Is it any accident...? (Re: The Last War) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Is it any accident...? (Re: The Last War) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Einherjar_Lucian
03-26-07, 12:34 PM This may have been touched on before, or it may be coming up in the Last War book slated for this year, but...

Is it any accident that the Last War seems to have been inspired (*cough*) by the same forces that brought about the Sundering in Sarlona? I only recently made the connection that King Jerot, in the last days of his reign, was plagued by nightmares. And that his heirs suddenly had grand designs on taking the throne of Galifar by force. At the same time, the nation of Riedra had absolutely nothing to do with Galifar until the Last War started. Only then did they suddenly take an interest in aiding their wartorn neighbors.
SquirrelMortis
03-26-07, 01:09 PM It's up to the DM.
Yakman
03-26-07, 01:56 PM DM's call.
Hellcow
03-26-07, 03:41 PM It's no accident. The Last Word certainly fits the modus operandi of the Dreaming Dark. Jarot's growing paranoia leads to a kingdom on edge and geared for war; and the ambition of his heirs - ambitions which could be driven by dreams of a glorious future - shattered the kingdom.

However, the fact that it COULD be the work of the Dreaming Dark doesn't mean that it WAS. As others have said, ultimately that's up to the DM. It could have been the work of the Lords of Dust or the Chamber. Jarot might have been touched by the madness of Xoriat. It could be all of the above, or none of the above - it's possible it was simple human failing. At the end of the day, only the DM can decide.

At the same time, the nation of Riedra had absolutely nothing to do with Galifar until the Last War started. Only then did they suddenly take an interest in aiding their wartorn neighbors.
A few things here. First, the nation of RIEDRA had nothing to do with Galifar. But the Dreaming Dark stands apart from the land of the Inspired, and it may have been laying the groundwork for its schemes for centuries. Riedra is just a tool - and setting up a disaster and then coming in as "saviors" is certainly a common quori tactic.

With that said, if the Dreaming Dark was behind the Last War, it's unlikely that it had anything to do with the Mourning. The war certainly served quori interests, weakening Khorvaire and helping build ties between the Five Nations and Riedra. The Mourning brought the war to a screeching halt, and has restored peace, as shaky as this may be. If you want a weird approach, you could say that the Mourning was caused by the kalashtar - viewed as a necessary sacrifice to bring the war to an end and interfere with the plans of the Dreaming Dark. Of course, that doesn't explain HOW they'd do it... but it's worth bearing in mind that a "good" group could have been behind the Mourning.
UnderworldLord
03-26-07, 06:33 PM Or maybe the quori had an accident while trying to tunnel from their realm into this one.
Einherjar_Lucian
03-26-07, 06:48 PM However, the fact that it COULD be the work of the Dreaming Dark doesn't mean that it WAS. As others have said, ultimately that's up to the DM. It could have been the work of the Lords of Dust or the Chamber. Jarot might have been touched by the madness of Xoriat. It could be all of the above, or none of the above - it's possible it was simple human failing. At the end of the day, only the DM can decide.

I'd like to give you a huge "thank you", by the way, for giving me (the DM) enough evil ideas without laying down the heavy hand of "this is how it should be".

In the end, it might even be more satisfying to say it was just simple human failing, with no outside influence. Maybe Jarot was already losing his sense of reality, the quori picked up on it, and pushed the right buttons with the heirs to take advantage.

A few things here. First, the nation of RIEDRA had nothing to do with Galifar. But the Dreaming Dark stands apart from the land of the Inspired, and it may have been laying the groundwork for its schemes for centuries. Riedra is just a tool - and setting up a disaster and then coming in as "saviors" is certainly a common quori tactic.

That's basically what I meant. Riedra closed its borders to Khorvaire's citizens for a long time. I'd venture to guess that the quori simply didn't want outside interference while they cemented their hold on the Sarlonans; Galifar was stable and prosperous, and free.

With that said, if the Dreaming Dark was behind the Last War, it's unlikely that it had anything to do with the Mourning. The war certainly served quori interests, weakening Khorvaire and helping build ties between the Five Nations and Riedra. The Mourning brought the war to a screeching halt, and has restored peace, as shaky as this may be. If you want a weird approach, you could say that the Mourning was caused by the kalashtar - viewed as a necessary sacrifice to bring the war to an end and interfere with the plans of the Dreaming Dark. Of course, that doesn't explain HOW they'd do it... but it's worth bearing in mind that a "good" group could have been behind the Mourning.

It wouldn't be the first time that a "good" group did something disastrous, would it? ;) To be fair to the kalashtar, maybe the Mourning was an unintended side-effect of destroying a joint Cannith-Riedran "project". A creation forge would certainly speed up the process of making a monolith. Or maybe they knew exactly what they were doing.

I've already decided that Q'barra will make a great place for a monolith... :D
Darth Syntax
03-27-07, 01:36 AM I've always seen the breakup of Galifar as being quite a lot like King Lear, with Jarot in the title role. We have an old king who is going mad and we have a succession crises that seems to have it's roots in said madness, and then we have civil war and all manner of terrible things. Granted Lear is an intensely personal tragedy in the way it is written and staged, but the thematic elements are certainly there in the dissolution of Galifar.
Yakman
03-28-07, 01:49 PM My personal belief is that the Last War's cause was largely economic--Mishann was threatening to tear down ancient tariff systems between the Five Nations that would have benefitted Cyre's skilled artificers and Aundair's consumers at the expense of Thrane, Karrnath, and Breland.

As for the Mourning, I am trying to figure out just how the Aurum would do it--they essentially 'wrote-off' Cyre's war-debt such that the remaining nations would have to declare peace... or suffer from the wrath of their bankers.
The White Sorcerer
03-28-07, 06:11 PM My personal belief is that the Last War's cause was largely economic--Mishann was threatening to tear down ancient tariff systems between the Five Nations that would have benefitted Cyre's skilled artificers and Aundair's consumers at the expense of Thrane, Karrnath, and Breland.

While that is an interesting idea, I prefer the more active motives of the three rebellious scions. Thalin wanted to spread the Flamic faith, Wroann wanted progress, and Kaius simply thought that Mishann would be a weak ruler and that he would be more suitable for the job.
Yakman
03-28-07, 06:16 PM While that is an interesting idea, I prefer the more active motives of the three rebellious scions. Thalin wanted to spread the Flamic faith, Wroann wanted progress, and Kaius simply thought that Mishann would be a weak ruler and that he would be more suitable for the job.
maybe.

my personal vision has Thrane and Karrnath willing agree to Mishann's accession if she were to make some concessions (as stated in the ECS--they weren't so much angry at Mishann's succession as angry at the broader rules of succession). Breland was more intransigent, as Wroann wanted to re-write the Code of Galifar.

Ultimately, though, the impetus for the war's initiation and conclusion (in my vision) are economic.
Darth Syntax
03-29-07, 01:09 AM I tend to see the outbreak of the War as stemming from a succession crisis brought about by Jarot's madness. He would periodically name one child or another as his successor and there ended up being so many wills, writs of succession, and other such documents that it was impossible to figure out who it was that was supposed to take the throne. To add insult to injury, Mishann (in my version of the world) was an incompetent ruler who cared more about social graces and mindless court intrigue than about keeping the Galifaran state together. Kaius believed (as did the others) that if Mishann were to take the throne, the kingdom would tear itself apart or collapse into chaos. As it turns out, civil chaos seems to have been inevitable.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Einherjar_Lucian 03-26-07, 12:34 PM	This may have been touched on before, or it may be coming up in the Last War book slated for this year, but... Is it any accident that the Last War seems to have been inspired (cough) by the same forces that brought about the Sundering in Sarlona? I only recently made the connection that King Jerot, in the last days of his reign, was plagued by nightmares. And that his heirs suddenly had grand designs on taking the throne of Galifar by force. At the same time, the nation of Riedra had absolutely nothing to do with Galifar until the Last War started. Only then did they suddenly take an interest in aiding their wartorn neighbors.
SquirrelMortis 03-26-07, 01:09 PM	It's up to the DM.
Yakman 03-26-07, 01:56 PM	DM's call.
Hellcow 03-26-07, 03:41 PM	It's no accident. The Last Word certainly fits the modus operandi of the Dreaming Dark. Jarot's growing paranoia leads to a kingdom on edge and geared for war; and the ambition of his heirs - ambitions which could be driven by dreams of a glorious future - shattered the kingdom. However, the fact that it COULD be the work of the Dreaming Dark doesn't mean that it WAS. As others have said, ultimately that's up to the DM. It could have been the work of the Lords of Dust or the Chamber. Jarot might have been touched by the madness of Xoriat. It could be all of the above, or none of the above - it's possible it was simple human failing. At the end of the day, only the DM can decide. At the same time, the nation of Riedra had absolutely nothing to do with Galifar until the Last War started. Only then did they suddenly take an interest in aiding their wartorn neighbors. A few things here. First, the nation of RIEDRA had nothing to do with Galifar. But the Dreaming Dark stands apart from the land of the Inspired, and it may have been laying the groundwork for its schemes for centuries. Riedra is just a tool - and setting up a disaster and then coming in as "saviors" is certainly a common quori tactic. With that said, if the Dreaming Dark was behind the Last War, it's unlikely that it had anything to do with the Mourning. The war certainly served quori interests, weakening Khorvaire and helping build ties between the Five Nations and Riedra. The Mourning brought the war to a screeching halt, and has restored peace, as shaky as this may be. If you want a weird approach, you could say that the Mourning was caused by the kalashtar - viewed as a necessary sacrifice to bring the war to an end and interfere with the plans of the Dreaming Dark. Of course, that doesn't explain HOW they'd do it... but it's worth bearing in mind that a "good" group could have been behind the Mourning.
UnderworldLord 03-26-07, 06:33 PM	Or maybe the quori had an accident while trying to tunnel from their realm into this one.
Einherjar_Lucian 03-26-07, 06:48 PM	However, the fact that it COULD be the work of the Dreaming Dark doesn't mean that it WAS. As others have said, ultimately that's up to the DM. It could have been the work of the Lords of Dust or the Chamber. Jarot might have been touched by the madness of Xoriat. It could be all of the above, or none of the above - it's possible it was simple human failing. At the end of the day, only the DM can decide. I'd like to give you a huge "thank you", by the way, for giving me (the DM) enough evil ideas without laying down the heavy hand of "this is how it should be". In the end, it might even be more satisfying to say it was just simple human failing, with no outside influence. Maybe Jarot was already losing his sense of reality, the quori picked up on it, and pushed the right buttons with the heirs to take advantage. A few things here. First, the nation of RIEDRA had nothing to do with Galifar. But the Dreaming Dark stands apart from the land of the Inspired, and it may have been laying the groundwork for its schemes for centuries. Riedra is just a tool - and setting up a disaster and then coming in as "saviors" is certainly a common quori tactic. That's basically what I meant. Riedra closed its borders to Khorvaire's citizens for a long time. I'd venture to guess that the quori simply didn't want outside interference while they cemented their hold on the Sarlonans; Galifar was stable and prosperous, and free. With that said, if the Dreaming Dark was behind the Last War, it's unlikely that it had anything to do with the Mourning. The war certainly served quori interests, weakening Khorvaire and helping build ties between the Five Nations and Riedra. The Mourning brought the war to a screeching halt, and has restored peace, as shaky as this may be. If you want a weird approach, you could say that the Mourning was caused by the kalashtar - viewed as a necessary sacrifice to bring the war to an end and interfere with the plans of the Dreaming Dark. Of course, that doesn't explain HOW they'd do it... but it's worth bearing in mind that a "good" group could have been behind the Mourning. It wouldn't be the first time that a "good" group did something disastrous, would it? ;) To be fair to the kalashtar, maybe the Mourning was an unintended side-effect of destroying a joint Cannith-Riedran "project". A creation forge would certainly speed up the process of making a monolith. Or maybe they knew exactly what they were doing. I've already decided that Q'barra will make a great place for a monolith... :D
Darth Syntax 03-27-07, 01:36 AM	I've always seen the breakup of Galifar as being quite a lot like King Lear, with Jarot in the title role. We have an old king who is going mad and we have a succession crises that seems to have it's roots in said madness, and then we have civil war and all manner of terrible things. Granted Lear is an intensely personal tragedy in the way it is written and staged, but the thematic elements are certainly there in the dissolution of Galifar.
Yakman 03-28-07, 01:49 PM	My personal belief is that the Last War's cause was largely economic--Mishann was threatening to tear down ancient tariff systems between the Five Nations that would have benefitted Cyre's skilled artificers and Aundair's consumers at the expense of Thrane, Karrnath, and Breland. As for the Mourning, I am trying to figure out just how the Aurum would do it--they essentially 'wrote-off' Cyre's war-debt such that the remaining nations would have to declare peace... or suffer from the wrath of their bankers.
The White Sorcerer 03-28-07, 06:11 PM	My personal belief is that the Last War's cause was largely economic--Mishann was threatening to tear down ancient tariff systems between the Five Nations that would have benefitted Cyre's skilled artificers and Aundair's consumers at the expense of Thrane, Karrnath, and Breland. While that is an interesting idea, I prefer the more active motives of the three rebellious scions. Thalin wanted to spread the Flamic faith, Wroann wanted progress, and Kaius simply thought that Mishann would be a weak ruler and that he would be more suitable for the job.
Yakman 03-28-07, 06:16 PM	While that is an interesting idea, I prefer the more active motives of the three rebellious scions. Thalin wanted to spread the Flamic faith, Wroann wanted progress, and Kaius simply thought that Mishann would be a weak ruler and that he would be more suitable for the job. maybe. my personal vision has Thrane and Karrnath willing agree to Mishann's accession if she were to make some concessions (as stated in the ECS--they weren't so much angry at Mishann's succession as angry at the broader rules of succession). Breland was more intransigent, as Wroann wanted to re-write the Code of Galifar. Ultimately, though, the impetus for the war's initiation and conclusion (in my vision) are economic.
Darth Syntax 03-29-07, 01:09 AM	I tend to see the outbreak of the War as stemming from a succession crisis brought about by Jarot's madness. He would periodically name one child or another as his successor and there ended up being so many wills, writs of succession, and other such documents that it was impossible to figure out who it was that was supposed to take the throne. To add insult to injury, Mishann (in my version of the world) was an incompetent ruler who cared more about social graces and mindless court intrigue than about keeping the Galifaran state together. Kaius believed (as did the others) that if Mishann were to take the throne, the kingdom would tear itself apart or collapse into chaos. As it turns out, civil chaos seems to have been inevitable.