Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lafarallin 06-19-07, 02:05 PM	Was reading the spell description for alter self and it states, "you assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form." Warforged are obviously living constructs. Are there any other living constructs or is this spell worthless for a warforged?
Loki5654 06-19-07, 02:32 PM	Living Construct is a Subtype not a Type. A WF's Type is Construct.
Lafarallin 06-19-07, 04:21 PM	Living Construct is a Subtype not a Type. A WF's Type is Construct. That explains that then. For some reason I was under the impression it was a type, not subtype. Thank you.
DragoonDarkfire 06-19-07, 07:13 PM	Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaait a minuet. Are you saying a Warforged can take on the form of an Iron Golem?
Lafarallin 06-19-07, 07:53 PM	Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaait a minuet. Are you saying a Warforged can take on the form of an Iron Golem? Hence what I was wondering. ;)
lukelightning 06-19-07, 07:56 PM	Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaait a minuet. Are you saying a Warforged can take on the form of an Iron Golem? Or an animated object. You can be a killer chair!
Lafarallin 06-20-07, 12:22 AM	I'm guessing the maximum HD issue comes into play here. Yes it would be nice to take the form of an iron golem, but the max HD of the form you assume can only be 5. ...and if this is the case, wouldn't this make the spell pretty useless to warforged? There are very few constructs that are 5 HD or less.
DragoonDarkfire 06-20-07, 12:43 AM	I'm guessing the maximum HD issue comes into play here. Yes it would be nice to take the form of an iron golem, but the max HD of the form you assume can only be 5. ...and if this is the case, wouldn't this make the spell pretty useless to warforged? There are very few constructs that are 5 HD or less. KEY WORD: Effigy... :eek:
Lafarallin 06-20-07, 01:21 AM	KEY WORD: Effigy... :eek: Well not sure what is with all the semi-sarcastic, and short comments. You'd think the forums aren't for asking questions and hoping for a little clarity. So what you're saying is you can take upon the likeness of an iron golem per this spell. Although this doesn't grant much, it does grant the natural armor of an iron golem.
Lafarallin 06-20-07, 01:22 AM	Double Post
ArcTan 06-20-07, 02:13 AM	Well not sure what is with all the semi-sarcastic, and short comments. You'd think the forums aren't for asking questions and hoping for a little clarity. A lot of us assume that other people have read the rules and know certain basic things. Effigy is a template you can apply to an ordinary creature -- like, say, a creature of the Animal type -- to make it a Construct. A Warforged could, for instance, transform into an Effigy Dog or Effigy Horse (which would look just like a real Horse except on close examination). So what you're saying is you can take upon the likeness of an iron golem per this spell. Although this doesn't grant much, it does grant the natural armor of an iron golem. No, you could not. An Iron Golem has 18 base hit dice. Alter self only allows you to become a creature of 5 hit dice or lower. There are very few Constructs that fit this category. Exceptions include other versions of Warforged (the Warforged Charger and Warforged Scout), Animated Objects, Homunculi, and Effigy creatures.
Lafarallin 06-20-07, 11:21 AM	A lot of us assume that other people have read the rules and know certain basic things. There are a lot of rules in a lot of books. I'm fairly new to 3.5 myself having transfered from 2nd Edition. I also don't have a whole lot of time to pour over books hunting for often, not easily located rules. So I appreciate your time to help answer this...I know a lot of you have far more knowledge about this game then I ever will. Effigy is a template you can apply to an ordinary creature -- like, say, a creature of the Animal type -- to make it a Construct. A Warforged could, for instance, transform into an Effigy Dog or Effigy Horse (which would look just like a real Horse except on close examination). Where would I be able to find the Effigy template? Keep in mind that I'm a player not a DM, so some books are pretty much off limits to me...generally speaking. P.S. - For those that feel my questions are completely daft and beneath people such as yourselves, merely ignore my posts and move on to more cerebral engagements. ;)
DarkWarriorKarg 06-20-07, 12:40 PM	P.S. - For those that feel my questions are completely daft and beneath people such as yourselves, merely ignore my posts and move on to more cerebral engagements. ;) On this board? You ARE new here. Complete arcane, I believe. Effigy makes alter self for the WF REAL useful.:D Presenting... The story of Brother, a warforged spy, who has taken up the cause of freeing his fellows from their indentured servitude in Thrane and Karrnath.
TiwazTyrsfist 06-20-07, 01:29 PM	Personally, I think turning into an animated large rug or tapestry and then holding still would be an excellent way to hide. Or a table.
Cifer 06-20-07, 01:32 PM	One of the most interesting "basic" forms is indeed the Warforged Charger - get a Large size for free. Of course, for non-combatant wizards it's not quite as interesting, but a fighter/artificer or other gish (=warrior/mage hybrid build) might be interested.
Kamikaze Chicken 06-20-07, 01:35 PM	MM2 also has the clock work horrors which are an interesting choice.. and also i think the nimble wright fall sinto 5 hd. oh and what about some of those homonculi created for eberron? fun options if ya wanna play tough though i think that effigy is nasty. KAMIKAZE! :chicken:
Lafarallin 06-20-07, 01:59 PM	Okay, well thank you for the information. I really appreciate the detail orientated responses. I'll check all the suggested books when I get access to them.
ArcTan 06-21-07, 02:28 AM	One of the most interesting "basic" forms is indeed the Warforged Charger - get a Large size for free. Of course, for non-combatant wizards it's not quite as interesting, but a fighter/artificer or other gish (=warrior/mage hybrid build) might be interested. It's not "free". It's one spell level higher than casting enlarge person, so it means the Warforged gish actually finds Large size more expensive than a standard humanoid one.
Archangel62 06-21-07, 03:09 AM	Personally, I think turning into an animated large rug or tapestry and then holding still would be an excellent way to hide. Or a table. I can see it now "Book, transform yourself into a table, we'll put on overalls and say that we're delivering furniture and smuggle ourselves into the castle."
Kaladon7779 06-21-07, 07:55 AM	Alright, somebody needs to explain to me the mechanics on how this works. I understand completely where it says that Warforged are type Construct and Sub-type Living Construct. It also says in the Eberron books that Warforged are for all game purposes Living Constructions. A couple of things I've noted 1. Alter Self You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. How is a Rug, or a Book, considered a Construct or creature, and what sub-type would it be? 2. Effigys are a template? Creature Template? kind of important since Alter Self also says this You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype. So lets use the Complete Arcane picture of a Lion Effigy. Creature is Lion with the Effigy Template. Aren't those kind of conflicting Rules? 3. It was noted that me that Effigy would allow a Warforged to use the Spell Polymorph to become an Iron Golem? Is this true becouse according to Effigy you remove Living Construct and you are just type Construct where Polymorph says right in the first line. This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature Finally I guess one of the main questions I have with this is; If Warforged are type Constructs, then shouldn't they have all the Construct Traits? Simple becouse everything else of type Construct or Undead or Giant has all of there Type Traits with them.
DragoonDarkfire 06-21-07, 10:15 AM	1. Alter Self You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. How is a Rug, or a Book, considered a Construct or creature, and what sub-type would it be? Animated rug or book or table. 2. Effigys are a template? Creature Template? kind of important since Alter Self also says this You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype. So lets use the Complete Arcane picture of a Lion Effigy. Creature is Lion with the Effigy Template. Aren't those kind of conflicting Rules? HOLD IT! It says you can't take a creature with a template even if it doesn't change the type. However in this instance we aren't dealing with a lion who's been empowered by good to become a celestial lion. We're dealing with a construct made to look like a lion. So personally as a DM I would allow it. 3. It was noted that me that Effigy would allow a Warforged to use the Spell Polymorph to become an Iron Golem? Is this true becouse according to Effigy you remove Living Construct and you are just type Construct where Polymorph says right in the first line. This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature To a warforged, living creature is a bit more... umm... questionable. I would personally house rule that if a Warforged were to polymorph himself into a golem that he would retain the living construct subtype. Doesn't go against rules and keeps a warforged in it's element. Finally I guess one of the main questions I have with this is; If Warforged are type Constructs, then shouldn't they have all the Construct Traits? Simple becouse everything else of type Construct or Undead or Giant has all of there Type Traits with them. Yea but they have the LIVING construct subtype. Living construct takes away and adds a few things to the basic construct structure (specifically a constitution score).
Lafarallin 06-21-07, 10:43 AM	It's not "free". It's one spell level higher than casting enlarge person, so it means the Warforged gish actually finds Large size more expensive than a standard humanoid one. Just wanted to point out that "enlarge person" is useless for a warforged character. It clearly states humanoid, which warforged are not. On a side note, enlarge person lasts 1 minute a level, compared to alter self that lasts 10 minutes a level.
Lafarallin 06-21-07, 11:38 AM	Is there any official ruling on how polymorph/alter self works as a construct or an undead for that matter?
lukelightning 06-21-07, 01:55 PM	I'm not sure, but I don't think you can turn into templated creatures, so effigy things are technically out.
Lafarallin 06-21-07, 02:16 PM	I'm not sure, but I don't think you can turn into templated creatures, so effigy things are technically out. Under Alter Self it directly states: You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype. I understand DragoonDarkFire has some house rule but by RAW this is clearly not allowed.
DragoonDarkfire 06-21-07, 02:21 PM	Under Alter Self it directly states: You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype. I understand DragoonDarkFire has some house rule but by RAW this is clearly not allowed. RAW has a way of contradicting itself in several areas. And the fact that Alter Self was never made with Warforged in mind kinda lends us as DM's to have to THINK about this stuff and hose rule what we think is best rather then just blindly following what Wizards gives us.
Lafarallin 06-21-07, 03:51 PM	RAW has a way of contradicting itself in several areas. And the fact that Alter Self was never made with Warforged in mind kinda lends us as DM's to have to THINK about this stuff and hose rule what we think is best rather then just blindly following what Wizards gives us. I would love to follow your ruling but as far as what is best, I would have to say I don't see how what you're proposing is best. It would allow me to use a 4th level spell to become an iron golem. Very powerful ability that is generally prevented until you cast the 8th level variation of polymorph any object. Basically with your ruling as a warforged I'm able to basically treat a polymorph spell much like a polymorph any object. In the sense that I can become a golem (as a construct) where any other non-construct couldn't until they had polymorph any object. Little overpowered maybe? Maybe not the "best" for game balance? Don't get me wrong, I would love that option especially with effigies and such. However, per RAW going to be a hard sell to my DM.
DragoonDarkfire 06-21-07, 04:18 PM	I would love to follow your ruling but as far as what is best, I would have to say I don't see how what you're proposing is best. It would allow me to use a 4th level spell to become an iron golem. Very powerful ability that is generally prevented until you cast the 8th level variation of polymorph any object. 1) You could always rule out Polymorph like most DM's. 2) Iron golems have 18HD (says in the description their HP is 18d10+30) and Polymorph can only transform you into a creature of 15HD or lower. So Iron Golem's out. 3) I also house ruled that a warforged who transforms himself into another construct retains his living construct subtype. Ergo, he's still living. Basically with your ruling as a warforged I'm able to basically treat a polymorph spell much like a polymorph any object. In the sense that I can become a golem (as a construct) where any other non-construct couldn't until they had polymorph any object. Not really. It just means that a warforged can transform his already semi-organic body into that of another living construct with a lower level spell. He's still living by my rules, just in a seemingly unliving form. Little overpowered maybe? Maybe not the "best" for game balance? Don't get me wrong, I would love that option especially with effigies and such. However, per RAW going to be a hard sell to my DM. Nothing you have mentioned has anything to do with Effigies.
Lafarallin 06-21-07, 04:35 PM	1) Iron golems have 18HD (says in the description their HP is 18d10+30) and Polymorph can only transform you into a creature of 15HD or lower. So Iron Golem's out. Okay now you're just splitting hairs. Fine a stone golem then, either way it is something a non-construct couldn't become till polymorph any object became available. Nothing you have mentioned has anything to do with Effigies. You said for alter self I could become an effigy. The point was this is grossly inaccurate since that is a template. That was my point.
DragoonDarkfire 06-21-07, 05:20 PM	Okay now you're just splitting hairs. Fine a stone golem then, either way it is something a non-construct couldn't become till polymorph any object became available. The only reason a humanoid couldn't become a construct until he received an 8th level spell is because the construct type is powerful. You're immune to death effects, poison, disease and you don't need to make a fort save etc. Applying the living construct subtype to that takes away many of a constructs overpowering qualities so I feel that a warforged who becomes a living flesh golem really isn't that much more powerful then a human transforming into an Ogre. You said for alter self I could become an effigy. The point was this is grossly inaccurate since that is a template. That was my point. Yea that's why I house ruled it because RAW fails to cover this and as such I felt as though I should take the law into my own hands. I mentioned this before and you said I was wrong. Then you went off to explain why I was wrong without actually confronting my house rule and using golems as your example. Then when I point out that I was wrong by giving the same explanation you gave before despite the fact I already said why I went against that rule specifically for warforged. Now can you give me a good reason NOT to use Effigys for warforged other than "Because the books says so"?
Lafarallin 06-21-07, 05:58 PM	DragoonDarkfire, I really have nothing to say about your posts anymore. You're talking about House rules, I'm looking for book rules. Do whatever you want in your campaign. As for my original post I'll clarify, I'm looking for RAW. If there isn't anything RAW for warforged using these spells, then just say so. Then we'll have to house rule.
Kaladon7779 06-21-07, 06:04 PM	Well since i'm the one that posted the corrections, I have to say Sorry Dragoondarkfire but your wrong. Polymorph does not turn you into Undead or Constructs becouse it clearly states in RAW that you have to assume a living form. House rules are house rules and I'm looking for RAW and that's it. Effigy does not work, you said in a previous post one word Effigy, and it clearly states in the rules that you can't assume something with a template, that's clearly in RAW. House ruling that you can it like basically making Warforged more stronger, or anybody for that matter stronger.
DragoonDarkfire 06-21-07, 06:36 PM	DragoonDarkfire, I really have nothing to say about your posts anymore. You're talking about House rules, I'm looking for book rules. Do whatever you want in your campaign. As for my original post I'll clarify, I'm looking for RAW. If there isn't anything RAW for warforged using these spells, then just say so. Then we'll have to house rule. Well then I have no idea. And you were the one to say that my house rules were unbalanced. If you don't wanna argue about house rules then don't bring them up for the sake of argument. I merely brought them up for the sake of suggestion.
Dragom 06-21-07, 08:50 PM	But you still get Homunculi and Animated objects up to large size. Yes, you will ask what about the subtype (living) doesn't the type and AND subtype have to match? But Humanoid (Human) Wizards can Alterself to become Humanoid (Goblin) Wizards right? And Animated Objects does give you tables, lamps, swords, ropes, carpets and statues of various types. Makes it a very different spell then it is for Humanoid wizards.
Lafarallin 06-21-07, 10:15 PM	Double Post
Lafarallin 06-21-07, 10:17 PM	But you still get Homunculi and Animated objects up to large size. Yes, you will ask what about the subtype (living) doesn't the type and AND subtype have to match? But Humanoid (Human) Wizards can Alterself to become Humanoid (Goblin) Wizards right? And Animated Objects does give you tables, lamps, swords, ropes, carpets and statues of various types. Makes it a very different spell then it is for Humanoid wizards. No the subtype doesn't have to match at all and isn't even considered. Pretty much what it looks like is alter self you could turn into all those objects you mention (animated objects). However, you can not do the same with polymorph. Which is pretty funny considering polymorph has less utility in that sense then alter self, in this one case.
ArcTan 06-21-07, 11:42 PM	Alright, somebody needs to explain to me the mechanics on how this works. I understand completely where it says that Warforged are type Construct and Sub-type Living Construct. It also says in the Eberron books that Warforged are for all game purposes Living Constructions. A couple of things I've noted 1. Alter Self You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. How is a Rug, or a Book, considered a Construct or creature, and what sub-type would it be? http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/animatedObject.htm Animated Objects. They're normally made by the animate objects spell, but nothing says they can't come into existence in other ways. Since they're inanimate matter with no living structure given movement and a semblance of will by magic, they count as a Construct in every definitional sense. Their Type is offically Construct, with no Subtype. 2. Effigys are a template? Creature Template? kind of important since Alter Self also says this You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype. So lets use the Complete Arcane picture of a Lion Effigy. Creature is Lion with the Effigy Template. Aren't those kind of conflicting Rules? You're right. I completely overlooked that. Alter self can't be used for Effigies (which, come to think of it, is why I never did that with my Warforged character). Mea culpa. 3. It was noted that me that Effigy would allow a Warforged to use the Spell Polymorph to become an Iron Golem? Is this true becouse according to Effigy you remove Living Construct and you are just type Construct where Polymorph says right in the first line. This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature No, Effigy has nothing to do with becoming an Iron Golem. You could *never* become an Iron Golem with polymorph anyway, because Iron Golems have too many HD (they have 18 HD and polymorph caps at 15). But you're right, Warforged can't use polymorph on themselves at all. Finally I guess one of the main questions I have with this is; If Warforged are type Constructs, then shouldn't they have all the Construct Traits? Simple becouse everything else of type Construct or Undead or Giant has all of there Type Traits with them. They're of Subtype Living Construct, which means they have Construct traits *except* for the specific exceptions Living Construct creates. It's the same with other, similar Subtypes like Native Outsider.
ArcTan 06-21-07, 11:43 PM	No the subtype doesn't have to match at all and isn't even considered. Pretty much what it looks like is alter self you could turn into all those objects you mention (animated objects). However, you can not do the same with polymorph. Which is pretty funny considering polymorph has less utility in that sense then alter self, in this one case. Flavorwise, alter self is much more tied to your, well, *self*, and polymorph isn't. Which means it's a lot more valuable for those individuals whose selves are special, like being of a nonliving Type.
ArcTan 06-21-07, 11:47 PM	HOLD IT! It says you can't take a creature with a template even if it doesn't change the type. However in this instance we aren't dealing with a lion who's been empowered by good to become a celestial lion. We're dealing with a construct made to look like a lion. So personally as a DM I would allow it. Well, as a DM I would disagree with you. The ruling applies to all templates, whether acquired or inherited. Celestial and Fiendish are *inherited* templates -- Celestial Lions are born that way, and the race of Celestial Lions originated in the Upper Planes, not as descendants of mundane lions from the Prime (at least according to my hazy knowledge of planar lore). It's clearly a balance ruling because of the way you can stack up power by using templates without increasing HD. It's the same reason you can't become a monster with advanced HD or with PC class levels. To a warforged, living creature is a bit more... umm... questionable. I would personally house rule that if a Warforged were to polymorph himself into a golem that he would retain the living construct subtype. Doesn't go against rules and keeps a warforged in it's element. It totally goes against the rules. There are no rules like this anywhere for polymorph-type spells, at all. By the existing rules Warforged, though they're "living constructs", are *not* living creatures, and I'd like to keep it that way. A lot of the interesting stuff about being a Warforged gets leeched out the more you try to make the rules treat Warforged as "metal-covered humans". Warforged are still Constructs -- they lack the living systems that connect all living creatures with each other. A Warforged just doesn't have it in him to become a living thing, not with simple magic like polymorph or alter self. Yea but they have the LIVING construct subtype. Living construct takes away and adds a few things to the basic construct structure (specifically a constitution score). Living Construct never says Warforged will from now on be considered living creatures for the purpose of spells and effects, so they *still* have the basic trait of a Construct of not being a "living creature" for such purposes.
ArcTan 06-21-07, 11:50 PM	But you still get Homunculi and Animated objects up to large size. Yes, you will ask what about the subtype (living) doesn't the type and AND subtype have to match? Absolutely not. Nothing says that anywhere, at all. By the way, "Human" is only a Subtype if you're using the variant rule in Races of Destiny. Not that it doesn't make sense, but by the core RAW, Humans are Humanoids with no Subtype. Personally, I think that if Goblinoid and Reptilian are Subtypes, Human, Elf, Dwarf, Orc, and the other broad racial categories should be too. But that's me.
Lafarallin 06-21-07, 11:53 PM	The only thing I would disagree with is saying Warforged are not living. They most certainly are living, are called "living constructs", and can be healed by healing spells. I know when reading about warforged somewhere, I can look later, it says they are made of living materials. You can easily enough become more living and benefit fully from healing spells, but still be considered warforged (living construct) too.
yrogerg 06-21-07, 11:55 PM	By the way, "Human" is only a Subtype if you're using the variant rule in Races of Destiny. Not that it doesn't make sense, but by the core RAW, Humans are Humanoids with no Subtype. I do agree that Humans are not statted in the Monster manual, and thus the subtype does not come up there, but for at least one example of the subtype that predates RoD considerably... Empty Vessels?
ArcTan 06-21-07, 11:57 PM	I do agree that Humans are not statted in the Monster manual, and thus the subtype does not come up there, but for at least one example of the subtype that predates RoD considerably... Empty Vessels? I don't have the book on me. Does it actually *describe* a Human Subtype, or just list them as "Humanoid (Human)" without explanation?
ArcTan 06-21-07, 11:59 PM	The only thing I would disagree with is saying Warforged are not living. They most certainly are living, are called "living constructs", and can be healed by healing spells. They're "living", but they're "living constructs", not "living creatures". Nothing actually says that they are to be considered "living creatures" for the sake of spells and effects, and the term comes up often enough as a term of art that we should use the rules' definition for it in order to be certain of what we mean -- and the books say that the Construct type are *not* living creatures (and the ECS's description of Living Construct nowhere contradicts that). Warforged, for instance, specifically do *not* respond to cure spells exactly as living creatures -- its effectivity is halved. I know when reading about warforged somewhere, I can look later, it says they are made of living materials. You can easily enough become more living and benefity fully from healing spell but still be considered warforged (living construct) too. Deathless benefit fully from cure spells but are emphatically not living creatures. That's not the definition of living creature -- the definition of living creature is being a creature whose Type is defined as a living creature.
yrogerg 06-22-07, 12:02 AM	http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/animatedObject.htm Animated Objects. They're normally made by the animate objects spell, but nothing says they can't come into existence in other ways. Since they're inanimate matter with no living structure given movement and a semblance of will by magic, they count as a Construct in every definitional sense. Note that even more cheesily, Astral Constructs are also Constructs, and are even statted out as non-unique monsters in the XPH, meaning you get your pick of Astral Construct abilities!
yrogerg 06-22-07, 12:05 AM	I don't have the book on me. Does it actually *describe* a Human Subtype, or just list them as "Humanoid (Human)" without explanation? Only as much as the (Orc), (Elf), (Dwarf), (Gnome), (Halfling), or (Gnoll) subtypes are ever described in a single sourcebook, ever. Which is to say... no.
Lafarallin 06-22-07, 12:06 AM	They're "living", but they're "living constructs", not "living creatures". Nothing actually says that they are to be considered "living creatures" for the sake of spells and effects, and the term comes up often enough as a term of art that we should use the rules' definition for it in order to be certain of what we mean -- and the books say that the Construct type are *not* living creatures (and the ECS's description of Living Construct nowhere contradicts that). ECS page 23 states, "Warforged are living constructs that combine aspects of both constructs and living creatures, as detailed below. and this HUGE statement further down same page.... --As living constructs, warforged can be affected by spells that target living creatures as well as by those that target constructs. I think this pretty much points to the fact that they are living, and can be the target of polymorph spells.
DragoonDarkfire 06-22-07, 12:09 AM	Well, as a DM I would disagree with you. The ruling applies to all templates, whether acquired or inherited. Celestial and Fiendish are *inherited* templates -- Celestial Lions are born that way, and the race of Celestial Lions originated in the Upper Planes, not as descendants of mundane lions from the Prime (at least according to my hazy knowledge of planar lore). It's clearly a balance ruling because of the way you can stack up power by using templates without increasing HD. It's the same reason you can't become a monster with advanced HD or with PC class levels. Well for the house rule I used I would ONLY allow Effigies and ONLY for warforged. So I would think that's balanced out... unless of course you think it wouldn't be. It totally goes against the rules. There are no rules like this anywhere for polymorph-type spells, at all. By the existing rules Warforged, though they're "living constructs", are *not* living creatures, and I'd like to keep it that way. A lot of the interesting stuff about being a Warforged gets leeched out the more you try to make the rules treat Warforged as "metal-covered humans". What? NOT living creature? Then tell me how a subtype called LIVING CONSTRUCT makes any sense? Or the fact that it states that living constructs have a constitution score, a score that is EXCLUSIVE to living creatures. I'm not saying warforged are "humans covered in metal". They're an alien race if we ever saw one. Their joints are made of wood, their bodies are plated with metal and their brought to life via ancient magics. I don't know what to call that but it's what they are. Warforged are still Constructs -- they lack the living systems that connect all living creatures with each other. A Warforged just doesn't have it in him to become a living thing, not with simple magic like polymorph or alter self. Which is why I made a house rule for them to become constructs with Polymorph, while retaining their living construct subtype to try and keep it balanced. There's no RAW that states that Warforged can do this and I might be contradicted in the future but I merely think that restricting a spell as versatile as Polymorph to everyone else is just giving the Warforged the short end of the stick. They're already shivved in the department of healing, unless there's an artificer in the party but the class is a bit heavy for new players, I just wanted to give Warforged a bit more equality that other races have. Oh and you're forgetting one of Edy's rules about the race. Unless specifically stated, treat Warforged as any other race. Living Construct never says Warforged will from now on be considered living creatures for the purpose of spells and effects, so they *still* have the basic trait of a Construct of not being a "living creature" for such purposes. The problem with your argument is that it's completely subjective and rather vague and opinionated. The crutch here is that Living Construct is exactly what it says. A being constructed from materials and given life. A Warforged is living in some way no matter how you examine it. The question of whether they have souls or not is subjective but the mere fact they have a constitution score means that they are alive. Of course you can't translate that into a game since no one really knows what a Constitution score is, it's just something that we as DM's and PC's know. Also: You're confronting my house rules with RAW. Whereas the mere POINT of house rules is to alter, ignore or fill in the gaps of RAW altogether. You're argument is completely pointless unless you can tell me how crunch wise it doesn't seem like a good idea.
ArcTan 06-22-07, 02:11 AM	Well for the house rule I used I would ONLY allow Effigies and ONLY for warforged. So I would think that's balanced out... unless of course you think it wouldn't be. I think its net effect would be to make alter self way, way, way more flexible and interesting for Warforged than it is for any Humanoid creature. Since alter self wasn't intended to be that powerful a spell, I don't think this is a good idea. What? NOT living creature? Then tell me how a subtype called LIVING CONSTRUCT makes any sense? Or the fact that it states that living constructs have a constitution score, a score that is EXCLUSIVE to living creatures. I'll give you this one, but only because I imperfectly remembered what the ECS actually says about it. *snip* Oh and you're forgetting one of Edy's rules about the race. Unless specifically stated, treat Warforged as any other race. That's one of Edy's rules, not one of my rules. It's a maxim that I actually really, really dislike. (Do Warforged have nipples? Doesn't say they don't! Do they have pancreases? Doesn't say they don't! Can they mate with Dragons to produce Half-Dragon offspring? Doesn't say they can't! Feh.) The problem with your argument is that it's completely subjective and rather vague and opinionated. The crutch here is that Living Construct is exactly what it says. A being constructed from materials and given life. A Warforged is living in some way no matter how you examine it. But they're not "living creatures", any more than the fact that they have a head, two arms and two legs makes them "humanoids" and therefore capable of using enlarge person. "Living creature" in D&D is much more specific than the vague way we use it as a laymen's term. A Lantern Archon doesn't appear "alive" in any traditional sense of the term but is a living creature for the purposes of spells and effects, because the Outsider Type counts as "living creatures". The question of whether they have souls or not is subjective but the mere fact they have a constitution score means that they are alive. Of course you can't translate that into a game since no one really knows what a Constitution score is, it's just something that we as DM's and PC's know. Also: You're confronting my house rules with RAW. Whereas the mere POINT of house rules is to alter, ignore or fill in the gaps of RAW altogether. You're argument is completely pointless unless you can tell me how crunch wise it doesn't seem like a good idea. It doesn't seem elegant to create a special exception for Warforged in a ruleset that's already incredibly messy. I would just let the Warforged become Constructs under 15 HD, and sigh about the fact that this does make them rather powerful. (Not *that* powerful, though -- all the good ones, like Golems, are too big to polymorph into.)
ArcTan 06-22-07, 02:13 AM	Good point, Lafarallin. I missed that. That means that Warforged *do* have a lot of Construct options from polymorph. Hmm. Not sure if I like that.
Lafarallin 06-22-07, 02:25 AM	Good point, Lafarallin. I missed that. That means that Warforged *do* have a lot of Construct options from polymorph. Hmm. Not sure if I like that. As a warforged wizard I kind of stumbled onto this. I don't think my DM is too keen on the idea either. ;)
ArcTan 06-22-07, 03:55 AM	As a warforged wizard I kind of stumbled onto this. I don't think my DM is too keen on the idea either. ;) Actually, I'm looking at it yet again, and polymorph's first line says you have to turn into "another living creature", which is a restriction over and above the Type restriction. So no, you can't turn into any Construct, only into any *Living* Construct (or one of the other creatures listed). So no, it's not that good. You can turn into a Troll but you can't turn into any kind of Golem or anything, only into other Warforged. I think this does make the Warforged Scorpion from Secrets of Xen'drik available, though.
Just another user 06-22-07, 04:32 AM	I can see it now "Book, transform yourself into a table, we'll put on overalls and say that we're delivering furniture and smuggle ourselves into the castle." Idea for a couple of characters, two warforged, male and female personalities, a druid and a sorcerer with Alter self and other similiar spells, they call themselves "the wonder twins". :D (they don't need to touch each other to use their powers but that would be a nice plus :) )
Kaladon7779 06-22-07, 07:32 AM	I don't have the book on me. Does it actually *describe* a Human Subtype, or just list them as "Humanoid (Human)" without explanation? Subtype human means that you take on the traits of a human, just as if you were making a Human Character. Just like if you were making a Humanoid (Elf), it would get all the bonuses of an Elf as the Subtype.
Kaladon7779 06-22-07, 08:18 AM	As a warforged wizard I kind of stumbled onto this. I don't think my DM is too keen on the idea either. ;) I'm very keen on players in my group that try to find things that work for them, shows me that they care about there character and want to experiment a bit. Makes me all warm inside....Just kidding, I don't get that excided. But I would rather see a player throw ideas out at me if this is possible to do rather then a player that just shows up everyweek and is like ok heres my character hes so weak compared to everybody else in the group, then i'm like "great job Eeyore" But I am a strict GM, I keep the challenges coming to my players. And when I see other GM's like Dragoon here throwing all these house rules that he makes just kind of munkinizes the whole idea of roleplaying, I mean allowing Effigy? No offense Dragoon make all the houserules you want and I'm a GM that likes hearing suggestions. However, Warforged first of all aren't ment to hide from public. The hatred of people is part of your race persona. If your going to play a warforged your going to have to just deal with your physical appearance or until you can find some other way. Here's a good example, one of my players is playing this very primitive race that is practially threatening to all civilizations, when he made his character he wanted a hat of disguise so he can go in towns un-noticed, i simple said screw that, you want all the benefits of that race then your dealing with all of its faults as well, that's just part of the game. Same goes with the warforged. This is unique race that no other race can duplicate people. Certain spells are just not ment to work on this race. Just like no other race can use there whole body as an enchantment for reduced cost when it comes to magical items. They also have there own line of spells called infusions that 60% of them only on Constructs/Living Constructs "ONLY". Now here's my fealing towards Alter Self, from the first paragraph only. You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. Bolded your normal form as in this notes to me that yes you can only take on type construct but of your form, as in humanoid shaped, two arms, two legs, one head, if installed one giant *****. Type Humanoid, an Elf becomes a Human, a Dwarf becomes a Halfling, A Human becomes a Dwarf. I understand where all of you are saying that Alter-self/Construct, but to change from a Human looking thing to an animated carpet just doesn't fit the "Form" persona. Plus an animated Rug is not living, Warforged have Bio-organic parts, they are effected by mind effecting so they have some kind of organic brain, remember there half living and half machine. So when you turn into an animated Clock or an Animated Table, where does the Bio-organic parts go? Simply put it when an human turns into an elf they parts don't go anywhere. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself. Bolded your own kind as in other warforged. To clarify all of this Warforged should be Type Humanoid, Subtype Living Construct becouse for all purposes there treated just like every other race. Now I can understand some players frustration that some spells simply don't work very well for warforged, but some spells don't really work well for other races either. If somebody is playing a Construct, and they want to hide there appearance; then really the only option they have is Disguise Self That spell will make you look like a human, an elf, an orc. Its completely within RAW.
Kaladon7779 06-22-07, 08:39 AM	Note some spells that i've found that don't really work for Warforged. Alter Self Enlarge Reduce Person The above spells say specifically Humanoid, so that sucks that you can't use those. Well neither could an Ogre Mage, or a Minotaur Shaman. Now its sad yes, but heres the balance factor these spells "ALSO" do not effect Warforged Charm Person - yes it says specifically by RAW, makes a Humanoid creature Sleep - Says specifically, does not effect Constructs Now i don't have a book with me but I remember they are not subject to fatigue or exhaustion So.. Ray of Enfeeblement - Worthless Enervation - would be nice to cast on a warforged except they are immune to Energy Drain. And that's just some
DragoonDarkfire 06-22-07, 10:16 AM	I think its net effect would be to make alter self way, way, way more flexible and interesting for Warforged than it is for any Humanoid creature. Since alter self wasn't intended to be that powerful a spell, I don't think this is a good idea. Oh really? Well then lets think on this. By the rules you give a WF wizard could still transform himself into an animated object using alter self. What's interesting about this is that it doesn't say what the animated object is either. Not to mention that a Warforged could transform himself up to a large animated object and this could be ANYTHING. Statues, chairs, tables, swords, couches, paintings. Not to mention the fact that a WF could hide himself almost perfectly using this spell then come out and attack a guy in an almost completely unseen fashion. If we add in Effigys all it really means is that a WF can assume the form of an animal/humanoid/magical beast/monstrous humanoid as well. It still caps off at 5HD. So when you look at it like this a WF using alter self is already more versatile then a human using it. At this point the only thing to do would be to either completely rule out alter self for WF altogether or try and limit it in some fashion. Have any better ideas? That's one of Edy's rules, not one of my rules. It's a maxim that I actually really, really dislike. (Do Warforged have nipples? Doesn't say they don't! Do they have pancreases? Doesn't say they don't! Can they mate with Dragons to produce Half-Dragon offspring? Doesn't say they can't! Feh.) All those examples are almost completely irrelevant, save for the half dragon thing but it specifically says that WF don't have a gender so mating is kinda out of the question :P. What Edy meant by that is to stop trying to over complicate the WF race and making a whole bunch of separate rules just for them. I admit that's what I did but this seemed more like a direct contradiction of RAW material then simple fluff. Also your argument goes both ways (can they feel pain? Doesn't say they DO! Are they affected by a mind flayers devour ability? Doesn't say they ARE!) But they're not "living creatures", any more than the fact that they have a head, two arms and two legs makes them "humanoids" and therefore capable of using enlarge person. "Living creature" in D&D is much more specific than the vague way we use it as a laymen's term. A Lantern Archon doesn't appear "alive" in any traditional sense of the term but is a living creature for the purposes of spells and effects, because the Outsider Type counts as "living creatures". Yea and a Warforged is a living creature for the purposes of spells and effects because the living construct subtype counts as a "living creature" I believe you just contradicted yourself :P This is Eberron a high fantasy setting where magic is prevalent in a myriad of different ways. Just because a Warforged was built rather then born from the womb of a creature (or plane for that matter) doesn't make it any less living. It doesn't seem elegant to create a special exception for Warforged in a ruleset that's already incredibly messy. I would just let the Warforged become Constructs under 15 HD, and sigh about the fact that this does make them rather powerful. (Not *that* powerful, though -- all the good ones, like Golems, are too big to polymorph into.) Doesn't seem rather elegant? My friend this is a time of discovery. Warforged being the new race that they are could have just discovered that these spells affected them in this particular fashion. Despite what the Players Handbook may tell you magic isn't written down with a set of cold laws restricted to ________ or _________. It is a living prevalent force that shapes Eberron and affects things in ways people can't imagine. Humans are already finding out new things about magic and who knows what else they might discover? Is it really that "un elegant" to have your Warforged wizard learn Polymorph (a spell that your common magewright or adept might never be able to learn) and then come to the discovery that it affects him differently then the human and elf wizards he's encountered?
Lafarallin 06-22-07, 11:34 AM	I Now here's my fealing towards Alter Self, from the first paragraph only. You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. Bolded your normal form as in this notes to me that yes you can only take on type construct but of your form, as in humanoid shaped, two arms, two legs, one head, if installed one giant *****. You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. A construct is a construct, it doesn't have to be a two armed, two legged construct just because you are.
Lafarallin 06-22-07, 11:51 AM	Actually, I'm looking at it yet again, and polymorph's first line says you have to turn into "another living creature", which is a restriction over and above the Type restriction. So no, you can't turn into any Construct, only into any *Living* Construct (or one of the other creatures listed). Well here is the one thing that still makes wonder: The subject's creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form. Does this mean you lose your subtype if the creature you turn into doesn't have a subtype? Of in the case of a creature without a subtype, does your type change but subtype stay the same since it doesn't have one?
Cifer 06-22-07, 02:46 PM	Does this mean you lose your subtype if the creature you turn into doesn't have a subtype? Of in the case of a creature without a subtype, does your type change but subtype stay the same since it doesn't have one? I'd guess at the first one - most subtypes exist only for one kind of type and wouldn't make sense for any other. Can you tell me what traits a outsider [living construct] has? And Kaladon, your interpretation of "form" is just wrong, as evidenced by Lafarellin. Type has a very specific meaning in D&D: It refers to humanoid, monstrous humanoid, construct, outsiders and all the others.
ArcTan 06-22-07, 03:01 PM	But I am a strict GM, I keep the challenges coming to my players. And when I see other GM's like Dragoon here throwing all these house rules that he makes just kind of munkinizes the whole idea of roleplaying, I mean allowing Effigy? No offense Dragoon make all the houserules you want and I'm a GM that likes hearing suggestions. However, Warforged first of all aren't ment to hide from public. The hatred of people is part of your race persona. If your going to play a warforged your going to have to just deal with your physical appearance or until you can find some other way. Well, dude, for one thing, alter self is a 2nd-level spell slot and it only works for 10 min/lvl. Which means that a low-level Warforged *can't* use it to "live a normal life", since he can only take on the new form for an hour or so at a time. Moreover, using it to deliberately try to appear like a member of the new race rather than simply using the new race's abilities always counts as "crafting a Disguise" and takes the Disguise skill, so the WF will still have a hard time making a convincing-looking Human. Here's a good example, one of my players is playing this very primitive race that is practially threatening to all civilizations, when he made his character he wanted a hat of disguise so he can go in towns un-noticed, i simple said screw that, you want all the benefits of that race then your dealing with all of its faults as well, that's just part of the game. ...Or you could've used the in-game way to deal with hats of disguise, which is that they are very expensive and out of the price range of 1st-level PCs in general, to say nothing of 1st-level PCs that come from an uncivilized primitive race that doesn't make complex magic items. You could also have noticed that a hat of disguise still only gives you a +10 bonus to Disguise, so if you're playing a low-Cha race without Disguise as a class skill, you still run a very high risk of getting caught (because you didn't get the look quite right, because you talk funny, etc.) And a hat of disguise, unlike alter self, is only an illusion. Anyone who touches you or studies you carefully gets a Will save to see right through it. Same goes with the warforged. This is unique race that no other race can duplicate people. Certain spells are just not ment to work on this race. Just like no other race can use there whole body as an enchantment for reduced cost when it comes to magical items. They also have there own line of spells called infusions that 60% of them only on Constructs/Living Constructs "ONLY". Now here's my fealing towards Alter Self, from the first paragraph only. You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. Bolded your normal form as in this notes to me that yes you can only take on type construct but of your form, as in humanoid shaped, two arms, two legs, one head, if installed one giant *****. Er, no. You have the same Type *as* your normal form. That doesn't mean you *are* in your normal form. It means the opposite -- that one of the *only* things you keep from your normal form is the Type. It is *intentional* that, for example, an Aasimar can use this spell to become a Lantern Archon. Type Humanoid, an Elf becomes a Human, a Dwarf becomes a Halfling, A Human becomes a Dwarf. I understand where all of you are saying that Alter-self/Construct, but to change from a Human looking thing to an animated carpet just doesn't fit the "Form" persona. Plus an animated Rug is not living, Warforged have Bio-organic parts, they are effected by mind effecting so they have some kind of organic brain, remember there half living and half machine. So when you turn into an animated Clock or an Animated Table, where does the Bio-organic parts go? Simply put it when an human turns into an elf they parts don't go anywhere. When an Aasimar becomes a Lantern Archon, all his parts disappear and he turns into a ball of light. It's transmutation. It's magic. I'm not saying I don't think that the Animated Objects thing was an unintended and borderline abusive loophole in the rules, but I don't really like the way you're arguing here. Humans and Elves *look* the same, but their internal physiology must be radically different (what with Elves' ridiculous lifespan). To turn from one to the other, alter self must be able to effect radical, major physical change. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself. Bolded your own kind as in other warforged. Well, sure. You can change into a member of your own kind *or* something else of the same Type. To clarify all of this Warforged should be Type Humanoid, Subtype Living Construct becouse for all purposes there treated just like every other race. Oh, for cripes' sake. This is exactly what I was afraid of. They *are not* Type Humanoid. They are Type Construct. That is how they were invented and how they're defined as. "Just like every other race" refers to in every way *not* mentioned in the rules. The rules very definitely do very clearly say that Warforged are Constructs. Now I can understand some players frustration that some spells simply don't work very well for warforged, but some spells don't really work well for other races either. If somebody is playing a Construct, and they want to hide there appearance; then really the only option they have is Disguise Self That spell will make you look like a human, an elf, an orc. Its completely within RAW. Alter self won't make a Warforged look like a Human by RAW. It may make a Warforged look like a Human-shaped Animated Object, but that's hardly convincing. FWIW, I think with a little tinkering the flavor makes a lot of sense. The essence of a Construct is that it's a thing without living systems of the traditional kind, that moves and acts by magic. Even Warforged still share this nature -- they smell without real noses, they taste without real tongues, they can "eat" and "drink" without any stomach and think without any brain. They're dead matter that *imitates* life. It makes sense that magic can transmute them into any arbitrary kind of dead matter with the spark of life in it.
ArcTan 06-22-07, 03:07 PM	Oh really? Well then lets think on this. By the rules you give a WF wizard could still transform himself into an animated object using alter self. What's interesting about this is that it doesn't say what the animated object is either. Not to mention that a Warforged could transform himself up to a large animated object and this could be ANYTHING. Statues, chairs, tables, swords, couches, paintings. Not to mention the fact that a WF could hide himself almost perfectly using this spell then come out and attack a guy in an almost completely unseen fashion. If we add in Effigys all it really means is that a WF can assume the form of an animal/humanoid/magical beast/monstrous humanoid as well. It still caps off at 5HD. So when you look at it like this a WF using alter self is already more versatile then a human using it. At this point the only thing to do would be to either completely rule out alter self for WF altogether or try and limit it in some fashion. Have any better ideas? Animated Objects are a loophole, like I said. When alter self was written no one thought about the possibility of PC Constructs using the spell. But I still think it's fine as a limitation. A Warforged can't look like a *person* with this spell. An Animated Object is clearly an artificial construct made by magic, just as a Warforged is. An Effigy Creature effectively allows the Warforged to disguise itself as *anything* without a Will save to disbelieve. I think that's too much. It's the same reason an Aasimar can't simply transform itself into any animal or humanoid with the Celestial template. All those examples are almost completely irrelevant, save for the half dragon thing but it specifically says that WF don't have a gender so mating is kinda out of the question :P. What Edy meant by that is to stop trying to over complicate the WF race and making a whole bunch of separate rules just for them. I admit that's what I did but this seemed more like a direct contradiction of RAW material then simple fluff. Also your argument goes both ways (can they feel pain? Doesn't say they DO! Are they affected by a mind flayers devour ability? Doesn't say they ARE!) For *general rules purposes* the point is to keep the rules that we have and not write up entirely new ones that overcomplicate the situation. For *flavor* purposes, anything that makes WF *more* different seems to me like a good thing. (Do they "feel pain" the way Humans do? No. They have a damage warning system that sort of functions the way pain does for Humans, but not quite the same. And I actually don't rule that they're affected by the Mind Flayer's Devour ability, though this has more to do with how you rule Mind Flayers than how you rule Warforged. I don't think Mind Flayers can suck the "brains" from Treants or Inevitables or whatever either, even though nothing in those monsters' entries says they don't have "brains".) Yea and a Warforged is a living creature for the purposes of spells and effects because the living construct subtype counts as a "living creature" I believe you just contradicted yourself :P This is Eberron a high fantasy setting where magic is prevalent in a myriad of different ways. Just because a Warforged was built rather then born from the womb of a creature (or plane for that matter) doesn't make it any less living. I'll grant this because, like I said, I screwed up and forgot the specific ruling on this. Doesn't seem rather elegant? My friend this is a time of discovery. Warforged being the new race that they are could have just discovered that these spells affected them in this particular fashion. Despite what the Players Handbook may tell you magic isn't written down with a set of cold laws restricted to ________ or _________. It is a living prevalent force that shapes Eberron and affects things in ways people can't imagine. Humans are already finding out new things about magic and who knows what else they might discover? Is it really that "un elegant" to have your Warforged wizard learn Polymorph (a spell that your common magewright or adept might never be able to learn) and then come to the discovery that it affects him differently then the human and elf wizards he's encountered? Yes, I think it is. Flavor aside, I think it's inelegant from an OOC perspective to start making exceptions to spells left and right. Especially since this encourages people to try to find a munchkinish way to gain an advantage from being a Living Construct as a Golem or something. FWIW, my reading of the RAW is that Warforged can *only* use polymorph to become *other Living Constructs*, which pretty much means only other Warforged (the only other LC I'm aware of is a template and therefore banned for shapechanging purposes).
ArcTan 06-22-07, 03:08 PM	Note some spells that i've found that don't really work for Warforged. Alter Self Enlarge Reduce Person The above spells say specifically Humanoid, so that sucks that you can't use those. Well neither could an Ogre Mage, or a Minotaur Shaman. Untrue. It's true enough for enlarge person and reduce person which, you see, have the word "person" in them. Alter self has no restriction by Type. Charm Person - yes it says specifically by RAW, makes a Humanoid creature Sleep - Says specifically, does not effect Constructs Now i don't have a book with me but I remember they are not subject to fatigue or exhaustion So.. Ray of Enfeeblement - Worthless Enervation - would be nice to cast on a warforged except they are immune to Energy Drain. And that's just some Well, yes. I know.
ArcTan 06-22-07, 03:12 PM	Well here is the one thing that still makes wonder: The subject's creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form. Does this mean you lose your subtype if the creature you turn into doesn't have a subtype? Of in the case of a creature without a subtype, does your type change but subtype stay the same since it doesn't have one? Yes, Type and Subtype "changing" means losing your old one and getting the new one -- which can mean "None", in the case of Subtype. Just think of it as erasing the old "Type (Subtype)" line in your stat block and replacing it entirely with the new form's. (So if you're a Dragon (Augmented Humanoid, Fire) because you're a Red Dragon Disciple and you turn into an Ogre-Mage you simply become a Giant (no subtype).)
Lafarallin 06-22-07, 03:31 PM	Yes, Type and Subtype "changing" means losing your old one and getting the new one -- which can mean "None", in the case of Subtype. Just think of it as erasing the old "Type (Subtype)" line in your stat block and replacing it entirely with the new form's. (So if you're a Dragon (Augmented Humanoid, Fire) because you're a Red Dragon Disciple and you turn into an Ogre-Mage you simply become a Giant (no subtype).) I don't have time to fully respond now since I'm hitting the road shortly. In the Main FAQ, I found something related to this and I'll try to post it later. Just want to throw another thought out there though about becoming a construct form that looks human. Look under Horn of Valhalla, says it summons barbarians and I quote, "Summoned barbarians are constructs, not actual people (though they seem to be)" What would stop me from wanting to alter self into a barbarian summoned by the Horn of Valhalla? ;)
Cifer 06-22-07, 04:07 PM	In that case, I'd deem the word "construct" to be used as "artificial being", not "Type: Construct" - otherwise, where are the traits of "Type: Actual People"?
ArcTan 06-22-07, 04:20 PM	I don't have time to fully respond now since I'm hitting the road shortly. In the Main FAQ, I found something related to this and I'll try to post it later. Just want to throw another thought out there though about becoming a construct form that looks human. Look under Horn of Valhalla, says it summons barbarians and I quote, "Summoned barbarians are constructs, not actual people (though they seem to be)" What would stop me from wanting to alter self into a barbarian summoned by the Horn of Valhalla? ;) Can't take the form of a monster with class levels.
OneWinged4ngel 06-22-07, 05:17 PM	Yep, Alter Self can be pretty crazy so long as you find the right humanoid in that supplement... or just go out and get yourself a non-Humanoid type. It's oft considered abusable, problematic, and overpowered for a reason, ya know ;)
DragoonDarkfire 06-22-07, 07:34 PM	Animated Objects are a loophole, like I said. When alter self was written no one thought about the possibility of PC Constructs using the spell. But I still think it's fine as a limitation. A Warforged can't look like a *person* with this spell. An Animated Object is clearly an artificial construct made by magic, just as a Warforged is. An Effigy Creature effectively allows the Warforged to disguise itself as *anything* without a Will save to disbelieve. I think that's too much. It's the same reason an Aasimar can't simply transform itself into any animal or humanoid with the Celestial template. You are aware that an Effigy doesn't look EXACTLY like it's built counterpart and can be seen as a construct with a successful spot check correct? For *general rules purposes* the point is to keep the rules that we have and not write up entirely new ones that overcomplicate the situation. For *flavor* purposes, anything that makes WF *more* different seems to me like a good thing. (Do they "feel pain" the way Humans do? No. They have a damage warning system that sort of functions the way pain does for Humans, but not quite the same. And I actually don't rule that they're affected by the Mind Flayer's Devour ability, though this has more to do with how you rule Mind Flayers than how you rule Warforged. I don't think Mind Flayers can suck the "brains" from Treants or Inevitables or whatever either, even though nothing in those monsters' entries says they don't have "brains".) I'll give you this because I agree that Warforged aren't human and are pretty alien by most standards but I don't see how it really contradicts any of my house rules. Yes, I think it is. Flavor aside, I think it's inelegant from an OOC perspective to start making exceptions to spells left and right. Especially since this encourages people to try to find a munchkinish way to gain an advantage from being a Living Construct as a Golem or something. And as my job as a DM I try to stop munchkinising in my campaighn by examining the rules I make and going them over with my specific PC's on a case by case basis. I haven't even completely written up these house rules yet so it'd be impossible for me or anyone to see a flaw in it until I got everything down on paper and properly examined it. And I also don't quite see how a Warforged becoming a living flesh golem is any more overpowering then a human becoming an Ogre. Although I would also, personally, remove spell immunity to prevent over powerful PC's. FWIW, my reading of the RAW is that Warforged can *only* use polymorph to become *other Living Constructs*, which pretty much means only other Warforged (the only other LC I'm aware of is a template and therefore banned for shapechanging purposes). Which kinda screws over Warforged for any Transmutation magic when you think about it. It's like Anti-munchkinism in that regard. Like a wizard who takes vow of poverty.
ArcTan 06-22-07, 10:13 PM	Which kinda screws over Warforged for any Transmutation magic when you think about it. It's like Anti-munchkinism in that regard. Like a wizard who takes vow of poverty. I meant only Living Constructs out of all Constructs, sorry. Obviously the spell also lets a Warforged turn into regular living creatures.
Kaladon7779 06-23-07, 10:02 AM	And Kaladon, your interpretation of "form" is just wrong, as evidenced by Lafarellin. Type has a very specific meaning in D&D: It refers to humanoid, monstrous humanoid, construct, outsiders and all the others. Here's my argument as to why I said Form. Wizards Rules of the Game (Polymorph Page 2) http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040518a Says specifically at the top of the page before you can understand polymorph you must understand Alter-Self. here is the second bullet point below Alter Self rules. You can't use this spell to assume the form of an object You all say he can become an Animated Object, Objects are only animated constructs becouse of a spell. Like I said I understand that he's type construct and an Animated Object is type Construct. But Animated Object is an object, and only a construct becouse of a spell. Basically you can animate anything you like, even a stone statue, so here's a list of things that animate object could do. A Stone statue A Table, Must be a construct A Chair A Lamp A womans tampon Do you see my picture, the list is endless becouse you can animate anything as long as its an object, becouse the way you all explain it is that every object is a construct. Which I strongly disagree it can't be done. More to the topic, Objects have a Hardness quality, its an extraordinary ability, so if a warforged turned into one they don't get it. here's a line from Animate Objects Animated objects fight only as directed by the animator. This is a power controlled by somebody, Basically to put it, to say you can become an Animated Object is just like saying I could become a template, there's no difference were comparing the same thing, Somethings thats Animated by Magic as opposed to something that's Added to a Race. You add magic to an item. You add a template to a Race. Lets just say that you guys are right and I'm wrong, ok so he turned into a Table....Great....How do you move....How do speak....How do you do anything, your not and I repeat "NOT" animated or controlled by any means of magic, your just a table, and your not living either, and you don't have any hardness so the big bad warriar smashes his fist on the table and splinters it, your just a construct so your destroyed make a new character. How about if he turnes into a Great Sword...Great he falls to the ground...he's not animated, first off he's just an object which wizard clearly posted you can not turn into an object. I'm sorry but I truely believe that for this purpose of the spell he can only turn into other warforged that are living.
Kaladon7779 06-23-07, 10:19 AM	You are aware that an Effigy doesn't look EXACTLY like it's built counterpart and can be seen as a construct with a successful spot check correct? Dude its not allowed, if you allow one template then you might as well allow all templates. You take on the race, the Base base base race features, not something that's applied to that race.
Kaladon7779 06-23-07, 10:22 AM	Can't take the form of a monster with class levels. He's not asking about Class levels Arc. What he's saying is whats to stop him from altering himself to look like one of them. There are levels of just construct, so basically he'd just look like one of them. The way you guys explain Alter Self, then I'd say its perfectly legal.
DragoonDarkfire 06-23-07, 11:27 AM	Dude its not allowed, if you allow one template then you might as well allow all templates. You take on the race, the Base base base race features, not something that's applied to that race. Why? What logic does this derive from?
Kaladon7779 06-23-07, 01:32 PM	Why? What logic does this derive from? If I was a player in your group, and you allowed another player in the group to use Templates with Alter self/Polymorph, Then I would like to be able to use it as well. Why should one race get that advantage over another. Templates can not be allowed in these lines of spells. Its like adding classes to something that you turn into. Or how about this, If i'm an undead lich wizard, I want to be able to turn into a Skeleton with the Death Knight Template on top of it, becouse that makes sense to me.
DragoonDarkfire 06-23-07, 01:45 PM	If I was a player in your group, and you allowed another player in the group to use Templates with Alter self/Polymorph, Then I would like to be able to use it as well. Why should one race get that advantage over another. Because that race does not have the ability to alter himself into anything other than a construct?
ArcTan 06-23-07, 01:46 PM	Here's my argument as to why I said Form. Wizards Rules of the Game (Polymorph Page 2) http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040518a Says specifically at the top of the page before you can understand polymorph you must understand Alter-Self. here is the second bullet point below Alter Self rules. You can't use this spell to assume the form of an object Well, yes, and Animated Objects, despite their name, are *not* objects, just like Undead are not dead. An Animated Object is an object that's become a creature. You all say he can become an Animated Object, Objects are only animated constructs becouse of a spell. And while they're constructs because of a spell, they're not objects anymore. Just like if I cast awaken on an Animal, it's not an Animal anymore, it's a Magical Beast. If I cast polymorph on myself and become a Dragon, I'm not of Type: Humanoid anymore, I'm of Type: Dragon. The fact that it's "just because of a spell" means nothing. Like I said I understand that he's type construct and an Animated Object is type Construct. But Animated Object is an object, and only a construct becouse of a spell. Basically you can animate anything you like, even a stone statue, so here's a list of things that animate object could do. A Stone statue A Table, Must be a construct A Chair A Lamp A womans tampon Do you see my picture, the list is endless becouse you can animate anything as long as its an object, becouse the way you all explain it is that every object is a construct. Which I strongly disagree it can't be done. Well, I agree it seems silly, but the real solution here is to simply ban Animated Objects from alter self as a specific houserule, not to radically change the definition of the "Humanoid" Type. In D&D Humanoid has nothing to do with being "shaped like a human" -- the majority of the Outsider, Undead, Monstrous Humanoid and Giant Types are all shaped like humans (bipedal with arms and legs and a head). There's still no particular reason Warforged *should* be able to turn into Orcs and Goblins with alter self and should *not* be able to turn into Homunculi, Warforged Scouts or other Constructs. More to the topic, Objects have a Hardness quality, its an extraordinary ability, so if a warforged turned into one they don't get it. True, although they *can* get the Hardness if they use shapechange rather than alter self or polymorph. here's a line from Animate Objects Animated objects fight only as directed by the animator. That's the description of the spell, not the monster. It doesn't mean the monster must *always* follow these rules, any more than summon monster spells determine the behavior of the monsters on those lists. This is a power controlled by somebody, When you use alter self or another transmutation spell to turn into something, you keep your *own* mind, your own personality, and your own alignment. You only get the new creature's *physical* traits. Turning into a Devil doesn't make you Lawful Evil, and turning into a Golem doesn't make you a mindless creature controlled by the Golem's (nonexistent) creator. (Both of these are possible with shapechange.) Basically to put it, to say you can become an Animated Object is just like saying I could become a template, there's no difference were comparing the same thing, Somethings thats Animated by Magic as opposed to something that's Added to a Race. Flavorwise maybe. Technically no -- Animated Object is a race, not a template. You add magic to an item. You add a template to a Race. Lets just say that you guys are right and I'm wrong, ok so he turned into a Table....Great....How do you move....How do speak....How do you do anything, your not and I repeat "NOT" animated or controlled by any means of magic, your just a table, and your not living either, and you don't have any hardness so the big bad warriar smashes his fist on the table and splinters it, your just a construct so your destroyed make a new character. Of course you are. You're an Animated Object, and you have all the qualities described in the Animated Object monster description. You *can't* turn into an *actual*, unanimated object, so if it works at all it *must* turn you into an Animated Object. How about if he turnes into a Great Sword...Great he falls to the ground...he's not animated, first off he's just an object which wizard clearly posted you can not turn into an object. I'm sorry but I truely believe that for this purpose of the spell he can only turn into other warforged that are living. Not for alter self. Alter self has no restriction on Type. Warforged can use it to become Homunculi. Vampires can use it to become Zombies or Ghouls, if they have to for some reason. Polymorph, yes, but not alter self.
ArcTan 06-23-07, 01:46 PM	Because that race does not have the ability to alter himself into anything other than a construct? Warforged *can* use polymorph to become ordinary living creatures. It's pretty clear, now that I'm reading all the rules side-by-side.
ArcTan 06-23-07, 01:47 PM	He's not asking about Class levels Arc. What he's saying is whats to stop him from altering himself to look like one of them. There are levels of just construct, so basically he'd just look like one of them. The way you guys explain Alter Self, then I'd say its perfectly legal. They're defined as Barbarians. That means they *must* have Barbarian class levels. So you can't turn into one. Really, I think that particular item is very very badly written, but as written the "Horn of Valhalla Barbarians" *must* both be Barbarians and be Constructs, which means that you can't ever turn into one. And alter self can only make you look like something you actually are. (I.e. you can't "look like a human" unless you actually turn into something that looks like a human. You can only designate your form's physical appearance within the normal range for something of that form. Important difference from disguise self.)
DragoonDarkfire 06-23-07, 01:48 PM	Warforged *can* use polymorph to become ordinary living creatures. It's pretty clear, now that I'm reading all the rules side-by-side. I wasn't referring to polymorph.
ArcTan 06-23-07, 01:50 PM	I wasn't referring to polymorph. Again, it's still better than alter self is for Humans if you allow Effigies. Humans can only use alter self to look like other Humanoids -- allowing Effigies means you can Disguise yourself as nearly *anything* with alter self, which even disguise self can't do (because of its size limitations). I don't see the logic in letting a Warforged look like a dog or a cat when a Human can't use this spell that way at all -- I don't see how that makes it "more fair".
DragoonDarkfire 06-23-07, 01:57 PM	Again, it's still better than alter self is for Humans if you allow Effigies. Humans can only use alter self to look like other Humanoids -- allowing Effigies means you can Disguise yourself as nearly *anything* with alter self, which even disguise self can't do (because of its size limitations). I don't see the logic in letting a Warforged look like a dog or a cat when a Human can't use this spell that way at all -- I don't see how that makes it "more fair". Well mostly I looked at the number of constructs with 5 HD or less and I can't honestly think of anything better without Warforged getting screwed in the process.
yrogerg 06-23-07, 01:59 PM	True, although they *can* get the Hardness if they use shapechange rather than alter self or polymorph. Acutally, debatable, at the very least: You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth. While it is an (Ex) special quality, it is extremely hard to justify Hardness -being a quality shared between Animated and mundane objects- as anything other than a gross physical quality.
yrogerg 06-23-07, 02:00 PM	Well mostly I looked at the number of constructs with 5 HD or less and I can't honestly think of anything better without Warforged getting screwed in the process. Astral Constructs are pretty nice. Given the descriptions of the abilities, you can gain the ability to fly (Fly and Improved Fly both provide wings) two levels early, or gain a swim speed or a boost to land speed. And possibly an extra three points of DR, as Improved Damage Reduction is explicitly described as a physically hardened carapace.
ArcTan 06-23-07, 02:07 PM	Well mostly I looked at the number of constructs with 5 HD or less and I can't honestly think of anything better without Warforged getting screwed in the process. Why? Warforged Charger lets a Warforged get Large with alter self. That's better than anything Humanoids can do (there's no such thing as a Large Humanoid to my knowledge). True, it only makes up for WF not having enlarge person, but alter self lasts longer than enlarge person, and Chargers get other goodies -- mainly a great natural slam attack and Powerful Charge and Adamantine Body as racial feats. For the primary purpose of alter self, making a real, non-illusory disguise (frankly, all other uses are at least a little munchkiny), it works fine. A Warforged in trouble can make himself look like a completely different Warforged, or look like a lost Artificer's Homunculus. And, frankly, following just the basic RAW means that with Animated Objects and Astral Constructs you already have a *lot* of options. You just can't actually disguise yourself as a Human (or as a Dog) -- but while being an Animated Object is a pretty limited form of disguise with a lot of problems (it's not as uber as people are thinking) it is pretty cool.
Kaladon7779 06-23-07, 02:47 PM	Arc where do you see Animated Objects is a race? The problem here is you all are looking at the spell becouse the spell says you match your type, I agree 100%. However if you say constructs is a race then its no different is a race is no different then saying Humanoid is a race, becouse there both types. Humanoid is defined in the PHB as A humanoid usually has two arms, two legs, and one head, or a humanlike torso, arms, and a head. Humanoids have few or no supernatural or extraordinary abilities, but most can speak and usually have well-developed societies. They usually are Small or Medium. Every humanoid creature also has a subtype. Nowhere in the description says they are a race. Elf is a race, so it would be Humanoid (Elf), Construct is not a race. Animated Objects are just the means of a spell they are only animated from the magic of the caster taht creates them then permancy's it. They are treated as constructs becouse they have the construct traits, Immunity to Mind, not subject to critical things like that becouse they have no Int, or Con and no vital organs. So how with that in mind how does a race like Warforged the ability to become something that's animated by the means of a spell. So he turns into a Chair, it says he keeps his his Type/Subtype so now he's an animated Chair Living construct, where's the Heart, how about the Bio organic brain. I think its pretty clear in the rules by wizard that Alter-self can not turn into any Object, and I personally would say Animate Object is very an object. They make saves, as an object They have hardness, as an object they have no skills, not even the Collosal Animated Object has any skills as an object They have no feats, not even the Collosal Animated object has no feats as an object No offense to anybody here but I feel like i'm taking crazy pills.
ArcTan 06-23-07, 05:20 PM	Arc where do you see Animated Objects is a race? They're very clearly their own race, not a template. The problem here is you all are looking at the spell becouse the spell says you match your type, I agree 100%. However if you say constructs is a race then its no different is a race is no different then saying Humanoid is a race, becouse there both types. No, Animated Object is a race. Construct is a Type. Effigy is a template. Three completely different things. Humanoid is defined in the PHB as A humanoid usually has two arms, two legs, and one head, or a humanlike torso, arms, and a head. Humanoids have few or no supernatural or extraordinary abilities, but most can speak and usually have well-developed societies. They usually are Small or Medium. Every humanoid creature also has a subtype. Nowhere in the description says they are a race. Elf is a race, so it would be Humanoid (Elf), Construct is not a race. Actually, most races aren't a Subtype by default. Trolls are just "Giant", not "Giant (Troll)". I never said Construct was a race. Animated Object is a race. Animated Objects are just the means of a spell they are only animated from the magic of the caster taht creates them then permancy's it. ...Unless they are created by some other means, like alter self. They are treated as constructs becouse they have the construct traits, Immunity to Mind, not subject to critical things like that becouse they have no Int, or Con and no vital organs. Well, the other way around. The stat block says that they're Constructs so we assume they have Construct traits. So how with that in mind how does a race like Warforged the ability to become something that's animated by the means of a spell. So he turns into a Chair, it says he keeps his his Type/Subtype so now he's an animated Chair Living construct, where's the Heart, how about the Bio organic brain. It's magic. It's pretty clear that magic can keep your mind working no matter what you're turned into through transmutation. A Human can polymorph into a small bug and still retain all his cognitive faculties. He can polymorph into a Gelatinous Cube and retain all his cognitive faculties. He can shapechange into an Iron Golem and retain all his cognitive faculties. Hell, he can shapechange into an Animated Object and retain all his cognitive faculties. You are aware that an Elf can use alter self to turn into a Goblin and still be a Humanoid (Elf), right? Despite the fact that a Goblin is not an Elf? How is this any different? Demons can use alter self to turn into Angels and retain the Evil subtype. And, as I mentioned before, an Aasimar can use alter self to turn into a little ball of light. Also, Warforged don't have hearts, as far as I know, nor do they have a "bio organic brain". You're reading a lot into Living Construct that it doesn't actually say. I think its pretty clear in the rules by wizard that Alter-self can not turn into any Object, and I personally would say Animate Object is very an object. You would be wrong. Animated Objects have a Wisdom and Charisma ability score. Objects are differentiated from creatures specifically by not having Wisdom or Charisma (i.e. not being able to perceive the world or themselves). They make saves, as an object No they don't. Nonmagical, unattended objects don't get to make saving throws. (Note that an object that's had a spell cast on it ordinarily does not become a "magical object" for this reason). Animated Objects do, because they are *creatures* and not objects. They get a Dex score (which objects don't have) and a Wis score (which objects don't have) and use both to determine their Reflex and Will modifiers. They have hardness, as an object They have Hardness *as an Extraordinary Ability*. Objects don't have Extraordinary Abilities (and don't need an (Ex) ability to have Hardness). they have no skills, not even the Collosal Animated Object has any skills as an object Big deal. Skeletons and Zombies don't have skills either. Those are creatures and not objects. Mindless creatures, in general, often don't have skills, but being a mindless creature is not the same thing as being an object. They have no feats, not even the Collosal Animated object has no feats as an object Again, this is not part of the definition of an "object". An object has *no* saving throws (unless it's magical or attended). An object has *no* ability scores, usually (traps sometimes do) whereas Animated Objects have them, including the all-important Wis 1 and Cha 1 which define "minimal sentience". They are sentient beings (by the broad definition of sentience). They are creatures. No offense to anybody here but I feel like i'm taking crazy pills. What's so weird about the fact that Animated Objects are creatures and not objects, because they're "animated"? They're monsters. They're in the *Monster Manual*.
yrogerg 06-23-07, 06:02 PM	they have no skills, not even the Collosal Animated Object has any skills as an object They have no feats, not even the Collosal Animated object has no feats as an object You do realize that these two have nothing to do with whether or not something is an object or a creature, right? This is because Animated Objects are Mindless, and thus only have any racial feats and skill bonuses they may have. This is also true of Dretches, most Oozes, Skeletons, Zombies, all Vermin, Iron Golems, Clay Golems, Stone Golems... So, which of those monsters are objects, rather than creatures, again? Here's the relevant part of the SRD: Intelligence Any creature that can think, learn, or remember has at least 1 point of Intelligence. A creature with no Intelligence score is mindless, an automaton operating on simple instincts or programmed instructions. It has immunity to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) and automatically fails Intelligence checks. Mindless creatures do not gain feats or skills, although they may have bonus feats or racial skill bonuses. Wisdom Any creature that can perceive its environment in any fashion has at least 1 point of Wisdom. Anything with no Wisdom score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Wisdom score also has no Charisma score. Charisma Any creature capable of telling the difference between itself and things that are not itself has at least 1 point of Charisma. Anything with no Charisma score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Charisma score also has no Wisdom score.
Kaladon7779 06-23-07, 07:09 PM	Everything Object has Hardness, whether its an EX or not it makes no difference. A door has a Hardness, Rope has Hardness, Golems do not have hardness. Simple put it, Objects have hardness Creatures have damage reduction Right from Wizards post on Polymorph, article reads in order to understand Polymorph you must understand "Alter-Self" first. Second Bullet http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040518a The form you assume must be a creature of the same type as yours. You can't use this spell to assume the form of an object, Where is a Chair Not an object, animated or not, I don't care its an object, it has a hardness like all other objects in the game. Animated Objects are objects, if you dispell them they are objects, if you fight them they are objects, if you try to break them they save as objects, if they go into Anti-magic fields they fall useless like enchanted objects Here you go Animate Objects Spell An animated object can be of any nonmagical material. You may animate one Small or smaller object or an equivalent number of larger objects per caster level. A Medium object counts as two Small or smaller objects, a Large object as four, a Huge object as eight, a Gargantuan object as sixteen, and a Colossal object as thirty-two. You can change the designated target or targets as a move action, as if directing an active spell. Count them up 1.2...7 times they referance them as objects. That's from the spell. So how do they become animated or counted in the monsters manual? next part of the spell. Animate objects can be made permanent with a permanency spell This does not change the base of the item. Its still an object. So far nobody here has sold me on this Alter Self with constucts becoming Animated Objects. Everything you've all brought up i've found something that contradicts posted by Wizard.
Kaladon7779 06-23-07, 07:15 PM	BTW. after this I hope were all still friends. And remember to tip your waitress.
yrogerg 06-23-07, 10:33 PM	Objects have hardness Creatures have damage reduction ...unless that creature has a Hardness (ex) special qualities. Objects, as arctan pointed out, don't have (ex) special qualities, as they don't have monster entries. Also, creatures under the effect of the Statue spell *do* have Hardness 8. So clearly, this claim is deeply flawed. Right from Wizards post on Polymorph, article reads in order to understand Polymorph you must understand "Alter-Self" first. Second Bullet http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040518a The form you assume must be a creature of the same type as yours. You can't use this spell to assume the form of an object, Which is irrelevant, because Animated objects are Constructs, not objects. Where is a Chair Not an object, animated or not, I don't care its an object, it has a hardness like all other objects in the game. Except Hardness does not an object make. Note that the target of a Statue spell is still a Living Creature after the spell's had its effect. The definition used by the PHB to differentiate creatures and objects is whether or not the thing in question has a Wis and Cha score. Note that this means that even some living things: trees, flowers, mold, and the like, are still Objects, because they lack both a Wis and Cha score. Animated Objects are objects, if you dispell them they are objects, if you fight them they are objects, if you try to break them they save as objects, if they go into Anti-magic fields they fall useless like enchanted objects And if you kill a human, they become a corpse (i.e, an object). Does that mean humans are objects, too? Likewise, when you cast Animate Dead, or Create Undead, you are targeting a corpse. Does this mean that Undead are really objects? Also, to restate *again*, objects never get saving throws unless they are attended by a creature. Animated objects have their own saves because they have Wis scores (and thus a Will save) and Dex scores (and thus a Ref save). If they were objects, they would not get saves. Here you go Animate Objects Spell An animated object can be of any nonmagical material. You may animate one Small or smaller object or an equivalent number of larger objects per caster level. A Medium object counts as two Small or smaller objects, a Large object as four, a Huge object as eight, a Gargantuan object as sixteen, and a Colossal object as thirty-two. You can change the designated target or targets as a move action, as if directing an active spell. Count them up 1.2...7 times they referance them as objects. That's from the spell. Because it's identifying appropriate targets for the spell, not what the effects of the spell are on those targets. Finger of Death and Implosion discuss Living Creatures in their spell descriptions, rather than corpses, for the same reason. So how do they become animated or counted in the monsters manual? next part of the spell. Animate objects can be made permanent with a permanency spell This does not change the base of the item. Its still an object. Curious, as the MM's specific description of Animated Objects says, Animated objects come in all sizes, shapes, and colors. They owe their existence as creatures to spells such as Animate Objects or similar supernatural abilities.
Lafarallin 06-24-07, 08:57 AM	Where do I find information regarding astral constructs?
ArcTan 06-24-07, 09:59 AM	Everything Object has Hardness, whether its an EX or not it makes no difference. A door has a Hardness, Rope has Hardness, Golems do not have hardness. And Animated Objects are an *exception*, because they come from objects animated by magic. That doesn't mean they're still objects. The fact that they have Hardness is an (Ex) ability that has to be specifically noted in their monster stat block. If it didn't say that specifically, we would have to assume they didn't have Hardness, because they are, in fact, monsters in the Monster Manual. Simple put it, Objects have hardness Creatures have damage reduction Right from Wizards post on Polymorph, article reads in order to understand Polymorph you must understand "Alter-Self" first. The Rules of the Game article on polymorph is actually pretty bad and contradicts a plain reading of the rules multiple times, although none of those times is germane to this current discussion. Second Bullet http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040518a The form you assume must be a creature of the same type as yours. You can't use this spell to assume the form of an object, Where is a Chair Not an object, animated or not, I don't care its an object, it has a hardness like all other objects in the game. A corpse is also an object in D&D. Technically, a Human is just an "animated" corpse. (Less technically, so is a Skeleton or a Zombie.) The only important distinction between creatures and objects is that creatures take actions and objects don't. Animated Objects take actions (they roll initiative in a combat round like everyone else). So they're monsters. Animated Objects are objects, if you dispell them they are objects, if you fight them they are objects, if you try to break them they save as objects, if they go into Anti-magic fields they fall useless like enchanted objects You can't "fight" objects. As Bruce Lee put it, "boards don't hit back". The fact that Animated Objects can take actions and, y'know, fight you on their own means that they're creatures. Objects don't make saves, unless they're magic items, or attended by a creature. The animate objects spell *cannot* be used on magic or attended items. In other words, you're totally wrong about the saving throws thing. If I'm a mage who wants to set a chair on fire with burning hands, and I cast the spell at a chair, the chair just *gets set on fire*. It doesn't get to roll a damn thing. How could it? It's just a chair. However, an Animated Chair has a Reflex save modifier of +0. If I fire a wand of burning hands at it (which has the minimum save DC of 12), then the Animated Chair only has to roll a 12 or higher to take half damage. This is nothing at all like the properties of the chair it was made from. Here you go Animate Objects Spell An animated object can be of any nonmagical material. You may animate one Small or smaller object or an equivalent number of larger objects per caster level. A Medium object counts as two Small or smaller objects, a Large object as four, a Huge object as eight, a Gargantuan object as sixteen, and a Colossal object as thirty-two. You can change the designated target or targets as a move action, as if directing an active spell. Count them up 1.2...7 times they referance them as objects. That's from the spell. Well, yes. That's because you cast the spell *on* an object. Once you cast the spell, it's an Animated Object and technically not an "object" anymore. Kind of like how if you use power word: kill on a creature and it works, it's now a dead body and not a creature anymore. So how do they become animated or counted in the monsters manual? next part of the spell. Animate objects can be made permanent with a permanency spell This does not change the base of the item. Its still an object. This is in the *spell* description, not the *monster* description. It is the *most common* way for a spellcasting character in the game to make Animated Objects. However, it is certainly not defined as the *only* way, and a DM can always decide to just plop the Animated Object monster into his game in some random place without explaining how it got that way, just like he can just say there are Skeletons and Zombies somewhere without explaining who cast animate dead to make them. In D&D it's always possible that natural magic or the will of the gods or some other kind of plot device makes things happen. (I believe Animated Objects are one of the possible results of Wild Magic, for instance, or a variant rod of wonder.) The point is that the definition of what an Animated Object *is* for the purpose of other spells like turning into one with alter self or creating one from scratch with the Origin of Species Epic spell is given by the Animated Object *monster* description in the Monster Manual, and it never there defines Animated Objects as having to have a permanency animate objects spell on them that can be dispelled. That's how you would usually encounter them in nature, but, for instance, you could turn into an Animated Object with alter self, and then the source of the Animated Object is the alter self spell and not the animate objects spell. So far nobody here has sold me on this Alter Self with constucts becoming Animated Objects. Everything you've all brought up i've found something that contradicts posted by Wizard. Okay. What about this? Immunities Objects are immune to nonlethal damage and to critical hits. Even animated objects, which are otherwise considered creatures, have these immunities because they are constructs. ... Animated objects count as creatures for purposes of determining their Armor Class (do not treat them as inanimate objects). Seems pretty damn clear to me.
yrogerg 06-24-07, 09:59 AM	Where do I find information regarding astral constructs? XPH. It's also listed in the SRD's psionics section, under Psionic Monsters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/astralConstruct.htm)
ArcTan 06-24-07, 10:03 AM	Where do I find information regarding astral constructs? http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/astralConstruct.htm They're monsters from the XPH created by psionic characters as an alternative to summoning. Very highly customizable. Alter self lets you turn into a 4th-level one, just high enough to get Menu B abilities. Of course the idea that being able to turn into one at all with alter self as a Warforged was even considered by the people who created Warforged is very questionable, as with Animated Objects. It's completely rules-legal, however, and probably less unbalancing than allowing Animated Objects (since you can't disguise yourself as a table or a box or something -- an Astral Construct is clearly a monster, and, in Eberron, will be an unfamiliar and threatening one to most people). And, of course, you can make up flavor that makes this make sense, like becoming an Animated Object taps into the Warforged nature as a mass of unliving matter given life by unnatural processes, while becoming an Astral Construct taps into its nature as an artificially constructed mind.
Cifer 06-24-07, 04:32 PM	@Kaladon You missed a major point of ArcTan and others: As long as objects are animated, they are no longer considered objects ruleswise. Would you say it's possible to use Speak With Dead on a zombie? After all, it's a dead thing which just accidentally got hit by an animate dead. In the same way, what about Awakened animals? They're magic beasts now, but they still look like animals! Further, Animated Objects have a minimum score in Charisma and Wisdom, which are precisely the defining traits for being a creature instead of an object. The fact that entities (meaning things, creatures and everything else) can be changed in status, type and just about anything else is one of the fundamentals of D&D.
Warforged Goblin 06-27-07, 08:46 AM	I have a few points to add: If the name of the spell was animate things instead of animate objects, would that make everyone feel better about using Animated Objects with warforged wizards and alter self? Animate Things Spell An animated thing can be of any nonmagical material. You may animate one Small or smaller thing or an equivalent number of larger things per caster level. A Medium thing counts as two Small or smaller things, a Large thing as four, a Huge thing as eight, a Gargantuan thing as sixteen, and a Colossal thing as thirty-two. You can change the designated target or targets as a move action, as if directing an active spell. That should make it easier to discern the difference between an Animated Thing (Object) and a regular, non-animated object. Of course, the fact that the object is non-animated may help with that also, but what do I know? The deciding factor with alter self is Type. Not Subtype. Not implied, "what I think it should be"-Type. Not how many arms, legs, and heads the creature has. Just Type. A warforged wizard can become an Animated Object, a half-ogre wizard can become an ogre mage, an aasimar wizard can become a lantern archon, a half-dragon elf wizard can become a pseudodragon, and a lizardfolk wizard can become a centaur. These are all RAW legal choices for the wizard in question, despite whatever physical changes would happen as a result of the magic. Allow me to repeat that last part: as a result of the magic. Please keep in mind this is a fantasy game where, on occasion, people tell the laws of the real world to STFU. Magically, I might add. Allowing the Effigy template might be a it too much, but then again, what about the half-ogre wizard? There's not a lot of 5 HD or less creatures with the giant type (of course, becoming an ogre mage is still pretty sweet). Would a special case be allowed for them as well? While there may not be a large number of low-HD constructs, the 'forged wizard does have options, he just needs to know how to use them. Also, scour the handbooks. Clockwork Horrors, Hammerers, Pulverizers, Nimblewrights, and Maugs could make the alter self spell even more viable. Of course, now I'm gonna have a warforged wizard burgular who hides as furniture :D
Lafarallin 06-27-07, 02:54 PM	Thanks for all the great debate and such here. At first I felt kind of silly bringing up this topic but I see that it wasn't so silly afterall. I've learned a ton from everyone here and have better grasp of the rules now due to everyone's input. Even DragoonDarkFire's. ;)
Kaladon7779 06-29-07, 06:27 AM	A corpse is also an object in D&D. So basically Laf, since a fresh dead person is an object, then you can Alter self into a dead human. Becouse if the body is an object then its completely within the rules of Animate Object. Correct? And it would be a construct. I think it sounds completely wrong but if this is true to what you guys say then its completely by RAW legal.
Warforged Goblin 06-29-07, 09:09 AM	So basically Laf, since a fresh dead person is an object, then you can Alter self into a dead human. Becouse if the body is an object then its completely within the rules of Animate Object. Correct? And it would be a construct. I think it sounds completely wrong but if this is true to what you guys say then its completely by RAW legal. No, using alter self to become an object is not legal. Using alter self to become a Medium Animated Object, which just happens to be a human corpse, is completely legal, despite any wrongness. And yes, using animate object on a corpse is legal, and a great way to confuse the hell out of the cleric.
Kaladon7779 06-29-07, 10:08 AM	And yes, using animate object on a corpse is legal, So basically by RAW from what you guys are saying, a warforged can alter-self to look like anything he can think of? Correct? As long as its within the size catagory.
Warforged Goblin 06-29-07, 11:22 AM	So basically by RAW from what you guys are saying, a warforged can alter-self to look like anything he can think of? Correct? As long as its within the size catagory. As long as it can be animated by animate objects, yes.
Lafarallin 06-29-07, 11:28 AM	Personally I'm not so sure about considering a corpse an object. It has no hardness and makes no saving throws. Also animate dead is to corpses as animated object is to objects. That seems silly and just wrong. So as the player in question using the ability, I will rule that corpses are out, or specifically animated versions of the aforementioned corpses.
Warforged Goblin 06-29-07, 12:24 PM	Personally I'm not so sure about considering a corpse an object. It has no hardness and makes no saving throws. Also animate dead is to corpses as animated object is to objects. That seems silly and just wrong. So as the player in question using the ability, I will rule that corpses are out, or specifically animated versions of the aforementioned corpses. That's fine, however, corpses are a legal target for animate object, thus making them a legal target for a warforged wtih alter self. Your restrictions are voluntary which, as a DM, I respect.
yrogerg 06-29-07, 06:17 PM	Personally I'm not so sure about considering a corpse an object. It has no hardness and makes no saving throws. Also animate dead is to corpses as animated object is to objects. Again, you're using the wrong standards, though: sheets of paper, for example, are another example of objects with no hardness. And no unattended, non-magical objects make saving throws. The fact that a corpse makes no saving throws is a result of being an object, not a contradiction. As for animate objects, it's worth comparing an animated, bipedal, medium object to a Skeleton or Zombie. Using an 8th-level spell to almost -but not quite- mimic the effect of a much lower-level spell is little more than wasteful, though it has a fairly cool consequence for the flavor of Animate Dead, and why creating negative-energy undead is so alluring. Mechanically, creating fake zombies out if Animate Objects is pretty worthless, however.
yrogerg 06-29-07, 06:20 PM	So basically by RAW from what you guys are saying, a warforged can alter-self to look like anything he can think of? Correct? As long as its within the size catagory. Or, at very least, a lurching, zombie-but-more-awkward version of that creature. Useful for infiltrating Fort Bones, possibly, but not too useful in polite society.
ArcTan 07-02-07, 09:36 PM	Personally I'm not so sure about considering a corpse an object. It has no hardness and makes no saving throws. As yrogerg pointed out, this is also entirely true of things like sheets of paper. Also animate dead is to corpses as animated object is to objects. ...Except it isn't. Animate dead makes Skeletons and Zombies, which are in most ways entirely superior to Animated Objects as grunt troops. As I've pointed out repeatedly, the differences between animate dead and animate objects are an object lesson in the difference between Undead and Constructs, and a demonstration that even the most mindless of mindless Undead still bear some link to the living things they once were. Animate dead lets the creature keep its HD, its Str and Dex scores (modified), its weapon proficiencies, etc. Animate objects lets you keep none of it -- you can cast it on a corpse, but then you just get an Animated Object exactly the same as any Medium-sized Animated Object. That seems silly and just wrong. So as the player in question using the ability, I will rule that corpses are out, or specifically animated versions of the aforementioned corpses. Enh. He'll just be a lurching marionette. Even if he can't become a corpse, he can become, say, a totally artificial sack of meat and bones that looks just like a corpse.