Post/Author/DateTime	Post
naturax 11-06-07, 12:15 PM	If anyone has any ideas for something House Vadalis could be doing that would motivate the Ashbound to make a large-scale attack on Varna itself, I'd love to hear 'em. All the players know right now is that Dalin's brother (the one who married Queen of Aundair) was visiting the Vadalis estate the night of an Ashbound attack (which involved fires being set and animals being freed). The players don't know what the motivation of the attack was, but then again neither do I, and that's why I'm looking for help. The campaign just started and I want to focus on Ashbound vs Vadalis. I'm tempted to use modern themes about megacorporate agriculture and factory farming vs ecoterrorists so maybe there's a real-world technique or process that I can transport into Eberron? I want to stress that this can't get too gross for me: I think I'd have trouble running a game in which the players rescue, say, magebred cows because the idea of describing a Vadalis milking facility nauseates me. I guess that puts me in a difficult position, but I appreciate any input nonetheless. So far the best I've come up with is Vadalis stealing shifters in order to experiment on them in order to create magebred shifters (or find the root of lycanthropy or something) but I think I can do better. Ideally whatever "evil" project Vadalis is working on would only seem really evil to the Ashbound, as I want to maintain that Vadalis is a good-aligned organization on the whole. I want Vadalis to be able to claim a moral high ground for their research in order to prevent things from becoming black & white (ashbound good, vadalis bad). Perhaps Vadalis is working on some technique that will improve the lives of the civilized at the cost of making animals suffer, for example, which is an issue that the PCs (and hopefully their players) will have to grapple with before they decide what kind of involvement to take. Thanks for your help!
Yakman 11-06-07, 12:28 PM	Vadalis may be concerned about rumblings beyond the Labyrinth, and is seeking to create powerful beasts to counter threats from over the mountains. Moreover, it's possible that while Vadalis as a whole is a good organization, it may be being subverted by someone with less than honorable intentions--I've always felt the daelkyr and their allies would be very interested in Vadalis. They may be experimenting on a daelkyr experiment and crossing it with other creatures. Something like that may anger the Ashbound, but be done in the best intentions. Like the unseen corporate villains in Alien.
Vharuck 11-06-07, 12:43 PM	Vadalis is using magic. On nature. Next door to the Ashbound. These points alone are enough to infuriate the Ashbound into action.
naturax 11-06-07, 01:28 PM	Vadalis is using magic. On nature. Next door to the Ashbound. These points alone are enough to infuriate the Ashbound into action. But they aren't stupid and they don't have limitless resources. The whole world is using magic and they are going to have to pick their battles. Also, if they want to make an example of Vadalis, they're probably going to have to make sure that some sort of message is delivered: so how, exactly, are they going to deliver the message? They don't want to be painted as a bunch of lunatics so they aren't going to act like a bunch of lunatics. They do, however, want to be painted as embodying a rational belief that happens to contradict the status quo, and they are willing to use violence to do so. So what actions can they take to make people see that?
DyloniusFunk 11-06-07, 01:59 PM	But they aren't stupid and they don't have limitless resources. The whole world is using magic and they are going to have to pick their battles. Also, if they want to make an example of Vadalis, they're probably going to have to make sure that some sort of message is delivered: so how, exactly, are they going to deliver the message? They don't want to be painted as a bunch of lunatics so they aren't going to act like a bunch of lunatics. They do, however, want to be painted as embodying a rational belief that happens to contradict the status quo, and they are willing to use violence to do so. So what actions can they take to make people see that? If i may quote from FOE... The sect is small in number (around 1,700 members) but compensates in it's sheer fanaticism. Not for them the careful line between nature and civilization-all that is artificial or unnatural is dangerous, with arcane magic at the top of the list. Nature's purity must be defended at all costs. I would argue that the Ashbound don't care how they're percieved, because to them the mission is more important. Kind of like the New England Patriots. :rimshot: In all seriousness, the Ashbound are not stupid. They could attack the Vadalis HQ whenever they wanted, and i imagien they would do a lot of damage. But they would probably also lose a lot of men and resources in such an attack> also keep in mind that according to FOE, the Ashbound don't like to use armor or weapons for the most part. Those who are part of martial classes usually go for unarmed fighting styles, particularly shifters. So that would put them at a dsiadvantage. Also they don't use arcane magic and you can beat the Vadalis HQ keeps some wands of fireball and such handy in the event of an attack. So i would think it would take a major thing to convince them to attack. One idea might be that they are using fiendish animals caught in the Wastes and trying to crossbred them with lycanthropes, to creat a ultimate fighting beast. Sorry i can't come up with anything better right now
naturax 11-06-07, 02:35 PM	So i would think it would take a major thing to convince them to attack. One idea might be that they are using fiendish animals caught in the Wastes and trying to crossbred them with lycanthropes, to creat a ultimate fighting beast. Sorry i can't come up with anything better right now So the first game of my campaign established that the Ashbound did attack Varna (or at least the attack is going to be blamed on them) and now I'm trying to justify that action. Let's say that Vadalis has, up until this point, been rather comfortable and that the Ashbound caught them off guard. However, their response is going to be... severe. Especially if the Ashbound just destroyed/made off with whatever super secret research they were just working on. Let's say they are creating some sort of super fighting beast, like a lycanthrope without the negatives, or a strain of magebred shifters. How would they profit from this? What's the business case for taking such a big risk? I'm trying to brainstorm some ideas and therefore these are not rhetorical questions at all. ... is figuring out the story after the fact common for you other DMs? Is this called cowboy-DMing or something?
Yakman 11-06-07, 02:36 PM	In all seriousness, the Ashbound are not stupid. They could attack the Vadalis HQ whenever they wanted, and i imagien they would do a lot of damage. But they would probably also lose a lot of men and resources in such an attack> also keep in mind that according to FOE, the Ashbound don't like to use armor or weapons for the most part. Those who are part of martial classes usually go for unarmed fighting styles, particularly shifters. So that would put them at a dsiadvantage. Also they don't use arcane magic and you can beat the Vadalis HQ keeps some wands of fireball and such handy in the event of an attack. So i would think it would take a major thing to convince them to attack. One idea might be that they are using fiendish animals caught in the Wastes and trying to crossbred them with lycanthropes, to creat a ultimate fighting beast. Sorry i can't come up with anything better right now well, they might just try to use a guerilla-style attack to weaken vadalis and force them out of a particular site, much like the sioux used against the u.s. army. vadalis would respond by upping the ante--cutting down trees, building more fortresses, further enraging the ashbound until it came to a head.
naturax 11-06-07, 02:45 PM	well, they might just try to use a guerilla-style attack to weaken vadalis and force them out of a particular site, much like the sioux used against the u.s. army. vadalis would respond by upping the ante--cutting down trees, building more fortresses, further enraging the ashbound until it came to a head. How could I get the PCs involved a situation such as the one you described?
Yakman 11-06-07, 07:27 PM	How could I get the PCs involved a situation such as the one you described? any number of ways. the old 'the caravan is missing' trick never fails. they might be doing something completely different when fighting erupts around them--trying to track an [insert monster(s) here] that's been spotted when they just happen to be in the wrong place in the wrong time.... it really depends on your pcs backgrounds, motivations, etc..
Rechan 11-07-07, 01:24 AM	First of all, I do want to point out that while Vandalis may be a Good House, that doesn't mean that there are bad elements in there. This is Eberron, after all. Some Vandalis heir toying with Daelkyr magic or knowledge from Mordain the Fleshweaver. Let's say they are creating some sort of super fighting beast, like a lycanthrope without the negatives, or a strain of magebred shifters. How would they profit from this? What's the business case for taking such a big risk? I honestly like the idea of Vandalis harnessing Lycanthropy in a relatively safe manner. Maybe Magebred Lycanthropes, lycanthropes of domesticated species (horses, dogs, beasts of burden), or toying with a way to make Afflicted Lycanthropes into True Lycanthropes (thus, they have full control and breed true). Which I believe might anger the Silver Flame (unless they had secret approval by the Flame, as the Flame sees this as trying to "Make lycanthropes good/a way to prevent Evil lycanthropes from going nuts by finding a way to infect them with "Good" strains). The profits there would be creating a "Good" natured powered soldier (or powerful workers), sort've like the "organic" version of Cannith making Warforged; potent labor force. Maybe the benefit would be great appreciation/adoration by the Shifter population. However that doesn't help you with the Ashbound. So how about this. When a foreign species with predators is introduced to a new environment, it can be disastrous. There's an island somewhere in RL that had snakes accidentally introduced - within three years, the snakes ate all the birds, because there was nothing to keep them in check. Perhaps Vandalis is creating a type of animal that, if it escaped into the wild, would wreak havoc on the natural ecosystem. Maybe it's a prey species that can magically allude predators, making it almost impervious to being caught, and it would quickly overpopulate and eat all the food. Maybe it's a species that, due to Vandalis's tampering, could easily kill all of animal x in the local ecosystem, throwing everything out of wack (like bees, who pollinate most plants, or eat all the predatory birds, leading to a mouse epidemic) . Maybe disease y is something that keeps animal x in check, and Vandalis wants to animal x that can wipe out disease y completely. The point is, the Ashbound aren't just revolting against Vandalis because they are "using magic to defile nature", but "What they are doing could crash the entire natural order of several dozen square miles." The Ashbound mount an assault to protect the area from Vandalis's experiment. Another idea is maybe Vandalis isn't just making magebred animals, but they are making entirely new species that is an abomination. Taking two animals and through magic, make a combination (think Griffon or owlbear), for varying purposes - an amphibian leopard intended for living in moats as a guard beast, hawk/cougar or owl/leopard mounts that are easier to control than griffons, etc. is figuring out the story after the fact common for you other DMs? Is this called cowboy-DMing or something? Very rarely have I ever done something and THEN worked it into the story. Usually that only happens when the PCs go totally into left field and I need to come up with on the fly. Almost always, I am a fairly meticulous planner. One way you could get your PCs involved is have Vandalis hire them as trappers. "Here's some Sleep Arrows, and here's a bag of holding with several hours worth of air. Bring us creature X." or "Bring us eggs from monster y". They're attacked by the Ashbound who find out what they're doing. Another is that Vandalis aren't just animal breeders, but vets - they could need herbs to make medicine because there's a disease killing chickens, they're running low on medicine, and they need plant A that can only be found in Ashbound Territory.
eehamburg 11-07-07, 09:50 AM	In RL, weren't rabbits introduced to Australia with disastrous effects?
Yakman 11-07-07, 11:49 AM	One way you could get your PCs involved is have Vandalis hire them as trappers. "Here's some Sleep Arrows, and here's a bag of holding with several hours worth of air. Bring us creature X." or "Bring us eggs from monster y". They're attacked by the Ashbound who find out what they're doing. Another is that Vandalis aren't just animal breeders, but vets - they could need herbs to make medicine because there's a disease killing chickens, they're running low on medicine, and they need plant A that can only be found in Ashbound Territory. what might be cool about this is that if the PCs do join with the Ashbound, they would eventually be forced to fight and destroy the monster that they helped create.
naturax 11-07-07, 12:18 PM	what might be cool about this is that if the PCs do join with the Ashbound, they would eventually be forced to fight and destroy the monster that they helped create. The PCs have started off as agents of the Ashbound covertly working in Varna. The first and only session I ran was them disabling the Sivis Messaging Station/Vadalis Messaging Aviary just before the "attack" on Varna started. The players were told by their contact that they had that one role to play, so they don't even know what else was going on or why the attack was planned then or anything: it's wide open for me to figure out. Rechan, I'm really liking the idea of Vadalis constructing something they see as benign, like some new strain of plant or animal, that ostensibly is 100% beneficial for everyone, eg. "what problem could the crazy Ashbound possibly have with our cute little bunnies?", when the Ashbound understand that it's going to wreak havoc on ecosystems. I'm going to start mulling now over what the specifics should be... And yes, eehamburg, I heard that Australia had a huge problem with rabbits when they were first brought over - and it was only 24 of them! I'm sure the locals that were affected by the rabit infestitation would have been happy to take violent action against whoever thought of bringing them over in the first place, at least in retrospect.
Burningspear 11-08-07, 07:03 PM	Vadalis is using magic. On nature. Next door to the Ashbound. These points alone are enough to infuriate the Ashbound into action. What difference is a druid using his magic to Awaken a animal or plant from Vadalis magebreeding? i fail to see this as if done by druids then magic on nature is alllowed, and if done my mages then its sacrilege, that is HYPOCRISY in my opinion.
Revvecor 11-08-07, 07:17 PM	What difference is a druid using his magic to Awaken a animal or plant from Vadalis magebreeding? i fail to see this as if done by druids then magic on nature is alllowed, and if done my mages then its sacrilege, that is HYPOCRISY in my opinion. I believe the Ashbound view Arcane Magic as bad, and Divine magic as good. In short it is the source of magic that is at issue with their tenets.
Burningspear 11-08-07, 08:50 PM	I believe the Ashbound view Arcane Magic as bad, and Divine magic as good. In short it is the source of magic that is at issue with their tenets. Sure, i am not blaming you personally, but that imo is still Hypocrisy.. :smirk:
naturax 11-09-07, 09:07 AM	What difference is a druid using his magic to Awaken a animal or plant from Vadalis magebreeding? i fail to see this as if done by druids then magic on nature is alllowed, and if done my mages then its sacrilege, that is HYPOCRISY in my opinion. It has to do with intent. Vadalis is creating slaves by magebreeding animals: slaves to track, slaves to do labour, slaves to eat. The Ashbound won't ever awaken a plant or animal for malicious reasons (though some PC might). The Ashbound extend that idea to say that all arcane magic enables civilization to function and therefore exploit the natural world, while their druidic magic lets them live in harmony with Eberron. Lots of people are going to disagree with that idea, of course, and that's one of the themes I want to play with in this campaign.
Fharghanar 11-09-07, 03:33 PM	I like the screwing up the ecosystem thread. Perhaps the PCs succeed in thwarting the plan nearly completely, but one of the MacGuffins is released/escapes/smuggled, leaving the PCs to participate in a country wide game of hide and go seek, using their skills and their house connections to prevent disaster. Think of all the movies in which a group doing genetic engineering causes a problem. Maybe they create a monster, ruin the ecosystem, unleash a disease or disease carrier. Heh, Umbrella Corporation anyone?
naturax 11-09-07, 03:50 PM	I like the screwing up the ecosystem thread. Perhaps the PCs succeed in thwarting the plan nearly completely, but one of the MacGuffins is released/escapes/smuggled, leaving the PCs to participate in a country wide game of hide and go seek, using their skills and their house connections to prevent disaster. Think of all the movies in which a group doing genetic engineering causes a problem. Maybe they create a monster, ruin the ecosystem, unleash a disease or disease carrier. Heh, Umbrella Corporation anyone? That's a great idea! The Ashbound attacked to kill off a certain strain of whatever Vadalis was cooking up, but one escaped and for whatever reason, the Ashbound want the PCs to find it. Maybe because it was the only one that was sold and it's in the middle of a city somewhere, but if it ever gets released to the wild... Thanks!
iserith 11-09-07, 05:17 PM	Nice thread... I'll be stickying this one for future reference. Once my current campaign ends, I'm going to run one where the PCs are all shifters in Eldeen Reaches and members of a hrazak team. Secretly, they are all part of these kind of eco-terrorist groups, attacking arcane magic wherever possible. I hope to parallel real life in some ways - I have found that this adds so much realism to a fantasy campaign if you do it subtly enough.
naturax 11-09-07, 05:26 PM	Nice thread... I'll be stickying this one for future reference. Once my current campaign ends, I'm going to run one where the PCs are all shifters in Eldeen Reaches and members of a hrazak team. Secretly, they are all part of these kind of eco-terrorist groups, attacking arcane magic wherever possible. I hope to parallel real life in some ways - I have found that this adds so much realism to a fantasy campaign if you do it subtly enough. That's exactly what I'm going for, and one of my PCs is even a hrazak champion! Which ideas from this thread are you going to be using? I'm trying to brainstorm as much as possible.
iserith 11-09-07, 06:00 PM	Well, I've run two Eberron campaigns so far. The first was mostly a Xen'drik campaign (Indiana Jonesesque). The current one is all about Sharn and Breland (political thriller). The Eldeen Reaches campaign I have in mind will be more traditional wilderness adventure - shifters, fey, druids, etc. (I've never really ran a serious game in this kind of genre). As I build one campaign on top of the ones previous, it'll be about the year 1015 or so which comes with a few changes I won't bore you with. Suffice it to say, I have highlighted some of House Vadalis's more sinister sides in my last campaigns. In Xen'drik, the PCs fought a House Vadalis scion who had been turned into a yuan'ti pureblood - and kept her dragonmark. According to the PCs' drow allies, the house was performing experiments to mix the bloodlines. In the current campaign, a couple of the PCs' enemies are House Vadalis as well, though I don't play up their sinister side very much. So already, my players kind of don't like House Vadalis, so it's an easier sell for me in the next campaign, when I plan to make House Vadalis a primary enemy for my eco-terrorist PCs. I plan to make them sort of mad scientists - not all are inclined to be evil, but they are often unaware of the consequences of their experimentation. They could be working with the daelkyr as another poster noted or using foul magic imported from the Demon Wastes to create perversions of nature to sell to other nations for use in the next war. They could be promoting farming and husbandry techniques that are very efficient and profitable, but extremely deleterious to water supplies. You could make the PCs connected to the Faerie Court - and the faeries are well upset with the actions of mortals... and it just so happens Thelanis is coterminous this year. The possibilities are endless, really. The key thing is to make sure your PCs are on the same page with their motivations. I would recommend taking a look at the more disgusting parts of our present-day agricultural processes to create a sense of pathos, but I understand if you don't want to get too "gross" as you said.
Nerdicus 11-10-07, 07:36 PM	I have it in all my eberron games where there is a branch of teh Vadalis family that has always bred war mounts, war dogs and various other creatures for attacking others. Since the last war the House has tried to stop this sort of thing from openly going on, but the one branch is still hard at it. For your game you could take it a bit farther and have it where this family is into releasing these magebred war animals into the wild where they have been wreaking havoc.
Rechan 11-10-07, 07:57 PM	I have it in all my eberron games where there is a branch of teh Vadalis family that has always bred war mounts, war dogs and various other creatures for attacking others. Since the last war the House has tried to stop this sort of thing from openly going on, but the one branch is still hard at it. One natural market that Vandalis can corner is "Guard Animals". Handling animals, magical beasts et al as magical guards.
naturax 11-10-07, 09:11 PM	One natural market that Vandalis can corner is "Guard Animals". Handling animals, magical beasts et al as magical guards. That's really important: I want to make sure that whatever they're working on makes sense from their point of view, instead of just being a convenient evil project that makes my plot go. I looked up "genetic engineering" on wikipedia and it linked to "chimera" in reality - when scientists mix genes from two different animals together. Now obviously this is a staple of D&D (owlbear, hippogriff, etc.) so I'm wondering if maybe the secret project that they are working on is just some monster out of the MM that would wreak havoc if released into the wild (not unlike Nerdicus' suggestion). So maybe you have some ideas for an animal that would mess up the ecosystem of the Reaches? I guess some sort of predator that would eat too many of a particular animal? I'm having trouble picturing a specific creature to work with.
Revvecor 11-10-07, 09:27 PM	So maybe you have some ideas for an animal that would mess up the ecosystem of the Reaches? I guess some sort of predator that would eat too many of a particular animal? I'm having trouble picturing a specific creature to work with. It would probably work better for the Children of Winter, but breeding incests with high Intelligence would be disastrous to animal life, as well as sentient creatures that live within relative proximity to the new lifeforms.
Rechan 11-11-07, 12:23 PM	So maybe you have some ideas for an animal that would mess up the ecosystem of the Reaches? I guess some sort of predator that would eat too many of a particular animal? I'm having trouble picturing a specific creature to work with. Doesn't have to be a predator. The rabbits in australia is a great example of "Benign little prey species that just has no natural predators breeding and eating too much". There was a park in the 20s that offered rewards for wolf and cougar bodies, because they wanted to protect the deer in the park. Well, hunters killed the predators. And the deer population skyrocketed. The excess deer ate all the food, and the deer population then fell as so many starved to death. Imagine Vandalis creating a "more interesting" species for rich hunters to hunt. A deer with a chameleon skin. Or a dimensional door ability (like a blink dog). This would make them "More interesting" to hunt. But it would also make them capable of fully alluding mundane predators. If they got into the normal deer population, then the magical quirk could breed true; in a few generations most of the deer could dodge predators, and the numbers keep growing. They'll keep eating the food.
JohnBiles 11-11-07, 04:08 PM	Most people haven't noticed it, but right now in the real world, there is a major crisis in the bee-keeping community. We are basically dependent on bees to pollinate 80% of all flowering plants--such as fruits, most vegetables, etc. However, over the last year, many regions have suffered a huge bee-dying-off known as Colony Collapse Disorder. The result is a drop of the bee population by 50-90% in various parts of the world. Now, imagine if House Valdalis creates a predator which hunts insects, designed to keep stinging insects, mosquitos, etc, away from people's homes by eating them. Then imagine what happens if it gets loose in a giant forest and starts killing bees. With no bees, the flowering plants die, there goes many of the crops of the farmers and food stuff for insects and animal alike. Total disaster. A good reason for the Ashbound to go crazy on Valdalis.
naturax 11-11-07, 05:18 PM	Imagine Vandalis creating a "more interesting" species for rich hunters to hunt. A deer with a chameleon skin. Or a dimensional door ability (like a blink dog). This would make them "More interesting" to hunt. But it would also make them capable of fully alluding mundane predators. If they got into the normal deer population, then the magical quirk could breed true; in a few generations most of the deer could dodge predators, and the numbers keep growing. They'll keep eating the food. That's awesome! I really like the way that it incorporates fantasy elements (so that it doesn't seem too much like the real world) and it's something that the PCs could be sent to track down. I really like the ideas this thread is generating! Now, imagine if House Valdalis creates a predator which hunts insects, designed to keep stinging insects, mosquitos, etc, away from people's homes by eating them. Then imagine what happens if it gets loose in a giant forest and starts killing bees. With no bees, the flowering plants die, there goes many of the crops of the farmers and food stuff for insects and animal alike. This would work really well too, only instead of a single member of the species to hunt down, they have to find a box of these bug-eating bats or whatever and make sure it doesn't break open. Did you have any particular animal in mind?
Nerdicus 11-11-07, 07:22 PM	If you want to go beyond House Vadalis, you could bring House Lyrandar into the picture in regards to their weather controlling magic that they do. Like, maybe the weather controlling they are doing in Aundair is beginning to have ill effects on the Reaches, and the Ashbound intend to do something about it. This could be for something further down the road perhaps, once the House Vadalis problem is dealt with, and you want to take the group out of the Reaches.
naturax 11-11-07, 09:05 PM	If you want to go beyond House Vadalis, you could bring House Lyrandar into the picture in regards to their weather controlling magic that they do. Like, maybe the weather controlling they are doing in Aundair is beginning to have ill effects on the Reaches, and the Ashbound intend to do something about it. This could be for something further down the road perhaps, once the House Vadalis problem is dealt with, and you want to take the group out of the Reaches. It's funny that you mention that, because I was just reading about House Lyrandar and having the Ashbound abhor their weather control would work really well too. Definitely something I'm going to use later and I thank you for mentioning it.
Yakman 11-11-07, 10:14 PM	It's funny that you mention that, because I was just reading about House Lyrandar and having the Ashbound abhor their weather control would work really well too. Definitely something I'm going to use later and I thank you for mentioning it.might be a good campaign base--Ashbound v. Dmarked Houses.
Rechan 11-11-07, 11:21 PM	might be a good campaign base--Ashbound v. Dmarked Houses. If the Ashbound extend into the Shadow Marches, I imagine they might have issues with House Tharashk just tearing up the land to mine Dragonshards. Or a shard mine could be discovered in the Eldeen. Cannith building "Warforged Farming Equipment", some kind of low-sentient harvester/planter/tree shredder could likewise irk them. Or just flat out Warforged Loggers/farmers. This is more the Child of Winter's territory: The CoW having an issue with Jorasco just wantonly throwing around "Remove Disease". Not on plague victims, but just stopping sickness from culling the old and the infirmed. T
naturax 11-12-07, 09:17 AM	If the Ashbound extend into the Shadow Marches, I imagine they might have issues with House Tharashk just tearing up the land to mine Dragonshards. Or a shard mine could be discovered in the Eldeen. Cannith building "Warforged Farming Equipment", some kind of low-sentient harvester/planter/tree shredder could likewise irk them. Or just flat out Warforged Loggers/farmers. This is more the Child of Winter's territory: The CoW having an issue with Jorasco just wantonly throwing around "Remove Disease". Not on plague victims, but just stopping sickness from culling the old and the infirmed. T That's also excellent! It's good to know I have a lot of long-term directions I can take the campaign in. In the short term though, I need to figure out what I'm going to do exactly for my next session. I'm leaning heavily towards: "Ashbound needed to destroy this particular magebred species that Dalin's brother was going to bring back with him to Aundair after his visit, and they were successful except for one individual/breedingpair that the PCs need to track down". Any ideas on what details to use there?
ChaoticGood 11-12-07, 08:09 PM	I actually rather liked your immediate response to the "insect-eating" animals: bee-eating bats. You could make this interesting by assuming that, once they are in the wild, they begin to grow larger than they would have under normal farming circumstances. Start out with a normal bat swarm or two that the group must hunt down. Up the ante a bit by giving the bats tough hides that make them resistant to insect stings (DR5/bludgeoning). This shouldn't be much of a problem since you're dealing with druids and monks, who tend to use bludgeoning weapons anyway. When they finish off the swarms, assume a few of them get away or were never found. (Normal bats are pretty small and can hide in places humanoids can't even reach.) Insert a small side-quest, another mission related to Varna or something like that. When they've finished with that, they can encounter monstrous centipedes or spiders terrorizing nearby hamlets and logging camps. What's causing them to crawl out from under the nearby mountain? Dire bats, descended from the same bee-resistant stock, have moved into the caves beneath the mountain. And if their level is high enough to warrant it, perhaps the bats have begun to mutate. You could mix in a horrid bat or two as a "boss encounter" for this phase of the adventure. That's what I've got for you tonight. If you decide to use some other creature instead, let us know and maybe we can pull together some ideas for whatever other creature you want it to be.
naturax 11-12-07, 10:09 PM	I actually rather liked your immediate response to the "insect-eating" animals: bee-eating bats. You could make this interesting by assuming that, once they are in the wild, they begin to grow larger than they would have under normal farming circumstances. Start out with a normal bat swarm or two that the group must hunt down. Up the ante a bit by giving the bats tough hides that make them resistant to insect stings (DR5/bludgeoning). This shouldn't be much of a problem since you're dealing with druids and monks, who tend to use bludgeoning weapons anyway. When they finish off the swarms, assume a few of them get away or were never found. (Normal bats are pretty small and can hide in places humanoids can't even reach.) Insert a small side-quest, another mission related to Varna or something like that. When they've finished with that, they can encounter monstrous centipedes or spiders terrorizing nearby hamlets and logging camps. What's causing them to crawl out from under the nearby mountain? Dire bats, descended from the same bee-resistant stock, have moved into the caves beneath the mountain. And if their level is high enough to warrant it, perhaps the bats have begun to mutate. You could mix in a horrid bat or two as a "boss encounter" for this phase of the adventure. That's what I've got for you tonight. If you decide to use some other creature instead, let us know and maybe we can pull together some ideas for whatever other creature you want it to be. I really appreciate you taking the time to follow up on this thread and give me your suggestions. I think the bat thing would work, but there's one big question: why don't the Ashbound druids take care of it? That's why my idea, and I probably haven't voiced this yet but I've been thinking it the whole time, is that the PCs do something the Ashbound on the whole can't: they can operate within Vadalis. They live in the city. They can travel without arousing suspicion. The Ashbound druids have dominion over the wilds but they can't penetrate civilization. So I wanted the "one that got away" to be shipped off somewhere or in storage or somewhere where Ashbound druids can't just use cool nature magic to make the problem go away. That way the PCs a) have a reason to be used and b) get to feel cool for doing something the big powerful druids can't. Yeah, sure, if the PCs were all druids we'd find ways for them to infiltrate with their wild shape and whatnot, but I don't need to complicate things that much. What I'm going for is story and theme over mechanics, therefore I'd like to actually keep the PCs out of the wilderness for now. Does that give you any other ideas? I'm not trying to quash suggestions but instead see what this direction makes you think of. Thanks again for your help!
Vharuck 11-13-07, 01:01 PM	During WWII, American scientists created a "bat bomb." It was a large cylinder with honeycombed layers, and each cell had a sedated bat in it. When dropped, gravity stretched the segmented cylinder so that the bats could slide out of their cells (it was timed so that they regained consciousness quickly enough to fly). The bomb part was that each bat had a fiery explosive attached to it. The bats would fly down into the city over which they were dropped and work their way into the open windows and attics. The explosives detonated, and the buildings burned. It was amazingly effective. Vadalis may be doing such a thing, which, from an Ashbound's point of view, is terrible.
naturax 11-13-07, 01:15 PM	During WWII, American scientists created a "bat bomb." It was a large cylinder with honeycombed layers, and each cell had a sedated bat in it. When dropped, gravity stretched the segmented cylinder so that the bats could slide out of their cells (it was timed so that they regained consciousness quickly enough to fly). The bomb part was that each bat had a fiery explosive attached to it. The bats would fly down into the city over which they were dropped and work their way into the open windows and attics. The explosives detonated, and the buildings burned. It was amazingly effective. Vadalis may be doing such a thing, which, from an Ashbound's point of view, is terrible. Wow! You weren't kidding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_bomb)! That gives me a neat idea: what if Vadalis simply building any-Ashbound technology? Like animals that are trained to be friendly to humanoids (maybe even just shifters) and infect them with magical disease or something. I'm not sure how I would execute this plan, but I think I would have to go in that direction because I don't see there being a big market for weapons in Khorvaire in 998 YK.
ChaoticGood 11-15-07, 01:36 AM	So I wanted the "one that got away" to be shipped off somewhere or in storage or somewhere where Ashbound druids can't just use cool nature magic to make the problem go away. That way the PCs a) have a reason to be used and b) get to feel cool for doing something the big powerful druids can't. Oooh, good call. Hmm... I'll have to think about that. The thing that springs to mind immediately is the slake moths in China Mieville's novel Perdido Street Station. I don't see there being a big market for weapons in Khorvaire in 998 YK. Just because the Last War is over, don't think the Five Nations have laid down their arms. Aundair and Karrnath, especially, are already gearing up for the Next War. Perhaps Varna is being used to test "biological weapons" - seemingly harmless animals that, under certain conditions, become incredibly dangerous. Using the bat-bomb example, let's say that they figured out a way to make normal bats turn into firebats (MM2) on certain dates when Fernia is coterminous. It would be simple to release a flock of such bats from an Aundairan airship passing over Thrane. The Aundairans could launch a surprise attack on the same night that the bats "explode," taking advantage of the chaos and confusion as ordinary Thranes are forced to choose between fighting for their homeland and saving their homes from the mysterious rash of fires and explosions. Another possibility is that Vadalis is trying to isolate and replicate the cause of lycanthropy in order to purposefully infect the elite soldiers of an interested nation. No soldier would think twice about a herd of wild pigs snuffling its way across the border in the middle of the night. By the time these wereboars are forced back into human form at dawn, they can be miles behind enemy lines. Sorry that these ideas aren't as readily-usable as my other ones, but I think they would both make interesting "secret weapons projects" for Vadalis to work towards on behalf of one of the Five Nations.
Rechan 11-15-07, 04:49 AM	'm not sure how I would execute this plan, but I think I would have to go in that direction because I don't see there being a big market for weapons in Khorvaire in 998 YK. The Aurum. A Droaam/Breland war. A war against Draguun. Vandalis could simply be testing or developing WMDs in case such a situation arises, or because some private government or entity wants it developed, to be kept in storage "Just In Case". Aundair is an easy client. They're magical focused. Which means that 1) they don't have the might of physical arms, and 2) eliminating the enemy's spellcasters would allow Aundair to dominate the field. So perhaps the WMD either targets enemy spellcasters (it's a straight up fort-save disease, and since mages have sucky fort, bam, ded), or it's a magical disease meant to weaken men at arms. Or it's an anti-clerical/divine magic disease. Thrane has too many paladins and clerics on hand, and Aundair, hating Thrane's guts, wants an ace in the hole against Thranish templars. I could see Aundair using their WMD against Thrane if Thrane went after Karrnath. The Eldeen is a perfect testing ground: druids, the Eldeen deserted Aundair, etc.
naturax 11-20-07, 05:39 PM	Here's the plan: spider goats (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/889951.stm). That is, Vadalis has figured out how to get goats to produce spider silk, and they are going to start farming these things so that they can produce spider-silk armour, bags of holding, that sort of thing. The Ashbound found out and attacked, destroying their research facility and killing/recovering the specimens in Varna... except for the mating pair that was loaded (into a caravan) with the intent of going back to Aundair with Dalin's brother. The PCs need to recover the pair. What I need help with now is the actually nitty gritty of the session: how are the goats going to get transported to Aundair? What can the PCs do about it? Thanks!
Nerdicus 11-22-07, 07:50 PM	First off, nice usage of a real world concept! Have the goats in a herd of goats being moved on foot to the river that divides the two nations, then they take a ferry across to Aundair, and carry on on foot from there. THe trouble is, they are just two goats in a herd of 30-40 goats and they only way to tell them apart is through some secret Vadalis way. Have the herd being escorted by several Vadalis trainers and guards, plus some magebred dogs.
naturax 11-22-07, 09:42 PM	First off, nice usage of a real world concept! Have the goats in a herd of goats being moved on foot to the river that divides the two nations, then they take a ferry across to Aundair, and carry on on foot from there. THe trouble is, they are just two goats in a herd of 30-40 goats and they only way to tell them apart is through some secret Vadalis way. Have the herd being escorted by several Vadalis trainers and guards, plus some magebred dogs. That's an interesting way to go. This is what I came up at work today and I'd like to know what you think: Sasik d'Vadalis and his Aundarian envoy arrived in Varna on the evening of the attacks, so he fled with his bodyguards immediately fearing a kidnapping attempt. The rest of his envoy is gathering the stuff Sasik was going to collect from his brother, Dalin d'Vadalis, including a breeding pair of the goats as a gift. The Ashbound managed to kill/collect the rest of the spider goats, but they want the PCs to follow the envoy and make sure the goats don't arrive in Aundair (which is probably only a few days away). I'm thinking a caravan of a few guards, a bunch of stuff, some magebred animals, that sort of thing. A complication could be that bandits attack the caravan just before/after the PCs arrive, hopefully causing the goats to run off into the woods where they need to be found. I'm aiming for short-term adventures for now that leave the PCs using Varna as a base of operation, since I have a large pool of players and only a few show up every game, leaving me in a situation where whoever shows up can play any given session. Now, if Vadalis wants to secretly distribute these goats to Aundair and other countries, hiding a couple among a herd of goats is definitely the way to go. Maybe you can expand more on what you were suggesting with regards to what the encounters for the PCs would be like?
Zedaki 11-23-07, 09:06 AM	The Ashbound are a fanatic organisation so not only overtly dangerous things (like bee-eating bats) will annoy them but so will other more mundane activities. Breeding minature animals for color. Imagine my little pony in flouresent colors, for real. Mixing animal traits in a patently non-useful way. Ducks that bark. Horses that can sing like larks. On the more dangerous stuff... anyone here remember the bunny rabbit from Monty Python and the Holy Grail? Hunting dogs bred to attack elves in a ravening frenzy on smelling them. More subtle things are possible. Horses who produce dung that is sweet smelling, but beetles won't go near it so it never decays properly and it poisons plants. Get a bunch of rich nobles in on that fad and we'll see how the streets of your city look like in six months...
Nerdicus 11-23-07, 11:13 AM	First off, I think that you should have the herd being led by some Vadalis handlers and some Orien guards. THe two houses often work together, so it makes sense that they would be doing so here. This gives you another house to draw from for trouble, and plus it broadens the scope of the PCs enemies. THe encounter should be very straight forward. Focus on there being 4-5 fighter ranger types working as guards from House Orien, some handlers from Vadalis, which would equate to NPCs with adept levels and expert levels focusing on animal handling, and maybe one druid. Add to that some magebred guard dogs and you have a serious group for your players to deal with. Set the encounter up so that your players can deal with the Vadalis and Orien dudes how they best see fit. Maybe they want to bum rush them at night fall, or pick them off slowly over a few days, slowly whittling them down until there is a only afew left to be dealt with at the end. Or maybe they want to create a distraction and simply secret the goats away without anyone noticing. No matter how they want to do it, all you need are the stats for the guards, handlers and guards dogs, plus maybe a few stat blocks for summoned animals. After it is all done, depending on the PCs deal with everything, they may have made some new enemies.
naturax 11-24-07, 11:56 AM	First off, I think that you should have the herd being led by some Vadalis handlers and some Orien guards. THe two houses often work together, so it makes sense that they would be doing so here. This gives you another house to draw from for trouble, and plus it broadens the scope of the PCs enemies. THe encounter should be very straight forward. Focus on there being 4-5 fighter ranger types working as guards from House Orien, some handlers from Vadalis, which would equate to NPCs with adept levels and expert levels focusing on animal handling, and maybe one druid. Add to that some magebred guard dogs and you have a serious group for your players to deal with. Set the encounter up so that your players can deal with the Vadalis and Orien dudes how they best see fit. Maybe they want to bum rush them at night fall, or pick them off slowly over a few days, slowly whittling them down until there is a only afew left to be dealt with at the end. Or maybe they want to create a distraction and simply secret the goats away without anyone noticing. No matter how they want to do it, all you need are the stats for the guards, handlers and guards dogs, plus maybe a few stat blocks for summoned animals. After it is all done, depending on the PCs deal with everything, they may have made some new enemies. Great idea, thanks!
naturax 11-24-07, 11:57 AM	The Ashbound are a fanatic organisation so not only overtly dangerous things (like bee-eating bats) will annoy them but so will other more mundane activities. Breeding minature animals for color. Imagine my little pony in flouresent colors, for real. Mixing animal traits in a patently non-useful way. Ducks that bark. Horses that can sing like larks. On the more dangerous stuff... anyone here remember the bunny rabbit from Monty Python and the Holy Grail? Hunting dogs bred to attack elves in a ravening frenzy on smelling them. More subtle things are possible. Horses who produce dung that is sweet smelling, but beetles won't go near it so it never decays properly and it poisons plants. Get a bunch of rich nobles in on that fad and we'll see how the streets of your city look like in six months... These are great ideas! Thanks!
naturax 11-26-07, 07:43 AM	So I ended up going with a breeding pair the spider goats which were in the prince's convoy which headed back a day later than he did (the druids caused a brutal rain to hit Varna for a day after the attacks and the prince fled on pegasus-back right away). The encounter was them ambushing the wagon a few hours out of Varna, which was only guarded by two 3rd level "phantom knights", since the PCs had 12 hours to prepare. So it was way too easy for 5 3rd-level characters, and they got the goats back to the Ashbound. The consequences are that there's going to be an investigation as to who was behind the attack, and a couple of the PCs were likely identified by the knights, who were dealt non-lethal damage, tied up, and stuck in the wagon. Though the PCs went on the mission and believed that stopping a breeding pair of the goats from getting to Aundair was important, I don't think I did a good just of convincing them that it was SUPER IMPORTANT AND WORTH KILLING FOR. So I was kinda disappointed that the point of the mission, which seemed important to me, didn't actually work out that way when I ran it. I think the next session should involve a Tharashk inquisitive who Vadalis hires to get into Varna and tie up their loose ends, so the PCs can deal with that however they see fit - but that requires an attention to detail that I probably have to do a lot of preparation for. There's a lot of fallout from every game that I can use for the next one, but it's starting to get exhausting to try to remember every detail of what every NPC remembers when they encounter them.
Belkar 11-28-07, 09:20 AM	I think the "Australian Rabbit" example leads to a perfect scenario for what you want. According to your posts, you want Vadalis to maintain a "good" example and action. Breeding animals for the express purpose of being hunted by nobles seems a wee bit out of character for this Vadalis. It needs to be something benign. Something they thought would help. And a foreign animal aggressively introduced into the ecosystem would fit the bill... Picture this: A traveler from Xen'Drik brings a crate of strange arboreal creatures (the locals call them X'olitchiltis - or whatever) from the far continent. They are tiny mammals that are pleasant tempered, easy to train, and are insectivores. Voracious instectivores. Vadalis buys them from the traveler, and starts exploring the new species... they discover that this gentle creature, when placed on an animal (such as a mage-bred workhorse) will carefully circumnavigate its body and consume all forms of lice, fleas, ticks, and other insect parasites in a matter of minutes. This leaves the now happy animal clean, and the tiny creature fed. So House Vadalis breed the small things, and uses them as portable grooming kits for their animals. Few people know about them. Now picture this: a few years have passed, and the Eldeen reaches are suffering from an epidemic infestation of blood-gut beetles (a parasitic blood-drinker that attaches to mammals, reptiles, and birds to feed - and has a nasty habit of leaving a horrible infection when it leaves). Animals are suffering. A young, enterprising, and good-hearted Vadalis handler suggests to Vadalis leadership that a controlled release of these Xen'Drik critters used to clean horses into the Eldeen forrests could save the wildlife and eradicate the infestation. Vadalis readily agrees. No one (not even Vadalis) knows that the little things worked soooo well, that they moved onto the rest of the native insect-life of the forest, and began breeding at an astounding rate. The resulting loss of so much insect live has created a food-chain crisis of epic proportions within the forrest, and the Ashbound are at the front-lines of it. This is what prompts their attack on Vadalis.
eehamburg 11-28-07, 11:42 AM	I think the "Australian Rabbit" example leads to a perfect scenario for what you want. According to your posts, you want Vadalis to maintain a "good" example and action. Breeding animals for the express purpose of being hunted by nobles seems a wee bit out of character for this Vadalis. It needs to be something benign. Something they thought would help. And a foreign animal aggressively introduced into the ecosystem would fit the bill... Picture this: A traveler from Xen'Drik brings a crate of strange arboreal creatures (the locals call them X'olitchiltis - or whatever) from the far continent. They are tiny mammals that are pleasant tempered, easy to train, and are insectivores. Voracious instectivores. Vadalis buys them from the traveler, and starts exploring the new species... they discover that this gentle creature, when placed on an animal (such as a mage-bred workhorse) will carefully circumnavigate its body and consume all forms of lice, fleas, ticks, and other insect parasites in a matter of minutes. This leaves the now happy animal clean, and the tiny creature fed. So House Vadalis breed the small things, and uses them as portable grooming kits for their animals. Few people know about them. Now picture this: a few years have passed, and the Eldeen reaches are suffering from an epidemic infestation of blood-gut beetles (a parasitic blood-drinker that attaches to mammals, reptiles, and birds to feed - and has a nasty habit of leaving a horrible infection when it leaves). Animals are suffering. A young, enterprising, and good-hearted Vadalis handler suggests to Vadalis leadership that a controlled release of these Xen'Drik critters used to clean horses into the Eldeen forrests could save the wildlife and eradicate the infestation. Vadalis readily agrees. No one (not even Vadalis) knows that the little things worked soooo well, that they moved onto the rest of the native insect-life of the forest, and began breeding at an astounding rate. The resulting loss of so much insect live has created a food-chain crisis of epic proportions within the forrest, and the Ashbound are at the front-lines of it. This is what prompts their attack on Vadalis. This idea is amazing and exactly what I meant when I posted about the rabbits.
naturax 11-28-07, 12:44 PM	No one (not even Vadalis) knows that the little things worked soooo well, that they moved onto the rest of the native insect-life of the forest, and began breeding at an astounding rate. The resulting loss of so much insect live has created a food-chain crisis of epic proportions within the forrest, and the Ashbound are at the front-lines of it. This is what prompts their attack on Vadalis. I wish you had posted this a week ago! But it's not too late to save my campaign. Thanks!