Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Khaos138 05-29-07, 01:54 PM	One of the players in my group is playing a dread necromancer. He asked me if a warforged could be re-animated as an undead. I've been searching for the answer in my books but I must be missing it. Does anyone know the answer? Thanks for any help.
mahavira 05-29-07, 02:10 PM	As warforged are 'living' constructs capable of being resurrected, it would make some sense that unlike conventional constructs they could be made into undead, but I don't think a standard animate dead spell would do it. Probably they could become ghosts. Warforged are not immune to attribute drain, so they could presumably become wraith spawn or shadows. My personal choice would be to make up a unique type of undead they could be using Create Undead, or a creation forge warped by the mourning.
Khaos138 05-29-07, 02:19 PM	I do like the concept of them becoming a unique type of undead if re-animated so thanks for the suggestion. However has anyone come across an official ruling for the situation? Not that I don't fallow your train of logic mahavira, it's just thhat some people in the group may wanna see the referance source.
Sarlax 05-29-07, 02:41 PM	Undeath usually comes in the form of a template and templates specify to which creature types they can be applied. Skeletons and zombies only work on creatures with skeletal systems (which warforged probably don't but may have). Neither the vampire, lich, or ghost templates can be applied to constructs. Wights, wraiths, ghouls, shadows, and specters are all formed only from humanoids. I can't recall any non-core WoTC products that feature undead creatures which can be made from constructs. That being said, none of these templates or creatures were written with living constructs in mind. A ghost warforged is pretty reasonable. Another way to go, if you don't mind the convolutions, is to have a warforged take the dragon disciple prestige class to 10th so he can gain the half-dragon template (which applies to any living, corporeal creature), which changes his type to dragon. From there, he can become a ghost, a vampiric dragon (Draconomicon), etc. Another option is to hit a warforged with Searing Seed (Dragon 300), which causes any living creature to give birth to an evil half-fiend clone of itself (half-fiends can likewise be made from any living, corporeal creature). You'd have a half-fiend warforged, which can then be made into a few different types of undead creatures, such as outsider liches (Libris Mortis).
Rerecros 05-29-07, 03:13 PM	I think the 'forged need their own undead template, i was thinking that since they are made of wood, stone and metal, infusing them with negative energy will turn them into creatures of ash, silt and rust.
Khaos138 05-29-07, 03:20 PM	I really like the ash, silt and rust theory. See I was kinda kicking around the concept of undeath growing inside the shell of the warforged and replacing the contents within. Like a big fleshy sack inside the armor plating. That sounds a little dirty.
Belabras 05-29-07, 03:22 PM	By RAW 'forged are ineligible for any of the undead templates. That said, Hellcow has indicated that he's not opposed to the idea, just that they'd be something very different.
Khaos138 05-29-07, 03:59 PM	Thanks for all the information people. This is good stuff.
mahavira 05-29-07, 05:50 PM	If memory serves, the organic innards of a warforged are made of plant materials. As a fluff element, perhaps an undead forged should have leave footprints of dead plants wherever they go (or even a larger area, the creatures being deliberately created by the Lord of Blades or Vol as an anti-agricultural weapon). Also, while an ordinary vampire would seem out of place (but imagine a warforged vampire with that biting jaw feat), perhaps an undead warforged needs living fluids to keep its plantlike tendons supple enough to allow for movement. Without adequate nutrition, the creature gets stiffer and stiffer until finally, like the Tin Man, it can't move unless some twist of fate exposes it to more blood/whatever. On the topic of the ash/silt/rust idea, perhaps a warforged equivalent of a ghoul is like a rust monster? In order to keep from disintigrating altogether it has to eat away at the molecular bonds of similar materials.
Kinger 05-29-07, 06:08 PM	As has been mentioned, Warforged Undead are not prohibited. However, it's difficult to find a state of undeath that actually applies to them (being Constructs and all). Bending of the rules here and there has been suggested (ie: Warforged Ghosts or Wraiths) and some of those I support as well. Warforged Vampire? Not so much. There've been a few suggestions for possible unique Unforged (as many are called) on the boards in the past. If you look in the archives of any of the prominent monster-makers on the boards (ieattrollsforbreakfast springs to mind) you might find some. I do like the suggestions for fluff-related traits. The withering of plants where it walks, for example, or the need or desire to rust objects. I also like the image of a Warforged whose wooden core has been replaced by ghostly energy. A Wraith with an armour bonus? Yes please! :)
Edymnion 05-29-07, 06:51 PM	I think the 'forged need their own undead template, i was thinking that since they are made of wood, stone and metal, infusing them with negative energy will turn them into creatures of ash, silt and rust.Its called "Animate Object". ;)
Yadot 05-29-07, 07:53 PM	Didn't one of the books say that Warforged have a simple frame that it's livewood fibers are attached too? If so, the skeleton and zombie templates are applicable.
Burningspear 05-29-07, 08:54 PM	I do like the suggestions for fluff-related traits. The withering of plants where it walks, for example, or the need or desire to rust objects. I also like the image of a Warforged whose wooden core has been replaced by ghostly energy. A Wraith with an armour bonus? Yes please! :) sounds wicked :D, and i like the rust bits..."wanders of to plot the demise of a fellow gamers warforged, o drat, i forgot i am not evil this time :plotting:"
Belabras 05-29-07, 10:42 PM	Didn't one of the books say that Warforged have a simple frame that it's livewood fibers are attached too? If so, the skeleton and zombie templates are applicable. Nope. Re-read those templates. Construct (living construct) doesn't qualify.
Mort_Q 05-30-07, 02:52 PM	http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-319584
Yadot 05-30-07, 09:33 PM	Nope. Re-read those templates. Construct (living construct) doesn't qualify. I reread the templates and they say: "Zombie/Skeleton" is an acquired template that can be added to any corporeal creature (other than an undead) that has a skeletal system (referred to hereafter as the base creature). I also checked my books and it was RoE that did indeed say Warforged have a skeletal framwork of wood and other materials. So why can they not take the Zombie and Skeleton templates?
Belabras 05-30-07, 10:32 PM	I also checked my books and it was RoE that did indeed say Warforged have a skeletal framwork of wood and other materials. So why can they not take the Zombie and Skeleton templates? This threw me, so I read back through the RoE entery. I can't find the passage you refer to anywhere, but I did find this in the ECS: "Warforged appear as massive humanoids molded from a composite of materials -- obsidian, iron, stone, darkwood, silver, and organic material -- though they move with a surprising grace and flexibility. Flexible plates connected by fiberous bundles make up the body of a warforged, topped by a mostly featureless head" No skeleton.
Khaos138 05-31-07, 12:17 PM	Maybe they will tackle this issue in The Forge of War?
the_Conqueror_Worm 06-02-07, 02:39 AM	"Warforged appear as massive humanoids molded from a composite of materials -- obsidian, iron, stone, darkwood, silver, and organic material -- though they move with a surprising grace and flexibility. Flexible plates connected by fiberous bundles make up the body of a warforged, topped by a mostly featureless head" The the way I've always pictured Warforged, based on that description, is without any sort if internal skeleton. Indeed, as I imagine them, they're quite the opposite. Their outer-most layer, the composite plating is almost equivalent to an exoskeleton, keeping the body solid and functional. Encased inside that is a humanoid-shaped mass, with bundled cords of darkwood and leather serving as muscle, and a complex system of tubes, pouches and sacs filled with alchemical fluids that serves as the equivalent of organs and a circulatory system, and so on. So, there's really nothing in the body of a Warforged that would be analogous to a humans skeleton, and thus with a strict interpretation of the wording of the templates, inelligible to be made into zombies or skeletons. That said, I'd be perfectly comfortable house-ruling away the "possessing a skeleton" requirement entirely for the zombie. I rather fond of images like a reanimated ankheg thrashing clumsily about, spilling putrescent ichor from the holes where the party has cracked it's chitin, or an adventurer hacking their way through the rotting tentacles of some monstrous cephalopod in some reeking, cursed swamp or at the edge of a stagnant lake. Nevertheless, even if I did that, I'd still not allow for the turning of Warforged into reanimated undead, or any other type of undead for that matter. I like playing up the idea that warforged, as living constructs, are possessed distinctly different sort of life than biological beings, even in terms of the metaphysical aspects. Mechanically the same, with the exception of the occasional house-rule like the one I mentioned at the beginning of this paragraph, but radically different in terms of flavour. As for Races of Eberron, I don't know if there's anything in there about Warforged skeletons, but I do recall a sidebar in the Warforged chapter called "the Question of Souls" or something of that sort, which explicitly states that there's no known way for Warforged to become undead. So, even if the skeleton thing is in there, it seems that the book still comes down against reanimated warforged. So, since it's a house-rule, those who like the idea of undead warforged don't need to worry about finding justification in the books and can do whatever you feel works for your game.
Belabras 06-02-07, 04:47 AM	I actually really like that CW, and tend to view it that way myself. I also really like the idea of rotting non-skeletal zombies.
Need_A_Life 06-10-07, 10:28 AM	The the way I've always pictured Warforged, based on that description, is without any sort if internal skeleton. Indeed, as I imagine them, they're quite the opposite. Their outer-most layer, the composite plating is almost equivalent to an exoskeleton Whether it's an internal skeleton or an exoskeleton, wouldn't both be SKELETONS? Perhaps it's some finer distinction in the english language I haven't noticed, but a skeletal system seems to indicate a skeleton, rather than indicating the position of such. In my opinion Skeleton and Zombie templates are both possible RAW. However, I'd say only zombie fits the flavour, as I am a believer in the exoskeleton idea and the Skeleton template would mean the livewood rotted away instantly, which I am not too keen on, as it keeps living after the warforged dies.
Belabras 06-11-07, 02:32 AM	Whether it's an internal skeleton or an exoskeleton, wouldn't both be SKELETONS? Perhaps it's some finer distinction in the english language I haven't noticed, but a skeletal system seems to indicate a skeleton, rather than indicating the position of such. In my opinion Skeleton and Zombie templates are both possible RAW. However, I'd say only zombie fits the flavour, as I am a believer in the exoskeleton idea and the Skeleton template would mean the livewood rotted away instantly, which I am not too keen on, as it keeps living after the warforged dies. I'd call that linguistic jujitsu, but you're free to play it that way if you like.
the_Conqueror_Worm 06-12-07, 09:16 PM	Whether it's an internal skeleton or an exoskeleton, wouldn't both be SKELETONS? Perhaps it's some finer distinction in the english language I haven't noticed, but a skeletal system seems to indicate a skeleton, rather than indicating the position of such. Well, yes there is a linguistic distinction here. Typically, in english when one uses the word 'skeleton' unqualified it is done in reference to an internal skeleton made of bone. If you want to refer to something else, you would use the specific term, like exoskeleton. At least, that's been my experience and I've been speaking the language for the overwhelming majority of my life. So, I think it's safe to say that if the template had been intended to include any and all sorts of skeletal structures, it probably would have said so. You could read in "or any equivalent structure" if you wanted to, and you wouldn't necessarily be breaking the rules-as-written given this tiny ambiguity in the language, but I think if you bent them any further they might snap and launch a jagged shard into some poor bastard's eye. Further, I think you've done a rather selective reading of my post, cherry-picking which words you want to acknowledge. Specifically, you've chosen to ignore some very important qualifiers I used when describing how I understood composite plating. I didn't say it was an exoskeleton, I said it was almost equivalent. This means it's similar, but not the same. In this case, the equivalence only goes really extends to the fact that it's an external protective layer for the more vulnerable internal materials to which it is attached. It doesn't cover the entire surface of the warforged body, and it isn't what gives the warforged it's shape. So, for my part, I'm inclined to say that if the internal parts started to rot, weight of the stone and steel that make up the composite plating would either collapse in on themselves or simply fall off and tear the reanimated warforged apart in the process. As far as I am concerned, even if it one could be reanimated, a warforged would not make a viable zombie. Again, if you like the idea of undead warforged and think that it works in your game, go for it. Don't worry about trying to twist the rules, or my words, to justify your position. You don't need to. That you like the idea and think it is sound, then that's all you need.
ArcTan 06-15-07, 06:35 AM	I don't really care about hairsplitting RAW -- there are numerous references in the flavor text to the idea that undead warforged are unheard of, that Warforged cannot commune with the most basic rituals of the Blood of Vol (feeding undead or becoming undead themselves), that people theorize warforged don't have souls because they never leave ghosts or rise as ghouls or any of those things. So I'm with Hellcow on this one -- I'm not going to say it's absolutely impossible to ever make a warforged undead, but it sure as hell isn't as simple as casting the spell animate dead, or else tons of people would've done it by now -- never mind what achingly twisted definition you give to the word "skeleton".
ArcTan 06-15-07, 06:44 AM	Also, it's a huge mistake to assume that D&D is using the technical language of a biologist when it takes about... well, anything. C'mon, "vermin" as a separate category from "animal"? Definitely not scientific jargon here. We're using layman's terms, and in layman's terms, no, an exoskeleton is never a "skeleton", it's "skin" or a "shell". If you define "skeleton" as "hard bits which let you stand up", then treants can become skeletons. Hell, awakened *trees* can become skeletons. That's clearly stupid. Technically, by the biological definition, even completely soft creatures like worms have "skeletons" or "skeletal support systems". Whatever system of internal fibers allows a gelatinous cube to keep its shape, move, and extend pseudopoda to attack things and eat them, that's a skeleton, and by Need_A_Life's definition, you could make an undead skeleton out of it. Again, clearly stupid.
TiwazTyrsfist 06-16-07, 08:10 PM	I'd kind of assume that the "with a skeleton" clause was meant to apply to the concept of "With a fixed form, rather than oozes". A warforged undead... Awesome concept. Here's some idea's I had while reading the thread. Warforged Zombie (but no skeletons) - Created using Animate Dead - Very powerful while they last, however, being dead and animated with negative energy, the livewood ropes that make up most of their body quickly dry out and start to brake and flake off as they move. Without alchemical preservatives, they only last about four days. Warforged Vampire - creation unknown - A free-willed intellegent undead, the warforged vampire sufferes the same problem as the WF Zombie. However, by grappling with a victim, the WFvampire can sink rootlets from their livewood into them, and suck out their vital fluids, sustaining their organic components. Con drain from grapple, with each point of con drained keeping them alive for another day. WF Vamps are heavy feeders. Warforged Golem- Not technically undead, but probably as horrifying to a WF as undead are to humanoids. The body of a warforged, harvested by a necromacer or artificer, and used as the body for a golem. A mindless, soulless construct.
ArcTan 06-16-07, 08:34 PM	I'd kind of assume that the "with a skeleton" clause was meant to apply to the concept of "With a fixed form, rather than oozes". Really? Because I assume it actually wasn't meant to apply to things like giant beetles or treants, which is why you don't see treant "skeletons" much in D&D.
yrogerg 06-17-07, 10:57 AM	Personally, if I were creating a Warforged Undead, it would be a unique creature. Think about it: the negative energy/evil spirits/whatever that typically inhabit undead possess an insatiable craving for life energy, consumed either through feeding or killing. However, Warforged don't eat, and are immune to energy drain -a property that, for this purpose, I'm going to treat as a bidirectional immunty. Thus, if a Warforged were inhabited by an undeadifying force, they would quickly be driven mad from hunger and rage, and would tear living creatures to pieces, but be unable to feed on them. Perhaps some of the more clever ones would manage to bind dragonshards to their bodies to absorb life force from their victims by trapping and consuming ther souls, but these would be an exceedingly rare variant of an already rare phenomenon. That said: by RAW, no warforged undead for you.
TiwazTyrsfist 06-17-07, 04:40 PM	Really? Because I assume it actually wasn't meant to apply to things like giant beetles or treants, which is why you don't see treant "skeletons" much in D&D. Sorry, I was a bit unclear in what I was saying at first. Skeletons, obviously, can only be made from something with a skeleton. Zombies, however, you should be able to make out of any non-ooze corpse, IMO. So, yes, no Warforged Skellies, or giant beetle skellies, or treant skellies. However, giant zombie beetles? Not out of the question.
ArcTan 06-18-07, 12:17 PM	Again, by the strict definition, Oozes *do* have a skeletal system. Anything that can hold its shape enough to move around does.
gensuke626 06-20-07, 09:41 PM	All I have to add to this conversation. The Forge of War. Pg 85 The Woeforged? :D
TiwazTyrsfist 06-21-07, 05:21 PM	Since they only have fluff, not crunch, on them, it adds new questions. Are they warforged who 'died' and were animated? Are they warforged who were in Cyre during the Mourning and were warped by the dark power? Are they new warforged produced by a warped and damaged creation forge? Supposedly the Lord of Blades has dug a functional creation forge out of the ruins of Metrol... Just HOW functional? ;) I hope for woeforged crunch in the next MM or a dragonshard article.
DarkWarriorKarg 06-22-07, 09:31 AM	:D A theory They're also known as Gothforged... They sit around bemoaning their existances, writing bad poetry and anyone hearing them must fight off urges to flee... Yes, they are corrupted cyrean warforged with levels of bard...
gensuke626 06-22-07, 07:35 PM	Do they cut themselves to inspire their twisted arts? But I kinda like how the Woeforged have no crunch to them. It allows DMs to be creative.
Divine_Spark 06-24-07, 09:23 PM	There is a distinct difference between vascular/muscular systems and skeletal systems sorry ArcTan. Speaking biologically, most mollusks that don't have a shell (slugs in particular) just do not possess a skeleton. You'll also find that jellyfish and other sea-dwelling creatures that rely on vascular motion are bone-free. I'm fairly confident reinstating that an ooze does not possess a skeletal system :)
yrogerg 06-25-07, 12:43 AM	There is a distinct difference between vascular/muscular systems and skeletal systems sorry ArcTan. Speaking biologically, most mollusks that don't have a shell (slugs in particular) just do not possess a skeleton. You'll also find that jellyfish and other sea-dwelling creatures that rely on vascular motion are bone-free. I'm fairly confident reinstating that an ooze does not possess a skeletal system :) On a cellular scale, they still do, though. It's just a matter of which hairs you're choosing to split here. :P
Divine_Spark 06-25-07, 01:38 AM	This debate can only end in tears from this point in :P Although, I really would like to see an undead mono-cellular swarm in action now...
Symar 06-30-07, 07:27 PM	This debate can only end in tears from this point in :P Although, I really would like to see an undead mono-cellular swarm in action now... Zombie Amoebas?
TiwazTyrsfist 07-01-07, 04:59 PM	Zombie Amoebas? Zomoebas. You hear a very faint, high piched noise. You're not sure, but it sounds like a large group chanting "Nuclei" over and over again...
ChristopherGroves 07-03-07, 12:33 AM	And FYI, by RAW warforged are NOT prevented from being any and all type of undead. There is at least one (and I thought two) templates that could be applied (Dry Lich is one I think) to a Warforged as they require "living creature" and not the humanoid/giant/monstrous humanoid/etc. kinds of restrictions EDIT Libris Mortis - Revived Fossil - requires a living creature with a skeletal system ... you could stretch that to a 'forged because it clearly has a skeletal system of some sort (framework for the body) but it isn't traditional bones. Also, a number of creatures can create spawn which do not require a specific type. Of course, these aren't templates - they'd just be generic spawn.
ArcTan 07-03-07, 02:34 AM	To clarify, Erandis was *not* killed because of some sad racial misunderstanding between the Dragons and the Elves. Quite the contrary. The Dragons and the Elves *put aside* their racial hatreds *to kill Erandis*. She's the one thing *both* of those races hate enough to set aside everything else to destroy. She's probably the only thing both of those races hate enough that they'd lay aside their usual indifference to events in the Five Nations for. Argonnessen and Aerenal would probably launch a massive joint invasion of Khorvaire just to root out the Blood of Vol and kill Erandis once and for all if either of those groups had more than the faintest *clue* what was going on with her.
Belabras 07-03-07, 06:13 PM	And FYI, by RAW warforged are NOT prevented from being any and all type of undead. There is at least one (and I thought two) templates that could be applied (Dry Lich is one I think) to a Warforged as they require "living creature" and not the humanoid/giant/monstrous humanoid/etc. kinds of restrictions EDIT Libris Mortis - Revived Fossil - requires a living creature with a skeletal system ... you could stretch that to a 'forged because it clearly has a skeletal system of some sort (framework for the body) but it isn't traditional bones. Also, a number of creatures can create spawn which do not require a specific type. Of course, these aren't templates - they'd just be generic spawn. Spawn actually are usually limited to type (Humanoid or Monstrous Humanoid typically). As to Dry Lich (the Walker in Wastes PRC ability, right?) I don't have Sandstorm to check on that, but as I understand it, it's a PRC ability. As such, yes, a 'forged would technically qualify for that if warforged are eligible for the PRC. By the same logic, a warforged can become a Construct via the Green Star Adept PRC, but I think in both cases a DM would rule against such ridiculousness.
Owl_diDeneith 07-03-07, 07:10 PM	All I have to add to this conversation. The Forge of War. Pg 85 The Woeforged? :D Ok biological / pseudo-scientific speculation aside - does anyone have an idea of how YOU would make a "Woeforged", template? Add a pre-existing skeleton template, would you make up something new, would they be something like the "Dread Marshal" "Mohrg", "Boneclaw", "Grimweird", would it be intelligent? malignant? life-sucking? Or just splat the undead template onto a lvl 2 Warforged Fighter (Which doesn't change them much - take away constitution, make healing from negative energy =1/2, and give the slightly added undead immunikties). Would you make it a lich? Can a high enough spellforged, or cleric/warforged become undead? Vulnerabilities ? Silver, Sunlight, Fire, Good, Positive Energy? Does it retain skills / feats? Or lose them? Obviously someone in Karrnath would pay lots for this, and hey so might Vol. But really - the only reason is to get cheap/low power wf juggernauts/ constructs. That can be controlled. Oh and maybe to save a few wf from melting into rust when they hit -10
Symar 07-03-07, 07:37 PM	As far as we know WF live forever anyway, so if that holds true, I don't see why one would care too much to become a lich.
Rekko 07-04-07, 11:12 PM	To my observation, I find that undead(well zombies and skeletons) and construct are very much similar. They both are mindless/soul-less magically animated beings. A dead Warforged (living construct) that is raised from the dead would become a construct... ? So, I think that the point of doing a warforged zombie or skeleton is pointless. A warforged undead to me would turn around undead such as ghosts, wraiths, mummies, vampires, liches (like the point that we know no warforged who died naturally) or other incorporal or intelligent undead. Rekko
DarkAvatar 07-08-07, 12:04 PM	I've also always held a special fascinated by the idea of an Undead warforged and even ran a campaign a while back with em... called em the "MournForged" (I can't claim credit for this name... I stole it off these very forums about 1/2 a year ago :P can't remember who coined it) and in my campaign they where a byproduct of the Mourning as well as the a large backlash of necromantic energy as a powerful Karnnath Necromancer attempted to unleash a powerfull necromantic spell to survive the effects of the mourning (it obviously failed and instead infused the warforged that where engaging him) Anyways... I use them as a group of reoccurring villains in my campaign.... I've pretty much tweaked em to make them as tough as nails (or in this case... undead nails :P ) as they're combining the better two halves of Constructs and undead with a dash of free thought :P PS: I must get Forge of War..... and read that bit on the woeforged... whoever they are