Post/Author/DateTime	Post
fletch137 11-28-07, 12:42 PM	What am I not seeing about the planes of Eberron? The planes of other campaign worlds feel almost cosmic. The Eberron planes just feel insignificant. They actually seem like little more than pocket dimensions(at best), and not the kind of places that make PCs go "woah!". With a scaling back of the power level on Eberron itself (an approach I'm very much in favor of), I'm looking to the planes as a source of adventure for higher level characters. I'm just missing the epic feel that would do justice to a higher level campaign. So, aside from the cool way they impact Eberron itself, what is appealing about the planes themselves? Why shouldn't I jettison the whole thing and replace it with the Great Wheel?
Rekko 11-28-07, 02:24 PM	Note that aside what's in the Eberron Campaign Setting book, we have no description of the planes. Some board members made initiative to try and describe a few planes, but that's it. Many of us are waiting for a Planes of Eberron book to get more fluff and crunch for our game. But for now, like much things in Eberron, it's up to the DM. The dynamic of the Eberron Planar System is new and appealing and makes the planes interact more with the material plane, as you mentioned. What you said about their size and 'challenge rating' if I may say, is not true since it was never mentioned. The good news is you have to choose how to build the planes. You can make them as big and epic as the planes of the Great Wheel and still keep the orbits and manifest zones. Rekko
IMAL 11-28-07, 03:14 PM	Eberron's planes have snakes. All of them. We don't go to the planes mostly because we're tired of these mother f'ing snakes on these mother f'ing planes. Sorry.
Nived 11-28-07, 03:25 PM	I like how it doesn't try to shoehorn a bad facimily of Dante's Inferno into a non Christian setting.
Belabras 11-28-07, 05:28 PM	The simplest answer is - the planes aren't mapped out heavily to give you the opportunity to fill them with whatever you want! However, if that doesn't work for you, Gates of Night (the last book of the Dreaming Dark series) includes some plane hoping and descriptions of at least two planes. As far as high level adventure goes, check out Dragons of Eberron. You won't be dissappointed.
Sabyr400 11-29-07, 01:20 AM	I realize i'm not much help, because i don't really do planar travel. but thats because i've never run anything past 10 (currently running) and i've never played past 14. I've done one brief extra planar side quest, to the plane of light, in hopes of the palidin, whose best suited of the enviornment(valenar) and hoping she'd gain some leadership skills or social skills. but i didn't find it that invigorating, the BBEG that they chased there was the best part.
Gurv 11-29-07, 02:40 AM	What you are failing to see about Eberron's planes is...well, everything. Since nothing has really been revealed about them, there is nothing to see yet. And so you choose to believe nothing is there, that they somehow lack awesomeness. Obviously, you assume that without your Manual of the Planes and Planar Handbook to provide you with crappy tidbits of description, there can't be anything on Eberron's planes. They're not as infinite, nor as amazing. The one thing I do know is awesome about the planes surrounding Eberron is this: they belong to Eberron. They're not Earth mythology, stripped down and converted. There is no Mount Olypus, no River Styx. The cosmology literally revolves around Eberron, affecting it and being affected by it. The history of the world has been shaped by the planes. Switch over to the Great Wheel cosmology, and what do you really gain? You'll have to explain where quori came from, and why they can't physically invade any more. Same for the daelkyr. Manifest zones will require a nightmare of a rewrite too. Will souls start going to the properly aligned planes? What about the gods? Maybe they can start making regular appearance too. Why do people play on Eberron if all they want is the same old thing all the time?
skrap-san 11-29-07, 03:15 AM	Why do people play on Eberron if all they want is the same old thing all the time? I second that.
eehamburg 11-29-07, 10:05 AM	Why do people play on Eberron if all they want is the same old thing all the time? Hear! Hear!
fletch137 11-29-07, 06:29 PM	What you are failing to see about Eberron's planes is...well, everything. Since nothing has really been revealed about them, there is nothing to see yet. And so you choose to believe nothing is there, that they somehow lack awesomeness. So what you're saying is that the Eberron planes are cool because of what they're not? Nice pitch. It sounds like there just isn't much content to flesh them out, though. That's understandable, it's still a young setting. With that in mind, what do you all see as the potential of the Eberron planar system? Am I imagining a connection between the moons of Eberron and the planes? I know the "Baker's Dozen" is a common theme, but I vaguely recall reading something about how the now-missing 13th moon has only been seen referenced in old giant-ish 13-month calendars dating from before Quori was locked away. That interests me. For lack of a better alternative, maybe I'll go ahead with my vague ideas of pseudo Spelljammer setting that has the planes orbiting Eberron through the astral space that surrounds it. Any other thoughts?
Nived 11-29-07, 07:11 PM	In part, yes I do like Eberron's cosmology for what it isn't. It is devoid of Earth myths. There is no hell, no heaven, no elyssium, no valhalla... this is a HUGE bonus to me.
Rekko 11-29-07, 07:24 PM	So what you're saying is that the Eberron planes are cool because of what they're not? Nice pitch. Exactly. The Planes are briefly described and its up to each DM to build his own cosmology (until Planes of Eberron comes out). Here's (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=909460) is a thread on Dolurrh, if you are interesting in seeing what some here have done with it. Rekko
Neutronium_Dragon 11-29-07, 09:23 PM	I think it's also partly that they're not intended to function the way the core/Greyhawk/Planescape planes did. In that setting, the planes were "the big time" which you graduated to. Eberron doesn't portray the planes that way - the planes aren't "the big time", Eberron itself is.
fletch137 11-29-07, 10:00 PM	In part, yes I do like Eberron's cosmology for what it isn't. It is devoid of Earth myths. There is no hell, no heaven, no elyssium, no valhalla... this is a HUGE bonus to me. I dig that. I guess it's just the lack of anything to replace them with that's left me adrift. And thanks for the link, Rekko. I look forward to reading it.
Rekko 11-29-07, 10:56 PM	My pleasure. I think that there were other planes that might have got some attention from some board members, but I didn't work on other than Dolurrh and did look for them either. Anyhow, if you have other questions on the planes or you want some help developing your own planes, the board is a good place to get some help. I suppose you posted this thread because you want to do planar hoping, so which plane are you intrigued with? Rekko
Gurv 11-30-07, 12:21 AM	So what you're saying is that the Eberron planes are cool because of what they're not? Nice pitch. Certainly. Whatever else we learn about them, the one thing we do know for sure is that Eberron's planes are new, unique. I also say that just because we haven't uncovered a great deal of information about them is no reason to suggest that they're lacking. We're lacking, yes. So far. With that in mind, what do you all see as the potential of the Eberron planar system? Huge potential. I think the biggest change Eberron will bring to the planes is that on Eberron, the PCs are the heroes and the heroes don't need to be high level to make a difference. Already, the existence of manifest zones makes it easier for low-level characters to reach other planes. I would say that although the planes might still be filled with high-level and epic things, there will be many chances for low-level heroes to still make a difference. And I expect that simply being on another plane will mark a PC as important in the scheme of things: just as an outsider on the Material Plane is something to pay attention to, the denizens of the planes will treat the PCs as more than an insignificant mortal. Am I imagining a connection between the moons of Eberron and the planes? I know the "Baker's Dozen" is a common theme, but I vaguely recall reading something about how the now-missing 13th moon has only been seen referenced in old giant-ish 13-month calendars dating from before Quori was locked away. I hope to see some link between the moons and the planes. I don't think they should literally be one and the same though. More like metaphysical representations of one another. It would be interesting to learn what became of the 13th moon...some have suggested that it was forced onto Dal Quor during the magicks that the giants used to banish the plane. Something to be explored in Planes of Eberron: if the planes "orbit" Eberron, becoming coterminous when they are close and remote when they are far, how do their motions affect one another? Does Dolurrh ever become coterminous with Irian? Are Fernia and Risia always remote to one another, as I suspect? That presents an interesting concept, as it would prevent plane shifting from the hot plane to the cold plane without stopping somewhere else first.
Rekko 11-30-07, 09:07 AM	On that last idea that planes could interact with each other. I think that this concept would be interesting, not too much complicated to develop in crunch, but may pose a challenge in fluff development. Moreover, I always felt that Eberron was the center of attention in this setting, so I doubt that, for this reason, there will be some connections/interactions between the orbiting planes. If it would only be of me, I wouldn't make my orbiting planes interact with each other in the manner of manifest zone, but I would still allow planar hoping with a good percentage of spell failure, so that it encourages PCs to go back to the material plane before going to another plane. However, there is one thing that suggest interaction between the planes. The Daelkyr. "For the Daelkyr, destroying worlds appear to be a form of art" (ECS p.278) Does this suggest that the Daelkyr have destroyed other worlds? If yes, beside destroying Xoriat, what plane(s) could have suffered Daelkyr invasions, and how did the Daelkyr invaded them? Was it because of manifest zones between orbiting planes, or something else similar? I let you think about it. Rekko
fletch137 11-30-07, 09:57 AM	Huge potential. I think the biggest change Eberron will bring to the planes is that on Eberron, the PCs are the heroes and the heroes don't need to be high level to make a difference. Already, the existence of manifest zones makes it easier for low-level characters to reach other planes. That's the same vibe I'm getting, but I'm having trouble seeing that in a positive light. The fact that even low-level characters are the heroes of Eberron is a big draw to me. It just doesn't seem to provide a place to go after that. I mean, if by level 7 you've battled armies, travelled to alien planes, and become the hero of nations, what's there left to do at level 13? My old school AD&D paradigm wants me to think that the planes are the place for even grander adventures, but I'm not inspired by the planes of Eberron to that level. How's this for a concept. As far as I've gleaned the dragons (and others, I reckon) assembled the Draconic Prophecy by watching the the interaction of the moons with Syberis. If there's a connection between the moons and the planes (especially if the moons are just metaphysical representations of the planes), perhaps a high-level party adventuring on those planes could influence them enough to, in effect, re-write the draconic prophecies. Fer instance, if the party overthrows the Efrit king on Fernia, stargazers back on Eberron would suddenly notice that its corresponding moon glowed a little less brightly. Astrologers would then calculate a weaker inluence on blah blah blah and discover the new readings no longer suggest a rise of a new empire where there never was one, but instead the return of a previous empire to new power...or whatever. Altering the draconic prophecy sounds like a pretty good role for high level heroes. Any thoughts?
Webster 11-30-07, 10:37 AM	http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eb/20040309a&origin= Launch the orrery. :)
Rekko 11-30-07, 11:04 AM	Don't forget that while PCs level up, NPC do too. That's why they encourage us to use recurring villains. But once the villain is destroyed, you figure out that he was only a puppet in a greater mastermind schemes. Or killing the recurring villain opens the way to other evil to take more place. For instance, maybe the Lord of Blades is under the influence of Quoris or the Lord of Dust. Maybe destroying Vol will make the Mark of Death reappear, or a new 13th dragonmark will spawn with more devasting powers than the Mark of Death. Maybe Helping Aerenal to backoff the dragon invasion will lead into weakening the dragons, so the fiends and the daelkyr are strong enough to invade Eldeen Reaches, kill Olian and destroy some Seals leading to yet another Xoriat invasion. You finally awaken the people of Riedra who push away the influence of the Inspired, however, now unorganized, they pose a threat to themselves, crime rate is going higher every day and many want to escape to Khorvaire. There is a lot to be done. PCs are Heroes doesn't end there. There's much more to this than it appears. Things are rarely as they seem, and story doesn't always end well. Consider the impact of history, but also ON history. Now, you see there's a lot that can be done only on the material plane. I suggest you read the An Eberron Campaign section in the ECS. Back to the Planes, I've been reading the planes for this thread and found it written black on white that the planes do not have connections between each other (p.92 above the Random Planar Destination table). As I said in my previous post, this is to make a greater focus on the material plane. However, we can still do planar hoping. Here are some ideas I have for some adventures concerning the planes. Daanvi the perfect order: After the chaos of the Last War and the threat of an eminent Next War, the PCs decide to get the help of the inhabitants of this plane to reestablish order on Khorvaire. Or, you've finally pushed away the Inspired of Riedra, but criminality is at its peak, you get the help of ... get the point. I'll give you some more ideas later, my player just arrived, so we are now gaming :) Rekko
fletch137 11-30-07, 11:38 AM	I'll give you some more ideas later, my player just arrived, so we are now gaming :) Way to live the dream, friend. But while the planes don't connect to each other, there is the astral plane, a transitive plane that supposedly connects them all. Plane hopping could be managed without a return to mundanity if you passed through the astral each time. I'm also not opposed to the idea of the planes connecting. Even if they've never done it before, I can imagine a great campaign that has the players learning of an impending overlap of...I dunno...the fire plane and the faerie plane. While the story line may start with an invasion of the fey (who ain't all nice), the PCs can learn that they're fleeing their home plane. While most oreries model the planes as they apply to Eberron, a quest leads the PCs to one that shows the interactions of the planes with each other. There they learn that the disruption of Dol Quor's orbit has impacted the others so that Fernia and...umm...Feylandia will soon interface. Will the heroes save Feylandia by reopening Dol Quor? Can they duplicate the binding stones on Feylandia to ward off Fernia? What impact does the alteration of Xoriat have on the other planes.
Vharuck 11-30-07, 04:47 PM	A big element of Eberron that allows low-level PCs to be heroic while still permitting high-level play is the concept of the "latent doom." This is when something that could single-handedly wipe the surface of the world clean in a month doesn't do so because it isn't active. However, it can become active (coincidently, these evils seem to become active right when players reach higher levels, hmm ;)). Examples: - The Dreaming Dark takes a long-term, invisible hand approach. However, a massive war led by the powerful Inspired may be the next step in their plans. The PCs may have to fight the Inspired, or go to Dal Quor to fight the CR 20 quori leaders. -The Daelkyr have freed themselves. You now have at least 6 CR 20+ baddies and their armies rampaging across the land, which they leave warped. -A rajah is freed. -The dragons consider the mortal races to be getting as dangerous as the giants once were. Time to clean house again. -A kingdom of giants in Xen'Drik, under the command of an immensely powerful giant, have conquered Stormreach and are now building massive boats to hunt down and kill every last elf, whom they blame for the fall of their ancient empire.
ArcTan 12-01-07, 12:55 PM	Part of what's interesting about Eberron's planar structure is that, so far, they've kept the feel of being "other planets", of being remote and distant places you know very little about, that affect you in subtle ways by being there (planar conjunctions and such) but where actually *going* there isn't a thought that even comes up for most Eberronians. I dread the day Eberron gets its first "plane-hopping" Planescape-style adventure. I'm not a fan of such things.
Gurv 12-01-07, 07:31 PM	That's the same vibe I'm getting, but I'm having trouble seeing that in a positive light. The fact that even low-level characters are the heroes of Eberron is a big draw to me. It just doesn't seem to provide a place to go after that. I think your logic is flawed by the common misconception that Eberron can't support high-level campaigns. What the Eberron setting does that no other setting is designed to do is allow low-level adventures. But that doesn't mean that high-level adventuring is difficult on Eberron. A lack of high-level NPCs actually means that there is more for high level characters to do, not less. There are plenty of threads that discuss the huge potential Eberron has for high-level and epic adventure. I expect that Eberron's planes should be the same. That doesn't mean that there won't be more high CR, epic, and godlike beings on the planes than there are on the material plane. I just think that, as on the material plane, there will be reasons that those beings can be thwarted by lower-level PCs. So far, the creators of the setting have come up with brilliant fluff to this end, and I hope to see more of that. As far as the planes interacting with one another, I see the effects as much being less than they are on Eberron. The other planes orbit Eberron, meaning that it is central and will be constantly affected by their movements. But like moons orbiting a gas giant, the planes should have some effects on one another. I do think that they can be coterminous and remote to one another: but such periods would be shorter and more rare than they are with Eberron. But I imagine also that they would be more spectacular: while the material plane is somewhat neutral and generally plays well with others, the other planes are extreme. Obviously plot hooks galore, when planar conjunctions of such significance come to pass.
Wizardman 12-03-07, 03:26 AM	Part of what's interesting about Eberron's planar structure is that, so far, they've kept the feel of being "other planets", of being remote and distant places you know very little about, that affect you in subtle ways by being there (planar conjunctions and such) but where actually *going* there isn't a thought that even comes up for most Eberronians. I dread the day Eberron gets its first "plane-hopping" Planescape-style adventure. I'm not a fan of such things. I'd have to disagree. There has to be a Planes of Eberron book sooner or later, and adventures which can take the PC's out into the planes, and I salivate at the prospect. One of my favourite quotes says it better than I can: "It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires, both subtle and gross, but it's not for the timid." - Q I want to go to Dal Quor to prevent the quori from bringing the Region of Dreams any closer to Eberron. I want to navigate my way through the Endless Battleground in search of a way home (and likely tipping the balance there, if only for a little while). I want to fly with the angels of the Azure Sky, to walk under the trees of the Twilight Forest, and to dance with the fey of the Faerie Court. I want to churn with the chaos of Kythri and marvel at the clockwork metropoli of the Perfect Order (are they clockwork? I want to find out!). Bring on the Eternal Day and the Endless Night! Dodging waves from the Sea of Fire? Trying to keep my manly bits from freezing off in the Plane of Ice? Those sound like fun! Okay... maybe not that last... I never said I was completely sane, but what adventurer is? Our profession attracts madness-- if you aren't just a little bit crazy when you start, you become just a little bit crazy in short order. (Well, I don't want to go to Xoriat. I'm not that crazy, thanks. Also, while I'll probably end up in Dolurrh one day, I wish to postpone that journey for as long as possible)
fletch137 12-03-07, 09:07 AM	Also, while I'll probably end up in Dolurrh one day, I wish to postpone that journey for as long as possible) Hah! That aside, Dolurrh does lend itself to a pretty keen adventure idea. With resurrection spells in short supply around Eberron, a quest to the Haunted City to gain access to the realm of the dead to bring back a fallen comrade would fill a night or two.
Vharuck 12-03-07, 11:07 AM	What I like about the Eberron cosmology versus that of Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms is how, aside from manifest zones, most of the planes aren't a huge concern to the material plane unless there's a good story reason. Xoriat was a problem because the daelkyr wanted new subjects to experiment on (maybe, you never know with those wacky aberrations), and Dal Quor only influences the material plane because the quori think that Eberron's stagnation will benefit their own plane. Otherwise, there aren't planar incursions. The material plane doesn't become the Day's Inn for plane-hopping outsiders. And it makes sense. Why would a balor living on Fernia care about the material plane? His actions would primarily only affect Fernia. But that balor could still be part of the campaign because, were the players to travel to Fernia (at the request of the Arcane Congress or something), now the balor's machinations could directly oppose or benefit the players. So, they're there if you want, but they're not shoved down your throat.
pogrom666 12-12-07, 04:31 PM	"It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires, both subtle and gross, but it's not for the timid." - Q Dude, thanks. Q makes everything awesome. I hope that a Planes of Eberron book does come out, but I don't want to have to switch to 4E or 4.0 or $E whatever it's called today. I want to stay in a 3.5 environment for at least a couple more years, simply because from what I understand Eberron is not going to be like Forgotten Realms, where each edition of the Setting is different because the FR is a 'story' in a sense. Did that make sense?
skrap-san 12-12-07, 04:48 PM	It made sense, but as I see it, Eberron will not be that hard to fit to 4th ed, makes me glad the books are so fluff heavy. But I will have to wait and see what 4th ed actually is before I pas my final judgment on that.
Rekko 12-12-07, 08:49 PM	Moreover, there isn't any 4th edition Eberron book coming out before late 2008 or even 2009. Well, at least, there isn't any planned yet. The two last 3.5 Eberron books will be City of Stormreach and Eberron Survival Guide. Rekko
clayball 12-24-07, 06:19 PM	Eberrons planes are cool because you do not need to be high level to get their or adventure their. If you fall into a volcanoe, your next adventure is on the plane of fire. The manifest zones allow for even low level characters to go on a cosmic road trip.
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 12-29-07, 08:15 AM	That would be short adventure, as the fire-dominant trait would kill of the unprepared low-level adventurers in a matter of seconds. Travelling to other planes is not easier in Eberron as in Forgotten Realms, e. g. In Faerun, Portals and high level casters (i. e. Cleric 9th or higher) are common and somewhat easier to find (not necessarily easier to access, though) than manifest zones in Eberron. Surviving there is another matter entirely.
Gurv 12-29-07, 07:46 PM	That would be short adventure, as the fire-dominant trait would kill of the unprepared low-level adventurers in a matter of seconds. Travelling to other planes is not easier in Eberron as in Forgotten Realms, e. g. In Faerun, Portals and high level casters (i. e. Cleric 9th or higher) are common and somewhat easier to find (not necessarily easier to access, though) than manifest zones in Eberron. Surviving there is another matter entirely. I disagree completely. Sure, Faerun has the advantage when it comes to Other People Who Can Do It For You(TM), but that doesn't make it easier. Most players I know resist the idea of seeking someone else to perform amazing deeds for them anyway. As has been stated, the concept of manifest zones, as well as the ability of Eberron's planes to become coterminous and remote, allows for an in-game reason to make planar travel possible to characters of any level. Done in the context of a logical plot it never needs to seem contrived, nor are more capable beings put into the odd situation of sending less capable beings to do things for them. As for the fire-dominant trait of Fernia, yes it is a problem. But one that Eberron's wide magic concept provides for with ease, since the need to protect people and objects from fire is an everyday event which has been dealt with by magewrights and artificers since day one. When an Eberron character needs rings of fire resistance, it is not at all unreasonable to expect them to be available, even if one is not in a metropolis or hanging out with the Big E. One of the elements of Eberron remains that the PCs are the heroes, and that they are not a dime a dozen. Random portals to Fernia are not laying about in random dungeons, ready to TPK groups of first level adventurers who stumble across them. Any longstanding opening to another plane will have developed a story around it, which the PCs can use to explore and decide upon. If a portal has been in use, then the PCs can learn how to use it just as safely. A newly developed opening is going to be a subject of careful exploration, not suicidal behavior. And the scene: "You open the door. There is an orc guarding a chest. Behind the orc is a glowing portal. What do you do?" is not an example of a good Eberron adventure.
Amaril 12-29-07, 10:10 PM	What I like about the Eberron cosmology versus that of Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms is how, aside from manifest zones, most of the planes aren't a huge concern to the material plane unless there's a good story reason. Actually, that's not true. With planes entering coterminous and remote states and manifest zones all over the world, planar cosmology is something of which many of the common folk are aware. For more details about planar influences on Eberron's material plane, see the Eberron Under the Glass article titled "Planes and Adventuring." (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebug/20041213a)
Amaril 12-30-07, 04:59 AM	As an aside, is anyone else dissappointed that we won't see a version of Planes of Eberron for 3.5? I'll be sad to see 4e planar inhabitants with all their flavor revisions from 3.5.
Gurv 12-30-07, 07:34 AM	Actually, that's not true. By your own linked article also says: Even in Eberron, this planar awareness doesn't mean regular people know what those planes are like or what sort of creatures live there. Ask a magewright from Breland what creatures call Fernia home and he's not going to rattle off the monster types listed in the Eberron Campaign Setting; "fire monsters" is about all he can tell you. Even a talented general from Karrnath probably can't name any of the fortresses or leaders of Shavarath. The names and natures of the planes are known, but only scholars tend to have information worthwhile to an adventurer.
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 12-30-07, 08:16 AM	Most players I know resist the idea of seeking someone else to perform amazing deeds for them anyway. No Raise Dead, Restoration, Stone to Flesh, Remove Curse? No travelling by Eberron's own dragonmark powered Teleports? No Khelben who teleports the party to the woods near Temple Darkmoon to investigate it? As has been stated, the concept of manifest zones, as well as the ability of Eberron's planes to become coterminous and remote, allows for an in-game reason to make planar travel possible to characters of any level. Done in the context of a logical plot it never needs to seem contrived, nor are more capable beings put into the odd situation of sending less capable beings to do things for them. The example I responded to was "characters falling into a volcano". As for the fire-dominant trait of Fernia, yes it is a problem. But one that Eberron's wide magic concept provides for with ease, since the need to protect people and objects from fire is an everyday event which has been dealt with by magewrights and artificers since day one. When an Eberron character needs rings of fire resistance, it is not at all unreasonable to expect them to be available, even if one is not in a metropolis or hanging out with the Big E. A Ring of Fire Resistance would be a very, very unusual thing in a non-house-ruled Eberron, as it needs a 12th level cleric or wizard OR an even higher-level artificier. Also, I find it a bit contradicting not to allow/accept paying for services of higher level spellcaster (i. e. Planeshift), but handing out 28,000-GP-items created by a spellcaster of world wide fame. One of the elements of Eberron remains that the PCs are the heroes, and that they are not a dime a dozen. Random portals to Fernia are not laying about in random dungeons, ready to TPK groups of first level adventurers who stumble across them. Again: "party falling into a volcano". Of course the "natural portals" of Eberron can be used in an adventure. May even be nice. But it's commonplace for D&D campaign settings to have a method for this: portals/planeshift in Forgotten Realms, portals/vortices/planar paths in Planescape, the Mist/Vistani in Ravenloft. Dark Sun doesn't AFAIK, but that something of the point of the setting. I only argued that it's not a special thing in Eberron, only a (really not so) special flavor (which is actually pretty similar if not identical to the elemental vortices in Planescape).
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 12-30-07, 08:23 AM	As an aside, is anyone else dissappointed that we won't see a version of Planes of Eberron for 3.5? I'll be sad to see 4e planar inhabitants with all their flavor revisions from 3.5. Yes... Planes of Eberron would have been much, much more vital than Xen'drik / Argonessen / Dragons / ... sourcebooks IMO. The Planes are supposed to be an integral part of every Eberron Campaign, at least through their influence on worldy affairs. Access to the planes is as about easy as in other settings, and there's quite a lot of reason to go there for Eberron characters, I think. Some may even originate from other planes (one of the characters in our group belong to one of the planar druid sects). In the campaign setting, the descriptions are sketchy at best, though (e. g.: how densely are Eberron's planes inhabited?). Why then publish sourcebooks on lands far away, when the flavor useful to campaigning on Khorvaire isn't fully covered yet? Is there a release date for 4thEd Planes of Eberron? I'd suppose somewhen late 2009...?
Gurv 12-30-07, 07:59 PM	No Raise Dead, Restoration, Stone to Flesh, Remove Curse? No travelling by Eberron's own dragonmark powered Teleports? No Khelben who teleports the party to the woods near Temple Darkmoon to investigate it? No. None of these things would send any of my players whining to a high level NPC, and I would be disappointed if they tried it. In the case of the debilitating conditions, I expect that they would do what anyone in a modern setting might do: go to the hospital. In this case, House Jorasco. There is a difference, even if you cannot see it, in that such organizations exist to provide such services to anyone. In the case of Khelben teleporting PCs to Temple Darkmoon? No. It just doesn't make sense. When was the last time the PCs thought it was a good idea to send much lower-level minions into an important and potentially deadly situation? Khelben is much more capable of exploring than the PCs, and wouldn't send them to risk life and limb. Either the goal is important enough to go himself, or not important enough to send people to their deaths. The circumstances that would allow it to make sense are too rare to use more than once per campaign. Then again, in Eberron's case, it can and does make sense. The PCs are the highest-level, most capable people. It makes sense to have House Orien teleport them in, but not do the mission themselves. That teleporter is a high-level commoner, unable to face threats that a 5th level party would crush. A Ring of Fire Resistance would be a very, very unusual thing in a non-house-ruled Eberron, as it needs a 12th level cleric or wizard OR an even higher-level artificier. I suppose, if you're rulebound. As a DM, I don't find it necessary to justify everything with in-game statistics, all the time. But that's because I believe that the dragonmarked houses and other large organizations will have unique resources not available to the PCs. Schema, for example, are plot tools that allow the user to accomplish things otherwise impossible to low-level characters, such as creating thousands of conductor stones or everburning lanterns despite the "one magic item per day" rule. House Cannith might have a specialized Ringforge that allows those working there to create items as though they possessed the Forge Ring feat and a caster level of 15. Regardless of how it is done, my point is that Eberron provides logical ways that do not involve lower level characters begging favors from higher level ones. PCs are not left wondering why they're being send on difficult quests by people who could have done it themselves with a wave of their hand. Nor are they left thinking that they need to gain levels before saving the world. Also, I find it a bit contradicting not to allow/accept paying for services of higher level spellcaster (i. e. Planeshift), but handing out 28,000-GP-items created by a spellcaster of world wide fame. I don't contradict that. I contradict that there are enough high-level spellcasters available willing to be paid. I also contradict that high-level spellcasters are needed to create those magical items. Just because there are rules stating how they can do so, that doesn't mean that those are the only way. The economics of paying a spellcaster to cast spells also doesn't pan out. Obviously, the activities of the low-level characters produce large sums of money. Some of this money is gained by the high-level spellcasters when the low-level ones need spells cast. But it would make far more sense for the high-level spellcaster to simply accomplish the task themselves, gaining 100% of the profit with far less effort and risk. Clearly, this logic is set aside for the purpose of making a fun game. I approve of that! But I find it preferable to start with a logic that requires less ignoring in the first place. Again: "party falling into a volcano". Let's forget the volcano. Going into a volcano unprepared is deadly to anyone, regardless of level. I only argued that it's not a special thing in Eberron, only a (really not so) special flavor (which is actually pretty similar if not identical to the elemental vortices in Planescape). I agree with you there. Eberron merely added to it by codifying "manifest zones" as places where such planar bleed occurs. Using them as a place to slip over to another plane isn't original, really. Manifest zones become more interesting, to me, when they are used for reasons beyond Planescape's "natural portal" concept, and result in Sharn, Dreadhold, Aerenal, Lake Dark, and other interesting adventure locations that might never result in planar travel.
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 12-31-07, 07:22 AM	As the game you play obviously differs from the "official" D&D in key issues, I don't see any common ground for further discussion in this matter.
Gurv 12-31-07, 04:35 PM	As the game you play obviously differs from the "official" D&D in key issues, I don't see any common ground for further discussion in this matter. I've said it already on this thread: "Why do people play on Eberron if all they want is the same old thing all the time?" It got some support before, so at least I'm not alone, over here on the "uncommon ground".
Gurv 12-31-07, 04:58 PM	So anyway. To recap my thoughts on what makes Eberron's planes cool, I would say it's that they're designed just like the rest of Eberron. They're places that heroes can go, and make a difference, regardless of level. Various tools, like manifest zones, make getting there possible, as the plot requires. Manifest zones also have an "Eberron" feel to them, in that they're not ignored by the world as a whole; groups make use of their existence to accomplish things, as they have done in Sharn. The planes are unique to Eberron, not stolen from Earth mythology. Although some elements are obviously borrowed, it is only because those elements really fit Eberron. Nothing needs to be shoehorned, because everything was chosen because it either fit perfectly already or it was created solely for use in Eberron's cosmology. Although Eberron's cosmology has elements that make is accessible to low-level characters, they remain fantastic places with challenges far beyond most people. High-level characters have as much to challenge them as low-level characters. In the end, it isn't about hit points and spell access as much as it is about just being extraordinary.
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 01-01-08, 10:24 AM	An argumentation that part of an official campaign setting is "cool", based on deviation from official rules, is not all that convincing. For the given example (visiting a fire-dominant plane), you need a substantial deviation from the wealth guidelines and house rules removing the level requirement from Forge Ring. With a deviation of the same magnitude and removing the level requirement from a Cubic Gate, you have even more accessable planes. Compare to the following: "Ogres are too strong." "No, you are wrong there. I houseruled them to have a strength of only 14." When discussing your views with people outside your group, your own private house rules are not a good basis for discussion. There are "cool" things about the Eberron planes. It's not accessability at low levels. Accessablity is given in most settings, the tools for survival are not easier to get in Eberron. IMHO.
Rekko 01-01-08, 11:17 AM	I have to disagree with you, Evil_Wizard. The planes are cool for multiple reasons and all of them are good. True we could answer the question Why are the Eberron planes cool with the official rules. However, you could also answer with what the planes inspire you. So, I'd put houseruling as viable answers. I also have to agree with your last statement. Because the planes of Eberron are more accessible at lower level because of the manifest zones, survival on said planes is still an issue. However, I wouldn't mind challenging my low-level characters with a short planar adventure. Happy New Year Rekko
Pawndream 01-01-08, 12:23 PM	One thing I like about the way planes are handled in Eberron is that they do not neatly align with axiomatic alignments, so you don't have an entire plane that is filled with nothing but Chaotic Neutral creatures as an example. The Eberron cosmology reflects the settings blurring of alignment pretty well. I also like that the Eberron cosmology streamlines the number of planes out there to a more manageable number, while still presenting a playground for all the planar creatures in the D&D universe. The Great Wheel is cool, but I think Eberron's cosmology works better for the setting. The problem with Eberron's cosmology is that it puts more work on the DM to come up with what they are like. Which is a good thing. The players have no way of knowing what they are like in your campaign... until they go!
pmurray@bigpond.com 01-05-08, 11:03 PM	The planes are great for finessing plot hooks. I did a module once - stonedeath or something - and just dropped it in with the plot hook that the town astrologers had predicted a unfortunate conjunction of Dollurh and Mabar - death + negative energy - undead. Simple. No need for 100 years of background. Another time we were doing Savage Tide. The DM wanted a rest for a week or two, so we went off-plane to the plane of eternal conflict, to stop an Ultraloth auctioning off some nukes (the Baatezu and the Tanari were bidding).
Marcus Majarra 01-10-08, 07:23 PM	I think the Eberron planes are mainly unique in that, despite being remote worlds, they are accessible in many ways and at different degrees. Between planar conjunctions, manifest zones, and wild zones, not to mention direct planar travel, there are many ways to incorporate the planes of Eberron into any existing campaign. The nature of each plane, however, is nothing exceptional.The planes merely embody certain concepts, and these concepts are deliberately kept general in order to encompass a great variety of perspectives over that same concept, which I guess is another thing that makes the planes of Eberron unique.
Siran Dunmorgan 01-13-08, 03:10 PM	I think the Eberron planes are mainly unique in that, despite being remote worlds, they are accessible in many ways and at different degrees. Between planar conjunctions, manifest zones, and wild zones, not to mention direct planar travel, there are many ways to incorporate the planes of Eberron into any existing campaign. The nature of each plane, however, is nothing exceptional.The planes merely embody certain concepts, and these concepts are deliberately kept general in order to encompass a great variety of perspectives over that same concept, which I guess is another thing that makes the planes of Eberron unique. The planes merely embody certain concepts?? There's nothing "mere" about it. The Eberron Campaign Setting's planes are cool principally for that reason: because the planes aren't just goofy alien worlds. The Eberron Campaign Setting speaks of the Progenitors as having gathered the planes and attached them to the world, almost as if the Progenitors hoarded aspects of existence the way the dragons of today hoard gold and gems. But in doing so, they made the world as a whole: they attached Dream and Reality and Life and Death and Wonder and Madness together, set them on their paths, and made a whole, coherent world of them. Eberron's planes are cool because they are clearly parts of a whole continuity from which the world draws all that is, and then makes it work in a highly accessible game setting. And that's why Eberron's planes are cool. —Siran Dunmorgan
Marcus Majarra 01-13-08, 11:57 PM	The planes merely embody certain concepts?? There's nothing "mere" about it. You shouldn't take what I said negatively. As you said, the planes are Dream, Life, Death, Madness, Fire, Order, War, etc. They are merely concepts in that they are not tainted by some kind of specific purpose other than exemplifying these concepts. And I do think they are very cool precisely for this.