Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cavienn 08-04-07, 09:32 PM	I'm starting an Eberron campaign this fall, and I've been collecting almost all of the Eberron books, but I haven't had a chance to read everything yet (though I'm working on it, making copious notes as I go). So I'm wondering--has it been revealed yet, in any sourcebook, novel, or other official source (including the mouth of Keith Baker) what caused the Day of Mourning? I'm not looking for someone to tell me what the answer is, and spoil it for other people, just where I could find it if it has been revealed already. Thanks!
Rerecros 08-04-07, 09:59 PM	There is no official answer, nor will there ever be one, it's completely up to you.
Edymnion 08-04-07, 11:05 PM	I'm starting an Eberron campaign this fall, and I've been collecting almost all of the Eberron books, but I haven't had a chance to read everything yet (though I'm working on it, making copious notes as I go). So I'm wondering--has it been revealed yet, in any sourcebook, novel, or other official source (including the mouth of Keith Baker) what caused the Day of Mourning? I'm not looking for someone to tell me what the answer is, and spoil it for other people, just where I could find it if it has been revealed already. Thanks!No, they have not said what caused the mourning. To the contrary, they have said that they will NEVER say what caused it. Which is a good thing. Its nice to actually have a setting with some mystery in it.
Cavienn 08-04-07, 11:12 PM	Oh, awesome! Ok, cool, thanks a lot!
Burningspear 08-05-07, 12:58 AM	Its nice to actually have a setting with some mystery in it. I do not think it very positive to think that just this tidbit of "mystery" will make Eberron tower above all other settings in its mysterious parts, there is plenty mystery out there in all the other settings, and the way you downplay that is disheartening to me.. :pbbbtt: :rant: :yuck: :ahem: :lop: :emp: .... :tie:
TiwazTyrsfist 08-05-07, 03:14 PM	The thing is, stuff only stays a mystery for less than a year most of the time in other settings. Then, one of the authors writes a novel that explains it and it becomes cannon. The cause of the mourning has been a mystery since the game came out, and continues to be so. The settings original designer encourages players to come up with different causes between campaigns. That is to say, Just because your party of 20th level adventurers discovered that the mourning was caused by an attempt by house cannith to harness the power of a rakshasa lord burried under metrol, DOES NOT MEAN that next Eberron campaign you play, that is still the cause. Your new party may eventually discover that the Mourning was actually the direct (albiet delayed due to the complex nature of things) result of exterminating the mark of death, changing the draconic prophecy. Removing the mark of death caused a hole in the prophecy, which is actually shaping the world, and at the exact point in time, reality had the equivilant of a Div/0 error for the nation of Cyre. That's what's great about Eberron.
Bluebrush 08-05-07, 05:51 PM	One thing KB did mention in a message board post is that just because the official sourcebooks will never reveal the cause doesn't mean it's a secret that will never be discovered within the world itself. Which is to say it's not nescessarily exhaustively obscured from investigation. Though if does come out, the truth may shake Galifar even more than the mourning itself did. *Ominous Sunshine*
TheKeyofE 08-05-07, 06:35 PM	Off topic, but just looking at Burningspear's smileys...there's a Lady of Pain smiley, why isn't there a Lord of Blades smiley? He's popular enough to warrant one. ...for that matter, wouldn't the LoB and LoP make a good couple?
Edymnion 08-05-07, 09:18 PM	I do not think it very positive to think that just this tidbit of "mystery" will make Eberron tower above all other settings in its mysterious parts, there is plenty mystery out there in all the other settings, and the way you downplay that is disheartening to me.. :pbbbtt: :rant: :yuck: :ahem: :lop: :emp: .... :tie:Can you think of anything in Faerun that completely changed the world, that the entire setting basically marks as a turning point in history, that was unknown when the setting was made, and is still unknown today? Other settings have mysteries, but they don't have setting shaking events that nobody has the slightest clue as to why or even how they occured.
Burningspear 08-05-07, 09:28 PM	Can you think of anything in Faerun that completely changed the world, that the entire setting basically marks as a turning point in history, that was unknown when the setting was made, and is still unknown today? Other settings have mysteries, but they don't have setting shaking events that nobody has the slightest clue as to why or even how they occured. To me it was not the fact that you might be right or wrong, but more the fact that you were dissing out on other settings, which one of them happens to be one that i like very much. If you make such statements, don't dis out on other settings, but bring to the fore why you think Ebberon is "better", that way other people wont feel offended by your remarks. and besides that, Dark Sun is another with such events, that no one can explain, the Cerulean storm... :pbbbtt: :smirk:
DBlizzard 08-06-07, 08:00 AM	Other settings have mysteries, but they don't have setting shaking events that nobody has the slightest clue as to why or even how they occured. Glorantha does and has for a long time, but it's not a D&D setting. Dragonnewt's Dream, Rise of the Red Moon, battle between Arkat and Gbaji (where there are conflicting views as to who survived). Glorantha is all about the mysteries and cultures having different views of events. (Well, it might be inaccurate. A lot of people "know" the answers to these mysteries, but they completely disagree.)
Edymnion 08-06-07, 08:32 AM	To me it was not the fact that you might be right or wrong, but more the fact that you were dissing out on other settings, which one of them happens to be one that i like very much. If you make such statements, don't dis out on other settings, but bring to the fore why you think Ebberon is "better", that way other people wont feel offended by your remarks.Lol, hi, you must be new. I'm Edymnion, I don't care if people are offended by my opinions on a subject or not. :) The other major D&D settings do not have great mysteries. They are so caught up with novels being canon (I'm looking at you, Faerun), that they have to keep up with every greedy little author's attempt to cash in by writing a book that explains the mystery that there's just nothing left to discover on your own that you don't make up for yourself in the first place. Eberron doesn't do that. Novels aren't canon, and they've said they intentionally won't explain things like the Mourning, leaving them officially mysteries forever. Thats one of the things that I like most about the setting, that it doesn't spoon feed you everything. It gives you a great framework to build your game from, but doesn't detail the entire history of every last little blasted city, event, and person, leaving the DM and the players free to explore their own version of the setting. Thats just not something you can really do in "other settings" (*cough*faerun*cough*) because they've been around for 20+ years and had a bajillion novels detailing everything. That just plain sucks. I enjoy the fact I can look at the map of Khovaire, point to a city at random, and the odds being that there isn't more than a paragraph to describe them, if that.
TheKeyofE 08-06-07, 08:37 AM	Lol, hi, you must be new. I'm Edymnion, I don't care if people are offended by my opinions on a subject or not. :) Edy is what we in the business call an "***hole." But for some reason, we love him anyway. :P But I agree with him on this point. Having every little thing spelled out and canonized is one of the things I hated about FR when I played it, and not having everything spelled out is one of the things that makes me love Eb so much. If I wanted everything determined beforehand, I would go play a Final Fantasy game, not D&D.
Cavienn 08-06-07, 10:09 PM	Novels aren't canon, Seriously? Do you have a quote for that? Cuz that's awesome.
Edymnion 08-06-07, 10:27 PM	Seriously? Do you have a quote for that? Cuz that's awesome.No, but its been said repeatedly by the higher ups here on the boards. Novels are not canon. Nothing you ever read in any Eberron novel will ever be part of the game setting (by default). Some elements of certain novels may creep in (like several NPCs mentioned in the newer books first appeared in Keith's Eberron novels), but their plots and events are not setting canon. The books can explain the Mourning, blow up Sharn, and have Vol come back to life to be a pole dancer in Metrol, and it won't affect the game setting in any shape, form, or fashion. This was done precisely because it is what ruined Faerun. Almost all of the things people don't like about the Forgotten Realms (to high of a level, everything is mapped out already, etc) can be laid at the feet of the novels, and the settings decree that they were canon. Since each book followed the same characters, who advanced in levels, they had to pull out bigger and bigger stuff to keep them sufficiently challenged, which meant the setting itself became higher and higher leveled. But anyway, novels are not setting canon in Eberron. Hence, novels are free to tackle any mystery they want without spoiling the mystery in game. Which, even for the novels is a good thing, IMO, because it means the author can do whatever they feel needs to be done for that book, and not worry about it's larger repercussions, since they will never have to be dealt with beyond that one book (unless they do a sequal).
LoneStranger 08-07-07, 01:24 AM	That is kinda nice that they won't be cheesing the Eberron timeline with potentially goofy explanations like what caused the Day of Mourning: "We've found out it was a Kobold that accidentally broke off a widget on a Creation Forge that was made portable and it overloaded" Or some such garbage like that. Anyway it's not just that I like about Eberron. It's also the fact that this is the first setting that I know of where you have a race that no one is entirely sure what to do with (Warforged) as well as the information about the Last War and the fact that some people are still spoiling for round 2. The lack of high-level, massively uber cracked out characters as main NPCs for the setting is also nice.
Hellcow 08-07-07, 04:36 AM	(like several NPCs mentioned in the newer books first appeared in Keith's Eberron novels...) If you mean characters like Hassalac and Shira, certainly. As you say, they are NPCs, and if you use Shira at all you're in fact establishing that the events of The Shattered Land haven't happened in your version of the world. But I have no intention of making the heroes of the story part of Eberron canon; if anyone gets Shira, it should be YOUR heroes. Likewise, Hassalac is a character who appears in both novels and sourcebooks, but his presence doesn't make the novels canon; if you use him, there's nothing that requires that he's ever met Daine. As far as I know, the only hero character whose exploits have been recorded in a sourcebook are James Wyatt's hero from Claws of the Tiger, who's mentioned in Forge of War's description of the Ramathene Sword. Lei and Pierce get to appear in a piece of artwork, but that wasn't intented to make them part of canon Eberron; I don't intend to put stats for them in a sourcebook or anything like that. I want my novels to reflect adventures you could have in Eberron, if you wanted; but the key is that YOU should be able to have those adventures. Thus, I will mention "NPCs", because YOU should be able to interact with those NPCs. But I won't mention the heroes... because at the end of the day, they're part of my campaign. (Not that you were arguing this... but I just wanted to clarify the NPC vs. Hero thing.)
TiwazTyrsfist 08-07-07, 11:35 AM	Blah, blah, blah... They are so caught up with novels being canon (I'm looking at you, Faerun), that they have to ... Blah, blah, blah... Faerun nothing... Let's look at Dragon Lance for a second, Eh? Man, now THERE was a severe case of Novels doing things that can only be discussed on the mature board to a game setting. What, your a cleric? Your a 20th level cleric? Say, Did you read novel that came out last week? Yeah, your a 20th level commoner. No, you can't cast spells now. No, you can't turn undead. Yes, your god is gone again. [Nelson Voice]HAA-Haa![/Nelson Voice] But yeah, Faerun has that problem too, just not as bad as Dragonlance.
The_Gimp 08-07-07, 11:38 AM	Well that's just what charmed me about the Eberron Setting, the fact that nothing in the novel is going to spoil any campaigns that I might run or play in. I love FG for it's stories and all, but I just finished reading The Dreaming Dark trilogy and it got me hooked to this world like crack, I want more!!! PS for Keith...: Please, don't stop novels abruptly like you do with a 10 pages ending... You bastard WE WANNA KNOW THE REST! ;) Cheers!
DBlizzard 08-07-07, 02:01 PM	No, but its been said repeatedly by the higher ups here on the boards. Keith has stated several times recently that isn't necessarily the case, such as here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=13227004&highlight=canon#post13227004). The relevant quote being: I've seen a number of posts on boards stating that in Eberron, the novels "aren't canon" - as if WotC has made some sort of official statement to this effect. I don't know if that's actually true.
Hellcow 08-07-07, 02:02 PM	PS for Keith...: Please, don't stop novels abruptly like you do with a 10 pages ending... You bastard WE WANNA KNOW THE REST! ;) Cheers! Don't worry, I'll get to the answers in time. And one of the lessons I have learned is "DON'T END A TRILOGY ON AN ENORMOUS CLIFFHANGER!" With that said, I think it is possible to figure out what's going on at the end of the book (I've seen some people post the right answer) - it's just something that's set in motion all the way back in City of Towers. Anyhow, I'm glad you enjoyed it. I'm doing a seminar/chat on it at GenCon, should you happen to be there.
Hellcow 08-07-07, 02:08 PM	Keith has stated several times recently that isn't necessarily the case... Well, what I've said is that I don't think *I've* ever heard anyone like Bill Slaviscek (R&D director) or Phil Athans (Novel director) actually say it. It's my oft-stated preference, and when I write things (like Shira in SoX), I write them accordingly. But if someone does know of a place where someone actually employed by WotC has said this, I'd really like to know. I hope it's the case, but I don't know if it is. WITH THAT SAID - I can say that as a freelance author, WotC has never required me or any of my coworkers to read the novel or told me "You can't do that, it contradicts The Orb of Xoriat." So at the least, I'd argue that they aren't particularly trying to cling to novels. All I'm saying is that I don't think they've promised NEVER to do it... hence Forge of War referencing James' hero, though only in a minor role.
DBlizzard 08-07-07, 02:28 PM	Don't worry, I'll get to the answers in time. And one of the lessons I have learned is "DON'T END A TRILOGY ON AN ENORMOUS CLIFFHANGER!" At least, don't do so unless you have your sequel in the works. I've seen that work. Of course, my personal preference is to find a modern fantasy author who can write a deep, compelling story and not need to fit it in 3-30 books as well ;) I like a series, but they have taken over fantasy too much (and it's probably RPGs fault). Well, what I've said is that I don't think *I've* ever heard anyone like Bill Slaviscek (R&D director) or Phil Athans (Novel director) actually say it. Thus the "necessarily." :)
Cavienn 08-07-07, 02:45 PM	Awesome, thanks for all the information--and thanks for your thoughts, Keith! I'm starting an 8-player Eberron campaign soon, and I am so psyched about it that I've bought almost every Eberron supplement out there--four of them in the last month. And I've forbidden my players from reading most of it. <evil cackle> Oh, if they only knew the secrets of Vol... (In other words, thanks Keith for such an awesome, awesome campaign world.)
Edymnion 08-07-07, 06:39 PM	If you mean characters like Hassalac and Shira, certainly.If Hassalac is the innkeeper in Stormholm, then yeah, thats one I was thinking of. Lei and Pierce showing up in the artwork was a nice nod, IMO.
Hellcow 08-07-07, 07:15 PM	At least, don't do so unless you have your sequel in the works. I've seen that work. I had the next arc plotted out while I was writing TDD, but it's going to be a little while before it gets resolved. I do want to write a few more contained things; as a fan of The Maltese Falcon, I agree that you don't always need ten books to tell a good story.
Renvale999 08-09-07, 10:00 AM	As much as I hope they don't, I honestly don't see WOTC holding back the sercret of the Mournlands forever. If enough people gripe and moan about it(not saying anybody on these boards, although I've just recently defected from the FR boards shhhh don't tell them, so I don't know you guys all that well..), they are eventually going to reveal it if they believe it will make them money. But, to their credit, WOTC has never statted the Lady of the Pain, and they said they never will. We'll see I guess.
Elliot22 08-09-07, 05:29 PM	As much as I hope they don't, I honestly don't see WOTC holding back the sercret of the Mournlands forever. If enough people gripe and moan about it(not saying anybody on these boards, although I've just recently defected from the FR boards shhhh don't tell them, so I don't know you guys all that well..), they are eventually going to reveal it if they believe it will make them money. But, to their credit, WOTC has never statted the Lady of the Pain, and they said they never will. We'll see I guess. From what I can tell, right now, they are making more money by NOT saying why the mourning happened, as everyone else has said by not saying it, it adds mystery and intrigue to the game. I hope they never do only because I have so many theories of why it could have happened, that I don't want them to crush them by saying it was something I have never thought of. And who is to say the moruning wasn't caused by more that one happening? Oh and Edymnion, can I borrow/steal that line to made about Vol in Metrol? that was great!!!
Edymnion 08-10-07, 08:29 AM	Oh and Edymnion, can I borrow/steal that line to made about Vol in Metrol? that was great!!!Sure, if (multi)thousand year old half dragon strippers are your thing, go for it. ;)
Elliot22 08-10-07, 08:59 AM	Sure, if (multi)thousand year old half dragon strippers are your thing, go for it. ;) Half-Dragons.. maybe, but not multi thousand year old strippers (for more reasons than you know) I just liked the quote, so unexpected, and planned out.. (Even if it wasn't) and are we talking current Metrol or before Mourning Metrol?
Edymnion 08-10-07, 01:10 PM	Half-Dragons.. maybe, but not multi thousand year old strippers (for more reasons than you know) I just liked the quote, so unexpected, and planned out.. (Even if it wasn't) and are we talking current Metrol or before Mourning Metrol?Metrol after a novel turns the Mournlands into a giant amusement park like the one from Final Fantasy 7.
TheKeyofE 08-10-07, 08:30 PM	Oh, god...as soon as I read that, the gold saucer music started playing in my head.
Edymnion 08-10-07, 10:53 PM	Oh, god...as soon as I read that, the gold saucer music started playing in my head.Yup. Soon you will have images of a fat white chocobo prancing through your dreams. You cannot escape it. The only way out is to go on a date with a large hairy black man. Face your destiny! ;)
Tolly7249 08-11-07, 12:20 AM	XD Gods, now I have the urge to go find my copy of Dragon where they had the stats for Chocobos. I'm gonna miss that magazine...
Dr. Benway 08-11-07, 07:10 PM	I do not think it very positive to think that just this tidbit of "mystery" will make Eberron tower above all other settings in its mysterious parts, there is plenty mystery out there in all the other settings, and the way you downplay that is disheartening to me.. :pbbbtt: :rant: :yuck: :ahem: :lop: :emp: .... :tie: I couldnt agree more with you, sentiment for sentiment. DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail?