Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Melvin the Mediocre 01-18-07, 11:20 AM	Is there any place or book (official or nonofficial) that fleshes out some of the Karnathi warlords? I'm curious about a number of things from how many there are and how large of a region each one conctrols, to how independant they are and what sort of motives and loyalties they have. I fully admit I have not read Karnathi's entry in Five Nations very closely and even my skimming of it was a very long time ago. But I don't remember it really getting into much detail behind the political / feudal structure of the nation.
Syltorian 01-18-07, 03:38 PM	I don't think there is very much detail given. Many Karrns still think they could have won the war, and believe Kaius III is a traitor and a coward to have made peace. Several warlords seem to be exploiting those feelings and try to set themselves up for more power. The monarchy has also split from the Blood of Vol, and the Emerald Claw has been outlawed... all this has created strong feelings in Karrnath, and it is difficult to control the remote reaches of such a large and sparsely inhabited country. But there have been no actual names given. Count Vedim has been named, amongst other places in Magic of Eberron, but he is a relative of the king. As a Minister of the Dead, he seems to be fairly independant and engaged in activities Kaius does not necessarily condone, or even know about. Also, the Blood of Vol seems to have more power in Athur than the King does; his power to throw out the Blood has been mostly limited to Korth itself. I assume, myself, that the warlords have much more power than Kaius would have like, but not as much as the warlords would like. They are probably more independant than those of Thrane, and even Breland (who spent most of their time in Wroat in the Parliament, and can thus be checked with more ease, for all the intruigues they lead) and possibly Aundair (who are very loyal to their Queen). But Moranna, who was regent before Kaius III, seems to have been a rather strong leader, and Kaius III himself is no soft ruler, either. The Emerald Claw was outlawed during Moranna's time, amongst other things. I could see her as curbing any too ambitious warlords; and the same for Kaius. Requiring them to live at his court would help, for example. I could see these two playing Richelieu in order to keep the various lords and cities on a shorter leash...
Darth Syntax 01-18-07, 04:42 PM	My own take on the situation (in a somewhat over-simplified fashion) is that Kaius and the Warlords do not get along at all, and that each would prefer to see the other stripped of power. Kaius' political backers are primarily the merchant classes and the urban population of the western cities (Korth, Karrlakton, Rekkenmark) as well as The Dark Cabinet (the ominous karrnathi intelligence organization). This is the more industrialized portion of the country and they are dependent on trade and manufacturing for their economic power. As a result, peace is good for business, especially when you are shipping paper, furniture, luxury items, sea food, alchemical goods, and other such things. By and large, the western Karrnathi are anti-aristocratic, merchant/capitalists, and in favor of a strong, centralized state (it puts the power closer to home, and thus gives them more political clout). Ideally, Kaius would like to see the dissolution of the hereditary aristocracy so that he can place his advisers and other state officials directly in control of the country. This would allow for a greater concentration of national power , and remove all of those pesky 'noble rights and privileges' which get in the way of an efficient and prosperous government. The Warlords, on the other hand, have far more political clout in the central and eastern portions of the country. Land owners, the rural people, farmers, and the like tend to back them. The warlords would like to see a weaker , more pliable king on throne, so that they can run the country rather than having to worry about the edicts of the crown. -- Personally, I could see Kaius 'abolishing' the nobility within a decade, possibly by pulling a Loius XIV and making them live in Korth (where he and his agents can keep an eye on them) rather than out in their holdings. Then, he would slowly erode their political power while simultaneously increasing their social power, until the nobles no longer had any useful control of their home territories.
Nived 01-18-07, 04:55 PM	Remember the Warlords probably dislike each other just as much as they dislike Kauis. Blaming each other for various military failures and blunders why they didn't win the war. Besides the ones with rebellious thoughts think THEY should be the ruler not the next Warlord over. This keeps them from uniting to overthrow the throne and Kauis probably works to cultivate these divisive feelings
Melvin the Mediocre 01-18-07, 05:05 PM	The term warlord implies that the nobles have a considerable amount of brute force power in the way of armies. So I tend to think that if the king had the support of the merchants, the warlords would put them to the sword, and Kaius would be out on his tush. I'm guessign that there is a collective body of warlords forming and breaking alliances as they scheme to push Karnath in the direction of their choosing. At the moment, enough of them back the king that none have braved a restart of the war. But schemes keep happening, and between the Emerald Claw, the Blood of Vol, and Count Vedim ir'Omik; some one is bound to try the king's power.
Syltorian 01-18-07, 05:34 PM	The term warlord implies that the nobles have a considerable amount of brute force power in the way of armies. So I tend to think that if the king had the support of the merchants, the warlords would put them to the sword, and Kaius would be out on his tush. Except that, with the support of the merchants and the urban population, Kaius controls money. He is able to pay his own soldiers better than the remote warlords. He is able to give them better equipment. With the rich merchants on his side, he can get a vast army of mercenaries from Deneith even if his own troops should falter. The warlords cannot, individually, afford this, except by offering dubious terms to Deneith, and promises of more rights. Which they cannot fulfill if they don't win, whereas Kaius is already in the position to pamper them. Don't forget that amongst those merchants, there are the dragonmarked houses. The Twelve is right there in Korth. The houses are neutral with regards to the Five Nations, but they acknowledge the authority the king has over his vassals and subjects (e.g. in the Dragon Mag. article on Dreadhold, it was pointed out that Kundarak allows hierarchically higher-placed people in the same country to countermand orders of their subalterns, even when dealing with a dragonmarked house on its own territory). Unless a warlord offers them substantial advantages and certainty of winning, they will stand with Kaius. He also has the best schools for training his people, or at least those friendly to him - in Korth (the Twelve), Atur (Atur Accademy) and Rekkenmark. While most warlords go there too, such places can be used to recruit personal favourites... even scions of the merchant class. After all, Karrnath has a strong martial tradition. Everyone did their military service: Karrn merchants aren't pampered decadents who couldn't leave their house without being carried by their servants. Many of them will be efficient fighters, or at the very least capable organisers. With the urban population, he will also have a the best wizards; they usually do not get trained in the countryside at a castle of however formidable a country-lord. A warlord may have a hedge wizard or a sorceror, but Atur and the Twelve are the best resources for magic, and while Atur is mostly controlled by the Blood of Vol, the warlords will not have too much power there, either. Kaius also has, quite likely, most of the Sovereign Host clergy on his side. They don't like the Blood of Vol either, and they have powerful people in Korth... and no superiors in a Church structure that would get into the way, as would be the case with the Blood of Vol or the Silver Flame. And Kaius himself is a warlord, too. He controls Korth as his personal domain, and probably his ancestral holdings of Karrlakton. The strongest, most industrialised and richest parts of the entire country are his, and as long as the other warlords don't ally - which I cannot see them do, since they couldn't allow anyone else to become king but themselves - he can manage to depose some who behave too treacherously. By virtue of being the strongest kid on the block. It's going to upset some people, so he won't do this unless absolutely necessary, but I am sure he can. And he has no scruples. To win the war and the crown, a warlord would need to ally with the majority of the other warlords, get the dragonmarked houses to at least stay neutral, and make arrangements with another nation. Allying with Thrane or Aundair will merely drive his own people back to Kaius; Breland is too far away. Assuming a warlord could trust these nations not to simply wait for Karrnath to be weakened by civil war, then march in and "re-establish order". Otherwise, Kaius is simply the strongest, the richest, and has the best connections. It would not be wise to challenge him, even without knowing who he really is...
Melvin the Mediocre 01-19-07, 10:28 AM	There is a lot of room to play wtih how much power you want each warlord to have. It lloks like I'm considering the warlords to be more powerful than the other posters on the thread, but I really value the input - I love getting other perspectives before I design my campaign elements. :D I was thinking I would go with 12 warlords + Kaius, but last night as I was looking at the map I started wondering if that will be to many. I also started reading the Karnath section of 5N again last night and need to digest all of that info. But I think I will post my warlords here along with their motivations and positions for feedback once I have them pounded out on paper. That will probably be ealry next week. I don't expect more than one of them (if any) will actually want the crown though. I mean sure a lot of them might covet the power, but most of the warlords in my game won't believe it is an achiavable goal. Kaius, I have decided, has decided to push for peace because he has his sites on ruling the entire globe, not just Galifar. Now that he is immortal he has far more patience and has realized that war is weakening Khorvaire, and he needs a strong and firmly united Khorvaire if he is going to conquor the other human continent along with elves, giants, and dragons. His plans are to build up loyalty of the other nations over several generations, hence his plots like fostering other kingdoms children and building up religions answering to him instead of Errandis.
Syltorian 01-19-07, 11:56 AM	There is a lot of room to play wtih how much power you want each warlord to have. Aye, that is the advantage of Eberron. It often gives only guidelines for things, which might be construed as a lack of information... but leaves the DM with a great freedom of introducing his own elements rather than following some rigid source. I was thinking I would go with 12 warlords + Kaius, but last night as I was looking at the map I started wondering if that will be to many. I think I can see where you get your numbers from. :D This would mean you get one warlord for roughly every 192,000 inhabitants, given Karrnath's population. Personally, I think thirteen warlords are too few, rather than too much, and would say there are thirteen powerful warlords, and a large number of lesser (but independant) ones. Independant from anyone between them and Kaius in the feudal hierarchy. Some comparisons: Q'Barra has about 200,000 non-lizardfolk inhabitants. All of the Lhazaar Principalities, which has a score or so Princes, has 500,000 inhabitants. On average, a Mror Hold clan has about 58,000 members. Of course, numbers are somewhat falsified due to the fact that a vast majority of the people live in Korth, Atur, Karrlakton and Rekkenmark, which leaves the warlords with less people. Of course, population numbers have always been rather controversial in Eberron, so one could just ignore this. :) I also started reading the Karnath section of 5N again last night and need to digest all of that info. But I think I will post my warlords here along with their motivations and positions for feedback once I have them pounded out on paper. That will probably be ealry next week. I'll be looking forward to that. I've already given a brief thought about adapting some domains from Ravenloft into Karrn counties and duchies, but I'll be greatly looking forward to seeing what you do with your warlords. Kaius, I have decided, has decided to push for peace because he has his sites on ruling the entire globe, not just Galifar. Now that he is immortal he has far more patience and has realized that war is weakening Khorvaire, and he needs a strong and firmly united Khorvaire if he is going to conquor the other human continent along with elves, giants, and dragons. His plans are to build up loyalty of the other nations over several generations, hence his plots like fostering other kingdoms children and building up religions answering to him instead of Errandis. Interesting idea. I am sure the Inspired of Riedra will be very pleased when they find an army knocking on their door, sent by a Galifar they helped stabilise! :D
Melvin the Mediocre 01-19-07, 03:11 PM	Personally, I think thirteen warlords are too few, rather than too much, and would say there are thirteen powerful warlords, and a large number of lesser (but independant) ones. Independant from anyone between them and Kaius in the feudal hierarchy. I forget the wording, but 5N led me to think that war lords are just the most powerful nobles. I'm not sure if I will make it an official title or a popular reference to power. Interesting idea. I am sure the Inspired of Riedra will be very pleased when they find an army knocking on their door, sent by a Galifar they helped stabilise! :D Heh heh - I didn't even think of that, but I like it! I'll definatley have to try working that in to the campaign. Can they figure out what K's up to, can they stop it, are they backing him in the hopes of ruling through him.... hrm.
Melvin the Mediocre 01-19-07, 07:58 PM	By completly shirking my actual responsibilities, I was able to get to this sooner than expected :D This is very much a work in progress, and as I haven't named them yet, I have numbered them: 0 King Kiaus III (Korth/Karrnath) Deeply encapsulated in his own schemes and ploys, the king of late is but seldom seen. Instead Kiaus has left the day to day management of his holdings almost completely under the direction of his capable generals and ministers. On occasion he emerges from the darkness to whisper direction in their ears. 1 First Warlord Sirand elven male Cleric/Bone Knight: LE (Rekkenmark) In favor of war. Secretly ranks high within the Emerald Claw. He uses the claw to continuously provoke Thrane, while publicly claiming he supports the king and wants peace to prevail though often adding in asides that he is not sure peace is truly possible to maintain. Rekkenmark academy also falls under his jurisdiction, a fact he attempts to exploit frequently by subtle influence on all who study there. 2 Warlord Comoland human male aristocrat/warrior:CG (Karrlakton) In favor of war. He is strongly anti-theocracy and fears that success of the Silver Flame in Thrane will encourage growth of the Blood of Vol in Karrnath. However he is deeply troubled by the Mourning, which curtails his public encouragement of the nobles to over ride the king's decision and march back to war. Instead he is working quietly with the Galifar Loyalists of Thrane in the hopes they can restore their own crown to power. 3 Warlord Renter Druegar; aristocrat/warrior: NE (Irontown) In favor of war. He has been conspiring with Zorlan d'Cannith to forge a new undead weapon to inflict upon his enemies. He has already formed a detailed plan of a surprise attack on the Mror Holds which he will spring at the first signs that the dogs of war have slipped. He expects the attack will net enough spoils to purchase his new arsenal from Zorlan. His advisors caution he may be over estimating Zorlan's ability to deliver. 4 Warlord Konger human male warrior/adept: LG (Atur) In favor of peace. It is a loosely kept secret that he is a follower of the Silver Flame. He hopes to use his understanding of the Thrane's tenets to build goodwill and solid relations with his country's greatest enemy. He believes that his goodwill will lead first to trade, and eventually to prosperity, cultural enrichment, and a golden age for his lands. This golden age, he hopes, will in turn cause all of Karrnath to see the light and turn their backs on false religions such as the Blood of Vol and the Sovereign Host. In the meantime, he surrounds himself with hired guards of Deneith and prophets from Medanni as he is afraid that Malenor's assassins might to easily infiltrate his own personal guard. 5 Warlord Amirek human male: CE (Vedykar) In favor of peace… for now. It appears that poor management of his affairs will soon topple him as warlord and reduce him to least of Karrnath's nobles if he is not stripped of his title out right. During the Last War, Lord Amirek's role was entirely defensive and he never led his army to invade another nation. He has exploited this fact to great advantage, gaining more trust than many of his rivals are able owing to lingering hatreds and fears. He is setting up numerous "pay me later" deals and taking out numerous loans leaving him deeply in debt. However, once he believes he has milked Karrnath's neighbors for all they are worth, he will help to rekindle the war so as to erase all his debt. 6 Warlord Angolf half elf male: N (Karrn Bay / Rekkenmark) In favor of peace. An insecure and nervous man, Lord Angolf came to power unexpectedly when his father and older brother were both killed in Cyre on the Day of Mourning. Though his family's holdings are in Rekkenmark, he is charged with the Royal Fleet and is aboard ship as often as not, and far more comfortable there than in court. With far more responsibility than he was ever prepared to handle, while on land he has become a complete and total toadie to King Kaius. He believes his only chance to remain in power is to curry favor in hopes of protection from his enemies. In truth he has an uncanny ability for command and tactics while on the seas, and for this reason his is seen by the king and warlords as essential for the defense of Karrnath despite his landside simpering. 7 Warlord Koschulz human male: NG (Vom/Brom) In favor of peace. Lord Koschulz sees the whole idea of Galifar and a united continent as a broken dream. He is ready to turn his attention inward, rebuilding Karnath as a new, independent nation that can stand alone and remain secure in the new world order. 8 Warlord Langer human/were boar male, fighter: LE (Fort Deepdark) In favor of War. Lord Langer is a complete and incorrigible sadist and radical follower of the Blood of Vol, or at least his interpretation of the religion. He is convinced that when enough blood has been spilled by his command, he will ascend to godhood. In his castle are numerous grisly torture chambers. He has experimented with every horror story, myth, and rumor involving blood letting ever imagined. In private, he wears his victims skin and literally bathes in their blood. His collection of undead greatly exceed those allowed by the Code of Kaius. While he was always a cold, cruel man his tendencies fully emerged during the war when he was infected with lycanthropy. 9 Warlord Toula elven female, wizard (necromancer): LE (Jern/Trag/Senne) In favor or war. A formerly gentle and noble woman, she has been driven to the brink of madness by the desire for revenge. She is plagued nightly by visions of her family's death during the Last War. Although she has significant holdings, her political power has been greatly reduced in the last few years as her hatred and near-madness taint and overwhelm her personality. 10 War Mistress Beuca human female: NE (Vulyar/Karnel) In favor of peace. She is terrified that the Mournland was caused by a weapon of a rival, and as such strives for peace. However, she loves to frame others and uses the Emerald Claw to discredit her opponents when she is sure she can get away with it. 11 War Mistress Werz human female; LE (Lakeside) In favor of peace. Although she gained most of her power during the course of the war, she is now paranoid that the jealous eyes of Karnath's other war lords are all on her holdings, and that war would allow them to enact their schemes aimed at claiming her land and wealth as their own. 12 Warlord Kruger human male, aristocrat/expert: CG(Teryk) Kruger believes that trade and industry are his best plan for increasing his wealth and position. 13 Thaderecus human male:CE(Karrnwood) On dark nights peasants huddled around their fires and stout tankards of nightwood ale speak of the most enigmatic warlord and his army of flesh eaters. This ghoulish lord rules the Karrnwood as only his savage whim compels him. Only the gods know if he even answers to Kiaus any longer, or if the king has simply forgotten his subjects in the forests. In truth this warlord is an expirement by the king. It is a ghoul lord whose army is composed of his own victims.
Nived 01-19-07, 09:59 PM	Just a note for #6.... lord Twitnit was it? You might want to move his land holdings. Rekkenmark is not a port town it's high on sheer sea cliffs that serve as a natural defence. Not the idea place for a naval commander to headquarter since he has no access to his fleet.
Melvin the Mediocre 01-19-07, 10:56 PM	Just a note for #6.... lord Twitnit was it? You might want to move his land holdings. Rekkenmark is not a port town it's high on sheer sea cliffs that serve as a natural defence. Not the idea place for a naval commander to headquarter since he has no access to his fleet. Thanks, I wasn't aware of that. I'll look for a new home for him. In the meantime, I've given the lot of them names now, though I may still change some of them.
Syltorian 01-20-07, 08:04 AM	Good work, Melvin! :) I like how you deal with Eberron's idea that evil doesn't necessarily mean Evil in most cases, and that peace/war don't have anything to do with good/evil. I also find it very interesting to have the warlord in control of Atur be a follower of the Silver Flame. I'll have to steal some of those if I ever set a campaign in Karrnath (though I'll probably turn one of them into a werewolf, just because I like that cliche).
Melvin the Mediocre 01-20-07, 08:10 PM	(though I'll probably turn one of them into a werewolf, just because I like that cliche). YOINK!
okaynowa 01-24-07, 12:07 PM	Melvin, I just went back to the ECS and had a gander at Karrnath's demographics. Whatever the nation's actual population is, the racial breakdown shows humans as only 52% of the total. Now, while I'd expect humans to dominate politics in the Five Nations, and Karrnath's large halfling population is probably tied up with House Jorasco, have you considered making any of the warlords elven, half-elven, or dwarvish? There's several large forests in Karrnath where an elven warlord would make sense. Given the elven penchant for magic and the Aerenal traditions concerning death, they might even be foremost among Karrnath's military necromancers. A half-elf warlord could also result from the merging of historically human and elven raths, or simple fraternization within the ranks. (I don't know your take on Karrnathi inheritance vs. meritocracy, but either way I imagine a half-elf would find it easier than some to get promoted.) Given Karrnath's proximity to the Mror Holds, it's more than likely that some dwarven clans ended up on the Galifaran side of the border. If those clans had a feud against the rest of the Mror, it's conceivable that they would assimilate Karrnathi culture with a minimum of fuss. Strongholds become raths, clan chieftains become warlords. The Icetop Mountains are the most obvious place for a dwarven warlord, but there's probably room for one or two in the Ashen Spires as well. Just a thought!
Cifer 01-24-07, 12:32 PM	0 King Kiaus III (Korth/Karrnath) Deeply encapsulated in his own schemes and ploys, the king of late is but seldom seen. Instead Kiaus has left the day to day management of his holdings almost completely under the direction of his capable generals and ministers. On occasion he emerges from the darkness to whisper direction in their ears. Actually, I'd imagine him to be seen quite often. Kaius is a king with a comparably unstable rule, so he'd make certain he is seen as very active. Of course, most of his apperances would simply be employed and possibly telepathic-bonded changelings, but he would be seen...
Melvin the Mediocre 01-26-07, 02:38 PM	Just a note for #6.... You might want to move his land holdings. Rekkenmark is not a port town it's high on sheer sea cliffs that serve as a natural defence. On the other hand, 5K lists destinations of sailing ships leaving from Korth's docks and specifically mentions Rekkenmark. So now I'm thinking of having huge elemental powered water-escalators that flow at a 30 degree slope up to as well as away from the Rekkenmark ports. Ships can sail up them, but defenders can turn them off, dropping enemy ships some 80 - 100 feet straight down to the water below. Melvin,... have you considered making any of the warlords elven, half-elven, or dwarvish? I absolutely have! I'm thinking 1-2 dwarves plus either an elf, a half elf, or both. I've been trying to decide if the Mror Holds hater (#3 above, Lord Renter) should be a dwarf or it that would seem contrived or insipid. (I don't know your take on Karrnathi inheritance vs. meritocracy, Another area I have been wondering about myself, but am still undecided. I'm thinking that inheritance rules until a major blunder that threatens the kingdom force the hand of the king to strip the title. The king however, must not play this role to often less nobles rally against him in self preservation. Just a thought! And an appreciated one to boot.  Actually, I'd imagine him to be seen quite often. Kaius is a king with a comparably unstable rule, so he'd make certain he is seen as very active. Of course, most of his apperances would simply be employed and possibly telepathic-bonded changelings, but he would be seen... That is interesting because I got the exact opposite idea from what I read. I know a number of nobles think his drive for peace is a sign of weakness, but the fact that none have acted against his commands makes me think his rule is still pretty firm. I'm trying to set up the warlords view on restarting the war so closely balanced that that PC's decision will be the deciding factor. I also recall reading specifically that the head of the White Lions pretty much runs all of Korth's law enforcement, and that most everyone (or at least the PC's) will most likely be required to deal with Kaius' wife (I think) instead of the king himself. My memory is hazy there, I'd better look that up again. References that contradict my conclusion would be helpful.
Melvin the Mediocre 01-26-07, 02:45 PM	So another question. Let's say a warlord wants to restart the war with Thrane. Who would he most likely seek out to aid him? I do not thing the two co-conspirators would have to like each other or even have similar aims beyond restarting the war. Each side could be convinced that thier nation will prevail, or one side might not even care what the outcome of the war would be. But if both sides were actively working together to restart the war, who would the Karnathi Warlord most likely to seek out? (I have several ideas, but want other's views before I post my views which I fear are to obvious.)
Thindelock 01-26-07, 04:33 PM	Aye, that is the advantage of Eberron. It often gives only guidelines for things, which might be construed as a lack of information... but leaves the DM with a great freedom of introducing his own elements rather than following some rigid source. Quoted for truth. I'm running an Eberron game currently, and my next campaign will be Expedition to Castle Ravenloft set in Eberron. Thus, I have Strahd as a minor warlord in Karrnath (mainly an ancestral title inherited from "his forefathers," i.e. him when he was a great general under Karrn the Conquerer). I personally like the idea of there being a few big political movers-and-shakers among the warlords and the rest are small-time counts holding on to crumbling castles and non-profitable villages. It's a good way to add noir to the more rural settings, away from the big cities... the decline of the minor aristocracy as the cities grow and grow.
Cifer 01-26-07, 07:07 PM	I know a number of nobles think his drive for peace is a sign of weakness, but the fact that none have acted against his commands makes me think his rule is still pretty firm. Since he is the ruler of a feudal state, it all depends on his person. He already makes unpopular decisions - if he utters them in person, for all to see, his charisma may allay his subjects, while from afar, his commands only earn him hatred. I don't like to draw this connection, but I'm afraid it fits here: Think of Hitler and part of his regime. People cheered and were fanatic when he made a speech - but they were not half as convinced when they just got to read it because their minds then got around to realizing what he actually said instead of being swept away with the masses.
goblin_pride 01-26-07, 08:37 PM	I absolutely have! I'm thinking 1-2 dwarves plus either an elf, a half elf, or both. I've been trying to decide if the Mror Holds hater (#3 above, Lord Renter) should be a dwarf or it that would seem contrived or insipid. Nothing would be more Eberron than a dwarf warlord from Karrnath that hates the dwarves from the Mror. It paints a better picture of the nationality being a stronger tie than the race.
Yakman 01-31-07, 11:50 AM	Since he is the ruler of a feudal state, it all depends on his person. He already makes unpopular decisions - if he utters them in person, for all to see, his charisma may allay his subjects, while from afar, his commands only earn him hatred. I don't like to draw this connection, but I'm afraid it fits here: Think of Hitler and part of his regime. People cheered and were fanatic when he made a speech - but they were not half as convinced when they just got to read it because their minds then got around to realizing what he actually said instead of being swept away with the masses. I'd prefer to see Kaius III as an Ottoman Sultan. Secluded, his own advisors don't even see him--he sits behind a curtain when he gives them audience. His warlords run almost rampant, but things work because he can play them off against one another, and his own power is greater than any reasonable combination of rebels. Put that together with the idea of the blood harem and the undead serving as a sort of Jannissary army, and it works rather well.... no enormous turbans though:( http://lexicorient.com/e.o/ill/s23-ahmed3.jpg
Darakhoranon 02-01-07, 09:01 AM	This makes a lot of sense, Yakman. Sitting behind the curtain, it doesn´t even have to be Kaius himself ordering people around. A simple spell should take care of the different voice. We also shouldn´t forget that Kaius has a little problem: he´s a vampire. Meaning he´d better not go to the beach... Apart from that, if he only appeared in public at night (e.g. to open a horse fair or something like that), even the village fool would get the hint. Using changelings as doubles? Might work, but aren´t there a few spells allowing you to see someone´s true form? So the "secluded lord" style seems to be the most logical. And while someone (or something...) is sitting behind the curtains giving orders, Kaius is free to do whatever really needs to be done - incognito.
okaynowa 02-01-07, 09:53 AM	Said Yakman:I'd prefer to see Kaius III as an Ottoman Sultan. Secluded, his own advisors don't even see him--he sits behind a curtain when he gives them audience.Actually, if I remember the layout of Topkapi Palace correctly, the Sultan sat behind a grille that overlooked his cabinet minsters' meeting room. The idea there was that they'd never know when their discussions were being overheard or not. For actual audiences, the Sultan would meet people face to face. But there's another Ottoman quirk you can adapt for Kaius. By the 19th century, when the Sultan was operating out of Dolmabahce Palace, a face-to-face with the Sultan meant wading through any number of ministers, sub-alterns, secretaries, and footmen. So, a 10 AM appointment with Kaius could easily be delayed until sunset. The king's a busy man, after all.Put that together with the idea of the blood harem and the undead serving as a sort of Jannissary army, and it works rather well.... no enormous turbans though.Enormous turbans, maybe not-- but enormous ceremonial swords? Sure thing! Imagine a Karrnathi coronation sword-- a four-foot gilt blade, three or four inches wide, with calligraphic etching, jewels (and in this world, possibly magic). Just the sort of thing to hang behind the throne. As for Jannissaries-- you know they also did some marching band-type music? I've heard it-- great stuff, heavy drums and shrill reeds. It occurs to me that if anybody would have a martial music tradition, it's the Karrnathi. It's entertaining, doubles as formation training, and serves to show off your numbers during national holidays (always important when bucking for status among the other warlords).
Yakman 02-01-07, 11:23 AM	Actually, if I remember the layout of Topkapi Palace correctly, the Sultan sat behind a grille that overlooked his cabinet minsters' meeting room. The idea there was that they'd never know when their discussions were being overheard or not. For actual audiences, the Sultan would meet people face to face. That's entirely true. I actually checked what I was saying last night, and you are completely correct. But there's another Ottoman quirk you can adapt for Kaius. By the 19th century, when the Sultan was operating out of Dolmabahce Palace, a face-to-face with the Sultan meant wading through any number of ministers, sub-alterns, secretaries, and footmen. So, a 10 AM appointment with Kaius could easily be delayed until sunset. The king's a busy man, after all. Indeed. And such meetings with the Sultan were brief--I was reading about an English Ambassador during the reign of Suleiman the Magnificent. He had to wait for weeks for an audience, and was bringing so many gifts that 100 slaves had to carry everything (compared to the Venetians, who sent four Parmesean cheese wheels!). He waits for hours and hours to see the Sultan, and when he finally gets to the audience chamber, has exactly enough time to bow and kiss the Sultan's hand before he is escorted out. I can see Kaius doing that as well. Enormous turbans, maybe not-- but enormous ceremonial swords? Sure thing! Imagine a Karrnathi coronation sword-- a four-foot gilt blade, three or four inches wide, with calligraphic etching, jewels (and in this world, possibly magic). Just the sort of thing to hang behind the throne. :devil: As for Jannissaries-- you know they also did some marching band-type music? I've heard it-- great stuff, heavy drums and shrill reeds. It occurs to me that if anybody would have a martial music tradition, it's the Karrnathi. It's entertaining, doubles as formation training, and serves to show off your numbers during national holidays (always important when bucking for status among the other warlords). A lot of Mozart's work was based off Jannisary music. There's a great CD I have that has both authentic Jannissary music and Western compositions based off of it. Highly recommended. http://www.amazon.com/Dream-Orient-Wolfgang-Amadeus-Mozart/dp/B00007L9PT/sr=1-1/qid=1170346953/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-8737572-8673404?ie=UTF8&s=music Also, maybe we can play off of this, and incorporate music into the Karrnathi Army--the undead are directed by specialized Bards?
okaynowa 02-01-07, 12:39 PM	Also, maybe we can play off of this, and incorporate music into the Karrnathi Army--the undead are directed by specialized Bards?I believe there's a feat in Libris Mortis that allows bardic music stunts to affect creatures with the Undead type; there may be a similar feat in some other books as well. If a bard could inspire (buff) the undead, the cleric would be able to conserve magic for the living troops.
Cifer 02-01-07, 01:54 PM	Using changelings as doubles? Might work, but aren´t there a few spells allowing you to see someone´s true form? Would you really want to use divination spells on a sovereign? I'm not sure whether that would be considered polite... And if it is really done, well, it's a body double - of course Kaius is a busy man who is also concerned with his own security. We also shouldn´t forget that Kaius has a little problem: he´s a vampire. Meaning he´d better not go to the beach... If there is a vampire who could afford an item to ward off sunlight, it's the king of Karrnath, especially if the item is commissioned for a "valuable agent of the crown" - which is not that unlikely, given how deep Karrnath is still in undead. Kaius' problem is pretty much exactly the one Machiavelli described in his Prince: He is a king in a kingdom with influential nobles whom he can't just silence. I don't know that much about the Ottoman empire, but I'd guess it was governed by the sultan only, who could and did replace local governors at a whim so his subjects wouldn't get attached to them.
okaynowa 02-01-07, 02:27 PM	I don't know that much about the Ottoman empire, but I'd guess it was governed by the sultan only, who could and did replace local governors at a whim so his subjects wouldn't get attached to them.The Ottoman Empire had a pretty strong central authority. The Sultan delegated certain powers to a cabinet of viziers-- though the Grand Vizier, as a sort of cabinet chief, could be pretty strong himself. I don't know off-hand how often provincial rulers were replaced, but at its height the empire included some pretty diverse people, and the central government had a reputation for not interfering too much with locals (as long as they provided taxes and conscripts). Replacing governors whimsically would be destabilizing, rather than calming. Where was I going with this? Ah. Yes, most Sultans had both the political authority and military power to crack down on dissenters. By contrast, Kaius has to contend with warlords who are simultaneously more independent (they have their own lands and armies) and co-ordinated (they're members of the same culture, and often the same academy). The nobility of Karrnath are more like Kaius's peers than his vassals. (I lived in Istanbul for a few years-- all this talk about the Ottoman Empire gets me going off on tangents.)
Yakman 02-05-07, 11:11 AM	The Ottoman Empire had a pretty strong central authority. The Sultan delegated certain powers to a cabinet of viziers-- though the Grand Vizier, as a sort of cabinet chief, could be pretty strong himself. I don't know off-hand how often provincial rulers were replaced, but at its height the empire included some pretty diverse people, and the central government had a reputation for not interfering too much with locals (as long as they provided taxes and conscripts). Replacing governors whimsically would be destabilizing, rather than calming. Where was I going with this? Ah. Yes, most Sultans had both the political authority and military power to crack down on dissenters. By contrast, Kaius has to contend with warlords who are simultaneously more independent (they have their own lands and armies) and co-ordinated (they're members of the same culture, and often the same academy). The nobility of Karrnath are more like Kaius's peers than his vassals. We can adopt this to Kaius in several ways. The Ottoman Sultan maintained control of the Empire through several means: 1) He was the Caliph, or spiritual leader of Mohammedanism. As such, he was able to use authority in a similar way that any powerful religious leader could do. We cannot, for obvious reasons, use this with Kaius. However, it was one of the weaker levers of authority that the Sultan had. 2) He was in possession of the wealthiest, and central lands of the Empire. He could defeat almost any individual governor without having to call upon his subordinates. This can be applied to Kaius. 3) The Sultan was able to co-opt religious 'minorities' (Christians were the majority population in the Ottoman Empire until the 17th century). This gave him powerful economic and political support against would-be rivals. Christians and Jews, although not factors militarily, were loathe to give aid to men who wanted to supplant their protector. We can apply this to Kaius--make some of his warlords anti-demihuman--and we can use the ~40% of Karrnath that is not human as a pillar of his rule. 4) The Jannissary Corps. Legions of slave soldiers who served only the Sultan. The most powerful army in the world until the late 16th century. Feared by all. Loyal only to the Sultan. We can bring this to Khorvaire in the form of the undead legions, if we make Kaius personally in charge of the necromancers--this is already suggested in the ECS, as the Chief Necromancer appears to be Kaius' chief advisor--or Grand Vizier as the Ottomans might say (if they spoke english!). No place of enormous turbans though :weep:
okaynowa 02-05-07, 11:58 AM	Said Yakman:We can apply this to Kaius--make some of his warlords anti-demihuman--and we can use the ~40% of Karrnath that is not human as a pillar of his rule.Belki; fakat boyle bir durum Eberron icin uygun degil, bence. (Man, that's hard to say without the umlauts.) You could certainly run it that way, but I'd offer just a couple objections: According to the ECS, in the Five Nations nationality matters more that race. Having a significant number of anti-demihuman warlords would run counter to that tone. You could do it, but... it seems like between the Valenar, Thrane, the Mourn Lands, and the Emerald Claw, they've got enough to worry about. Some of the warlords themselves may be demi-human (elven, dwarven, etc). Not a strong argument, really, since warlords antagonize each other anyway, but if you've got a mixed population, why waste resources? Karrnath has staffing problems as it is, otherwise they wouldn't have resorted to undead. Anti-demihuman warlords would alienate House Jorasco, which is based in Karrnath. If you're going to be picking fights as a way of life, the Healer's Guild is not someone you want to antagonize. I think your second and fourth points are strong enough to keep Kaius on top. Simple personality conflict between the warlords could cover the first and third. Serife!
Yakman 02-05-07, 12:04 PM	Said Yakman:Belki; fakat boyle bir durum Eberron icin uygun degil, bence. (Man, that's hard to say without the umlauts.) You could certainly run it that way, but I'd offer just a couple objections: According to the ECS, in the Five Nations nationality matters more that race. Having a significant number of anti-demihuman warlords would run counter to that tone. You could do it, but... it seems like between the Valenar, Thrane, the Mourn Lands, and the Emerald Claw, they've got enough to worry about. Some of the warlords themselves may be demi-human (elven, dwarven, etc). Not a strong argument, really, since warlords antagonize each other anyway, but if you've got a mixed population, why waste resources? Karrnath has staffing problems as it is, otherwise they wouldn't have resorted to undead. Anti-demihuman warlords would alienate House Jorasco, which is based in Karrnath. If you're going to be picking fights as a way of life, the Healer's Guild is not someone you want to antagonize. I think your second and fourth points are strong enough to keep Kaius on top. Simple personality conflict between the warlords could cover the first and third. Serife! I agree, it was a weak point. I was thinking that you could have a bit of the 'Caliph' if you were to have Kaius co-opt the Blood of Vol--which would be really interesting, with him and Vol battling over the Church...
Melvin the Mediocre 02-22-07, 07:17 PM	WARNING! Spoilers ahead! I'm about to expose some big old nasty surprises from Whisper of the Vampire's Blase. If you are not a DM and have not already played through the module I would encourage you to stop reading at this point. Seriously. Just go somewhere else. I mean there's lots of other threads to read. Go try one. OK. So no one is going to get anything ruined here, right? I'll put it in nearly invisible font just to be sure. (What is the "spoiler" tag savy people use?) I just picked up the module Whisper of a Vampire's Blade mostly for the fluff. Imagine my surprise when I saw that there were 13 blades made for the Karnath Warlords. So I started to wonder, what happened to them all? How many do you think are still in the hands of the actual warlords? And how do you think Kaius feels about them?
Cifer 02-22-07, 08:04 PM	(What is the "spoiler" tag savy people use?) That would be [ SBLOCK=NameofSpoiler] [ /SBLOCK] (without the spaces, of course)
Ramses III 02-26-07, 11:56 PM	I prefer the idea of there being fewer actual warlords, as to my understanding only the most powerful of the Karrnathi nobles -- those who can actually muster and lead full armies -- hold that rank. The main power base of these warlords is their military might, derived from a feudal system wherein they are owed military service by their vassal lords and can call up peasant levies. They also, per the ECS, each control a fortress town called a "rath." The maps only mark the locations of Loran Rath and Tanar Rath, though I don't think it's the intent of the writers (nor in the best interests of an individual DM in most cases) for there to be only 2 warlords. Lords Loran and Tanar are described as channeling people's dissatisfaction with Kaius's peaceful ways to their own ends, mainly trying to start another war. IMC I figure there are about 5 nobles who hold the rank of Warlord; there's only one such that I'm using as a key part of my current campaign, so he's the only one I've fleshed out. World creation is fun, but I don't like to make more work for myself than I need to do, especially since I'm already eyeballs-deep in various writing and gaming commitments.
Melvin the Mediocre 02-27-07, 11:56 AM	They also, per the ECS, each control a fortress town called a "rath." The maps only mark the locations of Loran Rath and Tanar Rath, though I don't think it's the intent of the writers (nor in the best interests of an individual DM in most cases) for there to be only 2 warlords. Lords Loran and Tanar are described... HOLY BATSMOKE!!!! How did I miss all that? Do you remember what page it was on? (Although I can probably look up rath or Tanar in the index.)