Demon Wastes - threats too avoidable? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Demon Wastes - threats too avoidable? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
mastergarrow
05-14-07, 12:24 PM Kind of new to Eberron, and I'm turning my attention to the Demon Wastes for a few adventures later in the campaign. A few things I don't get about how difficult it seems at first blush to get into the Wastes, but how easy it really is when you read the entry.

I mean, why go through the caverns of the labyrinth and face the paladin orcs when you can go to that port town at the eastern coast, or simply hop along the surface "table" of the labyrinth, thus apparently avoiding the chasms that would otherwise make it so difficult to get in. For that matter, yes, it says quite clearly that the demons manage to get out of the Wastes, but with those other options available, it kind of seems that the paladin orcs are COMPLETELY useless at keeping out intruders or keeping in even a low level fiend? I understand that once IN the Demon Wastes, the PCs would have problems, but with such a cool story about the paladin orcs. . . .

Anyway, do any of you have another interpretation of the situation? How have you handled getting into or out of the Demon Wastes? Any suggestions on making the labyrinth the "best" or "only" option for PCs to invade the Wastes?
DarkWarriorKarg
05-14-07, 01:24 PM It's not hard to get into the Wastes.

It's getting back out that's the problem. It's a honeypot for evil. The Big Nasties have to stay there, but the minions make it out. Much like Khyber.
Melvin the Mediocre
05-14-07, 03:38 PM I mean, why go through the caverns of the labyrinth and face the paladin orcs when you can go to that port town at the eastern coast, or simply hop along the surface "table" of the labyrinth, thus apparently avoiding the chasms that would otherwise make it so difficult to get in.

There is no telling what sort of visions and messages are sent to the orcs by their guiding light. They are apt to show up anywhere, forewarned about the foolish adventures blithely attempting to cross the boundries of the Demon Wastes.
Syltorian
05-14-07, 08:29 PM I asked something akin to this a while ago, in a thread that is now archived but can be found here (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-639611). It is quite long, so you'll have to search a bit to find it...

Anyway, here is what might be relevant (all answers by Hellcow, aka Keith Baker - thanks again, Hellcow!).

1. Are there any Carrion tribe raiders or fiends that try to bypass the Labyrinth by way of…
While it is not expressly stated, both the Shadowcrags and Icehorn Mountains are extremely hostile, far more so than the Ironroot, Seawall, or Byeshk Mountains. Trying to take an army directly across either mountain range would be slow, and even a force with Survival would likely suffer casualties. Common myth holds that the mountains and the Labyrinth are not natural formations, and were raised by either dragon or demon (depending on the tale) over the course of the conflict, thus accounting for the bizarre bottleneck and the unusually hostile nature of the mountains.

Sea travel is possible, as Tharashk has shown, but the waters are dangerous; fiendish sea creatures can be found along the coast. The tribes don't have a strong culture of sea travel, nor a lot of resources with which to build a fleet of sturdy ships… and while high level magic might provide options, high level casters aren't that common. Furthermore, a key factor here is that the typical Demon Waste barbarian simply isn't that motivated to make such a long, complicated, and dangerous journey. Most of the tribes feel that they are in their holy land, and furthermore, the feuds between tribes mean they spend more time fighting one another than assembling huge armies to attack Aundair.

With that said… Were a charismatic leader (whether mortal, tiefling, or one of the Lords of Dust) to assemble a great horde, certainly, they could try to hit one of the edges. Likewise, a small tribe could specialize in edge runs, if it's driven to do so by its demon lords. So sure, you could certainly use any of these paths as a special story. But as a standard, the Labyrinth is easiest path… if you take the Ghaash'kala out of the equation. The Icehorns and Shadowcrags defend themselves. The Labyrinth needs its ghost guardians.

If the tribes do not raid beyond these borders and instead try and occasionally force their way through the Labyrinth, could you (time permitting) tell us why?
Again, a key thing to bear in mind is that the Carrion Tribes know next to nothing about what lies beyond the Labyrinth. They aren't specifically trying to get at Aundair or the Reaches, because they don't know what they are. If they travel south, it is either out of a simple desire for blood and battle – in which case orc blood will do just as well as human – or because they have been charged with a divine mission by their demon idols. In the latter case, they may be more careful, and in my opinion there are a few small tribes that do specialize in making these crossings (I believe this was mentioned in the Lords of Dust article in Dragon).

What would the Ghaash'kala do? They are limited by their numbers and their own lack of high level casters. They do the best they can, but they can't monitor the entire range. If they did learn of a truly massive horde gathering, the priests would turn to Kalok Shash for guidance, using commune to ask for advice; this in turn could result in a messenger being sent south in such of the heroes spoken of in a cryptic prophecy from the Flame. Adventure, anyone?
OctaviusIII
05-16-07, 04:59 PM Don't forget that there are about 150,000 demons in the Wastes, and a good deal of them probably have flight. Another thing: orcs do have to eat, and, if they've settled down anywhere, they'll have farms on the mesas (it's possible - just look up the Hopi). The Labyrinth is worse for those that go on foot, but if you're flying or jumping over the mesas, don't worry: someone's bound to catch you.
MetaEidolon
05-16-07, 07:56 PM Don't forget that there are about 150,000 demons in the Wastes, and a good deal of them probably have flight.

See this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=823608) For more thoughts on the population of the Wastes. I don't think that a "good deal" would have flight, personally I feel that most of the non-fiendish template demons would be rashaksa, and they don't fly.
Darakhoranon
05-21-07, 03:28 PM I don't think that a "good deal" would have flight, personally I feel that most of the non-fiendish template demons would be rashaksa, and they don't fly.

Oh, but I can imagine seeing flying rakshasas - at least after they have been "launched" by a catapult (or an angry demon lord...) that is...

Seriously, though, the Labyrinth is the ONLY way for mid-level characters/demons/whatevers to get into or out of the Demon Wastes.
Sure, you COULD force your way through forbidding mountains or schools of fiendish dolphins (Flipper from Hell...). But in that case you´d better be very high-level and very well equipped...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mastergarrow 05-14-07, 12:24 PM	Kind of new to Eberron, and I'm turning my attention to the Demon Wastes for a few adventures later in the campaign. A few things I don't get about how difficult it seems at first blush to get into the Wastes, but how easy it really is when you read the entry. I mean, why go through the caverns of the labyrinth and face the paladin orcs when you can go to that port town at the eastern coast, or simply hop along the surface "table" of the labyrinth, thus apparently avoiding the chasms that would otherwise make it so difficult to get in. For that matter, yes, it says quite clearly that the demons manage to get out of the Wastes, but with those other options available, it kind of seems that the paladin orcs are COMPLETELY useless at keeping out intruders or keeping in even a low level fiend? I understand that once IN the Demon Wastes, the PCs would have problems, but with such a cool story about the paladin orcs. . . . Anyway, do any of you have another interpretation of the situation? How have you handled getting into or out of the Demon Wastes? Any suggestions on making the labyrinth the "best" or "only" option for PCs to invade the Wastes?
DarkWarriorKarg 05-14-07, 01:24 PM	It's not hard to get into the Wastes. It's getting back out that's the problem. It's a honeypot for evil. The Big Nasties have to stay there, but the minions make it out. Much like Khyber.
Melvin the Mediocre 05-14-07, 03:38 PM	I mean, why go through the caverns of the labyrinth and face the paladin orcs when you can go to that port town at the eastern coast, or simply hop along the surface "table" of the labyrinth, thus apparently avoiding the chasms that would otherwise make it so difficult to get in. There is no telling what sort of visions and messages are sent to the orcs by their guiding light. They are apt to show up anywhere, forewarned about the foolish adventures blithely attempting to cross the boundries of the Demon Wastes.
Syltorian 05-14-07, 08:29 PM	I asked something akin to this a while ago, in a thread that is now archived but can be found here (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-639611). It is quite long, so you'll have to search a bit to find it... Anyway, here is what might be relevant (all answers by Hellcow, aka Keith Baker - thanks again, Hellcow!). 1. Are there any Carrion tribe raiders or fiends that try to bypass the Labyrinth by way of… While it is not expressly stated, both the Shadowcrags and Icehorn Mountains are extremely hostile, far more so than the Ironroot, Seawall, or Byeshk Mountains. Trying to take an army directly across either mountain range would be slow, and even a force with Survival would likely suffer casualties. Common myth holds that the mountains and the Labyrinth are not natural formations, and were raised by either dragon or demon (depending on the tale) over the course of the conflict, thus accounting for the bizarre bottleneck and the unusually hostile nature of the mountains. Sea travel is possible, as Tharashk has shown, but the waters are dangerous; fiendish sea creatures can be found along the coast. The tribes don't have a strong culture of sea travel, nor a lot of resources with which to build a fleet of sturdy ships… and while high level magic might provide options, high level casters aren't that common. Furthermore, a key factor here is that the typical Demon Waste barbarian simply isn't that motivated to make such a long, complicated, and dangerous journey. Most of the tribes feel that they are in their holy land, and furthermore, the feuds between tribes mean they spend more time fighting one another than assembling huge armies to attack Aundair. With that said… Were a charismatic leader (whether mortal, tiefling, or one of the Lords of Dust) to assemble a great horde, certainly, they could try to hit one of the edges. Likewise, a small tribe could specialize in edge runs, if it's driven to do so by its demon lords. So sure, you could certainly use any of these paths as a special story. But as a standard, the Labyrinth is easiest path… if you take the Ghaash'kala out of the equation. The Icehorns and Shadowcrags defend themselves. The Labyrinth needs its ghost guardians. If the tribes do not raid beyond these borders and instead try and occasionally force their way through the Labyrinth, could you (time permitting) tell us why? Again, a key thing to bear in mind is that the Carrion Tribes know next to nothing about what lies beyond the Labyrinth. They aren't specifically trying to get at Aundair or the Reaches, because they don't know what they are. If they travel south, it is either out of a simple desire for blood and battle – in which case orc blood will do just as well as human – or because they have been charged with a divine mission by their demon idols. In the latter case, they may be more careful, and in my opinion there are a few small tribes that do specialize in making these crossings (I believe this was mentioned in the Lords of Dust article in Dragon). What would the Ghaash'kala do? They are limited by their numbers and their own lack of high level casters. They do the best they can, but they can't monitor the entire range. If they did learn of a truly massive horde gathering, the priests would turn to Kalok Shash for guidance, using commune to ask for advice; this in turn could result in a messenger being sent south in such of the heroes spoken of in a cryptic prophecy from the Flame. Adventure, anyone?
OctaviusIII 05-16-07, 04:59 PM	Don't forget that there are about 150,000 demons in the Wastes, and a good deal of them probably have flight. Another thing: orcs do have to eat, and, if they've settled down anywhere, they'll have farms on the mesas (it's possible - just look up the Hopi). The Labyrinth is worse for those that go on foot, but if you're flying or jumping over the mesas, don't worry: someone's bound to catch you.
MetaEidolon 05-16-07, 07:56 PM	Don't forget that there are about 150,000 demons in the Wastes, and a good deal of them probably have flight. See this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=823608) For more thoughts on the population of the Wastes. I don't think that a "good deal" would have flight, personally I feel that most of the non-fiendish template demons would be rashaksa, and they don't fly.
Darakhoranon 05-21-07, 03:28 PM	I don't think that a "good deal" would have flight, personally I feel that most of the non-fiendish template demons would be rashaksa, and they don't fly. Oh, but I can imagine seeing flying rakshasas - at least after they have been "launched" by a catapult (or an angry demon lord...) that is... Seriously, though, the Labyrinth is the ONLY way for mid-level characters/demons/whatevers to get into or out of the Demon Wastes. Sure, you COULD force your way through forbidding mountains or schools of fiendish dolphins (Flipper from Hell...). But in that case you´d better be very high-level and very well equipped...