Transitive Planes? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Transitive Planes? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
OctaviusIII
05-19-07, 06:53 PM I was just going over the planes in the ECS and I found this sentence - p. 94, top of the second column:

Eberron's transitive planes are identical to those planes as detailed in the Dungeon Master's Guide, so they do not have entries here.

Now, my assumption until now was that the various planes outlined in the DMG were not in Eberron's multiverse. It seems like I was wrong, or am I missing something?
Nived
05-19-07, 06:59 PM The transitive planes are the Shadow Plane (not Mabar), the Etheral Plane, and the Astral Plane.

So many spells and monster mechanics tie directly into these planes that to change them would be a hassle.

You can see them in the cosmology here (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/eb_gallery/82105.jpg).

And just so we're clear what we're talking about

Transitive Planes
These three planes have one important common characteristic: Each is used to get from one place to another. The Astral Plane is a conduit to all other planes, while the Ethereal Plane and the Plane of Shadow both serve as means of transportation within the Material Plane they’re connected to. These planes have the strongest regular interaction with the Material Plane and are often accessed by using various spells. They have native inhabitants as well.

*Edit Hrm... That's odd. Now I guess I just invented it in my head but looking at the cosmology diagram above I could have sworn that the planes move outside the reach of the Astral Plane when remote (seems they do, no problem). However I thought Xoriat was made perminately remote byt he gatekeeper seals (forced to stay just outside the Astral), and Dal Quor was cut off from its rotations completely and just hanging out outside the Astral. That doesn't seem to be the case.

Huh...

What keeps PCs from getting to those planes again?
Shady314
05-20-07, 07:13 AM However I thought Xoriat was made perminately remote byt he gatekeeper seals (forced to stay just outside the Astral), and Dal Quor was cut off from its rotations completely and just hanging out outside the Astral. That doesn't seem to be the case.

Huh...

What keeps PCs from getting to those planes again?

No idea on Dal Quor. That seems to be in error. As for Xoriat though I don't think that was pushed away by the Gatekeeper seals the way Dal Quor was by the Giants. I think the seals simply prevent manifest zones of Xoriat, block the effects of it being coterminous and prevent planar travel from Xoriat to Eberron. Like walls just holding it off. Just my guess though.

Perhaps that shows the way the planes should/did work before the giants and gatekeepers got involved?
Yadot
05-20-07, 01:15 PM No idea on Dal Quor. That seems to be in error. As for Xoriat though I don't think that was pushed away by the Gatekeeper seals the way Dal Quor was by the Giants. I think the seals simply prevent manifest zones of Xoriat, block the effects of it being coterminous and prevent planar travel from Xoriat to Eberron. Like walls just holding it off. Just my guess though.

Perhaps that shows the way the planes should/did work before the giants and gatekeepers got involved?
In Secrets of Sarlona it is revealed that the Quori are using the monoliths to slowing pull back Dal Quor into conjuction with Eberron. It probably shouldn't be that close in the diagram though.
yrogerg
05-20-07, 06:48 PM No idea on Dal Quor. That seems to be in error. As for Xoriat though I don't think that was pushed away by the Gatekeeper seals the way Dal Quor was by the Giants. I think the seals simply prevent manifest zones of Xoriat, block the effects of it being coterminous and prevent planar travel from Xoriat to Eberron. Like walls just holding it off. Just my guess though.

More or less. The ECS describes Dal Quor as sealed *sealed away*, and inaccessable by normal means. Xoriat, however, is simply indefinitely remote: at best, the Gatekeeper's seals keep it that way (in addition to sealing the manifest zones), and at worst, it's just completing its normal cycle, and when it comes coterminous again, all Xoriat will break loose. In either case, though, nothing in the ECS says that planar travel is actually prevented: its remoteness means you need to make a spellcraft check to get there, but that's it.
The Fireballed Mage
05-20-07, 07:42 PM What keeps PCs from getting to those planes again?

World setting specific fluff that trumps general mechanics.

Like many things the game mechanics may or may not allow, it's up to the DM to have flavor specific information that applies to his or her world to make things happen the way it should for your game.

It's possible a DM could simply say, "Dal Quor and Xoriat are lost in the Astral plane. No one you talk talk to knows how to get to them."

Or the DM could also say, "Dal Quor and Xoriat's locations are known in the Astral Plane. However, there is no easy way to navigate to these planes. Getting there will require many months of travel in the Astral Plane, through dangerous regions filled with foul creatures and zones overflowing with natural and magical hazards the likes of which few mortals have braved before."

Don't be afraid to step out of the cold, hard rules as written to add some necessary flavour to your game world. A setting like Eberron that makes changes to core cosmology requires some work to bring things into play with the new world view.

Short answer: if you want to "red-line" it to the planes then feel free. If you want to make your players slog their way through unusual creatures and months of grey-wispy terrain that confounds them at every turn to reach these mystical places... go ahead.
Nived
05-20-07, 09:38 PM Well yes but its not just the PCs, Xoriat for its own purposes could care less but the denizens of Dal Quor are pretty much trying to get into Eberron by any means possible.
The Fireballed Mage
05-20-07, 11:10 PM Well yes but its not just the PCs, Xoriat for its own purposes could care less but the denizens of Dal Quor are pretty much trying to get into Eberron by any means possible.

Ah, but read "by any means possible." as "because the normal means don't work."

Maybe there is a way to travel though the Astral from the Prime to Dal Quor... but the path is never the same way twice. Shifting planes and maliable Astral currents means that you can't simply retrace your steps. Each time you attempt to cross the shining void takes months of hardship and struggle (time not meaning all that much to an immortal, I grant you), and brings you into conflict with things that even immortals aren't sure what they are. The time they can spend, but the conflict, the struggle, the use of resources on this quest that might get them no closer to their prize...

Or maybe there is a good chance you actually will get lost. Imagine the terror the quori would feel if a number of their fellows --since they are fininte in number but immortal in spirit-- attempted to traverse the Astral plane... and are still unheard of to this day?

So I can totally understand why the might seek a different way to Eberron, because the other methods are too risky, too filled with uncertainy and doubt.

However, that leaves a blind spot that brave (foolish) and clever (brain dead) adventurers could use if they possessed the courage (stupidity) to seek out Dal Quor by means the enemy would not think to use...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
OctaviusIII 05-19-07, 06:53 PM	I was just going over the planes in the ECS and I found this sentence - p. 94, top of the second column: Eberron's transitive planes are identical to those planes as detailed in the Dungeon Master's Guide, so they do not have entries here. Now, my assumption until now was that the various planes outlined in the DMG were not in Eberron's multiverse. It seems like I was wrong, or am I missing something?
Nived 05-19-07, 06:59 PM	The transitive planes are the Shadow Plane (not Mabar), the Etheral Plane, and the Astral Plane. So many spells and monster mechanics tie directly into these planes that to change them would be a hassle. You can see them in the cosmology here (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/eb_gallery/82105.jpg). And just so we're clear what we're talking about Transitive Planes These three planes have one important common characteristic: Each is used to get from one place to another. The Astral Plane is a conduit to all other planes, while the Ethereal Plane and the Plane of Shadow both serve as means of transportation within the Material Plane they’re connected to. These planes have the strongest regular interaction with the Material Plane and are often accessed by using various spells. They have native inhabitants as well. *Edit Hrm... That's odd. Now I guess I just invented it in my head but looking at the cosmology diagram above I could have sworn that the planes move outside the reach of the Astral Plane when remote (seems they do, no problem). However I thought Xoriat was made perminately remote byt he gatekeeper seals (forced to stay just outside the Astral), and Dal Quor was cut off from its rotations completely and just hanging out outside the Astral. That doesn't seem to be the case. Huh... What keeps PCs from getting to those planes again?
Shady314 05-20-07, 07:13 AM	However I thought Xoriat was made perminately remote byt he gatekeeper seals (forced to stay just outside the Astral), and Dal Quor was cut off from its rotations completely and just hanging out outside the Astral. That doesn't seem to be the case. Huh... What keeps PCs from getting to those planes again? No idea on Dal Quor. That seems to be in error. As for Xoriat though I don't think that was pushed away by the Gatekeeper seals the way Dal Quor was by the Giants. I think the seals simply prevent manifest zones of Xoriat, block the effects of it being coterminous and prevent planar travel from Xoriat to Eberron. Like walls just holding it off. Just my guess though. Perhaps that shows the way the planes should/did work before the giants and gatekeepers got involved?
Yadot 05-20-07, 01:15 PM	No idea on Dal Quor. That seems to be in error. As for Xoriat though I don't think that was pushed away by the Gatekeeper seals the way Dal Quor was by the Giants. I think the seals simply prevent manifest zones of Xoriat, block the effects of it being coterminous and prevent planar travel from Xoriat to Eberron. Like walls just holding it off. Just my guess though. Perhaps that shows the way the planes should/did work before the giants and gatekeepers got involved? In Secrets of Sarlona it is revealed that the Quori are using the monoliths to slowing pull back Dal Quor into conjuction with Eberron. It probably shouldn't be that close in the diagram though.
yrogerg 05-20-07, 06:48 PM	No idea on Dal Quor. That seems to be in error. As for Xoriat though I don't think that was pushed away by the Gatekeeper seals the way Dal Quor was by the Giants. I think the seals simply prevent manifest zones of Xoriat, block the effects of it being coterminous and prevent planar travel from Xoriat to Eberron. Like walls just holding it off. Just my guess though. More or less. The ECS describes Dal Quor as sealed sealed away, and inaccessable by normal means. Xoriat, however, is simply indefinitely remote: at best, the Gatekeeper's seals keep it that way (in addition to sealing the manifest zones), and at worst, it's just completing its normal cycle, and when it comes coterminous again, all Xoriat will break loose. In either case, though, nothing in the ECS says that planar travel is actually prevented: its remoteness means you need to make a spellcraft check to get there, but that's it.
The Fireballed Mage 05-20-07, 07:42 PM	What keeps PCs from getting to those planes again? World setting specific fluff that trumps general mechanics. Like many things the game mechanics may or may not allow, it's up to the DM to have flavor specific information that applies to his or her world to make things happen the way it should for your game. It's possible a DM could simply say, "Dal Quor and Xoriat are lost in the Astral plane. No one you talk talk to knows how to get to them." Or the DM could also say, "Dal Quor and Xoriat's locations are known in the Astral Plane. However, there is no easy way to navigate to these planes. Getting there will require many months of travel in the Astral Plane, through dangerous regions filled with foul creatures and zones overflowing with natural and magical hazards the likes of which few mortals have braved before." Don't be afraid to step out of the cold, hard rules as written to add some necessary flavour to your game world. A setting like Eberron that makes changes to core cosmology requires some work to bring things into play with the new world view. Short answer: if you want to "red-line" it to the planes then feel free. If you want to make your players slog their way through unusual creatures and months of grey-wispy terrain that confounds them at every turn to reach these mystical places... go ahead.
Nived 05-20-07, 09:38 PM	Well yes but its not just the PCs, Xoriat for its own purposes could care less but the denizens of Dal Quor are pretty much trying to get into Eberron by any means possible.
The Fireballed Mage 05-20-07, 11:10 PM	Well yes but its not just the PCs, Xoriat for its own purposes could care less but the denizens of Dal Quor are pretty much trying to get into Eberron by any means possible. Ah, but read "by any means possible." as "because the normal means don't work." Maybe there is a way to travel though the Astral from the Prime to Dal Quor... but the path is never the same way twice. Shifting planes and maliable Astral currents means that you can't simply retrace your steps. Each time you attempt to cross the shining void takes months of hardship and struggle (time not meaning all that much to an immortal, I grant you), and brings you into conflict with things that even immortals aren't sure what they are. The time they can spend, but the conflict, the struggle, the use of resources on this quest that might get them no closer to their prize... Or maybe there is a good chance you actually will get lost. Imagine the terror the quori would feel if a number of their fellows --since they are fininte in number but immortal in spirit-- attempted to traverse the Astral plane... and are still unheard of to this day? So I can totally understand why the might seek a different way to Eberron, because the other methods are too risky, too filled with uncertainy and doubt. However, that leaves a blind spot that brave (foolish) and clever (brain dead) adventurers could use if they possessed the courage (stupidity) to seek out Dal Quor by means the enemy would not think to use...