Post/Author/DateTime	Post
darko blades 06-25-07, 04:41 PM	Hi all. I recently got my hands on a copy of Faiths of Eberron. The section at the back has some examples of Construct Grafts (warforged components grafted onto humanoids) and i was wondering how these would effect a Changelings Change Self ability. Would the graft change with them into their new form? or would it remain unchanged as clothing does? Thanks in advance to any feedback. DB
Kid SixXx 06-25-07, 04:46 PM	Hi all. I recently got my hands on a copy of Faiths of Eberron. The section at the back has some examples of Construct Grafts (warforged components grafted onto humanoids) and i was wondering how these would effect a Changelings Change Self ability. Would the graft change with them into their new form? or would it remain unchanged as clothing does? It would probably remain unchanged, but there is probably a feat or a combination of feats that could be houseruled to remedy that.
Kinger 06-25-07, 07:27 PM	Well, a graft is effectively a magic item you can't take off. A changeling's ability doesn't affect their possessions, so a disguised changeling with a Mighty Arm is going to look like an orc... with a Mighty Arm.
TiwazTyrsfist 06-25-07, 10:50 PM	Yeah, I'd say that the graft would A> change size with your character (just as most magic rings and armor resize) B> remain obviously a construct graft, regaurdless of the change. So, you can look like a changleing with a metal arm, or an elf with a metal arm, or an orc with a metal arm, or a halfling with a metal arm. And so on. I'm thinking that unless construct grafts are EXTREMELY common in your campaign, it's gonna seriously hurt your ability to disguise yourself.
kentonblack 06-26-07, 12:23 AM	*echoes the sentiments expressed in the above posts* could cause some great RP moments. but I do beleive he be screwed if he grafted. as an aside, the character, a changeling, usually there quite stealthy. none of those grafts really resound as 'stealthy'. which graft was he getting? an possibly what class was he?
darko blades 06-29-07, 12:08 PM	as an aside, the character, a changeling, usually there quite stealthy. none of those grafts really resound as 'stealthy'. which graft was he getting? an possibly what class was he? At the start of my new campaign i'm thinking the players will awake in the mournland with warforged components grafted onto them. Are they the victims or crazed experiments? or where they saved by a benevolent grafter? or something else. I wouldn't want to destroy someones character so the graft for a changeling could be Heart of Steel (which is internal). Thanks very much for all the feedback so far.
Rekko 06-29-07, 01:47 PM	I say the graft wouldn't benefit the Changeling Shape Change ability. However, the changeling character could carry with him wands that permits him to alter the form of his Mighty Arm, either by polymorphs, transmutations or illusions.
Rechan 06-29-07, 07:18 PM	I say the graft wouldn't benefit the Changeling Shape Change ability. However, the changeling character could carry with him wands that permits him to alter the form of his Mighty Arm, either by polymorphs, transmutations or illusions. Agreed. A simple wand of Disguise Self should help (and that nice +10 from Shapechange and +10 from Disguise Self should work nicely). Also, the changeling isn't completely hosed. They can conceal the graft. Having a Mighty Arm may hamper them if they are wearing a tank top, but a long sleeve, a glove, and keeping that arm under their cloak should help. Now, if someone puts out an APB on "Dude with metal arm", the Changeling is in deeper trouble.
Rekko 06-29-07, 09:55 PM	Indeed, however, I don't think the bonuses from Shapechange and Disguise Self stack.
Edymnion 06-30-07, 01:22 PM	Indeed, however, I don't think the bonuses from Shapechange and Disguise Self stack.They do, actually. Just think of it as the changeling minor shapechange as doing the brunt of the work, and then using magic to cover up whatever little flaws the changeling couldn't work out themselves. Like maybe they haven't figured out how exactly to do a beard without it looking weird, so they change everything else, then use the disguise self item to create the beard for them. Or that the minor shapechange requires a specific amount of concious effort to use, and just like we have problems doing multiple things at once, so does the changeling. The magic lets them concentrate on important areas, and let the spell finish off the rest. But anyway, don't forget that we do have magic that can change the appearance of items easily enough. The glamoured property for armor, for example (which has since been expanded, effectively, to cover things other than armor, in the Vestment of Many Styles). If nothing else, make an augment crystal of Glamor to stick on the arm.
ArcTan 07-02-07, 09:41 PM	Indeed, however, I don't think the bonuses from Shapechange and Disguise Self stack. They shouldn't -- it's an obvious oversight, and one Rich Burlew complained about in his polymorph fix.
ArcTan 07-02-07, 09:43 PM	They do, actually. Just think of it as the changeling minor shapechange as doing the brunt of the work, and then using magic to cover up whatever little flaws the changeling couldn't work out themselves. Like maybe they haven't figured out how exactly to do a beard without it looking weird, so they change everything else, then use the disguise self item to create the beard for them. Or that the minor shapechange requires a specific amount of concious effort to use, and just like we have problems doing multiple things at once, so does the changeling. The magic lets them concentrate on important areas, and let the spell finish off the rest. Oh, come on. If you let this loophole go, you can cast polymorph, cast alter self, cast disguise self, use a hat of disguise, and use minor shapechange for a total of +50 to Disguise. It's ridiculous. Maybe make illusory shapechanging (disguise self) stack with real shapechanging (minor shapechange) but not itself. But that's a houserule.
Edymnion 07-03-07, 08:33 AM	Oh, come on. If you let this loophole go, you can cast polymorph, cast alter self, cast disguise self, use a hat of disguise, and use minor shapechange for a total of +50 to Disguise. It's ridiculous.And whats wrong with that? You've used three differant spells of varying levels and a magic item all for the express purpose of looking like somebody else. Congratulations, you look and act EXACTLY like Jaela, but you still can't just walk into the coffers of Thrane and take all the money out without somebody using magic to see if you really are her. After all, they know about changlings, so they'd know to check before anything major like that was done. Surely somebody would have a Gem of True Seeing they peep through as a standard thing before letting you enter the most restricted areas of any nation. But even so, +50 to DISGUISE? Come on, tell me that isn't absurd overkill with no actual additional gain.
TiwazTyrsfist 07-03-07, 01:09 PM	They do, actually. /snip Really? That's unusual, because basicly every magic bonus (with the notable exception of Dodge bonuses) don't stack with bonuses of the same type. Example, If you have a +4 deflection bonus to AC from one spell, and a +2 from another, you have +4, not +6. I'd really need to see an official ruling before I'd believe that two separate magic disguise bonuses stack.
ArcTan 07-03-07, 01:30 PM	And whats wrong with that? You've used three differant spells of varying levels and a magic item all for the express purpose of looking like somebody else. Congratulations, you look and act EXACTLY like Jaela, but you still can't just walk into the coffers of Thrane and take all the money out without somebody using magic to see if you really are her. After all, they know about changlings, so they'd know to check before anything major like that was done. Surely somebody would have a Gem of True Seeing they peep through as a standard thing before letting you enter the most restricted areas of any nation. But even so, +50 to DISGUISE? Come on, tell me that isn't absurd overkill with no actual additional gain. +50 to Disguise? Tell me that, useful or not, it's not an obvious oversight and bug in the rules. Look, even without throwing around +50's, tell me you don't actually think it should be the case that a low-level Wizard can cast disguise self and alter self and add +20 to Disguise. Tell me, at the very least, how the hell that's supposed to work. (What, is disguise self now limited by the Wizard's competence but alter self the one that "fills in the blanks"?)
ArcTan 07-03-07, 01:33 PM	Really? That's unusual, because basicly every magic bonus (with the notable exception of Dodge bonuses) don't stack with bonuses of the same type. Example, If you have a +4 deflection bonus to AC from one spell, and a +2 from another, you have +4, not +6. I'd really need to see an official ruling before I'd believe that two separate magic disguise bonuses stack. It's because the bonuses are untyped -- it doesn't say what kind of bonus it is, just that it's a bonus, which means technically it stacks with everything including itself. This is stupid, though. It's clearly just because they wanted the + to Disguise from magic to be a clear and simple advantage you get from *physically looking just like the target*, irrespective of things like a competence bonus ("I'm really good at Disguising myself!") or a circumstance bonus ("Boy, I'm glad that guard was feeling sorry for himself today and wasn't vigilant") or a morale bonus ("I feel really good about this disguise!"), etc. (What Edy describes is stacking a magical enhancement bonus on a competence bonus, which doesn't really make sense here, since both minor shapechange and disguise self are magical in nature and neither one has anything to do with being good at disguising yourself -- both of them just work.) It's an untyped bonus because it doesn't come from anything other than the fact that the magic lets you look exactly like the character and skip all the non-social, non-behavior-based parts of the disguise. It's clearly not intended to stack with all the other +10 to Disguise from spells that do *the same thing* -- let you look just like the character -- and letting it do so clearly doesn't make sense. They should've just made up a name for the bonus, or called it a "circumstance bonus", or something.
Kinger 07-03-07, 04:20 PM	Just a note, Circumstance modifiers stack, methinks. Tonnes of little modifiers can make a situation really, REALLY good, or really REALLY bad. :)
Edymnion 07-03-07, 11:26 PM	Really? That's unusual, because basicly every magic bonus (with the notable exception of Dodge bonuses) don't stack with bonuses of the same type.Of the same type. Look at the types involved. Disguise Self: Unnamed Bonus Minor Shapechange: Circumstance Bonus Unnamed bonuses always stack with everything (including other unnamed bonuses). Circumstance bonuses always stack with everything (including other circumstance bonuses). So, you've got two bonuses of differant types, which by definition stack. You've got one thats an unnamed bonus, which by definition stacks with everything. You've got one that is a circumstance bonus, which by definition stacks with everything. No matter how you cut it, they stack. The only real ground is if you say they are both based off of Disguise Self, and bonuses from the same source don't (usually) stack with themselves. However, seeing as how Minor Shapechange is a physical change, not an illusion, and that it grants a named bonus that is differant from the bonus granted by the spell, even that ground doesn't really hold.
hecknoshow 07-30-07, 09:59 AM	Getting back on topic, You could just "build in" a shapechange ability for the arm. It wouldn't even be that expensive (comparitively) to add. A hat of disguise only cost 1,800gp and if its benifit is only partial(the arm) it should be even less. Should still have the restrictions of the spell though, tactile sensations ect.
ArcTan 07-30-07, 05:11 PM	Of the same type. Look at the types involved. Disguise Self: Unnamed Bonus Minor Shapechange: Circumstance Bonus Unnamed bonuses always stack with everything (including other unnamed bonuses). Circumstance bonuses always stack with everything (including other circumstance bonuses). So, you've got two bonuses of differant types, which by definition stack. You've got one thats an unnamed bonus, which by definition stacks with everything. You've got one that is a circumstance bonus, which by definition stacks with everything. No matter how you cut it, they stack. By RAW, yes. By RANS (Rules As Not Stupid), no.
Esgay 07-30-07, 05:34 PM	To everyone moaning about how using 3 spells and a magic item to get +50 on disguise check is overpowered, just compare it to other spells. Fly, one spell, completely negates the need for a jump check or a climb check I think that works out at roughly a +infinityish bonus. Slightly better than 3 spells giving you a +30 on a skill that lets you look different. It's magic, It lets you do powerful things.
Edymnion 08-01-07, 08:53 PM	By RAW, yes. By RANS (Rules As Not Stupid), no.Please, tell me one way in which this is abusable to the point it would ever be a problem. Its not stupid to have things stack to absurd levels when there is no actual benefit to having that high of a check in the first place. The only stupidity involved would be on the part of a player that invested that many resources into something that would have worked just as well with half or a third as many resources invested.
ArcTan 08-02-07, 02:45 PM	Please, tell me one way in which this is abusable to the point it would ever be a problem. Its not stupid to have things stack to absurd levels when there is no actual benefit to having that high of a check in the first place. The only stupidity involved would be on the part of a player that invested that many resources into something that would have worked just as well with half or a third as many resources invested. Dude, a level 7 Changeling Wizard (access to polymorph, alter self and disguise self and one hat of disguise) could stack these to achieve a +50 to Disguise, untrained. This would allow him to fool the greatest spymaster in the city (say, a 15th-level Rogue with Alertness and Wis 16) into thinking he was said spymaster's best friend in the whole world, even if that best friend was a female Lizardfolk of venerable age *with a 9 or better a guaranteed success*. If my math is right, we have 18 ranks, +3 Wis modifier, +2 for Alertness, +10 for intimate relationship. That's a +33. The Changeling gets a +50, with a -6 for different age, sex and race. That's a +44. The Changeling has a *higher check* than the spymaster. The Changeling only has to roll 9 to beat the spymaster's 20. A 7th-level character really shouldn't be able to fool a 15th-level character, focused on Spot and Listen, about this kind of thing at all -- a regular 7th-level Rogue using no magic, only his Disguise skill, would have almost no chance of pulling this off -- but by using this one stunt (which requires being a Changeling, one 1,800 GP item and three spells) -- he has a very good chance of pulling it off *with Charisma 10 and no ranks*. That is, yes, absurd. The reason it would "never be necessary" is *only* that DMs are supposed, as a general rule, to make sure players only face level-appropriate encounters. The definition of "broken" is that it allows players to beat *non*-level-appropriate encounters, should they seek them out. It means that a player can seek out a situation that I as the DM intended to be impossible to use Disguise to get past and use Disguise to get past it. That's a problem. It's actually *more* of a problem for Disguise than it would be for a skill that tended to have fixed DCs. Disguise is supposed to be scalable by level because it's an opposed check (if someone can breeze through encounters with equal-level characters using Disguise, you just turn around and use higher-level characters with a higher Spot check). Giving someone broken Disguise bonuses breaks that system to pieces.
ArcTan 08-02-07, 02:48 PM	To everyone moaning about how using 3 spells and a magic item to get +50 on disguise check is overpowered, just compare it to other spells. Fly, one spell, completely negates the need for a jump check or a climb check I think that works out at roughly a +infinityish bonus. Slightly better than 3 spells giving you a +30 on a skill that lets you look different. It's magic, It lets you do powerful things. I'd complain about it less if there were flavor that made it make sense, as opposed to this being an obvious mistake on the part of WotC, who clearly expected everyone to think of the +10 "untyped" bonus as the general "shapeshifting" bonus you get for having shapeshifted.
hecknoshow 08-04-07, 09:34 AM	Dude, a level 7 Changeling Wizard (access to polymorph, alter self and disguise self and one hat of disguise) could stack these to achieve a +50 to Disguise, untrained. This would allow him to fool the greatest spymaster in the city (say, a 15th-level Rogue with Alertness and Wis 16) into thinking he was said spymaster's best friend in the whole world, even if that best friend was a female Lizardfolk of venerable age *with a 9 or better a guaranteed success*. Sense motive allows for a 'hunch' check to see if somthing is wrong, the DC is 20. Your spymaster could make that in his sleep. And even if a changeling wizard did this, he/she would need to pass on a bluff check or the disguise would become usless instantly. Any GM should be able to find a way around this kind of abuse with ease. so let the player use it. Hell let it work for them, they're using up the resources to make it. But at the first sign of abuse, have it fail.
ZappoHisbane 08-04-07, 08:21 PM	Dude, a level 7 Changeling Wizard (access to polymorph, alter self and disguise self and one hat of disguise) could stack these to achieve a +50 to Disguise, untrained. This would allow him to fool the greatest spymaster in the city (say, a 15th-level Rogue with Alertness and Wis 16) into thinking he was said spymaster's best friend in the whole world, even if that best friend was a female Lizardfolk of venerable age *with a 9 or better a guaranteed success*. I'll add my voice to the chorus here that says that a +50 to disguise really isn't that big of a deal. The character *looks* incredibly realistic. You can pass yourself off in a visual inspection no problem. The moment someone talks to you, touches you, or casts any kind of detect magic or true seeing your way, you're screwed. And if I'm a 15th level Rogue spymaster, damn right I've got goggles of true-sight or whatever. Skill modifiers do not exist in a vacuum.
Kid SixXx 08-06-07, 11:12 AM	This would allow him to fool the greatest spymaster in the city (say, a 15th-level Rogue with Alertness and Wis 16) into thinking he was said spymaster's best friend in the whole world, even if that best friend was a female Lizardfolk of venerable age.... ...Until the spymaster asked the female lizard folk to lay an egg, or swim, or perhaps ask the lizard imitator to recall a certain event they experienced together with clarity... I think you're giving too much credit to the percentages and not to the field of play.
ArcTan 08-06-07, 08:46 PM	I'll add my voice to the chorus here that says that a +50 to disguise really isn't that big of a deal. The character *looks* incredibly realistic. You can pass yourself off in a visual inspection no problem. The moment someone talks to you, touches you, or casts any kind of detect magic or true seeing your way, you're screwed. And if I'm a 15th level Rogue spymaster, damn right I've got goggles of true-sight or whatever. Skill modifiers do not exist in a vacuum. The +50 to Disguise counts for talking too, you know. The fact that you have to talk like the character you're impersonating is represented by the +2 synergy bonus from Bluff. Touching you only matters for the disguise self and hat of disguise elements of this setup, which are the only parts with Will (disbelief). Minor shapechange, alter self, polymorph, polymorph any object and shapechange are all transmutation magic and can't be disbelieved. The most you can say is that the large amount of magic you're radiating makes you suspicious, and that you can see through this with true seeing. Big whoop. No one's got the capacity to be *constantly* detecting magic or true seeing at every moment of every day, not even 15th-level spymasters. The essence of using disguise is keeping them from being suspicious enough to cast true seeing in the first place.
ArcTan 08-06-07, 08:48 PM	...Until the spymaster asked the female lizard folk to lay an egg, or swim, or perhaps ask the lizard imitator to recall a certain event they experienced together with clarity... I don't think anyone has the ability to just lay an egg on command, nor would they take kindly to being asked to do so. Alter self *does* give you the target form's Swim speed, so that's that obstacle gone. Asking about a memory is a fine test for any kind of disguise, but it requires that the person already be suspicious and trying to test you, which means your disguise has already failed. The +50 to Disguise is to keep the situation from coming up.