Travelling between planes, but not through the material plane - rules? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Travelling between planes, but not through the material plane - rules? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ksbsnowowl
07-18-07, 08:43 PM The ECS has excellent rules about plane shifting to and from the different planes from and to Eberron, and the effects of them being coterminous and remote. However, the ECS doesn't identify how one travels directly from, say, Shavarath to Syriana. Is it possible? Would it only require a Plane Shift? Would there be any coterminous/remote-type effects on such travel?
Rerecros
07-18-07, 11:24 PM I think this was done on purpose, Eberron puts more emphasis on the prime material. Not like in planscape, where "those clueless primers" don't know anything about the multiverse. The prime is put at the center of all things, and most extraplanar beings are likely unawear of the exsistance of the other planes except when they incounter unknown type of outsider on the prime.
Rekko
07-20-07, 08:23 AM This is a very good question, indeed. It appears that destroying worlds is a form of art to the Daelkyrs. Therefore, have they destroyed other worlds besides Xoriat and the Material plane?

Rekko
Rerecros
07-20-07, 03:03 PM By other worlds, I think they meant other planets on the prime, not other planes.

And they didn't destroy Xoriat, that's their home, they're from there, though they don't rule it. The Uvuudaum and more powerful beings are probably closer to the actual rulers of Xoriat.
ksbsnowowl
07-20-07, 09:11 PM The reason I asked is because I'd like to introduce the Hellbred race from Fiendish Codex II into my game. Their original "history" doesn't work well with Eberrons cosmology, and in another thread a poster suggested having them be souls that both archons and devils had stolen from Dolhuur (sp?) and conscripted into their eternal war in Shavarath.

I rather liked this idea, even though it is somewhat difficult logistically for the devils to pull off in mass numbers (none of them can plane shift, though some of the archons can).

However, the ECS doesn't address inter-planar travel other than traveling to and from the material plane, and the subsequent effects of planes being remote, etc.

Thus the basis and desire behind my question. It's not something the PC's will be doing per se, but it is important in a background sense.
Rerecros
07-20-07, 10:11 PM I don't have the fiendish codex, but looking at this...

Wizards: Plus, there's a new PC race in town, we hear. What can you tell us about the hellbred? A force of virtue? Or a force of fiendish might?

RJS: The hellbred race is a great way for players to use much of the material presented in this book and others without having the character be evil. These characters are reborn after the moment of death, when they earnestly repented for the mortal failings. Since devils are unwilling to release such a choice morsel, they fight for the soul, twisting and transforming it into something new. Their bodies are corrupted twisted by evil, yet the gods cleanse their souls, freeing them of the taint and corruption that plagued them in life. These are doomed characters that fight for their redemption.

Given their unique nature, hellbreds have several cool racial features. They gain evil's exception, an ability that allows them to utilize evil magic items and spells without picking up those pesky negative levels. As they advance, they also acquire additional abilities, letting them develop devilish traits. In short, the hellbred is a great option for player's looking to play doomed champions, anti-heroes, and other dark and gloomy characters without having to play an evil alignment.

Yup, gods, an alignment based afterlife, this does not work well with eberron.

in another thread a poster suggested having them be souls that both archons and devils had stolen from Dolhuur (sp?) and conscripted into their eternal war in Shavarath...I rather liked this idea, even though it is somewhat difficult logistically for the devils to pull off in mass numbers (none of them can plane shift, though some of the archons can).

That would be pretty close to impossible to pull off.
First as you said, devils can't planeshift. Second I'm sure the various inhabitants of Dolough, the Marut, lemures and nalfeshee wouldn't let this happen. Third how would they even turn incorpeal shades into soldiers. And finally if it did work they would be tore apart by whirling blades soon enough and would be too much effort in the first place.

I suggest loosing the fluff completely and just use the crunch for a specific type of planetouched. Maybe a child born irradiated by the the proximity of shavarath.
ksbsnowowl
07-21-07, 02:24 PM I suggest loosing the fluff completely and just use the crunch for a specific type of planetouched. Maybe a child born irradiated by the the proximity of shavarath.Ah, but it is the damned soul attempting to redeem himself that I want to utilize, moreso than the mechanics of the race. Someone who tries constantly to redeem himself of his past, but struggles internally with the fiendish touch placed unwillingly upon himself.

The character mechanically would be a Cleric/Warlock/Eldritch Disciple/Hellfire Warlock - someone devoted to the church that saved his soul from the clutches of fiends, but terrified of the new, hellish fires that manifest unwillingly in times of dire panic. The hellbred provides a perfect and credible vessle for this terrifying touch of evil spouting forth from one's otherwise very devout soul.
Rerecros
07-21-07, 03:51 PM Ah, but it is the damned soul attempting to redeem himself that I want to utilize, moreso than the mechanics of the race. Someone who tries constantly to redeem himself of his past, but struggles internally with the fiendish touch placed unwillingly upon himself.

Ah, but that can be done without obligation.
I find redemption more sincere when it undertaken willingly, not because they are afraid of what will happen in the afterlife. That is the whole point behind keeping alignment an afterlife separate.

"Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose he ceases to be a man."
Prison Caplain, A Clockwork Orange.
ksbsnowowl
07-22-07, 10:47 PM Ah, but that can be done without obligation.True, but I still like this vehicle for it.

I rather liked this idea, even though it is somewhat difficult logistically for the devils to pull off in mass numbers (none of them can plane shift, though some of the archons can).
Ask, and the great Wizards from the Coast will provide...

I just got the Monster Manual V for my birthday yesterday. Lo and behold, there is a Baatezu called a Remmanon that can plane shift at will, bringing along willing passengers. The devils are intelligent, charismatic, and manipulative, even granting devilish contracts (faustian pacts).

The Remmanon has an "... in Eberron" entry, but it is utter crap, stating they are native to the material plane, and are descendants of the Quori who invaded millenia ago... How in Dol Dorn's name does a Baatezu decend from a Quori?

Thus, I've constructed a better-fitting role for the Remmanon. They use their plane shifting and contractual abilities to secure aid for devils in the eternal war on Shavarath. Thus, like most beings of the plane, their primary goal is to further the objectives of their war.

About 20 years ago one Remmanon secured a contract that has led to the appearance of Hellbred. He was in Dolurrh, looking for ways to exploit things to further the eternal war in the devils’ favor, and he noticed a potential point of manipulation. Amnizu devils (FCII) reside on Dolurrh, and are tasked with ensuring that the souls arriving on the plane remain there forever. The problem is that pesky mortals sometimes call back the souls of the dead via magic. The Amnizus’ superiors, the Marut, become displeased with the Amnizu if they fail in their duties, allowing too many souls escape. Each Amnizu is accountable for the souls that arrive in his province of Dolurrh.

Noting this accountability, the devil introduced itself to one of the Amnizu as Remmanon. It offered a contract to the Amnizu presiding over the province of hell. He would provide the Amnizu’s province with an impenetrable prison fortress where he could imprison newly arrived souls with physical barriers and a Dimensional Anchor until such time as the soul has succumbed to the desolation of the plane, and had given up any desire to be returned to its former life. In exchange, “When a soul is needed, Remmanon may offer a soul newly arrived to Dolurrh the option to be born again to fight in an eternal war.” The soul would make the choice freely and willingly, and thus only new souls that had not succumbed to the desolation could be chosen.

Being the cunning manipulators they are, the Remmanon played as being one of dull wits. Despite his apparent dimwittedness, the Remmanon assured the Amnizu that the number of souls Remmanon can harvest could not exceed the number of souls prevented from being resurrected, held captive within hell’s new fortress. The Amnizu agreed, the contract was signed, and the Remmanon returned with a devilish work force. Soon the fortress was complete, and the Amnizu was pleased with his new security.

The Amnizu made the mistake of believing Remmanon to be the individual’s name, rather than his race. Not a day after the fortress was completed, a hundred Remmanon arrived in Dolurrh’s hell province, all cloaked in disguises. They scoured the province for new souls that had yet to be captured by the Amnizu and imprisoned in his new fortress. Those they found saw before them angelic beings offering them the chance to escape this glum imprisonment, and to be born again to fight in an eternal war against demons. Most every soul to whom they made this offer accepted.

As the souls left Dolurrh with the Remmanon, most of their memories were stripped away and left in that desolate realm. Upon reaching Shavarath, the plane bore them anew, with bodies made from the dirt, blood, and battle detritus of the plane, much as the slain devils and archons are reborn from the plane itself after their slaughter.

The reborn souls then came to realize they had been conscripted by a legion of devils. Some accepted this in stride. Both the devils and the archons fought mercilessly; did it really matter which side they were on? Others despised their new existence, tortured by the knowledge they had freely chosen to aid such creatures.

The marut did not like that an increasing number of souls were disappearing from hell province, but the contract was without flaw. So they increased their encouragement of the Amnizu of hell province to not fail in his lawful obligation. They placed a Mark of Justice upon him that would allow him to feel every pain inflicted on the escaped souls while they were absent from Dolurrh. This pain in turn has caused the Amnizu to grant a touch of protection to the hellbred released by his contract, in the hopes that he can stifle the pain that he must bear.

Not long after, a few Remmanon began offering a few hellbred soldiers as a part of contracts with beings on other planes. This is how the few hellbred on Eberron came to be in the material world.It's a rough write-up, but a good seed, I think.

It deals at least with the lawful inhabitants of Dolurrh, and being lawful, they would honor a valid contract. The failure of any lawful duty falls upon the Amnizu, and thus he is the focus of their punishment.

It also deals with the question of "where do their bodies come from?" as well as why they are not attacked by the whirling blades. (Although nothing is actually said clearly of souls becoming shades. It says visitors, implying those who arrive there temporarily via spells, etc. Either way, it remains a non-issue.)

Thus, the only unsatisfied beings in the arrangement are the Nalfeshnee (and the one unfortunate Amnizu), but I doubt the Marut would allow them to interfere with a valid contract, apart from capturing souls before they are found by the Remmanon.

So, the original question stands... is there anything stopping inter-planar travel that does not involve the material world? The only issue that comes to mind is, why then do the Quori not plane shift to another plane, and then shift to Eberron. Also similar for the Dealkyr. Maybe the Remmanon must stop over in Eberron first, but Eberron does not rebirth spirits as Shavarath does.

Like I said, it is a seed. I'll have to see where it goes.
Rerecros
07-23-07, 12:03 AM You can house rule however you like, but I do not particularly like your explanation.

First twenty years ago? these are outsiders, deal with at least centuries, if not vast eons :P

It's like the marut own a store, then hired some Amnizu to work it, he leaves and when he comes back the Amnizu took all the merchendise and kept the profits for themsleves, and they're all like, "Ha, we signed a contract".

Marut aren't exactly the balanced judge type of LN, they're more like the unstoppable killing machine type of LN.

Also I don't see how you are getting the whole "Repentant Martyr" out of the hellbred, there's still no mechanic that allows them to repent, which I thought was the point of all this.

I assume when a hellbred dies (which would be quite often on Shavarath), they just reapear in Dolugh, no fuss, no fowl. If you are seriously suggesting that they would be reborn on shavarath then the war there would be over quick, because while the demon and archon populations would be fixed, the devil's numbers would expland exponentially, they would win quickly. Needing only a grain of sand to tip the scales in the first place.
ksbsnowowl
07-23-07, 08:09 AM First twenty years ago? these are outsiders, deal with at least centuries, if not vast eons :PI just picked a number. It could be anything. I merely picked a recent number to explain why hellbred are not widespread anywhere yet other than on Shavarath. And the increased number of people dying, and potentially getting raised from the dead, would logically have increased somewhat during the Last War, thus spurring the Amnizu to accept the offer of a dimensional lock prison.

It's like the marut own a store, then hired some Amnizu to work it, he leaves and when he comes back the Amnizu took all the merchendise and kept the profits for themsleves, and they're all like, "Ha, we signed a contract".And in a lawful society, where would recompense for the storeowner come from? It would be paid by the individual who sold all the mechandise. Not from the people who legally purchased things from the store.

It never stipulates anywhere other than the Amnizu entry in the FCII the nature of why souls must be kept on the plane. The 'law' as it were could be "we must keep the souls of mortals on Dolurrh," rather than "souls of mortals must remain on Dolurrh." It is a subtle difference, but it is a difference. The former is supported by the Amnizu's entry. Perhaps I've not looked thoroughly enough, but I've not seen anything that shows the latter to be the case.

Perhaps the contract thing is a bit off, but the Amnizu role in the grand scheme of things is pretty spot-on. Per the FCII's entry for Amnizu in Eberron, "Amnizus are native to Dolurrh, it is their duty to ensure that those interred there remain forever. They are especially watchful for planar travelers, tracking their progress and making certain they don't liberate any of their charges."

In general they would be loath to let any soul escape from Dolurrh, but if they are given increasing pressure from their overseers, I could see how one might make the proposed mistake.

Marut aren't exactly the balanced judge type of LN, they're more like the unstoppable killing machine type of LN.Despite their intelligence, one could say the same of Pit Fiends in typical D&D, yet Pit Fiends serve the role of judge there...

Also I don't see how you are getting the whole "Repentant Martyr" out of the hellbred, there's still no mechanic that allows them to repent, which I thought was the point of all this.True, it is no longer a "salvation for the soul in the afterlife" type of repentance. It is more of a "I agreed to fight for the devils? How could I have chosen this? The blood of too many angels stains my hands and my heart. I've been traded in service to someone on the material realm; now is my chance to fight against the devils who would trick more souls into their unholy war..."

Also, keep in mind that they still have very little of the memories of their former selves, that includes their 'visit' to Dolurrh. They remember agreeing to the offer and being whisked away from somewhere, and finding themselves standing amidst a legion of devils - and really not much else.

I assume when a hellbred dies (which would be quite often on Shavarath), they just reapear in Dolugh, no fuss, no fowl.They are still mortal souls. When they die, they go straight to Dolurrh. When they die, the soul is immediately gone; there is no soul remaining for Shavarath to rebirth. Them being reborn the first time is only because someone went to the trouble to get the soul and 'physically' bring it to Shavarath. It's similar to someone going to Dolurrh via a Gate to retrieve a soul while it is remote. Once the soul is brought back to the material plane, nothing more is needed to resurrect them - the soul automatically binds with the body in that case. Shavarath merely does what it does - rebirth a soul - when it is presented with the unusual prospect of a mortal soul being on the plane.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ksbsnowowl 07-18-07, 08:43 PM	The ECS has excellent rules about plane shifting to and from the different planes from and to Eberron, and the effects of them being coterminous and remote. However, the ECS doesn't identify how one travels directly from, say, Shavarath to Syriana. Is it possible? Would it only require a Plane Shift? Would there be any coterminous/remote-type effects on such travel?
Rerecros 07-18-07, 11:24 PM	I think this was done on purpose, Eberron puts more emphasis on the prime material. Not like in planscape, where "those clueless primers" don't know anything about the multiverse. The prime is put at the center of all things, and most extraplanar beings are likely unawear of the exsistance of the other planes except when they incounter unknown type of outsider on the prime.
Rekko 07-20-07, 08:23 AM	This is a very good question, indeed. It appears that destroying worlds is a form of art to the Daelkyrs. Therefore, have they destroyed other worlds besides Xoriat and the Material plane? Rekko
Rerecros 07-20-07, 03:03 PM	By other worlds, I think they meant other planets on the prime, not other planes. And they didn't destroy Xoriat, that's their home, they're from there, though they don't rule it. The Uvuudaum and more powerful beings are probably closer to the actual rulers of Xoriat.
ksbsnowowl 07-20-07, 09:11 PM	The reason I asked is because I'd like to introduce the Hellbred race from Fiendish Codex II into my game. Their original "history" doesn't work well with Eberrons cosmology, and in another thread a poster suggested having them be souls that both archons and devils had stolen from Dolhuur (sp?) and conscripted into their eternal war in Shavarath. I rather liked this idea, even though it is somewhat difficult logistically for the devils to pull off in mass numbers (none of them can plane shift, though some of the archons can). However, the ECS doesn't address inter-planar travel other than traveling to and from the material plane, and the subsequent effects of planes being remote, etc. Thus the basis and desire behind my question. It's not something the PC's will be doing per se, but it is important in a background sense.
Rerecros 07-20-07, 10:11 PM	I don't have the fiendish codex, but looking at this... Wizards: Plus, there's a new PC race in town, we hear. What can you tell us about the hellbred? A force of virtue? Or a force of fiendish might? RJS: The hellbred race is a great way for players to use much of the material presented in this book and others without having the character be evil. These characters are reborn after the moment of death, when they earnestly repented for the mortal failings. Since devils are unwilling to release such a choice morsel, they fight for the soul, twisting and transforming it into something new. Their bodies are corrupted twisted by evil, yet the gods cleanse their souls, freeing them of the taint and corruption that plagued them in life. These are doomed characters that fight for their redemption. Given their unique nature, hellbreds have several cool racial features. They gain evil's exception, an ability that allows them to utilize evil magic items and spells without picking up those pesky negative levels. As they advance, they also acquire additional abilities, letting them develop devilish traits. In short, the hellbred is a great option for player's looking to play doomed champions, anti-heroes, and other dark and gloomy characters without having to play an evil alignment. Yup, gods, an alignment based afterlife, this does not work well with eberron. in another thread a poster suggested having them be souls that both archons and devils had stolen from Dolhuur (sp?) and conscripted into their eternal war in Shavarath...I rather liked this idea, even though it is somewhat difficult logistically for the devils to pull off in mass numbers (none of them can plane shift, though some of the archons can). That would be pretty close to impossible to pull off. First as you said, devils can't planeshift. Second I'm sure the various inhabitants of Dolough, the Marut, lemures and nalfeshee wouldn't let this happen. Third how would they even turn incorpeal shades into soldiers. And finally if it did work they would be tore apart by whirling blades soon enough and would be too much effort in the first place. I suggest loosing the fluff completely and just use the crunch for a specific type of planetouched. Maybe a child born irradiated by the the proximity of shavarath.
ksbsnowowl 07-21-07, 02:24 PM	I suggest loosing the fluff completely and just use the crunch for a specific type of planetouched. Maybe a child born irradiated by the the proximity of shavarath.Ah, but it is the damned soul attempting to redeem himself that I want to utilize, moreso than the mechanics of the race. Someone who tries constantly to redeem himself of his past, but struggles internally with the fiendish touch placed unwillingly upon himself. The character mechanically would be a Cleric/Warlock/Eldritch Disciple/Hellfire Warlock - someone devoted to the church that saved his soul from the clutches of fiends, but terrified of the new, hellish fires that manifest unwillingly in times of dire panic. The hellbred provides a perfect and credible vessle for this terrifying touch of evil spouting forth from one's otherwise very devout soul.
Rerecros 07-21-07, 03:51 PM	Ah, but it is the damned soul attempting to redeem himself that I want to utilize, moreso than the mechanics of the race. Someone who tries constantly to redeem himself of his past, but struggles internally with the fiendish touch placed unwillingly upon himself. Ah, but that can be done without obligation. I find redemption more sincere when it undertaken willingly, not because they are afraid of what will happen in the afterlife. That is the whole point behind keeping alignment an afterlife separate. "Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose he ceases to be a man." Prison Caplain, A Clockwork Orange.
ksbsnowowl 07-22-07, 10:47 PM	Ah, but that can be done without obligation.True, but I still like this vehicle for it. I rather liked this idea, even though it is somewhat difficult logistically for the devils to pull off in mass numbers (none of them can plane shift, though some of the archons can). Ask, and the great Wizards from the Coast will provide... I just got the Monster Manual V for my birthday yesterday. Lo and behold, there is a Baatezu called a Remmanon that can plane shift at will, bringing along willing passengers. The devils are intelligent, charismatic, and manipulative, even granting devilish contracts (faustian pacts). The Remmanon has an "... in Eberron" entry, but it is utter crap, stating they are native to the material plane, and are descendants of the Quori who invaded millenia ago... How in Dol Dorn's name does a Baatezu decend from a Quori? Thus, I've constructed a better-fitting role for the Remmanon. They use their plane shifting and contractual abilities to secure aid for devils in the eternal war on Shavarath. Thus, like most beings of the plane, their primary goal is to further the objectives of their war. About 20 years ago one Remmanon secured a contract that has led to the appearance of Hellbred. He was in Dolurrh, looking for ways to exploit things to further the eternal war in the devils’ favor, and he noticed a potential point of manipulation. Amnizu devils (FCII) reside on Dolurrh, and are tasked with ensuring that the souls arriving on the plane remain there forever. The problem is that pesky mortals sometimes call back the souls of the dead via magic. The Amnizus’ superiors, the Marut, become displeased with the Amnizu if they fail in their duties, allowing too many souls escape. Each Amnizu is accountable for the souls that arrive in his province of Dolurrh. Noting this accountability, the devil introduced itself to one of the Amnizu as Remmanon. It offered a contract to the Amnizu presiding over the province of hell. He would provide the Amnizu’s province with an impenetrable prison fortress where he could imprison newly arrived souls with physical barriers and a Dimensional Anchor until such time as the soul has succumbed to the desolation of the plane, and had given up any desire to be returned to its former life. In exchange, “When a soul is needed, Remmanon may offer a soul newly arrived to Dolurrh the option to be born again to fight in an eternal war.” The soul would make the choice freely and willingly, and thus only new souls that had not succumbed to the desolation could be chosen. Being the cunning manipulators they are, the Remmanon played as being one of dull wits. Despite his apparent dimwittedness, the Remmanon assured the Amnizu that the number of souls Remmanon can harvest could not exceed the number of souls prevented from being resurrected, held captive within hell’s new fortress. The Amnizu agreed, the contract was signed, and the Remmanon returned with a devilish work force. Soon the fortress was complete, and the Amnizu was pleased with his new security. The Amnizu made the mistake of believing Remmanon to be the individual’s name, rather than his race. Not a day after the fortress was completed, a hundred Remmanon arrived in Dolurrh’s hell province, all cloaked in disguises. They scoured the province for new souls that had yet to be captured by the Amnizu and imprisoned in his new fortress. Those they found saw before them angelic beings offering them the chance to escape this glum imprisonment, and to be born again to fight in an eternal war against demons. Most every soul to whom they made this offer accepted. As the souls left Dolurrh with the Remmanon, most of their memories were stripped away and left in that desolate realm. Upon reaching Shavarath, the plane bore them anew, with bodies made from the dirt, blood, and battle detritus of the plane, much as the slain devils and archons are reborn from the plane itself after their slaughter. The reborn souls then came to realize they had been conscripted by a legion of devils. Some accepted this in stride. Both the devils and the archons fought mercilessly; did it really matter which side they were on? Others despised their new existence, tortured by the knowledge they had freely chosen to aid such creatures. The marut did not like that an increasing number of souls were disappearing from hell province, but the contract was without flaw. So they increased their encouragement of the Amnizu of hell province to not fail in his lawful obligation. They placed a Mark of Justice upon him that would allow him to feel every pain inflicted on the escaped souls while they were absent from Dolurrh. This pain in turn has caused the Amnizu to grant a touch of protection to the hellbred released by his contract, in the hopes that he can stifle the pain that he must bear. Not long after, a few Remmanon began offering a few hellbred soldiers as a part of contracts with beings on other planes. This is how the few hellbred on Eberron came to be in the material world.It's a rough write-up, but a good seed, I think. It deals at least with the lawful inhabitants of Dolurrh, and being lawful, they would honor a valid contract. The failure of any lawful duty falls upon the Amnizu, and thus he is the focus of their punishment. It also deals with the question of "where do their bodies come from?" as well as why they are not attacked by the whirling blades. (Although nothing is actually said clearly of souls becoming shades. It says visitors, implying those who arrive there temporarily via spells, etc. Either way, it remains a non-issue.) Thus, the only unsatisfied beings in the arrangement are the Nalfeshnee (and the one unfortunate Amnizu), but I doubt the Marut would allow them to interfere with a valid contract, apart from capturing souls before they are found by the Remmanon. So, the original question stands... is there anything stopping inter-planar travel that does not involve the material world? The only issue that comes to mind is, why then do the Quori not plane shift to another plane, and then shift to Eberron. Also similar for the Dealkyr. Maybe the Remmanon must stop over in Eberron first, but Eberron does not rebirth spirits as Shavarath does. Like I said, it is a seed. I'll have to see where it goes.
Rerecros 07-23-07, 12:03 AM	You can house rule however you like, but I do not particularly like your explanation. First twenty years ago? these are outsiders, deal with at least centuries, if not vast eons :P It's like the marut own a store, then hired some Amnizu to work it, he leaves and when he comes back the Amnizu took all the merchendise and kept the profits for themsleves, and they're all like, "Ha, we signed a contract". Marut aren't exactly the balanced judge type of LN, they're more like the unstoppable killing machine type of LN. Also I don't see how you are getting the whole "Repentant Martyr" out of the hellbred, there's still no mechanic that allows them to repent, which I thought was the point of all this. I assume when a hellbred dies (which would be quite often on Shavarath), they just reapear in Dolugh, no fuss, no fowl. If you are seriously suggesting that they would be reborn on shavarath then the war there would be over quick, because while the demon and archon populations would be fixed, the devil's numbers would expland exponentially, they would win quickly. Needing only a grain of sand to tip the scales in the first place.
ksbsnowowl 07-23-07, 08:09 AM	First twenty years ago? these are outsiders, deal with at least centuries, if not vast eons :PI just picked a number. It could be anything. I merely picked a recent number to explain why hellbred are not widespread anywhere yet other than on Shavarath. And the increased number of people dying, and potentially getting raised from the dead, would logically have increased somewhat during the Last War, thus spurring the Amnizu to accept the offer of a dimensional lock prison. It's like the marut own a store, then hired some Amnizu to work it, he leaves and when he comes back the Amnizu took all the merchendise and kept the profits for themsleves, and they're all like, "Ha, we signed a contract".And in a lawful society, where would recompense for the storeowner come from? It would be paid by the individual who sold all the mechandise. Not from the people who legally purchased things from the store. It never stipulates anywhere other than the Amnizu entry in the FCII the nature of why souls must be kept on the plane. The 'law' as it were could be "we must keep the souls of mortals on Dolurrh," rather than "souls of mortals must remain on Dolurrh." It is a subtle difference, but it is a difference. The former is supported by the Amnizu's entry. Perhaps I've not looked thoroughly enough, but I've not seen anything that shows the latter to be the case. Perhaps the contract thing is a bit off, but the Amnizu role in the grand scheme of things is pretty spot-on. Per the FCII's entry for Amnizu in Eberron, "Amnizus are native to Dolurrh, it is their duty to ensure that those interred there remain forever. They are especially watchful for planar travelers, tracking their progress and making certain they don't liberate any of their charges." In general they would be loath to let any soul escape from Dolurrh, but if they are given increasing pressure from their overseers, I could see how one might make the proposed mistake. Marut aren't exactly the balanced judge type of LN, they're more like the unstoppable killing machine type of LN.Despite their intelligence, one could say the same of Pit Fiends in typical D&D, yet Pit Fiends serve the role of judge there... Also I don't see how you are getting the whole "Repentant Martyr" out of the hellbred, there's still no mechanic that allows them to repent, which I thought was the point of all this.True, it is no longer a "salvation for the soul in the afterlife" type of repentance. It is more of a "I agreed to fight for the devils? How could I have chosen this? The blood of too many angels stains my hands and my heart. I've been traded in service to someone on the material realm; now is my chance to fight against the devils who would trick more souls into their unholy war..." Also, keep in mind that they still have very little of the memories of their former selves, that includes their 'visit' to Dolurrh. They remember agreeing to the offer and being whisked away from somewhere, and finding themselves standing amidst a legion of devils - and really not much else. I assume when a hellbred dies (which would be quite often on Shavarath), they just reapear in Dolugh, no fuss, no fowl.They are still mortal souls. When they die, they go straight to Dolurrh. When they die, the soul is immediately gone; there is no soul remaining for Shavarath to rebirth. Them being reborn the first time is only because someone went to the trouble to get the soul and 'physically' bring it to Shavarath. It's similar to someone going to Dolurrh via a Gate to retrieve a soul while it is remote. Once the soul is brought back to the material plane, nothing more is needed to resurrect them - the soul automatically binds with the body in that case. Shavarath merely does what it does - rebirth a soul - when it is presented with the unusual prospect of a mortal soul being on the plane.