Post/Author/DateTime	Post
yossarius 07-26-07, 02:17 PM	I am attempting to make a climate map of the continent, which will eventually show climate labels for each area (temperate forest, sub-tropical desert, etc.) The first thing I'm trying to do is to understand Khorvaire's weather as a complete system. As I understand it, there are two major areas where, due to magical effects, the weather can be expected to be abnormal: the Demon Wastes, and the Mournland. (By that I don't mean every 10 square mile area that might have some kind of permanent weather effect. I wouldn't really consider Stormhome, for example, large enough to be relevent to this topic.) Are there any other large areas of Khorvaire where magic effects the weather that I'm not thinking of? Next, I was wondering if anyone could offer any opinion as to whether or not an area of magically-controlled weather alters the weather around it? I'm leaning towards one not having an effect on the other. As an example, the area around Stormhome is a mild 70 degrees or so year round. I am supposing that once you reach a certain distance from the island, the temperature abruptly changes to whatever the time of year dictates. Any thoughts? Finally, after looking over my map of the continent, I am going with the theory that the prevailing winds blow from east to west, rather than the reverse that is true in earth's northern hemisphere. Why? The Eldeen Reaches. If the prevailing winds blow from the west, how does the Eldeen Reaches get enough rain to support all those trees? On the west the region is blocked almost completely by the Shadowcrag and Byeshk Mountain ranges. I just can't see moist air coming from anywhere else than from over Lake Galifar. If anyone can intelligently disagree with any of the assumptions I've made here, I'm all ears. This is a huge undertaking, and I can use all the help I can get.
okaynowa 07-26-07, 02:46 PM	There's another point in favor of east-to-west winds in Eberron's northern hemisphere: Q'barra is an east coast jungle with its back to the Worldsend Mountains, and there's a big desert and arid plains on the other side of that. I'd have to check, but which side do the jungles tend to fall on in the southern hemisphere?
Sir Elton 07-27-07, 08:36 AM	Why is it that everyone in Wizards wants the Sun to rise in the west on their Campaign Settings? Isn't Dragonlance enough?
okaynowa 07-27-07, 08:42 AM	Maybe the Ring of Siberys has some weird effect on the direction of equatorial winds, which spills over into the other latitudes.
yossarius 07-27-07, 09:54 AM	Maybe the Ring of Siberys has some weird effect on the direction of equatorial winds, which spills over into the other latitudes. Not to mention tidal effects from 12+1 moons (just because the 13th moon is broken doesn't mean it doesn't have gravity). I suspect that a planet like Eberron, in RL, would be unlikely to have Earth-like weather, but I figure it's probably easier to just ignore that and move on.
Sir Elton 07-27-07, 10:21 AM	I figure that there is one actual moon and the other "moons" are actually gates to Eberron's outer planes.
okaynowa 07-27-07, 10:24 AM	It is fun to speculate, though, that when viewed from space, Lyrandar's Stormhome stands out like the Great Red Spot on Jupiter. After a couple hundred years, that unmoving storm cell has got to have some sort of side effect. Other fun thing to consider: in Eberron, it's the northern pole that has a continent, and the southern pole that's just frozen ocean. How does that affect things?
OctaviusIII 07-27-07, 10:32 AM	The Ring is probably more difficult on account of its shadow. I read an article long ago about a ring Earth once had after the creation of the Moon. Apparently, it casts a shadow right around the equator, cooling the planet considerably. Although that's not quite what happens in Eberron on account of the partially translucent nature of the Ring's material, it's still probably something of an issue.
yossarius 07-27-07, 11:00 AM	Well, my ultimate assumption is that Eberron has Earth-like weather, and I just need to figure out why it's Earth-like, when Eberron isn't very Earth-like as a planet. Perhaps Eberron has a brighter sun, and the ring's cooling effect is what makes it livable. Other fun thing to consider: in Eberron, it's the northern pole that has a continent, and the southern pole that's just frozen ocean. How does that affect things? It does? Naturally I'm aware of the Frostfell, but the Ocean south of Xen'drik is a frozen ice-sheet? I must have missed this.
okaynowa 07-27-07, 11:06 AM	I believe it's covered in the Players Guide to Eberron. The Frostfell is shown having at least one mountain range, while the southern region is known as "Everice" (no map) and, as I recall, described as just frozen ocean.
Alex_ 07-28-07, 03:31 AM	Well, my ultimate assumption is that Eberron has Earth-like weather, and I just need to figure out why it's Earth-like, when Eberron isn't very Earth-like as a planet. Perhaps Eberron has a brighter sun, and the ring's cooling effect is what makes it livable. The equator is still warmer than the rest of the planet, even though the ring would block the sun's ray from the equator, so the rest of the planet should be considerably warmer. It would also affect the amount of other forms of radiation that reaches the surface of the planet, with all those implications. Then there's the fact that Eberron has gravity comparable to Earth's while being a fraction of the size, and more porous, what with all the tunnels and caverns that make up Khyber. Does a planet with an earth-like gravitational field even have the strength to hold 13 other satellites which all seem to represent a noticeable percentage of its mass? How would this affect the behavior of organisms that depend on the orientation of the moon for navigation like moths. Speaking of Khyber, one could only imagine the geological implications of something like Khyber a pan global cave network- would have on planetary drift, continental plates, fault lines and earth quakes. What about the effects on the magnetic field? Is Eberron's magnetic north true north in regards to latitude/longitude, if not, how much does it vary, in which direction, and how does this influence navigation? Then there's Eberron's seasons, which suggests an axial tilt, but in which direction? You would think it'd be with the southern pole facing closer to the sun, but the massive frozen lands in southern Xen'drik and the continent immediately south suggest that it's aimed at the north, even though that seems more temperate than it should be.
OctaviusIII 07-28-07, 04:23 PM	I think that the Eberronian system wasn't meant to be scientifically disected, but I think we can make some workarounds: As for the gravity: Eberron isn't more porous; just the crust is. If the planet is indeed a fraction the size of Earth, there may be more to the world, either trackless ocean or another continent, or it has an extremely metal-rich mantle and core. Any one of those things can be used to normalize gravity. As for the rings: let's say Siberys shards are transparent to infrared radiation and partially transparent to visible light, meaning even if there is a shadow, enough heat and light reaches the surface to make the planet's climate normal. As for the moons: If they're gravitationally weak, either because they're small or light, they wouldn't have too severe an effect on tides. If necessary, we could always use plausible exotic materials or construction for the moons.
OctaviusIII 07-28-07, 04:32 PM	How would this [moonlight] affect the behavior of organisms that depend on the orientation of the moon for navigation like moths. Moths would have evolved to orient themselves some other way. What about the effects [of Khyber] on the magnetic field? Is Eberron's magnetic north true north in regards to latitude/longitude, if not, how much does it vary, in which direction, and how does this influence navigation? Let's say none and sure, it's near True North. Then there's Eberron's seasons, which suggests an axial tilt, but in which direction? Axil tilt is not about whether north or south points towards the sun. Summer happens when that hemisphere is pointing towards the sun and winter happens when it's pointing away. How much, then? Same as Earth. Anyway, unless necessary, Eberron should function like Earth. Come to think of it, winds blow East-to-West on Earth, too. Think of the Andes and which side the Amazon is on, or the Rockies and which side the Great Basin is on. The upper atmosphere, like the jet stream, goes west-to-east, but the lower atmosphere seems to go opposite.
Alex_ 07-29-07, 12:42 AM	I think that the Eberronian system wasn't meant to be scientifically disected, but I think we can make some workarounds: As for the gravity: Eberron isn't more porous; just the crust is. If the planet is indeed a fraction the size of Earth, there may be more to the world, either trackless ocean or another continent, or it has an extremely metal-rich mantle and core. Any one of those things can be used to normalize gravity. As for the rings: let's say Siberys shards are transparent to infrared radiation and partially transparent to visible light, meaning even if there is a shadow, enough heat and light reaches the surface to make the planet's climate normal. As for the moons: If they're gravitationally weak, either because they're small or light, they wouldn't have too severe an effect on tides. If necessary, we could always use plausible exotic materials or construction for the moons. Moths would have evolved to orient themselves some other way. Let's say none and sure, it's near True North. I agree that the Eberronian system (or most any Fantasy system) wasn't intended to be scientifically dissected. I just wanted to see someone mention that fact considering all the attempts such far. You did, however, go on to try and explain how thing would work, and most of your explanations carry with them their own implications (which I'll avoid as I've not much stomach for another length discussion/debate so soon). It's a very dangerous thing to. Axil tilt is not about whether north or south points towards the sun. Summer happens when that hemisphere is pointing towards the sun and winter happens when it's pointing away. How much, then? Same as Earth. Axial tilt is about whether the north or south is pointed towards the sun In the case of Earth, the southern pole is closer to the sun than the north. This is what leads to seasons. Planets with less axial tilt have far less noticeable seasons. If a planet has no axial tilt, it has no recognizable seasons and maintains the same general weather patterns throughout the year. The relative position of the eastern/western hemisphere to the sun determines day/night cycle, not the seasons.
Nerdicus 07-29-07, 12:07 PM	I just wanted to pipe in here and say that any magical control over the weather in one area should have some affects on other areas. In my games on Eberron I have it where Droaam is affected by the weather control techniques used in Aundair( I think it was aundair that used magic to control the weather for farming purposes) and will be sending a deligation out to Aundair to try and get them to stop using said methods of weather control. Of course the Aundair royality will laugh at the monstrous deligation which will result in Droaam marching two by two to war.... I digress. We're talking about weather, and i say, if someone is tampering with climate control in one area, it will effect other areas. I chose Droaam as the area to be affected because a) it is a blasted land with little usable land for farming, and becuase it's peoples are not really considered to be all that important to the other nations of Khorvaire.
OctaviusIII 07-29-07, 03:50 PM	I just wanted to see someone mention that fact considering all the attempts such far. You did, however, go on to try and explain how thing would work, and most of your explanations carry with them their own implications. It's a very dangerous thing to. Yeah... I figured that if someone was going to be discecting the system scientifically that I should pipe up with workarounds. Each does carry its own implications, and ultimately the best we can say is "Magic?" and focus on how landforms, rather than astronomy, effect the climate. Axial tilt is about whether the north or south is pointed towards the sun In the case of Earth, the southern pole is closer to the sun than the north. This is what leads to seasons. Planets with less axial tilt have far less noticeable seasons. If a planet has no axial tilt, it has no recognizable seasons and maintains the same general weather patterns throughout the year. The relative position of the eastern/western hemisphere to the sun determines day/night cycle, not the seasons. Axial tilt is how much tilt the planet has off of its ecliptic (the day/night divide). It doesn't have to do with which hemisphere, north or south, is closer to the sun, which is what makes the season. Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_tilt) has a good illustration and explanation. I think what you're thinking of is which hemisphere is pointed towards the sun when the planet is closest to the sun in its orbit. In Earth's case, it's the southern hemisphere, although that has little effect on the season (http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=361859). Whoo, tangents!
yossarius 07-30-07, 08:31 PM	I don't deny that all these things would have a noticeable effect on the planets weather, but I'm not planning on writing a doctoral thesis on Eberron's weather, either. Which is certainly for the best; I make absolutely no claims to be an expect on meteorology. No doubt some of the claims I will make on the final product (the climate map) could easily be refuted by anyone with a passing grade in Meteorology 101 (or whatever that class would be called). Which is why I've asked for help, of course. So anyway, for no specific reason, I'm starting with the Shadow Marches. I don't have my notes with me right now, but I will update later this evening as to the assumptions I'm making as to the area's weather.
Alex_ 07-30-07, 09:13 PM	Axial tilt is how much tilt the planet has off of its ecliptic (the day/night divide). It doesn't have to do with which hemisphere, north or south, is closer to the sun, which is what makes the season. Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_tilt) has a good illustration and explanation. Look at the picture in the link you posted. Rotating like that, the Southern hemisphere is indeed tilted towards and more exposed/closer to the Sun more so than the Northern Hemisphere. It wobbles some in a relative sense, but the Southern Hemisphere remains on average closer. It goes on further to say... "The hemisphere (half part of earth) tilted away from the Sun will gradually become tilted towards the Sun, and vice versa. This effect is the main cause of the seasons (see effect of sun angle on climate)." It's talking about the Southern and Northern Hemispheres, not the Eastern and Western ones. I think what you're thinking of is which hemisphere is pointed towards the sun when the planet is closest to the sun in its orbit. In Earth's case, it's the southern hemisphere, although that has little effect on the season (http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=361859). How close the planet is to the sun does not determine seasons. It says so in the link your provided there. "The seasons have nothing to do with how far the Earth is from the Sun. If this were the case, it would be hotter in the northern hemisphere during January as opposed to July. Instead, the seasons are caused by the Earth being tilted on its axis by 23.5 degrees. Here's how it works." Right there it also makes it clear that the planet/hemisphere's distance from the sun is not what controls seasons. For further evidence, look at Mercury with its 0.01 axial tilt, resulting in virtually no readily discernible seasons. Mars has an axial tilt of over 25 degrees and has more noticeable seasons like Earth. Jupiter has a tilt of only 3 degrees or so, and as such, has minor seasonal variations.
OctaviusIII 07-31-07, 12:10 AM	You and I apparently are in agreement.
yossarius 07-31-07, 10:58 AM	Looking at the map of Khorvaire (I'm going off the web enhancement poster map), would anyone care to suggest whether it is a flat or curved projection? I'm trying to plot latitude lines. Should they be arcs or straight lines? Also, what latitude would you put Sharn, for example? I was thinking about 25° N, which would make it at the same latitude as Key West. Likewise, I was thinking of making Stormhome at 60° N, making it close to Anchorage, Alaska. Any thoughts regarding this?
RFrenchJr 07-31-07, 01:24 PM	A few minor points I'd like to share. John Four recently discussed creating Climate Maps for your campaign in his latest GM Tips e-zine. If you're not already a subscriber I'd encourage you to check it out at http://www.roleplayingtips.com A point he brought up was that in the end, it needs to be about fun. You can research axis tilts, gravitational pulls, trade winds, mass, core composition, etc etc etc, but me, I'd rather just say Aundair is warm, jungles are hot, frostfell is cold and spend that time making a more stellar game. Maybe one of your players is a Meteorology or Geography major and they'll laugh at your map. So what? In the end the purpose is making a great game and if that means putting a glaciar right next to a desert, well then by god do it. In my Eberron campaign the PCs took a boat trip up to Stormhome. Basically they hitched a ride on a crab fishing boat and were in the midst of some awful weather, pelting freezing rain and high winds when they suddenly "passed through an invisible barrier" where the wind died down, the rain stopped and the waves calmed all the way until they docked in Stormhome. Just to clarify, I'm not saying it's not awesome to think about all those intricate details I mentioned earlier and hats off to all of you guys who obviously have given it way more thought, research and time than I have. If that's you I'm glad there are people like you because I'd rather not try to wrap my head around those things just for something as simple as "what kind of weather do you expect across Khorvaire?" For me, I'd just as likely make up a d10 table with ten different weather conditions and roll randomly, that's me.
yossarius 07-31-07, 01:24 PM	Looking at the map of Khorvaire (I'm going off the web enhancement poster map), would anyone care to suggest whether it is a flat or curved projection? I'm trying to plot latitude lines. Should they be arcs or straight lines? Also, what latitude would you put Sharn, for example? I was thinking about 25° N, which would make it at the same latitude as Key West. Likewise, I was thinking of making Stormhome at 60° N, making it close to Anchorage, Alaska. Any thoughts regarding this? Comparing the poster map to the world map on pg 5 of the Explorer's Handbook, I'm guessing that both maps are flat projections, which makes adding lat & long lines MUCH easier. Of course, that makes the maps by definition inaccurate, although they are still accurate enough for our purposes.
yossarius 07-31-07, 01:45 PM	A few minor points I'd like to share. John Four recently discussed creating Climate Maps for your campaign in his latest GM Tips e-zine. If you're not already a subscriber I'd encourage you to check it out at http://www.roleplayingtips.com A point he brought up was that in the end, it needs to be about fun. You can research axis tilts, gravitational pulls, trade winds, mass, core composition, etc etc etc, but me, I'd rather just say Aundair is warm, jungles are hot, frostfell is cold and spend that time making a more stellar game. Maybe one of your players is a Meteorology or Geography major and they'll laugh at your map. So what? In the end the purpose is making a great game and if that means putting a glaciar right next to a desert, well then by god do it. In my Eberron campaign the PCs took a boat trip up to Stormhome. Basically they hitched a ride on a crab fishing boat and were in the midst of some awful weather, pelting freezing rain and high winds when they suddenly "passed through an invisible barrier" where the wind died down, the rain stopped and the waves calmed all the way until they docked in Stormhome. Just to clarify, I'm not saying it's not awesome to think about all those intricate details I mentioned earlier and hats off to all of you guys who obviously have given it way more thought, research and time than I have. If that's you I'm glad there are people like you because I'd rather not try to wrap my head around those things just for something as simple as "what kind of weather do you expect across Khorvaire?" For me, I'd just as likely make up a d10 table with ten different weather conditions and roll randomly, that's me. No, you're right. This is supposed to be a game. It's supposed to be about having fun, not endless hours of what is essentially homework. But I'm not involved in a game right now, and don't expect to be for a while, but I still want something to do. This gives me the opportunity to not just do something constructive, but to contribute to other people's games as well. Likewise, it's my intention to ignore some of the extreme nuts & bolts of how weather really works (axis tilts, gravitational pulls, and so on). I just don't see them as necessary to what I am trying to do here. My final result doesn't need to stand up to the rigors of science; it just needs to be concise, easy to understand, and stand up to casual critique. That's what I'm hoping to accomplish.
OctaviusIII 07-31-07, 11:30 PM	I think you're right about on the money with regards to lattitude - it's a flat projection, so it should be relatively easy to figure those out. I wonder where they set longitude... I don't think the top and bottom of the map are at 90 degrees - I'd say they're around 70 or so, which might skew your estimations. If you have them, look into the map in Secrets of Xen'drik and the one of Frostfell in Adventurer's Handbook and see how those line up.
yossarius 08-01-07, 03:43 PM	Well, I'm pretty sure Sharn's latitude should be somewhere between 20° and 25° N, which puts it somewhere between Mexico City and Miami. I'm not sure about the Northern edge of the map, though. For example, during how much of the year should the mouth of Scion Sound be choked with ice? One month? Three? Not at all (perhaps due to violent currents preventing the water from actually freezing during winter months)? If the straight doesn't freeze, where does it? Starkcrag Rock? (Seems unlikely, if there have been three attempts to build a trading post / colony at Desolate. Why so much interest to build something in a frozen wasteland?) So, maybe Stormhome is a little further south than I first estimated. Perhaps 55° N instead of 60°, which puts it about where Alaska meets Canada on N America's west coast. Not exactly a warm climate, but not as cold as previously thought. It's not too hard to imagine that the sea around the island is so storm-blasted because warm and cold fronts regularly meet in the area, rather than due simply an extreme northern latitude. So, unless someone can present a good reason otherwise, I think I'm going to set the poster map's latitudes thusly: Sharn is at 22° N, and Stormhome is at 56° N.
Kaodi 08-02-07, 10:08 PM	Fernian and Risian coterminous phases need to be taken into account, but I think manifest zones, especially Sarlonana chaotic manifest zones, would be hell on the weather.
bykov1 08-03-07, 09:23 AM	The equator is still warmer than the rest of the planet, even though the ring would block the sun's ray from the equator, so the rest of the planet should be considerably warmer. It would also affect the amount of other forms of radiation that reaches the surface of the planet, with all those implications. If there is any axial tilt to the planet, the rings shadow would be cast in a range of area depending on the time of year. Then there's the fact that Eberron has gravity comparable to Earth's while being a fraction of the size, and more porous, what with all the tunnels and caverns that make up Khyber. Does a planet with an earth-like gravitational field even have the strength to hold 13 other satellites which all seem to represent a noticeable percentage of its mass? How would this affect the behavior of organisms that depend on the orientation of the moon for navigation like moths. I'm sorry, where is it said that Eberron is more porous? As for being a fraction of the size, I would have to disagree, in fact, based on estimates from the map and scale, Eberron would be slightly larger than Earth. So based on the inside cover of the ECS I would say that would imply that there is something 'more' on the other side of the planet, even if it is just a trackless sea. Speaking of Khyber, one could only imagine the geological implications of something like Khyber a pan global cave network- would have on planetary drift, continental plates, fault lines and earth quakes. What about the effects on the magnetic field? Is Eberron's magnetic north true north in regards to latitude/longitude, if not, how much does it vary, in which direction, and how does this influence navigation?. This cave network would be contained in the crust. The better question would be, what effect does continental drift, et al, have on the cave network. Just because it is pan-global does not mean that the crust is riddled with passages. Then there's Eberron's seasons, which suggests an axial tilt, but in which direction? You would think it'd be with the southern pole facing closer to the sun, but the massive frozen lands in southern Xen'drik and the continent immediately south suggest that it's aimed at the north, even though that seems more temperate than it should be. I would say there is an implied minor tilt. There is a very large band of tropical/subtropical and fairly large polar regions. Bykov.
bykov1 08-03-07, 09:27 AM	It is fun to speculate, though, that when viewed from space, Lyrandar's Stormhome stands out like the Great Red Spot on Jupiter. After a couple hundred years, that unmoving storm cell has got to have some sort of side effect. One would think. I like the red spot analogy. Other fun thing to consider: in Eberron, it's the northern pole that has a continent, and the southern pole that's just frozen ocean. How does that affect things? Should affect much, maybe some weather pattern differences, but the whole planetary orientation is different from earth. So overall....not much. Bykov.
bykov1 08-03-07, 09:34 AM	Come to think of it, winds blow East-to-West on Earth, too. Think of the Andes and which side the Amazon is on, or the Rockies and which side the Great Basin is on. The upper atmosphere, like the jet stream, goes west-to-east, but the lower atmosphere seems to go opposite. Yes the wind patterns are reversed on the southern hemisphere. Eberron's wind patterns appear to be the reverse of Earth, which would imply a retrograde rotation to the planet. Always love watching the sun rise over the western mountains. Breathtaking,.....really. Bykov.
bykov1 08-03-07, 09:45 AM	For further evidence, look at Mercury with its 0.01 axial tilt, resulting in virtually no readily discernible seasons. Damn hot? Bykov.
yossarius 08-03-07, 12:51 PM	Does anyone know if there is a master list of terrain types (tropical jungle, temperate forest, sub-arctic plains, etc)? I just want to make sure that the terms I use match what WotC uses in monster description and such. Edit: I went to the SRD to answer my own question. Here are the terrain types I intend to use: Forest/Jungle Sparce Medium Dense Marsh/Swamp Deep Shallow Hills Gradual Deep Mountains Gradual Steep Desert Tundra Rocky Desert Sandy Desert Plains Farmland Grassland As well as five climate bands: Arctic Sub-Arctic Temperate Sub-tropical Tropical Is there anything I'm missing?
OctaviusIII 08-04-07, 02:18 PM	Does anyone know if there is a master list of terrain types (tropical jungle, temperate forest, sub-arctic plains, etc)? Terrain types? Looks fairly complete. The Köppen climate classification (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%B6ppen_climate_classification) model is probably the most complete I've seen, so you could peruse that. But terrain is different than climate. As for building cities ridiculously north: perhaps they want diamonds?
ZappoHisbane 08-05-07, 03:22 PM	Terrain types? Looks fairly complete. The Köppen climate classification (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%B6ppen_climate_classification) model is probably the most complete I've seen, so you could peruse that. But terrain is different than climate. As for building cities ridiculously north: perhaps they want diamonds? Or any other natural resource. Lumber, gold, silver, etc. Where is Desolate (supposed to be) located again? I don't have Five Nations handy at the moment.