Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Splendide 05-04-07, 06:06 AM	They're the only race that has handling animals built right into the racial abilities. Who else can talk to burrowing mammals right out of the box?
Syltorian 05-04-07, 06:35 AM	They are too small to handle, say, a horse properly. ;) Perhaps the designers believed they had to make humans more interesting. Their abilities (bonus feat, and all) are good, but not very flavourful; giving them the greatest choice of dragonmarks would offset that. Humans are also the dominant race, on Khorvaire and, quite possibly (although I have no statistics) amongst players. Natural disposition does not matter for the Prophecy and the dragonmarks. It's halflings who have the Mark of Hospitality, even if gnomes can cast prestidigitation naturally, the reason why House Ghallanda hasn't gotten very far in Zilargo. If natural disposition would be a criterion, which of the human marks would be justified... Sentinel? Dwarves are more stable. Making? Dwarves get bonuses on many craft-skills. Passage? Halflings get bonuses on jump and climb. Lastly, it does not really fit in with gnomish culture. Overall, Zilargo does not strike me as a very nature-bound nation. Gnomes are plotters and scholars, not husbandsmen and hunters, despite being called "jungle rats" by the goblins of old. They show little interest in animals, who do not understand or are able to follow the little games the gnomes so delight in. Their ability to speak to burrowing mammals in atrophied power harking back to their barbaric days, long ago, not something they would use a lot. Maybe for spying... Humans, on the other hand, are versatile, so you can justify virtually every Mark for them. And, above all, they are pioneers. They expand into, and seek to control nature. Note that, according to the ECS, Vadalis' initial success was due to their ability to protect the settlers of the Reaches against nature's forces, not yet try and tame them. But above all... The ways of the Prophecy are unfathomable...
Cifer 05-04-07, 06:37 AM	Because. What, you expect more? Sorry, you're unlikely to get more. There is no obvious reason for the placing of the marks between the races. Why is House Deneith a human house when dwarves and half-orcs are much more fighty PHB races? Why is the Mark of Shadow not on the changelings? The reason is "because the prophecy says so".
Edymnion 05-04-07, 08:33 AM	Yes, few if any of the Dragonmarks actually compliment the strengths of the races they are found on.
Nuclear_Buddha 05-04-07, 10:11 AM	Because at least part of the "point" of the Eberron setting is iconoclastic behavior?
Alex_ 05-04-07, 02:12 PM	http://www.bossythecow.com/askthedreamingdark090606.htm " And gnomes? Despite their talents for alchemy and elemental binding, the gnomes are not the tinkers found in other settings. First and foremost, the gnomes are concerned with knowledge… and communication is a vital part of that. Words are the weapons of the gnomes, and as such, the Mark of Scribing is a good match for the Zil. And with THAT said, it was never the intention to match the marks to create some sort of super race-class-mark synergy. After all, the archetypal rogue is a halfling… but it's the elves who get the Mark of Shadows, while halflings have Hospitality and Healing (both of which are quite useful for primitive nomads!). Frankly, I like the fact that there is no single perfect artificer. Play a human artificer and you have the chance to be in Cannith and take the Mark of Making. Play a warforged artificer and you can infuse yourself, and explore the idea of the construct that is studying the principles that give it life. Play a dwarf artificer and you can be the magical smith you have in mind. All three are equally valid… though as Charisma is a useful ability for artificers, both dwarf and warforged take another slight hit there. The races of Eberron diverge from traditional archetypes. Halfling barbarians. The militant Tairnadal elves. The orc Gatekeepers. The image of the dwarf mage-smith has mythic resonance, and there are gifted dwarf artificers and magewrights in Eberron; if you check the features page, the magewright Golan Dol is a dwarf, and he's one of the best smiths of the age. But House Cannith is a house of innovation and change – and humans have always had a knack for that. " The marks in the setting speak more for that race's role in the setting than actual mechanical benefits. If you look at how the Dragonmarks relate to culture, then they begin to make more sense than if you look at how they relate to racial strengths/weaknesses. Also, Scribing does make mechanical sense for Gnomes seeing as their favored class is Bard: a class where communication and information are of critical importance.
Splendide 05-05-07, 07:15 AM	In that case I have a different question. Why doesn't gnome culture represent their racial affinity to burrowing mammals?
Alex_ 05-05-07, 11:39 AM	Before modern times- at least as far back as the reign of the Dhakaani Empire- Gnomes were more primitive and lived mostly underground. Despite numerous attempts by the Dhakaani to bring them under their rule, the Gnomes managed to fight them off. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041129a Gnomes in Eberron are highly associated with knowledge, speech, and communication. They are the only PHB race that has the ability to communicate with things that usually can't speak. And so they speak with animals that are like them: smaller terrestrial animals like rabbits, badgers, weasels, foxes, etc. Those kinds of animals tend to be burrowers. These are the animals Gnomes were most likely to keep as pets, use for hunting, raise for food, etc. I suppose they didn't spent much time hanging out with creatures so much larger than them like deer or bears, or those that lived in trees, swam in the water, or flew, like squirrels, eels, or birds. So they never developed as deep a connection with those animals.
Edymnion 05-05-07, 01:20 PM	And so they speak with animals that are like them: smaller terrestrial animals like rabbits, badgers, weasels, foxes, etc. Those kinds of animals tend to be burrowers. These are the animals Gnomes were most likely to keep as pets, use for hunting, raise for food, etc.Just as a quibble, I don't think most people tend to raise things for food that they can talk to. Anybody remember the cows from The Resteraunt at the Edge of Forever? You know, the ones that walked out and told you which part of them was tastiest that night.
Alex_ 05-05-07, 02:21 PM	Just as a quibble, I don't think most people tend to raise things for food that they can talk to. People (I assume you're referring to real world Humans) aren't Gnomes either, but I see what you're getting at :P I suppose you can say they stopped eating them after their close connections allowed them to realize just went on inside their heads. Druids, Bards, and Rangers of countless races can speak with animals and plants, but that doesn't seem to keep them from eating them either. Perhaps Gnome culture is more reverent and respectful of the animals they eat, raising them in a very human fashion, only eating those who have died of natural causes, making sure to use every part of the animal, etc. Kind of like how the Elemental Scions of Zilgaro seek to peacefully negotiate with elementals to gain access to their powers and bind them into grafts and vessels instead of forcibly doing so.
DyloniusFunk 05-05-07, 02:33 PM	You may as well ask why Dwarves get bonuses against Giants when in Eberron their racial histroy shows that most of thier fighting is either against the Orcs of the Holds, or agaisnt each other. Or why Halflings get a bonus to Climb, Move Silently and Jump. After all those don't sound the kind of skills you develop living in a tribe of dinosour ridings moving amongst the wide open planes. Dinos aren't known for nbeing quiet and there isn't a lot to climb on. The reason is that these abilities were written for Core D&D, but Eberron made the races different so that while the abilities still exist, sometimes it's hard to connect them back to the races origins in the Eberron world.
Alex_ 05-05-07, 08:13 PM	You may as well ask why Dwarves get bonuses against Giants when in Eberron their racial histroy shows that most of thier fighting is either against the Orcs of the Holds, or agaisnt each other. [quote] There are plenty of Trolls and Ogres in the Iron Root mountains too in addition to the Goblins of the old Dhakaani Empire. [quote] Or why Halflings get a bonus to Climb, Move Silently and Jump. After all those don't sound the kind of skills you develop living in a tribe of dinosour ridings moving amongst the wide open planes. They're naturally more athletic than the other races. That's even the explanation they provide in the PHB. Dinos aren't known for nbeing quiet and there isn't a lot to climb on. Depends on what kind were' talking about. Talenta Halflings seem to be most fond of various species of raptor, which are supposed to be hunters, and in D&D do receive a bonus to hide and move silently checks. There aren't very many larger dinosaurs on Khorvaire. Argonessen and Xendrik are where the larger varieties can be readily encountered. Halflings themselves have it because they're naturally good at sneaking around and hunting. The reason is that these abilities were written for Core D&D, but Eberron made the races different so that while the abilities still exist, sometimes it's hard to connect them back to the races origins in the Eberron world. That is the ultimate answer. I'm just trying to remind folks that they did put some thought into it when deciding how the races fit into the world though.
Splendide 05-06-07, 03:05 AM	That is the ultimate answer. I'm just trying to remind folks that they did put some thought into it when deciding how the races fit into the world though.Yep. And I'd say the biggest disconnect is between Eberron gnomes and their ability to talk to burrowers. Dragonshard worthy IMO.
Cifer 05-06-07, 02:53 PM	Or why Halflings get a bonus to Climb, Move Silently and Jump. After all those don't sound the kind of skills you develop living in a tribe of dinosour ridings moving amongst the wide open planes. Dinos aren't known for nbeing quiet and there isn't a lot to climb on. Well, that's simple: Halflings have got to mount their dinosaurs somehow, don't they? Comparing relative sizes, that sounds a lot like climbing.
Hellcow 05-06-07, 05:19 PM	If I ever have the opportunity to write a full Five Nations style piece on Zilargo, I'll certainly address the role this ability has had on the history and modern culture of the Zil, Splendide. It's certainly a fascinating thing that should be reflected in society. And it's certainly something that has evolved over time. In the Dhakaani era, the gnomes WERE essentially tunnel dwellers; now they're city dwellers. Their use of this gift has evolved as their culture has. With that said, they don't have the Mark of Handling because the marks aren't genetic. They aren't mutations reflecting an evolution of natural racial abilities. They reflect the role a handful of specific bloodlines - not even races, since you have to have a blood tie to the house to develop a mark - have to the Prophecy. There's dozens of logical combinations you could come up with. Gnomes should have Handling, because they have a magical connection to animals. Gnomes should have Making, because they're tinkerers (which they aren't, but that's another story). Dwarves should have Making, because they're smiths. Dwarves should have Finding, because they're miners. And so on, and so on. But at the end of the day, the marks aren't about race, or evolution: they are magical gifts tied to specific bloodlines.
AllWillFall2Me 05-06-07, 06:43 PM	Hellcow, I don't mean to sound presumptuous, and this has probably been addressed before, but if it's a bloodline thing, and not a racial, couldn't it be possible for cross-bred member of the house? I know when marks cross things go crazy, but what if a human with the mark of Making fell in love with a normal orc? Couldn't their resulting offspring (half-orc) be applicable for the mark as well? Again, if this is already addressed, my apologies.
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 05-06-07, 06:52 PM	You may as well ask why Dwarves get bonuses against Giants when in Eberron their racial histroy shows that most of thier fighting is either against the Orcs of the Holds, or agaisnt each other. Ogres and trolls in the mountains and in Frostfell, meant that giant fighting was part of there savage past, being traditonal the dwarves maintian the fighting traditions of old.
Hellcow 05-06-07, 06:54 PM	Hellcow, I don't mean to sound presumptuous, and this has probably been addressed before, but if it's a bloodline thing, and not a racial, couldn't it be possible for cross-bred member of the house? I misspoke. It's both bloodline AND racial. My point is that the Mark of Scribing isn't a trait of the gnomes; it's a trait of the Sivis lines of gnomes. However, it is still confined to the gnomes, and can't be crossbred - just as the Mark of Storms and Mark of Detection can only be possessed by Khoravar and can't be passed to human children of the house, and just as the Mark of Finding can't be inherited by orc heirs. The point is that dragonmarks *aren't* simply genetic. They aren't mutations. The fact that they are passed through houses clearly has meaning, but the fact that a half-elf CAN'T inherit the Mark of Making from his Cannith father shows that there is more than biology at work. These are marks of the Prophecy, and their true nature and purpose is something that has yet to be revealed.
Just another user 05-06-07, 07:12 PM	The point is that dragonmarks *aren't* simply genetic. They aren't mutations. The fact that they are passed through houses clearly has meaning, but the fact that a half-elf CAN'T inherit the Mark of Making from his Cannith father shows that there is more than biology at work. These are marks of the Prophecy, and their true nature and purpose is something that has yet to be revealed. Just curious but what if this Half elf (or even one of his descendant) had succesively a human child? Do you think it would be possible for him to have the mark of making?
NthDegree256 05-07-07, 11:24 AM	Just curious but what if this Half elf (or even one of his descendant) had succesively a human child? Do you think it would be possible for him to have the mark of making? I'll jump in here and point out that Keith has said "no, but it's your game and if you want to do it, go ahead" in response to this sort of question a few times before.
Hellcow 05-07-07, 01:56 PM	Just curious but what if this Half elf (or even one of his descendant) had succesively a human child? Do you think it would be possible for him to have the mark of making? What a DM does in his own campaign is his own business. However, in my campaign and by the RAW, no.
Marcus Majarra 05-07-07, 06:32 PM	If anything, the gnome lifestyle and dragonmark is more representative of their racial favored class: the bard. Hands down, the bard is the master of knowledge, is armed with an arsenal of skills devoted for intrigue, gets speak language as a class skill, has a truckload of abilities that are based on his ability to keep his audience focused through song or poetics, plus he gets spells that fill the Zil niche quite deftly. In Eberron, gnomes are hands down the race for whom the favored class fits most nicely. Warforged and kalashtar come close (although they seem to also fit very well into barbarian and soulknife roles respectively).
Siberys 05-07-07, 09:41 PM	Just as a quibble, I don't think most people tend to raise things for food that they can talk to. Anybody remember the cows from The Resteraunt at the Edge of Forever? You know, the ones that walked out and told you which part of them was tastiest that night. HGttG, right? It's actually the Restaurant at the End of the Universe, but it's not like it's important (or is it?). IMC, I'm remodeling the gnomes mechanically. I never thought the animal-speech fit the race in the first place anyway.
ryanroyce 05-07-07, 11:55 PM	HGttG, right? It's actually the Restaurant at the End of the Universe, but it's not like it's important (or is it?). IMC, I'm remodeling the gnomes mechanically. I never thought the animal-speech fit the race in the first place anyway. I've done this, too. In my game, the gnomes get amanuensis, comprehend language (text only), and scholar's touch, each 1/day. They also retain prestidigitation, which they can cast at will.
Splendide 05-08-07, 03:00 AM	If I ever have the opportunity to write a full Five Nations style piece on Zilargo, I'll certainly address the role this ability has had on the history and modern culture of the Zil, Splendide. It's certainly a fascinating thing that should be reflected in society. And it's certainly something that has evolved over time. In the Dhakaani era, the gnomes WERE essentially tunnel dwellers; now they're city dwellers. Their use of this gift has evolved as their culture has.We can only dream.
DyloniusFunk 05-09-07, 09:27 AM	Ogres and trolls in the mountains and in Frostfell, meant that giant fighting was part of there savage past, being traditonal the dwarves maintian the fighting traditions of old. The Dwarves coming out of Frostfell is still only myth as far as i know and from all i've read the only monsters they dealt with primarily were the Orcs. I don't have my books on hand but i don't recall trolls or giants in the Mror Holds. A DM could add them but as far as i know the dwarves were either fighting orcs or each other.
Ardent 05-12-07, 06:13 PM	Yes, few if any of the Dragonmarks actually compliment the strengths of the races they are found on. The exception being those that appear on Humans and Half-elves, since they're basically vanilla to begin with? ;)