Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 07-27-07, 03:06 PM	Simple question -- if the pontiff casts Astral Projection so that she can attend to some urgent, far-away matter, and her original body is in Flamekeep, while her double is off somewhere else, can she only cast spells as a cleric 3? I'd guess that's the case, or she gains a lot more mobile power than she previously.
Nightshade 07-27-07, 04:58 PM	This is really up to your GM. But I'd say that since her physical form is in the presence of the Silver Flame in Flamekeep, then her astral powers should remain at 17.
Edymnion 07-27-07, 07:56 PM	I would say not. The whole point, IMO, is that while she is exceptional in her own right (she's a lvl 3 PC class character, after all), she only becomes Miss Badass essentially when she is defending the very seat of the Silver Flame (or it's physical manifestation anyway). So no, no Astrally Projecting then Plane Shifting back to the prime to be able to run around as a lvl 17 cleric, bypassing the normal restrictions.
ArcTan 07-28-07, 01:54 AM	I would say not. The whole point, IMO, is that while she is exceptional in her own right (she's a lvl 3 PC class character, after all), she only becomes Miss Badass essentially when she is defending the very seat of the Silver Flame (or it's physical manifestation anyway). So no, no Astrally Projecting then Plane Shifting back to the prime to be able to run around as a lvl 17 cleric, bypassing the normal restrictions. Didn't Manual of the Planes clarify that an astral projection can't ever be on the same plane as its source without instantly collapsing? Whether or not you take MotP as a whole as canon, that's definitely a houserule that should be near-universal, or else astral projection is an incredibly broken spell. With that rule in place, I don't see the problem with Jaela astrally projecting to other planes. In fact, it seems to me the only way Eberron can have any kind of useful defender in the Outer Planes, and the only way there can be liaisons between Syrania and Eberron, Angels and Archons who worship the Flame, etc. It makes a certain kind of mythic sense -- infinitely mobile and powerful in the heavens but restricted and vulnerable on earth.
Edymnion 07-28-07, 03:24 PM	Didn't Manual of the Planes clarify that an astral projection can't ever be on the same plane as its source without instantly collapsing? Whether or not you take MotP as a whole as canon, that's definitely a houserule that should be near-universal, or else astral projection is an incredibly broken spell.Dunno, I don't have MotP, so I can't check. But far as I know, AP never recieved an errata or change, meaning yes, it is horribly, horribly broken. But since giving game advice based off of house rules (no matter how common the houserule is) is bad form, I'm going off of the RAW. Since, by RAW, she could AP and then plane shift back to the Prime, it would let her run around as a lvl 17. But I'd still say no, even if you did houserule it so that coming back to the prime ended the spell. The whole idea of Eberron is that you don't have high level good guys to help you out. By letting her plane hop as a high level goodguy, it gives a planar safety net. If you can't stop the planar invasion, well, Jaela can come clean everything up for you. Eberron isn't supposed to have the ESN (Elminster Safety Net), so I still wouldn't allow it on general principle.
xstormtrooperx 07-29-07, 09:30 PM	But I'd still say no, even if you did houserule it so that coming back to the prime ended the spell. The whole idea of Eberron is that you don't have high level good guys to help you out. By letting her plane hop as a high level goodguy, it gives a planar safety net. If you can't stop the planar invasion, well, Jaela can come clean everything up for you. Eberron isn't supposed to have the ESN (Elminster Safety Net), so I still wouldn't allow it on general principle. So you suggest, that Eberron will going down the drain if the PC fail. Next group will play in a complete different enviroment. No matter if the DM or the players wish so. Eberron isnīt supposed so... then you shouldnīt mess with it as DM? :rolleyes: Your opinion in all respect, but the Campaign Setting and Source Books are no rules written in stone. They are interpretable. Especially if we talk about a NPC with an ability that doesnīt exist by RAW (an Rule Exception).
ArcTan 07-30-07, 04:10 AM	I'm just saying that if we accept the idea that there are somehow Angels in Syrania or Archons on Shavarath who "worship the Silver Flame" and answer spells like commune on behalf of the Silver Flame, then there needs to have been someone evangelizing to them about it in mortal time -- since the Silver Flame only came into being as a religion relatively recently -- and saying that the Keeper of the Flame can astrally project there is a neat and simple explanation for that.
JulesCARV 07-30-07, 01:44 PM	Well, For one thing, evangelizing archons, angels, etc, doesn't require a level 17 cleric. A level 9 cleric with Plane Shift will do. These arent exactly abundant in Eberron, but I'd say they exist enough to allow a few Silver Flame clerics who have preached to the outsiders without relying on Jaela. For another thing, previous Keepers of the Flame as adults have probably been more powerful than Jaela is now. If, a few years ago, the Church had a Keeper of the Flame who was a level 11 cleric outside the Cathedral and a level 25 cleric inside it (supposing being inside adds a +14 to effective cleric level, although that might not be true. It could just set it to a minimum of 17), then that would allow more evangelism. Lastly, if Jaela astrally projects, is a level 3 cleric while projected, and meets with the angels and archons, she might not be able to cast holy smite, but she can still talk to them. If the aforementioned outsiders value a pure soul more than they value temporal power, she could still be reasonably persuasive.