WF with Imp. Fortification & Devoted Spirit? [Archive] - Wizards Community

WF with Imp. Fortification & Devoted Spirit? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Hulldown
03-02-07, 04:40 PM Okay, got a good question for you Eberron and Tome of Battle gurus.

I've a Warforged that, due to high levels, certain feats, and magic items, has the following:

A) Improved Fortification - good for ignoring any Crits, but then I can't be effected by Healing [Conjuration] Spells...

B) Strike of Righteous Vitality - a 9th lvl Devoted Spirit Manuever. Normally, it says that one gains the benefit of the Heal spell,
as if cast by a Cleric of your character level.

Now, since my WF can't be healed by Healing [Conjuration] Spells, but can be by all the other Stances and Manuevers
of this Discipline, does a WF get full/partial/no effect from this spell - and WHY? :confused:

I'd appreciate a real plain english answer, with full details explaining; I'm a D&D magic newb (everything but magic in D&D makes sense to me), so I need some assistance to those with a better grasp of the finer points.

Currently, DM thinks no, but that's because Heal itself as a spell would not work... but as I'm the group tank, I'd really like to get him to say 'yes'. :D

(Also, I'm gaming with this WF this weekend - quick, definative answers would be appreciated! :P )
Cifer
03-02-07, 07:33 PM gains the benefit of the Heal spell,
as if cast by a Cleric of your character level.
Well, what is the benefit you get when a cleric of your character level casts Heal on you? That should answer your question.
Save-vs-DM
03-05-07, 06:22 PM Unfortunately, you cannot be healed with Strike of Righteous Vitality, as it directly mimics the heal spell, which you are specifically immune to.

Cheers,
Save vs DM
AvonRekaes
03-05-07, 11:52 PM The wording is a little fuzy on this. It does not say "as if Heal had been cast on you", it says "you gain the benefit of a heal spell as if it was cast at such and such level."

The break in logic is something like this: A cleric of 10th level would heal 100 hp by casting Heal. The benefit of that spell is 100 hp healed then. However, no spell is actually cast on you. You don't get the effect of a 10th level cleric casting it on you, you just get the benefit of a spell as powerful as one that would be cast by a 10th level cleric. It's a subtle difference and might not hold water with your DM, but there it is.

I'm not too familiar with the Tome of Battle, so I'm not sure if that maneuver is Supernatural or Spell-like. If it was Supernatural, I'd say that you get the healing, because supernatural abilities aren't spells (even if they mimic them) and therefore can't be of the conjuration (healing) school. However if it's spell-like, then I'd rule that it carries the school and subschool and your warforged can't be healed.

That's just how I'd rule it though. It's rather muddied. And you can't claim any sort of intent on this, because I honestly don't think the designers were taking Warforged with that feat or Juggernaughts into account when they wrote that maneuver.
Hulldown
03-06-07, 03:27 AM The wording is a little fuzy on this. It does not say "as if Heal had been cast on you", it says "you gain the benefit of a heal spell as if it was cast at such and such level."

The break in logic is something like this: A cleric of 10th level would heal 100 hp by casting Heal. The benefit of that spell is 100 hp healed then. However, no spell is actually cast on you. You don't get the effect of a 10th level cleric casting it on you, you just get the benefit of a spell as powerful as one that would be cast by a 10th level cleric. It's a subtle difference and might not hold water with your DM, but there it is.

I'm not too familiar with the Tome of Battle, so I'm not sure if that maneuver is Supernatural or Spell-like. If it was Supernatural, I'd say that you get the healing, because supernatural abilities aren't spells (even if they mimic them) and therefore can't be of the conjuration (healing) school. However if it's spell-like, then I'd rule that it carries the school and subschool and your warforged can't be healed.

That's just how I'd rule it though. It's rather muddied. And you can't claim any sort of intent on this, because I honestly don't think the designers were taking Warforged with that feat or Juggernaughts into account when they wrote that maneuver.

Now this is exactly how I was seeing the issue!

Here's the kicker - ToB (Tome of Battle) manuevers, as a default are (Ex), unless stated as (Su) abilities; most of such-listed manuevers belong to Desert Wind & the Shadow Hand Discipline. And, at no time does Strike of Righteous Vitality say it's a (Su) effect...
AvonRekaes
03-06-07, 09:12 AM Then I'd probably talk to your DM about how the maneuver isn't actually a conjuration (healing) effect. However, he might just say no anyway, because of game balance. He might insist that you pay the penalty for taking that feat and not want to give you a loophole regardless of raw interpretations. And it's rather vague to begin with so if he says no, you have to take his ruling on it cause he's the DM.
UnderworldLord
03-06-07, 10:30 AM Well if it works 'as if heal had been cast on you' and you are 'immune to spells of the healing [conjuration] school' then I'd say irregardless of some badly stated rules, that if heal is cast on you you gain no benefits. Therefore, no healing for you.
AvonRekaes
03-06-07, 10:53 AM But it's not "as if heal had been cast on you" it's "gain the benefit of the heal spell as if it was cast by a so and so level caster".

Like I said, it's a really hard distinction to make, very vague. Not really much to stand on.
Nightshade
03-06-07, 11:23 AM But it's not "as if heal had been cast on you" it's "gain the benefit of the heal spell as if it was cast by a so and so level caster".

Like I said, it's a really hard distinction to make, very vague. Not really much to stand on.

"gain the benefit of the heal spell..."

That answers your question right there in the negative. Look up the Heal spell school and subschool. It's explicitly prohibited. It does not seem vague to me at all.
UnderworldLord
03-06-07, 11:44 AM *Text Deleted*
AvonRekaes
03-06-07, 12:26 PM "gain the benefit of the heal spell..."

That answers your question right there in the negative. Look up the Heal spell school and subschool. It's explicitly prohibited. It does not seem vague to me at all.

the benefit of the heal spell is not exactly the heal spell. It's just what the heal spell does, not what it is. The conjuration (healing) school and subschool aren't part of the benefit of the spell, they're just classifications for what the spell is. But this isn't a spell, it's a maneuver that grants the benefits of the spell, which specifically are points of healing.

Hey, I'm fully admiting that it's a thin line, and largely just nitpicking. But it still can be read that way.
DarkWarriorKarg
03-06-07, 03:39 PM Your options are as follows:

Send 3 identical questions to Customer Service, then average out the answers.
No, you cannot be affected by Conjuration(healing)
yes, it's (ex), and not even magical, and so is not Conjuration(healing)

In my own game, I would rule #3. After all, there is a high level infusion that works as a Heal, but for repairing damage.
Cifer
03-06-07, 08:48 PM It's just what the heal spell does, not what it is.
The problem is there is no "what the heal spell does". The "benefit of the heal spell" can be:
-inflict a lot of damage (if you're undead)
-heal a lot of damage (if you're not)
-do nothing at all (if you're immune to conjuration[healing])

The only final answer on this will be given by your DM. My personal opinion is that this doesn't work - you chose the feat, now live (or exist) with it.
Ubermog
03-28-07, 12:24 AM A WF paladin can use the Lay on Hands to heal damage as a repair spell, so wouldn't this come under the same kind of rules? That is, if the ability is used on a warforged (or other construct) it repairs damage rather than actually healing?
yrogerg
03-28-07, 07:41 AM But it's not "as if heal had been cast on you" it's "gain the benefit of the heal spell as if it was cast by a so and so level caster".

But you just pointed out that the text *does* contain the line "gain the benefit of the heal spell as if it was cast..."

Wasn't the "as if it were cast" phrase the part people were pointing out to say it wouldn't work?
yrogerg
03-28-07, 07:49 AM A WF paladin can use the Lay on Hands to heal damage as a repair spell, so wouldn't this come under the same kind of rules? That is, if the ability is used on a warforged (or other construct) it repairs damage rather than actually healing?

No because Lay on Hands 1) isn't a spell of the Conjuration (Healing) school, and 2) Doesn't mimic a spell of the Conjuration (Healing) school. It's a unique effect that is not identified as Conjuration (Healing).
Kid SixXx
03-28-07, 11:52 AM But you just pointed out that the text *does* contain the line "gain the benefit of the heal spell as if it was cast..."

Yeah, the "as if" clause doesn't really throw me. The wording directly references the spell the stance mimics and the effect of the Heal spell & the school it belongs to are easily researched in the PHB.

That being said, how hard can it be to go the substitution level route and create an alternate "Repair" version of the strike that Warforged can take?
Edymnion
03-28-07, 02:11 PM the benefit of the heal spell is not exactly the heal spell. It's just what the heal spell does, not what it is. The conjuration (healing) school and subschool aren't part of the benefit of the spell, they're just classifications for what the spell is. But this isn't a spell, it's a maneuver that grants the benefits of the spell, which specifically are points of healing.For anyone else that would be the benefit.
If Heal was cast on him, there would be no benefit. Doesn't matter how powerful the Heal is, it would always restore 0 hp to that character. Remember, it says "as if the spell had been cast on you". Not "a random person walking down the street", but specifically you.

Immunity to healing subschool + "effects heal would have had on you" = nothing.
Lazaro
03-28-07, 04:44 PM I'd have agree with the others and say that the manuever has no effect on you. For a definate answer I'd send this question to cust. service.
Edymnion
03-28-07, 06:37 PM I'd have agree with the others and say that the manuever has no effect on you. For a definate answer I'd send this question to cust. service....and then do the exact opposite of whatever they tell you to do.
Cifer
03-28-07, 10:07 PM ...and then do the exact opposite of whatever they tell you to do.
I wouldn't be too sure about that. After all, Cust Serv is practically bound to get it right somewhen simply by laws of probability. I'd advise asking them instead whether a paladin falls after killing an orc baby. Then, take the fourteenth letter of the response and convert it to ASCII - if it's an even number, the maneuver works, otherwise it doesn't.
keropie
03-28-07, 11:22 PM I wouldn't be too sure about that. After all, Cust Serv is practically bound to get it right somewhen simply by laws of probability. I'd advise asking them instead whether a paladin falls after killing an orc baby. Then, take the fourteenth letter of the response and convert it to ASCII - if it's an even number, the maneuver works, otherwise it doesn't.

Oh, if only there were an easier way to generate a pseudorandom number!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hulldown 03-02-07, 04:40 PM	Okay, got a good question for you Eberron and Tome of Battle gurus. I've a Warforged that, due to high levels, certain feats, and magic items, has the following: A) Improved Fortification - good for ignoring any Crits, but then I can't be effected by Healing [Conjuration] Spells... B) Strike of Righteous Vitality - a 9th lvl Devoted Spirit Manuever. Normally, it says that one gains the benefit of the Heal spell, as if cast by a Cleric of your character level. Now, since my WF can't be healed by Healing [Conjuration] Spells, but can be by all the other Stances and Manuevers of this Discipline, does a WF get full/partial/no effect from this spell - and WHY? :confused: I'd appreciate a real plain english answer, with full details explaining; I'm a D&D magic newb (everything but magic in D&D makes sense to me), so I need some assistance to those with a better grasp of the finer points. Currently, DM thinks no, but that's because Heal itself as a spell would not work... but as I'm the group tank, I'd really like to get him to say 'yes'. :D (Also, I'm gaming with this WF this weekend - quick, definative answers would be appreciated! :P )
Cifer 03-02-07, 07:33 PM	gains the benefit of the Heal spell, as if cast by a Cleric of your character level. Well, what is the benefit you get when a cleric of your character level casts Heal on you? That should answer your question.
Save-vs-DM 03-05-07, 06:22 PM	Unfortunately, you cannot be healed with Strike of Righteous Vitality, as it directly mimics the heal spell, which you are specifically immune to. Cheers, Save vs DM
AvonRekaes 03-05-07, 11:52 PM	The wording is a little fuzy on this. It does not say "as if Heal had been cast on you", it says "you gain the benefit of a heal spell as if it was cast at such and such level." The break in logic is something like this: A cleric of 10th level would heal 100 hp by casting Heal. The benefit of that spell is 100 hp healed then. However, no spell is actually cast on you. You don't get the effect of a 10th level cleric casting it on you, you just get the benefit of a spell as powerful as one that would be cast by a 10th level cleric. It's a subtle difference and might not hold water with your DM, but there it is. I'm not too familiar with the Tome of Battle, so I'm not sure if that maneuver is Supernatural or Spell-like. If it was Supernatural, I'd say that you get the healing, because supernatural abilities aren't spells (even if they mimic them) and therefore can't be of the conjuration (healing) school. However if it's spell-like, then I'd rule that it carries the school and subschool and your warforged can't be healed. That's just how I'd rule it though. It's rather muddied. And you can't claim any sort of intent on this, because I honestly don't think the designers were taking Warforged with that feat or Juggernaughts into account when they wrote that maneuver.
Hulldown 03-06-07, 03:27 AM	The wording is a little fuzy on this. It does not say "as if Heal had been cast on you", it says "you gain the benefit of a heal spell as if it was cast at such and such level." The break in logic is something like this: A cleric of 10th level would heal 100 hp by casting Heal. The benefit of that spell is 100 hp healed then. However, no spell is actually cast on you. You don't get the effect of a 10th level cleric casting it on you, you just get the benefit of a spell as powerful as one that would be cast by a 10th level cleric. It's a subtle difference and might not hold water with your DM, but there it is. I'm not too familiar with the Tome of Battle, so I'm not sure if that maneuver is Supernatural or Spell-like. If it was Supernatural, I'd say that you get the healing, because supernatural abilities aren't spells (even if they mimic them) and therefore can't be of the conjuration (healing) school. However if it's spell-like, then I'd rule that it carries the school and subschool and your warforged can't be healed. That's just how I'd rule it though. It's rather muddied. And you can't claim any sort of intent on this, because I honestly don't think the designers were taking Warforged with that feat or Juggernaughts into account when they wrote that maneuver. Now this is exactly how I was seeing the issue! Here's the kicker - ToB (Tome of Battle) manuevers, as a default are (Ex), unless stated as (Su) abilities; most of such-listed manuevers belong to Desert Wind & the Shadow Hand Discipline. And, at no time does Strike of Righteous Vitality say it's a (Su) effect...
AvonRekaes 03-06-07, 09:12 AM	Then I'd probably talk to your DM about how the maneuver isn't actually a conjuration (healing) effect. However, he might just say no anyway, because of game balance. He might insist that you pay the penalty for taking that feat and not want to give you a loophole regardless of raw interpretations. And it's rather vague to begin with so if he says no, you have to take his ruling on it cause he's the DM.
UnderworldLord 03-06-07, 10:30 AM	Well if it works 'as if heal had been cast on you' and you are 'immune to spells of the healing [conjuration] school' then I'd say irregardless of some badly stated rules, that if heal is cast on you you gain no benefits. Therefore, no healing for you.
AvonRekaes 03-06-07, 10:53 AM	But it's not "as if heal had been cast on you" it's "gain the benefit of the heal spell as if it was cast by a so and so level caster". Like I said, it's a really hard distinction to make, very vague. Not really much to stand on.
Nightshade 03-06-07, 11:23 AM	But it's not "as if heal had been cast on you" it's "gain the benefit of the heal spell as if it was cast by a so and so level caster". Like I said, it's a really hard distinction to make, very vague. Not really much to stand on. "gain the benefit of the heal spell..." That answers your question right there in the negative. Look up the Heal spell school and subschool. It's explicitly prohibited. It does not seem vague to me at all.
UnderworldLord 03-06-07, 11:44 AM	Text Deleted
AvonRekaes 03-06-07, 12:26 PM	"gain the benefit of the heal spell..." That answers your question right there in the negative. Look up the Heal spell school and subschool. It's explicitly prohibited. It does not seem vague to me at all. the benefit of the heal spell is not exactly the heal spell. It's just what the heal spell does, not what it is. The conjuration (healing) school and subschool aren't part of the benefit of the spell, they're just classifications for what the spell is. But this isn't a spell, it's a maneuver that grants the benefits of the spell, which specifically are points of healing. Hey, I'm fully admiting that it's a thin line, and largely just nitpicking. But it still can be read that way.
DarkWarriorKarg 03-06-07, 03:39 PM	Your options are as follows: Send 3 identical questions to Customer Service, then average out the answers. No, you cannot be affected by Conjuration(healing) yes, it's (ex), and not even magical, and so is not Conjuration(healing) In my own game, I would rule #3. After all, there is a high level infusion that works as a Heal, but for repairing damage.
Cifer 03-06-07, 08:48 PM	It's just what the heal spell does, not what it is. The problem is there is no "what the heal spell does". The "benefit of the heal spell" can be: -inflict a lot of damage (if you're undead) -heal a lot of damage (if you're not) -do nothing at all (if you're immune to conjuration[healing]) The only final answer on this will be given by your DM. My personal opinion is that this doesn't work - you chose the feat, now live (or exist) with it.
Ubermog 03-28-07, 12:24 AM	A WF paladin can use the Lay on Hands to heal damage as a repair spell, so wouldn't this come under the same kind of rules? That is, if the ability is used on a warforged (or other construct) it repairs damage rather than actually healing?
yrogerg 03-28-07, 07:41 AM	But it's not "as if heal had been cast on you" it's "gain the benefit of the heal spell as if it was cast by a so and so level caster". But you just pointed out that the text does contain the line "gain the benefit of the heal spell as if it was cast..." Wasn't the "as if it were cast" phrase the part people were pointing out to say it wouldn't work?
yrogerg 03-28-07, 07:49 AM	A WF paladin can use the Lay on Hands to heal damage as a repair spell, so wouldn't this come under the same kind of rules? That is, if the ability is used on a warforged (or other construct) it repairs damage rather than actually healing? No because Lay on Hands 1) isn't a spell of the Conjuration (Healing) school, and 2) Doesn't mimic a spell of the Conjuration (Healing) school. It's a unique effect that is not identified as Conjuration (Healing).
Kid SixXx 03-28-07, 11:52 AM	But you just pointed out that the text does contain the line "gain the benefit of the heal spell as if it was cast..." Yeah, the "as if" clause doesn't really throw me. The wording directly references the spell the stance mimics and the effect of the Heal spell & the school it belongs to are easily researched in the PHB. That being said, how hard can it be to go the substitution level route and create an alternate "Repair" version of the strike that Warforged can take?
Edymnion 03-28-07, 02:11 PM	the benefit of the heal spell is not exactly the heal spell. It's just what the heal spell does, not what it is. The conjuration (healing) school and subschool aren't part of the benefit of the spell, they're just classifications for what the spell is. But this isn't a spell, it's a maneuver that grants the benefits of the spell, which specifically are points of healing.For anyone else that would be the benefit. If Heal was cast on him, there would be no benefit. Doesn't matter how powerful the Heal is, it would always restore 0 hp to that character. Remember, it says "as if the spell had been cast on you". Not "a random person walking down the street", but specifically you. Immunity to healing subschool + "effects heal would have had on you" = nothing.
Lazaro 03-28-07, 04:44 PM	I'd have agree with the others and say that the manuever has no effect on you. For a definate answer I'd send this question to cust. service.
Edymnion 03-28-07, 06:37 PM	I'd have agree with the others and say that the manuever has no effect on you. For a definate answer I'd send this question to cust. service....and then do the exact opposite of whatever they tell you to do.
Cifer 03-28-07, 10:07 PM	...and then do the exact opposite of whatever they tell you to do. I wouldn't be too sure about that. After all, Cust Serv is practically bound to get it right somewhen simply by laws of probability. I'd advise asking them instead whether a paladin falls after killing an orc baby. Then, take the fourteenth letter of the response and convert it to ASCII - if it's an even number, the maneuver works, otherwise it doesn't.
keropie 03-28-07, 11:22 PM	I wouldn't be too sure about that. After all, Cust Serv is practically bound to get it right somewhen simply by laws of probability. I'd advise asking them instead whether a paladin falls after killing an orc baby. Then, take the fourteenth letter of the response and convert it to ASCII - if it's an even number, the maneuver works, otherwise it doesn't. Oh, if only there were an easier way to generate a pseudorandom number!