Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TiwazTyrsfist 07-09-07, 06:38 PM	So, I was thinking about running an inquisitive focused game/campaign. I.E. the sort of thing that focuses more on following clues than fighting hordes of monsters. And I ended up with a question. Do they know about fingerprints in Eberron? Do the inquisitives know about fingerprints being unique? Do they know about latent printing(dusting for prints)? And if so, this raises other questions. Warforged obviously don't have fingerprints. Do shifters have prints, or do they have pads like a cat/wolf/bear/etc? What about when they're shifting? If they have prints, do they deform while shifting? And what about changelings? I'm pretty sure they can deform their prints, if they really thing about it. But can they mimic specific peoples prints?
OctaviusIII 07-09-07, 09:41 PM	Well, I believe that they do know about fingerprints and their latency, which I think came up either in the Inquisitive prestige class or Sharn: CoT. Next: Changelings probably shouldn't be able to mimic another's prints unless they get a really clear look at them (intelligence check?) accompanied by either a disguise check or a feat. As for the rest, I don't know.
Mathus 07-10-07, 02:14 PM	Well, I believe that they do know about fingerprints and their latency, which I think came up either in the Inquisitive prestige class or Sharn: CoT. Next: Changelings probably shouldn't be able to mimic another's prints unless they get a really clear look at them (intelligence check?) accompanied by either a disguise check or a feat. As for the rest, I don't know. I would put a changeling mimicking finger prints at the impossible disguise DC of anywhere from 30 to 40. That is why fingerprints are important in today's bio security, because unless you have access to them, photocopied into silicon or using the print left behind on the scanner by a previous person, they are to many variations to copy. And to do that on 10 fingers? Impossible. Maybe a single plant from a single finger for a frame up job if the changeling knows the investigator will use prints and has access to the finger to copy for a long study session but then you get your magistrate to argue out of a single print due to the slight chance it could be mimicked. I would say modern Eberron CSI is much more magical then forensic. Although I have been reading the Inquisitor series and if you are in that campaign get your DM to read those books. I, as a DM, now seed so many little plot hooks and clues in my scenario that I am surprised my players don't automatically know who the killer is on sight. By reading those books you don't need to go all CSI to get a compelling list of facts to follow up on.
Alex_ 07-10-07, 04:08 PM	Do they know about fingerprints in Eberron? Do the inquisitives know about fingerprints being unique? Do they know about latent printing(dusting for prints)? Dusts and a brushes are standard issue in an Inquisitive's Kit. Says so in the description in the ECS. I'd assume that anyone who's looked at as many fingerprints as an Inquisitive would notice that they're different. For noticing specific or unusual sets of fingerprints, I'd probably have them roll a Spot check. Warforged obviously don't have fingerprints. Although I'm sure that if a Warforged were to grip an object particularly hard, it could leave indentions, and the texture of a Warforged's palms and digits are probably not all 100% identical. Being able to noticing this would be a higher DC. Do shifters have prints, or do they have pads like a cat/wolf/bear/etc? What about when they're shifting? If they have prints, do they deform while shifting? I've never seen any pictures of Shifters in any form suggesting they have pads in their hands or feet. I think it safe to assume they have fingerprints. And what about changelings? I'm pretty sure they can deform their prints, if they really thing about it. But can they mimic specific peoples prints? Changelings don't become the person down to the greatest detail. They merely alter their bodies enough to gain a +10 bonus to Disguise checks. This is not a total 100% transformation (or else it'd be a 1million or something), merely an extremely impressive impersonation. Also, the process is magical. The Changeling doesn't have to have examine every feature of completely nude target to mimic them, and the ruse can be seen through via magical means. So if I had a player dusting for a Changeling's fingerprints using mundane dust to compare them to someone else's, I'd use the based DC +10.
TiwazTyrsfist 07-11-07, 12:58 AM	Excellent! Thanks much for the answers.
Mathus 07-11-07, 01:44 PM	Also, the process is magical. The Changeling doesn't have to have examine every feature of completely nude target to mimic them, and the ruse can be seen through via magical means. So if I had a player dusting for a Changeling's fingerprints using mundane dust to compare them to someone else's, I'd use the based DC +10. Their change is NOT magical it is supernatural. It is not a spell but an ability. It duplicates the spell Disguise Self but there are some very definite differences. Disguise Self: You make yourself—including clothing, armor, weapons, and quipment—look different. You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between. You cannot change your body type. For example, a human caster could look human, humanoid, or like any other human-shaped bipedal creature. Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to you. You could add or obscure a minor feature or look like an entirely different person. The spell does not provide the abilities or mannerisms of the chosen form, nor does it alter the perceived tactile (touch) or audible (sound) properties of you or your equipment. A battleaxe made to look like a dagger still functions as a battleaxe. Changeling Ability: Minor Shape Shange (Su): Changelings have the supernatural ability to alter their appearance as though using a disguise self spell that affects their bodies but not their possessions. This ability is not an illusory effect but a minor physical alteration of a changeling's facial features, skin color, and texture, and size within limits described for the spell. A changeling can use this ability at will, and the alteration lasts until he changes shape again. A changeling reverts to his natural form when killed. A true seeing spell reveals his natural form. When using this ability to create a disguise, a changeling receives a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks. Using this ability is a full-round action. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on the Disguise check. A creature that interacts with the glamer gets a Will save to recognize it as an illusion. For example, a creature that touched you and realized that the tactile sensation did not match the visual one would be entitled to such a save. My argument is that because it is more biological then magical you need to know a fingerprint to duplicate it. And to duplicate all your fingerprints well enough to fool an inquisitor dusting for prints? I would say an hour of study on each print to duplicate. Granted if you have your captive trapped for a day or two it is possible but time consuming and when you are a spy stealing stuff, time is a valuable commodity.
Alex_ 07-11-07, 03:46 PM	Their change is NOT magical it is supernatural. It is not a spell but an ability. It duplicates the spell Disguise Self but there are some very definite differences. Page 289 of the Dugeon Master's Guide, under the section titled Special Abilities: Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical... Spells are but one way that magic is harnessed. My argument is that because it is more biological then magical you need to know a fingerprint to duplicate it. It's not at all biological, as biology as we understand it does not exist in Dungeons and Dragons. Furthermore, a Changeling does not need to make an elaborate study of any subject to alter themselves into a likeness of them. If such were the case, the only thing a Changeling would usually be able to mimic would be the head and arms/hands of any individual, since those are often the only parts of the body readily exposed on a fully clothed person. They just do it, and they do it well enough to warrant a +10 bonus to disguise checks. They don't get bonuses for studying the target's physical body. They don't suffer penalties depending on how much of the target's body is covered. And to duplicate all your fingerprints well enough to fool an inquisitor dusting for prints? I would say an hour of study on each print to duplicate. Granted if you have your captive trapped for a day or two it is possible but time consuming and when you are a spy stealing stuff, time is a valuable commodity. Whether or not it would fool an Inquisitor depends on the Inquisitor in question. If the normal DC for identifying human fingerprints were say, a DC 15 Spot check, then identifying fingerprints as a Changeling trying to imitate a person would be 25. Yeah it might fool those unequipped, impatient, or the untrained eye, but with the +2 bonus given by an Inquisitor's kit, the Inquisitor's own Spot skill, which is likely to be maxed out at +4 at first level, and taking 10 or 20, it's not impossible. If it's a specific person, then the Inquisitive should also get a bonus depending on how familiar they were with the impersonated individual's prints, ranging from a +4 for being able to recognize them on sight, to a +10 for being intimately familiar with them- just like opposing the Disguise skill.
OctaviusIII 07-12-07, 04:15 PM	See, I would imagine that a changeling imitating a person would do a "best guess" for what he or she can't see about the person. If you're looking at someone, you generally know their build, and from experience would be able to guess that the person would have all the necessary bits of anatomy obscured by clothing, should there be no clothing at some point. Now if the person has, say, a birthmark on their left buttock, I wouldn't expect the changeling to replicate that, as it's out of sight. Similarly, the fingerprints would have to be seen to be replicated, otherwise it's just any old print. Lastly, the addition of +10 to disguise rather than a "perfect imitation" means that the changeling isn't perfect and there are some details that he got wrong, and I'd lump fingerprints in with that. This is why I think there should be at least a spot check to replicate fingerprints, although those could just as easily be lifted from a glass as from the hand itself.
Mathus 07-12-07, 04:34 PM	And really that +10 to disguise doesn't count for spit. They suffer a -10 for mimicking any race other then changeling. The +10 is just there to offset that huge penalty for always mimicking other races. They are not any better at disguise then anyone else with the disguise skill. A magical disguise to mimic the same race is 10 ranks better then any changeling trying to do it with their ability. And the reason I say it is more biological then magical is I set the meta-physics of magic on a line. biology (natural) --> supernatural --> spell-like (spell like ability) --> magic (spells and the breakdown of physics as we know them) So a Supernatural ability has some magical qualities to it but there are some very definite rules of science that dictate what you can do with it. I can use logic to fill in the flavor gaps of a supernatural ability, with a spell-like ability, it works because it just does.
Alex_ 07-12-07, 04:58 PM	And really that +10 to disguise doesn't count for spit. They suffer a -10 for mimicking any race other then changeling. The +10 is just there to offset that huge penalty for always mimicking other races. No they don't. Using disguise to imitate another race is only a -2 penalty. Trying to disguise them self as a different race, gender, and age altogether is only a -6 penalty, still leaving them a +4 bonus. And the reason I say it is more biological then magical is I set the meta-physics of magic on a line. biology (natural) --> supernatural --> spell-like (spell like ability) --> magic (spells and the breakdown of physics as we know them) So a Supernatural ability has some magical qualities to it but there are some very definite rules of science that dictate what you can do with it. I can use logic to fill in the flavor gaps of a supernatural ability, with a spell-like ability, it works because it just does. That's not how it actually works in the D&D though. Not saying you can't do it that way in your game, but keep in mind that this is not how the abilities were designed or balanced against one another, and it can have greater consequences, like this Changeling issue has highlighted. Also, you also left out Extraordinary abilities, which are non-magical.
taski 07-14-07, 04:15 AM	Furthermore, a Changeling does not need to make an elaborate study of any subject to alter themselves into a likeness of them. ... They don't get bonuses for studying the target's physical body. They don't suffer penalties depending on how much of the target's body is covered. Neither does anyone else using the disguise skill. No disguiser gets bonuses for familiarity or penalties for the lack of it. A human could disguise himself as someone he'd only heard of once, with the exactly the same accuracy as he could disguise himself as his identical twin brother. No magic needed, just funny rules. That is really a problem with the disguise skill, not with changelings. Were I to devise a "fix," I'd make degree of familiarity impose a modifier on disguise checks made to impersonate a particular individual. Changelings would not get to automatically waive the penalties for unfamiliarity. I don't want a PC changeling to discover the masked villain's identity by making a simple disguise check. That's just not fun. Whether or not it would fool an Inquisitor depends on the Inquisitor in question. If the normal DC for identifying human fingerprints were say, a DC 15 Spot check, then identifying fingerprints as a Changeling trying to imitate a person would be 25. Yeah it might fool those unequipped, impatient, or the untrained eye, but with the +2 bonus given by an Inquisitor's kit, the Inquisitor's own Spot skill, which is likely to be maxed out at +4 at first level, and taking 10 or 20, it's not impossible. That sounds reasonable to me. Come to think of it, I'd use Search instead of Spot. Identifying fingerprints is detailed analysis of fairly tiny things, which normally falls under Search. Search also governs the finding of clues with the Investigate feat, and I would consider a fingerprint a clue. But DC 25 to recognize a human-shaped changeling's prints as in fact changeling sounds good to me. I'd also consider allowing a changeling who is familiar with fingerprinting and various humanoid print variables to be able to set the Search DC with his Disguise check. I think it would be a nice changeling-only skill trick or feat (with fairly high prerequisites). It would be great for a Tyrant mastermind.. He learns that the PC Inquisitives use fingerprinting, and he plants the prints of various Boromar crime bosses at crimescenes to frame them and get them locked up. With them out of the way, he's one step closer to owning the criminal underworld. :plotting: But since the PC Inquisitive's Search should be as high as possible, there's still the chance they'll notice the minute discrepancies between the real prints and the fake ones. If it's a specific person, then the Inquisitive should also get a bonus depending on how familiar they were with the impersonated individual's prints, ranging from a +4 for being able to recognize them on sight, to a +10 for being intimately familiar with them- just like opposing the Disguise skill. From what I understand of all those forensics documentaries I watched as a kid, detectives typically don't memorize fingerprints. They collect and record them for later reference. I think I'd let an Inquisitive record people's fingerprints in one of those notebooks included in the inquisitive's kit. He'd get a +10 to identify fingerprints that are already in his book, but if the crimescene's fingerprints aren't in his book (or someone else's book that he has access to), he can't identify the owner. He'll have to find the suspects and get their prints (a task that can range from as easy as asking to as difficult as a chase scene). I'll think on this whole thing some more. I probably should devise some mechanics for fingerprinting, since the PC Investigator that I DM has expressed interest in it. I wonder if d20 Modern has done my work for me...
Mathus 07-16-07, 04:22 PM	No they don't. Using disguise to imitate another race is only a -2 penalty. Trying to disguise them self as a different race, gender, and age altogether is only a -6 penalty, still leaving them a +4 bonus. Ahh you are correct. I was confusing my changeling and Kalashtar. Kalashtar get a +2 disguise to impersonate a human which offsets their -2 for a different race. As for how far the magical aspect of their disguise goes, until there is a sage advice on it, it will definitely be a DM call. I still argue that you can not duplicate anything you can not see. And since you can not see a fingerprint unless you are studying one, you can not duplicate it.