Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gevouden 06-04-07, 04:39 AM	After having read the Silver Flame section of the main book, my friends and I have interpreted this religion differently than may have been intended . And I just wanted to find out if anyone else got this impression , or if this what was intended . I see the Silver Flame ( the religion ) as misled , if not evil. Every time I read the entries regarding it , I feel as though I`m reading old stories about Nazi Germany , the Spanish Inquisition, and the Catholic crusades all rolled into one . They look to me as being wholly about hate and ethnic purity (weather intended or not) , while maintaining a facade of holy righteousness. Your thoughts?
Shady314 06-04-07, 05:01 AM	Um no. In fact they are one of the very few organizations in Eberron actually dedicated to doing good and stopping evil. Nazi Germany?? This is a new one. I'm not seeing the parallels at all. Please elaborate. Everyone is not only allowed but encouraged to worship the Flame. They also follow the Code of Galifar which means from a legal standpoint in rights of their citizens they're on the same footing as Breland and Aundair. Karnath is basically under martial law so they're actually closer to Nazi Germany. The Inquisition and Crusades? I can only assume you are reffering to the Lycanthrope Purge. Which was nothing like the Crusades at all. It's similarities to the Inquisition are few and far between. I don't recall torture being a means by which they fought the lycanthropes. Nor did they interrogate or condemn them for any sort of "impurity" they condemned them for carrying a terrible and deadly disease. Which they did. Also interesting is that the Silver Flame does NOT accept forced conversions. This may shed some light on it actually... http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050404a Canon straight from the Eberron creator about the Lycanthrope Purge. Please feel free to expand and elaborate on your mistaken assumptions so I may continue to set your mind at ease. A few people have from time to time argued this and I have yet to grow bored with it so I'm happy to discuss it. My personal theory is people dislike the Catholic Church, see the superficial similarities the SF has with them and decide the SF IS the Catholic Church. A close look however will reveal the flaw in this line of thinking.
Nived 06-04-07, 05:57 AM	My personal theory is that, at least for many gamers here in the United States we've been kinda raised to believe that Theocracy is automatically a bad thing and react negatively to it on some kind of subconsious level. Thane is a theocracy. A theocracy based on a good, just, and noble religion, but its a theocracy, and theocracy is bad. So Thrane must be bad. So we automatically look for reasons why its bad, and focus of the various corrupt parts of the CotSF, even if that is a minority. They give us enough reason to villify the Church of the Silver Flame. On these boards I see plenty of attempts to demonize the Church of the Silver Flame, A church based on doing good, and spreading good. At the same time I see people trying to put the Blood of Vol on a pedistal. Not that the followers of the religion are automatically evil, but the core of the faith does believe that the path to immortality is to kill the gods and one of the best weapons is the undead. We treat it as a mistunderstood and persecuted religion. That we have a tendacy to want to see the Silver Flame tarnished while we continue to look for ways to make the Blood of Vol (at least those parts ignorant of the Lich Vol and her true motives) heroic I don't know. Granted one of my favorite parts of Eberron is the tendancy for things to not be black and white, however some people have a tendacy to not want to make things gray.... but rather they take things that were white in other settings and make them black, and vice versa.
Shady314 06-04-07, 06:01 AM	Aerenal is basically a theocracy but people have no problems with it. :) It's probably a mixture of both our theories.
Gevouden 06-04-07, 06:30 AM	I will concede to the points you have made , but only while interjecting with this: not all Lycanthropes are evil. Take Werebears and boars , neither of the lycantrope subspecies have an evil alignment , and were as yet still killed off in the purge . I view this as an ethnic cleansing .
Wizardman 06-04-07, 06:41 AM	The thing about tCotSF is that its biggest press comes from its controversies (or its screws-ups). Now, as far as the Spanish Inquisition goes: there some some parallels there, but that's it. The Puritan sect of the Church is far more extreme than most other sects, but even then their extremism is at best highly unusual. Also, the Puritans are strongest in Aundair, and it should be noted that despite their strength, Flamekeep's cathedral remains devoid of the Purified, so they hardly have Aurala's blessing. It must also be noted that the reasons that the Puritans dominate the Aundairian church is because Aundair was hardest hit by the lycanthropes. As for the Purge, it began as an ugly-but-necessary movement that spiralled out of control and hurt innocent people. Even then, many church members went against orders to do the right thing, such protecting shifters and helping good and neutral lycanthropes flee to Lammania (and in some cases possibly even young evil lycanthropes). Concerning racial purity: so far as canon goes that is only in Thrane. Even then, the racists are the most extreme of an already fanatical group, so their attitude is very much an aberration. It is true that humans have a disproportionate amount of power in the Thranish Church, but there is no evidence of focused anti-nonhuman bigotry on part of the Church as a whole. We have little information about the Church outside of Thrane, so we don't know if this condition is endemic or if it is peculiar to Thrane. I also don't see where the comparisons to Nazi Germany come from. Granted, the church has seized secular power in Thrane, but that was as much by the will of the people as through any ambition of their own (though to be fair, any High Cardinal Krozens of the time would have been turning cartwheels). Even then, there are a number of people who are very devout Purified and sincerely believe that usurping the monarchy was a mistake. I have to agree with Shady314. The Church of the Silver Flame is not perfect, but there is nothing in canon to suggest that the whole body is corrupt. An intellectually honest Purified must feel that he or she is different from the non-Purified, but the ideal Purified expends infinitely more energy watching out for personal corruption and/or combating the many aspects of evil than in flaunting his/her own purity. I'm not saying that there is no flaunting, because there most definitely is, but there isn't supposed to be. Aerenal is basically a theocracy but people have no problems with it. :) It's probably a mixture of both our theories. - Shady314 Aerenal hasn't gotten anywhere near the attention that the Five Nations have gotten. Also, Aerenal is not an explicit theocracy; the Sibling Kigs' degree of autonomy is left up to the DM. I will concede to the points you have made , but only while interjecting with this: not all Lycanthropes are evil. Take Werebears and boars , neither of the lycantrope subspecies have an evil alignment , and were as yet still killed off in the purge . I view this as an ethnic cleansing . - Gevouden There is a problem with this conclusion: in Eberron, and this comes down from Hellcow himself, all brands of lycanthropy have good, neutral, and evil strains. There are naturally evil werebears, and naturally good werewolves. That is one of the reasons that the Purge was as pervasive as it was. There was no non-magical way to tell whether a given lycanthrope was evil or not, and over time many of those who were able to check lost their inclination to do so. I'm not saying that the innocent did not suffer, because my oh my they did. I'm just saying that it wasn't quite as easy as it would be in a different setting. I wonder how different things would be if Hellcow's full view on Eberronian lycanthropy was spelled out in the ECS. I know that I believed that standard alignment rules held true until it was pointed out to me that they weren't.
yrogerg 06-04-07, 06:44 AM	I will concede to the points you have made , but only while interjecting with this: not all Lycanthropes are evil. Take Werebears and boars , neither of the lycantrope subspecies have an evil alignment , and were as yet still killed off in the purge . I view this as an ethnic cleansing . That is not true in Eberron. There is no way to tell what strains of lycanthropy are Evil based on the base creature in Eberron; you can have Good Werewolves and Wererats, and Evil Werebears and Wereboars in the setting. However, given that the Evil strains tend to be the ones running around attacking people (creating more Evil lycanthropes in the process), and it's pretty clear why the CotSF would conclude that lycanthropy was a dangerous, evil curse, and perhaps even that Good lycanthropes didn't exist.
Wizardman 06-04-07, 07:03 AM	That is not true in Eberron. There is no way to tell what strains of lycanthropy are Evil based on the base creature in Eberron; you can have Good Werewolves and Wererats, and Evil Werebears and Wereboars in the setting. However, given that the Evil strains tend to be the ones running around attacking people (creating more Evil lycanthropes in the process), and it's pretty clear why the CotSF would conclude that lycanthropy was a dangerous, evil curse, and perhaps even that Good lycanthropes didn't exist. Adding on to this, lycanthropy radically alters the victim's personality, and I'm not just talking in terms of alignment. Afflicted lycanthropes become more bestial than they were before their affliction. An evil-but-cultured aristocrat could become a good boor after being bitten. It doesn't matter if the victim manages to retain/regain his or her alignment after being bitten. So long as they are afflicted, they are different. With that being the case, even evil-to-good victims were viewed with horror.
Nived 06-04-07, 07:36 AM	Aerenal is basically a theocracy but people have no problems with it. :) It's probably a mixture of both our theories. Kinda sorta, Aerenal is it's own thing. Yes its a theocracy... but considering their 'gods' are their grandparents... that you know are still walking around and talking... well, that's an entirely different vibe.
Shady314 06-04-07, 08:11 AM	I will concede to the points you have made , but only while interjecting with this: not all Lycanthropes are evil. Take Werebears and boars , neither of the lycantrope subspecies have an evil alignment , and were as yet still killed off in the purge . I view this as an ethnic cleansing . As has been pointed out and what was in the link I gave you is that lycanthropy is different in Eberron. The strain no longer matters when it comes to alignment. Add in that it's really just evil lycanthropes that attack and hurt other people to spread their strain which forces their victims into evil killing machines like them and you've got a recipe for calamity. Hmmmm evil beasts attacking and hurting innocent people forcing them to their beliefs.... Why is the SF seen as the evil inquisition types? :) As for ethnic cleansing... I suppose cleansing fits but ethnic does not. They didn't target them based on race, nationality or anything of that sort. It was did you have the disease or not? Rather empirical actually. I guess you could say their race was werebear or something... still it's a rather loaded term that using for this cheapens real atrocities. It was a cleansing (It is called the PURGE so that's not like a big cover up ;)) but Eberron is much better off thanks to it. That couldn't be said about real world purges. But at the time lycanthropy was a serious threat to Khorvaire and the only ones that took it upon themselves to end it was the SF. Some people went too far (shocking in a time of war I know! :)) but the evil lycanthropes did start it. The SF just finished it even though it took a lot of blood, time and money to make other people safer. How many organizations do that in Eberron? I also have never imagined the lycanthrope purge was a bunch of silver flame templars coming to the homes of a good werebears as they ate dinner with their families and killing them. Which book was it that had the monument/story about a famous Silver Flame Templar ripped apart by a pack of wererats? (S:CoT?) It was more like that.
Syltorian 06-04-07, 08:14 AM	Read the Dragonshard (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050404a) on the topic again. The lycanthropic purge was necessary, even if it went out of control: The villagers of Aundair and the Reaches were confronted with a multiplication of lycanthropes, many of whom had suddenly become evil (and remember, as has been said, Eberron does away with alignment guidelines except for outsiders, so there are evil wereboars - and good werewolves, for that matter). And evil lycanthropes were always a majority. Afflicted lycanthropes spread the curse, and the curse affects and corrputs the soul. Even if it grants a good alignment, it still changes the soul, which the Silver Flame sees as polluting it; they want a true conversion, not a forced one. But never mind: the lycanthropes that gave rise to the curse were themselves drawn to evil, and the soul is not only manipulated in ways it should not be, it is actually pulled towards evil. Aundair scholars believed it was the work of fiends. The Shifter Moonspeakers themselves speak of the involvement of the Unseen Moon, associated with evil in their folklore. I repeat: the Shifters themselves saw it as Evil! So what the Flame saw was a sudden and explosive increase of a curse, and entire villages being either massacred by man-wolves or turned into abominations. In my campaign, there are still ruins of villages destroyed by the lycanthropes, and the people are grateful towards the Flame for helping them out. Hardly anyone in the Reaches back then did not know someone, was not related to someone who died or got infected in the lycanthropic attack. The Flame was confronted with a threat. With a crisis situation. While villages were infected or massacred, people torn apart by friends. What would you have the Flame do? Talk to the lycanthropes, tell them to be good, and bring along some biscuits? The dragonshard goes on to say that the battle was brutal for both sides. Lycanthropes can hide well, are stronger than regular humanoids, more mobile, and need only to get one bite in. The Flame must have suffered tremendous casualties in order to save Eldeen villagers. And they risked more than their lives, they risked their souls, should they become infected. A corrupt and evil Church would not have bothered to risk themselves in this way. And the lycanthropes "fanned the puritans' paranoia towards the shifters." The Church did evil things, yes, but they were actively tricked at this point. It took some hundreds of deaths, but they did stop as soon as they saw their errors. It wasn't an ethnic cleansing. It was a desperate mission to stop an attack of overwhelming and evil forces. Some unfortunates were caught between the fronts, and the Church did not always understand what they were doing. Some of their templars were overzealous (or perhaps simply having panic reactions); but overall, the mission was one of good.
Shady314 06-04-07, 08:26 AM	Kinda sorta, Aerenal is it's own thing. Yes its a theocracy... but considering their 'gods' are their grandparents... that you know are still walking around and talking... well, that's an entirely different vibe. That's what I'm saying. It's a different "vibe" even though at it's core it's a Theocracy. People seem to put together SF=Catholic Church and then Catholic Church+Theocracy. What's interesting is that the two religions on Eberron with physical embodiments of their gods are both theocracies. Guess it makes sense.
Nived 06-04-07, 08:27 AM	While no one knows how lycanthropy began, most know of the purge that almost brought it to an end. Around 800 YK, the power of the curse began to grow. The scholars of Aundair sought an answer in planar conjunctions or the influence of unknown fiends, while deep in the Eldeen Reaches shifter moonspeakers bemoaned the growing power of the unseen moon. Evil lycanthropes -- always the most numerous of the shapeshifters -- became even more vicious, and many good and neutral lycanthropes were corrupted and drawn down to the darkness. Afflicted lycanthropes gained the ability to pass the curse to their own victims, allowing lycanthropy to spread with terrifying speed. By the early years of the ninth century, packs of werewolves were roaming across western Khorvaire and wererats had established warrens beneath the greatest cities of the age. Farmers lived in fear of wolves that walked like humans. What was once a superstition used to frighten children was now horrifying reality. Bolding and underlining mine. This paragraph is from a Dragonshard article, this is official and canon. Something was causing evil lycanthropes to go nuts, and that same thing was turning good lycathropes evil. At the same time afflicted lycanthropes (which in 3.5 can't spread the curse) started spreading the curse. Yes it was terrible, yes innocent people suffered. Tell me this though, how many households do you have to see where a child who became cursed tore apart his family, how many villiages do you need to see where every man woman and child has been killed, eaten or turned, how many before you set your jaw and try to stop it however you can. This was a plague, an epidemic, it had to be stopped. Were innocent people, good lycathropes that haddn't gone mad, innocent shifters, people who were just trying to protect an infected love one killed wrongly? Yes. However, more would have died had Aundair (that's right, the Church didn't fight alone) and the Church of the Silver Flame done nothing.
BrokenJade 06-04-07, 08:57 AM	the way i see it is that with any religion you are going to have your nuts, and sometimes these nuts are the ones in power. I saw more of a paralell with the KKK than the nazis, the example i am using is the fantatic group the Torch Bearers. Who believe that eberrron was created for Humans and non-humans should be put down
DragoonDarkfire 06-04-07, 11:10 PM	You need to think of the Knights of Thrane and the church not like preachers or religious fanatics. Keith himself has stated that most worshipers are tolerant and even compassionate with good religions. Most develop a sense that theirs is a true cause but they accept that the good deities of the Soverghn Host are an equally good force. The knights of Thrane aren't like the Christian Church. They don't believe in a higher sentient being that controls their lives (The voice of the Flame they believe to be a human who has merged with the Flame). They believe the Flame to be a powerful force that fight and opposes evil in all forms. The Silver Flame and the Knights of Thrane are the closest thing Eberron has to Jedi's.
From_Khyber 06-05-07, 05:28 PM	They believe the Flame to be a powerful force that fight and opposes evil in all forms. They fight and oppose what they view as evil (and also what they think the Keeper of Flame views as evil, I can only assume). They may well be fighting an evil, that instinctively helps a greater good. An evil can sometimes turn out to be a necessary evil.
Cifer 06-05-07, 06:27 PM	Yes, the Silver Flame can easily be interpreted as a zealous religion killing everything that's not "pure" enough for them. Guess what the BoVines (is the term bovine reserved for our great Lord and Master, the infernal one or can it be used here too? *g*) are telling their people. As others said, the purge of course targeted innocents, but it was necessary nevertheless. At the same time I see people trying to put the Blood of Vol on a pedistal. Not that the followers of the religion are automatically evil, but the core of the faith does believe that the path to immortality is to kill the gods and one of the best weapons is the undead. We treat it as a mistunderstood and persecuted religion. As long as Vol doesn't enter the picture, that's exactly what it is. Apart from Aerenal belief and some other religions, there's no telling that undead are Evil in the "really, really bad for everyone" sense. And defeating Death itself for the world? Yes, I think that qualifies as pretty good. Karnath is basically under martial law so they're actually closer to Nazi Germany. Always remember Rule 6. There will be NO referring to King Kaius as Mein Führer or goose stepping to his orders. (http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/Forgotten_Freedom:1_1001)
Luis_Dragunov 06-05-07, 07:25 PM	This is what you get when use christian ranks in a D&D religion.
Psionycx 06-05-07, 10:21 PM	You need to think of the Knights of Thrane and the church not like preachers or religious fanatics. Keith himself has stated that most worshipers are tolerant and even compassionate with good religions. Most develop a sense that theirs is a true cause but they accept that the good deities of the Soverghn Host are an equally good force. The knights of Thrane aren't like the Christian Church. They don't believe in a higher sentient being that controls their lives (The voice of the Flame they believe to be a human who has merged with the Flame). They believe the Flame to be a powerful force that fight and opposes evil in all forms. The Silver Flame and the Knights of Thrane are the closest thing Eberron has to Jedi's. This doesn't align with the statements made in Five Nations (especially the bottom of page 131), and Faiths of Eberron (especially pages 65 and 66 as regards the Sovereign Host). Flamites do apparently believe that the Flame is a conscious deity capable of communicating It's desires (via the Voice of the Flame and the Keeper) and that it does supplant the Sovereigns as the primary focus of Good in the world. The obvious issue is that despite this belief, the Flame is really a force and not a god. It is certainly more directly manifest in the world than the focus of any other religion on Eberron except for the Undying Court. But it is still an abstract power, albeit one with a tangible manifestation. Consequently it is what people choose to make of it. The Flame is Lawful Good, just as the Sovereign Host is Neutral Good (as a pantheon). But as an abstract power it cannot turn off the flow of divine power to It's worshippers. Tira Miron may exist within the Flame but she cannot control it's distribution of divine power to anyone or penalize clergy that violate alignment rules like a god in other settings. Thus Flamite clergy are not any more compelled to be Lawful and/or Good than anyone else. Worshippers of the Flame can do anything they can personally rationalize. King Thalin broke the Galifar succession and plunged the continent into war, an act that was manifestly neither Lawful nor Good, because he wanted the throne and he was able to convince himself that he was doing it for the Flame. The Flame itself remains a Lawful Good force. That doesn't however guarantee the conduct of It's followers.
Revvecor 06-05-07, 10:35 PM	[QUOTE=As long as Vol doesn't enter the picture, that's exactly what it is. Apart from Aerenal belief and some other religions, there's no telling that undead are Evil in the "really, really bad for everyone" sense. And defeating Death itself for the world? Yes, I think that qualifies as pretty good.] This would an interesting situation: If a cleric of the keeper were to find out the concept of "overcoming death" he would be insulted and concerned. He may in fact be forced to stop the BoV at any cost. This would raise the question of who is more evil?
Psionycx 06-05-07, 11:11 PM	This would an interesting situation: If a cleric of the keeper were to find out the concept of "overcoming death" he would be insulted and concerned. He may in fact be forced to stop the BoV at any cost. This would raise the question of who is more evil? Who says that all followers of the Blood of Vol are evil? Who says that all followers of the Dark Six are evil? Just as their are Neutral and Evil followers of the Sovereign Host or the Silver Flame there are Neutral and Good followers at least the BoV (at least Keith said so on another thread once), and likely the Dark Six as well since many turned to them for hope of a better afterlife during the Last War. A typical rank-in-file follower of BoV merely believes that their faith is a path to defeat the scourge of death in the world and a pointless afterlife in Dolurrh. For many people that would seem like a benign goal. Yes, it would probably annoy worshippers of the Keeper. But so do followers of the Sovereign Host, the Silver Flame, the Undying Court, etc... Few religions on Eberron care much for other religions. But a follower of the Keeper with a more benevolent bent might feel that the BoV are being deceived and denied the Keeper's "mercy" (a supposed escape from Dolurrh) by the teachings of their "false religion".
Revvecor 06-05-07, 11:19 PM	Who says that all followers of the Blood of Vol are evil? But a follower of the Keeper with a more benevolent bent might feel that the BoV are being deceived and denied the Keeper's "mercy" (a supposed escape from Dolurrh) by the teachings of their "false religion". I am actually playing with a TN cleric of the keeper, who believes that all other religions are wrong and that the keeper is the only true religion. He has already converted about 12 people to his faith.
OctaviusIII 06-05-07, 11:30 PM	This would an interesting situation: If a cleric of the keeper were to find out the concept of "overcoming death" he would be insulted and concerned. He may in fact be forced to stop the BoV at any cost. This would raise the question of who is more evil? The problem with alignments is that in their practice, they really come down in ethics to other-centered and personally-centered. Or, ethical egoism (see Ayn Rand) for Evil, virtue ethics for Good, or something like that. Ethics are so gray, though, that entire branches of ethics like utilitarianism really fall under Neutral, even though within each ethic itself there is good and evil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_and_evil). I actually think the comparison to the Catholic Church is somewhat more accurate than has been painted. Catholics get a bad rap for the Crusades but people rarely the Crusades in the same hand as Mother Theresa. Both stem from the same theology and both looked to the Pope for guidance. I think that the best thing said about this was something a Christian recently said when asked what their worst sin was. To paraphrase, "It depends - do you mean today or do you mean in my life? I sin every day. Y'know, the Bible says that all fall short of the glory of God. Only by the grace of God do I have good days." That sentiment, that everyone has evil tendencies and does evil, means that everything mortals do will go wrong at some point, and momentum is on the side of evil. How does that apply to the Silver Flame? The Flame's theology is meant to be rigorous but ultimately to put yourself in alignment with the Flame itself. I think that there would be a number of sermons from unpopular preachers quoting the Whisperings of the Flame that caution against pride and against arrogance. Probably the core of the teaching is we're all imperfect and we're all going for something that we cannot attain. As for hating on the Flame - people dislike religions that discuss good, morality, and evil, or those that have rules regarding morality. Make rules about the mind, though, and you're golden. Westerners hate on "organized religion" but don't hate on Buddhism. I think as for the Blood of Vol, it's ethical egoist and it's an underdog - what feels better than cheering on for the little guy that tells you to enjoy your passions?
Psionycx 06-06-07, 12:02 AM	Well consider that there is the religion of the Silver Flame and the political Church of the Silver Flame. Again the Catholic analogy holds up here. Many times throughout it's history the Church has taken ostensibly theological positions for what were actually political reasons. This was especially true in Middle Ages and in the politics of Europe (the Frankish kingdoms, the Holy Roman Empire, etc). In the midst of this you have people who may believe in the religion but disagree with the politics. And politics in religion can lead to a degradation of respect for religion. Many Europeans I know don't respect the Catholic Church anymore because they say it's like a political party and not a religion. It may feel that way in such close proximity to the Vatican as compared to further afield. It's hard to say. Likewise, not all Flamites live in or near Flamekeep and not all are Thranes. Nationalism for Thrane runs strong in the Church because it is centered on Flamekeep, but not all followers of the Silver Flame are from Thrane. Races like the Shulasskar and some of the orcs of the Demon Wastes revere the Flame but couldn't care less about what pronouncements come out of Flamekeep. So just as you have devout Christians, and even Catholics, who do not take every word that falls from the Pope's lips seriously, you may have "Protestant" Flamites who believe that their duty to the Flame is to promote Good and fight Evil in the world, not necessarily to advance the political power of Thrane or the Church. Flamites in other nations for example may see their faith as separate from nationalism for Thrane or obedience to cardinals who blatantly pursue a pro-Thrane agenda. Case-in-point: the Exorcist of the Silver Flame PrC accepts characters of any Good alignment, not just Lawful ones. Neutral Good and Chaotic Good exorcists may opt to ignore directives from Flamekeep that they see as political or unrelated to battling supernatural evil and go pursue whatever goals they think is right. They're still commited to Good, just not necessarily obedient to Law.
DragoonDarkfire 06-06-07, 12:06 AM	This doesn't align with the statements made in Five Nations (especially the bottom of page 131), and Faiths of Eberron (especially pages 65 and 66 as regards the Sovereign Host). I'm useing Keiths interpretation of this mainly because I prefer it. Flamites do apparently believe that the Flame is a conscious deity capable of communicating It's desires (via the Voice of the Flame and the Keeper) and that it does supplant the Sovereigns as the primary focus of Good in the world. You are aware that Tira Miron (often considered to be the Voice of the Flame) was a worshiper of Dol Arrah correct? Personally I would feel that such arrogant views would be the demon within the flame subtly trying to corrupt the church. I believe this because we know that Tira Miron worships Dol Arrah and a Couatl wouldn't care what Deity a person worshiped. If it was willing to oppose the forces of evil then it will gladly lend it's service and power for the greater good. The obvious issue is that despite this belief, the Flame is really a force and not a god. It is certainly more directly manifest in the world than the focus of any other religion on Eberron except for the Undying Court. But it is still an abstract power, albeit one with a tangible manifestation. Yea that's what I said and from what I read on another Eberron board, said by Keith himself, he believes the same thing. Consequently it is what people choose to make of it. The Flame is Lawful Good, just as the Sovereign Host is Neutral Good (as a pantheon). But as an abstract power it cannot turn off the flow of divine power to It's worshippers. Tira Miron may exist within the Flame but she cannot control it's distribution of divine power to anyone or penalize clergy that violate alignment rules like a god in other settings. I don't think any god/deity/force has the ability to control the power granted to it's clerics. Whatever force grants powers from the Soverghn Host/Dark Six/ Silver Flame or Undying Court isn't in control of it's worshipers flow to that power. One of the mysteries of Eberron is the question. Could a corrupt priest merely have gained the favor of an evil equivalent (such as a corrupt priest of Aureon gaining favor with the Shadow) or is it something completely different? Thus Flamite clergy are not any more compelled to be Lawful and/or Good than anyone else. Worshippers of the Flame can do anything they can personally rationalize. King Thalin broke the Galifar succession and plunged the continent into war, an act that was manifestly neither Lawful nor Good, because he wanted the throne and he was able to convince himself that he was doing it for the Flame. Yea I don't see what you're saying. Are you suggesting that the Flame automatically makes a person good? Cause I honestly don't believe that and have never suggested it. Hell even in Forgotten Realms where gods are real and come down for tea every Sunday a cleric can fall from power into evil or heresy. Only difference in Eberron is that they don't lose any of their powers. The Flame itself remains a Lawful Good force. That doesn't however guarantee the conduct of It's followers. Yea of course. But what this person suggested that the Flame was an evil force acting in the name of good. Which is not the case.
Psionycx 06-06-07, 12:36 AM	Well that's a perception thing. If one believes that religion follows a real deity then one attaches a certain accountability to the deity for It's worshipper's actions. Evil acts committed by a worshipper (or especially by clergy) of a deity reflect on how the religion is perceived. So for example, during (and after) the Last War, many people outside of Thrane may see the Silver Flame as a greedy, grasping deity that drives It's worshippers to to commit heinous acts for It's benefit. Believing that the Flame is real, not not merely an abstract concept, it is easy to assign blame to it for anything it's followers do. Remember that nobody in Eberron is accustomed to the level of tangible intervention from deities that someone on Oerth or Toril is used to. So they don't really expect the god to reach out and smack down wayward clerics by denying them spells. But they do believe that clergy represent the will of the deity or religion they serve and so it is possible to assign misdirected blame. So one could argue that the Flame cannot be "misguided" or even Evil because It is simply a force, albeit an aligned one. It is divine power but not conscious intelligence, much like the il-Yannah worshipped by the kalashtar. But because the Flame has a physical manifestation in Flamekeep, and because a human spirit (Tira Miron) is caught up in that manifestation and able to communicate (if only with one person) from inside it, it is easy for people to anthropomorphise It into a "god". And if It's a god and It can communicate It's will, then what It's followers do must be a result of It's intent. It's the same problem as with Christians that go around beating and killing gays or Muslims that blow things up. The action is really their own, and not an act of God. But people may get angry at God because His followers committed the action in his name.
Cifer 06-06-07, 03:21 AM	You are aware that Tira Miron (often considered to be the Voice of the Flame) was a worshiper of Dol Arrah correct? Personally I would feel that such arrogant views would be the demon within the flame subtly trying to corrupt the church. You are aware that Jesus was a jew? That analogy seems to fit pretty well: Tira is the founder of a new religion that wants to supplant an old one, essentially saying "Yeah, you did well, but now we take over to end the whole thing".
Hellcow 06-06-07, 02:32 PM	This doesn't align with the statements made in Five Nations (especially the bottom of page 131), and Faiths of Eberron (especially pages 65 and 66 as regards the Sovereign Host). Neither of which I worked on. Of course, a canon sourcebook is a canon sourcebook, but personally I do things differently. I am absolutely opposed to the idea that the Church of the Silver Flame believes in the Flame as an anthropomorphic deity (in any way) or that they believe that their efforts will eventually eliminate evil and produce a "paradise" in the world. The concept of the Silver Flame as an abstract force was a key element of it when I was first developing the setting. The Silver Flame was (metagaming here) born from the sacrifice of the couatl race. It is a spiritual force that binds demons which cannot be destroyed. Key point? Cannot be destroyed. You can never destroy evil; you can only hold it at bay, seek to inspire the misled to a more righteous path, and protect the innocent when evil rises again. It's an eternal struggle, and one you do not because you think it will end in your lifetime, but simply because it's the right thing to do. So by my view, people believe that the Silver Flame is an aggregate mass of the most noble souls of Eberron. Those who serve it hope to prove worthy enough to join the Flame and strengthen its light after death. While not a sentient deity in the traditional sense, the Flame is a source of light and inspiration, and the Voice of the Silver Flame is supposed to be the conduit that helps humanity understand its messages. This is why it needs a Voice - because on its own, the Flame doesn't speak. Tira isn't a god; she is an interface to the human spirit, a voice that can guide us to the light. As such, I do see the followers of the Flame as having more in common with Jedi than modern monotheistic religions. They believe that there is a force out there that is innately good; as opposed to being tied to all living things, they believe that it is made up from the life force of noble beings who have passed on. They believe that this force empowers them to fight injustice and evil. And they believe that there is darkness in the world that cannot be destroyed. The Dark Side of the Force is always out there; you may beat the current adepts, but new Jedi can always fall, and evil can always rise again. Likewise, the fact that Tira was a paladin of Dol Arrah before she was called by the Silver Flame was an intentional effort to show that the two were not completely exclusive. The Silver Flame encourages far more direct action than the worship of the Sovereigns. But in my opinion, a typical worshipper of the Silver Flame will respect a paladin of Dol Arrah. He may believe that the paladin is misguided and would serve the world better by following the path of the Silver Flame; but he will acknowledge that the paladin's goals are noble, as Tira's were in the past. Tira Miron may exist within the Flame but she cannot control it's distribution of divine power to anyone or penalize clergy that violate alignment rules like a god in other settings. Absolutely correct, and I'll note that the question of whether Tira still exists at all is open to debate. There is a Lawful Good force out there, it holds demons at bay, there are couatl who serve it - everything else is up in the air. With that said, I personally do maintain some code of conduct rules. In my opinion it's all a question of whether the cleric actually BELIEVES he is acting in the interests of the faith. He may before an evil act in the name of good, but does he believe it's a good act? If so, fine. If not, he either shouldn't be a divine caster, or he should simply be getting his divine power from another source (it's possible this could happen without him even realizing it!). There's a different between a corrupt cleric who actively and knowlingly seeks to abuse his followers and one who does things which can be objectively seen as running against his faith, but which he believes to be completely justified by his beliefs. King Thalin broke the Galifar succession and plunged the continent into war, an act that was manifestly neither Lawful nor Good, because he wanted the throne and he was able to convince himself that he was doing it for the Flame. Exactly.
Euangelion 06-06-07, 02:32 PM	I wish that whoever wrote the chapter of Thrane in 5 Nations hadn't put in the racism stuff. The CotSF has a bad enough rep anyway without needing that added on to it. Frankly, it doesn't even make sense unless there's some doctrine that human souls are stronger than other souls, and thus preferable for adding to the Flame, but there hasn't been anything like that that I've seen. Now, if you want to see a truly racist nation, look no further than Zilargo or Valenar. Basically, the evil side of the CotSF was played up to differentiate it from LG organizations in other settings, as one that is deeply flawed, yet still is LG.
Hellcow 06-06-07, 03:01 PM	They look to me as being wholly about hate and ethnic purity (weather intended or not) , while maintaining a facade of holy righteousness. I don't see it this way at all. Until Five Nations and the Silver Torch, I didn't see any aspect of "ethnic purity" in the Silver Flame, and while I'm willing to leave the Silver Torch in my game, it's certainly a radical sect with little support. The conflict between the shifters and the church was to a large degree engineered by evil lycanthropes and an act of desperation on the part of the church... and something many in the present day are deeply ashamed of. Others have already discussed the circumstances of the Purge. This, again, is supposed to be a situation without a black and white answer. Innocents died. The modern priests look to the past and question the deeds of their predecessors, wondering if there was a better way to do things. But it was a time of desperation and madness. If the Church had done nothing whatsoever, it would have resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of Aundairian peasants. The curse would have spread across the lands, and by the time it overtook Aundair, it might have been too late to stop it; all of Galifar could have been transformed into a savage wasteland. During the initial phase of the war, the power edge was on the side of the lycanthropes; set a 1st or 2nd-level warrior against a 1st or 2nd level lycanthrope in hybrid form and tell me where you'd lay your odds. Numbers and divine power helped the Silver Flame turn the tied, but only after suffering terrible losses. At this point, the lycanthropes were forced to act with greater subtlety, but that made them no less deadly... and they certainly took advantage of this to spread paranoia and terror among their enemies, turning allies against one another. At this point also the Aundairians were hungry for revenge. Many of the worst atrocities of the conflict weren't the work of templars from Thrane or Breland; they were the actions of new Aundairian converts, who sought vengeance for the kin that they'd lost and the decades of fear they'd endured. In my campaign, Aundair is the seat of the extremist Puritan movement for precisely this reason. Under the leadership of Jaela, the people of Thrane are more moderate. But the people of Aundair still remember the horrors, still memorize the lists of their ancestors killed in the time of darkness, still praise the Flame for giving them the strength to resist this evil. These Puritans view Jaela as soft and weak, refusing to face the evils in the world. THEY are certainly likely to be blinded by zeal and hate, to act rashly and to cause evil in the name of good. But in that, they're no different than the Order of the Emerald Claw - an extremist group whose actions are more aggressive and violent than those of their brethren, who have deviated from the core values of their faith. And looking to those core values, the faith of the Flame is not supposed to be spread by the sword. Steel and fire - the tools of the templar - are supposed to be reserved for supernatural evil, defending the innocent from undead, lycanthropes, demons, and the like. MORTAL evil - greed, hate, even the following of evil faiths - are supposed to be fought through inspiration and example, the tools of the minister and missionary. Yes, Thrane is a theocracy, and as such, most of its soldiers in the Last War were followers of the Flame. But there were followers of the Flame in Aundair, Breland, and Cyre who all fought Thrane. They weren't fighting for the FLAME; this was a war between mortals, between nations. Their faith remained pure, and they all sought to set an example for others, to protect the innocents of their nation, and so on. But for most, war and faith were two separate things. Many of the faithful who live beyond Thrane believe that the Theocracy is a mistake. They respect the spiritual authority of the Keeper, but believe that the church was never ment to hold secular power - that this is a distraction from its true mission and a cause of corruption (which it may well be). Key point, though: the transition of Thrane to Theocracy was accomplished by popular acclaim, not by the sword. The Silver Flame is a militant religion - but by the central cores of the faith, that might should be reserved to combat supernatural evil or to protect the innocent from harm. Certainly, those who are overzealous in their beliefs can be misled and pushed to aggressive action. But it's not an inherent principle of the faith; if anything, violence against humanoids is discouraged, as they are the "innocent" you're supposed to lead to the light. All along, the goal of Eberron has been to have shades of gray. In most settings, the Silver Flame would be unquestionably good and the Blood of Vol unquestionably evil. But humans are complex beings. Hence the Silver Flame has performed evil acts, and followers of the Blood of Vol can believe that their faith serves the greater good. But I agree that many people latch on to the dark elements of the Silver Flame and try to make the entire thing black -which overlooks the fact that most of its followers live by the principles of charity and compassion, seeking to help those in need and to overcome mortal evil with inspiration instead of force.
Hellcow 06-06-07, 03:02 PM	I wish that whoever wrote the chapter of Thrane in 5 Nations hadn't put in the racism stuff... Frankly, it doesn't even make sense unless there's some doctrine that human souls are stronger than other souls, and thus preferable for adding to the Flame, but there hasn't been anything like that that I've seen. Agreed. All noble souls strengthen the Flame. I'm fine with it existing as a fringe sect because people are inherently flawed; I'm sure that this sect DOES believe that human souls are innately stronger. But I certainly treat it as a radical fringe sect.
Hellcow 06-06-07, 04:01 PM	So for example, during (and after) the Last War, many people outside of Thrane may see the Silver Flame as a greedy, grasping deity that drives It's worshippers to to commit heinous acts for It's benefit. Believing that the Flame is real, not not merely an abstract concept, it is easy to assign blame to it for anything it's followers do. I've just never seen anyone treating the Flame this way. In my opinion they'd blame the Keeper or blame the Cardinals, but not the Flame itself. It's not that the Flame is an abstract concept; it's just not anthropomorphic in any sense of the word. The Keeper is the representative of that force, and she's someone you can actually put a face to and hate. Why not blame her for the evil done by her church?
Altar_Boy 06-06-07, 04:21 PM	My personal theory is that, at least for many gamers here in the United States we've been kinda raised to believe that Theocracy is automatically a bad thing and react negatively to it on some kind of subconsious level. Thane is a theocracy. A theocracy based on a good, just, and noble religion, but its a theocracy, and theocracy is bad. So Thrane must be bad. So we automatically look for reasons why its bad, and focus of the various corrupt parts of the CotSF, even if that is a minority. They give us enough reason to villify the Church of the Silver Flame. On these boards I see plenty of attempts to demonize the Church of the Silver Flame, A church based on doing good, and spreading good. At the same time I see people trying to put the Blood of Vol on a pedistal. Not that the followers of the religion are automatically evil, but the core of the faith does believe that the path to immortality is to kill the gods and one of the best weapons is the undead. We treat it as a mistunderstood and persecuted religion. That we have a tendacy to want to see the Silver Flame tarnished while we continue to look for ways to make the Blood of Vol (at least those parts ignorant of the Lich Vol and her true motives) heroic I don't know. Granted one of my favorite parts of Eberron is the tendancy for things to not be black and white, however some people have a tendacy to not want to make things gray.... but rather they take things that were white in other settings and make them black, and vice versa. QFT. The Silver Flame is respectable to those IRL beleive strongly in LG religions, and vice-versa. I imagine the church of the Sovereign Host is equally fallible, but with its less centralized hierarchy and more diverse standards for behaviour, is less apt to be criticized.
Hellcow 06-06-07, 04:29 PM	I imagine the church of the Sovereign Host is equally fallible, but with its less centralized hierarchy and more diverse standards for behaviour, is less apt to be criticized. Certainly. You can find corrupt priests in any religion. If you consider the priests who put the goals of Erandis over those of the common people to be corrupt, the Blood of Vol is rife with corruption. Looking to The Shattered Land, Maru Sakhesh is a perfect example of a corrupt priest of the Sovereign Host. The Church of the Silver Flame stands out because of its structure, the fact that the theocracy of Thrane can give corrupt priests political power, and because corruption is such a clear violation of its noble ideals. But it's not supposed to be "the most corrupt religion in Khorvaire". And the Keeper of the Flame - who speaks for the majority of the faithful - is a decent person, even if she is still learning how to deal with the cardinals.
Neutronium_Dragon 06-06-07, 08:08 PM	> Hell even in Forgotten Realms where gods are real and come down for tea > every Sunday a cleric can fall from power into evil or heresy. Only difference > in Eberron is that they don't lose any of their powers. It's also possible for them to maintain their powers in the FR. The only difference is that it costs them a feat to do it (which appeared in the Waterdeep book). But as long as they have the feat, they can maintain their powers by following a Eberron-style train of rationalization as to why their actions are necessary in the furtherance of the faith, despite the fact that their actions in the name of a good faith are objectively evil.
gensuke626 06-06-07, 08:46 PM	Hmm...at least I'm mentally portraying Jaela properly...I've always seen her as a sweet innocent girl, burdened by things beyond her control. She's a very strong and courageous girl, but I also see her inexperience as a point where the cardinals take advantage of her. I also figured that the Queen and Jaela might be trying to jointly work Thrane away from being a theocracy and more towards a traditional monarchy. Jeala would want it because she wants the people to choose to follow the church and not let the church dictate how their lives should be, and the Queen would want it for slightly less noble reasons.
Psionycx 06-06-07, 09:06 PM	I've just never seen anyone treating the Flame this way. In my opinion they'd blame the Keeper or blame the Cardinals, but not the Flame itself. It's not that the Flame is an abstract concept; it's just not anthropomorphic in any sense of the word. The Keeper is the representative of that force, and she's someone you can actually put a face to and hate. Why not blame her for the evil done by her church? I'm a bit influenced by personal experience, being a gay man and a Christian. Because of the anti-gay spew that frequently flows out from people like the Pope or the late Rev Jerry Falwell, a lot of gay people have an instinctive aversion Christianity, or even an outright hostility to God, born from the attitudes expressed by some religious leaders towards them. Another great example is discussions I have been involved or heard in which some people contend that Allah (God) as worshipped by Muslims is not and cannot be the same God as is worshipped by Christians and Jews because the ongoing hostilities with terrorist groups and certain Muslim nations. So I have a hard time imagining the concept of ordinary people being fully able to disassociate the Silver Flame from the actions of It's followers, especially coming out of something like the Last War where one of the particpating nations was a Flamite theocracy. It's just a challenge for me to suspend my disbelief to the extent that I could see people as not associating the actions of Thrane with the Flame. What can I say? I'm a product of my environment.
gensuke626 06-06-07, 09:30 PM	Actually, Psionycx, I think you raise a good point about human psychology with that statement. While a lot of people may blame the keeper, I think your average commoner would blame the Flame. Especially if your commoner has a god as we understand gods (ie. Sovreign and the like). I figure your average commoner thinks like this: Thrane is Run by the Church. The Church follows the will of it's god. Therefore, Thrane is Run by the will of it's god. Therefore, if a Thrane soldier kills my friends, it's because the Flame told them to. I assume that most commoners have 0 ranks in Knowledge (Religion) and only know the basics of what the priests tell them. So, I figure most commoners wouldn't be able to concieve the flame as a divine force and therefore would assume it is a divine being, especially since it obviously talks to someone. Psychologically, as people, we try to understand foreign concepts by comparing them to concepts we can understand. I see it all the time in Japanese Class, I get the concept of Aizuchi (The very important "So desu ka?") compared to back-channeling (The tendency to say "uh-huh" or some other short response while someone else is talking) Therefore, to someone who has never studied Buddhism, they would assume that Buddha is the God of Buddhism and that Nirvana is the Buddhist's name for Heaven. Similarly, the Flame is the God of the Church of the Silver Flame and Vol is the God of the Blood of Vol to your average commoner (Afterall, It's Vol's Blood...whoever Vol is:confused:). I just realized I rambled more than I meant to...sorry.
Revvecor 06-06-07, 09:39 PM	I figure your average commoner thinks like this: Thrane is Run by the Church. The Church follows the will of it's god. Therefore, Thrane is Run by the will of it's god. Therefore, if a Thrane soldier kills my friends, it's because the Flame told them to. I assume that most commoners have 0 ranks in Knowledge (Religion) and only know the basics of what the priests tell them. So, I figure most commoners wouldn't be able to concieve the flame as a divine force and therefore would assume it is a divine being, especially since it obviously talks to someone. Therefore, to someone who has never studied Buddhism, they would assume that Buddha is the God of Buddhism and that Nirvana is the Buddhist's name for Heaven. Similarly, the Flame is the God of the Church of the Silver Flame and Vol is the God of the Blood of Vol to your average commoner (Afterall, It's Vol's Blood...whoever Vol is:confused:). I completely agree!
Psionycx 06-06-07, 11:21 PM	And Buddhism is an excellent example, even better than the ones I gave really. Buddha is not really a "god" in the traditional sense (at least he never claimed he was). But there are many impressive temples in the world with spectacular sculptures of Buddha in them, and as a result many people who know little about Buddhist theology assume that Buddha is the "god" of Buddhism and that Buddhist clergy are speaking on behalf of their "god". While it's easy for armchair intellectuals (like us) to wax philosophical about the nature of the divine on Eberron, most people that live in Khorvaire simply assume that their deities are real beings. In particular, the nature of the Sovereign Host/Dark Six religion, making up a majority of the population, promotes the idea of anthropomorphic gods that exert conscious will. Whether or not clergy really hear from their gods is immaterial. Most people believe that they do or else they wouldn't listen to them. A person that doesn't belong to the Church of the Silver Flame, and who doesn't have any ranks in Knowledge (Religion) probably assumes that the Flame is some sort of "god" given the fervor It's followers feel about it. And the Flame provides divine magic that Thrane wielded to great effect during the Last War. Those who feared getting blasted by magics called down by clerics of the Flame are probably not going to have an unbiased attitude towards It. At least, I can't imagine that I would. Maybe it's just that this would require a greater degree of open-mindedness than people seem to exhibit in the real world. But I find it very hard to believe.
gensuke626 06-06-07, 11:46 PM	Nah, I don't think the commoners are any more open minded about their world than we are. I'd almost argue that the commoners of Eberron (Eberrites? Eberronians?...hmm...Eber-Ronin!) would be about as open minded as the people of the early 1900s. I don't know if anyone else gets this, but to me, Eberron has a distinct industrial era flavor to it's fantasy, and I get an almost Steampunk vibe from it. So while we have those with old money rubbing elbows with nouveau riche, all able to attain the levels of education nessecary to learn the basic tenants of most of the major religions of the world, we also have to admit that the majority of the people are commoners; factory workers, miners, delivery teams, farmers, and market workers. Most of these people only know enough about their own religion to get them by, forget learning the religion of some other person. Heck, I bet if you put a man from Korth, a man from Sharn, and a man from Flamekeep together in the same room, they'd have trouble talking with each other. They'd be able to get the jist of what the others are saying, but local slangs and pidgeon would enter the conversation and leave someone in the dark as to what the Brelish man is Laughing about...Then agian, this is D&D, maybe the language barrier isn't that strong... Gah, I rambled again!:weep:
Nived 06-07-07, 12:30 AM	The pervasiveness of the Dragonmark Houses, particularly Kundarak, Orien, and Lyrandar controling banking and shipping, and Sivis contoling communication (meaning someone in Korth could speak to someone in Wroat) knocks down that language barrier.
mhacdebhandia 06-07-07, 12:49 AM	Aww, can we say "Sanctified" and not "Flamite"? Pretty please? "Flamite" is such a clumsy, ugly word.
Hellcow 06-07-07, 01:57 AM	Therefore, to someone who has never studied Buddhism, they would assume that Buddha is the God of Buddhism and that Nirvana is the Buddhist's name for Heaven. Similarly, the Flame is the God of the Church of the Silver Flame and Vol is the God of the Blood of Vol to your average commoner. A number of points here. The Silver Flame is not an obscure religion. It has supporters in all of the Five Nations... significant numbers in Aundair and Breland, not to mention Thrane, and even a token presence in Karrnath. This has been the case for hundreds of years. Even if you don't know the actual doctrine of the Flame, if you're in any of the aforementioned nations (or Zilargo), you're likely to have heard ministers or missionaries speak, or simply talked with the followers of the Flame. And this is the critical point. They don't attribute their actions to the Flame. The priest doesn't say "I need 10,000 gp or the Flame's going to call me home." During the purge, no one said "The Flame made me do it." The Keeper didn't say that the FLAME had told him lycanthropy was evil. He announced that lycanthropy was a curse that irredeemably damaged the soul - his own conclusion. He is the vessel of the Flame's power, and considered the holiest person in the faith, the strongest channel to the light - as such a person to be trusted. But even he doesn't claim to speak with the voice of the Flame. Judaism, Islam, Christianity - all of these faiths are based around a deity who is capable of speaking directly with its followers, and who in some cases can actually be portrayed in a picture. God created the world, and created humanity in its image. None of these things are true of the Silver Flame. It didn't create the world. It didn't create humanity. You can't speak with it. It's existed for a long time, but humanity has had to struggle to touch the light. And that's what the faith is about - helping people to see the light of the Flame, to be worthy of joining it after death and potentially channeling its power in life. But this is a perfect example of a faith where the followers don't believe that the Flame is a sentient force which listens to them and actively answers their prayers. Rather, their purity of spirit allows them to touch the Flame and draw on its power. I have no ranks in Knowledge (religion). I don't even know if you're allowed to depict Allah in picture form (I know there was that big series of riots about the cartoon, but I don't know if it was because the cartoons were insulting or the act of depicting the divine force at all was blasphemy). But simply through dealing with Christians, Jews, and Muslims, I know a little about the differences between their faiths. I know that the televangelists DO often say "God is going to call me home", "God hates X", or otherwise attribute things to God. It's not my faith, but I know that it's a faith in which things are laid at God's doorstep. Meanwhile, I know far less about Buddhism, because it's not as common. But I have met a few Buddhists, and I know that they don't go around saying "Buddha hates X" or "That storm was Buddha's punishment for sinful behavior." In the Five Nations, the Sovereign Host and the Silver Flame are the equivalents of Chiristianity, Judaism, or Islam in terms of number of practioners. This isn't like Shinto. People in Breland may not know anything about the Path of Light. They may not have a clear understanding of the Blood of Vol or the beliefs of the Undying Court ("They both love dead people, right?"). But the sheer number of the sanctified around me will give me some concepts by osmosis. Sure, occasionally you'll see a temple with a statue of Tira Miron. But by and large, the church isn't about humanoid icons. The symbol of the church is an engraved flame; it's not a big statue of Buddha that I could assume is a god. Off the top of my head, I think the comparison of the Silver Flame to Budhism is a good one... though I can't say for sure because I have very little knowledge of Buddhism, among other reasons because it's not very prominent in US media or society. If Buddhism had the same degree of media presence and vocal followers in the US as Christianity, I suspect I'd know more about it, even with my zero ranks. So: the Keeper doesn't blame the Flame for her actions. She never says "The Flame told me to do it" (Well, most don't - I can't rule out that SOME Keeper has or that there are a few priests who do). She may speak of being inspired by the Flame, trying to guide people to the Flame, but she won't say "The Flame hates orcs." Even with the lycanthropes, the Flame doesn't hate lycanthropes; rather, the Flame empowers those who seek to protect the innocent, and the lycanthropes were preying on the innocent. As the Flame has had a significant presence in Galifar for centuries, I'd simply expect most citizens to be familiar with the rhetoric even if not with the details and rituals. They may not understand what the sanctified DO believe - but I think they know that they never talk about the "Flame calling me home." I think your average commoner would blame the Flame. Especially if your commoner has a god as we understand gods (ie. Sovreign and the like). Even the Sovereigns aren't exactly gods as we understand gods. By the common beliefs, they didn't create the world. They didn't create humanity. Only the Traveler walks the world, and direct inspiration is a rare and remarkable thing. Now, as a vassal I believe the Sovereigns INFLUENCE the world... and that brings up a critical point. If I believe in the Sovereigns, I don't believe that your belief in the Silver Flame or the Blood of Vol somehow means that the Sovereigns don't apply to you. Dol Dorn and Dol Arrah (and the Mockery) are the Sovereigns of War. If the Thranish army defeats us, I'm not going to say "Curse that wily Flame!" because I don't believe the Flame influences war. Either we lacked the faith to win Dol Dorn's favor, or the Mockery chose to support the vile treachery of the Thranes, or the Traveler misled us, or what have you. You can believe whatever you want to believe - but I know the Sovereigns govern all things. ESPECIALLY in the case of the Sovereign Host - a religion that absorbs every religion it can under its umbrella - I'm far more likely to say that you Flame worshippers are actually just drawing power from Dol Arrah (if I like you) or either the Shadow, the Mockery, or the Traveler (if I don't). I'm not going to blame your god because I don't believe in your god. My gods are the divine forces of the universe; you, on the other hand, are clearly confused and either calling the gods by the wrong name or being empowered by fiends.
Syltorian 06-07-07, 03:35 AM	So: the Keeper doesn't blame the Flame for her actions. She never says "The Flame told me to do it" (Well, most don't - I can't rule out that SOME Keeper has or that there are a few priests who do). She may speak of being inspired by the Flame, trying to guide people to the Flame, but she won't say "The Flame hates orcs." Even with the lycanthropes, the Flame doesn't hate lycanthropes; rather, the Flame empowers those who seek to protect the innocent, and the lycanthropes were preying on the innocent. I have two questions on this, Hellcow. First, I believe Five Nations states that some Purified see the destruction of Cyre in the Mourning as a just punishment for their alledged depravity. I've always found that doesn't really make sense - by the same book, Thrane was allied with Cyre at the time, the Flame itself doesn't seem to go in for that kind of thing otherwise Karrnath would be a goner, and I doubt It would even consider (if It could consider anything, not being properly sentient) sacrificing so many innocents - but it is presented as a common opinion amongst Purified. What's your opinion on that? Second, mostly for confirmation: You say that the Keeper of the Flame does not blame the Flame for her actions or say that the Flame made her do things. Am I right to assume that this also means that the concept of ex-cathedra statements we have in the Catholic Church, the idea that the Pope is infallible and may not be contradicted on matters of dogma, does not exist in the Silver Flame? Can the purified contradict the Keeper on religion or general ethics?
Hellcow 06-07-07, 11:23 AM	First, I believe Five Nations states that some Purified see the destruction of Cyre in the Mourning as a just punishment for their alledged depravity. Well, with the understanding that I didn't work on Five Nations, a few thoughts here. I completely agree: this seems like an unlikely opinion for a majority of the Purified of Thrane to hold. As you say, they were allies of Cyre at the time. There were a considerable number of worshippers of the Silver Flame in Cyre. Again, many people (including Eberron authors) seem to forget that while the Flame is the national religion of Thrane, it has strong support in most of the Five Nations and even a token presence in Karrnath. Not everyone supports the Theocracy, and thus they feel justified in defending their nation from Thranish forces. When Thrane enters Aundair to fight lycanthropes, it's acting in accordance with the mission of the Silver Flame. When it attempts to claim new land for the nation? It's acting in the national interests of Thrane. The reason many worshippers disapprove of the theocracy is because it blurs that line and may lead the Church astray. But there were devoted worshippers of the Flame in Cyre - just not loyal to THRANE. The doctrine of the Flame is to redeem human evil with compassion and inspiration, not to engage in mass slaughter. The death of so many means souls lost to the Flame and does no one any good. Furthermore, the goal of the church is to protect the innocent from supernatural evil. The Mourning is quite clearly supernatural evil. Even if you did accept the complete condemnation of Cyre, the Mourning still poses a threat to those around Cyre. The idea that the Church would in any way accept the Mourning as a just act seems highly improbable to me. If anyone DID hold this view, I'd see it as being the extremist Puritans. In my mind they are primarily concentrated in Aundair, thus avoiding the "allied with Cyre" situation. However, even THERE, I wouldn't see them as claiming that the Flame ITSELF caused the Mourning. The argument I would see would be "These corrupt people tampered with dangerous forces and brought this doom upon themselves." They may consider it to be a just punishment, but they aren't saying that it was in any way caused by the Flame. And even there, I don't see this as making much sense. The doctrine of the Flame is about protecting the innocent and redeeming the misguided, not punishing them. There is no Hell in the doctrine of the Flame; the worst thing that happens is that souls are lost to Dolurrh. So even if those people ARE depraved, killing them doesn't punish them; it simply means that it's impossible to redeem their misguided souls and bring them to the Flame. The key is that the Puritans are often blinded by zealotry and their beliefs aren't as rational as those of the mainstream church (likewise for the sects that believe things like "Human souls are the only ones worthy of the Flame" - it's an extremist view which may appeal to a particular sect, but which most members of the faith would consider to be nonsense). Another side note on the "Mourning Caused By The Flame" - The Silver Flame can't directly affect Eberron. If it could - especially in such a dramatic way - it surely would have dealt with the lycanthropes or the released rajah itself. The Flame is a source of power, but it must be channeled and used by virtuous mortals; it can't just smite people on its own. This is one difference between the Flame and the Sovereigns. While we don't SEE the Sovereigns walking around, vassals certainly believe that a terrible storm is the wrath of the Devourer, and a bountiful harvest is the blessing of Arawai. Essentially, I think that a lot of Eberron writers are too quick to make the Flame a dark version of Catholicism, which isn't what it's supposed to be at all. Yes, it has a strong hierarchy, missionary zeal, a council of cardinals, and a supreme pontiff. Yes, it's engaged in brutal acts in the past which in the modern day are seen as misguided and even evil. However, beyond that: The Flame itself is not seen as a sentient being that takes direct action. It didn't create the world. It didn't create humanity. Even the Voice of the Flame exists to guide humanity TO the light, not to tell them what to do. The Flame doesn't answer prayers. Instead, the pure soul touches the Flame and draws on its power to aid those in need. There is no Heaven or Hell. Noble souls join with the Flame, and this is certainly a state to be desired. But the main thing about this is that your spirit strengthens the Flame, helping it to bind the forces of evil and empower those who come after you. You don't live on in an idealized paradise - but your death serves a greater purpose, and you are part of the ecstatic light. Meanwhile, when ignoble folks die, their souls go to Dolurrh and fade away. Not punishment - just nothing at all. The death of an ignoble soul is a tragedy, because it's a soul lost to the Flame - it's not just punishment. The goal of the church is to fight supernatural evil with sword and flame - and to fight MORTAL evil with charity, compassion, and inspiration. With mortals, you want to lead them TO the light. The good of the many DOES outweigh the needs of the few; if there's a mass murderer who threatens a pile of innocent lives, it's acceptable to kill him to save the rest (though it's still an unfortunate loss). The spiritual emnity between Thrane and Karrnath is based on that nations' acceptance of undead troops; undead fall into that "supernatural evil" standpoint, and that practice must be stopped. But it's never the ideal solution when dealing with humans, gnomes, etc. Demons, undead, lycanthropes, "monsters" - these are all things where immediate use of force is called for. Greedy merchants, petty thieves, corrupt politicians - as mortal evils, these are the people the church seeks to redeem. Killing them is an admission of failure and a soul lost to the Flame. Sometimes the needs of the many may require this - but it's a failure nonetheless. The cultures of Eberron may be similar to Earthly cultures, but they aren't supposed to match to any culture. There may be touchstones with the religions, but they certainly aren't supposed to map to any earthly religion. Second, mostly for confirmation: You say that the Keeper of the Flame does not blame the Flame for her actions or say that the Flame made her do things. Am I right to assume that this also means that the concept of ex-cathedra statements we have in the Catholic Church, the idea that the Pope is infallible and may not be contradicted on matters of dogma, does not exist in the Silver Flame? Can the purified contradict the Keeper on religion or general ethics? Yes and no. The Keeper of the Flame isn't the Voice of the Flame, and even the Voice of the Flame is a guide to the light, not a "The Flame sez X" force. With that said, the Keeper is chosen by the divine force as the perfect vessel for the light of the Flame. So the Keeper is NOT infalliable. Jaela and others question some of the edicts passed during the purge. But the Keeper is seen as the greatest conduit of the light - and as such, someone whose opinions hold more weight than anyone else. The Flame doesn't tell you what to do, but it is a source of inspiration, and the Keeper has the strongest connection to that inspiration. So Jaela DOES have to debate with the cardinals, for example. Nonetheless, the common people generally accept her word as law, because she's the Keeper. You CAN question it. Many of the Puritans DO question it, claiming that she's too soft. But MOST people won't question it, because she is the holiest person in the church. As a side note, people are often described as "listening to the Flame" - with the potential that they are listening to the demon within the Flame. I'm OK with this. But it's not the same thing as a Voice From On High saying "KEITH! DO THIS!" The Flame is an aggregate of noble souls. That light may provide inspiration and show me a path to follow - shedding light on my own troubled thoughts. But it's not a literal, anthropomorphic voice having a chat with me.
Psionycx 06-07-07, 03:48 PM	I'm sorry Keith, because I love your setting and think it's awesome. But that's just too much for me to swallow. Most people, as a rule, have a real inability to embrace non-theistic belief systems. Even adherents of semi-philosophical religious traditions like Buddhism and Taosim frequently fall back to some kind of theism whether borrowing gods from other religions (such as Hinduism or Chinese traditional pantheism) or else venerating spirits or ancestors. But there are very few people in the real world willing to actually worship an abstract force as an abstract force. It's like worshipping sunlight. You can argue that it is, in and of itself, good for bringing light and warmth and providing the basic energy of life to the world. But very few cultures that venerated the sun in history, if any, failed to ultimately assign an actual deific nature to it, hence the abundance of sun gods throughout history. Greek philsophers tried to push the idea of an "Unmoved Mover", a remote god from which creation emanates but who was in turn untouched by the thoughts and prayers of the Earthly world. But that didn't appeal to any but the most philsophical and Christianity quickly co-opted their nascent montheism and injected the idea of a eternal god that nonetheless interacted with the mortal world in real time. Plus, a surprising number of people know little more than the basics of their own religion and it's history, much less more than generalities about others. Very few Christians realize that Jesus is considered a prophet in Islam for example, or that Muslims agree that He was the result of a virgin birth. When Pope John Paul II died I had a lot of idle conversation with my family about the selection of a new Pope, and despite their being lifelong Catholics (and me being a rebel Protestant) they didn't know that legally any Catholic could be elected Pope, it doesn't have to be one of the Cardinals. So I have a hard time believing that many people would seriously buy into the Flame being "just a force", even though it really is. The moment you assign a pontiff (the Keeper) whose role supposedly reflects communion with the Flame you create the implication that there is something to commune with. It's even harder for me to believe that anyone would utterly disassociate the actions of a religious organization from the deity it venerates. That also doesn't generally happen in the real world. Even now extremists in the Middle East use George W Bush's propensity for making Christian-themed remarks as evidence that this is all a global showdown between "Christian West" and the "Muslim East". The fact that God has not openly weighed in for either side has done nothing to inhibit this attitude on both sides. Neither does the fact that God generally doesn't weigh in openly on much of anything. So it just seems to stretch credibility to me.
Psionycx 06-07-07, 03:51 PM	Aww, can we say "Sanctified" and not "Flamite"? Pretty please? "Flamite" is such a clumsy, ugly word. But "Sanctified" is a rather presumptuous word. It implies that everyone that doesn't follow the Flame is un-sanctified. Which is exactly how most non-Flamites would probably feel about it.
The Dreaming Duck 06-07-07, 03:51 PM	I have no ranks in Knowledge (religion)... But simply through dealing with Christians, Jews, and Muslims, I know a little about the differences between their faiths. Yes. I'm not a Catholic (or a Christian). But I'm familiar with the basic concepts of mass, communion, and confession, simply through osmosis. I don't know all the details about them - I just heard recently that the priest has to drink any wine left over after communion, because it's been sanctified and you can't just dispose of it, and I don't know if that's true or not. But I understand the basic concepts. In the Five Nations (except for Karrnath) the Silver Flame has a significant presence in most cities. In Sharn you have multiple churches and shrines, and annual festivals of the Flame. In Aundair you've got the history of the Purge hanging over the west. And you have the fact that evangelists will be preaching in public spaces. I doubt people know all the details; they may not understand the symbolism of Tira Miron or the story of Melysse Miron. But I think they'll know that followers of the Flame don't spend their days throwing sacrifices into bonfires or stuff like that. The Silver Flame can't directly affect Eberron. If it could - especially in such a dramatic way - it surely would have dealt with the lycanthropes or the released rajah itself. The Flame is a source of power, but it must be channeled and used by virtuous mortals; it can't just smite people on its own. This is one difference between the Flame and the Sovereigns. While we don't SEE the Sovereigns walking around, vassals certainly believe that a terrible storm is the wrath of the Devourer, and a bountiful harvest is the blessing of Arawai. Which is what ties into the previous quote. If I'm walking around temple row, I'll hear Sovereign Speakers calling out "All praise to the Sovereigns for the bounty they have given us! Let us thank Arawai for the gentle rain, and Olladra for the feast laid before us." Meanwhile, the Silver Flame priests say something like "Look for the light of the Flame, let it guide you on the path of virtue." I may not understand all of their beliefs, but I'll have heard them talk enough to know that they don't attribute actions directly to the Flame. If I believe in the Sovereigns, I don't believe that your belief in the Silver Flame or the Blood of Vol somehow means that the Sovereigns don't apply to you. Dol Dorn and Dol Arrah (and the Mockery) are the Sovereigns of War... You can believe whatever you want to believe - but I know the Sovereigns govern all things. This makes sense to me. As a worshipper of the Sovereigns, I know that your religion even says that your messiah used to be a worshipper of Dol Arrah. Given the syncretic nature of the Sovereign Host and the fact that gods don't walk the earth in Eberron, it seems far more likely that the Sovereign worshipper would conclude that the divine magic of the Flame can somehow be traced to the Sovereigns (either it's still Dol Arrah who's willing to help even though they've got her name wrong, as she does with many other cultures, or one of the Dark Six taking advantage of the church) than to assume the existence of another being of equal power to Sovereigns and Dark Six but completely outside of my cosmology.
Hellcow 06-07-07, 04:39 PM	I'm sorry Keith, because I love your setting and think it's awesome. But that's just too much for me to swallow. Fair enough. But it's still the way I run it. It's like worshipping sunlight. You can argue that it is, in and of itself, good for bringing light and warmth and providing the basic energy of life to the world. Not at all. Obviously the sun is a good thing; it gives us all that light and warmth and all, and thus we have all the sun gods throughout history. But worshipping the Silver Flame isn't like worshipping the abstract force of sunlight. As an abstract force, sunlight doesn't do anything. It's just THERE. It doesn't support or suggest any sort of moral behavior. Sure, we can use it for solar energy or to make the flowers grow, but anyone can do this - it's not like only nice people can put up solar panels or plant gardens. The Silver Flame is NOT a natural force. It is a force created for the specific purpose of holding evil at bay. It is a force that empowers specific people who follow its ideals - lending its power to paladins and priests, allow those who are most dedicated to its principles to heal, to turn undead, to smite evil. It is a force that has its own divine servants in the form of the couatl, who after all led Tira Miron to the path of the light. But they didn't say "Yo! Tira! The Flame wants you to do this!" They said "The Flame is the force that holds this evil at bay. It is the force of light and good. We will teach you to harness its power and guide others in the way, to defend your people from the darkness in this world." They don't say "The Flame handed me these ten commandments" - but they certainly say "Pursue the cause of good and you can touch the Flame - pursue the path of evil and you will fail to reach it." Though it wasn't the intent, the obvious example is the Jedi Knights. They believe in the Force. They believe that the Force is an omnipresent force, and that it is possible to join the force after death. They believe that righteous people can use the force to defend peace and justice - but also that it is possible to fall prey to anger and evil (which would be similar to listening to the darkness in the Flame). They even believe that's it's possible to listen to the Force, seeing visions of the future. And you have people like Yoda, respected for their wisdom and deep connection to the Force. In the Star Wars universe, I'm going to blame the Jedi council when they fail to act - not say "Well, it's all the fault of the Force." Heck, if I don't like the Jedi, I probably don't even believe in the Force. The Force isn't a person. The Force never comes down and smites anyone itself. You never hear the voice of THE FORCE speak to anyone... though Luke may hear Ben's voice guiding him. That's Tira for you - a mortal who has become one with the Flame, but who can still guide few fellow mortals. The Silver Flame is a force for good. Those who are virtuous can channel its power. It provides guidance. It provides hope for the future. But unlike the Sovereigns, it does not influence the world on its own. It doesn't have a human form, or even a human voice. All of this comes from those who serve it. The Silver Flame itself does not protect my farm from ravening werewolves, or smite the undead on its own. But its paladins and priests do. The Flame doesn't ORDER them to do this - but it grants them the power they need to perform these noble tasks. Greek philsophers tried to push the idea of an "Unmoved Mover", a remote god from which creation emanates but who was in turn untouched by the thoughts and prayers of the Earthly world. Which is, again, nothing like the Silver Flame. The Silver Flame is not responsible for creation. It's responsible for defending the world from evil. The Flame itself is what keeps the Overlords from destroying the world; if the Flame dies, the world falls. The Flame provides power to those willing to fight and protect the innocent. But it's a matter of the people finding the purity to touch the Flame and draw on its power. Again, Jedi Knights. The light is there. YOU need to learn to touch it. This also touches on the issue of "How can a just god allow suffering?" The Silver Flame doesn't allow suffering. But on its own, it can't do anything to stop it (aside from containing the evil of the Overlords). All it can do is empower mortals to fight against these things. It IS a force for good - but it is a force that mortals must reach, not a force that controls mortals. It's even harder for me to believe that anyone would utterly disassociate the actions of a religious organization from the deity it venerates. That also doesn't generally happen in the real world. And in the examples you give, you're dealing with generally anthropomorphic deities associated with the creation of both world and humanity, with laying down codes of conduct, often with taking direct action in the world. It's natural to associate the actions of these organizations with their deity because THEY associate their actions with their deity. THEY say "God is on our side." None of these things are true of the Silver Flame. The Force isn't on your side. The Force is a force of good, plain and simple. It is tied to ALL life. The Flame is there for anyone who seeks to defend the innocent, whether they follow the theocrats of Thrane or whether they're the Ghaash'kala orcs of the Demon Wastes. It has a PURPOSE. It empowers those who serve its purpose. But it doesn't speak from a burning bush, give stone tablets to its prophets, or cause floods to wipe out evil-doers. It is a source of light for those virtuous enough to reach it. This is where we then get the Keeper. By the doctrine of the church, the Keeper is the MOST virtuous soul. She is the most aligned with the vision of the Flame, the greatest vessel of its power. But she is still the VESSEL. The Flame can only act through mortals. It grants me the power to oppose evil - but if an earthquake happens, the Flame didn't cause it. A key point is that in my mind there's absolutely no reason that you couldn't believe in the Flame AND the Sovereigns. Personally, I don't see why Tira would have abandoned her belief in Dol Arrah, even if she made the Flame her first spiritual focus. The two things are completely different and don't contradict. The Sovereigns are anthropomorphic gods which supposedly take an active role in shaping the universe. The Silver Flame is a pure force that empowers those who fight for the cause of good. Nothing says that the existence of that pure force invalidates the concept of a higher god, or vice versa. Personally, I think that most followers of the Flame and worshippers of Dol Arrah should get along quite well. They may quibble about whether or not the other is doing all that he could for the cause of light - but there's no flat-out contradiction between the faiths, as there would be between someone who worshipped the Norse Gods and says that the earth was built from the bones of a giant, and a Christian who says the Earth was created in seven days. So it really comes down to the Jedi. The Silver Flame is, at the root, a organization that believes in defending the innocent from supernatural evil and seeking to overcome the evil impulses of mortality. This is its primary goal: not glorifying the Flame, but protecting the innocent. It then believes that the Silver Flame is a force that empowers those who pursue this goal, and which continues this battle on a higher level (holding demons at bay). Noble souls join this force when they die, allowing them to continue to aid future generations. And as a note, in this you DO get a touch of your ancestral spirits, just not on a one-to-one basis. As a loyal follower of the Flame, I do believe my ancestors have joined with the Flame, and that it is their power that aids me when I smite evil - it's just their power mingled with millions of others. Anyhow, sorry to hear that it doesn't work for you. It's NOT a religion I'd necessarily see having any chance of existing in our world, because we don't have paladins, divine magic, or all the things the champions of the Flame use in the battle against evil (just like I don't see their being a lot of converts to the Force without Jedi knights). But in my design, the Church of the Flame is more than just an anthropomorphic, monotheistic faith. It's a fight against darkness, empowered by a force that has long held darkness at bay, and that lends its strength to any with the courage and nobility to join in the struggle. It doesn't tell you what to do - but it aids you when you do the right thing.
Syltorian 06-07-07, 04:56 PM	I can't thank you enough for your detailed answer, Keith! Most people, as a rule, have a real inability to embrace non-theistic belief systems. Above all, the Silver Flame is a cause. Causes can be as strong as religions. For those who need anthropomorphic, ideal entities, there is always Saints. Tira Miron was a human being and seems to have kept some consciousness. You shouldn't actually venerate her, but she can stand as a way through which you can comprehend the Flame. Without wanting to make any but the vaguest of analogies, many people in Catholicism venerate the Virgin Mary. In some places she is more popular, judging by the number of candles, than Jesus or God the Father. But she is not a goddess, and nobody would take her for one. There is an abundance of Saints, who are more or less merely intercessors but still receive a lot of veneration, even while everyone is (theoretically) aware that they are not divine. In Sharn too, people visit the shrine of Fathen, for example, though I am not sure whether they actually expect him to have kept his sentience. Pilgrimage sites seem to be definetly part of the Silver Flame religion. And your society keeps telling you these things, over and over. The opinions and traditions of a society can be very strong. It doesn't work always, but neither does any other kind of belief.
mhacdebhandia 06-07-07, 08:00 PM	But "Sanctified" is a rather presumptuous word. So? "Flamite" - or worse, "Flamer", as one passage in the Eberron Campaign Setting has it - are terrible, ugly terms. "Sanctified" doesn't have that problem. It implies that everyone that doesn't follow the Flame is un-sanctified. Which is exactly how most non-Flamites would probably feel about it. All the better. That way, those outside the church can call them the "so-called Sanctified" or the "self-proclaimed Sanctified" . . .
Ryoden_Anariavas 06-07-07, 09:02 PM	In my campaing the power to preform divine magic comes from the power of your faith/self-conviction/sense of duty and not from any outside source. That is at least the interpretation I got from the section on divine magic in the ECS. But if the Palidin of the Silver Flame's smite evil is "literaly" powered by the silver flame then where does the Palidin of Dol Arah get his smite from? Any suggestions Keith?
Hellcow 06-07-07, 09:36 PM	But if the Palidin of the Silver Flame's smite evil is "literally" powered by the silver flame then where does the Palidin of Dol Arah get his smite from? Any suggestions Keith? Dol Arrah, of course. At least that's what HE'LL tell you. If you get into a scholarly debate with him, he might point out that all priests of Dol Arrah possess a powerful alignment aura of Law and Good (regardless of their personal alignment), suggesting that they are in fact drawing on the same force, as opposed to being driven by solitary, personal faith. He might point to commune as evidence that there is a force that answers his prayers. And he may point out that there are many different cultures that worship variations of the Sovereign Host or Dark Six, despite a lack of cultural contact between these races. You may claim that the power comes from faith alone. But he HAS faith, this faith tells him that his power comes from Dol Arrah. Now you, on the other hand, can say "But have you ever seen Dol Arrah? Do you have any reason to assume that the voice that answers commune isn't a simple outsider or even an aspect of the collective unconscious? If Dol Arrah's so noble and good, why hasn't she ever done anything about all the bad stuff in the world? Could Dol Arrah create a rock so heavy that even she couldn't lift it?" and so on. It is the case that all priests of Dol Arrah share domain choices and alignment auras... and that these are completely different from those of the Blood of Vol. A priest of Dol Arrah can channel positive energy. A priest of the Blood channels negative energy. There IS power out there - power that provides an alignment aura and a positive/negative bias. The question is whether that force is in any way sentient or anything like what priest or paladin believes it to be - or if it's simply a pool of magical energy, either created by the shared faith or unlocked by the particular rituals of the faith. Looking to the Silver Flame, there we know that the pool of energy exists - because it's that same pool of energy that traps the rajahs. if you follow my approach, the priests essentially acknowledge that it's not an active anthropomorphic force - it's a pool of divine energy that aids people who dedicate themselves to a particular cause. It is a source of power for those who defend the innocent and fight supernatural evil. Of course, they believe that souls join the Flame when they die, which coould be pure superstition. They believe that the Flame may provide inspiration (perhaps through the touch of the noble spirits within it) which could be complete superstition. I'm not saying that the what I've described as the beliefs of either Flame or Sovereign are TRUE - I'm saying that they are beliefs of the faithful. So the paladin of Dol Arrah gains the ability to smite evil from a source of divine energy that has a lawful good alignment and provides priests with access to the Law, Good, Sun, and War domains. He will tell you that this source of energy is called Dol Arrah, that it guides virtuous warriors, and that it strengthens the arm of those who battle the darkness. Maybe he's right. Or maybe the pool of energy is just that, and it's his imagination that adds all the color. Maybe his pool of energy IS the Silver Flame - which is after all a divine source of energy with a lawful good alignment and the Law and Good domains, and that for some reason his particular way of touching it gives him access to the War domain instead of Exorcism. There's no certainty about the divine in Eberron. As I've said all along, the goal of Eberron was to have a world where there COULD be uncertainty about the gods. It was never my intention to say "This is a would where the gods simply don't exist." It's the case that there are good arguments on both sides, and that it's ultimately a question of faith.
Hellcow 06-07-07, 09:41 PM	In my campaing the power to preform divine magic comes from the power of your faith/self-conviction/sense of duty and not from any outside source. And my point is that it's both. You can't have divine magic without faith. That's the key difference between divine magic and arcane magic. You may be misguided. You may have a personal alignment that contradicts that of your deity. But as long as you believe with a fervor most of us can't imagine, you have the potential to touch the divine. But in "touching the divine", you are touching SOMETHING. You're touching a force that sets your alignment auras, your positive/negative energy bias, and so on. That may or may not be what you BELIEVE it to be - but there is a power out there that you are drawing on, and it's different from that priest with the opposite positive/negative bias. Without faith, you have nothing. But your faith is the conduit to that source of power, not the source of power itself. The nature of that power - whether it is a sentient, active deity or merely a passive pool of mystical energy - is a question only the DM can decide.
Hellcow 06-08-07, 02:14 AM	One more post, then I'm going to try to let go of the topic, as I have lots of Eberron work I ought to be doing. ;) In my mind, one of the main issues here is the relationship between various faiths. This is another place where I follow a somewhat different path than some of the sourcebooks. So, what i'm describing below isn't canon, but is rather how I personally saw the religions of Galifar. The myth of the progenitor dragons is nearly universal. Only a handful of cultures actually worship the progenitors directly; some druids direct prayers to Eberron, some of the Cults of the Dragon Below do worship Khyber, and many of the kobold nations celebrate their ties to the progenitors. But in general the progenitors are above and beyond the gods. They are the source of life and matter. They are the ultimate creators of both natural and unnatural creatures, and of magic itself. But today they are dormant, or in the case of Siberys, dead. If their will can still be known, it is made manifest in the Prophecy. The Sovereigns are also common memes across the world, though found in many configurations and with some variations in name and presentation. The form of Sovereign worship common within Galifar is based on the traditions of the Sarlonan nation of Pyrine. Always an active missionary force, the Pyrinean priests cemented their faith into the foundations of the Five Nations. However, there were always those with doubts, especially in the harsh lands of Karrnath and the Lhazaar Principalities. Following the destruction of the line of Vol, there was a wave of elf exiles, allies of the defeated family allowed to leave with their lives. They brought the teachings of the House of Death with them, and they challenged the people of these grim lands. What just god would allow suffering and hardship? Why worship these Sovereigns, when they allow pain and despair? Have you considered that these are the actions of gods who fear the potential within mortal blood - who have laid the curse of death upon the world to prevent any human from ascending to this higher state? It took time for this faith to take root, but in time it did. In my mind, the Blood of Vol is a faith openly practiced in Karrnath and the Lhazaar Principalities. If it's not the majority faith, it's not far from it. It's a quiet religion, in which the communities of seekers come together to merge their blood, giving their own life as a sign of unity and to empower the undead who guide and protect them. Few Karrns expect the curse of death to be lifted in their life, but they are proud that they are seeking the answers, and that they are not blind like the fools who worship the cruel Sovereigns. On this palette, the Church of the Silver Flame is the latecomer, emerging less that a thousand years ago. Of course, variants of the faith have existed since the Age of Demons. The Khaleshite crusaders were a human nation dedicated to the divine light, while the Ghaash'kala orcs of the Demon Wastes have long defended the Labyrinth in the name of the Binding Flame. But it was the sacrifice of Tira Miron that helped guide a new generation of humanity to the Silver Flame. Tira served as an inspiration in many ways. First, she defeated a demon that threatened to destroy a nation - and possibly Galifar itself. She attributed her might to the power of the Flame and the wisdom of the couatl. She was a paladin of Dol Arrah, meaning that she was already seen as a hero by the vassals - someone whose words should be taken seriously. And after death, it's said that she did appear to some in visions, calling them to follow in her footsteps and seek the light of the Flame. In the wake of her sacrifice, the church exploded. The people of Thrane had been saved from certain doom, and they formed the foundation of the Church. The legend of Tira, the heroic and generous actions of those who followed in her footsteps (including the brave work of templars who risked their lives - and in many case lost their lives - defending innocents from monstrous threats) helped to swell the ranks of the church. As it grew, so the structure grew around it. The church didn't have an anthropomorphic god, nor did it deny the existence of the Sovereigns. Possibly as a result of this, it relied on tradition and hierarchy, with each new generation of Keeper and cardinals adding to the doctrine of the past. As the dominant and largely uncontested faith, the priests of the Sovereign Host largely lacked the zeal of their Pyrinean ancestors, while the Church of the Silver Flame had the energy of a new faith and a strong sense of structure - a chance for followers to be part of a cause, as opposed to simply offering thanks to the gods and praying for defense against the Dark Six. So the Church of the Silver Flame spread rapidly and gained supporters across the Five Nations. So at the start of the Last War, Galifar was largely divided among three faiths. The majority still followed the Sovereign Host. it was the oldest faith, the easiest in its duties, and it offered that traditional anthropomorphic identification we all know and love. Here are gods who watch over war and wind, deities who can be depicted in statue or song. Yet the Sovereign Host had never been a very organized faith in Khorvaire. There were small sects with their own strict rituals and observances, like the Three Faces of War or the Deep Brethren. But by and large, the duties of the faith were to respect the Sovereigns, to offer thanks for good fortune, to sacrifice when favor was sought. The Church of the Silver Flame remained the rising star. While the Lycanthropic Purge may have hurt the church's standing with shifters, it established a fervant and growing following in Aundair, whose zeal even outshone that of the people of Thrane - perhaps disturbingly so. The Church had always had followers in Breland and Cyre, though it had made few inroads in Karrnath. In Breland, templars of the Flame battled monsters in the western mountains and the Black Pit; when horrors crawled up from the depths of some dungeon, a common response was to call for the warriors of the Silver Flame. The Blood of Vol had fewer followers than the Church of the Silver Flame, and at this stage no longer sought to actively spread its beliefs; there had already been some clashes between followers of the Silver Flame and the Seekers. The Blood of Vol was a quiet faith, and in these days prior to the war, the undead were relatively few in number; the use of undead armies was a move driven by Erandis and the Order of the Emerald Claw, not a common practice of the faith. The followers of the Blood of Vol wished to be left alone, to follow the path of their fathers and to seek their own victory in the mysteries of the Blood. The Last War brought underlying conflicts into the open. The Order of the Emerald Claw and the undead armies of Karrnath burned the stereotype of the foul necromancers into the consciousness of Khorvaire. This in turn set the faithful of the Silver Flame in strong opposition to the Blood of Vol; clearly this was a source of supernatural evil that had to be rooted out. Meanwhile, seeking to inspire the troops, many priests of the Blood emphasized that those who followed the Sovereign Host were strengthening the cruel gods with their worship, and that battling these fools was certainly justified by the faith. So in the broad picture: The Church of the Silver Flame has no overall interest - positive or negative - in the Sovereign Host. The creed of the Silver Flame does not prevent the existence of anthropomorphic deities who influence the world, nor does it embrace it. But it provides a code of conduct and a call to action the broad faith of the Sovereign Host does not, and it offers mystical strength and an escape from Dolurrh (of a sort) to those who serve this cause (though a key point is that you don't actually have to follow the Flame to earn a place in it; according to the common doctrine, any truly noble soul can be drawn to the Flame, so that paladin of Dol Arrah will probably find the light at the end). Meanwhile, it is directly opposed to the Blood of Vol, because undead fall into that "supernatural evil" category of Very Bad Things. The Blood of Vol has no particular interest in the Church of the Silver Flame, except that it has to defend itself from the constant attacks by the Flame. Its followers consider the Sovereigns and Six to be equally cruel and evil gods deceiving mortals; this often leads to conflict between Seekers and Vassals. The worshippers of the Sovereign Host, on whole, don't care about either of the other faiths. The Sovereigns govern all things. The existence of some Flame doesn't bother them; the Templars of the Silver Flame are useful to have when monsters attack, and at the end of the day, they're just drawing power from Dol Arrah and refuse to admit it. The Blood of Vol is creepy, and obviously the Vassals need to defend themselves from Seeker hostility, but a vassal hearing the beliefs of a Seeker will typically consider them to be ludicrous; clearly these people are falling prey to the tricks of the Keeper and the Shadow. There are exceptions on all sides, of course. The are sects and orders within the faith of the Sovereign Host that are more aggressive towards other faiths. The Blood of Vol dislikes the worship of the Sovereign Host, but the Order of the Emerald Claw often spearheads horrific attacks on Vassal temples and communities. And, of course, the puritans of the Silver Flame and groups like the Silver Torach are always there to tarnish the Silver Flame. A side effect of the "no gods walking around Eberron" rule is that it's possible for schisms within a faith, and there are sects within all of the major religions, many of which may give a bad name to the faith that spawned them. But in my mind, these three faiths - the Sovereign Host, the Church of the Silver Flame, and the Blood of Vol - are known to any citizen of the Five Nations. Regardless of faith, a citizen is likely to know the names of the Sovereigns and Six, the basic precept of the Silver Flame (defend innocent from supernatural evil - because that's what they've been doing for five hundred years), and that the Blood of Vol are "those creepy guys from Karrnath with the zombies". The Blood of Vol is the most mysterious, and without ranks in Knowledge (religion) they won't know anything about the true faith. But they'll have heard of the name, and if they aren't Karrns, bprobably view it with some suspicion, calling up some example of a recent mad scheme of the Order of the Emerald Claw. Meanwhile, the other religions are all but unknown. The Undying what? You mean that elf WANTS to smell like that? I thought maybe he was part of the Blood of Vol. And what's this whole kalashtar thing about? But as it stands, the Big Three religions don't actually contradict each other - although they have some underlying conflicts that will prevent them from ever existing in absolute harmony. The Progenitors created the world. The Sovereigns appear to rule over the world (if you follow the Silver Flame, this belief is optional, but it doesn't affect the existence of the Flame). The Silver Flame binds the Overlords of the Age of Demons. According to the Blood of Vol, the Sovereigns curse the mortal races, but mortals continue to worship them. As time goes on, the Silver Flame gets its own worshippers, and the Blood of Vol turns against the cruel gods. As a BoVer (of the "Sharn sect" - as this is the version described in S:CoT) I may oppose you and your Sovereigns , but I do actually believe in their existence; it's a central part of my faith. From the begining, my goal was to have three very different faiths, but faiths that were balanced against one another and had their on internal conflicts. They all see themselves as the good guys. The Blood of Vol seeks to abolish death (which incidentally means opposing the Sovereigns). The Church of the Silver Flame seeks to abolish evil (which incidentally means opposing the Blood of Vol). And the Sovereign Host is the dominant, all encompassing faith, which includes both radical and intolerant sects, and a more mellow majority who only care about religion when they personally need the favor of the gods. Anyhow, none of this necessarily falls in line with Faiths of Eberron or even the ECS (though the view of the Blood of Vol sneaks in Sharn: City of Towers). But it's how I originally say the three main faiths of Galifar, so perhaps it will provide some insight into the world. One final thought: I can see people asking "So what is the difference between a paladin of the Silver Flame and a paladin of Dol Arrah?" After all, the PoDA also fights evil, and if he's a noble soul, he might even get to join the Flame - so what's the difference? There's a few. First of all, Dol Arrah is a Sovereign of War. She is a force of light who battles dark creatures, but she also governs battles between men. She encourages her followers to act with honor and wisdom, but she is still the patron of generals and she stands on every battlefield. Her paladins aren't expected to redeem evil souls... one reason that she gets the War domain, while the Silver Flame gets Exorcism. Meanwhile, the Silver Flame is specifically dedicated to war against supernatural evil. Whenever possible, one should seek to redeem human evil instead of relying on the sword. Sadly, as in the case of the Last War, this isn't always possible. But essentially, the Paladin of Dol Arrah is the servant of a war goddess and can be expected to act accordingly - while the paladin of the Silver Flame should strive to show compassion when dealing with mortal evil, and to lead the misguided back to the light. On the other hand, he should be utterly relentless in his pursuit of supernatural evil.
ArcTan 06-08-07, 02:21 AM	After having read the Silver Flame section of the main book, my friends and I have interpreted this religion differently than may have been intended . And I just wanted to find out if anyone else got this impression , or if this what was intended . I see the Silver Flame ( the religion ) as misled , if not evil. Every time I read the entries regarding it , I feel as though I`m reading old stories about Nazi Germany , the Spanish Inquisition, and the Catholic crusades all rolled into one . They look to me as being wholly about hate and ethnic purity (weather intended or not) , while maintaining a facade of holy righteousness. Your thoughts? Nothing at all about the CotSF implies that they're linked to ethnic purity at all in my eyes. They're distrustful of the "monster" races, but no more so than most of the rest of the Five Nations. There are some pretty notable examples of non-human heroes of the Silver Flame who seem pretty well respected and accepted (like Three, the Paladon of the Silver Flame who serves as King Boranel's Knight Protector). As far as the rest... A lot of people associate powerful theocratic institutions with evil and intolerance as a matter of course, which I personally think is unfortunate but understandable, but I don't see any reason it must be true. For one thing, the Crusades were certainly *not* the obvious example of Western imperialist aggression they're often painted as today, and are often painted as such today because of issues we deal with today that have little to nothing to do with the time period of the Crusades. (Say what you will about the Crusades, but they did not constitute the West oppressing Islam. The West was the underdog in that fight and always was.)
ArcTan 06-08-07, 02:25 AM	My personal theory is that, at least for many gamers here in the United States we've been kinda raised to believe that Theocracy is automatically a bad thing and react negatively to it on some kind of subconsious level. Just like we're raised to think democracy is a good thing, and Breland is the most democratic of the Five Nations so it must automatically be good. (Never mind that it's also specifically designed to be reminiscent of the United States, with stuff like references to Poor Richard's Almanac and the "Swords of Liberty" and whatnot.) I think this is intentional, and I also think a good DM's job is to subvert these expectations. I've tried to do a lot to show that Breland is not actually a great place (just as the real life USA fails to live up to most of its values and has so failed for most of its history). And while Thrane may not be perfect, the fact that it's a theocracy doesn't mean it's any worse at following its values or worse for the ways it fails to live up to its values than the way a supposed liberal democracy does.
ArcTan 06-08-07, 02:28 AM	The thing about tCotSF is that its biggest press comes from its controversies (or its screws-ups). Now, as far as the Spanish Inquisition goes: there some some parallels there, but that's it. The Puritan sect of the Church is far more extreme than most other sects, but even then their extremism is at best highly unusual. Also, the Puritans are strongest in Aundair, and it should be noted that despite their strength, Flamekeep's cathedral remains devoid of the Purified, so they hardly have Aurala's blessing. It must also be noted that the reasons that the Puritans dominate the Aundairian church is because Aundair was hardest hit by the lycanthropes. As for the Purge, it began as an ugly-but-necessary movement that spiralled out of control and hurt innocent people. Even then, many church members went against orders to do the right thing, such protecting shifters and helping good and neutral lycanthropes flee to Lammania (and in some cases possibly even young evil lycanthropes). I believe the entry for Lamannia does say "Lycanthropes (all)", meaning that it's not only good-aligned strains that ended up there. Of course, evil lycanthropes could've found portals to Lamannia on their own just as easily as good ones. But I'm willing to bet some of them *were* helped there by overzealously merciful do-gooders, and that their actions of mercy will come back to bite Eberron at some later point in time -- or have already gone on to bite innocent Lamannians who have to deal with the predations of evil werewolves and werebears.
ArcTan 06-08-07, 02:32 AM	As long as Vol doesn't enter the picture, that's exactly what it is. Apart from Aerenal belief and some other religions, there's no telling that undead are Evil in the "really, really bad for everyone" sense. And defeating Death itself for the world? Yes, I think that qualifies as pretty good. In what sense? I know I may be differing from Hellcow on this, but the BoV *is* listed as an LE religion. Its alignment is LE. The powers it grants its followers are LE. To me that means that the guiding philosophy behind it (whether every individual worshipper follows it or not) is also in some way inherently LE. Because Undeath *is* bad, because becoming a sentient Undead *does* make you an Evil person in the vast majority of cases (Vampires, Liches, Ghouls, Wights, Mummies -- all Always Evil, or Usually Evil in the case of Mummies), and because, yes, a religion based on hating death and wanting to oppose death -- and, in general, oppose the idea of endings, of letting things go, of moving on -- is one that I think has a very strong predisposition to Evil.
ArcTan 06-08-07, 02:38 AM	This doesn't align with the statements made in Five Nations (especially the bottom of page 131), and Faiths of Eberron (especially pages 65 and 66 as regards the Sovereign Host). Flamites do apparently believe that the Flame is a conscious deity capable of communicating It's desires (via the Voice of the Flame and the Keeper) and that it does supplant the Sovereigns as the primary focus of Good in the world. "Supplant" is a strong word. The Purified don't actively disbelieve in the Sovereign Host. It is, in principle, possible to revere the Host and worship the Flame, or Tira Miron couldn't've done what she did in the first place. It's just that worshippers of the Flame see the Host, broadly speaking, as a sort of set of abstractions about the way the world is -- and the anthropomorphized familial relationships among the Host as part of that description of the way the world is -- and the Flame is more about the way the world *should be*. Yes, in a sense, Dol Arrah is a sort of anthropomorphization of the things the Flame stands for -- justice and righteousness and the willingness to do what must be done -- just as Arawai is also a personification of certain things the Flame stands for -- prosperity, peace, lovingkindness among all people. But the Flame does not *care* about hashing out the differences between Arawai and Dol Arrah, or the relationship the two have with each other, or the place each holds in the world. That kind of meditation is useless -- there is simply the fact that everyone must do what must be done to make the world a better place, and there's one impersonal force that exists among everyone who is devoted to this ideal, and this force is the Flame. Attempting to codify and personify and identify *parts* of the Flame as gods is a useless distraction. As FoE says, a worshipper of Dol Arrah might easily formulate a series of justifications for how the theology of the Flame fits into the theology of Dol Arrah or vice versa, how the Flame is some sort of force underlying Dol Arrah or Dol Arrah is some kind of personified voice of the Flame. In the long term the Sovereign Host might succeed in subsuming the cult of the Flame through such arguments. For now, though, worshippers of the Flame don't exactly *challenge* these ideas, they simply aren't interested. They don't want to hear it, in the same way that most Buddhists aren't all that interested in finding ways to integrate their faith with Christianity, or vice versa.
ArcTan 06-08-07, 02:46 AM	Well, with the understanding that I didn't work on Five Nations, a few thoughts here. I completely agree: this seems like an unlikely opinion for a majority of the Purified of Thrane to hold. As you say, they were allies of Cyre at the time. There were a considerable number of worshippers of the Silver Flame in Cyre. Again, many people (including Eberron authors) seem to forget that while the Flame is the national religion of Thrane, it has strong support in most of the Five Nations and even a token presence in Karrnath. Not everyone supports the Theocracy, and thus they feel justified in defending their nation from Thranish forces. When Thrane enters Aundair to fight lycanthropes, it's acting in accordance with the mission of the Silver Flame. When it attempts to claim new land for the nation? It's acting in the national interests of Thrane. The reason many worshippers disapprove of the theocracy is because it blurs that line and may lead the Church astray. But there were devoted worshippers of the Flame in Cyre - just not loyal to THRANE. The doctrine of the Flame is to redeem human evil with compassion and inspiration, not to engage in mass slaughter. The death of so many means souls lost to the Flame and does no one any good. Furthermore, the goal of the church is to protect the innocent from supernatural evil. The Mourning is quite clearly supernatural evil. Even if you did accept the complete condemnation of Cyre, the Mourning still poses a threat to those around Cyre. The idea that the Church would in any way accept the Mourning as a just act seems highly improbable to me. If anyone DID hold this view, I'd see it as being the extremist Puritans. In my mind they are primarily concentrated in Aundair, thus avoiding the "allied with Cyre" situation. However, even THERE, I wouldn't see them as claiming that the Flame ITSELF caused the Mourning. The argument I would see would be "These corrupt people tampered with dangerous forces and brought this doom upon themselves." They may consider it to be a just punishment, but they aren't saying that it was in any way caused by the Flame. And even there, I don't see this as making much sense. The doctrine of the Flame is about protecting the innocent and redeeming the misguided, not punishing them. There is no Hell in the doctrine of the Flame; the worst thing that happens is that souls are lost to Dolurrh. So even if those people ARE depraved, killing them doesn't punish them; it simply means that it's impossible to redeem their misguided souls and bring them to the Flame. The key is that the Puritans are often blinded by zealotry and their beliefs aren't as rational as those of the mainstream church (likewise for the sects that believe things like "Human souls are the only ones worthy of the Flame" - it's an extremist view which may appeal to a particular sect, but which most members of the faith would consider to be nonsense). While I know about the rules about discussing real-life controversial topics in the CoC, I will say that nearly all of the arguments here for why saying "The Mourning was a just punishment brought by the forces of the Flame" is irrational also apply to saying "HIV/AIDS is a just punishment brought by the forces of God", and yet there are Christian pundits who have said exactly that, or things close enough to that that their followers interpret them as having said that. (Whether you would consider them "extremist Puritans" in our world is another matter, of course.) Another side note on the "Mourning Caused By The Flame" - The Silver Flame can't directly affect Eberron. If it could - especially in such a dramatic way - it surely would have dealt with the lycanthropes or the released rajah itself. The Flame is a source of power, but it must be channeled and used by virtuous mortals; it can't just smite people on its own. This is one difference between the Flame and the Sovereigns. While we don't SEE the Sovereigns walking around, vassals certainly believe that a terrible storm is the wrath of the Devourer, and a bountiful harvest is the blessing of Arawai. I don't think the implication is that these people believe the Flame directly caused the Mourning as a result of exercising its power, but that the Mourning was something that was supposed to happen that the Flame approved of.
Neutronium_Dragon 06-08-07, 03:11 AM	> I believe the entry for Lamannia does say "Lycanthropes (all)", meaning that > it's not only good-aligned strains that ended up there. On the other hand, there's no saying that they weren't around on Lamannia before then; the origins of lycanthropy aren't specifically stated as far as I know, and it's entirely possible that the Eberronian ones were more or less being "sent home".
The Dreaming Duck 06-08-07, 03:28 AM	In what sense? I know I may be differing from Hellcow on this, but the BoV *is* listed as an LE religion. And by what Hellcow's just said, what that means is that if you follow the faith of the BoV you get a strong lawful and evil aura and a bias towards negative energy. The alignment of a religion is the alignment of the power source you are drawing on, and the alignment of the priest doesn't have to match it. Perhaps the best example of this is the Path of Light. By most accounts, the Path of Light is a good religion, and most kalashtar are lawful good. But the POWER of the Path of Light is Lawful Neutral. On other threads, Hellcow has said just that: the people who follow the Path of Light typically have noble intentions, but the force that empowers them is a neutral force. It doesn't mean that the RELIGION is ambivalent towards good and evil - just that it's followers, among other things, don't get the big cleric aura of good. The Blood of Vol is an extremely grim religion, unquestionably. It's popular in Karrnath, which strikes me as a nation with a generally LE bent. It happens to be an LE force. Doesn't mean that the underlying philosophy has to, itself, be evil - any more than the Path of Light is Good, despite its noble intentions. Becoming a sentient Undead *does* make you an Evil person in the vast majority of cases (Vampires, Liches, Ghouls, Wights, Mummies -- all Always Evil, or Usually Evil in the case of Mummies) What are you basing this on? My copy of the ECS says "the creatures of Eberron are not bound by traditional alignment restrictions. A red dragon may be noble and heroic, while a silver dragon may be a despicable villain." Have I missed an "except in the case of undead" clause somewhere? I can see a logical case for it pushing you in the direction of bad (tie to Mabar, needing to feed on life force of others) - but by the ECS, that "Always Evil" goes right out the window. ...and yet there are Christian pundits who have said exactly that, or things close enough to that that their followers interpret them as having said that. And what Hellcow's said in multiple posts is that the key word there is Christian. Yes, CHRISTIAN pundits have said just that. Because Christianity is a faith based around a god with a long history of smiting the unworthy. Floods. Plagues. Pillars of salt. Saying that the latest disaster is God's doing is simply adding another page to the Old Testament. It's entirely in keeping with the foundation of the faith. Whereas applying the same thing to the Silver Flame is like a pundit saying "AIDS is Zen's punishment for immoral behavior." Looking back at the comparison to the Jedi, when Alderaan is destroyed, it's a blow to Ben because it's the death of millions of innocent, living creatures. I doubt it would have mattered if it was a planet of stormtroopers - the Force doesn't judge people. They were living beings and as such connected to the Force, and their loss was a tragedy. The Jedi who said "Yeah, well they deserved it" is on the quick road to the Dark Side. Same thing with the Flame and the Mourning. At this point it seems clear enough that the purpose of the Flame is to protect and redeem the misguided. Blowing them all up doesn't help the cause at all, and in fact destroys souls that could strengthen the Flame. Some MIGHT say it's justified... but I think there's little doubt that they're listening to the Whispering Flame, and that the Keeper would be horrified by such sentiments. Taking pleasure in the death of mortals is never going to be in line with the teachings of the Flame - the best you could say is that it was a horrible tragedy and failing, but that it was necessary to eliminate an even greater evil (which so far, doesn't seem evident). but that the Mourning was something that was supposed to happen that the Flame approved of. But what does "the Flame approve of"? First there's the whole issue that the Flame isn't a personified force. Second, throughout history, when has the Church of the Silver Flame ever endorsed the mass slaughter of innocents? The lycanthropic purge was a desperate act seeking to contain creatures whose bite could destroy people's souls. And even there, the templars put their lives on the line to protect the people of Aundair; they didn't nuke the site from orbit to make sure. And we're told that the majority of the Church actually wish they could have found a way to MINIMIZE the loss of innocent life in the Purge! I'm sure there's some followers of the Flame who believe any number of ridiculous things, because there's people within every tradition (along with agnostics and atheists) who believe terrible things and things that aren't in line with the actual principles of their faith. But I can't see how something like this could ever end up as the majority view.
Syltorian 06-08-07, 06:03 AM	Aww, can we say "Sanctified" and not "Flamite"? Pretty please? Aren't they Purified, as per FoE? Still presumptuous, but I agree that the followers of the Flame may be presumptuous in this regard. Those who have not embraced the Flame may not be utterly impure, but they are still not as perfectly pure as those who have seen the light, as it were. While I know about the rules about discussing real-life controversial topics in the CoC, I will say that nearly all of the arguments here for why saying "The Mourning was a just punishment brought by the forces of the Flame" is irrational also apply to saying "HIV/AIDS is a just punishment brought by the forces of God", and yet there are Christian pundits who have said exactly that, or things close enough to that that their followers interpret them as having said that. (Whether you would consider them "extremist Puritans" in our world is another matter, of course.) Good point, but as Dreaming Duck says, the God of the Bible has a history of smiting things. The Great Flood, Sodom and Gomorrha, the Tower of Babel, the Plagues of Egypt, and even the final happenings in the Apocalypse yet to come. Of course, it does not match the New Testament God's benevolence to His creation; but He is supposed to be the same God as the one of the Old Testament, and the God breaking the seals and bringing about Armageddon. But as DD says, the Silver Flame has no history of smiting anything else but supernatural evil. This, of course, does not prevent some loonies from claiming it did cause, or at least approve of the Mourning; but I'd say that most Purified would consider it heresy and blasphemy to attribute something as vile as the Mourning to the Flame. You can't have divine magic without faith. That's the key difference between divine magic and arcane magic. You may be misguided. You may have a personal alignment that contradicts that of your deity. But as long as you believe with a fervor most of us can't imagine, you have the potential to touch the divine. At the risk of going off-topic here, how would you use Heroes of Horror's Archivists in the context of this statement? Are they merely applying a more studious method to their faith, rather than going about it instinctively?
mhacdebhandia 06-08-07, 06:24 AM	You know, you're right. My brain froze re: Sanctified/Purified. Apologies. Still, either is better than Flamite. Regarding archivists in Eberron, I think I would be inclined to say that they are firm believers in the existence of wellsprings of divine energy - the remnants of Siberys's mighty soul, perhaps, or something beyond the planes - which mortals have historically understood as "gods" or "the Silver Flame" or whatever else. The idea of archivists going around collecting prayers and rituals from the dozens of different sects which venerate the Sovereign Host today, not to mention the hundreds which existed at one time in Khorvaire or Xen'drik or Sarlona, less on the premise that the Sovereigns have some sort of existence and more on that technical "they're names mortals have given to sources of divine power that we can touch to change the world" side of things makes some sense to me. It doesn't really have to be an irreligious philosophy, either. If you believe that these are fundamental forces underlying reality, that's a pretty meaningful statement even if it sounds bizarre to a theist.
Syltorian 06-08-07, 06:35 AM	So, if archivists are believing in a universal source of the divine, would that not prevent you from getting archivists amongst the faithful of the Silver Flame? Or would they simply be going around trying to find out about Serpent Cults, and about rituals from different cultures they can adapt to the Silver Flame (provided they fulfill a purpose that fits in with the theme of fighting various specialised forms of evil)? But you'd still need the power of your faith to make more out of the Prayer Book than a rather confusing read...
mhacdebhandia 06-08-07, 08:42 AM	I would imagine that archivists associated with the Silver Flame would believe in the binding force itself, not the teachings of the Church of the Silver Flame. As Keith said upthread: Of course, variants of the faith have existed since the Age of Demons. The Khaleshite crusaders were a human nation dedicated to the divine light, while the Ghaash'kala orcs of the Demon Wastes have long defended the Labyrinth in the name of the Binding Flame. But it was the sacrifice of Tira Miron that helped guide a new generation of humanity to the Silver Flame. Archivists of the Silver Flame would travel the world seeking out fragments from these precursor faiths, including the "serpent cults" of Xen'drik, rather than necessarily accept the teachings of the modern church - the messages from Tira Miron, the pronouncements of the Keeper of the Flame, and so on. Rather, those elements would influence but not define a kind of historical-syncretist faith in the holy binding flame, in equal measure with other faiths from ages past. To use a real-world analogy - an archivist of the Silver Flame might look like the scholars who tried to find evidence of a "perennial philosophy" among the various major religions of the world, or like the founder of the Baha'i Faith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith) who claimed that his religion was the successor to Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, and other faiths from around the world, and reinterpreted the scriptures and teachings of those religions according to the precepts of his own.
The Dreaming Duck 06-08-07, 12:18 PM	In my mind, one of the main issues here is the relationship between various faiths. This is another place where I follow a somewhat different path than some of the sourcebooks. So, what i'm describing below isn't canon, but is rather how I personally saw the religions of Galifar. The myth of the progenitor dragons is nearly universal. Only a handful of cultures actually worship the progenitors directly; some druids direct prayers to Eberron, some of the Cults of the Dragon Below do worship Khyber, and many of the kobold nations celebrate their ties to the progenitors. But in general the progenitors are above and beyond the gods. They are the source of life and matter. They are the ultimate creators of both natural and unnatural creatures, and of magic itself. But today they are dormant, or in the case of Siberys, dead. If their will can still be known, it is made manifest in the Prophecy. The Sovereigns are also common memes across the world, though found in many configurations and with some variations in name and presentation. The form of Sovereign worship common within Galifar is based on the traditions of the Sarlonan nation of Pyrine. Always an active missionary force, the Pyrinean priests cemented their faith into the foundations of the Five Nations. However, there were always those with doubts, especially in the harsh lands of Karrnath and the Lhazaar Principalities. Following the destruction of the line of Vol, there was a wave of elf exiles, allies of the defeated family allowed to leave with their lives. They brought the teachings of the House of Death with them, and they challenged the people of these grim lands. What just god would allow suffering and hardship? Why worship these Sovereigns, when they allow pain and despair? Have you considered that these are the actions of gods who fear the potential within mortal blood - who have laid the curse of death upon the world to prevent any human from ascending to this higher state? It took time for this faith to take root, but in time it did. In my mind, the Blood of Vol is a faith openly practiced in Karrnath and the Lhazaar Principalities. If it's not the majority faith, it's not far from it. It's a quiet religion, in which the communities of seekers come together to merge their blood, giving their own life as a sign of unity and to empower the undead who guide and protect them. Few Karrns expect the curse of death to be lifted in their life, but they are proud that they are seeking the answers, and that they are not blind like the fools who worship the cruel Sovereigns. On this palette, the Church of the Silver Flame is the latecomer, emerging less that a thousand years ago. Of course, variants of the faith have existed since the Age of Demons. The Khaleshite crusaders were a human nation dedicated to the divine light, while the Ghaash'kala orcs of the Demon Wastes have long defended the Labyrinth in the name of the Binding Flame. But it was the sacrifice of Tira Miron that helped guide a new generation of humanity to the Silver Flame. Tira served as an inspiration in many ways. First, she defeated a demon that threatened to destroy a nation - and possibly Galifar itself. She attributed her might to the power of the Flame and the wisdom of the couatl. She was a paladin of Dol Arrah, meaning that she was already seen as a hero by the vassals - someone whose words should be taken seriously. And after death, it's said that she did appear to some in visions, calling them to follow in her footsteps and seek the light of the Flame. In the wake of her sacrifice, the church exploded. The people of Thrane had been saved from certain doom, and they formed the foundation of the Church. The legend of Tira, the heroic and generous actions of those who followed in her footsteps (including the brave work of templars who risked their lives - and in many case lost their lives - defending innocents from monstrous threats) helped to swell the ranks of the church. As it grew, so the structure grew around it. The church didn't have an anthropomorphic god, nor did it deny the existence of the Sovereigns. Possibly as a result of this, it relied on tradition and hierarchy, with each new generation of Keeper and cardinals adding to the doctrine of the past. As the dominant and largely uncontested faith, the priests of the Sovereign Host largely lacked the zeal of their Pyrinean ancestors, while the Church of the Silver Flame had the energy of a new faith and a strong sense of structure - a chance for followers to be part of a cause, as opposed to simply offering thanks to the gods and praying for defense against the Dark Six. So the Church of the Silver Flame spread rapidly and gained supporters across the Five Nations. So at the start of the Last War, Galifar was largely divided among three faiths. The majority still followed the Sovereign Host. it was the oldest faith, the easiest in its duties, and it offered that traditional anthropomorphic identification we all know and love. Here are gods who watch over war and wind, deities who can be depicted in statue or song. Yet the Sovereign Host had never been a very organized faith in Khorvaire. There were small sects with their own strict rituals and observances, like the Three Faces of War or the Deep Brethren. But by and large, the duties of the faith were to respect the Sovereigns, to offer thanks for good fortune, to sacrifice when favor was sought. The Church of the Silver Flame remained the rising star. While the Lycanthropic Purge may have hurt the church's standing with shifters, it established a fervant and growing following in Aundair, whose zeal even outshone that of the people of Thrane - perhaps disturbingly so. The Church had always had followers in Breland and Cyre, though it had made few inroads in Karrnath. In Breland, templars of the Flame battled monsters in the western mountains and the Black Pit; when horrors crawled up from the depths of some dungeon, a common response was to call for the warriors of the Silver Flame. The Blood of Vol had fewer followers than the Church of the Silver Flame, and at this stage no longer sought to actively spread its beliefs; there had already been some clashes between followers of the Silver Flame and the Seekers. The Blood of Vol was a quiet faith, and in these days prior to the war, the undead were relatively few in number; the use of undead armies was a move driven by Erandis and the Order of the Emerald Claw, not a common practice of the faith. The followers of the Blood of Vol wished to be left alone, to follow the path of their fathers and to seek their own victory in the mysteries of the Blood. The Last War brought underlying conflicts into the open. The Order of the Emerald Claw and the undead armies of Karrnath burned the stereotype of the foul necromancers into the consciousness of Khorvaire. This in turn set the faithful of the Silver Flame in strong opposition to the Blood of Vol; clearly this was a source of supernatural evil that had to be rooted out. Meanwhile, seeking to inspire the troops, many priests of the Blood emphasized that those who followed the Sovereign Host were strengthening the cruel gods with their worship, and that battling these fools was certainly justified by the faith. So in the broad picture: The Church of the Silver Flame has no overall interest - positive or negative - in the Sovereign Host. The creed of the Silver Flame does not prevent the existence of anthropomorphic deities who influence the world, nor does it embrace it. But it provides a code of conduct and a call to action the broad faith of the Sovereign Host does not, and it offers mystical strength and an escape from Dolurrh (of a sort) to those who serve this cause (though a key point is that you don't actually have to follow the Flame to earn a place in it; according to the common doctrine, any truly noble soul can be drawn to the Flame, so that paladin of Dol Arrah will probably find the light at the end). Meanwhile, it is directly opposed to the Blood of Vol, because undead fall into that "supernatural evil" category of Very Bad Things. The Blood of Vol has no particular interest in the Church of the Silver Flame, except that it has to defend itself from the constant attacks by the Flame. Its followers consider the Sovereigns and Six to be equally cruel and evil gods deceiving mortals; this often leads to conflict between Seekers and Vassals. The worshippers of the Sovereign Host, on whole, don't care about either of the other faiths. The Sovereigns govern all things. The existence of some Flame doesn't bother them; the Templars of the Silver Flame are useful to have when monsters attack, and at the end of the day, they're just drawing power from Dol Arrah and refuse to admit it. The Blood of Vol is creepy, and obviously the Vassals need to defend themselves from Seeker hostility, but a vassal hearing the beliefs of a Seeker will typically consider them to be ludicrous; clearly these people are falling prey to the tricks of the Keeper and the Shadow. There are exceptions on all sides, of course. The are sects and orders within the faith of the Sovereign Host that are more aggressive towards other faiths. The Blood of Vol dislikes the worship of the Sovereign Host, but the Order of the Emerald Claw often spearheads horrific attacks on Vassal temples and communities. And, of course, the puritans of the Silver Flame and groups like the Silver Torach are always there to tarnish the Silver Flame. A side effect of the "no gods walking around Eberron" rule is that it's possible for schisms within a faith, and there are sects within all of the major religions, many of which may give a bad name to the faith that spawned them. But in my mind, these three faiths - the Sovereign Host, the Church of the Silver Flame, and the Blood of Vol - are known to any citizen of the Five Nations. Regardless of faith, a citizen is likely to know the names of the Sovereigns and Six, the basic precept of the Silver Flame (defend innocent from supernatural evil - because that's what they've been doing for five hundred years), and that the Blood of Vol are "those creepy guys from Karrnath with the zombies". The Blood of Vol is the most mysterious, and without ranks in Knowledge (religion) they won't know anything about the true faith. But they'll have heard of the name, and if they aren't Karrns, bprobably view it with some suspicion, calling up some example of a recent mad scheme of the Order of the Emerald Claw. Meanwhile, the other religions are all but unknown. The Undying what? You mean that elf WANTS to smell like that? I thought maybe he was part of the Blood of Vol. And what's this whole kalashtar thing about? But as it stands, the Big Three religions don't actually contradict each other - although they have some underlying conflicts that will prevent them from ever existing in absolute harmony. The Progenitors created the world. The Sovereigns appear to rule over the world (if you follow the Silver Flame, this belief is optional, but it doesn't affect the existence of the Flame). The Silver Flame binds the Overlords of the Age of Demons. According to the Blood of Vol, the Sovereigns curse the mortal races, but mortals continue to worship them. As time goes on, the Silver Flame gets its own worshippers, and the Blood of Vol turns against the cruel gods. As a BoVer (of the "Sharn sect" - as this is the version described in S:CoT) I may oppose you and your Sovereigns , but I do actually believe in their existence; it's a central part of my faith. From the begining, my goal was to have three very different faiths, but faiths that were balanced against one another and had their on internal conflicts. They all see themselves as the good guys. The Blood of Vol seeks to abolish death (which incidentally means opposing the Sovereigns). The Church of the Silver Flame seeks to abolish evil (which incidentally means opposing the Blood of Vol). And the Sovereign Host is the dominant, all encompassing faith, which includes both radical and intolerant sects, and a more mellow majority who only care about religion when they personally need the favor of the gods. Anyhow, none of this necessarily falls in line with Faiths of Eberron or even the ECS (though the view of the Blood of Vol sneaks in Sharn: City of Towers). But it's how I originally say the three main faiths of Galifar, so perhaps it will provide some insight into the world. One final thought: I can see people asking "So what is the difference between a paladin of the Silver Flame and a paladin of Dol Arrah?" After all, the PoDA also fights evil, and if he's a noble soul, he might even get to join the Flame - so what's the difference? There's a few. First of all, Dol Arrah is a Sovereign of War. She is a force of light who battles dark creatures, but she also governs battles between men. She encourages her followers to act with honor and wisdom, but she is still the patron of generals and she stands on every battlefield. Her paladins aren't expected to redeem evil souls... one reason that she gets the War domain, while the Silver Flame gets Exorcism. Meanwhile, the Silver Flame is specifically dedicated to war against supernatural evil. Whenever possible, one should seek to redeem human evil instead of relying on the sword. Sadly, as in the case of the Last War, this isn't always possible. But essentially, the Paladin of Dol Arrah is the servant of a war goddess and can be expected to act accordingly - while the paladin of the Silver Flame should strive to show compassion when dealing with mortal evil, and to lead the misguided back to the light. On the other hand, he should be utterly relentless in his pursuit of supernatural evil. Quoted for interesting-post-that-may-have-got-buried-before-people-read-it-iness.
The Dreaming Duck 06-08-07, 12:32 PM	But as DD says, the Silver Flame has no history of smiting anything else but supernatural evil. To the best of my knowledge, THE FLAME doesn't even have a history of smiting supernatural evil. It may be binding the rajahs, but it didn't destroy them - consider that the Ghaash'kala call it "the Binding Flame", not "the Smiting Flame." When the released rajah threatened Thrane, it took Tira to force it back into the bonds of the Flame. She may have been empowered by the Flame and guided by the couatl, but at the end of the day it was a mortal acting in the service of the Flame that did the hard work, not the Flame itself. Ditto for the lycanthropic purge. The Templars did the heavy lifting - the Flame didn't just blast all the werewolves. If the Flame didn't act directly to save Thrane and it didn't act directly to save Aundair, why would it act directly to destroy Cyre... especially when the Karrns and their "Hello! Supernatural Evil Here!" army of undead are still around. Going back to "The Flame didn't do it, but it was all for it..." I still don't see this. Why? What were the Cyrans doing that was any worse than anyone else? They were even allies of Thrane. I just don't see how you could justify it as divine justice when Karrnath is still standing.
Syltorian 06-08-07, 01:37 PM	To the best of my knowledge, THE FLAME doesn't even have a history of smiting supernatural evil. It may be binding the rajahs, but it didn't destroy them - consider that the Ghaash'kala call it "the Binding Flame", not "the Smiting Flame." That's a good point, actually... of course, smiting the Rajahs wouldn't really help; they are immortal anyway. But you're nevertheless right, the Flame itself never smote anyone. Going back to "The Flame didn't do it, but it was all for it..." I still don't see this. Why? What were the Cyrans doing that was any worse than anyone else? They were even allies of Thrane. I just don't see how you could justify it as divine justice when Karrnath is still standing. I believe the idea - not one I see as terribly plausible, mind you - is that the Flame disproved of the Cyrans because they grew more and more decadent as the war went on. Decadence is still not very high on the Flame's list of priorities. Of course, some of the Puritans shun make-up or even cutting hair, and these might believe the Flame looks askance at Cyrans dancing until 4 in the morning; but in general the Flame has better things to do than care about such trivial matters. As long as your make-up doesn't include "bathing in the blood of a hundred virgins" (and even then, you might first call the Sentinel Marshalls).
mahavira 06-08-07, 02:55 PM	It's interesting to me that so many people consider the lycanthropic purge to be genocide. I always viewed it as more analogous to torching plague villages. Traditional depictions of lycanthropy give the afflicted little control over when they transform or what they do once they have. So you have a disease that is readily transmitted, not readily cured, and renders the afflicted a serious threat to those around him. That middle aged mother of two may be good...when she's human. Six hours from now, the wolf she'll be might hunt those two children down and devour them. Also remember that clerics and paladins are uncommon: most of the people involved in the purge would not have had any way of verifying the alignment of lycanthropes. Bob the templar who's only a fighter may recall the last time he 'fell' for a sob story and the werebeast turned half the town by the time he found out he'd been had. That aside, is there anyone on these boards who presents the Flame as good? I often get the impression that one would be more likely to meet a good vampire than a good worshipper of the Flame in most campaigns.
Hellcow 06-08-07, 03:29 PM	That aside, is there anyone on these boards who presents the Flame as good? That would be me. The Silver Flame has its zealots, bigots, and corrupt priests, and these may stand out all the more because of its noble goals and formal structure (it's easy to overlook the corrupt priest of Kol Korran). But I still hold to the Silver Flame as being, by and large, a force for good. Good people can do evil in Eberron - but they can also do good, and I believe that the Flame does more good that evil. I've tried to do a lot to show that Breland is not actually a great place (just as the real life USA fails to live up to most of its values and has so failed for most of its history). And while Thrane may not be perfect, the fact that it's a theocracy doesn't mean it's any worse at following its values or worse for the ways it fails to live up to its values than the way a supposed liberal democracy does. And I applaud both sentiments. While there may have been touchstones in the original design, the nations of Eberron were never intended to match perfectly with any nation of our world. I see a lot of writers sliding into stereotypes - Karrns are Nazis, Thranes are all religious zealots, Brelish are freedom loving swell guys. In my opinion, the Karrns are a hard folk from a harsh land, who believe that force is a virtue and that martial law is often the only way to get things down. They're a grim and stolid folk. Perhaps there's an Eastern European feel there, but they were never intended to be Germany, Prussia, or any other nation... and they aren't supposed to be "the Bad Guys". They're grim and often scary. They happen to have a religion which involves undead and creeps people out. And yes, the Order of the Emerald Claw - who ARE bad guys - come from Karrnath. But the typical Karrn peasant isn't a bad person. In fact, I'd say that he probably has a much stronger work ethic than his typical counterpart in Breland. And despite his harsh rule over his own nation, King Kaius truly does want peace in Khorvaire. Thrane is a theocracy. But it became a theocracy due to the overwhelming support of the people. It doesn't enforce the rules of the Silver Flame on the populace - it is in power in the first place because the vast majority of the population are devoted to the Silver Flame. And given that it's a religion based on compassion, charity, and seeking to overcome the evil aspects of human nature, I'm inclined to think that the typical Thrane farming community is actually a fairly nice place. This devotion CAN become blinding zeal, leading the people to actions that might frighten the agnostics of the world. But overall, I think the Thranes are pleasant folks. (I'll note that while I say that the government doesn't enforce the faith, the fact that the people are devoted to it does mean that if you're a nonbeliever and live there, you'll certainly have the doctrine of the Flame stuffed down your throat at every opportunity.) In my mind, Breland has always been the seat of crime and corruption, as epitomized by Sharn. Yes, it's a place that values personal freedom. You don't have the martial law of Karrnath or the in-your-face religious views of Thrane, but you have a nation in which many of the people are driven by greed and personal ego. The lord who wishes to supplant the monarchy is driven as much by his own desire for power as his love of the common people. The Silver Flame church of Breland is in my mind in far worse shape than that of Thrane, and I think corrupt churchmen of every faith are more common in Breland than anywhere else. Breland does have a lot of good things going for it. But it's by no means the paradise of the Five Nations. In my mind they all have strengths and flaws, and I'm always glad to see people explore both sides of the coin. And now I really need to stop posting - much much much work to do.
The Dreaming Duck 06-08-07, 03:32 PM	Also remember that clerics and paladins are uncommon... Bob the templar who's only a fighter... For that matter, even fighters are uncommon (though not as uncommon). Templar Bob is probably a warrior - which helps clarify that picture of how much fun it is for him to pick a fight with a werewolf.
ArcTan 06-08-07, 07:33 PM	What are you basing this on? My copy of the ECS says "the creatures of Eberron are not bound by traditional alignment restrictions. A red dragon may be noble and heroic, while a silver dragon may be a despicable villain." Have I missed an "except in the case of undead" clause somewhere? I can see a logical case for it pushing you in the direction of bad (tie to Mabar, needing to feed on life force of others) - but by the ECS, that "Always Evil" goes right out the window. I've always been a tad confused by that, actually, because Eberron clearly *does* still intend various "Always Evil" entries to apply -- unless Rakshasa aren't Always Evil, and the Angels who live in Syrania aren't Always Good, and neither are the Couatl. In *my* Eberron, anyway, supernatural things are bound by their supernatural natures. Basically it boils down to Usually Evil not applying -- or it does apply but as a feature of culture, not race. (Dhakaani are going to be Usually Lawful Neutral. Thranes are going to be Usually Lawful Good. Etc.) But, as has often been brought up in these discussions, there *are* still alignment restrictions. Paladins have to be Lawful Good. Bards have to be non-Lawful. And, for monsters, *particular families of dragons* are still bound by alignment. It's just not possible to automatically determine whether a draconic bloodline is Good or Evil based on its *color*. Just like particular strains of lycanthropes are bound by alignment -- an Evil lycanthrope that bites someone makes an Evil lycanthrope, no question. It's just that you can't tell which is which based on whether they're bears or boars or wolves. If this weren't true, then the Lycanthropic Purge would've been a lot less justified -- becoming a lycanthrope would be an unfortunate condition but wouldn't actually involve turning you into a vicious killer.
DragoonDarkfire 06-08-07, 07:53 PM	True. I think outsiders and the like CAN be of different alighnments but those would be unique probably once in a life time exceptions. For example: A Rakshasa who's good would not only be extremely rare but any Rakshasa born into the world with such an alignment would probably be killed by his fellow Rakshasa's for opposing the forces they worship.
Syltorian 06-08-07, 08:06 PM	I've always been a tad confused by that, actually, because Eberron clearly *does* still intend various "Always Evil" entries to apply -- unless Rakshasa aren't Always Evil, and the Angels who live in Syrania aren't Always Good, and neither are the Couatl. Well, you get Radiant Idols, who started out as Angels of Syrania and then fell. They did aquire different appearances and powers, though, so they are technically not Angels anymore, and they certainly don't live in Syrania anymore; but their existence shows that outsiders can change their alignment. A good Rakshasa could well experience some physical change as well. Also, there is at least one non-good (neutral) Eladrin in Sharn. Unique, yes, and it doesn't look like she will become evil; but it seems even outsiders can become disillusioned with whatever it is they are personifications of. Of course, it's very rare for that to happen.
Revvecor 06-08-07, 08:13 PM	For example: A Rakshasa who's good would not only be extremely rare but any Rakshasa born into the world with such an alignment would probably be killed by his fellow Rakshasa's for opposing the forces they worship. Who did/do they worship? I thought that they were agnostics. Wouldn't it be more appropriate for a good Rakshasa to run away and live as a hermit waiting to assist other good creatures it comes across?
gensuke626 06-08-07, 08:30 PM	I would like to open this post in a fashion that I believe truely describes how I feel about this topic... POSTING IN AN EPIC THREAD!!:D That being said, I'd like to Thank Hellcow again for his very well thought out responses to feelings raised by myself and a few others here. Seeing the Purified as "Jedi" does help to make it more believeable that they themselves don't place any blame on the flame. The reminder about Vassal beliefs was a refresher too, They wouldn't say "The Flame told you to kill That man." They'd say "The Mockery or The Traveler tricked you into killing that man." I still feel that the Vassals would have a tendency to personify the Flame, though as said, they would claim it to be a Sovreign. Hmm...more notes for when I start to run Eberron...I love it.
Hellcow 06-08-07, 08:33 PM	I've always been a tad confused by that, actually, because Eberron clearly *does* still intend various "Always Evil" entries to apply -- unless Rakshasa aren't Always Evil, and the Angels who live in Syrania aren't Always Good, and neither are the Couatl. Well, by the RAW, Dreaming Duck is correct. The ECS clearly states that normal alignment restrictions don't apply. The rules I use when I write or run Eberron material varies slightly from this. You're correct in that I do say that rakshasa are almost always evil - because in my opinion there's a fundamental different between a rakshasa and any mortal creature. Here's the short rulebook I use. I realize you've already addressed some of these points, ArcTan, but for the sake of completeness I'm going to touch on them again. Always. The only creatures I run with "Always" alignments are those whose alignment is literally tied to their very existence - and who, by their nature, essentially have no free will. In Eberron, the primary example of this are immortal outsiders. A Quori doesn't choose to be evil and an Angel doesn't choose to be good; they simply ARE those things, because they are essentially ideas given form. Even in these cases, it is possible for an angel to fall or quori to rise, which is how you get kalashtar and radiant idols. But when their alignment changes, they literally become something else, because their alignment is such a fundamental aspect of what they are. You can't have a good radiant idol; at that point it's no longer a radiant idol, it's an angel. Immortal outsiders, by and large, lack the ability to question their role in the universe. Those few that do often end up becoming something else entirely. Often. There are two ways to fall into this category. The pirmary method is to have a supernatural force that is overriding your conscious desires and forcing you down a path. This is certainly the case with lycanthropes, but I'll come back to them later. In my mind, vampires and most sentient negative undead are driven towards evil because of the corrupting influence of Mabar and the need to feed on others in order to survive - something that eats away at your empathy. But a strong-willed vampire could certainly overcome that urge, and if you take a per capita analysis of angels and vampires, there's more non-evil vampries than there are radiant idols. (Again, more on lycanthropes later.) This is also the case with the kalashtar, or lesser outsiders like tieflings. The kalashtar are influenced by an outside force - their quori spirits - that push them in the direction of a certain alignment. But they CAN ignore that, and there are a considerable number of evil kalashtar in the world. The second way to get an "often" alignment would be to be part of a culture that engages in severe indoctrination of its citizens. This won't be a RACIAL alignment - but you could certainly end up saying "Most Ghaash'kala orcs are good." After this, you get everyone else. If you're an intelligent creature free from supernatural influence, you're on your own path. There's nothing that makes, for example, orcs any more likely to be evil than humans. In the case of lycanthropes, this has actually been a subject of considerable discussion between myself and the WotC design team. This resulted in the Purge dragonshard. The WotC ruling is that lycanthropic alignment is not aligned with lycanthropic form. You can have a good wererat and an evil werebear. However, it is a curse that forces a radical change in personality, including alignment. As ArcTan said, the key is that it changes alignment to that of the infecting lycanthrope. Essentially, there are different strains of the curse. If you're bitten by an evil werewolf, you become an evil werewolf. If you're bitten by a good werewolf, you become a good werewolf. Unfortunately, the evil lycanthropes are far more likely to spread the curse, so the numbers are heavily weighted in favor of evil. Furthermore, in comparison to the slow corruption of a vampire, the transformation of a lycanthrope is instant and dramatic. It's not a transformation of your own personality - it's a curse that fundamentally alters who you are. You could BE an evil person. But when you become an evil lycanthrope, throw the PHB description of "evil" out the window and look to page 178 of the Monster Manual ("An evil lycanthrope who is aware of his actions... delights in bloodshed and will certainly seek out opportunities to slaughter intelligent beings, preferably those of his own race." Hence, shifter lycanthropes taking great pleasure in tricking the Silver Flame into slaughtering other shifters). Even GOOD lycanthropes are quite different from the typical good PCs; they "seek to avoid settlements or travelers and nonnatural environments." Becoming a lycanthrope isn't a free gift of power - it is a curse, and whether the strain is good or evil, it will dramatically transform the personality and life of the person infected. A DM may decide that it's possible for a lycanthrope to break free of this curse. Perhaps magic is used (helm of shifting alignments or the like). An important thing here is that even if the character's alignment does change, the alignment of the lycanthropic strain he carries remains. If an evil werewolf somehow becomes good, he'll still transform those he infects into evil werewolves. Before someone brings it up (again), in the present age (and by 3.5 RAW) an afflicted lycanthrope can't pass on the curse - only natural lycanthropes can. Yup. We know. At the time of the Purge, that wasn't the case; it's all in the dragonshard. While afflicteds can't pass on the curse NOW, many fear that whatever happened in the past could happen again, so the danger is always there. And, for monsters, *particular families of dragons* are still bound by alignment. Actually, not that I'm aware of (and hey, I was working on Dragons of Eberron. It's that "usually" culture-based thing, with just a touch of supernatural influence thrown in. Certainly, the Storm Guardians of Adar are good. But they aren't born good. They are raised by other good dragons and thus likely to become good, but they might not. If that's the case, they probably won't stick around, and they'll make their own way in the world. Thus, when you meet a storm guardian, you can expect him to be good - but it's still different from the rakshasa who is evil by its very nature, or the wererat wo is evil because of the curse shaping its actions.
Hellcow 06-08-07, 08:47 PM	I still feel that the Vassals would have a tendency to personify the Flame, though as said, they would claim it to be a Sovreign. Certainly. When a Vassal sees a paladin of the Flame lay on hands, he's not likely to think "Ah, he's drawing on a divine energy source of indeterminate nature." But since HE believes that noble actions flow from the Sovereigns, he's likely to think "Blessed be the Sovereigns - thanks to Olladra for granting this gift of healing, despite this warrior's confused beliefs." However, he's likely been around enough Purified to know that the PALADIN will claim "I channel the light of the Flame to heal those in need." Who did/do rakshasa worship? I thought that they were agnostics. They don't exactly worship, because they see themselves as beings on par with angels. They venerate the Overlords of the first age. Every rakshasa has a bond to one of these Overlords. Most seek to serve the goals of their overlord. A few actually hope to become an Overlord instead of freeing it, but this has little effect on alignment; they simply want to trade places with their "god". A good Rakshasa could well experience some physical change as well. That's the approach I'd take - I'd actually make it a different creature, just as a radiant idol is different from an angel. Also, there is at least one non-good (neutral) Eladrin in Sharn. Unique, yes, and it doesn't look like she will become evil; but it seems even outsiders can become disillusioned with whatever it is they are personifications of. Hmm, good catch (that was one of James' bits of Sharn). That does go against the "transformation is required" aspect of things. I'd still make it a common consequence, however. any Rakshasa born into the world... Just to clarify, the rakshasa of Eberron aren't technically "born"; there numbers are static. They are of course reborn if killed, and weaker rakshasa do lose most memories of their prior incarnations. It's still back to that no-free-will born-knowing-their-role-in-the-universe thing, but yes, this is a time when aberrations could occur. Sigh. Must resist posting... much work to do...
OctaviusIII 06-08-07, 09:07 PM	Epic thread indeed. It seems as though the tendency is for those that are not religious to have difficulty grasping religion, but Keith has hit it perfectly. The way I see it from the 'inside' is that the "NG" of a faith like Christianity can easily become LG, CG, or any other alignment, especially E. It's a faith that has spawned lying televangelists, honest televangelists, Mother Theresa, the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, abolished slavery, was used to justify slavery, fought for civil rights, and so on. Religions are incredibly malleable, and I think the worst thing we can do is oversimplify them, even in Eberron. Still, it's hard for me to grasp the subtle debates of a completely alien subject like astronomy, but that's because I don't participate in them: it's just that I happen to participate in the Christian ones. By the way, this thread definitely clears up some things in my head - I'll be playing a theologian with a new monotheistic/monolatrist religion, and anyone that deals with theology knows that the more detail you have the better.
gensuke626 06-08-07, 09:19 PM	I'm technically agnostic with protestant leanings. I like to believe that the Christian God exists and that I can have a personal relationship with him/her/it, but at the same time I am afraid that God may not exist. Maybe that's why I've had so many little revelations reading this thread. It's all making much more sense to me now. And Hellcow...maybe if you disconnected your internet or asked your wife to lock up the net connection for a while...:rolleyes:
Nived 06-09-07, 01:10 AM	Heck that rant you just went on Hellcow, that should be a Dragonshard right there, "On Alignment and creatures" or something. If you do that you can't call this time wasted... and we wont have to link people to this thread.