Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mysticbadger 07-29-07, 07:26 AM	I need help to make children of Winter in Sharn. what would be : - their ennemies - their practical actions - their allies - their QG - their philosophy ? Thanks In Advance !
Rerecros 07-29-07, 09:38 PM	One thing to note about the CoW, is that it is a belief system, and not an organization as such. There is no unified leader or MO. There are the Typical zealots, who would use vermin and plauges to kill the weak. But there might just be some fairly average guy that believes death is not something to be feared. Most don't take an active role in creating the winter that will clease the world, as they believe it's something destined to happen, and should happen, just like those who believe in the apocalypse. But some do believe that the winter needs a helping hand, and as the "weak" can be found in most groups, most would be their enemies, except for the even more malicious groups (the one composed of fiends and their worshippers mainly). BTW What does QG stand for?
The Dreaming Duck 07-29-07, 10:23 PM	The Children of Winter are already IN Sharn - as mentioned on page 175 of Sharn: City of Towers. It's a small presence, but given that they are druids and it's the single largest city on Khorvaire, that's hardly surprising; it's not really where you'd expect an Eldeen druid sect to establish a major following.
Rerecros 07-29-07, 10:43 PM	it's not really where you'd expect an Eldeen druid sect to establish a major following. I tend to disagree. Sharn is very metropolitian, I would be surprised if any sect couldn't find some followers there. Also, given that sharn has the highest humanoid population density anywhere, it seems the most likely target for crazy eugenic zealots. Also, I as vermin masters CoW druids would fit right in with the citie's lower levels.
The Dreaming Duck 07-29-07, 11:34 PM	Sharn is very metropolitian... Which is exactly my point. The druid sects are all about nature. The Ashbound would want to tear down the city as the greatest abomination on Khorvaire. The Greensingers would hate to be so far from the fey forests that they love. The Wardens of the Wood are, well, the Wardens of the Wood. Gatekeepers? There is a Gatekeeper in Sharn, but not a sect. In many ways the CoW might be best suited to Sharn, but remember that they are still bound to NATURE. They don't worship death, but they see it as part of the natural cycle - and they believe that civilization allows people to break that cycle, allowing the infirm to survive when they could never survive in the wild. I could see a group of CoW coming to Sharn with the express intention of spreading plague and otherwise wreaking havoc in the city (because after all, with concentrated population comes that risk)... and the CoWs mentioned in Sharn are a few who have come to the city with a specific mission. But I don't see them wanting to LIVE there. Sure, they have an affinity for vermin. But that doesn't mean they like living in sewers, which are again an extremely UNnatural environment. You can get vermin anywhere; why not stay by the Gloaming, which is after all their holy land? They are called the Eldeen sects for a reason. I can see the metropolitan people of Sharn having enough breadth of mind to see that there is some validity to the druidic philosophies. But I don't see a large group of people who have fully embraced these philosophies choosing to remain in a city - especially the biggest, filthiest city in Khorvaire. The druids mentioned in the Sharn sourcebook are all present for a reason - and none of them have wide followings. So: Ashbound or CoWs sweeping in from the Eldeen with a goal in mind (most likely one that will cause havoc)? Sure. But I don't really see a big sect opening up shop in Lower Dura. With that said, while I might not see the ELDEEN sects settling in Sharn, no one said they were the only game in town. I recall one of the Dragonshards specifically mentioning a completely unrelated sect operating in the King's Forest. I could see a druidic sect forming in Fallen that was specifically about nature adapting to urban environments. The CoW have an affinity for vermin, but the beetle can be found in the woods just as well as the city, and civilization does run counter to the CoW themes. I think the idea of a druid sect that is truly tied to the rat - and similar creatures adapted to thrive in cities - would be interesting, and certainly a good match for the urban barbarians of Fallen.
Rerecros 07-30-07, 01:21 AM	The Greensingers would hate to be so far from the fey forests that they love. Fey don't embody nature in particular, that's why Lamannia and Thelanis are two separate planes. In mythology there are plenty of fey who inhabit cities. I could see a group of CoW coming to Sharn with the express intention of spreading plague and otherwise wreaking havoc in the city (because after all, with concentrated population comes that risk)... and the CoWs mentioned in Sharn are a few who have come to the city with a specific mission. But I don't see them wanting to LIVE there. You seem to be treating your version of the CoW as an actual organization rather than a disassociated group of individuals with similar ideals. If a terrorist CoW group wanted to destroy civilization, it only makes sense to live there until it is destroyed. Also I imagine a number of city dwellers turning to the CoW belief system by their experiences in the city. In fact I would expect more civilization destroyers to come from an urban background than from some one who knows nothing about cities. Sure, they have an affinity for vermin. But that doesn't mean they like living in sewers, which are again an extremely UNnatural environment. You can get vermin anywhere; why not stay by the Gloaming, which is after all their holy land? I don't see the CoW as being bothered by an unnatural environment. Inflexability is a weakness, and if you can't adapt to your surroundings outside your homeland you don't deserve to survive at all. And why don't all catholics stay by vatican city, which is after all their holy land? They are called the Eldeen sects for a reason. I can see the metropolitan people of Sharn having enough breadth of mind to see that there is some validity to the druidic philosophies. But I don't see a large group of people who have fully embraced these philosophies choosing to remain in a city - especially the biggest, filthiest city in Khorvaire. The druids mentioned in the Sharn sourcebook are all present for a reason - and none of them have wide followings. I can see a druidic sects as having more sway in areas of wilderness, but having them completely based in the Eldeen reaches is purely your own assumption. I doubt the active terrorist CoW groups would gain many followers. But I imagine quite a few random npcs adopting a more moderate version of this belief system. With that said, while I might not see the ELDEEN sects settling in Sharn, no one said they were the only game in town. I recall one of the Dragonshards specifically mentioning a completely unrelated sect operating in the King's Forest. I could see a druidic sect forming in Fallen that was specifically about nature adapting to urban environments. The CoW have an affinity for vermin, but the beetle can be found in the woods just as well as the city, and civilization does run counter to the CoW themes. I think the idea of a druid sect that is truly tied to the rat - and similar creatures adapted to thrive in cities - would be interesting, and certainly a good match for the urban barbarians of Fallen. While this fallen group seems to specialize in urban survival, CoW seem they types to diversify for all surroundings. And these fallen seem to lack the whole eugenic aspect the CoW have. Overall I think you are being needlessly closeminded, and your post was lengthy with far too many assumptions treated as facts. You are certainly entitled to your version of Eberron, but don't say it is the only way.
Mysticbadger 07-30-07, 01:26 AM	yep, I wanted answers, not a "you can't..."'. If you don't like my idea, just don't help me... For QG, my mind slipped, it's general quarters... Thanks already for all your answers. I need some more ideas about their actions.
Rerecros 07-30-07, 01:59 AM	Just making the city a more dangerous place would be a goal of the more antagonistic CoW members. "I hold up the animal world Mr. Roberts, the beasts of the fields show no mercy, You don't die of old age on the Serengeti." ?, Black Button http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrKnhOJ-R80 Obvious actions unclude, increasing the number and agression of animals present in the city. Creating more poisons in the air and water is possible for anyone, no magic required. Creating a permanent antimagic feild around a hospital (for healing spells). More complex goals would be to politically remove social saftey nets so those not strong enough to adapt to the city die instead of leeching off society. Their goal is never to kill off everyone, just the weak and the stupid.
Rechan 07-30-07, 02:04 AM	I'll just say this. What are cities? Especially cities in the period of Eberron? That's right, they're collections of people in multiple states of life. You have the rich in posh places... and tons of poor. And what do poor people have when they live in poor conditions? DISEASE. London and the black plague, anyone? And the more people, the more garbage, the more garbage, the more vermin to eat on the garbage. So the poor in Sharn have to deal with the hardships of their environment, as well as the violence in the lowest wards in Sharn, and the fact that they may not have enough food to survive. What do the CoW like? Disease and Vermin, and weeding out the weak. I'd say if someone survived and thrived in the ghetto of Sharn, they wouldn't be that weak. More importantly, the Lady of Plague died in Sharn. So I imagine you have a cell of CoW who worship upon the fabled spot where she fell. Maybe she was swallowed up in a crack in the earth (From the earthquakes brought by Tarkanan), and thus they live in the Depths over her impromptu tomb.
Revvecor 07-30-07, 08:52 AM	So the poor in Sharn have to deal with the hardships of their environment, as well as the violence in the lowest wards in Sharn, and the fact that they may not have enough food to survive. What do the CoW like? Disease and Vermin, and weeding out the weak. I'd say if someone survived and thrived in the ghetto of Sharn, they wouldn't be that weak. I would say that this explanation is the best so far in that; the masses of poor and hungry creatures of Sharn may gravitate to the CoW in hope of gaining abilities to help them survive. The one question I would raise is that this potential gathering (even a small one) of poor people could lead to increased conflicts with the middle and upper classes that they would view as weak. I am not sure of any real threat being leveled against the city by this theoretical group. Its more of a thought to the long term relation between the classes in the main city of a country that is likely to become a Republic in the relatively near future. (French revolution anyone)
The Dreaming Duck 07-30-07, 12:11 PM	OK, a few things. First: I completely agree. As an Eberron DM, you should be able to do whatever you want, regardless of whatever is said in the books. If you want a big Children of Winter sect in Sharn, go for it. With that said, the original poster asked about the philosophy of the Children of Winter in Sharn, implying that he didn't know what it was. The philosophy and goals of the Children of Winter in Sharn are in fact established IN Sharn: City of Towers, as I noted in my first post. If the poster's question was "I don't like what's been done with the CoW in Sharn - help me do something different" or "I want to expand on S:CoT's depiction of the CoW in Sharn, help me do it", I would have posted something quite different. It's every DM's right to choose to ignore what exists: That doesn't change the fact that it does exist in the sourcebooks. With that said... You seem to be treating your version of the CoW as an actual organization rather than a disassociated group of individuals with similar ideals. You're right. From the sound of it, we have completely different ideas of the Children of Winter. I've been basing my view on the ECS, S:CoT, and PGtE. To draw a few things from the PGtE, it's noted that the sect has 1,100 members - so one issue in your Vatican comparison is that I believe there's a few more Catholics than that. The PGtE continues "The Children of Winter congregate in the Gloaming in the southern parts of the Towering Wood." Now, where I'm obviously mistaken is that it does note that since the Day of Mourning they are "moving out from the Gloaming." This is also the basis of the characters mentioned IN Sharn: City of Towers - they have been sent to search for more information about the Lady of the Plague. To me, this does imply some level of organization... and it emphasizes the recent nature of it. All of the sources I have read emphasize that the Eldeen sects share a common background and ties to the Eldeen Reaches. They also have strong ties to locations within the Eldeen. All respect the Greenheart and the Great Druid, even those opposed to the Wardens. The Greensingers have their bond with the Twilight Demesne. The Children of Winter are based around the Gloaming. In the Druid dragonshard (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20051017a), the Shadows of the Forest have nothing to do with the Eldeen sects; they are a unique sect that has historical ties to Breland, and never had any connection to the Eldeen or Oalian. So personally, if I was introducing a large druidic sect to Sharn, I'd create something entirely new - a form of nature worship that has arisen in Sharn and is tied to the history of Sharn - as opposed to importing the Eldeen. BUT, you're absolutely right. The OP didn't ask what I would do. I suppose he didn't ask what S:CoT has done. He asked about creating a CoW sect in Sharn, and it was rude of me to divert from that topic. Personally, I would suggest that the sect would be a recent development, established by Cainan, the druid mentioned in S:CoT (and stated to be the most powerful druid in Sharn) - but again that's me. Dealing with the other points: their ennemies The Church of the Silver Flame is one possibility. The purpose of the CotSF is to defend the innocent from supernatural evil - and if the CoW are planning to cause harm, that would certainly qualify. SF adepts, clerics, and paladins are also best qualified to magically counter disease - exactly the sort of unnatural action the CotSF hate. Of course, the CotSF in Sharn isn't a shining example of dedication to their purpose, but there may be noble people within the church. House Jorasco. While the house is unlikely to take aggressive action on its own, it would be a logical target for CoW attack, especially if they are planning a disease-based campaign. So they might be forced to defend themselves from unexpected attack. The Blackened Book, the magical defense arm of the Sharn Watch. They're not ideally geared to counter this sort of threat, being primarily arcane, but they are still supposed to defend the city from magical threats. The Aurum and/or the Boromar Clan. Both of these groups have strong holdings in the city. They may not be nice people, but they aren't going to want the city to be destroyed, either... and the Boromar clan wields power in the lower levels, so if trouble starts down there, they are likely to notice it before the Watch or the Church. their practical actions Recruiting new members. The lower levels are a good place for that - people lack hope, and the promise of a new spring may appeal to them. And Fallen is an excellent place to find people who have survived the collapse of civilization and may grasp the "Survival of the Fittest" idea. Seeking to eliminate forces that could threaten their future activities. House Jorasco would be an obvious first choice, because they're the force that treats healing as a service, and because their healers aren't necessarily powerful people. Finding ways to eliminate all of the Jorasco outposts in Sharn without tipping their hand would be very challenging, but it could make an interesting ongoing plot element over the course of a few games. "You go to the Jorasco enclave in Deathgate and find it's been burned down. When you go to the next one, you discover that the healers were killed by an angry mob demanding free health care..." Spellcasters of Church of the Silver Flame or priests of Olladra or Boldrei would be other logical targets; even though they don't sell their services, they would be perceived as a threat. Seeking information about the curse of the Lady of the Plague and ways to tap into her power, as others have suggested. Even without the power of the curse, there's lots of ways to turn the city against itself. Destroying the magical items that purify Sharn's water. Spreading disease, either to directly to people or indirectly through vermin. As others have said, the dense population will work against Sharn. Researching the fall of the Crystal Tower. This created Fallen, which is actually a fairly good place for the whole "survival of the fittest" thing. If that could be replicated on a larger scale - collapsing Skyway - it would certainly advance the cause. They don't HAVE to use disease. their allies One question is how hard they'd try to seek allies. They are zealots, after all. I can certainly see them trying to recruit new members, but I don't really see diplomacy as a strong suit. With that said, I can see other groups choosing to help them without the Children even knowing it. Both the Lords of Dust and the Dreaming Dark could see the CoW agenda as serving their own purposes. The rakshasa in the city probably wouldn't pop up and say "Hi! I'm a Lord of Dust! Let me lend you a hand!" - but it could use its power and influence to help, and might join the cult without revealing its true identity. If the Dreaming Dark decided to help, it could use its seeds in other groups in Sharn - such as the Blackened Book and the City Council - to prevent the city forces from responding to the threat. The Cults of the Dragon Below might share common goals, but personally I don't see the CoW allying with aberrations - though that's just me. their philosophy If you change their philosophy, it seems to me like you might as well create a new druid sect unique to Sharn. If the question is simply "What is their global philosophy" - death is part of the natural cycle of life; disease and the like are nature's way of weeding out the weak; civilization has made it too easy for those who wouldn't survive in nature to cheat the cycle of life and death; there's an apocalypse coming that's going to cleanse the world and ultimate remake it to start anew; only the strongest will survive this; the end of the world is nigh, and it's time for the CoW to help bring on the great Winter. Not all of them agree on that last point, however, and some are trying to prove that it's NOT the case. These might actually be another enemy to consider; Frost (from page 59 of the PGtE) might try to stop whatever plans they have in Sharn. In regards to how the overall philosophy applies to Sharn, it's the basic "City allows people to escaped the challenges of nature" - so bringing disease to the city, creating new areas like Fallen, and the like make sense to me. The survival of the fittest issue has already been brought up; but I'd also consider their belief in the cycle of life. Forcing people into conditions like Fallen is good, but destroying Jorasco and other things that allow people to break free from nature's cycle seem equally important to me. Again, my apologies if I seemed to be being rude and closeminded. And obviously the above statements are just a few possible ideas, nothing more. Good luck with your game.
Rechan 07-30-07, 12:31 PM	A few other thoughts that come to mind: Food. A city of 200,000 people is going to need a lot of food. So The CoW could begin starving the city. Selective use of Summon Swarm and weather spells might mess with food production. Attacking supply lines and caravans. Killing cattle. Now, when the food starts to go short, who's going to have it? The rich. They have the money to horde the stuff or ship something from afar. If you are going the "Revolt" route, this is when they start whipping the lower classes into a frenzy over those "Skyway bigwigs who can afford pork while we starve!" This will also force the lower classes to really sink or swim. Scavenge for food or die. Something that animals in winter have to deal with - so too should the Humans have to deal with it in preparation for Winter. Garbage. 200,000 people are going to produce a lot of sewage and even more trash. There are things in the sewers that help with this (oozes and aberrations in particular). The CoW could clog trash chutes and divert sewage piping, so that the level of garbage starts to build up and spill out into the streets. Not only will this encourage disease, but it will draw vermin out into the open. They may even "herd" the garbage eating monsters to the surface. An ooze would be a serious threat to a low level watch patrol, much less Joe Schmo Sharn. This may also require infiltration into the guild that handles the trash and sewage. A plumber dieing from a giant spider bite or being eaten by rats in the sewer every so often isn't going to raise suspicions, and they do it with enough frequency and there may not be enough workers in the Waste Disposal Guild to handle things when they really start to put the pressure on Sharn.
The Dreaming Duck 07-30-07, 12:42 PM	The CoW could clog trash chutes and divert sewage piping, so that the level of garbage starts to build up and spill out into the streets. Not only will this encourage disease, but it will draw vermin out into the open. Agreed. I can't remember exactly where it is, but I know I've seen something about Sharn using a big purify water system (I don't remember if it's a wondrous location, a minor artifact, or what) in the sewers, which would certainly be a target. But anything to wipe out the sewage system would have a huge impact.