Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AvonRekaes 03-23-07, 04:28 AM	I recently managed to (finally) pick up the Dragonshard RTS game, and got to the part where the Order gets the ability to use Deathless troops, but they're shamanistic dwarves, not Undying elves. Is there any more info about this culture? I think there was a Ring of Storms adventure arc in Dungeon a while back, right? Did it detail these dwarves any?
Cambian00 03-23-07, 01:12 PM	Oh good heavens I hope not... Deathless Dwarves?? Thats even more perverse than Deathless Elves... May the DIVINE RITEOUS MIGHT of the SILVER FLAME cleanse the world of all such abominations!!!!!!!!!! hehe
Cambian00 03-23-07, 01:13 PM	((btw: check the signature))
Bluebrush 03-23-07, 03:23 PM	KB has alluded to a group of deathless dwarves residing in the Demon Wastes. Though aside from Dragonshard, there's not much about them. Simply put: Just because the Aerenal are the best at using deathless magic doesn't mean they're the only ones who can use it, or even that they're the best.
Darth Syntax 03-23-07, 03:34 PM	My immediate response to the idea of non Aerenai Deathless is confusion. This is followed by disbelief, and finally by total and complete rejection. The Deathless really should be (in my opinion) an Aerenai only thing. They are likely to be the only people on the planet to have knowledge of how to create deathless and they guard it closely.
goblin_pride 03-23-07, 03:54 PM	The Deathless really should be (in my opinion) an Aerenai only thing. They are likely to be the only people on the planet to have knowledge of how to create deathless and they guard it closely. I agree completely. It's the defining characteristic of the Aereni, their culture is based on it, it relies on a manifest zone that seems to exist only on Aerenal and it changes quite a bit of the setting if the ability to create the deathless makes the jump to Khorvaire, even more so if it jumps across racial lines. If the Dwarves have deathless, why isn't the Blood of Vol simply learning* the techniques from them? *learning can take many forms, from a student/teacher relationships to outright theft of the spells in scroll form to kidnapping practitioners. The problem really falls in putting the creation of deathless in a place easily reachable by the adherents of Vol's little cult.
Darth Syntax 03-23-07, 04:11 PM	Indeed, that is the question isn't it? In related news, I find it suggestive that the major forms of immortality (undeath, undying) both seem to have originated in elven traditions. Hmm . . .:plotting:
Korhal IV 03-23-07, 04:26 PM	Okay, let me clarify for you all, as someone who has played the Dragonshard RTS quite a bit. It is not Eberron. Plain and simple, that's it. It's got virtually nothing that matches up with the ECS. It's probably best to imagine it as an accident of parallel evolution - some other game company accidentally came up with and used the terms "Silver Flame" "warforged" "Syberis" and "deathless". It is not to be used as a source for Eberron material any more than Dragonriders of Pern is to be used as a source for Forgotten Realms, despite the fact that they both have dragons in them.
The White Sorcerer 03-23-07, 04:40 PM	The Deathless really should be (in my opinion) an Aerenai only thing. That's about as ridicilous as saying that all aberrations should originate from Xoriat. It is not Eberron. Care to explain?
Darth Syntax 03-23-07, 04:55 PM	What I mean is that th Aerenai effectively invented the whole deathless process and its not information they share with outsiders. It allows the Undying to maintain both their power and their mystery if they are inexplicable to outsiders. It's a bit like elemental binding. It has a single origin and the only reason outsiders have any idea how to do it is the Zil stole the secret. Even then, the Zil are not going around telling people how to bind elementals as that would damage their monopoly on the process. It remains in comparatively few hands. If someone were to steal the secrets of the creation of the Deathless form Aerenal they would incur the wrath of the Court and probably hunted down mercilessly. The creation of the deathless is a sacred practice to the Aerenai and they would take a dim view of people who create Deathless on a whim.
AvonRekaes 03-23-07, 06:36 PM	I would argue that Aerenal invented the process of Undying but not deathlessness as a whole. There could very well be other cultures that have thier own deathless traditions. The mention of deathless dwarves in the Demon Wastes (I thought I remembered hearing something about that) seems to support this. After playing a bit of Dragonshard I have to disagree with Korhal a bit. Sure some inconsistencies are there (a Horned Devil is mentioned as coming from Baator, a huuuge no-no) but for the most part it seems to fit pretty well. Taking place is an insanely remote region of Xen'Drik, there's not much for it to contradict. Also, it introduces the Umbragen who are certainly a part of the setting.
Kemmotar_veon 03-23-07, 06:56 PM	I completed Dragon shard recently... and I'm still trying to find the main board of Atari to kill them and then revive them to kill them again... it was horrible... I almost cried with the "Deathless Dwarves" also since when the Umbragen does work with the Aberrations that are trying to conquer them???... that game is a big mistake... it looks nice if it where not eberron... but even in Xen D'rik it is completly of of place...
Bluebrush 03-23-07, 07:04 PM	Well, there are other contraditions as well, as well as a few things that are probably more like pet peeves (Unoriginal and somewhat dull unit acknowledgements, another female protagonist in skimpy clothing, goblins in Xen'drik for no apparent reason) but I still don't regard it as part of my personal canon. Mostly because it'd be more fun to run a game where the PCs go after the heart themselves.
Hellcow 03-23-07, 07:56 PM	I would argue that Aerenal invented the process of Undying but not deathlessness as a whole. There could very well be other cultures that have thier own deathless traditions. The mention of deathless dwarves in the Demon Wastes (I thought I remembered hearing something about that) seems to support this. Essentially the key. There are cultures that practice necromancy that never encountered the elves. Khalesh, the Ghaash'kala, and the Church of the Silver Flame all have similar traditions - yet these traditions aren't identical. The creation of deathless requires powerful manifest zones bound to Irian, and population dedicated to supporting their ancestors through ongoing devotion. The Aereni discovered the techniques to create deathless because they found an area with such power, and they already had a culture predisposed to such devotion. I do feel that it would be possible to encounter another culture that had incorporated the deathless into its structure. However, there's no reason to assume that the traditions of that culture would directly resemble those of Aerenal. Furthermore, I believe that the strength of the manifest zones and the size of the adoring population directly relates to the number of deathless the culture can support (which is one reason the Aereni don't make EVERYONE deathless - they know they are operating with limited resources). As such, a small tribe sitting on a small manifest zone might be able to preserve a handful of elders as deathless - but you wouldn't see another force on the level of the Undying Court.
Hellcow 03-23-07, 07:59 PM	Since when the Umbragen does work with the Aberrations that are trying to conquer them???... I worked on the first draft of the Dragonshard story, but things were changed after I worked on it, and the Umbragen suffer worst of all. Originally, I'd scripted out an entire Umbragen campaign arc, which directly addressed their war with the forces of the Dragon Below and the fact that they were engaged in their own struggle for survival; if the game had done well, I'd hope to see an expansion with a daelkyr army as a fourth force. Sadly, the Umbragen story got cut and they were recast as simpler villains, as opposed to the original "shades of gray" story.
Cambian00 03-23-07, 08:33 PM	I restate my original objection.... I will destroy all Deathless, Undieing, Undead, and anything esle not alive with my Hightened/Empowered Magic Missiles of Silver Flame.... HA!! Take That!!
Darth Syntax 03-23-07, 10:05 PM	Essentially the key. There are cultures that practice necromancy that never encountered the elves. Khalesh, the Ghaash'kala, and the Church of the Silver Flame all have similar traditions - yet these traditions aren't identical. The creation of deathless requires powerful manifest zones bound to Irian, and population dedicated to supporting their ancestors through ongoing devotion. The Aereni discovered the techniques to create deathless because they found an area with such power, and they already had a culture predisposed to such devotion. I do feel that it would be possible to encounter another culture that had incorporated the deathless into its structure. However, there's no reason to assume that the traditions of that culture would directly resemble those of Aerenal. Furthermore, I believe that the strength of the manifest zones and the size of the adoring population directly relates to the number of deathless the culture can support (which is one reason the Aereni don't make EVERYONE deathless - they know they are operating with limited resources). As such, a small tribe sitting on a small manifest zone might be able to preserve a handful of elders as deathless - but you wouldn't see another force on the level of the Undying Court. These are all excellent points, especially the bit about the Manifest Zone. I can't say I had considered the effects of the Iraian Manifest zone on the potential upper limit of the Undying, but that is an intriguing notion. My own current explanation for why the Aerenai limit the number of Undying is that there are dangers in the unwise creation of immortals. A person whose mind is not exceptionally strong, or one of weak will, is a poor choice for immortality because they cannot cope with the strain of so many extra years of life. Even the best possible candidates for immortality must lead a disciplined and regimented existence (full of ritual and repeated action) so as not to succumb to the stress of living well beyond the years that a mortal mind is generally alloted. This is one of the reason the Court and the Aerenai in general disdain the more conventional forms of undead; they are prone to insane behavior and they make a mockery of the gift of immortality. It also goes a long way toward explaining why so many sentient undead seem to suffer from delusions of grandeur and megalomania. Ritual and repetition provide the Undying with the necessary structure and discipline to maintain their sanity and thus guide the Aerenai culture. This helps to explain why Aerenai culture is so ritualized and effectively stagnant; is a kind of social preservative. When I think of the Aerenai I cannot help but think of the House of Groan in Gormenghast, ritual upon ritual to the point of near-obsession. In addition to ritual providing comfort and stability to the Undying the ritualistic nature of Aerenai culture may actually strengthen the manifest zone, or at the very least strengthen the magic that sustains the undying. -- As to the topic of sacred necromancy, I can see it happening elsewhere of course, but I agree with Hellcow that the creation of deathless requires the existence of an Irian Manifest Zone, not to mention knowledge of the proper rituals and practices to create such beings. I doubt that there are many places that have all the necessary ingredients other than Aerenal.
AvonRekaes 03-23-07, 10:37 PM	I'd like to hear more about people's ideas for other cultures, rather than just say they don't exist. Does anyone have cool ideas for the dwarves from the Demon Wastes? Also, Keith, did I read that right that there might be a Silver Flame deathless tradition? (Perhaps not necessarily from the Church, but maybe from a Shulassakar fortress located in an Irian manifest zone?)
Hellcow 03-23-07, 11:20 PM	My own current explanation for why the Aerenai limit the number of Undying is that there are dangers in the unwise creation of immortals. Oh, I completely agree with all of this. The limited resources is a reason why they HAVE to limit it; even if this wasn't a factor, they still WOULD limit it. All of the issues you raise also tie to the fact that the Aereni rarely take someone under three hundred (to the extent of raising young prodigies) - you must spend a certain length of time among the living before you can be deemed both strong enough to bear immortality and worthy of the gift. When I think of the Aerenai I cannot help but think of the House of Groan in Gormenghast, ritual upon ritual to the point of near-obsession. Good analogy.
Hellcow 03-23-07, 11:28 PM	Also, Keith, did I read that right that there might be a Silver Flame deathless tradition? (Perhaps not necessarily from the Church, but maybe from a Shulassakar fortress located in an Irian manifest zone?) Certainly not from the modern church. I don't personally remember suggesting anything like this, but I can't rule it out; Khalesh may have had living saints sustained by the power of the Flame itself. However, with that said, a critical point: I'd expect such creatures to be completely different from the Undying elves of Aerenal. Deathless is a creature type - creatures sustained after death by positive energy. But undead is a creature type, and it covers zombies, wraiths, liches, and all sorts of varying creatures. If a Silver Flame-sustained deathless creature existed, I'd expect it to be completely different from an Ascendent Councilor; it might be a spirit formed of pure silver flame, for example. At the end of the day, it's up to you. Aerenal is the focus of the deathless in Eberron, and I don't think there are any plans to introduce new deathless in official material any time in the immediate future. But if you want to introduce new deathless in your campaign, do what works for the story.
AvonRekaes 03-23-07, 11:40 PM	I'm actually trying to "fill out" the Deathless type with more creatures. I completely agree that they should be different in appearance. I'm currently trying to make a bunch of deathless that can be summoned with spells similar to Summon Undead I through V. As for the suggestion about the Silver Flame deathless, I just realized that I misinterpreted what you said about the Church of the Silver Flame having a "similar culture". I thought you said that the Church was similar to deathless-sustaining cultures. However, flame-powered Deathless is such a great idea (For me, as I am trying to make the deathless type more diverse). If you're interested, I made a deathless yesterday and posted it to the monster board here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=814511). I got around having to think about what culture they came from by saying the society that sustains them is gone and they're just weak vestiges of what's left, soon to fade away entirely.
Esgay 03-25-07, 04:33 PM	Personally I diseregarded dragonshards as an Eberron product when i noticed the lore entry for pit fiends said that they came from the nine hells of baator, someone was obviously slacking when it came to writing up the monster information and did a bit of a copy and paste job from the monster maual. The deathless dwarves and the rampant abundance of creation forges spewing out titans also ruined it slightly for me setting-wise. It's a shame as it could have been a decent game with a little more depth and research
Daydreamer 03-27-07, 11:04 PM	The process for making ascendant counsillors is lost though? When was the last time a new one of those showed up.
AvonRekaes 03-28-07, 12:02 AM	It's not lost, you just can't make one. Supposedly an Undying Councilor becomes an Ascendant Councilor after several millenia.
The White Sorcerer 03-28-07, 06:26 AM	The process for making ascendant counsillors is lost though? You don't just make an ascendant councilor. You become one by living... I mean, um, undying? for a really long time and being good at it.
Kid SixXx 03-28-07, 07:20 AM	I recently managed to (finally) pick up the Dragonshard RTS game, and got to the part where the Order gets the ability to use Deathless troops, but they're shamanistic dwarves, not Undying elves. I'd sort of hoped that Eberron wouldn't go the FR route and assume that anything with the Eberron logo automatically belonged in the game. Fallout from the insistance of FR board members that the events of Baldurs Gate be considered actual canon is arguably one of the things that drove me away from the FR setting. Lots of crazy things happen in the Dragonshard RTS that I wouldn't really think of putting into my game.... perhaps with the exception of the really hot paladin with the improbable armor, Lady Marryn Dallana. That being said, ultimately the process of creating Deathless pretty much requires the elements Keith mentioned, so I agree with Avon. I don't see why Dwarves couldn't come up with their own way to create their own Deathless elders. Neither the manifest zone to Irian nor the population devoted to support Deathless ancesters necessarily need to be elements unique to the Aereni. I probably wouldn't use the concept in my campaign arguably because of the Helm's Deep mentality I have about Dwarves in general (ie. dead Dwarves from long ago belong in giant crypts & serve Dwarven society best as legends or folk heroes, not as undead / deathless creatures) & because I also have made it a fairly defining culture footnote in Aereni society. I personally fill the need for more "deathless" type creatures by improving the lot of Deathless elves (ie. the loss of class levels due to creature type sort of bothers me) and not by spreading the Deathless type across more races.
Hellcow 03-28-07, 11:30 AM	It's not lost, you just can't make one. Supposedly an Undying Councilor becomes an Ascendant Councilor after several millenia. Precisely.
Daydreamer 04-01-07, 09:05 PM	Ah yes, i recall that now.
BrotherDog 04-06-07, 01:39 AM	Odd. Has Darth Syntax even read what the Undying Court is populated with? The elves obviously reward those they consider worthy, even non-elves(2 awakened baboons[maybe even possibly Hadozee, as they weren't yet update to 3e] are members). Why not dwarves? Heck, why not Medusae or Gnolls, even?:D Provided they earned it, in the eyes of the Aerenai.
Darth Syntax 04-06-07, 02:59 AM	I don't think the Aerenai (who are a very insular people, literally and figurativly) would go around "rewarding" foreigners, no matter how "deserving" they might be. As to the undying mandrills, the animals are considered to be sacred by the Aerenai, and they are native to the island and to the culture so it is not surprising that several of them have been elevated to the court. Outsiders would be disruptive to their society, they would bring strange traditions, alien practices, and they would be the begining of the end of Aerenai tradition.
goblin_pride 04-06-07, 07:11 AM	I agree with Darth Syntax. If you start passing out undying as a reward to everyone that's been even remotely helpful to the Aereni, the undying lose the flavor that they have as being the core of the Aereni culture. Additionally, there's not room enough in the undying for all the elves. What great service would you have to accomplish to take the place that an elf that's lived almost a millenia didn't deserve? It's not as though all elves become undying, it's a select few in a generation if not one or two in a dozen generations that descends the steps of Shae Mordai to take a place in the council.
The Dreaming Duck 04-06-07, 10:10 AM	Odd. Has Darth Syntax even read what the Undying Court is populated with? The elves obviously reward those they consider worthy, even non-elves(2 awakened baboons are members). Huh? Where is this stated? (I trust it's not just based on a picture, since the fact that we see a baboon in an artist's envisioning of the court doesn't tell us that the baboon is either awakened or undying). To quote a few things I've read... "The undying who have journeyed beyond life and death to reach the final destination of the elven soul." "...They revere the ascendant union as the ultimate embodiment of the elven race." "...It is the clerics who judge the achievements of an elven life..." "The elves believe that it is devotion of the family that preserves the spirits of the undying. As a result, an elf is expected to be deeply familiar with the lives of his undying ancestors..." So, in the core book, it's stated time and again that this is by elves, for elves. In particular, the deathless are sustained by the devotion of their descendents... if you elevate a medusa, are you also bringing her family to Aerenal to pray for her? Moving on to the PGTE... "However, when the court assembles - bringing together the greatest minds in elven history - it is one of the mightiest forces in Eberron." "As a result, the elves are very cautious about their island and its resources. Therefore, only the greatest heroes of the land are chosen to become deathless. The Aereni keep a close eye on the population of their homeland, because they know it can only support so many elves - living or deathless." "The elves reserve the gift of immortality for their greatest heroes..." "Traditionally, an elf can only become deathless after he has lived three centuries..." "The Priests of Transition hold a great responsibility. They believe that Aerenal can only support a certain number of Undying Councilors..." So here, it's emphasized that the elves can only create a limited number of deathless and they're very picky about it; that you need to live 300 years to be considered ("Madness? This! Is! AERENAL!"); and that it's reserved for the "greatest heroes of the land." That's the core book and the PGtE. Where's this awakened baboon thing from? I'll bet a :cookie: it's not a book Keith Baker had anything to do with - it sounds like a designer who looked at that picture on page 219 of the ECS and thought it would be fun to create a deathless baboon without actually considering if this logically fit into what had been said about Aerenal. With that said, if there's no way around it, I agree with Darth Syntax's assessment. It's been suggested in the past that the Aereni consider the baboon/mandrills of the island to be holy creatures, and that it was a golden baboon that led the elves to the Irian manifest zone that is now the sight of Shae Mordai. Thus, if there is a baboon member of the court, I suspect it's got a story like this - that it plays a key role in the faith, not that it's "Hey, this is the most adorable baboon ever! Let's make it deathless, an honor we reserve for our greatest minds, the end result of the journey of the elven soul, and furthermore denying a future space on the court to an elven soul, because hey - great baboon!" Beyond that, going back to the ECS - the core Eberron book - the deathless are sustained by the devotion of their descendents. Is there a family of awakened baboons praying for the deathless one?
ArcTan 04-10-07, 11:32 PM	As to the topic of sacred necromancy, I can see it happening elsewhere of course, but I agree with Hellcow that the creation of deathless requires the existence of an Irian Manifest Zone, not to mention knowledge of the proper rituals and practices to create such beings. I doubt that there are many places that have all the necessary ingredients other than Aerenal. Dude, Hellcow's post was about how it *is* possible for there to be deathless in places other than Aerenal. Aerenal doesn't have a monopoly on Irian manifest zones, just on the really big ones. And they *don't* have to be the exact same rituals that Aerenal uses to produce the Undying. Undying are *one specific kind of deathless*. Deathlessness is as big a category as undeath. Only Karrnath has the "rituals and practices" to create Karrnathi undead, but that doesn't mean undead only exist in Karrnath. The general processes of creating undead probably vary widely across cultures, to say nothing of *natural* undead that occur spontaneously (wights that really are corpses of vile murderers too ornery to die, ghosts that arise from unfinished business on earth). There's nothing to say that while only the Aereni have the secrets of creating Undying Councilors and Undying Soldiers -- the equivalent, perhaps, of liches and vampires -- that there aren't deathless equivalents of ghouls, wights and ghosts that appear spontaneously or that are much easier to create. Again, just because Aerenal has a tradition for creating deathless doesn't mean it's the only one that works, any more than their tradition for destroying undead and exorcizing haunting presences means the Church of the Silver Flame can't have its own such tradition, or any more than the fact that the Qalbarin have the world's oldest tradition of undeath doesn't mean there can't be necromancers of various kinds everywhere.
ArcTan 04-10-07, 11:40 PM	I'd like to hear more about people's ideas for other cultures, rather than just say they don't exist. Does anyone have cool ideas for the dwarves from the Demon Wastes? Salvage the crunch and basic fluff from the Dwarven Ancestor monster from MM4, while throwing out the silly and un-Eberron specific flavor they give for it -- that dwarven spirits can be summoned from the afterlife by paying money to Kol Korran. Instead, say that the Dwarven Ancestor spirits are bound to their stone bodies by a process of deathlessness, completely different from the Aereni Undying in that only the vaguest bits of sentience and will can be retained, but still essentially deathless in nature. (Change them from Native Outsiders to Deathless in type, and the crunch is still valid.) The Dwarves of the Mror Holds might distrust the Warforged specifically because they see it as an amoral perversion of their holy process of binding ancestor spirits (suspecting that the Warforged are powered by souls unlawfully stripped of alignment and will entirely by the heartless Creation Forges of House Cannith) while the Aereni might consider Dwarf Ancestors to be themselves a perversion -- spirits called for their power to blindly serve an ideal the dwarves thougthlessly embrace, rather than kept for their wisdom and leadership.
goblin_pride 04-10-07, 11:56 PM	Instead, say that the Dwarven Ancestor spirits are bound to their stone bodies by a process of deathlessness, completely different from the Aereni Undying in that only the vaguest bits of sentience and will can be retained, but still essentially deathless in nature. (Change them from Native Outsiders to Deathless in type, and the crunch is still valid.) That would make them constructs, not undead or undying. Much in the same way you've said that elementals are required in the construction of Golems, dwarven ancestors would be used to power the Dwarven Ancestor. Undead or undying would suggest that some part of the original material body remains for the spirit of the undying or undead to occupy, not a body constructed to house the spirit of that ancestor. Congratulations, you've created a walking phylactery.
ArcTan 04-14-07, 02:52 AM	That would make them constructs, not undead or undying. Much in the same way you've said that elementals are required in the construction of Golems, dwarven ancestors would be used to power the Dwarven Ancestor. Undead or undying would suggest that some part of the original material body remains for the spirit of the undying or undead to occupy, not a body constructed to house the spirit of that ancestor. Congratulations, you've created a walking phylactery. ...What are you on about? Dwarf Ancestors are Native Outsiders, although they are frequently "mistaken for Constructs". Making them the actual spirits of dwarven ancestors preserved through deathlessness would make them into Deathless. They're not Constructs, though. Examples of Undead that do *not* retain any portion of their physical body but are still Undead include Allips, Ghosts, Wraiths, Shadows, etc., so I don't know where you're getting this "Undead have to retain their physical bodies" thing from. Constructs are Constructs because they're bodies built for a particular purpose whose functions are programmed into their bodies by their creators -- notably, whatever elemental spirit powers an Iron Golem has been torn away from its original form and stripped of its will. (Earth Elementals have Int 3, while the Golems they power have Int --.) An Elemental that is bound to something in its normal, Elemental form, as in Eberron, retains its original Type. So does a Demon that possesses an object with Fiend of Possession.
ArcTan 04-14-07, 05:55 PM	By the way: I agree completely. It's the defining characteristic of the Aereni, their culture is based on it, it relies on a manifest zone that seems to exist only on Aerenal and it changes quite a bit of the setting if the ability to create the deathless makes the jump to Khorvaire, even more so if it jumps across racial lines. If the Dwarves have deathless, why isn't the Blood of Vol simply learning* the techniques from them? If the Blood of Vol faith found Deathlessness to be an acceptable solution to the problems of mortality, then their Qalbarin forebears in House Vol would've just remained with the Aereni and continued to revere the Undying Court, instead of staging their little rebellion, fighting a huge war over it and getting exterminated. The Blood doesn't even think of Undeath as a good solution to the problem of mortality, but at least Undeath is something achievable through the power of the individual will (which is what the Blood theoretically reveres). Deathlessness is *worse* than Undeath, because it's based on losing your own individuality to that of the society whose worship and adoration sustains you, and it *requires* the existence of tons of mortals who remain mortal and whose mortal life gives you the positive energy necessary to remain Deathless. It creates a society where transcending life and death means transcending yourself, and where such transcendence of life and death for the few requires the cycle of life and death to continue for the many. In other words, it's anathema to everything the BoV believes. If a primitive Deathless-revering Dwarf culture exists in the Demon Wastes (probably linked to the Ghash'kaala traditions and their endless vigil against the fiends of Khyber), the Blood of Vol would probably hold it in the same contempt as they hold all positive-energy-using traditional religions that accept the cycle of life and death -- they wouldn't want to "learn" their traditions any more than they want to learn from the Aereni their forebears rejected and fled from so long ago, any more than they want to learn how the Church of the Silver Flame preserves souls to live within the Flame.
ArcTan 04-14-07, 06:07 PM	I probably wouldn't use the concept in my campaign arguably because of the Helm's Deep mentality I have about Dwarves in general (ie. dead Dwarves from long ago belong in giant crypts & serve Dwarven society best as legends or folk heroes, not as undead / deathless creatures) & because I also have made it a fairly defining culture footnote in Aereni society. Er, Helm's Deep is a fortress of Humans (the Riders of Rohan, specifically). The only Dwarf at the Battle of Helm's Deep was Gimli. You're thinking of Moria, probably (if you're going from the films). In the books, though, Gimli does come back and set up a settlement of Dwarves in the Glittering Caves under Helm's Deep. It's a shame that they cut that scene entirely from the films, since it's one of the better moments of character development for Gimli and Legolas -- a moment when Gimli is the one to pause during a dangerous time to appreciate beauty and Legolas misses it. Anyway, going by this flavor, I think making the Dwarf Ancestor a Dwarven Deathless works a lot. Dwarf Ancestors would only rouse themselves to fight in the direst of circumstances, would be incapable of communicating or providing leadership, and would be like vague, shadowy spirits of the past suddenly coming to life to save and inspire their descendants. They would literally make a statue honoring a great hero only to have it suddenly *become* that hero in time of need. I like it -- I think the *idea* of the Dwarf Ancestor was a great idea, even if I really dislike how MM4 handled flavoring it for Eberron.
The Ubbergeek 04-18-07, 04:06 PM	I'd sort of hoped that Eberron wouldn't go the FR route and assume that anything with the Eberron logo automatically belonged in the game. Fallout from the insistance of FR board members that the events of Baldurs Gate be considered actual canon is arguably one of the things that drove me away from the FR setting. Not everything not in game is canon in FR, amigo. Games are usualy NOT canon - because things change with each players, among other reasons. And novels are not always canon. And Baldur's gate was a good game, at least - and also, it had no big canon deviations, as far i know. Again, the stereotypes of FR appears. :mad:
elondir 05-11-07, 09:27 AM	I'm getting ready to DM Dragon Mountain, and there are Dwarven Undead, who are lawful neutral undead tomb guardians. Deathless might work better for them. BTW, deathless was introduced in the Book of Exalted Deeds, so it's not campaign specific.
Burningspear 05-30-07, 10:53 PM	I actually have a character concept i first used in a Ravenloft campaign (but the character died to soon), that revolves around a very powerful Huecuva evil priest doing a mindswap on a powerful hero (insert character of the player). The Huecuva's original body-owner manages to get his mind into a living body and escape into the known world, while the character is stuck in its abominative undead body. Be that as it may, because the characters soul is not evil as the original owner is, he is not classed as an undead, but as a deathless (this only works if the char. is good aligned). His mind is not undead, so he is not immune to mind and charm effecting spells and ab.. The original evil priest does retain the -6 to intelligence and the -3 to his base levels, as this is part of the curse the god in question put on the personality (mind), not necessarily the body. Because the Huecuva normally has -3 lvls and dam red 15/ silver, we reduced both (in accordance with my DM) to: +1 lvl adj, no -3 on lvl and only dam red. 5/ silver. :smirk: