Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Yanomahir 08-24-07, 12:35 AM	I am starting an Eberron campaign fairly soon and was hoping to get just a bit of help here. My group is basically new to Eberron, and each player has done a good job creating characters which have an Eberron flavor. The character that I'm focusing on is the gnome artificer. Essentially, as a hook, he wanted to come up with a new, innovative way of elemental binding. As a 1st level character, he won't really be allowed to do anything with it; think of a professor who figured out how to do something in an easier way but doesn't yet have the tools. This character has been on the run for a while, and is always looking over his shoulder. So, as a summary, Zilargo could be a mite upset that a cheaper and easier way to bind has been found, as they have a vested interest in the process remaining quite expensive and difficult. My questions are these: Would the Trust operate outside of Zilargo? Would Zilargo hire an assassin from Thuranni, or would a bounty hunter from Tharashk make more sense? What houses/organizations/nations have I overlooked as interested parties? Basically, are there some other Eberron-centric ideas that I'm not utilizing? Thanks for any help that y'all give, and be gentle to a first-time poster. ;)
Revvecor 08-24-07, 12:51 AM	Given their effective monopoly on mass production of equipment and their limited control of elemental binding and airship technology; House Cannith could be a major ally for your character as they seek to gain some of their former glory lost during the last war(the mourning). Another thing to consider is that the greatest elemental binders are in Xen'Drik. This means that your characters best chances of finding tools to help him in his plans is to meet with Drow and Giants and hope to get the information you want and live to develop the technology further.
Splendide 08-24-07, 01:53 AM	I can't see anyone wanting to kill the gnome...well, not yet. First thing that will happen, Cannith or an independent craftsman's guild (in my campaigns the major one is East Bank Dining Club of Trolanport) will want to find him. Then they'll want to recruit him. He's only in danger of dying if someone convinces one of these parties that he's actually been swayed to the opposition. Random people he shares his ideas with may be in trouble too - or not random, depending on how sophisticated the recruiting process is. Anyone he talks to may be a recruiter. As for if the Trust would operate outside of Zilargo, sure. He's a gnome, he's affecting the livelihood of gnomes, he's their jurisdiction. An assassin or bounty hunter is a later option...unless you rule that gnomes are really good at extracting crafting techniques from dead men. If not, at this point they'll probably want to plant a friendly face into his every day life, kindly advising him of `smart' moves...not a face actively associated with any of these organizations. Maybe a follower, or barkeep, or the young kid who wants to be an adventurer and is begging to travel with the party. Basically you have a wonderful opportunity to make him think that anyone in the party (or the world!) could be a plant trying to steal his secrets. Ho ho ho :)
Revvecor 08-24-07, 02:00 AM	What I meant by the character potentially dieing was more in relation to surviving encounters with drow and giants in the vast wilderness of Xen'Drik.
Yanomahir 08-24-07, 11:53 AM	Another thing to consider is that the greatest elemental binders are in Xen'Drik. This means that your characters best chances of finding tools to help him in his plans is to meet with Drow and Giants and hope to get the information you want and live to develop the technology further. I've actually ran a Xen'drik campaign before, and was planning on this campaign being fairly more Khorvaire-based. But I really like the idea of going to Xen'drik to connect with the Sulatar and their binding techniques. Well, a stop-off in Xen'drik may be in order. And how much fun could an Eberron campaign possibly be without a giant/drow/pcs-stuck-in-the-middle fight? ;) If not, at this point they'll probably want to plant a friendly face into his every day life, kindly advising him of `smart' moves...not a face actively associated with any of these organizations. Maybe a follower, or barkeep, or the young kid who wants to be an adventurer and is begging to travel with the party. Basically you have a wonderful opportunity to make him think that anyone in the party (or the world!) could be a plant trying to steal his secrets. Ho ho ho :) Oh, that is truly sinister. He is already paranoid, but this really ups the ante. I can't help but give an evil laugh at this idea; in his situation, he needs help from anyone who offers, but can't trust any of them as far as he can throw them. Oh, and thanks for the Cannith suggestion, certainly that makes sense for them to be interested, I'll add them to the list.
nyysjan 08-24-07, 11:46 PM	Would the Trust operate outside of Zilargo? yes, Trust operate where they want to operate (and where they think they need to operate in need of taking care of their duties) Would Zilargo hire an assassin from Thuranni, or would a bounty hunter from Tharashk make more sense? no and no (i don't see the Trust outsourcing its assassinations, individual enterpreneurs in Zilargo might though). What houses/organizations/nations have I overlooked as interested parties? Everyone Basically, are there some other Eberron-centric ideas that I'm not utilizing? yes )and yes, i know i'm unhelpfull :P )
OctaviusIII 08-25-07, 05:59 AM	You forget about House Orien! They're quite jealous of the fact that Sivis has a monopoly on binding and airships - travel's their business, dangit, not a scribe's! Orien would be extraordinarily pleased to have him. Then there's House Lyrandar, also big on travel, and they already operate a fleet of elemental ships. Being able to control costs within their own organization would be incredibly useful. That gnome needs a hat of disguise or he's going to be kidnapped by someone, and soon. I also don't think nations would be too interested in monopolizing the technology, although Arcanix and the Twelve would both be interested for academic reasons - they might even publish the findings and make elemental binding "open-source," so to speak.
Yanomahir 08-25-07, 02:19 PM	Everyone yes )and yes, i know i'm unhelpfull :P ) Nyysjan, you're a terrible, terrible person. ;) But thank you. You've convinced me to let the Trust take a very active role. Then there's House Lyrandar, also big on travel, and they already operate a fleet of elemental ships. Being able to control costs within their own organization would be incredibly useful. That gnome needs a hat of disguise or he's going to be kidnapped by someone, and soon. I like the Lyrandar idea. It'll let half-elves share the stage; I think they're actually usuable and interesting in eberron. I think I'm gonna mention the hat of disguise quite casually to the player in question. Also, instead of his name, perhaps I should refer to him as Dr. Kimble from now on. Thanks OctaviusIII. So a new quandary: it appears that there are too many groups that could be interested. I say too many because I don't have time to include all of these different groups and give face time to all the other players. (they have quite interesting eberron stories as well) So, from your standpoint, which one House would be most intriguing to have on his tail? I'm liking Lyrandar, in addition to the obligatory Trust, but the others are juicy too.
OctaviusIII 08-25-07, 03:05 PM	Well, what's the gnome's goal? Simply to make a proof-of-concept model, or is he going to actively seek a patron? If it's the latter, you can have a good-guys/bad-guys thing going, but make sure he doesn't trust either one. Narrow the interested parties to three: Sivis, a rival House, and an arcane research group, like Arcanix or the Twelve. Everyone else just hasn't caught wind of it, or they aren't interested in peeving House Sivis.
Hellcow 08-26-07, 02:50 AM	Splendide's pretty much covered what I'd say. But just to add my voice, yes, the Trust does operate outside Zilargo, and no, they wouldn't need to outsource their assassinations; if you check Sharn: City of Towers, the most dangerous assassin in the city is a Trust agent. I'd agree that they'd prefer to bring him back into the fold as opposed to kill him; if he's really come up with a better technique, they'd prefer to have him working for the good of the nation instead of losing the knowledge completely. Assassination would come if it was clear that he was about to cause a major upset in the balance of power, and other options had been exhausted. So I'd agree with Splendide's idea of placing people in his life for future activation. And bear in mind, these don't have to all be agents of the Trust. The Trust is the enforcement arm that protects the interests of Zilargo. But this character would also be dealing with the gnome families that dominate the binding trade, each of which would want him working not just for Zilargo, but for their family. There's also the question of HIS family. Is it in the binding trade, in which case he's running out on the family business? If it isn't, then he could be the lynchpin of an alliance between his family and a Binder family that would bring great prosperity to his relatives... which could be yet another source of pressure. Regarding the Dragonmarked houses, an important point to consider is that it's very dangerous for Orien, Lyrandar, or Cannith to risk offending the Zil binders. Right now they have an established, stable relationship that works. They KNOW the Trust has deadly assassins, and they know if they set up an operation that's a true threat, the Trust will attempt to destroy it and then use economic tools to punish them; what does Lyrandar do if Zilargo suddenly refuses to bind more elementals for them, while cutting its rates for Orien? So if the houses DO decide to take such a move, the odds are that they'd want it to be VERY secret and as secure as possible - hiding the gnome away in the most scry-proof, assassin-proof box they can find. You'd end up with a situation sort of like "New Rose Motel" by William Gibson, where the gnome is treated as a commodity as opposed to an individual; I doubt it would be a great life, aside from the pure satisfaction of completing your work. As such, if I were the gnome, I'd try to avoid declaring allegiance to anyone. As long as you're just working on your theory, the Trust has no reason to come after you; after all, you might come back to Zilargo if you get it working. If you don't offer your services to a house, they aren't likely to lock you away in the deepest vault of the most secure forgehold. If you're a freelancer exploring ideas - but not yet threatening the status quo in any way - then you may have various forces planting agents in your path, but they shouldn't try to harm you.
Yanomahir 08-26-07, 08:27 PM	These responses are based on having talked to the player a bit more about his philosophies on his homeland, as well as his theories of binding. These ideas he holds are not publicy available; he's smart enough to keep them to himself. Well, what's the gnome's goal? Simply to make a proof-of-concept model, or is he going to actively seek a patron? I spoke with the player in question, and he understands the consequences and benefits of allegiances. He is looking to share this information with others. In fact, he has a dangerous, though altruistic, belief that no one power should have a monopoly on binding. I'd agree that they'd prefer to bring him back into the fold as opposed to kill him; if he's really come up with a better technique, they'd prefer to have him working for the good of the nation instead of losing the knowledge completely. Assassination would come if it was clear that he was about to cause a major upset in the balance of power, and other options had been exhausted. His ultimate goal is to prove his theory with an airship, and then do his best to provide competition in the market for elemental binding. He's definitely not a Zilargo patriot. In fact, he has strong opinions on Zilargo's influence regarding Brelish international relations. These opinions sour the good things that come from a strong Zilargo. In fact, he wouldn't mind to see Zilargo's power drop a peg or two. He thinks that although the Trust was likely once important, they violate common liberties that should be available to all people. He's actually spent most of his life in Breland, though his homeland is Zilargo. Family is tough, as he has no ties in Zilargo, other than a few friends he studied with before going off to higher learning. He hasn't returned since. From the standpoint of a strongly libertarian/revolutionary PC, how could I make the choice to weaken Zilargo ethically difficult for him? He is frightened of authoritarianism, so that might help...
Hellcow 08-26-07, 11:24 PM	In fact, he has a dangerous, though altruistic, belief that no one power should have a monopoly on binding. The biggest danger to him is that this isn't how Eberron is set up. ALL of the Houses are monopolies, and they aim to keep things that way. House Lyrandar won't say "You're right, let's help you make this great technique available to everyone!" - they'll want to lock him away and keep it out of the hands of House Orien. So the problem is that he's a nice guy in world that's not very nice at all. He may have the idea - but all the forces that have the power to enact his idea on a large scale don't share his altruistic vision. Look to Nicolai Tesla, the recent travails of the electric car, and all of that; he may have a better idea, but if enough powers are arrayed against him it won't matter. Another issue is that Orien and Lyrandar don't want to open things to the masses; they may want to break their dependence on Zilargo (assuming they aren't afraid of retailiation themselves), but they'll both want to maintain their own monopolies. As I see it, the first question you need to answer is what is this story? Any campaign is a story. Player characters are remarkable people and should be able to do remarkable things. So what's the best-case scenario you see at the end of the road? Do you want him to be able to break up the Trust, shatter the millenial monopolies of the Dragonmarked houses and generally change the economic and political landscape of Khorvaire? Or do you want this to be a story about one man struggling his best to do the right thing in a world that doesn't share his ideals - a world that puts gold before justice? Eberron (IMO) generally leans towards the latter approach. As noted in Chapter Nine, stories don't always end well... and the houses are powerful, amoral forces. But if you want him to be able to succeed, it should be possible; the challenge is figuring out how he could possibly do it. As noted, you're dealing with a society which specializes in eliminating threats, and jealous houses with international influence. What he has going for him is that these forces WILL want him alive if they want his goods. But I think being kidnapped by Lyrandar and taken to a deep secret work center ("for his own safety", of course) and having to somehow escape would help to show that people on the other side of the binding fence aren't much nicer than Zilargo (and if he's planning to create airships that ANYONE can use, then Lyrandar will REALLY be out to get him). Honestly, I think the best idea I've heard is going to Xen'drik and setting up operations there. He's off the radar, and there are many secrets of elemental binding to be found in the shattered land. The Sulatar drow are unlikely to share their knowledge with an outsider, but negotiations with them would certainly be colorful... and there could certainly be interesting conflicts as the hero seeks to recover ancient giant schema from territories held by the Sulatar. And again, PCs are remarkable; if he COULD form an alliance with the Sulatar, that would give him a powerful ally in the future. Otherwise, he can work with forces in Stormreach to get what he needs, and have all manner of wild adventures in Xen'drik building up experience. When he's ready and has his prototype, he can return to Khorvaire... at which point the question becomes which of his allies are actually plants, who they're plants for, how he can avoid assassins from all the sides he turns against, if he can find a powerful ally that will help him bring his prototype to market, and so on. One last point on this: Bear in mind that Zilargo's monopoly isn't solely based on the process of binding the elemental. If that was the case, you would have had airships the same year you had elemental galleons and lightning rails. Instead, it took almost two centuries to get from the LR to the airship, and that's with war to drive innovation. Obviously it would take far less time to reverse-engineer than to start from scratch, and one can assume that the relevant houses have already been working on this. But the reason Zilargo has the influence it does in the field isn't just because of the binding process; they also have the shipwrights and shipyards that actually produce the vessels, who understand the aerodynamics of soarwood, the composition of the elemental ring and the distance and diameter required to ensure lift while preventing the ring from harming the vessel. So just handing a complete unknown force - neither house nor Zil - a better binder doesn't instantly break the airship monopoly, because they'll need to learn to make the ships (and for that matter to get sufficient quantities of soarwood... which, since it mainly comes from Aerenal, is another place you may run into old alliances). Really, what he needs to do is reform Galifar and get the king to institute a good antitrust force. He thinks that although the Trust was likely once important, they violate common liberties that should be available to all people... how could I make the choice to weaken Zilargo ethically difficult for him? Long response here, and hey, people may disagree with me, so I'll sblock it. Just to make clear. The Trust does "violate" common liberties. No question. However, the reason I say "violate" is because the Zil chose to give them this power. The Zil know exactly what the Trust is capable of. They believe that agents of the Trust could be watching them at absolutely any moment, and that a Trust assassin could kill them and toss the body into a bag of holding the instant they are deemed a threat to Zilargo. But this doesn't frighten them, and that's the key. Taking the whole "People shouldn't be afraid of their government..." quote, the point is that the Zil aren't afraid of the Trust; they truly believe that it has their best interests at heart. They have willingly given up these personal liberties in exchange for a society without crime and without fear - a society in which they believe that anyone who means them harm will be removed by the Trust. They truly believe that the Trust doesn't go after innocents. Perhaps that's naive. It's obviously difficult for us to imagine such a thing - a government with such power that doesn't abuse it. The key point is that they aren't human. They aren't us. This isn't about the government illegally wiretapping its people without telling them; it's about a society that's said "Go ahead, wiretap away." Aside from the fact that it's just a completely different outlook (and admittedly somewhat optimistic) on things, it's also important to look at the world that they live in. This is a world that is populated by hidden demons, aberrations, quori mind seeds, etc, etc - all forces that have a harder time in Zilargo than anywhere else in Khorvaire, precisely because of the powers granted to the Trust. Beyond this, you have a nation that lacks the military force of any of the Five Nations but has managed to avoid war and hold its own in part because of this national unity - and if anyone did conquer Zilargo by force, the pre-existing hidden network of the Trust would make a hell of an insurgency. So the key is that the people of Zilargo actually trust the Trust. They don't fear their government; they believe that their civilization is superior to any other on Eberron. Even those gnomes who DO have a conflict of interest with the Trust enjoy the challenge of trying to outwit this invisible enemy; again, the Trust isn't omniscient, and they are willing to overlook things that don't actually harm Zilargo. For example, they wouldn't interfere in intrigues between the Binder families to see who could convince your player to join; either way, his gifts profit Zilargo. They won't interfere with him engaging in intrigues to build his own Binder family... in Zilargo. Of course, this assumes that the families aren't actually permanently damaging one another, but the point is that the gnomes know what they can get away with. Blackmail, bribery, and manipulation are fine; plotting to burn down the rival family's shipyards will bring down the Trust. Anyhow, the Trust probably will sound terrifying to a Brelishman (or, for that matter, many Americans) - because they don't trust their government to hold such power. The Zil, however, do. So if the player goes against that, he's trying to force personal liberties on people who don't want them, people who believe in the Trust (which is, after all, a network of gnomes from all walks of life) and are happy with the world they live in. As far as they're concerned, the Trust is Zilargo. Not that I'd expect a gnome from Breland to understand that. ;)
Yanomahir 08-27-07, 12:31 AM	The biggest danger to him is that this isn't how Eberron is set up. ALL of the Houses are monopolies, and they aim to keep things that way. I love Eberron, but this Gnome doesn't; he sees the system as quite unfair. The question is how much he's willing to compromise once he realizes that he can't turn the world upside-down to his liking. As I see it, the first question you need to answer is what is this story? Any campaign is a story. Player characters are remarkable people and should be able to do remarkable things. So what's the best-case scenario you see at the end of the road? It's hard for me to say exactly how I see the story playing out. That being said, the way I see Eberron (and why my friends and I truly love it) is as a place with shades of gray, where things don't always end perfectly. I see the Trust keeping an eye on his research until it is a success. At that point, they would be happy to offer him an outcome which fulfills one part of his ideals, perhaps freeing a dissident in exchange for his loyalty. This would be a very difficult choice for him, and I'm not at all sure how he'd react. What I do know is that he's aware of the power he's facing. My interpretation of Eberron won't actually allow him to upset the structure currently in place, and his story might end tragically. It wouldn't be the first tragic character to come out of our Eberron gaming, and my players wouldn't have it any other way. So just handing a complete unknown force - neither house nor Zil - a better binder doesn't instantly break the airship monopoly, because they'll need to learn to make the ships (and for that matter to get sufficient quantities of soarwood... which, since it mainly comes from Aerenal, is another place you may run into old alliances). Ah yes, I actually was going to run a soarwood smuggling adventure at some point. But anyway, this makes sense. Thank you for this, it'll make it a bit easier to illustrate why he can't change the entire world overnight. Long response here, and hey, people may disagree with me, so I'll sblock it. Damn. I can see a Trust gnome giving a monologue quite similar to that. With your permission, of course. ;)
Hellcow 08-27-07, 12:47 AM	My interpretation of Eberron won't actually allow him to upset the structure currently in place, and his story might end tragically. It wouldn't be the first tragic character to come out of our Eberron gaming, and my players wouldn't have it any other way. It's what I'd do in my campaign. I love a tragic hero. Damn. I can see a Trust gnome giving a monologue quite similar to that. With your permission, of course. ;) Of course. Glad to hear it wasn't wasted effort, since I ought to be writing my novel. ;)
Yanomahir 08-27-07, 11:35 PM	It's what I'd do in my campaign. I love a tragic hero. I'm quite glad to hear that. Although I have my own opinions about some of the plots of Eberron, at the end of the day, I want to remain faithful to the setting and the tone you've given. As for a conclusion, I'll be happy to let everyone know the results of our gnome's decisions in a couple of months. Of course, by then, everyone will have forgotten, and will just think I'm crazy. I think that's just fine. :D
Splendide 08-28-07, 01:17 AM	Of course. Glad to hear it wasn't wasted effort, since I ought to be writing my novel. ;)Can that be in a novel? Please?? Just back on the question of `who would be the most interesting party to covet the character's knowledge', I would say House Tharashk. They've already half-orcishly got in the face of Deneith re: mercenaries, which shows an enormous amount of willing to mix things up to get a better position among the dragonmarked houses. Why not add a little elemental binding and destabilise the big guns at Cannith, Lyrandar and Orien all in one go? And if those three are already fighting, then making sure the gnome continues to evade their clutches sounds like good business for the opportunist House Tharashk. They may even be in favour of paying for and releasing the techniques, in return for the design and production of some elemental-bound boring tools! SO if you're looking for a dubious white knight in a scenario where things went a bit further than you expected, Tharashk.
taski 09-02-07, 11:14 PM	Can that be in a novel? Please?? I don't read a lot of D&D novels (or any for that matter), but the Trust could get me to do it. :incog: