Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lucas_Garczewski 03-18-07, 10:53 PM	I've read through ECS a couple of times and haven't found the answer to this. Maybe I'm missing something... The questions is: Why aren't the Dragonmarked Houses true nobles of the Five Nations? or Why don't the nobles (kings and queens included) have Dragonmarks? Obviously the Houses have both immense influence and great wealth. The nobility/royalty have even greater influence. It seems strange that the Dragonmarked families didn't somehow merge with the actual rulers. The normal way things would happen is political marriages here and there, until the houses would eventally become part of (a branch of) House Wynarn. And yet, this has not happened (or I haven't found any evidence of it happening). Obviously, Baron Cannith would benefit from marrying his daughters to the princes of Breland. Or Aundair. Or... You get the idea. :) So... Why hasn't this happened? The fact that the Houses try to keep neutral shouldn't matter here, because that policy began with the onset the Last War, and the process I'm pointing to here should have started much earlier. It might have something to do with Aberrant Dragonmarks, but if so I need help defining the connection, because I can't really pinpoint it. Ideas?
Romulus LoneWolf 03-18-07, 11:09 PM	The main reason I can see is this.. If the Dragonmarked Houses start mingling with actual Nobles, this means the Dragonmarked bloodlines will start diluting, and possibly intermingle within second or third cousins thrice removed.. ...And that increases the risk of Aberrant Dragonmarks appearing, and nobody wants that. Besides, if the Dragonmarked Houses start picking sides in Khorvaire, that means they'd get dragged down into the game of politics themselves, which might hurt their businesses. After all, if House Deneith started marrying into Karrnath's nobility, do you really think Aundair and Thrane would trust them to stay neutral and maintain the Sentinel Marshals? The Dragonmarked Houses stay out of Politics and the Nobility because their Neutrality means they can do business with everyone.
JustX 03-18-07, 11:17 PM	The answer could be even more simple: 1) Dragonmarked are prevented by law from holding land. 2) The land granted to a noble to govern is what makes them nobles. 3) As a noble would you really want to postion the dragonmarked into position to gain even more power? 4) Finally, when a noble and a dragonmarked marry, one must cut ties with their families offically and this means that it does and has happen, but there are rules to prevent things from giving noble or marked too much control over the other group.
goblin_pride 03-19-07, 02:06 AM	If I recall correctly, the Edicts of Korth included a bit about the D'marked houses not being able to hold land or title. The houses can't be neutral if they vest themselves in the nobility of one nation or another and thus they can't hold title in any.
Nived 03-19-07, 03:34 AM	The Edicts of Korth make made it law that if a Noble and a D'Mark got involved one had to renounce ALL ties to their family. So if a Cannith married into the Brelish Royal Family the Cannith Heir would have to break ties with the House, no longer use the Cannith Name, could no longer work with the House directly etc etc etc. Or the Royal would have to renounce any rights, lands, or titles they held or would ever gain. The same goes for their children. As such its discouraged, and while it has happened, its never led to an unbalance.
loseth 03-19-07, 07:15 AM	Isn't the queen of Aundair married to a quite highly placed member of a dragonmarked family?
Bakho 03-19-07, 09:48 AM	You're right about Queen Aurala. Her husband's name is Sasik, formerly of House Vadalis. But he severed all ties to House Vadalis when he married Aurala.
DyloniusFunk 03-19-07, 10:52 AM	You're right about Queen Aurala. Her husband's name is Sasik, formerly of House Vadalis. But he severed all ties to House Vadalis when he married Aurala. Even so there are those who suspect Vadalis may have influence over the crown. Just cutting ties dosen't stop the rumor mongering
Bakho 03-19-07, 11:08 AM	Yup, but I don't think that the Queen would try to politically abuse her husband's connections to House Vadalis. That would put House Vadalis into a better position than the rest of the D'marked Houses, and I don't think that the rest of the D'marked Houses would look favorably at that. I would go as far to say that they would limit their services to the country, which would cripple Aundair's economy. So all ties to House Vadalis would be effectively severed.
Syltorian 03-19-07, 01:25 PM	House Vadalis also has strong ties in the Eldeen Reaches, which are ironically one of Aundair's main enemies. They do not control Greenheart, but the other major cities - Varna, Merylsward, Delethorn, Erlaskar, all but Merylsward on the frontier. I wonder what the marriage of Sasik to Aurala means from the point of view of the Aundair-Eldeen conflict. Besides, Aurala does have children, right? I believe it was mentioned somewhere that she refused to take part in the exchange of hostages. Does anyone know whether (or can we assume that) these children are hers by Sasik? We'd have more than a former Vadalis married to the Queen of Aundair. We'd have an orphan as crown-prince(ss).
Zombomaniac 03-19-07, 01:48 PM	Another thing I want to know is what happens to the kids? Mainly if they get a DM. Wouldn't the DMed Houseswant to keep DMed people in their House?
Bakho 03-19-07, 02:12 PM	I would say that the kids (for now, until and if they get a D'mark) are heirs to the throne. But if they would manifest a mark, House Vadalis would want to claim them. That would be an intersting plot...lets say that her first child manifests a mark. He (or she?) would be the first in line for the throne...and I wonder if him (or her) would dismiss their heritage because of it, and more importantly, would Aurala allow it?
goblin_pride 03-19-07, 02:21 PM	That would put Aurala in an interesting position. If she's looking to be the heir to the throne of Galifar she has to make sure that the laws of Galifar are upheld and any children she has with D'marks are the scions of house Vadalis. Aurala would be forced to surrender her own heirs to the house in order to uphold the laws of Galifar. Her husband's excoriation wouldn't apply to the children of the match. They could, given time, walk away from the house to rule Aundair, but until that time, they would belong to Vadalis.
Nived 03-19-07, 03:39 PM	The edicts further specified that no member of the aristocracy of Galifar could be bound in marriage to a member of a dragonmarked house without one of the two giving up all heiritage and rights I believe legally the parents would have custody of the children. If a scion renounced the house to marry a noble the house has no claim on the child even if they manifest a Siberys Dragonmark. Similarly if a noble gives up their rights to marry into a house their child will never be able to ascend to the throne (or barrony, or whatever noble title is in question). A noble child who develops a dragonmark could, when he comes of age, choose to renounce his titles and join a house... but just because he has a mark doesn't mean the houses get to 'claim' him.
Bakho 03-19-07, 04:00 PM	I was under the impression that the D'marked Houses did everything they could to re-claim a person 'out of the family' who manifested the mark, so that they could keep the monopoly on its magic. If the child would remain a heir to the throne, all future potential rulers could manifest the mark...which not only would ruin the House's monopoly on the mark, but would give it to a noble family!
Adhevan 03-19-07, 08:09 PM	I was under the impression that the D'marked Houses did everything they could to re-claim a person 'out of the family' who manifested the mark, so that they could keep the monopoly on its magic. If the child would remain a heir to the throne, all future potential rulers could manifest the mark...which not only would ruin the House's monopoly on the mark, but would give it to a noble family! Orphans are offered the chance to join the house and sometimes it is probably more like pressured than offered, but it would be difficult to pressure a royal heir. Those children not in line to inherit the title, though, would be more likely to join the DM House if they manifest a mark. But even if none of the children ever renounce their noble titles and join the DM House, it would take many generations for the nobles to have enough marks to be significant. Even then, I don't see it as much threat to the House's monopoly. Each House is well established and made up of many families. It would be very difficult for a single family to compete against an entire House even if they wanted to. In the specific case of Aurala's heirs, I can't really see them wanting to compete with Vadalis. Royal heirs taking up animal husbandry to make money?
Creature_Mastermind 03-19-07, 08:39 PM	in one of the books I read that if a DM person marries someone out of the house one must give all ties up and if they have a child with a DM the House pressures the child to join the house same with an excoriate(exile).
Wymarc 03-19-07, 09:11 PM	I'd just like to point out what few of the D'marked Houses have noticed so far: The Edicts of Korth were Galifar Law. the way I see it, Galifar has been dead for about 100 years, and the 3 most powerful houses(Deneith, Phiarlain and Canith) have been weakend......
Creature_Mastermind 03-19-07, 10:01 PM	what are you getting at there Wymarc you are looking very suspicious today says members of Deneith,Phiarlain and Cannith.you must be killed in the Mournland for our protection they say(and because noone would think to look for your body their).:schemes:
goblin_pride 03-20-07, 08:05 AM	(and because noone would think to look for your body their) Are you so certain?
Endless_Helix 03-20-07, 08:32 AM	Very few people would consider it a good idea to look for someone's body in the mournland... The corpse you find just might be your own...
Melvin the Mediocre 03-20-07, 09:22 AM	I've read through ECS a couple of times and haven't found the answer to this. Maybe I'm missing something... The questions is: Why aren't the Dragonmarked Houses true nobles of the Five Nations? or Why don't the nobles (kings and queens included) have Dragonmarks? Obviously the Houses have both immense influence and great wealth. The nobility/royalty have even greater influence. It seems strange that the Dragonmarked families didn't somehow merge with the actual rulers. The normal way things would happen is political marriages here and there, until the houses would eventally become part of (a branch of) House Wynarn. And yet, this has not happened (or I haven't found any evidence of it happening). Obviously, Baron Cannith would benefit from marrying his daughters to the princes of Breland. Or Aundair. Or... You get the idea. :) So... Why hasn't this happened? The fact that the Houses try to keep neutral shouldn't matter here, because that policy began with the onset the Last War, and the process I'm pointing to here should have started much earlier. It might have something to do with Aberrant Dragonmarks, but if so I need help defining the connection, because I can't really pinpoint it. Ideas? There are several references to DMarked House members begining to think this way. I'd have to review my books to makes sure this is all correct, but I think the gist of it goes something like this: At the time Karn the Conquorer and Galifar were in power, the houses were to weak to make a bid for rulership . Because the rising Dragon Marked Houses were seen as competition, laws were put into effect to limit their power. As the DMarked Houses began to become a force of their own, fears of aberrant marks kept them from playing with marriage based plays for power. Now that Galifar has fallen, and the strong aberrant marks are but a distant memory, some houses are questioning their position. Lyrandar I know has younger members looking at upsetting the social order (per the Dragon Marked book), and if I remember correctly House Deneith has a few thinking along the same lines. I think it is interesting that Thronehold is already under the protection of House Deneith...
Nived 03-20-07, 03:14 PM	True, but most of these rumblings of discontent seem to be from young mavericks. I don't see how the Houses could hope to take over. No one house has the power and its unlikely that you'd ever get all the houses on board together. I mean Cannith is on the brink of breaking in three and House Phiarlan has already broken apart. With Galifar shattered its seems the d'marked houses are also starting to fracture. Now granted its certainly possible to create a story where the D'marks try to set themselves up as rulers of Khorvaire, I just can't see it working.
Vharuck 03-20-07, 04:11 PM	I was under the impression that the D'marked Houses did everything they could to re-claim a person 'out of the family' who manifested the mark, so that they could keep the monopoly on its magic. If the child would remain a heir to the throne, all future potential rulers could manifest the mark...which not only would ruin the House's monopoly on the mark, but would give it to a noble family! I see three problems with the scenario of a noble family rife with dragonmarks being a threat to the dragonmarked house: 1) The House has more resources. Nobles, no matter how rich, don't own as many airships as Lyrandar or special forges as Cannith. 2) Dragonmarked houses are politically neutral and so are dealt with all over Khorvaire. Karnns, Brelish, Aundairians, they all freely and happily use the services provided by the houses. A Karnnathi noble, however, probably would be accepted doing business in Thrane. A Thranish noble would probably not be welcome anywhere. 3) To threaten a house, the noble must deal in that house's trade. Good thing nobles don't really often take up a trade for their career. They're nobles. They lead and tax the people who learn trades.
goblin_pride 03-20-07, 04:22 PM	They're nobles. They lead and tax the people who learn trades. Those who can, do. Those who can't, tax. Got it. Although I think that pretty much explains every political system ever devised.
Vharuck 03-21-07, 09:14 PM	Those we can, do. Those who can't, tax. Got it. Although I think that pretty much explains every political system ever devised. I hate to be the stickler and stabber of anarchic dreams of utopia, but things work much mroe smoothly when a few people oversee many. That they may do less work is irrelevant and showcases how we judge the concept of "fairness" above everything. Of course, that's not to say that some bad apples (or bad apple civilizations) don't abuse it.