Post/Author/DateTime	Post
johnnype 02-21-07, 05:56 PM	Do we have any idea of what the stats are for these characters? Any hints as to their weapons and capabilities? i'm reading book two of the trilogy and am a bit curious.
Yakman 02-21-07, 05:58 PM	Do we have any idea of what the stats are for these characters? Any hints as to their weapons and capabilities? i'm reading book two of the trilogy and am a bit curious. well, they all die in book three, so it's skeletons for the lot of them. :ayyyy!:
Hellcow 02-21-07, 07:30 PM	Honestly, I'm hesitant to post them, because it takes some of the mystery away. However, I will say that I DID stat out the main characters at the start of book one, and as much as possible held to those capabilities (with a minor level bump) throughout the series. As a rule, I can tell you exactly what it is Lei does when she does an infusion, for example. But for now, I'd prefer to see what other people THINK their stats are than put my stats on the table.
InfinityStar8 02-21-07, 09:19 PM	But for now, I'd prefer to see what other people THINK their stats are than put my stats on the table. Hear that all? Hellcow himself how thrown down the gauntlet! Let's see if we can do it!
UnderworldLord 02-21-07, 09:39 PM	Daine and Pierce have levels in fighter, and Jode has a few in rogue, maybe combat medic. Daine and Pierce seem to be most like complimenting fighters, with Jode as the medic, and Lei was the magic reinforcement/artillery for the group. That should give you a basic idea on them.
Artector 02-21-07, 11:13 PM	I'd need to re-read a fair bit... But I'd say they are all about 6-9th level when the enter Sharn, the fight with the Mindflayer would have been tough, but passable for 9th level characters. Daine's definatly a fighter, he might have the Two-weapon chain, since he does use the sword and dagger a fair bit, though I need to check on that. Pierce, archer-archetype fighter. He could be a ranger, but I don't think he demonstrated much in the way of nature-esque skills. Lakashtai... hmm, definatly a psion, I'd guess she's a Telepath. She didn't use many discipline-specific powers, and she used her racial mindlink ability quite a bit. I'd truly need to re-read before I try any more specific than that. (Last time I read them I was in a car somewhere in Canada.)
Ricohard_Draconis 02-22-07, 02:29 AM	I'd say ranger for pierce... yes he's not that naturey but he is very good at camoflage and hiding. though what his favored enemy would be i'm not sure.
Yadot 02-22-07, 02:33 AM	I would think that at the end of City of Towers Diane is a 8th-9th level Fighter, Jode is a multi-class Rogue2-3/ Combat Medic. Lei would be a 9th level Articifer or 10th level depending how many times she Inflicted Serious Wounds. Pierce is a Ranger2-3/ Fighter 6-8. As for Lakashtai, she probably is a Telepath or Seer. She doesn't use enough powers for me to tell the level though.
UnderworldLord 02-22-07, 10:52 AM	I wouldn't really consider lakashtai, as she seems to be an empty vessel. Pierce might, alternatively, have a level or two or roge for the hiding abilities. As for combat medic.. not sure, but don't you need some divine casting somewhere?
johnnype 02-22-07, 12:14 PM	I'm not done with the series but from what I've read so far it seems to me like pierce is probably a scout. I'd say 10th level or so. Lei is an artificer, also 10th level or so. She has an interesting vest and that staff she carries is rather powerful. Daine strikes me a s a fighter and his sword is probably a legacy item of some kind. Lakashtai is a telepath. I'll have a bunch of questions for you Keith when I finish the series but until then I'll keep reading.
Hellcow 02-22-07, 03:23 PM	Lakashtai... hmm, definatly a psion, I'd guess she's a Telepath. She didn't use many discipline-specific powers... Actually, she uses psionic charm and psionic suggestion a LOT... she just does it subtly. Read her scenes closely and you'll see that people have a tendancy to just do what she says, even when it doesn't necessarily seem to make sense. And, of course, there's a critical use of false sensory input. So it's all about interpretation of effect; she doesn't say "DO MY BIDDING" - but her telepathic abilities are reflected by her apparent charisma. Essentially, when she says "Lower your weapons" and people do, well, *I* know that's because she's just used suggestion... but it's not clearly apparent to everyone in the room. (She actually hints at this at some point later, when she says something to the effect of being to tired to talk their way out of a bad situation.) So yes, telepath is her psionic specialty, though she also uses a number of non-specific powers.
leiff 02-22-07, 03:25 PM	Level wise, I couldn't estimate the party since novels don't full translate into game mechanics. Daine: full fighter. He is a great fighter with limited skills. He also uses a lot of feats, such as twf, possibly improved disarm and/or sunder. And if he had either of those then of course he'd need the pre-reqs (combat expertise and power attack respectively). Lei: her class is easy, full artifier. What her 'race' is though is where it gets screwy. Pierce: I'd say he is a mix between ranger and fighter. He has very good stealth and detection skills, filling the role of scout. Jode: I'd almost say he was full rogue. He was the face of the group, and while he was the group healer he did not use his ability often enough to suggest he had another other then basic dragonmark feats. Xu: She would be the most interesting to take apart. I'd say a mix of monk and ninja, mostly ninja since she favored weapons instead of unarmed, she just had the capability to fight unarmed.
Hellcow 02-22-07, 03:27 PM	I'll point out that the original poster is in the middle of The Shattered Land, so people may want to spoiler-block comments about Gates of Night.
Artector 02-22-07, 03:29 PM	*snip* Sorry, I meant that she didn't use a lot of other discipline-specific powers. I was pretty sure she used many subtle Telepath-specific powers. Maybe I'll re-read the books during Spring Break.
Roland the Crownbreaker 02-22-07, 04:57 PM	For Pierce I'd think a non-spellcasting variant ranger (he seems to be more of a stand and shoot archer as opposed to a skirmisher), Daine and Lei are obviously fighter and artificer, and Jode seems to be a rogue with several feats devoted to his dragonmarks, or perhaps a Rogue/Dragonmark Heir (although he doesn't seem to have favored in house) During the parts before the Mourning he seems to be making heavy use of his healing powers. Too much (to me at least) for it to be merely a least or lesser mark.
Nightshade 02-22-07, 05:07 PM	Considering the number of times Jode utilizes his healing power, I'd say that he has to have a few levels of Dragonmarked Heir (at least 2 or 3). And not having Favored in House now does not mean that he didn't have it at some point in the past. He just may have lost favor somehow and gone back to Rogue levels. He definitely would have cross-class ranks in Heal, however, if he's not a Combat Medic. Pierce, a Ranger with 2 or 3 levels and 6 levels in Fighter. No animal companion so no higher than 3rd lvl Ranger. Lei - 8th - 9th level Artificer. Daine - definitely a Fighter, probably with the Leadership feat.
The_Last_Rogue 02-22-07, 05:18 PM	In all honesty, I never saw Pierce as a Ranger . . .then again my memory fails me a bit -- does he actually track anyone throughout the books. I know he shadows people, this led me to believe he is a Scout/Fighter combination.
ArcTan 02-22-07, 05:39 PM	Lei: her class is easy, full artifier. What her 'race' is though is where it gets screwy. There was a thread where someone wanted to do a humaniform warforged, and basically all you really need is to give her Unarmored Body at 1st level and a +10 bonus to Disguise checks as human. Kind of underpowered -- Unarmored Body is, mechanically, a suboptimal feat -- but works fine if all you want to do is play this idea. If you want to make it more interesting, of course, there's a lot more you could do.
Wrathamon 02-26-07, 08:52 PM	But for now, I'd prefer to see what other people THINK their stats are than put my stats on the table. I am more curious about the strange warforged from book 2 then the main characters. :) Would those be templates?
Hellcow 02-26-07, 09:04 PM	Would those be templates? While you could make templates that would encompass their abilities, in my opinion they are the result of intentional design... that is to say, Hydra's communal mind is not something that could be "plugged into" any warforged, but rather Hydra was designed with a group of bodies from the begining. If you haven't read it yet, Gates of Night provides a little more insight into the origins of two of the three and the source of their unusual abilities. As with the other characters, I do know how I'd stat Harmattan, but I don't especially want to limit other people's imaginations.
bholdr_mage 02-26-07, 09:39 PM	I'd love to see harmattan as a PrC. How bout it? Please? :D
Wrathamon 02-26-07, 09:53 PM	I'd love to see harmattan as a PrC. How bout it? Please? :D I picture it as a swarm (if I am getting the NPC correct) template with some other spell like abilities.
Paranoia833 02-26-07, 11:19 PM	My guess after reading the trilogy was that they were all approximately 13 by the end of it. Assuming all of the characters except Xu and Lakashtai (Hellcow said the former was higher leveled and I suspect Lakashtai was considerably more powerful than her cohorts) then we can make the following statements: The absolute minimum level they can be is 7th as that's the minimum level Lei has to be to craft wands, which we know she can do. Likewise I don't believe we ever saw Lei crafting a ring, so while it's a leap I'd say 13 is probably the maximum. After that I'd put it a 12/13 specifically due to Daine's dragonmark. Assuming a Khyber/Tarkanan/Whatever mark follows approximately the same in game rules as a Siberys mark then 12 would be the minimum level he could take the class. Assuming it manifests at second level that wouldmake Daine level 13 by GoNs end. I'm assuming he took it at the minimum level possible since I'm assuming Daine is the same level as Lei. Now as for Lakashtai: Definately an Inspired telepath, I'm guessing Tsucora, though she probably got bumped up to Kalaraq during GoN for the whole 'nearly taking over the world' thing (and on the extreme off chance she survived Daine's explodey dragonmark and wasn't infected with icky Khyber-taint she'd probably be busted all the way down to Tsoreva for letting a bunch of do-gooder adventurers waltz in and break her doomsday device as if she were an Emerald Claw supervillian). I justify this assertion by the fact that when her true form was described in GoN she looked far more like a Kalaraq than any other breed of Quori, though I doubt she was a Kalaraq all along as otherwise she'd just have mind-seeded Daine soon after meeting him and saved herself a lot of work. Not to mention that it would be very odd for a Kalaraq to be running around Khorvaire on errands when Secrets of Sarlona seems to state that Tirashana herself is only an usvapna. Anyway given that unlike humans Inspired character levels really do seem to indicate their place in the quori heirarchy, I'd put Lakashtai above Ambassador Jorasesh and below Tirashana. Assuming she can't mind seed (as she really does have no real reason not to use it on Daine if possesses that power, other than it would make a boring storyline) I'd put her around level 14. Pure guess though.
Hellcow 02-27-07, 11:21 AM	Spoiler blocks below deal with Gates of Night. My guess after reading the trilogy was that they were all approximately 13 by the end of it. Personally, I seen most of them at around 9th level by the end, but you do make some good points. Specifically... After that I'd put it a 12/13 specifically due to Daine's dragonmark. Assuming a Khyber/Tarkanan/Whatever mark follows approximately the same in game rules as a Siberys mark then 12 would be the minimum level he could take the class. This is a perfectly sound assumption. However, the key is that in game terms, I don't consider Daine to be an Heir of Siberys. He acquired his mark against his will, by drinking the Jode potion. More important, he can't control it - the one time it activates, he's not even sure what it's done. Essentially, as a DM, this is something I would drop on the player as a plot device - but not something I'd make him spend a level on immediately. Now, if he learned to control the mark and use it when he wanted, I would likely either make him dedicate a level to represent that understanding, or burn some XP towards it (as if he was making a magic item). I'm assuming he took it at the minimum level possible since I'm assuming Daine is the same level as Lei. Again, a good assumption, and certainly true throughout the series... but I'll just say that it may not be true by the time the book ends.
Darrek 02-27-07, 03:15 PM	:( I have made up stat blocks for all of the heroes that I am really quite proud of. Quite logically indicated under the following headings: "Character" "Power demonstrated (book/page number)" "Class Feature or item responsible" "Suspected build at the time" It shows a very nice, reasonable progression through City of Towers and The Shattered Land. Unfortunately Gates of Night is not being published in Canada, so it's going to take a cross-border trip before I can ever complete the list.
Edymnion 02-27-07, 08:54 PM	We know for a fact what level Lei has to be, at the minimum, by the end of City of Towers. She uses a Spell Storing Infusion to preform a short range teleport off the mindflayer's table. Spell Storing Infusions are limited to 4th level spells. The only spell in the PHB that can do this is Dimension Door. An artificer can only infuse a spell in this manner of half their level. Seeing that DD is a 4th level spell, that means Lei can be no less than 8th level by that final battle. Also, if memory serves, Keith mentioned that he originally planned for them to be a lower level than that, but needed that teleport for the fight, and I believe that is the bump in level he was referring to. And again, if memory serves, I believe I recall Keith saying that he pictured Pierce as having the Scout class from Complete Adventurer, just that he didn't really use the Skirmish ability much. That gives him full ranger stealth, he's still good with the bow, and doesn't give him any spellcasting ability. I would likely multiclass him with Fighter though. Jode is straight up Rogue, in my book. He has max ranks in Healing, but he's every inch the Rogue. Daine is obviously pure Fighter.
DrunkMonk 02-27-07, 10:15 PM	I agree with Edymnion. If we ignore, the information we get later in books 2 & 3, and the need for LA for Lei and Pierce, my best guess would put them at level 8 at the end of book 1. Lei = 8th level artificer, Jode a 8th rouge (with feats that focus on his dragonmark and healing skill), Daine would have been a 8th level fighter (two weapon fighting, sunder, improved 2w fighting, + ?). Pierce was the hard one for me (assuming everyone is the same level). I would like to say scout 2/fighter 6 with lots of bow feats. Pierce would be an excellent character to take into Order of the Bow Initiate. Jode would have made a good Bard. Most interesting member of the group in my opinion(rouges always are). I would have made the female personality warforged a Rouge/Fighter. I would have used the alternate race Scout, and just made her medium sized. DM PS - The one I would like see stats on is the Gnome in Sharn. She gave Jode a run for his money for interesting points.
trevg 02-27-07, 11:14 PM	:( I have made up stat blocks for all of the heroes that I am really quite proud of. Quite logically indicated under the following headings: "Character" "Power demonstrated (book/page number)" "Class Feature or item responsible" "Suspected build at the time" It shows a very nice, reasonable progression through City of Towers and The Shattered Land. Unfortunately Gates of Night is not being published in Canada, so it's going to take a cross-border trip before I can ever complete the list. It's odd that you can't find it, I'm in Regina, SK, and I had "Gates of Night" less than 2 weeks after it was released in the US. My FLGS was able to order the boook right from WotC. Trevor
Lancer2010 02-28-07, 07:43 PM	You know, I always had a suspicion that Jode had at least a couple of levels in bard. The way Keith explained Jode telling the guard outside Sharn the story made it sound like he was using a spell or something, or at least it did to me. I saw Pierce as a ranger, but I don't know much about the scout class.
Edymnion 02-28-07, 07:48 PM	I saw Pierce as a ranger, but I don't know much about the scout class.Well, he could be a Ranger, if he only has a Wis of 10, because he doesn't cast spells, and he's just not the kind of character that ever would start, IMO. And he would have to be a solid class, or multiclass of things with Hide and Move Silent as class skills. He is supposed to be a virtual ghost when it comes to moving unseen and unheard. Every time somebody makes a referance to how well somebody else is at stealth, they compare them to Pierce. I suppose he could be a Ranger/Fighter with enough Ranger levels to keep his stealth skills maxxed out, but with enough Fighter to prevent him from having spells.
Kaodi 02-28-07, 11:40 PM	Lei's race is obviously Cyberrlon, hehehe... Really, I'd have to have been paying more attention to those details, on purpose, to really stat them out. I'm sure one day Keith will deign to end our torment and give us the stats. That, or we snatch his little stuffed friend and use him as our bargaining chip (don't worry, we'll treat 'im real nice like :D ).
Edymnion 03-01-07, 08:25 AM	Well, Lei is officially an Eberron setting NPC, and potentiall Pierce as well. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/Dragonmarked_Gallery/101294.jpg Thats from Dragonmarked. The art gallery picture doesn't have the text on it, but the image in the book specifically calls the woman in the picture Lei. And this character is dressed in green, and does have red hair. The WF is not named, but the impression is that it is Pierce. The novels may not be canon, but this does put Lei officially into the setting.
BadDM 03-01-07, 03:59 PM	ok but what about poor Xu, and more importantly what about the travelers tooth
UnderworldLord 03-01-07, 08:38 PM	Xu I'm thinking ninja... because that would be friggin awesome.
Beleriphon 03-02-07, 02:45 AM	In all honesty, I never saw Pierce as a Ranger . . .then again my memory fails me a bit -- does he actually track anyone throughout the books. I know he shadows people, this led me to believe he is a Scout/Fighter combination. Actually he does, on several occasions make use of what would be the track feat. While he doesn't have an animal companion its not strictly necessary for the class, as for spell casting we're assuming that he has a high enough relevant stat to do so. I really would put Pierce at Ranger 8 or 9, he's clearly gone with the archery tree and possess the Mithril Body feat. I'm basing the last part largely on the descriptions of him, but it certainly seems to fit. As for favoured enemy I'm going with elf. Think about the description of how he played games with elves as a scout and guard. That seems like a pretty strong indication towards that being his favoured enemy.
Edymnion 03-02-07, 07:36 AM	Xu I'm thinking ninja... because that would be friggin awesome.Nope, sorry, but no character that has "Ninja" on their character sheet has ever, in the history of the world, been "awesome". Xu is a monk.
BrotherDog 03-02-07, 08:06 AM	The best class(es) that seem to fit Xu are primarily SwordSage and Scout. Much of her fighting style seems to follow Shadow Hand and Setting Sun, maybe even a level or 2 of Shadow Sun Ninja PrC rather than regular Ninja. Plus I got the feel that she did skirmish damage instead of sneak attack.
Edymnion 03-02-07, 08:23 AM	Yeah, Xu's entire fighting style was about keeping on the move and delivering single devistating attacks. Scout works well for her.
Gorgon_Heap 03-03-07, 12:11 AM	Upon Hellcow's mention of their being at abour 9th level at the end of book 3, I'd say that does in fact work with the math I'd done internally throughout. Tried and True Method: No matter what happens to others, the best way to find out a party's level in a novel is through the spellcaster. Take the highest spell they cast in the book and work from there. At one point in book two, Lei crafts wands and uses possibly a fouth level spell in Xen'Drik. That makes them 6-7th level in the first book, 7-8th in the second and 8-9th in the last. It is also important to consider the setting, folks. Ebberon is the lowest-level setting, so having major characters in novels in the high levels (11+) would actually put it at odds with the feel of the setting in general.
Gorgon_Heap 03-03-07, 12:15 AM	As an aside, I hope we can expect to see something else from these characters in the future, because I was ... gravely disappointed by the end of book three. In fact, unless it is about these characters, I've promised myself to forego any Ebberon novels outside the two trilogies I've yet to finish.
Edymnion 03-03-07, 02:27 PM	At one point in book two, Lei crafts wands and uses possibly a fouth level spell in Xen'Drik. That makes them 6-7th level in the first book, 7-8th in the second and 8-9th in the last.Your numbers are off. I already mentioned earlier in this thread, but Lei uses a spell storing infusion for Dimension Door, which is a 4th level spell, meaning she can be no lower than 8th level by the end of the first book.
The Dreaming Duck 03-03-07, 06:35 PM	Your numbers are off. I already mentioned earlier in this thread, but Lei uses a spell storing infusion for Dimension Door, which is a 4th level spell, meaning she can be no lower than 8th level by the end of the first book. I'd have to disagree. As I read it, Lei uses dimension door on page 161 of The Shattered Land, when she teleports a group of people hundreds of feet. At the time, she says "I understand the basic principles that govern motion, but to transport all of us at once - I've never tried to channel that level of power before." Manewhile, on page 292 of City of Towers, Lei uses a spell that transports her across a room. It only moves her, and it's specifically noted that "the range was limited." To me, this sounds like dimension hop from PHB II. Single target, short range, second level. Possibly increased to third level to double the range. Even with such a boost, the most it would require would be a sixth level artificer. She uses a teleportation effect, yes - but given the short range, the single target, and the fact that what clearly is dimension door in TSL is called out as being a stretch for her, I certainly think this is a lower level effect.
DrunkMonk 03-04-07, 03:24 AM	Are you sure about dimension hop/phb II and its release date? I thought that book one was published before that. I may be wrong, but I seem to recall a KB story that the characters got a level increase based on that scene. I am normally wrong, so you may want to ignore me. DM
The Dreaming Duck 03-04-07, 10:55 AM	Are you sure about dimension hop/phb II and its release date? I'm certain PHB II came out after City of Towers. However, dimension hop is simply an example; I'm sure there's other limited teleportation spells out there (if anything, I think blink could be used for the same effect, though it should then last longer). Likewise, since dimension hop is essentially based on the House Lyrandar dragonmark, it's possible KB either had access to the spell or designed something similar beforehand. Again, to me, the key is that the spell used in CoT doesn't appear to have the power of dimension door (which could have teleported the lot of them out of the area); instead it's a single-person effect and the short-term range (within a single room!) is specifically called out. Whether or not dimension hop was published, the EFFECT is far more like dimension hop than dimension door - single person, short range, compared to multiple people and 400-ft range in the following book. Meanwhile, in the following book, Lei specifically says that she's never called on that level of power before, and further describes how dangerous it's going to be for her. If you read the "consequences", she's not just talking about the use of dimension door, she's talking about the mishap associated with a failed Use Magic Device roll. In other words, she's never tried to use a 4th-level spell with spell storing item, and she's not sure she can make the UMD check. Essentially, Shattered Land seems to be going out of its way to say "Her level's gone up, and she's trying something she couldn't have done before!" There are other effects besides dimension door that could accompish what she did in City of Towers, thus I hold to the lower-level interpretation. I'd say she's 7th-level in CoT, rising to 8th by TSL.
Gorgon_Heap 03-04-07, 11:11 AM	The Dreaming Duck, thank you. Such was the gist of my post, though it's been so long since I read CoT I had forgotten that bit. The incident in TSL is exaclty what I was referring to.
Alpha_Moose 03-04-07, 05:35 PM	Doesn't Lei mention that she hasn't mastered the fifth circle? I'm guessing she meant 5th level infusions.
Edymnion 03-04-07, 08:00 PM	The Dreaming Duck, thank you. Such was the gist of my post, though it's been so long since I read CoT I had forgotten that bit. The incident in TSL is exaclty what I was referring to.But the fact still stands that the spell you refer to was not written at the time the book was, and Keith has said, repeatedly on the boards, that he had to increase their levels at the end in order for that fight to work. If you can find a short range teleportation spell in the PHB that works, go for it. But I highly doubt you can reconsile having that infusion be a 2nd level spell and Keith having to ramp up their levels so she could cast it. And while its true that the novel came out while the sourcebook was being written, you also have to remember that the novel had to be written well before it could be printed and released, meaning it was that much earlier than the PHB2.
Kreistor2 03-04-07, 09:56 PM	Dimension Leap is written in the ECS as a Spell-like ability, which closely matches the description given above of this short range teleport. Keith may have just used dramatic license to allow that as a spell. Edit: Also note that as a designer, Keith invents many things that neer see print. He may very well have created Dimension Leap the spell which was later nixed as a Spell but retained as a spell-like ability for the Mark of Passage. Keith won't always be fully aware of which of his ideas didn't make it in, and may have just used Dimension Leap as the original spell. This was something Monte Cook wrote about once. He is not the ruleslawyer for his group. He has (had?) someone else that kept tabs of the official rules for him, because Monte remembered so many versions of the rules that he didn't know which ones were the final versions.
The Dreaming Duck 03-05-07, 11:02 AM	But the fact still stands that the spell you refer to was not written at the time the book was... But what difference does this make? If you'd asked me a year ago, I might have said that Lei had to be eighth level. But now PHB II is out, and as a result, Lei can perform her actions in that scene without being eighth level. If your concern is author's original intent, that's fine - but if it's depicting the level of the characters based on the abilities they use, using all materials presently available, she can be seventh level. In my opinion, this is EXACTLY why Keith HASN'T posted stats for the characters - because rules can change. Until the characters "officially" exist, they can adapt to these changes. If Lei was written up today, she could and in fact should be seventh level. If you limit yourself to rules available at the time the book was created... does that mean that you can't even use novel characters from the 2E era in a 3.5 campaign?
Edymnion 03-05-07, 01:16 PM	does that mean that you can't even use novel characters from the 2E era in a 3.5 campaign?No, I don't, but then, I don't use any character from any novel in any game I run. If they're not in a sourcebook as an established NPC, and just show up as a character in a novel, they don't get added to my games. I may add an NPC based on them, but I never just lift a character out of a book like that. My PCs will *NEVER* meet Lei, Pierce, Daine, Jode, or anybody else from the Dreaming Dark trilogy. I can go through their mechanics as an intellectual excersize, like I am here, but I won't use them. And for the record, there is a differance between trying to reconstruct the character the author intended, and trying to rebuild them. If an author says a character is 10th level, then they're tenth level, even if you can find a way for them to do the same things at 2nd level. You can always rebuild them at 2nd, but if our express goal is to try and get as close to Keith's version as we can, then we need to use the same rules he did when he built them.
The Dreaming Duck 03-05-07, 02:31 PM	if our express goal is to try and get as close to Keith's version as we can, then we need to use the same rules he did when he built them. But you're assuming that KEITH'S version remains static - that just because a spell didn't exist when he wrote the first book, he's not accounting for it later on. I maintain that the situation in The Shattered Land is a clear use of dimension door, and that when she uses it, Lei states that she's never used such a powerful effect before, and that, in effect, she doesn't know if she can make the UMD check. PHB II wasn't out when Keith wrote City of Towers. But was it out when he wrote Shattered Land? If so, I'd submit that he may have adjusted his view of the character. Otherwise, what on earth is Lei talking about? Why would she say she's never used a spell with that level of power when we know that she has? Taking CoT in isolation and considering only the sources out at the time, the 8th level interpretation is valid. But when you consider the series as a whole and spells available throughout the series, it's both possible and plausible for Lei to remain at 7th level at the end of CoT.
Roland the Crownbreaker 03-05-07, 07:37 PM	Also keep in mind that a game designer is quite likely to see new things well before we are even aware of them. One of the perks of the job.
Edymnion 03-05-07, 08:30 PM	Also keep in mind that a game designer is quite likely to see new things well before we are even aware of them. One of the perks of the job.Also keep in mind that Keith is a freelancer. He doesn't get consulted every time something is done. The only time he sees information before everybody else is when it directly pertains to what he's been hired to do. Half the time it seems like he's not even entirely sure what other people are writing in the same book as him, so I highly doubt he's part of the Developer's Book of the Month Club. Seems to me they keep him basically on a need to know basis.
Roland the Crownbreaker 03-06-07, 04:30 PM	Originally posted by Edymnion Also keep in mind that Keith is a freelancer. He doesn't get consulted every time something is done. The only time he sees information before everybody else is when it directly pertains to what he's been hired to do. Half the time it seems like he's not even entirely sure what other people are writing in the same book as him, so I highly doubt he's part of the Developer's Book of the Month Club. Seems to me they keep him basically on a need to know basis. The mere fact that he is a designer of any type gives him more access to things than you or I. I can't be entirely sure of this, but I am quite certain that anyone whose name appears on the cover of a book has read the thing (or at least parts of it) well before you or I. Perhaps even before any of us on these boards were aware of it even existing. The point I am trying to make (and which seems to have been missed entirely) is that one cannot rule out effects based on the relative publishing dates of the novels and rulkebooks.