A Valenar war band [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Valenar war band [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Phaseroth
08-13-07, 03:09 AM Just for fun, I've put together an NPC Valenar war band. I figured I'd run it by you folks to see what you think. They're all Valenar elves, of course, and I've "houseruled" that Valenar elves get Martial Weapon Proficiency (Scimitar) to replace the racial MWP (Rapier) feat.

The core of the war band is as follows:

Dailan Jemuir: CN male elf ranger 10; archery; No animal companion — instead, I decided to give him the Distracting Attack alternate class feature from Player's Handbook II. Armed with a frost composite longbow (+2 STR). Armor is +2 darkleaf breastplate. Dailan commands the war band.

Niath Jemuir: CN female elf cleric 9 (Spirits of the Past); Domains: Revered Ancestor and War; fights with "deity's" favored weapon, the Valenar double scimitar (flaming/keen). Armor is +2 darkleaf breastplate. Niath is Dailan's older sister.

Aeraes Praevilo: CN male elf fighter 8; wields a Valenar double scimitar (frost/shock and wears +2 darkleaf banded mail.

Thail Gantea: N male elf scout 8; Wears a +2 mithral shirt and fights with a shock composite longbow (+1 STR).

Dailan, Aeraes, and Thail ride Valenar riding horses, while Niath rides a light horse.

To fill out the party, Dailan and Niath both have the Leadership feat (I've even named these guys, just for the heck of it):

Dailan's cohort:
Carados Alanadel, CN male ranger 8 (archery), hawk animal companion

Dailan's follower:
Taleraed Derunadel, CG male expert 1. Taleraed takes care of all the horses. He has ranks in Craft (leatherworking), Handle Animal, Profession (animal trainer), Ride, Survival, and Use Rope. He also has the Skill Focus (Handle Animal) feat.

I'll probably add a 1st-level scout or two, as well as a handful of 1st-level warriors to round out Dailan's group of followers.

Niath's cohort:
Sonnae Anshaer, CN male fighter 7. Sonnae serves as Niath's personal guard. He fights with a +1 scimitar and wears +1 full plate.

Niath's followers:
Elenwyd Mendeliir, N female elf cleric 2 (Spirits of the Past); Domains: Destruction and Protection; Feat: Spell Focus (necromancy)

Obyn Jorudel: N male elf adept 1; usually prepares healing spells. Feat: Skill Focus (Heal)

Ninafer Galacia: CN female adept 1; usually prepares spells useful for survival, and is mainly in charge of foraging food for the party. Feat: Skill Focus (Survival)

Sound like a sensible war band?
Shady314
08-13-07, 06:57 AM Sensible? Well it sounds like a bad ass war band. They'd be widely known and feared.

Few things to consider.

1) The "typical" Valenar is a 4th level ranger. So if you're going to "fill" out the warband a warrior 1 or 2 would be a laughing stock amongst the Valenar. They'd be lvl 4 rangers. Maybe some level 3 inexperienced ones. I'd think lvl 1 and 2 rangers are the young elves that haven't yet fully passed into the ranks of the true Valenar and probably aren't yet considered true warriors/adults.

2) Taking care of the sacred horses of the Valenar is a job for their druids or the horses rider. I don't see them having a lvl 1 expert to take care of their horses. They'd handle that themselves. Not that every Valenar has a horse though, especially one of the warhorses but if someone needs to handle the horses one of the Rangers will handle that happily and much better.

Valenar warbands also don't deal so much with logistics. That's what half-elves, especially Lyrandar are for. A warband would need to be self-sufficient and able to live off the land. They are first and foremost guerillas. So they aren't going to need to worry about stableing their mounts or anything. Only if they were to stop at a city for awhile and in that case their mounts would still probably be tended to by the Rangers and the stable would be ran by half-elves.

3) I'll assume the point of making the warband is for a possible PC encounter? In which case the mix of low levels with very high levels will be odd. If your PCs are at the high levels the low level NPC classed Valenar is obliterated in a single sword swipe before you come to the actual threats. I'd want to keep the Valenar on equal footing to the PCs so each one is a challenge and they can see where the Valenar get their reputation from.

PS. In case you haven't read the Dragonshard
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041011a
It's a great source for this. It also shows your"houserule" isn't much of one. :) Valenar replace racial longsword proficiency with scimitar.
Alex_
08-13-07, 09:56 AM Also, after Ranger, the most common class seen amongst Valenar would probably be Wizard and Bard. Bards are common alongside Clerics amongst their clergy. Bard brings knowledge of the past (important to the Valenar), the ability to inspire each other verbally (war cries, recounting deeds of ancestors, etc), a little bit of arcane spellcasting built upon deception and manipulation (favored tactic of the Valenar), great skill list (again, a great compliment to the Ranger list), and the highest BaB of any core arcane casting class (Valenar are warriors).

I'd also imagine the Arcane Archer or Eldritch Knight prestige classes would be common amongst their kind, mixing martial and arcane spellcasting disciplines, with one of them being restricted to Elves.
Phaseroth
08-13-07, 01:40 PM 3) I'll assume the point of making the warband is for a possible PC encounter? In which case the mix of low levels with very high levels will be odd. If your PCs are at the high levels the low level NPC classed Valenar is obliterated in a single sword swipe before you come to the actual threats. I'd want to keep the Valenar on equal footing to the PCs so each one is a challenge and they can see where the Valenar get their reputation from.
All of your comments are good ones. I'll answer this one by saying, "this warband is here to be negotiated with/befriended/a source of information and advice, or simply an obstacle that requires brains rather than brawn to overcome." For example, a low-level party of PCs might be intending to cross the border into Valenar, and find themselves confronted by this group. It is discovered that one of the PCs is a dragonmarked member of House Vadalis. According to Dragonmarked, Vadalis heirs are banned from entering Valenar, due to hard feelings over some stolen Valenar horses at some point in the past. Upon learning this the elves, who may have been willing to "escort" the PCs to their destination, abruptly inform them that the Vadalis member must remain behind.

This is one reason I gave the primary warband characters the fancy darkleaf armor: I want the low-level PCs to be able to tell at a glance that they're completely outclassed, to discourage those players who have a, shall we say, video game mindset. It's why I also made them all neutral rather than evil — "opponent" does not equal "villain".

As for the low-level elves: They're primarily non-combatants who would only fight in self-defense. If they're encountered alone (say they're tending the camp while the high-level elves are off raiding or patrolling), and the PCs attack and kill them, the PCs are going to find themselves in a heap of trouble when the main group returns and discovers the murders :D

Primarily, though, since I don't actually have a campaign to use these guys in yet, I made this warband as an exercise for myself. Two main goals I hoped to accomplish: 1) learn to construct a logical party of Valenar, and 2) familiarize myself with the workings of the Leadership feat, something that hasn't come up in any of the games I've played in.

PS. In case you haven't read the Dragonshard
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041011a
It's a great source for this. It also shows your"houserule" isn't much of one. :) Valenar replace racial longsword proficiency with scimitar.
:blush: I actually did read that Dragonshard some time back, and I had forgotten this. I think I've seen people suggesting "scimitar instead of rapier" so many times on the boards that it overwrote my memory of what Keith said. Easy enough to fix :)

Alex_: All good suggestions :)

I see I'll need to do some reworking.
Hellcow
08-14-07, 07:48 PM For what it's worth, I lean towards rangers instead of fighters because Valenar tactics are based on stealth and mobility as much as pure combat. This obviously doesn't rule out a pure fighter, or a ranger/fighter - and the scout is an excellent Valenar class for this reason. But the skill set of the ranger is as important as the magic or animal companion; the point is that Valenar soldiers often have keen eyes and the ability to move unseen and live off the land. They are commandos as opposed to pure shock troops.

Another point is that while what you have done is precisely on-mark for use of the Leadership feat, carting around a bunch of followers is a little awkward for a warband. Warbands are traditionally small groups of roughly the same skill level, so no one is dragging the others down. When you're dealing with what is obviously an elite force (9th-10th level characters), if they are going to seek out situations that provide a challenge for the high-level characters, the 1st-levels are going to be a liability. And as others have pointed out, the typical Valenar is 4th level; there ARE lower level Valenar (such as most PCs), but it's against tradition for them to leave Aerenal until they have reached the standards of the culture... in part because they're seen as being unable to contribute to the operations of a warband.

Anyhow, obviously it's good work, and don't let any of my concerns dissuade you. And on the fighter thing, as I said there's nothing wrong with having a few pure fighters in warbands; it's just that the ranger or scout is more common because it suits their style of battle. (This is touched on most recently in Forge of War.)
Phaseroth
08-14-07, 10:59 PM Another point is that while what you have done is precisely on-mark for use of the Leadership feat, carting around a bunch of followers is a little awkward for a warband. Warbands are traditionally small groups of roughly the same skill level, so no one is dragging the others down. When you're dealing with what is obviously an elite force (9th-10th level characters), if they are going to seek out situations that provide a challenge for the high-level characters, the 1st-levels are going to be a liability.
True dat. My thinking was that even a small, mobile force like a warband will need to periodically return to a home base of some sort, if for no other reason than that if they're out raiding they're eventually going to have, erm, "liberated" more than they can easily carry with them. So they would have wagons of some sort into which they can unload their haul. They'd also need a place where they can perform maintenance on weapons and armor, i.e. the kinds of repairs that can't be easily performed in the field, so I pictured the camp including a small forge with appropriate tools. I can't picture a Valenar charging into battle with an anvil in his saddlebags :D

And as others have pointed out, the typical Valenar is 4th level; there ARE lower level Valenar (such as most PCs), but it's against tradition for them to leave Aerenal until they have reached the standards of the culture... in part because they're seen as being unable to contribute to the operations of a warband. Anyhow, obviously it's good work, and don't let any of my concerns dissuade you.
As it happens, I've already started reworking the warband with 4th-5th level characters (which obviously rules out Leadership).

And on the fighter thing, as I said there's nothing wrong with having a few pure fighters in warbands; it's just that the ranger or scout is more common because it suits their style of battle. (This is touched on most recently in Forge of War.)
Re: the fighter - One thing I've never liked in the published adventures my DM runs is that I always feel as if the PCs are fighting groups of clones. Say we take on and defeat a party of six hobgoblins. We'll loot the first five bodies and find five identical weapons, five identical suits of armor, five identical potions, and five coin pouches, each containing the same number and type of coins. The sixth hobgoblin, clearly the leader, will have masterwork versions of the same weapon and armor, a few more coins, and perhaps a minor magic item. "Treasure" like that suggests to me "standard issue", which in turns suggests mass production and a more organized military than is likely in such an encounter.

So part of my goal is to make each member of the NPC party unique in some way, to keep the PCs on their toes. If they're confronted with four similarly dressed Valenar, it might be natural for them to assume they're facing four rangers (perhaps a Knowledge (history) check told them that "most Valenar are rangers") ... until they find themselves being Power Attacked by one elf while another goes skirmishing through their midst, and a third presses her attack with her double scimitar and then hits them with cause fear. Think the recent King Arthur movie with Clive Owen and Keira Knightley. Each of the knights was unique in arms & armor, in skill set, and fighting style, and though most were fighters, at least one was a ranger (Tristan?); Arthur himself was probably closest to a marshal.

I've got Forge of War sitting here waiting for me to finish Secrets of Sarlona :)
Hellcow
08-14-07, 11:42 PM Having written this, let me reiterate that all this is just my opinion, as I've got my own views of the Valenar. It's your warband and your game, so you do whatever the %^&#$ you want with it. ;)

if for no other reason than that if they're out raiding they're eventually going to have, erm, "liberated" more than they can easily carry with them.
Bear in mind that booty isn't really the motivating factor of the Valenar as a whole. Sure, it never sucks - you've got to pay for saddle-soap somehow - but the raiding is more about the challenge than the goods gained, and I could easily see many Valenar leaving valuable but heavy goods behind. The need for repairs is a good point, and this is the main reason you have forts in Valenar... at the same time, this is also an argument for Valenar relying on light armor and avoiding things like plate that will require an anvil to repair. If different members of the band included a fletcher, a weaponsmith and armorer who can perform light repairs, and possibly a wizard with mending, you can survive for a while without needing a permanent camp.

Re: the fighter - One thing I've never liked in the published adventures my DM runs is that I always feel as if the PCs are fighting groups of clones.
Oh, I hate that too. And Valenar SHOULD be individuals. If you're making characters, one key point to consider is who their patron ancestors were. That's what generally defines the skills and aspirations of a Valenar, because they are seeking to BE that ancestor. They want to BE King Arthur or Kiera Knightly. This is going to determine things like philosophy regarding the treatment of enemies, favored enemies, and so on.

My point is that if you have a fighter 2/ranger 2 you've got a very different character than a fighter 4. He still gets two bonus feats to focus on pure military skill, but he still has SOME skill with Move Silently, Spot, Listen, and Hide - he's not a total drag when situations call for these. Likewise, two ranger 6s can be quite different:
Ranger #1 focuses her feats and character abilities on archery; has a falcon as her animal companion; and has giants and humans as her favored enemies.
Ranger #2 focuses his feats and character abilities on skill with the double scimitar, including Bladebearer of the Valenar and Power Attack. His warhorse is his animal companion, and his favored enemies are humans (dues to the Last War) and goblinoids (due to his patron's heroics in the war against the Dhakaani). He enjoys any battle, but takes greatest pleasure in fighting goblinoids and encourages the group to raid in Darguun.
Throw in a bard 5/ranger (or scout) 1, a scout 6, a wizard 5/ranger 1 (who can use mage armor in lieu of actual armor) and you have a group with diverse talents, but all capable of devoting ranks to Hide, Stealth, Listen, Ride; the weakest link will be the wizard, but he can keep invisibility on hand. Multiclassing is way to give each character some unique flavor while still providing an overlapping skill set; a fighter with a few levels of scout or ranger CAN participate in a stealth mission, whereas with no levels and heavy armor he's a stick in the mud.

The key issue is that all members of the group are capable of carrying out the combat missions of the band. A warband is a unit of a war clan of the Valaes Tairn. An independent band may not be in service at the moment, but it's still made up of people who have trained and served together for decades, and who will eventually rotate back into active service. It's not a random group of people who've ended up together; it's a group of people chosen for the compatability of their patron ancestors and because their skills make them very effective at a particular type of military operation. A full-on front-line battle force would be more likely to include more fighter levels, though possibly a level or two of ranger or scout so stealth is an option. The ranger-heavy force is based on stealthy commando operations, outmanuevering an enemy and inflicting damage over a long term. Essentially, all Valenar forces are special forces; they don't really have grunts. Hence the issue of "Does the pure fighter serve the needs of the team, or weigh it down?" Valenar certainly forces aren't all rangers; fighters, scouts, bards, clerics, marshalls, and even druids can all have a role to play. But you do want to consider what the specialty of the band is, and you should definitely think about multiclassing. In wartime, what missions were they given?

Regarding level, just because the average band is in the 4th-6th range doesn't mean that you can't have higher level; just as Breland has its Redcloaks and Aundair its Knight Phantoms, there certainly are elite elite Valenar.

I've got Forge of War sitting here waiting for me to finish Secrets of Sarlona :)
The relevant material is on page 81-82.
Phaseroth
08-15-07, 09:04 PM Thanks Keith! You've given me some excellent stuff to keep in mind :)
Ezram
08-19-07, 11:16 PM :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Phaseroth 08-13-07, 03:09 AM	Just for fun, I've put together an NPC Valenar war band. I figured I'd run it by you folks to see what you think. They're all Valenar elves, of course, and I've "houseruled" that Valenar elves get Martial Weapon Proficiency (Scimitar) to replace the racial MWP (Rapier) feat. The core of the war band is as follows: Dailan Jemuir: CN male elf ranger 10; archery; No animal companion — instead, I decided to give him the Distracting Attack alternate class feature from Player's Handbook II. Armed with a frost composite longbow (+2 STR). Armor is +2 darkleaf breastplate. Dailan commands the war band. Niath Jemuir: CN female elf cleric 9 (Spirits of the Past); Domains: Revered Ancestor and War; fights with "deity's" favored weapon, the Valenar double scimitar (flaming/keen). Armor is +2 darkleaf breastplate. Niath is Dailan's older sister. Aeraes Praevilo: CN male elf fighter 8; wields a Valenar double scimitar (frost/shock and wears +2 darkleaf banded mail. Thail Gantea: N male elf scout 8; Wears a +2 mithral shirt and fights with a shock composite longbow (+1 STR). Dailan, Aeraes, and Thail ride Valenar riding horses, while Niath rides a light horse. To fill out the party, Dailan and Niath both have the Leadership feat (I've even named these guys, just for the heck of it): Dailan's cohort: Carados Alanadel, CN male ranger 8 (archery), hawk animal companion Dailan's follower: Taleraed Derunadel, CG male expert 1. Taleraed takes care of all the horses. He has ranks in Craft (leatherworking), Handle Animal, Profession (animal trainer), Ride, Survival, and Use Rope. He also has the Skill Focus (Handle Animal) feat. I'll probably add a 1st-level scout or two, as well as a handful of 1st-level warriors to round out Dailan's group of followers. Niath's cohort: Sonnae Anshaer, CN male fighter 7. Sonnae serves as Niath's personal guard. He fights with a +1 scimitar and wears +1 full plate. Niath's followers: Elenwyd Mendeliir, N female elf cleric 2 (Spirits of the Past); Domains: Destruction and Protection; Feat: Spell Focus (necromancy) Obyn Jorudel: N male elf adept 1; usually prepares healing spells. Feat: Skill Focus (Heal) Ninafer Galacia: CN female adept 1; usually prepares spells useful for survival, and is mainly in charge of foraging food for the party. Feat: Skill Focus (Survival) Sound like a sensible war band?
Shady314 08-13-07, 06:57 AM	Sensible? Well it sounds like a bad ass war band. They'd be widely known and feared. Few things to consider. 1) The "typical" Valenar is a 4th level ranger. So if you're going to "fill" out the warband a warrior 1 or 2 would be a laughing stock amongst the Valenar. They'd be lvl 4 rangers. Maybe some level 3 inexperienced ones. I'd think lvl 1 and 2 rangers are the young elves that haven't yet fully passed into the ranks of the true Valenar and probably aren't yet considered true warriors/adults. 2) Taking care of the sacred horses of the Valenar is a job for their druids or the horses rider. I don't see them having a lvl 1 expert to take care of their horses. They'd handle that themselves. Not that every Valenar has a horse though, especially one of the warhorses but if someone needs to handle the horses one of the Rangers will handle that happily and much better. Valenar warbands also don't deal so much with logistics. That's what half-elves, especially Lyrandar are for. A warband would need to be self-sufficient and able to live off the land. They are first and foremost guerillas. So they aren't going to need to worry about stableing their mounts or anything. Only if they were to stop at a city for awhile and in that case their mounts would still probably be tended to by the Rangers and the stable would be ran by half-elves. 3) I'll assume the point of making the warband is for a possible PC encounter? In which case the mix of low levels with very high levels will be odd. If your PCs are at the high levels the low level NPC classed Valenar is obliterated in a single sword swipe before you come to the actual threats. I'd want to keep the Valenar on equal footing to the PCs so each one is a challenge and they can see where the Valenar get their reputation from. PS. In case you haven't read the Dragonshard http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041011a It's a great source for this. It also shows your"houserule" isn't much of one. :) Valenar replace racial longsword proficiency with scimitar.
Alex_ 08-13-07, 09:56 AM	Also, after Ranger, the most common class seen amongst Valenar would probably be Wizard and Bard. Bards are common alongside Clerics amongst their clergy. Bard brings knowledge of the past (important to the Valenar), the ability to inspire each other verbally (war cries, recounting deeds of ancestors, etc), a little bit of arcane spellcasting built upon deception and manipulation (favored tactic of the Valenar), great skill list (again, a great compliment to the Ranger list), and the highest BaB of any core arcane casting class (Valenar are warriors). I'd also imagine the Arcane Archer or Eldritch Knight prestige classes would be common amongst their kind, mixing martial and arcane spellcasting disciplines, with one of them being restricted to Elves.
Phaseroth 08-13-07, 01:40 PM	3) I'll assume the point of making the warband is for a possible PC encounter? In which case the mix of low levels with very high levels will be odd. If your PCs are at the high levels the low level NPC classed Valenar is obliterated in a single sword swipe before you come to the actual threats. I'd want to keep the Valenar on equal footing to the PCs so each one is a challenge and they can see where the Valenar get their reputation from. All of your comments are good ones. I'll answer this one by saying, "this warband is here to be negotiated with/befriended/a source of information and advice, or simply an obstacle that requires brains rather than brawn to overcome." For example, a low-level party of PCs might be intending to cross the border into Valenar, and find themselves confronted by this group. It is discovered that one of the PCs is a dragonmarked member of House Vadalis. According to Dragonmarked, Vadalis heirs are banned from entering Valenar, due to hard feelings over some stolen Valenar horses at some point in the past. Upon learning this the elves, who may have been willing to "escort" the PCs to their destination, abruptly inform them that the Vadalis member must remain behind. This is one reason I gave the primary warband characters the fancy darkleaf armor: I want the low-level PCs to be able to tell at a glance that they're completely outclassed, to discourage those players who have a, shall we say, video game mindset. It's why I also made them all neutral rather than evil — "opponent" does not equal "villain". As for the low-level elves: They're primarily non-combatants who would only fight in self-defense. If they're encountered alone (say they're tending the camp while the high-level elves are off raiding or patrolling), and the PCs attack and kill them, the PCs are going to find themselves in a heap of trouble when the main group returns and discovers the murders :D Primarily, though, since I don't actually have a campaign to use these guys in yet, I made this warband as an exercise for myself. Two main goals I hoped to accomplish: 1) learn to construct a logical party of Valenar, and 2) familiarize myself with the workings of the Leadership feat, something that hasn't come up in any of the games I've played in. PS. In case you haven't read the Dragonshard http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041011a It's a great source for this. It also shows your"houserule" isn't much of one. :) Valenar replace racial longsword proficiency with scimitar. :blush: I actually did read that Dragonshard some time back, and I had forgotten this. I think I've seen people suggesting "scimitar instead of rapier" so many times on the boards that it overwrote my memory of what Keith said. Easy enough to fix :) Alex_: All good suggestions :) I see I'll need to do some reworking.
Hellcow 08-14-07, 07:48 PM	For what it's worth, I lean towards rangers instead of fighters because Valenar tactics are based on stealth and mobility as much as pure combat. This obviously doesn't rule out a pure fighter, or a ranger/fighter - and the scout is an excellent Valenar class for this reason. But the skill set of the ranger is as important as the magic or animal companion; the point is that Valenar soldiers often have keen eyes and the ability to move unseen and live off the land. They are commandos as opposed to pure shock troops. Another point is that while what you have done is precisely on-mark for use of the Leadership feat, carting around a bunch of followers is a little awkward for a warband. Warbands are traditionally small groups of roughly the same skill level, so no one is dragging the others down. When you're dealing with what is obviously an elite force (9th-10th level characters), if they are going to seek out situations that provide a challenge for the high-level characters, the 1st-levels are going to be a liability. And as others have pointed out, the typical Valenar is 4th level; there ARE lower level Valenar (such as most PCs), but it's against tradition for them to leave Aerenal until they have reached the standards of the culture... in part because they're seen as being unable to contribute to the operations of a warband. Anyhow, obviously it's good work, and don't let any of my concerns dissuade you. And on the fighter thing, as I said there's nothing wrong with having a few pure fighters in warbands; it's just that the ranger or scout is more common because it suits their style of battle. (This is touched on most recently in Forge of War.)
Phaseroth 08-14-07, 10:59 PM	Another point is that while what you have done is precisely on-mark for use of the Leadership feat, carting around a bunch of followers is a little awkward for a warband. Warbands are traditionally small groups of roughly the same skill level, so no one is dragging the others down. When you're dealing with what is obviously an elite force (9th-10th level characters), if they are going to seek out situations that provide a challenge for the high-level characters, the 1st-levels are going to be a liability. True dat. My thinking was that even a small, mobile force like a warband will need to periodically return to a home base of some sort, if for no other reason than that if they're out raiding they're eventually going to have, erm, "liberated" more than they can easily carry with them. So they would have wagons of some sort into which they can unload their haul. They'd also need a place where they can perform maintenance on weapons and armor, i.e. the kinds of repairs that can't be easily performed in the field, so I pictured the camp including a small forge with appropriate tools. I can't picture a Valenar charging into battle with an anvil in his saddlebags :D And as others have pointed out, the typical Valenar is 4th level; there ARE lower level Valenar (such as most PCs), but it's against tradition for them to leave Aerenal until they have reached the standards of the culture... in part because they're seen as being unable to contribute to the operations of a warband. Anyhow, obviously it's good work, and don't let any of my concerns dissuade you. As it happens, I've already started reworking the warband with 4th-5th level characters (which obviously rules out Leadership). And on the fighter thing, as I said there's nothing wrong with having a few pure fighters in warbands; it's just that the ranger or scout is more common because it suits their style of battle. (This is touched on most recently in Forge of War.) Re: the fighter - One thing I've never liked in the published adventures my DM runs is that I always feel as if the PCs are fighting groups of clones. Say we take on and defeat a party of six hobgoblins. We'll loot the first five bodies and find five identical weapons, five identical suits of armor, five identical potions, and five coin pouches, each containing the same number and type of coins. The sixth hobgoblin, clearly the leader, will have masterwork versions of the same weapon and armor, a few more coins, and perhaps a minor magic item. "Treasure" like that suggests to me "standard issue", which in turns suggests mass production and a more organized military than is likely in such an encounter. So part of my goal is to make each member of the NPC party unique in some way, to keep the PCs on their toes. If they're confronted with four similarly dressed Valenar, it might be natural for them to assume they're facing four rangers (perhaps a Knowledge (history) check told them that "most Valenar are rangers") ... until they find themselves being Power Attacked by one elf while another goes skirmishing through their midst, and a third presses her attack with her double scimitar and then hits them with cause fear. Think the recent King Arthur movie with Clive Owen and Keira Knightley. Each of the knights was unique in arms & armor, in skill set, and fighting style, and though most were fighters, at least one was a ranger (Tristan?); Arthur himself was probably closest to a marshal. I've got Forge of War sitting here waiting for me to finish Secrets of Sarlona :)
Hellcow 08-14-07, 11:42 PM	Having written this, let me reiterate that all this is just my opinion, as I've got my own views of the Valenar. It's your warband and your game, so you do whatever the %^&#$ you want with it. ;) if for no other reason than that if they're out raiding they're eventually going to have, erm, "liberated" more than they can easily carry with them. Bear in mind that booty isn't really the motivating factor of the Valenar as a whole. Sure, it never sucks - you've got to pay for saddle-soap somehow - but the raiding is more about the challenge than the goods gained, and I could easily see many Valenar leaving valuable but heavy goods behind. The need for repairs is a good point, and this is the main reason you have forts in Valenar... at the same time, this is also an argument for Valenar relying on light armor and avoiding things like plate that will require an anvil to repair. If different members of the band included a fletcher, a weaponsmith and armorer who can perform light repairs, and possibly a wizard with mending, you can survive for a while without needing a permanent camp. Re: the fighter - One thing I've never liked in the published adventures my DM runs is that I always feel as if the PCs are fighting groups of clones. Oh, I hate that too. And Valenar SHOULD be individuals. If you're making characters, one key point to consider is who their patron ancestors were. That's what generally defines the skills and aspirations of a Valenar, because they are seeking to BE that ancestor. They want to BE King Arthur or Kiera Knightly. This is going to determine things like philosophy regarding the treatment of enemies, favored enemies, and so on. My point is that if you have a fighter 2/ranger 2 you've got a very different character than a fighter 4. He still gets two bonus feats to focus on pure military skill, but he still has SOME skill with Move Silently, Spot, Listen, and Hide - he's not a total drag when situations call for these. Likewise, two ranger 6s can be quite different: Ranger #1 focuses her feats and character abilities on archery; has a falcon as her animal companion; and has giants and humans as her favored enemies. Ranger #2 focuses his feats and character abilities on skill with the double scimitar, including Bladebearer of the Valenar and Power Attack. His warhorse is his animal companion, and his favored enemies are humans (dues to the Last War) and goblinoids (due to his patron's heroics in the war against the Dhakaani). He enjoys any battle, but takes greatest pleasure in fighting goblinoids and encourages the group to raid in Darguun. Throw in a bard 5/ranger (or scout) 1, a scout 6, a wizard 5/ranger 1 (who can use mage armor in lieu of actual armor) and you have a group with diverse talents, but all capable of devoting ranks to Hide, Stealth, Listen, Ride; the weakest link will be the wizard, but he can keep invisibility on hand. Multiclassing is way to give each character some unique flavor while still providing an overlapping skill set; a fighter with a few levels of scout or ranger CAN participate in a stealth mission, whereas with no levels and heavy armor he's a stick in the mud. The key issue is that all members of the group are capable of carrying out the combat missions of the band. A warband is a unit of a war clan of the Valaes Tairn. An independent band may not be in service at the moment, but it's still made up of people who have trained and served together for decades, and who will eventually rotate back into active service. It's not a random group of people who've ended up together; it's a group of people chosen for the compatability of their patron ancestors and because their skills make them very effective at a particular type of military operation. A full-on front-line battle force would be more likely to include more fighter levels, though possibly a level or two of ranger or scout so stealth is an option. The ranger-heavy force is based on stealthy commando operations, outmanuevering an enemy and inflicting damage over a long term. Essentially, all Valenar forces are special forces; they don't really have grunts. Hence the issue of "Does the pure fighter serve the needs of the team, or weigh it down?" Valenar certainly forces aren't all rangers; fighters, scouts, bards, clerics, marshalls, and even druids can all have a role to play. But you do want to consider what the specialty of the band is, and you should definitely think about multiclassing. In wartime, what missions were they given? Regarding level, just because the average band is in the 4th-6th range doesn't mean that you can't have higher level; just as Breland has its Redcloaks and Aundair its Knight Phantoms, there certainly are elite elite Valenar. I've got Forge of War sitting here waiting for me to finish Secrets of Sarlona :) The relevant material is on page 81-82.
Phaseroth 08-15-07, 09:04 PM	Thanks Keith! You've given me some excellent stuff to keep in mind :)
Ezram 08-19-07, 11:16 PM	:)