Graduate and Master's study of magic.
DragoonDarkfire 03-05-07, 06:26 PM	And yet, the elves of Aerenal, as well as their Tairindal and Qalbarin off-shoots, base little to none of their religious beliefs on the Host. This really suggests that as a religion, it probably didn't have much penetration into the culture that eventually spawned the Houses of Shadow. Note that this doesn't mean that the Houses of Shadow aren't another good source of Shadowcasters; it just means that Shadow-marked characters are more likely to be areligious or have a different religious system entirely. Which completely removes the Shadow as a possibility. Thank you for giving me the grounds to say that the Shadow isn't a good source for the Shadowcaster. Umm... again, if the Phairlans came from the Aerenal Elves, and the Host is, at most, a footnote of a footnote with regards to Aerenal belief, then the main reason why they wouldn't associate their marks with the Shadow is rather self-evident, and has nothing to do with what the archetype of The Shadow fundamentally is or isn't. Yea but it's all the quite possible they were AWARE of those Deities and may have possibly even worshiped them before the founding of the Undying Court. Which brings the question as to why they wouldn't have associated those powers with the Shadow or whatever incarnation he was in. No, I didn't. I said: Quote: Spellcasters that prefer "darker" magic wouldn't necessarily *draw* their power from The Shadow, but they could easily identify with and revere The Shadow, and this reverence and devotion could color their magic, even though they're non-divine casters. AH. Well that does make some sense. Sure. I certainly never said that the Houses of Shadows weren't a viable source of Shadowcasters. But that hardly makes them the only one. Indeed it doesn't but the problem then is how did these other "groups" gain the knowledge of Shadow Casting. The way I see it if a person wanted to gain the power of the Shadow he would simply become a Cleric of the shadow. Someone or something must have taught them the skills to Shadowcasting, or somehow developed it on their own. Problem is that the description of the class itself ties it with the Plane of Shadow so the most logical assumption would in fact be the Shadow dragon (since dragons are kinda magic masters in Eberron) and I kinda already said there was a rumor about the house making a deal with Shadow dragons (kinda like the RUMOR of Merrix d'Cannith's forge) so could other sects or organizations learned it? Probably yes, if those organization somehow related with Shadow Dragons or beings from the plane of shadow that developed the class via their own powers. Err, what? I'll go more clearly into this. As far as anyone knows Druidic magic (or at the very least Gatekeeper magic) was practically unknown until Varaak showed up, not only that but you should notice that almost all magic in Eberron is tied with dragons (or fiends if you're going by Khybers powers) so it's kinda clear to the fact that dragons are sorta the whole "keepers of magic" and that the only reason the lesser races developed magic was thanks to the dragons influence. The elves learned magic at the feet of the giants who learned their magic directly from the dragons, the giants also had outposts on Khorvaire and Sarlona so it's likely that the primitive races of these continents saw the giants working with their magic and started working with it themselves. Basically what I'm saying is that magic comes from the dragons and in that way it's interconnected. Of course I could be wrong on this if anyone else has a better idea. (Please note that Psionics and magic are not the same thing). Not if it's just another option, of many. Personally, I think that arguing that any of the obvious potential sources -including the Shadow, but also including a connection to the Plane of Shadow itself, to the dragonmarks, or any of a number of others, simply doesn't work is the only way to be restricting or take freedom away from a player. And that's not what I was doing; it's what you were. To quote the original person who started this up. I, personally, would consider using Shadowcasters to represent followers of The Shadow. Now I would have had no problem with this if he had worded it to be more like- "I believe that another possible sect or group of Shadowcasters could be connected with the Shadow and it's followers" He suggested the class was tied with the Shadow based on it's name alone. I was suggesting it STARTED with the two houses and then SPREAD OUT from there. Not restricting at all when you consider that it's had a good 10-20 years to move across Khorvaire and possibly into other places like Xendrik of Sarlona. I would suggest that the majority of religious PCs and NPCs believe that the gods -or at least their gods- actually do exist, and actually do interact with them on some level, yes. That's typically how religion works. duh but that doesn't mean that they do. In fact it's stated at several times they're at best distant patrons. So basically while they believe that their gods affect the world the amount of effect they actually deliver is either incredibly minute or incredibly subtle. I'd also suggest that the majority of people who believe otherwise would either be deists or atheists. In fact, those are the only two things my earlier statements can be construed as implying. Okay enough of this. We're talking about the Shadowcaster class and it's possible origins.
DragoonDarkfire 03-05-07, 06:36 PM	I think sometimes people get too into the "subjective deities" thing. Sure, no one's ever seen, talked to, or had tea with any of the gods, but there's plenty of weird crap that goes on in the world that the deities may or may not have a hand in. Look at Secrets of Xen'drik, there's this one adventure site about the Claw of Vulkoor, a giant scorpion claw that sprouts from the ground in the jungles of Xen'drik and obviously carries the blessing of Vulkoor. Now yes, because no one's ever seen Vulkoor, it's possible that whatever intelligence is behind the Claw is not him. But it's also entirely possible that it is. What's my point? The Shadow may not come down from on high (or up from down low, depending on your view of things) and teach the secrets of Shadowcasting to his worshipers, but it is entirely possible that one sect of the Shadow's religion studies the Plane of Shadow (because they might think the plane holds significance to the religion, that the Shadow might've been "born" from the plane itself, or that the plane IS the Shadow). Then, in their studies, standardized a form of channeling the power of the Plane of Shadow into the Shadowcaster tradition. See? Not once was the existance of the Shadow as an objective, real deity ever needed for that explaination, but it still ties it to his religion. Hell, look at the Umbragen. They worship a force they call "The Umbra (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/umbra)". They gain supernatural abilities (and alternate racial statistics and subsitution levels) from this source of power. It could be the Shadow or it couldn't. Just because the gods aren't proven to exist doesn't mean there's NO evidence of it, or that mortals can't draw power from a similar source and attribute it to the god. Of course. That's where Clerics come from in Eberron, but you also need to remember that things aren't ALWAYS what the norm is and Clerics can worship abstract ideals and alignments but still gain powers from them just as they would with Deities. But the difference here is that we aren't dealing with JUST the Shadow and it's followers. We also have the Mark of Shadow, The Plane of Shadow, Shadow Dragons and any number of assassin or "Shadowy" guilds that could also just as easily create the Shadowcaster class after some years of practice. In the end the decision isn't up to anyone it's the DM's decision if he wants to use my idea for house Phiarla's and Thuranni's involvement in the Shadowcaster or not. If you want to make the Shadowcaster automatically associated with a cult devoted to the Shadow go right ahead. If you want to make it a new discovery or creation from an assasin's guild go right ahead too. All that this is, is fluff. Nothing more or less and I have absolutely no control over your game or association with it. I only wrote this out of a possible way to introduce it for those Eberron players who own the tome of magic and aren't quite sure how to introduce the classes into the setting.
yrogerg 03-05-07, 07:11 PM	I suppose I should elaborate at this point that I would put Shadowcasters in multiple places, stemming from multiple traditions that identify (correctly or not) different sources as empowering their magic. And, when it comes down to it, there isn't really a good way *to* determine whether that source is The Shadow, the Plane of Shadow, a particularly powerful Raja, or Kyber itself. Which completely removes the Shadow as a possibility. Thank you for giving me the grounds to say that the Shadow isn't a good source for the Shadowcaster. Umm, no it doesn't, any more than the possibility of populations of non-Quori-related psions eliminates Quori as a source of psionic power. Yea but it's all the quite possible they were AWARE of those Deities and may have possibly even worshiped them before the founding of the Undying Court. Which brings the question as to why they wouldn't have associated those powers with the Shadow or whatever incarnation he was in. Absent anything in any source material (even Faiths of Eberron) indicating such, though, this is entirely conjecture. Yes, the Drow revere the same archetypes that make up the Dark Six, but the Drow and Elves actually have wildly different cultures, and nothing has even remotely hinted that the migrated elves' religious beliefs include the Host or the Six at all. Now I would have had no problem with this if he had worded it to be more like- "I believe that another possible sect or group of Shadowcasters could be connected with the Shadow and it's followers" He suggested the class was tied with the Shadow based on it's name alone. I was suggesting it STARTED with the two houses and then SPREAD OUT from there. Not restricting at all when you consider that it's had a good 10-20 years to move across Khorvaire and possibly into other places like Xendrik of Sarlona. Actually, there's a pretty good rationale for associating it with the Shadow, beyond the name: just look at the myth itself, and the prestige class already associated with it. Aureon sacrificed his shadow to gain greater magical power and control over the laws of magic itself, but giving his shadow sentience and turning it into his doppelganger (as in the concept, not the creature). Devotees of the Shadow associated it with "lawless, secret" magic, and Spellcasters who embrace the Shadow are said to gain quick access to immense, secret power, hence the Escalation Mage, which *is* tied to the Shadow, despite being an arcane caster. Multiclass Shadowcasters may experience a similar sort of escalation of power when they start down the shadowed path, per the "A Creeping Darkness" sidebar on page 115.
yrogerg 03-05-07, 07:19 PM	duh but that doesn't mean that they do. In fact it's stated at several times they're at best distant patrons. So basically while they believe that their gods affect the world the amount of effect they actually deliver is either incredibly minute or incredibly subtle. Mmm, or they power they exert is extremely personal, in which case it could still be identified as the source of personal inspiration or the development of certain special powers. One thing that I like about Eberron is that it tries really hard to come closer to the particulars of real-world religious belief in this regard.
ArcTan 03-05-07, 09:18 PM	Okay let's think of it like this. The SHADOW is a deity of dark magic, just because he IS depicted as a shadow and a majority of Shadow Casters might worship him equally it's completely idiotic to say that (especially in Eberron) that a DEITY would grant the power of this class when people don't even entirely know that DEITIES grant power to CLERICS. Who said that the Shadow literally granted shadow magic to shadowcasters? I didn't, and I don't see that anyone else did. It's the reverse. We're saying that people who use shadow magic and believe in the Sovereign Host would probably revere the deity called the Shadow and use the Shadow's separation from Aureon to explain the split between shadow magic and arcane magic. It's much easier to simply assume that the Shadow Caster is simply one who master's a form of magic from the Plane of Shadow (which DOES exist in Eberron) and make a person who uses the actual power OF the shadow a Cleric of the Shadow. There is no "actual power of the Shadow", as you said. People who gain divine spellcasting specifically by revering the Shadow as an entity and the principles for which the Shadow stands are Clerics of the Shadow (without necessarily being "granted" their spells by the Shadow directly). People who simply use shadow magic probably believe that this magic comes from the Shadow and revere it. Just as there are Clerics of Aureon who probably have the Magic domain but are nonetheless divine spellcasters, compared to ordinary arcane casters, who generally worship Aureon because they believe he created the source of their power without devoting their lives to him in the way Clerics do. I don't see why this is such a hard, or difficult concept -- in Forgotten Realms most Good-aligned spellcasters at least acknowledge Mystra and the majority of them worship her, but nonetheless they're separate from the actual Clerics of Mystra. I think you're confusing Eberron's "Faith is all ya got" pantheon with more typical "Of course you believe your god. He stopped by for tea last Sunday" pantheon of other deities. No, I'm not. I'm actually saying that because the deities aren't around specifically granting this power or that, there are different ways for a spellcaster to think of himself as "drawing his power from the Shadow". People who worship the Shadow think that the Shadow literally is a source of power -- that it's a deity intricately bound with all that is hidden, secret and dark in the world, just as people who worship Aureon believe that all of magic proceeds from the Laws written by Aureon at the beginning of the world. This is different from being a Cleric of either god, because they don't devote themselves to these deities as a *principle* -- but yes, they sure as hell do believe that all magic comes from Aureon or all shadow magic comes from the Shadow, just as in FR all magic comes from Mystra whether you worship her or not. This is actually *more* tenable in a world where the gods may just be symbols rather than having been proven to be conscious anthropomorphic entities. (If Aureon is just a symbolic representation of the laws of magic, then it makes sense that he hasn't struck down Evil or Chaotic magic-users and taken away their powers, while it makes a little less sense to say this of Mystra.)
ArcTan 03-05-07, 09:35 PM	Okay, the Soverighn Host/Dark Six exist in thousands of incarnations, some that have gone back to before Arenal itself. The drow for example have worshiped Vulkoor for eons and many scholars believe that Vulkoor and the Mockery are one and the same. It's then very likely to say that the Elves were aware of the legends of the Host before the Undying Court was even made. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Many scholars from Khorvaire believe that Vulkoor and the Mockery are one and the same. This is because of Khorvaire's cultural elitism. The drow don't worship anything like the pantheon of the Host -- the Children of Vulkoor have a singular god, Vulkoor, who is like the Mockery in many ways but completely lacks the Mockery's backstory of being the brother of Dol Arrah and Dol Dorn or any relationship with the rest of the Six or the Host. I actually think it's fairly unlikely the Sovereign Host was well known among the Aerenal Elves before any came to Khorvaire. We aren't given any particular indication in the text that this is true. Indeed, PGtE implies that the Dark Six weren't part of the *human* pantheon until the humans from Sarlona discovered the Goblinoid Pantheon, and the Nine/Six split is explicitly because the Sarlonans identified nine of the goblins' sixteen gods with their own nine gods, named six of the others evil gods, and tried to erase all record of the last one. Now when the Mark of shadow first developed I find it quite amazed that they WOULDN'T go out and start saying that their Dragonmark was a gift from the Shadow or whatever incarnation he was in to them. So why is it there's nothing ON the shadow for the bearers of the mark of Shadow? Simply because the Shadow doesn't actually represent SHADOWS or the plane of Shadow as a whole. Er, he has the Shadow domain, which is the closest any deity in Eberron has to a link to the Plane of Shadow. I mean, he's called "the Shadow". The Shadow represents dark magic and is worshiped by evil wizards and monsters and the like. What is shadowcasting if not "dark magic"? Keep in mind that "dark" doesn't mean "evil", it just means most people think of it as evil. Even good-aligned members of the monstrous races tend to think of themselves as creations of the Shadow. The Dark Six are- essentially- the villains pantheon that is there to oppose the typical worshipers of good faith (AKA the Host). From the perspective of worshippers of the Host. Frankly the way you describe the Shadow just plain doesn't fit with the Flavor of Eberron when you look at it from what you're saying. You're saying that an abstract concept which may or may/not exist granted the power of Shadow to some random people and these became Shadow casters. I'm saying that that's what people *believe*. That's why they worship the gods. Just as arcane casters and truenamers believe that Aureon wrote the laws of magic at the beginning of time, or artificers believe that Onatar created the universe in his great Forge. No. That kinda flavor only works in Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk where the gods are REAL, TANGIBLE and have a much greater influence on the world. In Eberron there are no Gods that can actually affect the aspects of Eberron. They are just faiths that are given life by faith. Whether or not they exist, no one knows and no one can say for sure. Yes. And no one can say for sure where the Plane of Shadow came from, or where shadow magic came from. That doesn't mean there isn't something people in the world actually believe about it. Just as most arcane casters believe that Aureon created arcane magic (whatever the truth may be), most shadowcasters probably believe that the Shadow created shadow magic. This is built-in, obvious flavor for the gods. If you associate the Shadow Caster with the Shadow then you might as well associate the Changeling with the Traveler, while many WORSHIP the traveler there only actually connection with the Deity are the numerous folklore about them. ...How is this different from "associating" changelings with the Traveler? I don't claim that it's a proven fact that the Shadow literally created shadow magic, or that the Traveler created the changeling race. I believe that it's part of the *setting* that most changelings do believe that the Traveler had a hand in their creation, and most shadowcasters who believe in the Host at all believe their magic has something to do with the Shadow. Whereas the only tangible answer we have to their existence is the fact that dopplegangers and humanoids mated and had children. That's not actually a tangible answer, in that it's never been proven to be true, any more than it's a provable fact that shifters are descended from lycanthropes (many shifters believe the exact opposite). The flavor that I am presenting is that a House that has actually worked and manipulated the power of Shadows for years and then developed a class that- WOW SURPRISINGLY- uses the power of Shadows. Much more believable to the flavor of Eberron. Also greatly limits where shadowcasters can come from, because the Shadow Houses are tiny and secretive. I'm not a fan of having a single established source for any particular magical tradition, unless it's essential to the nature of that magical tradition that it be so (i.e. obscure "traditions" that only exist as class abilities of one particular PrC). Shadowcasting is linked to the Plane of Shadow, which connects to everything. The Houses of Shadow may have some of the oldest shadowcasting traditions on Khorvaire, but who's to say that others don't exist, including more recent ones that incorporate the lore about Aureon's exile of the Shadow that's so evocative? (The religious beliefs of the whole nation of Droaam are based on this myth.) I also, if you'll remember, suggested that the drow nation of the Umbragen may have even older shadow traditions than the Phiarlan -- in fact, they may have the most powerful shadow traditions of which Phiarlan's are a pale shadow, and the Khorvairian worshippers of the Shadow may be a pale shadow of that. Even so. Now you may counter this with Clerical magic, but you seem to forget that Magic in Eberron, like all other campaigns, has it's sources. We know that Arcane Magic is associated with the dragons, we know that druidic magic is associated with nature, it's all interconnected. You're treating "associated with" like it's some big thing. I'm talking about it as a cultural thing more than anything else. I don't actually care what the objective "source of magic" is, and in one of my campaigns that's a question without any real answer. (What's the "source of electricity", in our world? The "source of nuclear power"? The "source of computer technology"? There isn't a single "source" -- they're all just ways of harnessing forces that exist in the world.) Dragons are associated with arcane magic because they're very old entities who helped develop it and teach it to the giants. But it doesn't *come* from them, it's just something people can learn how to do, and probably have learned how to do at many different times and places in different ways. Same with Clerical magic, which exists in many different religions that believe very different things about the gods (including the Blood of Vol or followers of the Becoming God, who don't believe in anything we'd literally call a "deity"). Same with Druidic magic, which comes from vastly different beliefs about this thing called "nature". When I say shadowcasters are associated with the Shadow, I mean that Khorvairian shadowcasters *believe* that their powers arise from the great split between Aureon and the Shadow that occurred at the beginning of time, and that they're on the less popular, often maligned, but just as crucial side, the side of the Shadow. Well without going out into anymore of a rant I think I'll say that automatically associating an ENTIRE CLASS with a single Deity of the dark six seems kinda constricting and overall takes away from the freedom of the player. Of course there would be people who worship the Shadow (or Dark Six) who are Shadowcasters and believe that their god grants them these powers. But those as the MAJORITY OF NPC'S AND PC'S? I don't think so. *shrug* This is all flavor suggestions for people who don't want to make up your own. Of course you can make up whatever the hell you want. But the point of pointing out the history of Aureon and the Shadow is so people have something to go on. There's probably plenty of shadowcasters who aren't very religious, just as there are plenty of wizards who aren't very religious -- but if the Aureon/Shadow split *exists* and is such a huge part of mythology, it seems to me less likely rather than more likely that it wouldn't become a big and established part of shadowcaster lore, at least in Khorvaire. Seriously, you have a mythological origin of magic that's all about the original god of magic *casting off his shadow* and bleeding off all the dark, hidden, evil parts of himself -- and of magic itself -- in the process. How would shadowcasting *not* become associated with the Shadow?
AvonRekaes 03-05-07, 09:51 PM	Of course. That's where Clerics come from in Eberron, but you also need to remember that things aren't ALWAYS what the norm is and Clerics can worship abstract ideals and alignments but still gain powers from them just as they would with Deities. But the difference here is that we aren't dealing with JUST the Shadow and it's followers. We also have the Mark of Shadow, The Plane of Shadow, Shadow Dragons and any number of assassin or "Shadowy" guilds that could also just as easily create the Shadowcaster class after some years of practice. In the end the decision isn't up to anyone it's the DM's decision if he wants to use my idea for house Phiarla's and Thuranni's involvement in the Shadowcaster or not. If you want to make the Shadowcaster automatically associated with a cult devoted to the Shadow go right ahead. If you want to make it a new discovery or creation from an assasin's guild go right ahead too. All that this is, is fluff. Nothing more or less and I have absolutely no control over your game or association with it. I only wrote this out of a possible way to introduce it for those Eberron players who own the tome of magic and aren't quite sure how to introduce the classes into the setting. I wasn't saying that I didn't like your House Phiarla method. If you look up in the thread (second reply to your post), I actually said that I liked the fluff you wrote for the Shadowcaster. I was just pointing out that using the arguement that "Eberron deities are too remote for Shadowcasting to be attributed to the Shadow" is a fallacy. There are plenty of ways to attribute unique forms of magic to deities without having imperical evidence of a deity's existance. Your Dragonmarked House fluff is good. I'd likely use it for most of any NPCs that use shadowcasting (especially with Thuranni's less traditional method of selling the secrets of shadow mysteries). However, just because I use your fluff doesn't mean the worshippers of the Shadow could not have developed the secrets of Shadowcasting in parrallel. I can use both fluff explainations. There's nothing mutually exclusive about them.
ArcTan 03-05-07, 10:01 PM	Which completely removes the Shadow as a possibility. Thank you for giving me the grounds to say that the Shadow isn't a good source for the Shadowcaster. Limiting shadowcasting only to those affiliated with Phiarlan or Thuranni is *far* more limiting, setting-wise, than simply saying shadowcasters tend to revere the Shadow. The former actually says you have to have a particular background and have to be linked to one of a small set of families in Khorvaire. The latter just says that this particular magical tradition comes with a set of religious baggage to go along with it, which is certainly true of most magical traditions in real life -- and in most D&D settings. Yea but it's all the quite possible they were AWARE of those Deities and may have possibly even worshiped them before the founding of the Undying Court. Which brings the question as to why they wouldn't have associated those powers with the Shadow or whatever incarnation he was in. Maybe because the Shadow didn't actually exist in their culture, much as you seem to be insisting he must have. For all your talk about defending Eberron's coy stance on deities, you keep defaulting to this stance of talking about the Shadow as though it must actually exist or not exist, and that if I say shadowcasters are "associated with the Shadow" I must mean that the Shadow is literally granting them powers. FWIW, I'm not convinced the Sovereign Host existed at all before the rise of civilization in Sarlona, and certainly didn't exist in its present form until the conquest of Khorvaire. This means that the Shadow wasn't part of the original Host religion -- mythologically speaking, the idea of Aureon casting out the Shadow came up when a Shadow-like god was discovered in the Goblinoid Pantheon and labelled as "evil" because he wasn't in the Sovereign Host, much as the ancient Greeks came up with the Titanomache when they conquered another civilization with another set of gods. Indeed it doesn't but the problem then is how did these other "groups" gain the knowledge of Shadow Casting. The way I see it if a person wanted to gain the power of the Shadow he would simply become a Cleric of the shadow. In Forgotten Realms, all magic is the "power of Mystra", yet most people who want the power of magic become Wizards or Sorcerers rather than Clerics. You keep ragging on FR and Greyhawk without seeming to demonstrate much knowledge about how they actually work, including how magic and magical deities in FR and Greyhawk actually work. (Mystra is the source of magic in FR, but that doesn't mean you have to worship her to be able to use magic, any more than you have to worship Chauntea in order to be able to plant crops and have them grow.) Someone or something must have taught them the skills to Shadowcasting, or somehow developed it on their own. Problem is that the description of the class itself ties it with the Plane of Shadow so the most logical assumption would in fact be the Shadow dragon (since dragons are kinda magic masters in Eberron) Frankly, I think a menagerie of different dragons is a lot more silly than just saying that people invented shadowcasting the way people invented arcane casting, and tied it to one of their existing gods. and I kinda already said there was a rumor about the house making a deal with Shadow dragons (kinda like the RUMOR of Merrix d'Cannith's forge) so could other sects or organizations learned it? *shrug* Is this in Dragonmarked? Look, even if it is, there's nothing that says this couldn't have percolated down or leaked out to others who made it into a whole separate magical tradition over time. If there *is* a link between shadow dragons and shadowcasting... well, there's a reason that the Sovereign Host are frequently depicted as dragons, and said to be the first children of the Progenitor Wyrms. This shadow dragon could easily have been identified by later generations as the Shadow, especially if they're getting a distorted version of the origin story because they're using a rogue magical tradition that leaked out from House Phiarlan. Probably yes, if those organization somehow related with Shadow Dragons or beings from the plane of shadow that developed the class via their own powers. I don't see why someone has to come from the Plane of Shadow to have shadow magic. It's just something you learn. Do you think an arcane caster *must* have been taught by the dragons or outsiders in order to learn magic? I don't like that flavor at all. The existing Tome of Magic, just for the record, never says that shadowcasting originated in any particular place or from any particular source. It especially doesn't say beings from the Plane of Shadow taught it to mortals. It says that shadowcasting and the Plane of Shadow are *associated*, but saying it's "drawing power from the Plane of Shadow" is just a flavor suggestion. It explicitly tells you you can use shadowcasting as a magic mechanic without having the Plane of Shadow in your campaign. I'll go more clearly into this. As far as anyone knows Druidic magic (or at the very least Gatekeeper magic) was practically unknown until Varaak showed up, not only that but you should notice that almost all magic in Eberron is tied with dragons (or fiends if you're going by Khybers powers) No. Magic is not "tied with dragons". Magic is *thought of* as being associated with the dragons, because the dragons are the oldest race on Eberron and taught the giants. Nonetheless, people can and do make magical discoveries all the time without the dragons' help. The giants certainly did, unless you think the dragons specifically gave them that doomsday device they didn't want them to use. This is what I don't like -- the idea that just because magic doesn't exist in real life, if it exists in a fantasy setting it needs some specific "source". Dragons teaching giants how to use magic isn't any different from Prometheus teaching humans how to use fire -- it just means that they're capable of doing something they weren't doing before, not that they're drawing some kind of power from the dragons as a source. so it's kinda clear to the fact that dragons are sorta the whole "keepers of magic" and that the only reason the lesser races developed magic was thanks to the dragons influence. I highly doubt this. Note that the humans had magic when they came to Khorvaire, and have magical traditions on Sarlona spreading back centuries, and yet have *no known connection with the dragons at all*. They didn't learn magic from the giants, whom they had no known contact with, or the giants' elven slaves, who kept to themselves on Aerenal and had no real contact with humans -- no chance for half-elves to be born -- until Phiarlan flees to Khorvaire centuries later. The elves learned magic at the feet of the giants who learned their magic directly from the dragons, the giants also had outposts on Khorvaire and Sarlona so it's likely that the primitive races of these continents saw the giants working with their magic and started working with it themselves. You keep saying things are "likely" that I don't ever remember seeing in any supplement. Basically what I'm saying is that magic comes from the dragons and in that way it's interconnected. Of course I could be wrong on this if anyone else has a better idea. (Please note that Psionics and magic are not the same thing). My "better idea" is that magic is just a part of the world, a kind of technology that people learn to use if they're clever enough. Now I would have had no problem with this if he had worded it to be more like- "I believe that another possible sect or group of Shadowcasters could be connected with the Shadow and it's followers" Yeah. That's the easiest way to add flavor to the class, by linking it to Eberron religion. The vast majority of Eberron characters will be ordinary citizens of the Five Nations, who will be deeply steeped in knowledge about the Sovereign Host, even if they themselves choose a different religion or no religion at all. It makes a great deal of sense that any shadowcasting tradition in Khorvaire will be tied to the story of Aureon and the Shadow, which seems explicitly designed as a myth to explain hidden, secret or destroyed magical traditions. (Without shadowcasting, the Shadow becomes a good deity to associate with ideas like binding, or necromancy, or warlockism, or the powers of an Ur-Priest.) He suggested the class was tied with the Shadow based on it's name alone. Not just that, but on Aureon's exiling of the Shadow, the fact that the Shadow is the only core deity with a link to the Plane of Shadow (the Shadow domain), etc. I was suggesting it STARTED with the two houses and then SPREAD OUT from there. If I had to claim that all magic was interconnected and it had to start somewhere, I'd say shadowcasting almost certainly started with the drow tradition that became the Umbragen, and the Phiarlan Houses are at best imitating the Umbragen. They didn't even start manifesting the Mark of Shadow until generations after the Umbragen came into existence, after all. Not restricting at all when you consider that it's had a good 10-20 years to move across Khorvaire and possibly into other places like Xendrik of Sarlona. Sure. But most shadowcasters probably do believe or are aware of a belief that links their discipline with the Shadow. That's a plain and simple way to give them a thematic link to the setting, like calling changelings "Children of the Traveler". It tells you how shadowcasters will see themselves and be seen. It's not a claim to metaphysically explain the origin of shadowcasting -- something I wouldn't be that interested in doing anyway. duh but that doesn't mean that they do. In fact it's stated at several times they're at best distant patrons. So basically while they believe that their gods affect the world the amount of effect they actually deliver is either incredibly minute or incredibly subtle. Or that it's restricted within certain bounds. Maybe it's part of the rules that the deities grant magic powers but can't discriminate when they do so -- and yet those powers wouldn't exist if not for those deities. This is how Mystra interacts with the Weave in Forgotten Realms -- part of her pledge as the goddess of magic is to make magic available to all who earn it, and she can only mess with that contract within certain defined bounds (like selecting certain Chosen). It may be that Aureon, who unlike Mystra is Lawful Neutral, will not even intervene within those bounds -- he sets up the rules and lets the rest happen. Look, there are any number of things one can believe about the deities. The thing about Eberron is that it doesn't prove things one way or the other -- you may believe that the gods literally exist and have created the world the way they did to encourage faith -- that Arawai really did make the many species of plants and crops and controls the way they grow, that Olladra is really there determining the outcome of every die roll, that the Fury really speaks her voice inside your heart whenever you let passion rule you -- and that the gods are merely restricted from revealing their power in a personal way. Nonetheless, this doesn't mean their role in the world is "minute" -- a believer in Arawai might believe that if Arawai didn't exist the seasonal cycle would stop; a believer in Dol Arrah might believe if Dol Arrah didn't exist there would be no courage or civilization or idealism on Eberron. These are perfectly valid beliefs. Just because Eberron gods don't intervene the way FR gods do doesn't mean they don't exist. Just because, for instance, the Shadow doesn't have a humanoid avatar walking around with HD and class levels and defined abilities doesn't mean that the Plane of Shadow *isn't* the mind and body of the Shadow cast off from the Material when Aureon, the writer of the laws of nature, spun off his dark side. Okay enough of this. We're talking about the Shadowcaster class and it's possible origins. And you seem to be operating on a basis of not just saying that the gods' status in Eberron is ambiguous but saying the gods don't exist and can't be allowed to have any importance outside a Clerical context, which I think is nonsense. The vast majority of warriors in Eberron revere Dol Arrah, Dol Dorn or the Mockery (with the exception of those places where religions like the Flame have taken hold). The vast majority of ordinary spellcasters revere Aureon. The vast majority of artificers and magewrights revere Onatar. Why can't we say that, similarly, the vast majority of shadowcasters revere the Shadow, and look at what that implies about the philosophy behind the science of shadowcasting (much as we talk about how, say, Buddhist philosophy informs Eastern martial arts)?
ArcTan 03-05-07, 10:09 PM	Of course. That's where Clerics come from in Eberron, but you also need to remember that things aren't ALWAYS what the norm is and Clerics can worship abstract ideals and alignments but still gain powers from them just as they would with Deities. You're missing the point. The Claw of Vulkoor exists and grants power to Vulkoor's Children even if they're not Clerics of Vulkoor. The Umbra exists and gives the Umbragen Drow their racial abilities whether or not those drow happen to be Clerics of the Umbra. Being a Cleric is a very particular thing in Eberron. You don't have to be a Cleric to benefit from something associated with a deity. This is because, in Eberron, just as in real life, it's not clear whether these things come from the deities or whether the deities were invented to explain these things. But the difference here is that we aren't dealing with JUST the Shadow and it's followers. We also have the Mark of Shadow, The Plane of Shadow, Shadow Dragons and any number of assassin or "Shadowy" guilds that could also just as easily create the Shadowcaster class after some years of practice. Well, sure, but the majority of people in Khorvaire come from a background of knowing about the Host and the Six, and are likely to incorporate that philosophy into whatever it is they do. The ECS talks about how even though Artificers aren't that religious, by and large -- it's certainly not like being a Cleric -- most Artificers pray to Onatar, and greatly enjoy myths that push Onatar into the foreground as the architect and designer of the world. As far as the Plane of Shadow and Shadow Dragons, even Tome of Magic doesn't literally recommend that shadowcasting be taught by Shadow Plane denizens like the Shadovar -- this is unlikely, after all, since the majority of these beings are not friendly to mortals. Indeed, the Tome of Magic gives options for playing a Shadow Plane denizen who's outright hostile to mortal shadowcasters and tries to run them off the plane. The Plane of Shadow may be the physical source of shadowcasters' powers, but this doesn't mean anything -- they certainly don't go there to learn their powers, any more than a Wizard travels to the Astral Plane to learn the spell teleport. As far as Shadow Dragons... enh. I'll have to read Dragonmarked for myself, but I really doubt there's any link between that race and the Shadow Houses. (Is this "rumor" you mention canon, or just fanon?) I don't like the multifarious silly races of dragon that much anyway -- from gem to magma to shadow -- but sure, I'll believe that Shadow Dragons may have an inherent link to shadowcasting. However, Shadow Dragons, like all dragons, are so currently remote from any of the mortal races of Khorvaire that any link between them and current traditions of shadowcasting must be nearly forgotten by now. Certainly I think being personally taught shadowcasting by a Shadow Dragon is an incredibly cheesy idea for a modern-day PC in a game. In the end the decision isn't up to anyone it's the DM's decision if he wants to use my idea for house Phiarla's and Thuranni's involvement in the Shadowcaster or not. If you want to make the Shadowcaster automatically associated with a cult devoted to the Shadow go right ahead. If you want to make it a new discovery or creation from an assasin's guild go right ahead too. All that this is, is fluff. Nothing more or less and I have absolutely no control over your game or association with it. I only wrote this out of a possible way to introduce it for those Eberron players who own the tome of magic and aren't quite sure how to introduce the classes into the setting. Sure. I just don't think they're mutually exclusive. And I especially don't appreciate the way you jumped all over people talking about a much-discussed and fairly old idea about shadowcasting on the boards -- discussed at least a year or more ago -- as though it was born of ignorance about Eberron's setting assumptions. As far as your original article, that's the main problem I have with both your suggestions for shadow magic and truename magic -- they're too constricting and specific. They're great hooks for a particular character to have, but to say that this is a suggestion for how shadowcasters exist in Eberron or how Truenamers exist in Eberron rubs me the wrong way -- especially the implication that Truenaming as a tradition only exists on one island, taught by one dragon, and is all spreading out from there.
DragoonDarkfire 03-05-07, 10:44 PM	Sure. I just don't think they're mutually exclusive. And I especially don't appreciate the way you jumped all over people talking about a much-discussed and fairly old idea about shadowcasting on the boards -- discussed at least a year or more ago -- as though it was born of ignorance about Eberron's setting assumptions. I wasn't here a year ago. Thanks for making it seem like I'm stupid because I was ignorant of that particular piece of information. As far as your original article, that's the main problem I have with both your suggestions for shadow magic and truename magic -- they're too constricting and specific. They're great hooks for a particular character to have, but to say that this is a suggestion for how shadowcasters exist in Eberron or how Truenamers exist in Eberron rubs me the wrong way -- especially the implication that Truenaming as a tradition only exists on one island, taught by one dragon, and is all spreading out from there. That's not exactly what I was trying to do. Look at what Keith Baker does on his expansions for Eberron. He gives examples on where these particular magics come from and where they might exist. Giving a few back stories has apparently made me a subject of ridicule for some reason >_> the last thing I want you to do is to use this as the ONLY method of how these magics came around. This is your campaign and your game. I was posting on a few ideas about how classes might have come into modern day Khorvaire or introduced into the campaign. To act as though I were say, WoTC themselves and complain on how restricting something is to a cannon Eberron is, well stupid. This is something I wrote about the Tome of Magic classes for Eberron and posted on here for others to comment on as nothing more then a suggestion for a plot hook, an explanation or some other piece of information for DM's to use for their adventures. Now if all you want me to do is too put some more info in for Shadowcasters and Truename speakers and show some other possibilities on how they could come about I'll gladly do that.
yrogerg 03-05-07, 10:47 PM	I agree with most of what you said, but just to nitpick: FWIW, I'm not convinced the Sovereign Host existed at all before the rise of civilization in Sarlona, and certainly didn't exist in its present form until the conquest of Khorvaire. This means that the Shadow wasn't part of the original Host religion -- mythologically speaking, the idea of Aureon casting out the Shadow came up when a Shadow-like god was discovered in the Goblinoid Pantheon and labelled as "evil" because he wasn't in the Sovereign Host, much as the ancient Greeks came up with the Titanomache when they conquered another civilization with another set of gods. In the Qalabrin section of SoX, they definitely touches on another version of Aureon: stories tell that the Titans of Xen'drik learned their magic from Ourolon, while the Qalabrin drew their power from Ourolon's shadow. With the implication being (as with Shadowcasters) that the shadow is the "truer", "more powerful" reflection, from the perspective of the Qabalrin. Obviously, a slightly different myth, and presented as little more than that, but I'm personally a bit more of a fan of the idea that the deities of the Host still touch on spiritually resonant archetypes that keep cropping up across Eberron, even if each one is somewhat of a corruption. Of course, it might just be that I've been reading a few too many wikipedia articles on Jung.
ArcTan 03-06-07, 11:25 PM	I wasn't here a year ago. Thanks for making it seem like I'm stupid because I was ignorant of that particular piece of information. I'm not calling you stupid because you didn't know that. I'm just miffed because people who have been reading and talking about this stuff a long time do think there's merit to it, and you're dismissing it by saying we don't know about the setting and are thinking of things in "Forgotten Realms terms", which -- at least the way I read it -- is often a subtle way of saying "n00b who got into D&D by reading Drizzt books or playing Baldur's Gate". That's not exactly what I was trying to do. Look at what Keith Baker does on his expansions for Eberron. He gives examples on where these particular magics come from and where they might exist. Giving a few back stories has apparently made me a subject of ridicule for some reason >_> the last thing I want you to do is to use this as the ONLY method of how these magics came around. This is your campaign and your game. I was posting on a few ideas about how classes might have come into modern day Khorvaire or introduced into the campaign. Okay. The thing is Keith's articles usually go with a broad overview of most of the ways a certain element could work in Eberron rather than creating a specific plot hook built around a single adventure location, unless there's a good reason to do so. There's nothing wrong with an island where Truenaming is common, I just don't like the setting idea -- which some people *would* like -- of making that island the "source of Truenaming in Eberron". But I don't think anyone was making you an object of ridicule. The main thing was that someone brought up an alternate suggestion that was really just as valid as yours, and you were the one who started ridiculing it.
ArcTan 03-06-07, 11:48 PM	I agree with most of what you said, but just to nitpick: In the Qalabrin section of SoX, they definitely touches on another version of Aureon: stories tell that the Titans of Xen'drik learned their magic from Ourolon, while the Qalabrin drew their power from Ourolon's shadow. With the implication being (as with Shadowcasters) that the shadow is the "truer", "more powerful" reflection, from the perspective of the Qabalrin. Obviously, a slightly different myth, and presented as little more than that, but I'm personally a bit more of a fan of the idea that the deities of the Host still touch on spiritually resonant archetypes that keep cropping up across Eberron, even if each one is somewhat of a corruption. Of course, it might just be that I've been reading a few too many wikipedia articles on Jung. I'm not saying I don't like Keith's idea of "eerie similarities" among gods of all different places that gives credence to the priests of the Host's theory that there really are just these 15 archetypes of gods that have influenced gods all over the world. But I think that this comes in the form of various religions having various different constellations of gods that the priests of the Host can then compare to their own. Ourolon and his shadow *are* eerily similar to Aureon and the Shadow, and I even agree with Keith that it's interesting to say Ourolon's rituals and scriptures bear a strong resemblance to Aureon's, but nonetheless I don't think the Elves worshipped the 15 deities of the Host and Six in the same way that Khorvairians did, and that they had all 15 deities and mapped their relationships the same way. What I liked about PGtE was how it *did* point out various similarities between different deities of different places but also pointing out ways in which these similarities are questionable or controversial. The sahuagin worship a version of the Devourer, but from their point of view the Devourer is a benevolent provider, not an evil destroyer. (They hold this view because they, themselves, are evil raiders and parasites, to be sure. Still a different view.) Vulkoor is a god who shares many of the attitudes and ideals of the Mockery, but is a primal, revered god of the entire drow culture, not an outcast god who represents traitors and criminals. Hleid and Iborighu of the Frostfell are compared, by Khorvairians to Olladra and the Keeper, but from the Frostfell denizens' POV, this is a way to trivialize two deities as side deities or minor deities who, for them, are primal deities whose struggle defines reality itself -- *not* just two random deities who happen to be deities of luck vs. greed (because to them, deities whom Khorvairians think are more "important" -- the Dol siblings, who are war gods, the gods of magic and technology like Aureon/the Shadow and Onatar/the Traveler -- are all irrelevant in an arctic context). It's this kind of twisting and mutating that I think is interesting and that is most like real-life religions -- *including* the syncretists who struggle to define all gods as reflections of the same Jungian archetypes, and who have to explain away the differences between Ishtar and Aphrodite to make them into the same love goddess (and yes, I agree that in many ways they *are* the same love goddess -- and yet).