Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sir Elton 07-25-07, 09:13 AM	I was thinking about how big Stormholme is. The reason is, I'd like Stormholme not to be massively developed. I was thinking that it might be as big as Hong Kong Island (about 50 to 70 sq. mi.). Now, in my campaign, I'm setting up Stormholme to be a mixed bag of Hong Kong now and the movie Casablanca. A place where ex-pats and refugees from the Five Nations would go to escape the War. The Last War affects everything, since the campaign takes place in the years just before the Mourning. However, I don't want the island to be overly developed, so I think some wilderness is needed on the island. If it is sufficiently large enough, like Hong Kong Island; there would be places where Kalashtar and Human Monk PCs can go to get a little meditation done. So, is it the size of Hong Kong Island, or the size of the Big Island of Hawaii (which is larger, I believe, than Hong Kong Island)?
Warforged_Pierce 07-28-07, 03:48 PM	well here is the wotc artistic rendering of stormhome i dont think its all that big probably a lot less than 40 sq mi even but you can take a look and decide for yourself what you think needs to be done. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/Dragonmarked_Gallery/101319.jpg
OctaviusIII 07-28-07, 04:44 PM	I imagine a combination Male (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mal%C3%A9%2C_Maldives), Santorini (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santorini), Sark (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sark), Guernsey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guernsey), and Singapore. So medieval, mostly self-sufficient, rocky, highly built and totally unnatural. What this would mean is that it wouldn't be totally built-up but it would be totally used, and what is built-up would be very dense.
Sir Elton 07-29-07, 01:01 AM	well here is the wotc artistic rendering of stormhome i dont think its all that big probably a lot less than 40 sq mi even but you can take a look and decide for yourself what you think needs to be done. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/Dragonmarked_Gallery/101319.jpg Hmmm . . . 50 miles E-W, 10 miles N-S. That's 500 square miles; it's about twice as big as the Salt Lake Valley. The Artist Rendition makes it smaller than the Salt Lake Valley. While Aundair itself is 500 Square miles E-W, and 1,100 sq. mi N-S. That's roughly 500 thousand sq. mi.
yrogerg 07-29-07, 08:11 AM	Hmmm . . . 50 miles E-W, 10 miles N-S. That's 500 square miles; it's about twice as big as the Salt Lake Valley. The Artist Rendition makes it smaller than the Salt Lake Valley. While Aundair itself is 500 Square miles E-W, and 1,100 sq. mi N-S. That's roughly 500 thousand sq. mi. At the same time, since that makes travel times unreasonable, many players (and Keith, as well) consider the listed distances to be off by a factor of 10. The end result is, any nation, island, etc, is really about as big as you want it to be for your own purposes, as long as the relative sizes and positions mostly match.
Sir Elton 07-29-07, 08:35 AM	Well, considering how big Eberron actually is (abt. the size of Mars) compared to Earth (which is one tenth the size it actually was*); the Land to Sea ratio is off. Eberron is abt the size of North America, maybe a little bigger; E-W. According to the map in the book. It took a wagon train abt. six months to travel from Far West, Missouri to Sacramento, California back in the days of the 1849 Gold Rush, if they made good time. So, I don't see anything wrong with keeping Eberron the size of Mars. If you cut that by a factor of ten -- This makes Khorvaire the size of Europe. 2,500 miles becomes 250 miles. Eberron is no longer the size of Mars, if that's all there is on the map. * Astronomers are discovering Super-Earths that are 10 to 12 times as big as Earth is now. Apparently, these Super-Earths are "dead common," based on the frequency that they are being found. And Earth is actually 1/10th the size it actually was! Earth was originally approaching the size of Neptune; however in some time in the Distant Past, "the Earth was divided." If anything, Planet Eberron is grossly small. Where's the rest of him?
yrogerg 07-29-07, 08:55 AM	Maybe it's just, y'know, small?
Sir Elton 07-29-07, 09:57 AM	So Khyber has an Uranium core?
Edymnion 07-29-07, 12:59 PM	Eberron is abt the size of North America, maybe a little bigger; E-W.No, Khovaire is the size of North America, roughly the same width as the continental US. Look at the scale and measure it out. That still leaves a *LOT* of room for the rest of the world. Eberron as a whole may be smaller than the Earth, but thats not really a big deal.
Sir Elton 07-29-07, 02:35 PM	No, Khovaire is the size of North America, roughly the same width as the continental US. Look at the scale and measure it out. That still leaves a *LOT* of room for the rest of the world. Eberron as a whole may be smaller than the Earth, but thats not really a big deal. Well, it is to me. My Planet Eberron has a diameter of 7,926 miles, a circumference of 24,902 mi / 40,076 km at the equator. This equals Earth's size, and so there may be islands and small continents beyond the Known World (Khorvaire, Xen'drik, Argonessen, and Sarlona). My Planet Eberron has an iron core, and gravity roughly equal to 1g (about .98g, imperceptible to Earthlings). It is, of course, a Garden World; where water is capable at being at all four states at roughly the same time (lightning is plasma). So, yeah, dividing it by 10 isn't really cool for me; so I have Canniths and Oriens trying to break the 50 mile per hour speed barrier. Even if their test subjects need to wear rubber underpants. :)
Seghan 07-29-07, 10:37 PM	Posting support for the non divide by 10 crowd, or divide by anything for that matter. I totally get the unwieldy travel time issue, and it is a pain, but golly I just love those huge jungles and wide open spaces. Distance and travel are major parts of our games, so it is important to us.
yrogerg 07-29-07, 11:36 PM	Posting support for the non divide by 10 crowd, or divide by anything for that matter. I totally get the unwieldy travel time issue, and it is a pain, but golly I just love those huge jungles and wide open spaces. Distance and travel are major parts of our games, so it is important to us. It also leaves a Sharn that's *quite* sparsely populated, and a Kourvaire that's dangerously underpopulated for its size. Apparently, these don't matter for Simulation's sake, nearly as much as the composition of Eberron's core does.
yrogerg 07-29-07, 11:58 PM	Well, it is to me. My Planet Eberron has a diameter of 7,926 miles, a circumference of 24,902 mi / 40,076 km at the equator. This equals Earth's size, and so there may be islands and small continents beyond the Known World (Khorvaire, Xen'drik, Argonessen, and Sarlona). My Planet Eberron has an iron core, and gravity roughly equal to 1g (about .98g, imperceptible to Earthlings). It is, of course, a Garden World; where water is capable at being at all four states at roughly the same time (lightning is plasma). So, yeah, dividing it by 10 isn't really cool for me; so I have Canniths and Oriens trying to break the 50 mile per hour speed barrier. Even if their test subjects need to wear rubber underpants. :) But why does Eberron, an inherently magical world, need to have any qualities in common with Earth, at all? There's no particular reason why real-life geology or astronomy concepts would need to apply, at all, since we're not necessarily dealing with a solar system that operates in the same manner as ours. Kyber's core could be composed entirely of Kyber shards, a completely fictitious compound as it is. It's not like this should detract from simulationism in Eberron; part of what you're trying to simulate is life in an *inherently magical world*. Frankly, saying "this isn't how things work in real life! How can I make Eberron more like a real-life planet?" kinda detracts from what makes Eberron an interesting world in its own right. For example, you've complained before about the weather patterns in Eberron: did it ever occur to you that the planes, and manifest zones, might have an additional effect on weather patters that doesn't map onto any real-world phenomenon? Seems to me that the more interesting Simulationist approach to a setting isn't to make it the real world, but to treat it like a realisticly self-consistent world in its own right, if one that doesn't need to follow any of the trends or natural laws that govern our world. Also, lightning isn't made up of water in the plasma state, either on Earth or in Eberron.
Sir Elton 07-30-07, 12:52 AM	Lightning is plasma. Lightning can be either negative lightning or positive lightning; and generally when you are hit, your hit by at least seven bolts in a split second (each bolt has a color of the spectrum). By the way, why are you so resistant at the way I run my p-Eberron? Are you playing in my game? A DM has the right to change a Published world to fit how he likes. :D
Seghan 07-30-07, 06:35 AM	It also leaves a Sharn that's *quite* sparsely populated, and a Kourvaire that's dangerously underpopulated for its size. We've upped the population figs rather than shrink the geography. It opened up a bit of a can of worms refiguring the distributions of higher level characters, but since most of the added population was background noise, it wasn't that big of a deal. (That is to say, our Eberron has a slightly higher concentration of commoners and experts). Apparently, these don't matter for Simulation's sake, nearly as much as the composition of Eberron's core does. Much agreed. It has been explicitly stated that much of Eb's attributes are governed by magic and supernatural effects, especially in Xen'drik and Sarlona. I wouldn't bother trying to use the game as a geo-simulator to closely for this reason. Maybe Kingdoms of Kalamar would be better for that. Of course, if that is how you enjoy playing it, that's cool too. just my 2 crowns.
yrogerg 07-30-07, 07:46 AM	Lightning is plasma. Lightning can be either negative lightning or positive lightning; and generally when you are hit, your hit by at least seven bolts in a split second (each bolt has a color of the spectrum). 1) It's not plasma-state water. It's an electrical discharge that arcs from the raincloud to the ground, raincloud to raincloud, or ground to cloud. Most of what it's arcing through is air, not water. 2)Where the heck are you pulling that 'spectrum' stuff from? By the way, why are you so resistant at the way I run my p-Eberron? Are you playing in my game? A DM has the right to change a Published world to fit how he likes. Right, but here on the boards, it's perfectly fair to point out that trying to make a fictional, inherently magical setting identical to the real world, and complaining that the land-sea ratio isn't right, or that Eberron doesn't have an iron core, is bad simulationism, as completely it misses the point of attempting to simulate the experience of a person living in Eberron, rather than that of a person living on Earth with different names. Land-sea ratio not make sense? An Eberronian scholar would say it's that way because of a perfect balance between the elements. Wondering what Eberron's Core's made out of? It could be Kyber Shards, or it could be a pocket dimension. Heck, even gravity doesn't necessarily work the same way it does in our universe; instead of changing it to make it the same as the real world, why not come up with something that makes Eberron's world, with planes and classical elements and spontaneous generation and fictional supstances and manifest zones and magic, internally consistent?
yrogerg 07-30-07, 07:49 AM	We've upped the population figs rather than shrink the geography. It opened up a bit of a can of worms refiguring the distributions of higher level characters, but since most of the added population was background noise, it wasn't that big of a deal. (That is to say, our Eberron has a slightly higher concentration of commoners and experts). That's certainly a solution, though it certainly still raises some questions concerning the Last War.
AntiSean 07-30-07, 10:23 AM	Wondering what Eberron's Core's made out of? In my Eberron, the planet's core is as dense as Sir Elton.
Seghan 07-30-07, 06:16 PM	That's certainly a solution, though it certainly still raises some questions concerning the Last War. No. I'm right and you're wrong. :P jk Seriously though, we see it as there are a lot of commoners who filled out conscript units that never really developed into proper soldiers, and therefore lack more war specific classes. This would be particularly true during the waning years of the war, the part that much of the current population would have grown up through. They may have a weapon proficiency feat, or some stray combat oriented skill ranks floating around, but in general they just did hack and slash with their spears and glaives and whatnot, and tried to stay alive. And there are probably quite a few primary commoners, experts, and the like who carry a rank or maybe two in warrior from their experience, but still remain identifiably non combat NPC classes. I assume this answers the Last War questions to which you were referring. In any case, we run our games with some decisions, mostly on flavor, that may not suit everyone's tastes, and I'm always interested to hear constructive criticism.
yrogerg 07-30-07, 09:00 PM	No. I'm right and you're wrong. :P jk Seriously though, we see it as there are a lot of commoners who filled out conscript units that never really developed into proper soldiers, and therefore lack more war specific classes. This would be particularly true during the waning years of the war, the part that much of the current population would have grown up through. They may have a weapon proficiency feat, or some stray combat oriented skill ranks floating around, but in general they just did hack and slash with their spears and glaives and whatnot, and tried to stay alive. And there are probably quite a few primary commoners, experts, and the like who carry a rank or maybe two in warrior from their experience, but still remain identifiably non combat NPC classes. I assume this answers the Last War questions to which you were referring. In any case, we run our games with some decisions, mostly on flavor, that may not suit everyone's tastes, and I'm always interested to hear constructive criticism. Well, the particular issues I was thinking of were issues of troop movement, the effective rebellions that took place in places like Darguun, the Eldeen Reaches, and Valenar, and the fact that, during the war, each of the nations managed to make major inroads into each other. It stretches the imagination a bit if each nation is the size of the United States, and this was all true.
Seghan 07-31-07, 06:33 AM	Oh, I get that too. That was a common topic for discussion amongst us for a while. In the end, we just let our imaginations stretch. Maybe not everyone's cup of tea, but it works for us.
Sir Elton 07-31-07, 11:00 AM	In my Eberron, the planet's core is as dense as Sir Elton. Then there's no gravity. My body's density is .98. So, I can float in water, as long as I am naked anyway. :D
Ryoden_Anariavas 07-31-07, 03:06 PM	In my Eberron, the planet's core is as dense as Sir Elton. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Ryoden_Anariavas 07-31-07, 03:20 PM	Well, the particular issues I was thinking of were issues of troop movement, the effective rebellions that took place in places like Darguun, the Eldeen Reaches, and Valenar, and the fact that, during the war, each of the nations managed to make major inroads into each other. It stretches the imagination a bit if each nation is the size of the United States, and this was all true. Maybe I am not looking at the same map as you but the one I downloaded from WotC indicated that each nation was more closley compared to *shrug* Texas rathar than the whole US. I think it measured about 3600 from the mouth of Cresent Bay to the edge of Basura Swamp And checking google maps it is aparently 2905 miles to drive from NYC to SanFran Thats only 700 miles different
OctaviusIII 08-01-07, 12:39 AM	Well, according to the ECS and my own rough measurements: Khorvaire is approximately the area of North America, and the five nations (now) are approximately: Aundair = Northern Territory (in Australia) Breland = a bit larger than the EU Thrane = Peru Mournland = Sweden Karrnath = a bit larger than India For the full range of statistics, visit my thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=848129) (and read the instructions).
OctaviusIII 08-01-07, 02:01 AM	Oh, and in terms of Texases: Aundair = 2.1 Texases Breland = 6.9 Texases Thrane = 2 Texases Mournland = 0.7 Texases Karrnath = 5.2 Texases :D
Ryoden_Anariavas 08-01-07, 09:28 AM	Khorvaire is approximately the area of North America, and the five nations (now) are approximately: Aundair = Northern Territory (in Australia) Breland = a bit larger than the EU Thrane = Peru Mournland = Sweden Karrnath = a bit larger than India Thats all fine and good but I dont understand how it effects the world in a negative way? So an army needed to be on the march for a month before it could occupy any enemy territory. That kind of thing happened all the time in RW history. Ill also point out that the distances/travel times were cut shorter by the availability of magical aid. And the fact that WF and undead can move at twice to three times faster than human(oid) troops can
OctaviusIII 08-01-07, 01:57 PM	Oh - never said it did. Marching across the continent should take a while, and given that Khorvaire is larger than Europe there's pleanty of room for rebellions and the like. I just wanted to throw some data into the debate to head off an argument about how big Khorvaire *really* is. Regarding density, well, I'm all for multiplying it by a few times, probably to get the continent's density up around 8 to 12 per square mile, which is around 5 to 8 times the listed populations. As it stands, Khorvaire has a density of 1.6, which is roughly half that of Western Sahara, but greater than the Falkland Islands or Greenland.
yossarius 08-01-07, 04:05 PM	My estimation of Stormhome (going off the poster map) puts it at 56 miles at its widest, and 38 at its most narrow, for an estimated 1,600 sq mi. That's alot of room to play in.
OctaviusIII 08-01-07, 04:14 PM	My estimation of Stormhome (going off the poster map) puts it at 56 miles at its widest, and 38 at its most narrow, for an estimated 1,600 sq mi. That's alot of room to play in. That's pretty nice. Come to think of it, I would imagine that the weird weather would do strange things to the surrounding ocean and the fish stocks, possibly making the region great for the fishing villages that no doubt dot its shore.
yossarius 08-01-07, 04:49 PM	You know, all this talk about Stormhome lately has made me think of a story hook where the controlled weather there begins to go haywire, and naturally only the PCs can get to the bottom of it (or maybe House Lyrander offers an open reward to whoever provides the answer first, and the PCs have to race against other groups to solve the problem).
Revvecor 08-01-07, 08:40 PM	You know, all this talk about Stormhome lately has made me think of a story hook where the controlled weather there begins to go haywire, and naturally only the PCs can get to the bottom of it (or maybe House Lyrander offers an open reward to whoever provides the answer first, and the PCs have to race against other groups to solve the problem). There is a similar consept to yours in the Explorers Handbook.(I think the book is right)
Warforged_Pierce 08-02-07, 03:18 AM	That's pretty nice. Come to think of it, I would imagine that the weird weather would do strange things to the surrounding ocean and the fish stocks, possibly making the region great for the fishing villages that no doubt dot its shore. wow guess the artist never really thought much into it because that is definitely not 1600 sq mi. lol:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
yossarius 08-02-07, 01:27 PM	Comparing the poster map to the map of Aundair in 5N, my previous estimation may have been conservative. On that map, I estimate the the island's long distance is still 58 miles, but that the short distance is 43 miles, rather than 38 miles I estimated before. If the island were a rectangle, that would make it almost 2,500 sq miles, but since it is irregularly shaped (as islands tend to be) I would estimate around 1,950 sq miles. If the artist that drew the poster map was ignoring scale, it seems to be a contagious disease.