Kaius III and Vol? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Kaius III and Vol? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
angryphoenix
06-20-07, 01:15 AM Ok so I understand that Kaius spent 80 years severing the hold Vol had on him after being turned into a vampire. If the relationship has been severed why is Kaius' Harem followers of the blood of Vol dedicated to him? Is it because these are just some of the religious fanatics that believe undeath is the path to divinity or is their some sort of relationship still there. Also why is Kaius so intent on peace? oh, and what did Kaius do with the real Kaius III?
Nived
06-20-07, 01:52 AM Complex issue. One what requires an understanding of the Blood of Vol as a religion as seen by the common man, and not seeing it as an organization serving the whims of a secret Lich Queen. Remember 90% of those who follow the Blood of Vol have never heard of the Lich Vol.

The core belief of the Blood of Vol is the quest for immortality. Not undeath, undeath is a necassary byproduct on the path. The Blood of Vol believes in the gods, believes they exist, and that if the gods truely control the world then they created suffering and death. People who follow the Blood of Vol hate the gods for suffering and an inevitable end in Doluurh. They want to escape it.

Life is sacred to the Blood of Vol (no seriously). Divinity rests in one's lifeblood. The gods kill mortals before they can achieve godhood themselves. It is because the Gods kill mortals, that they take the best scholars the most skilled warriors from the world that the Blood of Vol uses undead. They are the tools, they have the knowledge the skill, and the time to find the answer... to figure out how to kill, destroy, or chase away the gods and bring immortality to all people. The undead are martyrs to the cause, even though they are the weapons that will bring about immortality... they have already sacrificed their shot at it. The undead have given up their lives, their blood, their divinity.

When you look at it this way its not difficult to see why Kauis has Blood of Vol followers. Vol uses the Blood of Vol to her own ends with no seeming concern or ambition to achieve the goals of the docterine she preaches. Those who know of Vol are either fooled into believing she is working towards the goal of immortality and not her own selfish ends, or are working for her selfish ends because they meet their selfish ends.

Kaius on the other hand has more or less stopped the Last War. A senseless waste of life, of divinity that drew attention and resources from the true cause. He outlawed the practice of the "Blood of Vol" not the true religion (his followers), but rather those duped into supporting a psychotic lich bent on nothing but petty revenge.

I'm not saying Kaius has any more intention to 'defeat death' than Vol, but he could easily make his BoV faithful followers that he, rather than Vol is the one who can defeat death.
angryphoenix
06-20-07, 12:07 PM So what your saying is that BoV followers aren't searching to become undead to live forever but to destroy the Gods to become immortal?
Syltorian
06-20-07, 12:18 PM So what your saying is that BoV followers aren't searching to become undead to live forever but to destroy the Gods to become immortal?

Essentially, that is correct.
Nived
06-20-07, 12:36 PM The Eberron campaign setting more or less says they worship and want to be undead. Faiths of Eberron does into more detail and says they actually want to be immortal, the undead are the tools to get there. They willingly give their blood, to the undead to empower them in the quest for immortality.

Its worth noting that many would willingly become undead should the goal of immortality not come within their lifetime.
angryphoenix
06-20-07, 12:53 PM Thanks a lot Nived, your explanation really helped. Do any of the books explain how exactly they try to go about destroying the Gods. Or should I say dupe the followers into thinking that is what they are doing? I just wonder what the day to day life of a follower entails? This also makes me wonder about the Emerald Claw. Does a low lvl EC know that they server "The Religion" or Karrnath(even without the support of the King). I think I read that only the leaders high up only know that they serve Vol directly. So what does a lowly EC believe? I know they don't know about the Lich but what about the "religion" is their any connection at that lvl?
Cifer
06-20-07, 01:51 PM Do any of the books explain how exactly they try to go about destroying the Gods.
Well, by puzzling together Eldritch Machines, of course. That's how every secret society tries to achieve their goals (except for the Aurum - they puzzle together Efficient Markets and that seems to work better...). No, seriously: Whether there are precise plans on how to defeat Death right at the moment and whether any of those plans may prove effective is up for you to decide.

Also why is Kaius so intent on peace?
Again, that's for you to decide. My opinion would be that in a stable Khorvaire, Vol has a harder time hiding her machinations.

oh, and what did Kaius do with the real Kaius III?
There's a pretty dark corner in Dreadhold where a guy with a mask made of iron... oh, just ask Mr Dumas for the details.

So what does a lowly EC believe? I know they don't know about the Lich but what about the "religion" is their any connection at that lvl?
That would depend on the chapter. There are some who believe they are a splinter of the BoV religion, some think they are Karrnathi patriots who want to dispose of the "weak" king and some might just be in it for the money and the girls (no, membership does not grant you an annual Erandis pin-up calendar!).

Finally, there's the interesting thought that Kaius, should his undead state ever be discovered, might be able to wrest a good deal of the BoV away from Vol - he's an undead champion with a good amount of charisma, after all.
angryphoenix
06-20-07, 03:20 PM You got to love Eberron....Thanks all. I need more books. :D
Bluebrush
06-20-07, 03:32 PM He outlawed the practice of the "Blood of Vol" not the true religion (his followers), but rather those duped into supporting a psychotic lich bent on nothing but petty revenge.I think it's actually the case that he outlawed the Order of the Emerald Claw (who were pretty much always having their strings pulled by Vol) and declared that the Blood of Vol was no longer the state religion, though his did not outlaw it's practice. (Since the religion as a whole is not controlled by Vol and many good, honest Karrns are followers.)
Nived
06-20-07, 03:37 PM Ok point, he didn't outlaw it. Poor choice of words, but he did drive it out of the capital.

Also it's my personal belief that Kauis was pushing for peace because he believed in the long run Karrnath would lose if the war continued on as it was going. He needed time, peace gives him the time to rebuild his forces and do whatever crazy plots a DM can come up with to give him the power and position that when the war breaks out again he WILL win. Or that's the plan anyway.
ArcTan
06-22-07, 06:23 PM Thanks a lot Nived, your explanation really helped. Do any of the books explain how exactly they try to go about destroying the Gods.

"Destroying the gods" is a poetic way of putting it. FoE makes it clear that opinions on the Sovereign Host and other religions in the BoV vary, but that most of them don't give the Host itself much thought or much credence except as a vague, shadowy symbol of what they hate, which is the natural order of death and whatever beings may or may not be behind it, causing it. (Sort of like the way real-life Satanists talk about "rebelling against God".)
Nived
06-22-07, 06:59 PM One must note that the Blood of Vol looks to intelligent undead as leaders and martyrs... and many probably willingly became undead with noble intentions of immortality and what not... but almost without fail intelligent undead are pure freaking evil. So once they are evil its easy for Vol to manipulate them.
ArcTan
06-22-07, 10:12 PM One must note that the Blood of Vol looks to intelligent undead as leaders and martyrs... and many probably willingly became undead with noble intentions of immortality and what not... but almost without fail intelligent undead are pure freaking evil. So once they are evil its easy for Vol to manipulate them.

I have to point out that despite the frequent apologists for the Blood of Vol that crop up, I still don't like the Seekers very much and prefer to play them as a genuinely Evil religion that may happen to have a lot of followers and converts who are misunderstood.

That's because I do hold to the interesting nature of having Undeath continuing to be an inherently corruptive force, because it *is* wrong to try to cheat death and selfish defiance of the natural order and a desire to hold on to life at all costs can only lead to greater and greater atrocities.

In my opinion, the hypothetical Paladin of the Blood of Vol hasn't really thought about what her faith's logical implications are to those who hold it most strongly -- and herself is a Paladin because she's focused on the external elements of the faith (the general "take care of my people and make sure they're happy and free to practice what they believe" stuff) and not what her faith *really means*.
Nived
06-23-07, 12:58 PM Oh I agree with you, it is an evil religion. That's why their clerics radiate an evil aura.

However there has to be a line of jargon to convince the common normal people what they're doing isn't pure freaking evil.

There are two kinds of followers of the BoV. Those who know exactly what they're doing, and fools.
Cifer
06-24-07, 04:48 PM because it *is* wrong to try to cheat death and selfish defiance of the natural order and a desire to hold on to life at all costs can only lead to greater and greater atrocities.
So... about 80% of House Jorasco are Evil? Because with their curing and life-granting magic, they're pretty much enabling their patients to do exactly that.

Saying that holding on to life at all costs is wrong and unnatural and Evil is one stance - but if letting mother nature sort out the sick and the elderly is right, why are clerics and druids of good alignment so often making sure this doesn't happen? The difference between undeath and curative magic - no, of medicine at all - is only one of scale unless you put up the "but Undead are Evil!" shield, which I'd call arbitrary and not inherently wrong or right.
Further, why would this Trying-to-prolong-your-life-=-Evil only apply to undead? There's about a dozen of prestige classes which end with you being immortal and don't have any effects on your alignment.
ArcTan
06-25-07, 07:24 AM So... about 80% of House Jorasco are Evil? Because with their curing and life-granting magic, they're pretty much enabling their patients to do exactly that.

Saying that holding on to life at all costs is wrong and unnatural and Evil is one stance - but if letting mother nature sort out the sick and the elderly is right, why are clerics and druids of good alignment so often making sure this doesn't happen? The difference between undeath and curative magic - no, of medicine at all - is only one of scale unless you put up the "but Undead are Evil!" shield, which I'd call arbitrary and not inherently wrong or right.

*shrug* Undeath is defined as the point beyond which you're not using "natural" methods anymore, but using "unnatural" methods -- specifically, you're using negative energy, which prolongs existence by fundamentally changing the nature of one's existence, usually by forcing you to directly prolong your life at the expense of others. (Libris Mortis describes how nearly all forms of sentient undeath involve imposing a kind of "hunger".)

Whatever. It's a game, so things defined by the game *are* inherently wrong or right. The Blood of Vol is a Lawful Evil religion.

Further, why would this Trying-to-prolong-your-life-=-Evil only apply to undead? There's about a dozen of prestige classes which end with you being immortal and don't have any effects on your alignment.

Most of them involve making some sort of direct sacrifice of your own identity to end up living forever (being an Elan, becoming that thing from Frostburn, etc.) The theme is that living forever involves giving up your own identity to live in the service of others (Deathlessness) or else feeding off of others selfishly (Undeath).
Yakman
06-26-07, 11:25 AM The Eberron campaign setting more or less says they worship and want to be undead. Faiths of Eberron does into more detail and says they actually want to be immortal, the undead are the tools to get there. They willingly give their blood, to the undead to empower them in the quest for immortality.

Its worth noting that many would willingly become undead should the goal of immortality not come within their lifetime.
It's also worth noting that the BoV as described in Faiths of Eberron is not what Keith Baker originally intended. I believe that the cult detailed in Sharn: City of Towers was more along his original design.
grifo
06-26-07, 09:17 PM I think we need to look on this from a new angle - the inside angle.

People dont join a religion because of what it offers them, they join it because they belive in it's teachings. The Blood of Vol teachs there are no real gods, that divinety flows in the blood of every living creature, however, belief is so poewrful that simply by beliving in these so called gods you create them give them power.
These false gods know the truth but in an attampt to continue their existence they bind the true divinatywith a curse - the curse of death.
Since the curse from these gods stops the true divinety it must be removed, and the only way to remove it is to defeate the false gods. Only then will the seekers, and the rest of the world, be free from death.

Now, as a seeker who belives in this you could in itanswers to many problems:
Undeath- the false gods may be powerful but so are the mortals, and while divine imortality is imposble due to the curse there are other ways to insure one's presence in the final battle. By giving up one's chance of divinety and becoming undead, the induvidual becomes a mortyr. He loses his divinety and turnes into a monster but he does it for the rest of the world.
Evil- While the faith's clerics have an Evil aura they are not realy evil. The aura comes from the false gods, using it to try and ruin the seekers belives by telling him his faith is evil.

i'm not sure where i got everything and i might have made some of it up but it's late and i'm tired.
but next time you look at BoV keep in mind there is no evil, only faith.
Cifer
06-27-07, 07:51 AM however, belief is so poewrful that simply by beliving in these so called gods you create them give them power.
Wait - I've never heard that belief comes into this anywhere. In fact, the lack of belief=power for your deity is one of the things that seperate Eberron from FR and all the others.
grifo
06-27-07, 08:53 AM Wait - I've never heard that belief comes into this anywhere. In fact, the lack of belief=power for your deity is one of the things that seperate Eberron from FR and all the others.

I didn't mean it in terms of game mechanics.
The way I see it, it's more of a way the seekers explain why their divinety is blocked and where death came from.
Please note that what I wrote refers to the belief of the seekers, not to game mechanics.
ArcTan
06-28-07, 12:32 AM Wait - I've never heard that belief comes into this anywhere. In fact, the lack of belief=power for your deity is one of the things that seperate Eberron from FR and all the others.

Some people, however, *believe* that belief = power for your deity. The Black Dragon in Q'Barra hopes that amassing enough Lizardfolk worshippers will allow him to Ascend out of his prison. The founder of the Library of Korranberg believed that by becoming the living symbol of amassing knowledge on earth he could replace Aureon in Heaven. Erandis d'Vol seems to think that if her control of the Blood of Vol grows great enough she can in some way become a true goddess. The Warforged worshippers of the Becoming God believe that through their devotion their imaginary god can become real. It is the belief and devotion of the people of Aerenal, so the dogma of the Aeren priests goes, that sustains the life of the Undying Court (in contrast to the selfish, self-powered energies that sustain negative-energy Undead).

There are plenty of examples.
Burningspear
07-01-07, 06:09 PM So... about 80% of House Jorasco are Evil? Because with their curing and life-granting magic, they're pretty much enabling their patients to do exactly that.

Saying that holding on to life at all costs is wrong and unnatural and Evil is one stance - but if letting mother nature sort out the sick and the elderly is right, why are clerics and druids of good alignment so often making sure this doesn't happen? The difference between undeath and curative magic - no, of medicine at all - is only one of scale unless you put up the "but Undead are Evil!" shield, which I'd call arbitrary and not inherently wrong or right.
Further, why would this Trying-to-prolong-your-life-=-Evil only apply to undead? There's about a dozen of prestige classes which end with you being immortal and don't have any effects on your alignment.

We can always go by the campaign change that alignment is not restricted to your religion or race (or anything else for that matter), that could include undeads also, The mummified Guardians (of a temple) could be LN, but radiate by detect spells as evil also because of the negative energy coursing through them.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
angryphoenix 06-20-07, 01:15 AM	Ok so I understand that Kaius spent 80 years severing the hold Vol had on him after being turned into a vampire. If the relationship has been severed why is Kaius' Harem followers of the blood of Vol dedicated to him? Is it because these are just some of the religious fanatics that believe undeath is the path to divinity or is their some sort of relationship still there. Also why is Kaius so intent on peace? oh, and what did Kaius do with the real Kaius III?
Nived 06-20-07, 01:52 AM	Complex issue. One what requires an understanding of the Blood of Vol as a religion as seen by the common man, and not seeing it as an organization serving the whims of a secret Lich Queen. Remember 90% of those who follow the Blood of Vol have never heard of the Lich Vol. The core belief of the Blood of Vol is the quest for immortality. Not undeath, undeath is a necassary byproduct on the path. The Blood of Vol believes in the gods, believes they exist, and that if the gods truely control the world then they created suffering and death. People who follow the Blood of Vol hate the gods for suffering and an inevitable end in Doluurh. They want to escape it. Life is sacred to the Blood of Vol (no seriously). Divinity rests in one's lifeblood. The gods kill mortals before they can achieve godhood themselves. It is because the Gods kill mortals, that they take the best scholars the most skilled warriors from the world that the Blood of Vol uses undead. They are the tools, they have the knowledge the skill, and the time to find the answer... to figure out how to kill, destroy, or chase away the gods and bring immortality to all people. The undead are martyrs to the cause, even though they are the weapons that will bring about immortality... they have already sacrificed their shot at it. The undead have given up their lives, their blood, their divinity. When you look at it this way its not difficult to see why Kauis has Blood of Vol followers. Vol uses the Blood of Vol to her own ends with no seeming concern or ambition to achieve the goals of the docterine she preaches. Those who know of Vol are either fooled into believing she is working towards the goal of immortality and not her own selfish ends, or are working for her selfish ends because they meet their selfish ends. Kaius on the other hand has more or less stopped the Last War. A senseless waste of life, of divinity that drew attention and resources from the true cause. He outlawed the practice of the "Blood of Vol" not the true religion (his followers), but rather those duped into supporting a psychotic lich bent on nothing but petty revenge. I'm not saying Kaius has any more intention to 'defeat death' than Vol, but he could easily make his BoV faithful followers that he, rather than Vol is the one who can defeat death.
angryphoenix 06-20-07, 12:07 PM	So what your saying is that BoV followers aren't searching to become undead to live forever but to destroy the Gods to become immortal?
Syltorian 06-20-07, 12:18 PM	So what your saying is that BoV followers aren't searching to become undead to live forever but to destroy the Gods to become immortal? Essentially, that is correct.
Nived 06-20-07, 12:36 PM	The Eberron campaign setting more or less says they worship and want to be undead. Faiths of Eberron does into more detail and says they actually want to be immortal, the undead are the tools to get there. They willingly give their blood, to the undead to empower them in the quest for immortality. Its worth noting that many would willingly become undead should the goal of immortality not come within their lifetime.
angryphoenix 06-20-07, 12:53 PM	Thanks a lot Nived, your explanation really helped. Do any of the books explain how exactly they try to go about destroying the Gods. Or should I say dupe the followers into thinking that is what they are doing? I just wonder what the day to day life of a follower entails? This also makes me wonder about the Emerald Claw. Does a low lvl EC know that they server "The Religion" or Karrnath(even without the support of the King). I think I read that only the leaders high up only know that they serve Vol directly. So what does a lowly EC believe? I know they don't know about the Lich but what about the "religion" is their any connection at that lvl?
Cifer 06-20-07, 01:51 PM	Do any of the books explain how exactly they try to go about destroying the Gods. Well, by puzzling together Eldritch Machines, of course. That's how every secret society tries to achieve their goals (except for the Aurum - they puzzle together Efficient Markets and that seems to work better...). No, seriously: Whether there are precise plans on how to defeat Death right at the moment and whether any of those plans may prove effective is up for you to decide. Also why is Kaius so intent on peace? Again, that's for you to decide. My opinion would be that in a stable Khorvaire, Vol has a harder time hiding her machinations. oh, and what did Kaius do with the real Kaius III? There's a pretty dark corner in Dreadhold where a guy with a mask made of iron... oh, just ask Mr Dumas for the details. So what does a lowly EC believe? I know they don't know about the Lich but what about the "religion" is their any connection at that lvl? That would depend on the chapter. There are some who believe they are a splinter of the BoV religion, some think they are Karrnathi patriots who want to dispose of the "weak" king and some might just be in it for the money and the girls (no, membership does not grant you an annual Erandis pin-up calendar!). Finally, there's the interesting thought that Kaius, should his undead state ever be discovered, might be able to wrest a good deal of the BoV away from Vol - he's an undead champion with a good amount of charisma, after all.
angryphoenix 06-20-07, 03:20 PM	You got to love Eberron....Thanks all. I need more books. :D
Bluebrush 06-20-07, 03:32 PM	He outlawed the practice of the "Blood of Vol" not the true religion (his followers), but rather those duped into supporting a psychotic lich bent on nothing but petty revenge.I think it's actually the case that he outlawed the Order of the Emerald Claw (who were pretty much always having their strings pulled by Vol) and declared that the Blood of Vol was no longer the state religion, though his did not outlaw it's practice. (Since the religion as a whole is not controlled by Vol and many good, honest Karrns are followers.)
Nived 06-20-07, 03:37 PM	Ok point, he didn't outlaw it. Poor choice of words, but he did drive it out of the capital. Also it's my personal belief that Kauis was pushing for peace because he believed in the long run Karrnath would lose if the war continued on as it was going. He needed time, peace gives him the time to rebuild his forces and do whatever crazy plots a DM can come up with to give him the power and position that when the war breaks out again he WILL win. Or that's the plan anyway.
ArcTan 06-22-07, 06:23 PM	Thanks a lot Nived, your explanation really helped. Do any of the books explain how exactly they try to go about destroying the Gods. "Destroying the gods" is a poetic way of putting it. FoE makes it clear that opinions on the Sovereign Host and other religions in the BoV vary, but that most of them don't give the Host itself much thought or much credence except as a vague, shadowy symbol of what they hate, which is the natural order of death and whatever beings may or may not be behind it, causing it. (Sort of like the way real-life Satanists talk about "rebelling against God".)
Nived 06-22-07, 06:59 PM	One must note that the Blood of Vol looks to intelligent undead as leaders and martyrs... and many probably willingly became undead with noble intentions of immortality and what not... but almost without fail intelligent undead are pure freaking evil. So once they are evil its easy for Vol to manipulate them.
ArcTan 06-22-07, 10:12 PM	One must note that the Blood of Vol looks to intelligent undead as leaders and martyrs... and many probably willingly became undead with noble intentions of immortality and what not... but almost without fail intelligent undead are pure freaking evil. So once they are evil its easy for Vol to manipulate them. I have to point out that despite the frequent apologists for the Blood of Vol that crop up, I still don't like the Seekers very much and prefer to play them as a genuinely Evil religion that may happen to have a lot of followers and converts who are misunderstood. That's because I do hold to the interesting nature of having Undeath continuing to be an inherently corruptive force, because it is wrong to try to cheat death and selfish defiance of the natural order and a desire to hold on to life at all costs can only lead to greater and greater atrocities. In my opinion, the hypothetical Paladin of the Blood of Vol hasn't really thought about what her faith's logical implications are to those who hold it most strongly -- and herself is a Paladin because she's focused on the external elements of the faith (the general "take care of my people and make sure they're happy and free to practice what they believe" stuff) and not what her faith really means.
Nived 06-23-07, 12:58 PM	Oh I agree with you, it is an evil religion. That's why their clerics radiate an evil aura. However there has to be a line of jargon to convince the common normal people what they're doing isn't pure freaking evil. There are two kinds of followers of the BoV. Those who know exactly what they're doing, and fools.
Cifer 06-24-07, 04:48 PM	because it is wrong to try to cheat death and selfish defiance of the natural order and a desire to hold on to life at all costs can only lead to greater and greater atrocities. So... about 80% of House Jorasco are Evil? Because with their curing and life-granting magic, they're pretty much enabling their patients to do exactly that. Saying that holding on to life at all costs is wrong and unnatural and Evil is one stance - but if letting mother nature sort out the sick and the elderly is right, why are clerics and druids of good alignment so often making sure this doesn't happen? The difference between undeath and curative magic - no, of medicine at all - is only one of scale unless you put up the "but Undead are Evil!" shield, which I'd call arbitrary and not inherently wrong or right. Further, why would this Trying-to-prolong-your-life-=-Evil only apply to undead? There's about a dozen of prestige classes which end with you being immortal and don't have any effects on your alignment.
ArcTan 06-25-07, 07:24 AM	So... about 80% of House Jorasco are Evil? Because with their curing and life-granting magic, they're pretty much enabling their patients to do exactly that. Saying that holding on to life at all costs is wrong and unnatural and Evil is one stance - but if letting mother nature sort out the sick and the elderly is right, why are clerics and druids of good alignment so often making sure this doesn't happen? The difference between undeath and curative magic - no, of medicine at all - is only one of scale unless you put up the "but Undead are Evil!" shield, which I'd call arbitrary and not inherently wrong or right. shrug Undeath is defined as the point beyond which you're not using "natural" methods anymore, but using "unnatural" methods -- specifically, you're using negative energy, which prolongs existence by fundamentally changing the nature of one's existence, usually by forcing you to directly prolong your life at the expense of others. (Libris Mortis describes how nearly all forms of sentient undeath involve imposing a kind of "hunger".) Whatever. It's a game, so things defined by the game are inherently wrong or right. The Blood of Vol is a Lawful Evil religion. Further, why would this Trying-to-prolong-your-life-=-Evil only apply to undead? There's about a dozen of prestige classes which end with you being immortal and don't have any effects on your alignment. Most of them involve making some sort of direct sacrifice of your own identity to end up living forever (being an Elan, becoming that thing from Frostburn, etc.) The theme is that living forever involves giving up your own identity to live in the service of others (Deathlessness) or else feeding off of others selfishly (Undeath).
Yakman 06-26-07, 11:25 AM	The Eberron campaign setting more or less says they worship and want to be undead. Faiths of Eberron does into more detail and says they actually want to be immortal, the undead are the tools to get there. They willingly give their blood, to the undead to empower them in the quest for immortality. Its worth noting that many would willingly become undead should the goal of immortality not come within their lifetime. It's also worth noting that the BoV as described in Faiths of Eberron is not what Keith Baker originally intended. I believe that the cult detailed in Sharn: City of Towers was more along his original design.
grifo 06-26-07, 09:17 PM	I think we need to look on this from a new angle - the inside angle. People dont join a religion because of what it offers them, they join it because they belive in it's teachings. The Blood of Vol teachs there are no real gods, that divinety flows in the blood of every living creature, however, belief is so poewrful that simply by beliving in these so called gods you create them give them power. These false gods know the truth but in an attampt to continue their existence they bind the true divinatywith a curse - the curse of death. Since the curse from these gods stops the true divinety it must be removed, and the only way to remove it is to defeate the false gods. Only then will the seekers, and the rest of the world, be free from death. Now, as a seeker who belives in this you could in itanswers to many problems: Undeath- the false gods may be powerful but so are the mortals, and while divine imortality is imposble due to the curse there are other ways to insure one's presence in the final battle. By giving up one's chance of divinety and becoming undead, the induvidual becomes a mortyr. He loses his divinety and turnes into a monster but he does it for the rest of the world. Evil- While the faith's clerics have an Evil aura they are not realy evil. The aura comes from the false gods, using it to try and ruin the seekers belives by telling him his faith is evil. i'm not sure where i got everything and i might have made some of it up but it's late and i'm tired. but next time you look at BoV keep in mind there is no evil, only faith.
Cifer 06-27-07, 07:51 AM	however, belief is so poewrful that simply by beliving in these so called gods you create them give them power. Wait - I've never heard that belief comes into this anywhere. In fact, the lack of belief=power for your deity is one of the things that seperate Eberron from FR and all the others.
grifo 06-27-07, 08:53 AM	Wait - I've never heard that belief comes into this anywhere. In fact, the lack of belief=power for your deity is one of the things that seperate Eberron from FR and all the others. I didn't mean it in terms of game mechanics. The way I see it, it's more of a way the seekers explain why their divinety is blocked and where death came from. Please note that what I wrote refers to the belief of the seekers, not to game mechanics.
ArcTan 06-28-07, 12:32 AM	Wait - I've never heard that belief comes into this anywhere. In fact, the lack of belief=power for your deity is one of the things that seperate Eberron from FR and all the others. Some people, however, believe that belief = power for your deity. The Black Dragon in Q'Barra hopes that amassing enough Lizardfolk worshippers will allow him to Ascend out of his prison. The founder of the Library of Korranberg believed that by becoming the living symbol of amassing knowledge on earth he could replace Aureon in Heaven. Erandis d'Vol seems to think that if her control of the Blood of Vol grows great enough she can in some way become a true goddess. The Warforged worshippers of the Becoming God believe that through their devotion their imaginary god can become real. It is the belief and devotion of the people of Aerenal, so the dogma of the Aeren priests goes, that sustains the life of the Undying Court (in contrast to the selfish, self-powered energies that sustain negative-energy Undead). There are plenty of examples.
Burningspear 07-01-07, 06:09 PM	So... about 80% of House Jorasco are Evil? Because with their curing and life-granting magic, they're pretty much enabling their patients to do exactly that. Saying that holding on to life at all costs is wrong and unnatural and Evil is one stance - but if letting mother nature sort out the sick and the elderly is right, why are clerics and druids of good alignment so often making sure this doesn't happen? The difference between undeath and curative magic - no, of medicine at all - is only one of scale unless you put up the "but Undead are Evil!" shield, which I'd call arbitrary and not inherently wrong or right. Further, why would this Trying-to-prolong-your-life-=-Evil only apply to undead? There's about a dozen of prestige classes which end with you being immortal and don't have any effects on your alignment. We can always go by the campaign change that alignment is not restricted to your religion or race (or anything else for that matter), that could include undeads also, The mummified Guardians (of a temple) could be LN, but radiate by detect spells as evil also because of the negative energy coursing through them.