Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rechan 08-07-07, 11:41 AM	Throughout history, there are a few places that have resulted in a real interesting dynamic, one that would fit well in Eberron's level of "Shades of Gray" and its emphasis on Noir and Intrigue. That is when foreign powers kick the crap out of another country, occupy it, and begin carving up the area into specific pieces, where they rule. Which leads to a lot of friction with the locals versus the foreign powers, and each power against one another. This happened in China post-Opium wars, where the French, British and Americans had carved up sections of Shanghai and other Chinese ports to rule. Also you have this occurring in Post WWII Berlin, with the Americans, Brits and Soviets controlling Berlin, and all ready the tensions are high. I think it would be interesting to have a city that is the Eberronian equivalent of Berlin. You have the people who Live there who are now subjected to the might of several open powers who have split the city and control sectors of it. The various powers are at odds against one another, and this usually means that the citizenry are caught in the crossfire amid their power plays. Or everyone is just trying to keep their side safe. Any suggestions how to work this in?
Dragom 08-07-07, 11:52 AM	Valenar and Darguun are still littered with Cyran farmers. And There's a primary city of Aundair that's now conspicuously in Thrane... I think it's Thaliost. But I could be wrong.
naturax 08-07-07, 12:02 PM	You could say that what is now Valenar was annexed by Aerenal just before or just after The Mourning.
Rechan 08-07-07, 12:05 PM	You could say that what is now Valenar was annexed by Aerenal just before or just after The Mourning. True, but I think Aerenal would be committing suicide if they tried to Occupy Valenar. That would just be a waste of resources right there.
Dragom 08-07-07, 12:12 PM	The Valenar occupy Valenar. The common people of Valenar are the people of Cyre that have been there since before the Last War. Now lets just make a few elite valenar town guards, give them 4 levels of ranger, the two weapon fighting ability, and then we can equip them with a hammer and a sickle. Throw in a blood red cape of office and the metaphor should be blattent enough for most players to comprehend.
Arz 08-07-07, 12:47 PM	The city of Cragwar was a major fighting zone. It traded hands between Aundair, Breland, and Thrane. Also the city of ?_Shardukar_? was once an Aundairan city and is now being brutally governed by Thrane. Its on the NE corner of Aundair and north of Thrane proper.
Rechan 08-07-07, 01:04 PM	Thanks Arz, that might be worth looking into. Where is Cragswar?
naturax 08-07-07, 01:53 PM	True, but I think Aerenal would be committing suicide if they tried to Occupy Valenar. That would just be a waste of resources right there. Maybe Aerenal is running out of natural resources? Maybe the elves want to expand into Khorvaire because the time is right? Maybe the Prophecy told them to? I always hated the Valenar as a culture so in my Eberron the nation of Valendar is a colony of Aerenal which occupies the Cyrans that live there.
Amaril 08-07-07, 02:09 PM	I think Sarlona qualifies.
DBlizzard 08-07-07, 02:35 PM	I think there is less disputed territory in Eberron because the subtext of the Treaty of Thronehold is that everyone agreed on the disposition of such issues, if begrudgingly. There are those issues where emotionally the places are considered occupied. One city between Karnnath and Thrane comes to mind. Also, some places aren't part of the treaty. Maybe Graywall is considered occupied by Breland.
The_Gimp 08-07-07, 02:59 PM	I know it might not be the right place to ask for this, I'm just being curious and I don't want to start a new topic just for that. But Thronehold, is it just an island between Thrane/Karnnath or is there a city on the island? Haven't seen the infos in the ECS book? Thanks guys.
Amaril 08-07-07, 03:14 PM	I know it might not be the right place to ask for this, I'm just being curious and I don't want to start a new topic just for that. But Thronehold, is it just an island between Thrane/Karnnath or is there a city on the island? Haven't seen the infos in the ECS book? Thanks guys. You'd be right to start a seperate thread for this, which takes just as much effort as creating your post plus writing an appropriate subject heading such as What's on Thronehold?
Rechan 08-07-07, 03:28 PM	I think Sarlona qualifies. The Quori are occupying it, yes, but not in the capacity that I am looking for. The Quori are occupying Riedria just like the Machines occupied Earth in The Matrix - they do it without anyone really knowing it, which is counter to what I'm trying to achieve. I'm trying to capture the same feel of Early 20th century Hong Kong, post-WWII Berlin or Present-Day Baghdad, that feeling of strife, the city split by foreign groups, and that same feeling of stressful intrigue and tension of the citizenry towards their occupiers. While the Aundairian city that is now under Thrane's rule isn't carved up by multiple places, it would be more appropriate for my aims.
Amaril 08-07-07, 03:32 PM	The Quori are occupying it, yes, but not in the capacity that I am looking for. The Quori are occupying Riedria just like the Machines occupied reality in The Matrix - they do it without anyone really knowing it, which is counter to what I'm trying to achieve. I'm trying to capture the same feel of 19th century China, post-WWII Berlin or Present-Day Baghdad, that feeling of strife, the city split by foreign groups, and that same feeling of stressful intrigue and tension of the citizenry towards their occupiers. I said Sarlona, not Reidra. There are present day Sarlonans that very much are aware of the Quori occupation and fight against it. The continent as a whole is split rather than a single city or nation. Sarlona as a whole continent has that same feeling you are looking for. Read Secrets of Sarlona if you already haven't. Now, if you are looking at emulating post-WWI/WWII with regards to a city in Khorvaire after the Last War specifically, then that's something different. I don't think there are any such locations that exist in Khorvaire. You also have to consider that Germany has a whole was split, not just Berlin. I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of taking any border city and doing exactly that, though, especially one that borders Karrnath.
Rechan 08-07-07, 03:56 PM	I said Sarlona, not Reidra. There are present day Sarlonans that very much are aware of the Quori occupation and fight against it. The continent as a whole is split rather than a single city or nation. Sarlona as a whole continent has that same feeling you are looking for. Read Secrets of Sarlona if you already haven't. Ehh. Sarlona is so far from Khorvaire and a lot of the fun stuff of Eberron that it would pretty much be a Sarlona/Quori campaign for me to really execute that well. The Quori are also One Big Bad Guy, rather than several; the Adarians are clearly the Good Guys, and anyone involved is likely not going to get rolled over by Adar. And Sarlona is just too big. Part of the notion is a sense of claustrophobia, of the guy you're fighting being Right Down the Street and you're looking over your shoulder; you don't have to do that in Adar, where the Quori/Riedrians are going to tred somewhat carefully. I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of taking any border city and doing exactly that, though, especially one that borders Karrnath. Unfortunately, looking at the map of Khorvaire, Karrnath borders the Talenta Planes, the Mror Holds, and Thrane. Thrane and Karrnath are seperated by a fairly wide river. While Thrane makes a great example, the distinct seperation of Thrane/Karrnath's borders would prevent any real border city from Working. And like it was said before, the Treaty pretty much squashed most of the territory in dispute; why would they have Left the city split between the Thranes and Karns?
Amaril 08-07-07, 04:02 PM	Ehh. Sarlona is so far from Khorvaire and a lot of the fun stuff of Eberron that it would pretty much be a Sarlona/Quori campaign for me to really execute that well. The Quori are also One Big Bad Guy, rather than several; the Adarians are clearly the Good Guys, and anyone involved is likely not going to get rolled over by Adar. And Sarlona is just too big. Part of the notion is a sense of claustrophobia, of the guy you're fighting being Right Down the Street and you're looking over your shoulder; you don't have to do that in Adar, where the Quori/Riedrians are going to tred somewhat carefully. Unfortunately, looking at the map of Khorvaire, Karrnath borders the Talenta Planes, the Mror Holds, and Thrane. Thrane and Karrnath are seperated by a fairly wide river. While Thrane makes a great example, the distinct seperation of Thrane/Karrnath's borders would prevent any real border city from Working. And like it was said before, the Treaty pretty much squashed most of the territory in dispute; why would they have Left the city split between the Thranes and Karns? Like I said, you'd be better off taking a whole nation and splitting it with the dividing line in the middle of a city, but that would require major shake-ups. You could do it with Breland and Thrane or Aundair and the Eldeen Reaches.
Fabius Maximus 08-07-07, 04:47 PM	While it's not occupied as such, I think Throneport qualifies. The city is partinioned in sectors 'belonging' to the remaining nations, and you got a Cold War in the works between all of them. Maybe it's more like Vienna than Berlin (minus the destruction of course), but it should work.
Rechan 08-07-07, 05:06 PM	While it's not occupied as such, I think Throneport qualifies. The city is partinioned in sectors 'belonging' to the remaining nations, and you got a Cold War in the works between all of them. Throneport is way more like a United Nations than anything.
Syltorian 08-07-07, 05:33 PM	Throneport is way more like a United Nations than anything. Based on Forge of War, I'd indeed put it as quite akin to Berlin (or Vienna) of the post-war period. They may have a UN like part in the castle itself; but the city is clearly divided into Sectors belonging to each of the surviving four nations, with controls at their limits. No part is properly 'occupied', though it is the place where all nations control their little part and do come into hidden conflict. Not open, gritty oppression, though, I'll grant that. As for actually occupied places, there are many. Valenar, but the human population there is not too unhappy; they were already mistreated by Cyre, it seems, and the elves do not bother about them much. Thaliost is the best example for an occupied city, where Thrane and Aundair fight each other still, with other factions trying to stir their own fires. It also comes complete with a tyrant who believes that harsh punishment is the best way of calming the place, and it is a once prosperous city that has now become, from an essential transit-point for the Lightning Rail, what is more or less an appendix. A lot of lost business there. Darguun too occupies what was formerly Cyre, though admittedly it was the goblins' first; many humans there seem to have been simply enslaved in the uprising. But beyond that, half of Khorvaire is occupied. Passage belonged to Thrane, for example; everyone lost some territory to someone else. Tensions run high in the border regions. The larger cities might even have ghettos (like that where the Cyrans live in Sharn, and which was formerly completely walled up like a prison). Territory along the Eldeen/Aundair border might be more happy if they belonged to the other nation. The lizard tribes might feel that the Q'Barrans occupy their territory, if you don't want to focus on traditional races. New Cyre might consider itself occupied by the Brelish, while at the same time relying on them to survive and having to thank them for at least allowing them in. But yes, for the grittiest feel, go with Thaliost.
yossarius 08-07-07, 05:44 PM	Reading the entry in 5N, Thaliost in Thrane should ideally suit your needs. Thrane conquered the are in 926, the Aundairians tried unsucessfully to take it back in 927, and the commoners rebelled against the Thanish occupation in 928. In was at that time that the White Arch Bridge was destroyed, although no one really knows who is responsible. Will Thaliost continue to remain in the hands of the Thanes, will the area be reclaimed by Aundair, or maybe there will be a civil war so that the area tries to gain independance to become a new country. Check it out. It sounds exactly like what you're looking for.
taski 08-07-07, 05:58 PM	Thaliost is an Aundairan city occupied by Thrane (5N, page 150). It was taken in 926, which was pretty long ago, long enough that the Treaty of Thronehold allowed Thrane to keep it. The people living there aren't sure whether they're Thranes, Aundairans or if they should become an independent city state. In my game, Thrane and Aundair aren't the only factions present in Thaliost. Breland would love for Thrane and Aundair to be distracted by a sudden problem up north, so a few Dark Lanterns are present with the intent of causing trouble. Karrnath would like to help Thaliost become an independent city (with debts to Karrnath, of course), so a few Dark Cabinet spies/smugglers provide weapons, supplies, and intelligence to the independence movement. Jorasco appreciates the violence present in the city, but not the competition from Thrane's clerics. Orien wants White Arch Bridge rebuilt, so the East and West rail lines will finally be connected again, and Lyrandar wants to make sure that doesn't happen. Cannith wants the contract to build the bridge. Thrane is considering rebuilding the bridge and consecrating it so Karrnath's undead troops can't get in, but Thrane knights can storm Rekkenmark; Karrnath will hate that idea, if and when they find out about it. I can see a lot of potential for tensions in Throneport, too. Plenty of spying, smuggling (of items and people), double-crossing, and counter-spying. Need fake identification papers of the highest quality? Go to Throneport. A whole service industry has sprouted up there to serve the intelligence business.
Rechan 08-07-07, 06:10 PM	Thanks, Folks, for the additional info on Thaliost. That's not exactly what I want, but it seems to fit it by technicality.
eehamburg 08-08-07, 09:34 AM	I was thinking .... why not use Throneport? It is a nexus between all of the kingdoms. No one in specific claims it. Everyone has diplomats there. it has the Berlin post WWII/Hong Kong/Casablanca feel to it now. SO why not?
Rechan 08-08-07, 06:11 PM	I was thinking .... why not use Throneport? It is a nexus between all of the kingdoms. No one in specific claims it. Everyone has diplomats there. it has the Berlin post WWII/Hong Kong/Casablanca feel to it now. SO why not? It's not occupied. There's no oppression. The citizenry aren't beaten down, or emotionally segregated, or dehumanized and humiliated. That's a big part of Hong Kong - the foreign powers kicked the crap out of China, carved up their city and pretty much started discriminating against them, and the people's spirit was crushed. Berlin had constant tension - the threat of being sold to the Russians, or the various powers trying to smuggle scientists out, or the hunt for nazis. The ONLY thing that is similar is that it's compartmentalized. The place is just a glorified row of embassies.
Hellcow 08-11-07, 12:56 PM	It certainly seems to me that Thaliost is what you're looking for. As a side note, this is something I wrote about Archbishop Dariznu (the governor of Thaliost) on another thread. Take it or leave it, but it could prove useful. I'm sblocking it not because there's any big secrets, but simply because it's long. Archbishop Solgar Dariznu is an Aundairian by birth. The Dariznus were a widespread and powerful family in western Aundair, until the line was nearly extinguished during the Silver Purge. Most of the casualties fell and the claws and teeth of the 'thropes, but a few were turned and caused some of the bloodiest atrocities of that conflict. Antain Dariznu was a child saved by the templars, the only one of his family to survive an attack led by his own transformed uncle. He embraced the Flame with a terrible passion and proved to be a powerful cleric. As the Purge came to an end, Dariznu was one of the loudest voices callling Aundairians to the Flame. He was known for his utter brutality in rooting out the last remaining 'thropes; whenever his methods were questioned, he would snarl that the 'thropes no longer had true souls, and that he had seen first hand what these monsters had become. There was nothing in them to be redeemed (which was, after all, a statement made by the Keeper), and they deserved only the cleansing flame, so that nothing of them would remain. In the decades that followed, Antain's children remained fiercely dedicated to the Silver Flame. The Pure Flame movement has its greatest strength in Aundair, but the faith of the Dariznus is aggressive even among the Pure. They constantly argued that the church should be more proactive in the hunt for evil, lamenting the tens of thousands who died in Aundair before the church took action. And while they acknowledged the doctrine of redemption and the point that noble souls were needed to feed the Flame - and that defending the innocent was the core mission of the Church - they posited the existence of irredeemable evil among humanity, essentially suggesting that there were humans born with the empty souls of demons or lycanthropes. Such beings could not be redeemed, and the kindest action was to kill them. Many of the Keepers and people of Thrane found such beliefs to be deplorable and against the heart of the Faith. But Flamekeep was far from the fields of Aundair, and the Keepers couldn't force the puritans to change their ways; all they could do was warn the puritans to beware, lest they become that which they fought against. Over the decades, the Pure Flame has contributed to the negative image many people have of the Church of the Silver Flame. The puritans are seen as arrogant, close-minded, and often violent. There is validity to all of these claims. But for all of this, it is the case that the puritans dd take the fight to the enemy, both within Aundair and beyond. The puritans of Aundair have always been among the most active of the templars, battling fiends on the borders of the Demon Wastes, monsters coming from the Reaches, even venturing into Droaam. Puritan exorcists have dealt with true demons on many occasions. People may not like them, and an Aundairian puritan may use violence where a Thrane minister would try Diplomacy, but they are soldiers in a war against a threat that truly exists in the world; the problem is that they are hardened by the war, and are often willing to make sacrifices their counterparts would consider unacceptable. Likewise, they are less tolerant of other faiths than their moderate counterparts. The typical paladin of Thrane may feel that a paladin of Dol Arrah fails to act as a paladin should, but nonetheless is a virtuous soul and will find her way to the Flame after death. Many puritans believe that this is insufficient; that everyone must be brought onto the path in life as well as death, in order to truly create a paradise and bring a final end to evil. SO. During the Last War, Thrane laid claim to Thaliost, an Aundairian territory. This was an important city, and one the Thranes found hard to control. Rather than place a Thranish governor over the region, the Diet of Cardinals brought in a prominent Aundairian churchman - Solgar Dariznu. Those Aundairians who followed the Silver Flame respected Solgar, and this has helped him assert his authority. And in this place he has begun to create HIS ideal vision of a Flamic state - a realm harder than Thrane, and certainly one he would never be allowed to create in Aundair. Has Solgar burned people alive? Yes, and publicly. But he doesn't do this for personal pleasure. As Faiths of Eberron says, when someone cannot be redeemed, the sword may be the only solution - and Dariznu follows his ancestors' beliefs that these people are the soulless, demons in human flesh who have nothing to offer the Flame. As such, he prefers the flame to the sword. But these burnings are public executions of brutal war criminals and other people who are considered truly irredeemable. It is a horrible spectacle that draws a great deal of attention, and it is supposed to; it is a warning to those who still can be redeemed to find their way to the light. But it is nonetheless an act of last resort, not something done out of joy. Solgar prays for a day when he will never again have to smell the stench of burning flesh - a stench that haunts his dreams every night. Certainly he's seen as a tyrant by those Aundairians who don't follow the Flame. He's the leader of an occupying force - and one of their own, no less. But he simply seeks to maintain order, and to be a source of redemption in a chaotic and dangerous place. Why does the Church allow it? Many reasons. First, because execution is acceptable within the doctrine of the church, albeit as a last resort. Second, because they recognize it's not as frequent as described. Third, because Solgar holds tremendous influence among the puritans, and his position offers a chance to bridge the gap between the two sides - a gap that only widened during the Last War. The young Keeper has argued against it, but the Diet insists that it is the wrong time to abolish this practice - and for the moment, Jaela has conceded the point. Solgar Dariznu is a terrifying man to have as an enemy. He is utterly dedicated to his cause. He believes that the war against evil is far more important than any war between nations, and it is a war that knows no treaty. He is always evaluating everyone around him, looking for any sign of corruption, looking for ways to strike at the forces of evil and to strike first. His conviction is a powerful force, and his personal charisma is remarkable. He may be despised by many of the old inhabitants of Thaliost, but the puritans of Aundair adore him - and believe that, unlike Keeper Jaela, he has the conviction it will take to face fiends and win.
dsivis 08-11-07, 12:59 PM	Don't forget that Thaliost was Aundair's original capital pre-galifar. In fact, the region was called Thaliost before it was renamed Aundair and the capital moved to Fairhaven. So even though it's been occupied by Thrane for decades it's still a symbol of national shame to many Aundairians to see it under the thumb of those Thranes! Also, don't forget the presence of foreign agitators there as well! Breland, Karrnath and maybe some other countries have an interest in keeping that pot stirred!
Arz 08-13-07, 10:01 AM	Thanks Arz, that might be worth looking into. Where is Cragswar? It borders the northern mines of Breland along the SW border of Aundair. In FoW it is mentioned that the leaders of the city were flexible in their national loyalties and opened the gates to all armies. I took a much different tack. The leaders of the city are more interested in keeping the mines nearby operating and have suppressed two nationalist uprisings and multiple religious rebellions. Although once a Brelish city refugees from all over have strong communities in the city. Tensions are still high and many free mercenaries (nee bandits) roam the mountains stealign from prospectors. Also engineers from Orien are looking for a good route through the hills for a new line.