Deneith, Medani, Tharashk and the Law [Archive] - Wizards Community

Deneith, Medani, Tharashk and the Law [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Syltorian
02-12-08, 03:12 PM We know that the Sentinel Marshals have special powers to arrest criminals wherever they may be in the Five Nations (and the rest of the Thronehold nations, I think). But there are some questions I have about this arrangement, and the business other houses have in crime-fighting matters.

1) Can the Sentinel Marshals also enter dragonmarked house enclaves (not belonging to Deneith) without the permission of the local baron, or a superior? I believe the regular guards of the city/nation cannot do this without violating neutrality - and I have some trouble seeing, say, Tharashk allowing their hated rivals to come in and poke their nose in House-of-Finding business.

2) Do Tharashk's bounty-hunters or Medani Inquisitives have the right to arrest people? Since the Sentinel Marshal's are mentioned specifically for their policing privileges, I assume that the other houses cannot... but how do the Medani and Tharashk work, then (where they do official business, and don't follow private commissions)? Do these powerful houses, the rivals of nations, get the usual trouble with the police episodes that many detective movies feature? Or do they get special powers of arrest granted ad hoc every time they accept a job from the authorities? What if Medani discovers a plot or new criminal activity in the course of their regular screening for dangers: can they legally intervene, or do they have go to the nearest guard post and fill out forms in triplicate while waiting for the local forces to do something?

3) In particular, how does the Basilisk's Eye (mentioned in FoW, under Medani), the group chasing war criminals, go about its business? Does it have special rights granted them by the war-criminal court in Thronehold (it doesn't mention them in that write-up in FoW, so by 'canon', they don't)? Simply finding them and then calling on Deneith (whom Medani doesn't like) or the local forces (who may want to shield their own war-criminals instead of extraditing them to Thronehold) seems a bit cumbersome and humiliating.

As always, thanks for any help!
Amaril
02-12-08, 04:30 PM 1. I assume a warrant would be necessary. The Dragonmarked Houses aren't above the law.

2. Most bounty hunters are licensed in the real world and can legally enter a fugitive's private property without a warrant.

I would read Wikipedia's entry on bounty hunter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bounty_hunter) for more information. It'll give you a solid idea of how this could all work.

A solid d20 resource to consider is Keith Baker's own Crime and Punishment (http://www.atlas-games.com/product_tables/AG3223.php) book. It's perfect for this subject! It includes two base classes, Investigator and Bounty Hunter.
Fabius Maximus
02-12-08, 04:34 PM 1) I doubt they can. The houses usually police themselves, so any interference will be met with every means possible.

2) Why not? If adventurers can be comissioned to find and arrest someone, than these houses can too.

3) I would assume they are under special orders of the Thronehold court. How far these orders reach is a entirely political matter.
Syltorian
02-13-08, 07:53 AM I would read Wikipedia's entry on bounty hunter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bounty_hunter) for more information. It'll give you a solid idea of how this could all work.

Thanks for that! That's a very interesting read, and I went on to read the article about Pinkerton, which is also interesting for Medani. There are some interesting jobs there which Medani could offer, from travel-advice ('what do I have to pay attention to if I go to visit Atur?') to risk assessment, employee (or adventurer) background checks, even special crisis intervention teams (evacuating people on safe ways before the magical contamination spreads from the arcane lab).

A bit off-topic: Wikipedia does not answer this question, and a google-search did not find anything either, but does anyone have information about the legal situation of bounty-hunters in Europe (or at least, outside the US)? I'd be very interested in that.

1) I doubt they can. The houses usually police themselves, so any interference will be met with every means possible.

That's what I thought. So if the House refuses to hand over one of their members, little can be done but diplomatic manoeuvering, applying pressure, or waiting for the target to leave the enclave for whatever reason...

2) Why not? If adventurers can be comissioned to find and arrest someone, than these houses can too.

Good point, but that would mean that Medani has to be commissioned for each case, and does not have standing orders.

3) I would assume they are under special orders of the Thronehold court. How far these orders reach is a entirely political matter.

That would be the best way to deal with it. They have the right to arrest this person as far as Thronehold is concerned, but whether the nation where the criminal is hiding chooses to recognise that right might is a different question.

A solid d20 resource to consider is Keith Baker's own Crime and Punishment (http://www.atlas-games.com/product_tables/AG3223.php) book. It's perfect for this subject! It includes two base classes, Investigator and Bounty Hunter.

You know, I actually own that book... but utterly forgot to check it on this topic, so thanks for reminding me about this. I wonder whether Khorvaire has any itinerant justices, and whether Medani agents could be found as permanent staff members with these crown officials.

I've also wondered how Medani and Tharashk are getting on with each other. They both have investigators, although Tharashk seems to be dealing more with low-level crime, retrieval of objects and people, and so forth, whereas Medani finds out whodunnit and will send people who are looking for their lost dog over to the House of Finding. But there must be some competition between the two, and possibly some co-operation (Medani finds out who the culprit was, Tharashk can go and find out where he is and bring him back for the prosecution working with Medani-procured evidence).

Oh, and another question, this time regarding the Sentinel Marshals: who pulls rank on whom if the Marshal is sent to arrest, say, a Citadel Agent in Breland, for crimes committed in Thrane? Or do we just ignore that, lest there is another war?
skrap-san
02-13-08, 09:11 AM A bit off-topic: Wikipedia does not answer this question, and a google-search did not find anything either, but does anyone have information about the legal situation of bounty-hunters in Europe (or at least, outside the US)? I'd be very interested in that.

Given that I come from Norway I can't really answer this question to the fullest. The reason is that Europe as whole is consistent of several nations all with different laws and traditions when it comes to apprehension of criminals. But as far as I have noticed there is no big bounty hunter culture in Europe, at least not as big as in the USA it would seem. But once again, I only live far to the cold north.
Amaril
02-13-08, 09:11 AM I've also wondered how Medani and Tharashk are getting on with each other. They both have investigators, although Tharashk seems to be dealing more with low-level crime, retrieval of objects and people, and so forth, whereas Medani finds out whodunnit and will send people who are looking for their lost dog over to the House of Finding. But there must be some competition between the two, and possibly some co-operation (Medani finds out who the culprit was, Tharashk can go and find out where he is and bring him back for the prosecution working with Medani-procured evidence).
In my campaign, they reciprocate services. A Tharashk bounty hunter might need some leads or clues and hires an investigator, and Medani investigators might send business referrals to Tharashk once they've figured out the whodunnit part.

Having investigators in both houses is fine since the role of the investigator might be different. Medani investigators might be more concerned with gathering evidence whereas Tharashk investigators need to find out where a victim or criminal might be.
Syltorian
02-13-08, 03:08 PM Given that I come from Norway I can't really answer this question to the fullest. The reason is that Europe as whole is consistent of several nations all with different laws and traditions when it comes to apprehension of criminals. But as far as I have noticed there is no big bounty hunter culture in Europe, at least not as big as in the USA it would seem. But once again, I only live far to the cold north.

That was my impression, even if where I live. But to me the modern bounty-hunters in the US was news, so I would not be surprised if I had lived my life without noticing something similar here - that's why I wanted to confirm. But you are right, the great number of our nations would make this feature a diplomatic headache here. Though US bounty-hunters (see the article linked to above) have managed to arrest people in Canada and Mexico, albeit rarely, so frontiers do not necessarily stop this practice. I can't remember hearing of a similar incident in Europe, but then I've never heard of this in the States until yesterday.

In my campaign, they reciprocate services. A Tharashk bounty hunter might need some leads or clues and hires an investigator, and Medani investigators might send business referrals to Tharashk once they've figured out the whodunnit part.

Having investigators in both houses is fine since the role of the investigator might be different. Medani investigators might be more concerned with gathering evidence whereas Tharashk investigators need to find out where a victim or criminal might be.

Sounds like a good way of doing things. Otherwise, Tharashk would have an interesting tradition of intruding on other the turf of other Houses, after they barged into the mercenary business traditionally controlled by Deneith. Of course, Medani is mostly there to prevent crime/accidents/other problems; finding out what went wrong afterwards is more a side-line, if an important one (finding the murderer of Boranel's first wife, I believe, is one of their current jobs).
Amaril
02-13-08, 03:14 PM Of course, Medani is mostly there to prevent crime/accidents/other problems; finding out what went wrong afterwards is more a side-line, if an important one (finding the murderer of Boranel's first wife, I believe, is one of their current jobs).
And that's a good point to remember. I forget sometimes that Medani's services include proactive measures rather than reactive measures.
Fabius Maximus
02-14-08, 07:06 AM Don't forgot that when I say "The houses usually police themselves" I mean that they would punish offenders internally. As far as I know, this is widely accepted.

If it means excoriation, the person has to leave the enclave and is not under the houses protection anymore.
skrap-san
02-14-08, 08:22 AM I would also guess that the individual houses would be pretty interested in rooting out criminals as fast as possible before they give the rest of the house a bad reputation. So to expect protection no matter what is kinda foolish, of course there is exceptions.
Gurv
02-14-08, 09:20 AM The way I run it is like this:

Dragonmarked Houses are treated as sovereign nations, with details laid out in the Edicts of Korth. Their recognized enclaves function as embassies, with local laws not applying within their boundaries. The Edicts outline some basic restrictions on what can and cannot go in within an enclave, as well as extradition policy. Members of the house do not have any kind of immunity when they leave an enclave however; they must follow local law just as any other foreigner must.

Individual members of House Deneith do not have international police power. The Sentinel Marshals, who are overseen by Deneith are the ones who can cross international borders. Getting into the Marshals is not easy, as it involves years of training and intensive screening. Abusing the power of the Sentinel Marshal results in expulsion and serious punishment. Since the Marshals have the power to ignore national borders, they are also the ones who are called upon to enter dragonmark enclaves when evidence points to wrongdoing within (whether this is a fugitive hiding within or actual questionable behavior by the residents). The Sentinel Marshal are the ultimate neutral party, gaining no benefit from taking sides and therefore caring only for the letter of the law.

None of the other dragonmarked houses have the power to make arrests based on their suspicions. Only the official authorities have that power, and it is limited to the domains that they administer.

But (in my campaign at least) it is common for wanted individuals to have bounties on their heads. When a criminal escapes, or a suspect eludes the law, the local magistrate issues a decree requiring anyone capable of capturing them to do so. A reward is common, often small, but varying with the reputation of the accused.

In short, anyone can arrest an outlaw.
aelryinth
02-19-08, 03:37 PM Syltorian:

The reason you don't hear about bounty hunters in Europe is because they don't have them.

In Europe, when you post bail, you do so with the local government, putting up collatoral, etc. If you skip bail, its now a legal issue and the police are sent after you.

In America, we use a system considered very backwards, in that bail bondsmen do the securing of collatoral, a private enterprise. This leads to notorious cases of corruption where judges, sheriffs and bail bondsmen work together to extort money out of people by forcing them to use the bondsmen to get out of jail.
As a private enterprise, the bail bondsmen can hire private individuals to go and reclaim those people who skip on him...these people are called bounty hunters, and have certain legal rights to act in pursuit of their targets.

It takes 50-100 bail bonds for a bondsmen to make up the money on one person who skips, so they take skipping very seriously. Bounty hunters aren't gentle, because they are supposed to be dissuading people from doing this kind of thing, and those who skip are literally criminals trying to avoid their day in court.

As for going after people for whom a reward has been posted...that's a completely different subject.

===Aelryinth
Syltorian
02-19-08, 04:03 PM Thanks a lot, Aelryinth! There is a lot of interesting information in your reply.
Vharuck
02-20-08, 05:18 PM Another thing to remember is that in the US, police are often told to leave bounty hunters alone. They step on each other's toes a lot, and so the lack of dealings can be the same as turning a blind eye. I doubt many cases of "unnecessary force" have been brought against bounty hunters.

Also, what of citizen's arrest? Can a shopkeeper in Sharn who witnesses a crime detain and immediately bring the criminal to the Watch?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Syltorian 02-12-08, 03:12 PM	We know that the Sentinel Marshals have special powers to arrest criminals wherever they may be in the Five Nations (and the rest of the Thronehold nations, I think). But there are some questions I have about this arrangement, and the business other houses have in crime-fighting matters. 1) Can the Sentinel Marshals also enter dragonmarked house enclaves (not belonging to Deneith) without the permission of the local baron, or a superior? I believe the regular guards of the city/nation cannot do this without violating neutrality - and I have some trouble seeing, say, Tharashk allowing their hated rivals to come in and poke their nose in House-of-Finding business. 2) Do Tharashk's bounty-hunters or Medani Inquisitives have the right to arrest people? Since the Sentinel Marshal's are mentioned specifically for their policing privileges, I assume that the other houses cannot... but how do the Medani and Tharashk work, then (where they do official business, and don't follow private commissions)? Do these powerful houses, the rivals of nations, get the usual trouble with the police episodes that many detective movies feature? Or do they get special powers of arrest granted ad hoc every time they accept a job from the authorities? What if Medani discovers a plot or new criminal activity in the course of their regular screening for dangers: can they legally intervene, or do they have go to the nearest guard post and fill out forms in triplicate while waiting for the local forces to do something? 3) In particular, how does the Basilisk's Eye (mentioned in FoW, under Medani), the group chasing war criminals, go about its business? Does it have special rights granted them by the war-criminal court in Thronehold (it doesn't mention them in that write-up in FoW, so by 'canon', they don't)? Simply finding them and then calling on Deneith (whom Medani doesn't like) or the local forces (who may want to shield their own war-criminals instead of extraditing them to Thronehold) seems a bit cumbersome and humiliating. As always, thanks for any help!
Amaril 02-12-08, 04:30 PM	1. I assume a warrant would be necessary. The Dragonmarked Houses aren't above the law. 2. Most bounty hunters are licensed in the real world and can legally enter a fugitive's private property without a warrant. I would read Wikipedia's entry on bounty hunter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bounty_hunter) for more information. It'll give you a solid idea of how this could all work. A solid d20 resource to consider is Keith Baker's own Crime and Punishment (http://www.atlas-games.com/product_tables/AG3223.php) book. It's perfect for this subject! It includes two base classes, Investigator and Bounty Hunter.
Fabius Maximus 02-12-08, 04:34 PM	1) I doubt they can. The houses usually police themselves, so any interference will be met with every means possible. 2) Why not? If adventurers can be comissioned to find and arrest someone, than these houses can too. 3) I would assume they are under special orders of the Thronehold court. How far these orders reach is a entirely political matter.
Syltorian 02-13-08, 07:53 AM	I would read Wikipedia's entry on bounty hunter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bounty_hunter) for more information. It'll give you a solid idea of how this could all work. Thanks for that! That's a very interesting read, and I went on to read the article about Pinkerton, which is also interesting for Medani. There are some interesting jobs there which Medani could offer, from travel-advice ('what do I have to pay attention to if I go to visit Atur?') to risk assessment, employee (or adventurer) background checks, even special crisis intervention teams (evacuating people on safe ways before the magical contamination spreads from the arcane lab). A bit off-topic: Wikipedia does not answer this question, and a google-search did not find anything either, but does anyone have information about the legal situation of bounty-hunters in Europe (or at least, outside the US)? I'd be very interested in that. 1) I doubt they can. The houses usually police themselves, so any interference will be met with every means possible. That's what I thought. So if the House refuses to hand over one of their members, little can be done but diplomatic manoeuvering, applying pressure, or waiting for the target to leave the enclave for whatever reason... 2) Why not? If adventurers can be comissioned to find and arrest someone, than these houses can too. Good point, but that would mean that Medani has to be commissioned for each case, and does not have standing orders. 3) I would assume they are under special orders of the Thronehold court. How far these orders reach is a entirely political matter. That would be the best way to deal with it. They have the right to arrest this person as far as Thronehold is concerned, but whether the nation where the criminal is hiding chooses to recognise that right might is a different question. A solid d20 resource to consider is Keith Baker's own Crime and Punishment (http://www.atlas-games.com/product_tables/AG3223.php) book. It's perfect for this subject! It includes two base classes, Investigator and Bounty Hunter. You know, I actually own that book... but utterly forgot to check it on this topic, so thanks for reminding me about this. I wonder whether Khorvaire has any itinerant justices, and whether Medani agents could be found as permanent staff members with these crown officials. I've also wondered how Medani and Tharashk are getting on with each other. They both have investigators, although Tharashk seems to be dealing more with low-level crime, retrieval of objects and people, and so forth, whereas Medani finds out whodunnit and will send people who are looking for their lost dog over to the House of Finding. But there must be some competition between the two, and possibly some co-operation (Medani finds out who the culprit was, Tharashk can go and find out where he is and bring him back for the prosecution working with Medani-procured evidence). Oh, and another question, this time regarding the Sentinel Marshals: who pulls rank on whom if the Marshal is sent to arrest, say, a Citadel Agent in Breland, for crimes committed in Thrane? Or do we just ignore that, lest there is another war?
skrap-san 02-13-08, 09:11 AM	A bit off-topic: Wikipedia does not answer this question, and a google-search did not find anything either, but does anyone have information about the legal situation of bounty-hunters in Europe (or at least, outside the US)? I'd be very interested in that. Given that I come from Norway I can't really answer this question to the fullest. The reason is that Europe as whole is consistent of several nations all with different laws and traditions when it comes to apprehension of criminals. But as far as I have noticed there is no big bounty hunter culture in Europe, at least not as big as in the USA it would seem. But once again, I only live far to the cold north.
Amaril 02-13-08, 09:11 AM	I've also wondered how Medani and Tharashk are getting on with each other. They both have investigators, although Tharashk seems to be dealing more with low-level crime, retrieval of objects and people, and so forth, whereas Medani finds out whodunnit and will send people who are looking for their lost dog over to the House of Finding. But there must be some competition between the two, and possibly some co-operation (Medani finds out who the culprit was, Tharashk can go and find out where he is and bring him back for the prosecution working with Medani-procured evidence). In my campaign, they reciprocate services. A Tharashk bounty hunter might need some leads or clues and hires an investigator, and Medani investigators might send business referrals to Tharashk once they've figured out the whodunnit part. Having investigators in both houses is fine since the role of the investigator might be different. Medani investigators might be more concerned with gathering evidence whereas Tharashk investigators need to find out where a victim or criminal might be.
Syltorian 02-13-08, 03:08 PM	Given that I come from Norway I can't really answer this question to the fullest. The reason is that Europe as whole is consistent of several nations all with different laws and traditions when it comes to apprehension of criminals. But as far as I have noticed there is no big bounty hunter culture in Europe, at least not as big as in the USA it would seem. But once again, I only live far to the cold north. That was my impression, even if where I live. But to me the modern bounty-hunters in the US was news, so I would not be surprised if I had lived my life without noticing something similar here - that's why I wanted to confirm. But you are right, the great number of our nations would make this feature a diplomatic headache here. Though US bounty-hunters (see the article linked to above) have managed to arrest people in Canada and Mexico, albeit rarely, so frontiers do not necessarily stop this practice. I can't remember hearing of a similar incident in Europe, but then I've never heard of this in the States until yesterday. In my campaign, they reciprocate services. A Tharashk bounty hunter might need some leads or clues and hires an investigator, and Medani investigators might send business referrals to Tharashk once they've figured out the whodunnit part. Having investigators in both houses is fine since the role of the investigator might be different. Medani investigators might be more concerned with gathering evidence whereas Tharashk investigators need to find out where a victim or criminal might be. Sounds like a good way of doing things. Otherwise, Tharashk would have an interesting tradition of intruding on other the turf of other Houses, after they barged into the mercenary business traditionally controlled by Deneith. Of course, Medani is mostly there to prevent crime/accidents/other problems; finding out what went wrong afterwards is more a side-line, if an important one (finding the murderer of Boranel's first wife, I believe, is one of their current jobs).
Amaril 02-13-08, 03:14 PM	Of course, Medani is mostly there to prevent crime/accidents/other problems; finding out what went wrong afterwards is more a side-line, if an important one (finding the murderer of Boranel's first wife, I believe, is one of their current jobs). And that's a good point to remember. I forget sometimes that Medani's services include proactive measures rather than reactive measures.
Fabius Maximus 02-14-08, 07:06 AM	Don't forgot that when I say "The houses usually police themselves" I mean that they would punish offenders internally. As far as I know, this is widely accepted. If it means excoriation, the person has to leave the enclave and is not under the houses protection anymore.
skrap-san 02-14-08, 08:22 AM	I would also guess that the individual houses would be pretty interested in rooting out criminals as fast as possible before they give the rest of the house a bad reputation. So to expect protection no matter what is kinda foolish, of course there is exceptions.
Gurv 02-14-08, 09:20 AM	The way I run it is like this: Dragonmarked Houses are treated as sovereign nations, with details laid out in the Edicts of Korth. Their recognized enclaves function as embassies, with local laws not applying within their boundaries. The Edicts outline some basic restrictions on what can and cannot go in within an enclave, as well as extradition policy. Members of the house do not have any kind of immunity when they leave an enclave however; they must follow local law just as any other foreigner must. Individual members of House Deneith do not have international police power. The Sentinel Marshals, who are overseen by Deneith are the ones who can cross international borders. Getting into the Marshals is not easy, as it involves years of training and intensive screening. Abusing the power of the Sentinel Marshal results in expulsion and serious punishment. Since the Marshals have the power to ignore national borders, they are also the ones who are called upon to enter dragonmark enclaves when evidence points to wrongdoing within (whether this is a fugitive hiding within or actual questionable behavior by the residents). The Sentinel Marshal are the ultimate neutral party, gaining no benefit from taking sides and therefore caring only for the letter of the law. None of the other dragonmarked houses have the power to make arrests based on their suspicions. Only the official authorities have that power, and it is limited to the domains that they administer. But (in my campaign at least) it is common for wanted individuals to have bounties on their heads. When a criminal escapes, or a suspect eludes the law, the local magistrate issues a decree requiring anyone capable of capturing them to do so. A reward is common, often small, but varying with the reputation of the accused. In short, anyone can arrest an outlaw.
aelryinth 02-19-08, 03:37 PM	Syltorian: The reason you don't hear about bounty hunters in Europe is because they don't have them. In Europe, when you post bail, you do so with the local government, putting up collatoral, etc. If you skip bail, its now a legal issue and the police are sent after you. In America, we use a system considered very backwards, in that bail bondsmen do the securing of collatoral, a private enterprise. This leads to notorious cases of corruption where judges, sheriffs and bail bondsmen work together to extort money out of people by forcing them to use the bondsmen to get out of jail. As a private enterprise, the bail bondsmen can hire private individuals to go and reclaim those people who skip on him...these people are called bounty hunters, and have certain legal rights to act in pursuit of their targets. It takes 50-100 bail bonds for a bondsmen to make up the money on one person who skips, so they take skipping very seriously. Bounty hunters aren't gentle, because they are supposed to be dissuading people from doing this kind of thing, and those who skip are literally criminals trying to avoid their day in court. As for going after people for whom a reward has been posted...that's a completely different subject. ===Aelryinth
Syltorian 02-19-08, 04:03 PM	Thanks a lot, Aelryinth! There is a lot of interesting information in your reply.
Vharuck 02-20-08, 05:18 PM	Another thing to remember is that in the US, police are often told to leave bounty hunters alone. They step on each other's toes a lot, and so the lack of dealings can be the same as turning a blind eye. I doubt many cases of "unnecessary force" have been brought against bounty hunters. Also, what of citizen's arrest? Can a shopkeeper in Sharn who witnesses a crime detain and immediately bring the criminal to the Watch?