Virtues and Vices [Archive] - Wizards Community

Virtues and Vices [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
OctaviusIII
11-26-07, 04:53 AM Well, I've decided to write a fictional blessing of the Sovereign Host as part of one of my character updates to the DM. This particular cleric sees the stories of the Host and the Six as lessons, with the gods each embodying certain virtues and vices more completely than the others. So, although Dol Arrah is generous, it most fully expressed in Arawai, as her portfolio is one of provisioning for civilization nature's resources. Similarly, although the Keeper uses lies to help satisfy his greed, the Traveler's deceptiveness is his defining characteristic.

If you were to align certain virtues and vices with the gods, which would you align with which?
Nived
11-26-07, 11:13 AM Way back in Dragon 323 (September 2004) they presented the seven deadly sins as Cleric Domains. There was also a matching virtues article in a later Dragon but as I only picked them up sporatically I don't have that one.

Anyway it did have suggestions for Core, Eberron, and Realms deities that could have these domains.

Avarice (Greed): The Keeper, Kol Korran
Envy: The Keeper, Kol Korran, The Mockery, Onatar.
Gluttony: The Devourer, The Keeper, Olladra
Lust: Olladra
Pride: Dol Arrah, Il-Yannah, The Mockery, Onatar
Sloth: Olladra
Wrath: Balinor, The Fury.

Keep in mind the article states "Such a tie to a specific sin does not make a god evil or less righteous that other deities that do not, it merely reflects another aspect of its immortal personality."

Personally I would have included the Silver Flame under pride. Seems to be their greatest failing.
Romulus LoneWolf
11-27-07, 07:36 PM Way back in Dragon 323 (September 2004) they presented the seven deadly sins as Cleric Domains. There was also a matching virtues article in a later Dragon but as I only picked them up sporatically I don't have that one.

I have that one. The Virtue domains and their respective Eberron deities are as follow:
Charity: Arawai, Dol Arrah
Chastity: Dol Arrah, Silver Flame
Generosity: Arawai, Olladra
Humility: Arawai, Undying Court
Patience: Balinor, the Becoming God, Undying Court
Temperance: Boldrei, Onatar
Zeal: Dol Arrah, Dol Dorn, Silver Flame.
Nived
11-27-07, 08:47 PM What I notice from the lists is Olladra. Lust, Gluttony, Sloth, Generosity... in addition to the non virtue vice domain of Feast...

That clergy must throw the best partys.
OctaviusIII
11-28-07, 12:06 AM What I notice from the lists is Olladra. Lust, Gluttony, Sloth, Generosity... in addition to the non virtue vice domain of Feast...

That clergy must throw the best partys.

Well, she is the goddess of the feast! :D

Beyond that, thanks for the breakdown. I can say, though, that I don't entirely agree with some of them. The Mockery seems to be the perfect candidate for Wrath, while the Fury would really fall better under Lust. It makes me think that I should probably lay out 15 virtues and 15 corollary vices, assigning one of each to each of the gods. I'll post what I've got later.
Vharuck
12-03-07, 11:32 AM I think some of the Christian virtues and vices are applicable to all religions and moral systems, but Eberron's pantheon requires a few be added and a few omitted.

Virtues of the Host
Arawai: Sacrifice
Aureon: Honesty
Balinor: Courage
Boldrei: Compassion
Dol Arrah: Justice, Honor
Dol Dorn: Valor
Kol Korran: Wisdom
Olladra: Good fortune, Happiness
Onatar: Creation

Vices of the Six
The Devourer: Destruction
The Fury: Wrath, Lust
The Keeper: Greed
The Mockery: Deception
The Shadow: (dunno)
The Traveler: (way too neutral)
OctaviusIII
12-03-07, 11:49 PM Well, I think I've got it - let me know what you think:

Arawai: Generosity
Aureon: Justice
Balinor: Patience
Boldrei: Faithfulness
Dol Arrah: Honor
Dol Dorn: Courage
Kol Korran: Industriousness
Olladra: Joy

Devourer: Lust for power
Fury: Liscentiousness
Keeper: Greed
Mockery: Wrath
Shadow: Foolishness
Traveler: Deception
Vharuck
12-05-07, 12:55 PM You forgot Onatar.
ArcTan
12-05-07, 07:14 PM Well, she is the goddess of the feast! :D

Beyond that, thanks for the breakdown. I can say, though, that I don't entirely agree with some of them. The Mockery seems to be the perfect candidate for Wrath, while the Fury would really fall better under Lust.

Not really. The Mockery isn't about really being angry at someone and therefore wanting to kill them. It's about enjoying killing in general, and taking pleasure in subverting and breaking rules and in bringing death to people who don't deserve it. Going with the deity's name, the *nature* of a devotee of the Mockery is more one of a taking a cruel and defiant joy in battle, not anger and rage. (He's the "Mockery" -- he mocks and laughs at his victims as they die.)

The Fury is, well, furious. That's in her name. She's the representation of passion making you want to *do* things to people. Lust is her father, the Devourer, who represents passion making you want to *possess* or *control* people (rather than simply take self-willed actions that affect others). Notice that her father is the one who *commits* the crime of rape against Arawai, and she's the one who's the product of it.
OctaviusIII
12-06-07, 04:13 AM Right, Onatar: Creativity

As for the Mockery, the Devourer, and the Fury, well, I don't see their names as meaning the same thing that you (ArcTan) do. The Mockery fights for vengeance and blood in mockery of righteous battle - he fights for himself, not for a cause, which speaks to me of Wrath. The Devourer is never satisfied and always wants more power, just as the sea always seeks to overtake the land by crashing itself against the beaches. This unsatiable appetite merges with Arawai's love of life to form the Fury, a being with no end to the depth of her appetites: she is lust, wrath, drunkenness, and all other desires taken to extremes.

At least, that's my interpretation.
ArcTan
12-06-07, 04:05 PM The Devourer's defining crime that made him part of the Dark Six was a crime of passion, the rape of Arawai -- not a grab for power.

As for the Mockery, he doesn't really "fight for himself". Notice that the devotees of the Mockery -- Monks with the Flensing Strike feat and such -- are notable for being *hired assassins*, i.e. people who accept money to fight for any side that wants them.

He fights because he enjoys fighting, sure. That's not the same as fighting for "vengeance" or "blood", i.e. fighting for a personal cause. Indeed, the point of the Mockery seems to be the opposite of that -- the Mockery fights for the sake of fighting whether or not he's been wronged at all. (Dol Arrah is the one who fights for *justice*, i.e. for a specific cause.)
OctaviusIII
12-06-07, 09:48 PM I don't know about that: rape can be a method of asserting control over another rather than just a crime of passion, and the Devourer's other realms (the sea, storms) don't feel particularly 'lusty' to me. Granted, they don't feel too controlling to me either, but he was difficult to pin down: destruction for the sake of destruction felt like the Mockery, although just because a particular god is the most exemplary example of a particular trait doesn't mean that other gods can't express that trait, too: Poverty tricked Pleanty to sleep with her, but she was the goddes of lack, not of deception.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
OctaviusIII 11-26-07, 04:53 AM	Well, I've decided to write a fictional blessing of the Sovereign Host as part of one of my character updates to the DM. This particular cleric sees the stories of the Host and the Six as lessons, with the gods each embodying certain virtues and vices more completely than the others. So, although Dol Arrah is generous, it most fully expressed in Arawai, as her portfolio is one of provisioning for civilization nature's resources. Similarly, although the Keeper uses lies to help satisfy his greed, the Traveler's deceptiveness is his defining characteristic. If you were to align certain virtues and vices with the gods, which would you align with which?
Nived 11-26-07, 11:13 AM	Way back in Dragon 323 (September 2004) they presented the seven deadly sins as Cleric Domains. There was also a matching virtues article in a later Dragon but as I only picked them up sporatically I don't have that one. Anyway it did have suggestions for Core, Eberron, and Realms deities that could have these domains. Avarice (Greed): The Keeper, Kol Korran Envy: The Keeper, Kol Korran, The Mockery, Onatar. Gluttony: The Devourer, The Keeper, Olladra Lust: Olladra Pride: Dol Arrah, Il-Yannah, The Mockery, Onatar Sloth: Olladra Wrath: Balinor, The Fury. Keep in mind the article states "Such a tie to a specific sin does not make a god evil or less righteous that other deities that do not, it merely reflects another aspect of its immortal personality." Personally I would have included the Silver Flame under pride. Seems to be their greatest failing.
Romulus LoneWolf 11-27-07, 07:36 PM	Way back in Dragon 323 (September 2004) they presented the seven deadly sins as Cleric Domains. There was also a matching virtues article in a later Dragon but as I only picked them up sporatically I don't have that one. I have that one. The Virtue domains and their respective Eberron deities are as follow: Charity: Arawai, Dol Arrah Chastity: Dol Arrah, Silver Flame Generosity: Arawai, Olladra Humility: Arawai, Undying Court Patience: Balinor, the Becoming God, Undying Court Temperance: Boldrei, Onatar Zeal: Dol Arrah, Dol Dorn, Silver Flame.
Nived 11-27-07, 08:47 PM	What I notice from the lists is Olladra. Lust, Gluttony, Sloth, Generosity... in addition to the non virtue vice domain of Feast... That clergy must throw the best partys.
OctaviusIII 11-28-07, 12:06 AM	What I notice from the lists is Olladra. Lust, Gluttony, Sloth, Generosity... in addition to the non virtue vice domain of Feast... That clergy must throw the best partys. Well, she is the goddess of the feast! :D Beyond that, thanks for the breakdown. I can say, though, that I don't entirely agree with some of them. The Mockery seems to be the perfect candidate for Wrath, while the Fury would really fall better under Lust. It makes me think that I should probably lay out 15 virtues and 15 corollary vices, assigning one of each to each of the gods. I'll post what I've got later.
Vharuck 12-03-07, 11:32 AM	I think some of the Christian virtues and vices are applicable to all religions and moral systems, but Eberron's pantheon requires a few be added and a few omitted. Virtues of the Host Arawai: Sacrifice Aureon: Honesty Balinor: Courage Boldrei: Compassion Dol Arrah: Justice, Honor Dol Dorn: Valor Kol Korran: Wisdom Olladra: Good fortune, Happiness Onatar: Creation Vices of the Six The Devourer: Destruction The Fury: Wrath, Lust The Keeper: Greed The Mockery: Deception The Shadow: (dunno) The Traveler: (way too neutral)
OctaviusIII 12-03-07, 11:49 PM	Well, I think I've got it - let me know what you think: Arawai: Generosity Aureon: Justice Balinor: Patience Boldrei: Faithfulness Dol Arrah: Honor Dol Dorn: Courage Kol Korran: Industriousness Olladra: Joy Devourer: Lust for power Fury: Liscentiousness Keeper: Greed Mockery: Wrath Shadow: Foolishness Traveler: Deception
Vharuck 12-05-07, 12:55 PM	You forgot Onatar.
ArcTan 12-05-07, 07:14 PM	Well, she is the goddess of the feast! :D Beyond that, thanks for the breakdown. I can say, though, that I don't entirely agree with some of them. The Mockery seems to be the perfect candidate for Wrath, while the Fury would really fall better under Lust. Not really. The Mockery isn't about really being angry at someone and therefore wanting to kill them. It's about enjoying killing in general, and taking pleasure in subverting and breaking rules and in bringing death to people who don't deserve it. Going with the deity's name, the nature of a devotee of the Mockery is more one of a taking a cruel and defiant joy in battle, not anger and rage. (He's the "Mockery" -- he mocks and laughs at his victims as they die.) The Fury is, well, furious. That's in her name. She's the representation of passion making you want to do things to people. Lust is her father, the Devourer, who represents passion making you want to possess or control people (rather than simply take self-willed actions that affect others). Notice that her father is the one who commits the crime of rape against Arawai, and she's the one who's the product of it.
OctaviusIII 12-06-07, 04:13 AM	Right, Onatar: Creativity As for the Mockery, the Devourer, and the Fury, well, I don't see their names as meaning the same thing that you (ArcTan) do. The Mockery fights for vengeance and blood in mockery of righteous battle - he fights for himself, not for a cause, which speaks to me of Wrath. The Devourer is never satisfied and always wants more power, just as the sea always seeks to overtake the land by crashing itself against the beaches. This unsatiable appetite merges with Arawai's love of life to form the Fury, a being with no end to the depth of her appetites: she is lust, wrath, drunkenness, and all other desires taken to extremes. At least, that's my interpretation.
ArcTan 12-06-07, 04:05 PM	The Devourer's defining crime that made him part of the Dark Six was a crime of passion, the rape of Arawai -- not a grab for power. As for the Mockery, he doesn't really "fight for himself". Notice that the devotees of the Mockery -- Monks with the Flensing Strike feat and such -- are notable for being hired assassins, i.e. people who accept money to fight for any side that wants them. He fights because he enjoys fighting, sure. That's not the same as fighting for "vengeance" or "blood", i.e. fighting for a personal cause. Indeed, the point of the Mockery seems to be the opposite of that -- the Mockery fights for the sake of fighting whether or not he's been wronged at all. (Dol Arrah is the one who fights for justice, i.e. for a specific cause.)
OctaviusIII 12-06-07, 09:48 PM	I don't know about that: rape can be a method of asserting control over another rather than just a crime of passion, and the Devourer's other realms (the sea, storms) don't feel particularly 'lusty' to me. Granted, they don't feel too controlling to me either, but he was difficult to pin down: destruction for the sake of destruction felt like the Mockery, although just because a particular god is the most exemplary example of a particular trait doesn't mean that other gods can't express that trait, too: Poverty tricked Pleanty to sleep with her, but she was the goddes of lack, not of deception.