List of Daelkyr? [Archive] - Wizards Community

List of Daelkyr? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TiwazTyrsfist
07-27-07, 08:45 PM So, I was reading through some of the dragonshards, and in the Master of Magic dragonshard, it had a section on Orlassk, the lord of stone.

In a couple novels, we've seen the Lord of Silence (or was it master?), and a Lord of Blades (presumably) not related to the warforged of the same moniker.

And in the Dragonshard it mentioned another Daelkyr named Belashyrra who is somehow linked to either eyes, beholders, or both.

So, here's my question.

Is there an official list somewhere of the Daelkyr in Eberron? Even a partial list if it's beyond these four?

If so, where?

Or is this like a secret list that Hellcow has on his computer, but hasn't shared because he's using them as plot elements? Because I can accept that too, if it's the case. Just curious.
Rechan
07-28-07, 12:58 AM Remember that the Novels aren't "canon" in the sense that "These books tell us what is in the setting". That's basically the Author's campaign. It may present precedent, but just because it's X in the book doesn't make it X in the official Eberron. ;)

I think that intentionally a full list of Daelkyr were left off. Similar to why we don't have a full list of Lords of Dust, despite Keith supplying a few in a Dragon Magazine.

This was done I feel so that DMs can make their own. As the entry for Daelkyr in the ECS suggests, there could be others in there with obsessions (killer plants, psionic insects, etc), all for the DM to use.

But I've only seen official references of the ones you mentioned - Belashyrra and Orlassk.
TiwazTyrsfist
07-28-07, 06:00 PM Wait, the novels, even the ones Hellcow writes, AREN'T CANON?

Hold on, I need to sit down.

Wow.

I'm sorry, as a veteran of the Dragonlance campaign setting/novel interaction, that kind of blows my mind.

It's genius, I admit, but actually very hard to wrap my brain around...

Edit:
"The Gods are Gone!"
"The Gods have Returned!"
"The Gods are Dead!"
"Wait, My Bad! They were having a family outing!"
"The Gods Have Abandoned us AGAIN!"
"Oh, Wait, They were Behind the Sofa!"
I love the dragonlance novels, but they made the setting hard to play...
Rechan
07-28-07, 09:08 PM Edit:
"The Gods are Gone!"
"The Gods have Returned!"
"The Gods are Dead!"
"Wait, My Bad! They were having a family outing!"
"The Gods Have Abandoned us AGAIN!"
"Oh, Wait, They were Behind the Sofa!"
I love the dragonlance novels, but they made the setting hard to play...

Same thing with FR. Basically you had to read the novels to learn how the setting had changed and what was new.

One of the promises that made about Eberron was "It's not going to change. We will flesh it out, but we're not advancing the timeline at all."

If the novels were canon, then we'd all ready know how the Mark of Death works and the story around it, as opposed to letting individual DMs decide what they're doing. :)
Hellcow
07-29-07, 12:03 AM To begin by addressing the OP, the main list of named daelkyr is on page 85 of The Player's Guide to Eberron. Of course, it's noted that a) these are exceptionally powerful daelkyr, and b) that it's not a complete list, since the intention is to leave you room to create your own. The list includes Dyrrn the Corruptor; Belashyrra, the Lord of Eyes; Orlassk, the Master of Stone; and Kyrzin, Prince of Slime. more details about each can be found in PGtE.
Hellcow
07-29-07, 12:15 AM And to address the second topic:

I've seen a number of posts on boards stating that in Eberron, the novels "aren't canon" - as if WotC has made some sort of official statement to this effect.

I don't know if that's actually true.

I know it's true in MY novels, because of the clear example of the docent Shira - a magic item that plays an important role in The Dreaming Dark novels. This item is also presented in the Secrets of Xen'drik sourcebook, but absolutely nothing is said about its fate in TDD or any of the TDD characters.

For me, one of the foundational aspects of Eberron since the very begining is that if the world is a novel or a movie, your PCs are the heroes. I don't want you overshadowed by novel characters. For me, events in a novel should serve as inspiration; this COULD happen in my campaign, but MY players would be the main characters. Thus Shira - I want YOUR players to be able to get ahold of her, and the story that evolves as a result may be entirely different from what happens in The Shattered Land.

But that's MY preference. I've said in a lot of places that it's what I prefer, and that it's how *I* will write things. I'll note that the Sulatar drow first appeared in TDD, and I then included them in SoX, so that's an example of something that appeared in a novel that is now canon. But what I DIDN'T describe is their encounter with the characters from TDD. I don't mind the novels exploring the world - but when you sit down at your gaming table, I want your characters to be the heroes of your novels. So personally, I'm not planning to shoehorn Pierce or Daine into the official landscape of Eberron (despite Lei and Pierce's appearance in the artwork of Dragonmarked); they belong in the novels, and the sourcebooks are the resource for you to create your own story. But again, that's MY preference - I've never seen anything official from WotC saying that they back me up on it. If someone else has, please point me to it - I'd love to know about it.

A related topic I've seen tied to novels is the question of if novels need realm-shattering events - the Gods are gone, the Gods are back, and all that. Some people hate 'em, others love 'em. In my opinion, a story doesn't need to be earth-shattering to be successful. The original one sentence description of Eberron was "Lord of the Rings meets Raiders of the Lost Ark and The Maltese Falcon."

I like all three of those stories, and each one is completely different.

The Maltese Falcon is ENTIRELY self-contained. It affects the lives of a half-dozen fairly amoral people. No one else in the city, let alone the world, is affected by the outcome of the story. But it's a great story. While I certainly wouldn't put my own writing skills on that level, for me City of Towers and "Principles of Fire" all fall into this category - a few days in the lives of people in Sharn. And "Principles of Fire" is my personal favorite of everything I've written to this point.

Raiders of the Lost Ark is the "Toys in the Box" story. It DOES involve a threat to the entire world: what could happen if the Nazis are able to harness the amazing powers of the Ark? But in the end (shocking spoilers ahead!) they fail, and the Ark is taken away by "Top Men". It's dramatic, it's over the top... and ultimately, no one in the world knows about it except for Indy and Marian. That's the remaining two novels of The Dreaming Dark. You COULD decide to make them canon, and it still wouldn't require you to throw out anything in the ECS. It presents an EXPANDED threat... but a threat that the rest of the world knows nothing about.

Finally, we have Lords of the Rings - the true, world-shaking, epic series. I'm not opposed to events of this magnitude happening in Eberron. But when they happen, I want YOU to be driving them. Even if you aren't the prime movers, I at least want you to be at the heart of the action. Eberron is based on that idea that YOU are among the most remarkable people of the age, whether you are heroes our villains.

As a result, *I* prefer to write stories closer to Raiders or The Maltese Falcon. I want novels to INSPIRE your adventures; I don't want them to end up making your characters sit on the sidelines while someone else makes a real difference in the world.
Rechan
07-29-07, 12:36 AM Thanks for posting on here Keith, and also pointing to the list on page 85. :)

And to address the second topic:

I've seen a number of posts on boards addressin stating that in Eberron, the novels "aren't canon" - as if WotC has made some sort of official statement to this effect.

I don't know if that's actually true.

I know it's true in MY novels, because of the clear example of the docent Shira - a magic item that plays an important role in The Dreaming Dark novels. This item is also presented in the Secrets of Xen'drik sourcebook, but absolutely nothing is said about its fate in TDD or any of the TDD characters.

For me, one of the foundational aspects of Eberron since the very begining is that if the world is a novel or a movie, your PCs are the heroes. I don't want you overshadowed by novel characters. For me, events in a novel should serve as inspiration; this COULD happen in my campaign, but MY players would be the main characters. Thus Shira - I want YOUR players to be able to get ahold of her, and the story that evolves as a result may be entirely different from what happens in The Shattered Land.

Honestly, that's not my concern. If Pierce ends up statted somewhere in a sidebar, or Lei is mentioned as an NPC in a tavern, I'm likely not going to notice because I read sourcebooks like a hummingbird.

What bothers me is when an author (and sometimes an author who may not be 100% familiar with the setting) takes a significant character, or a city, or something - and completely tanks it. For example, let's say an author of one of the novels explores the cause of the Mourning, and shows us who did it. Is this going to show up in the next sourcebook? Is my game expected to reflect this truth (or at least Implied to)?

Your ideas are your ideas; the Sulatar are in your novel and in SoX - there's no difference if SoX came first or the Novel came first. I'm sure there are countless stories in your head which have spawned things you have put in Eberron. That, to me, is completely legitimate.

But when you or an author blows up a country in a novel, or exposes Merrix's Creation Forge, or some other thing that alters the existing game rather than adding New elements, then I say that's a problem.

With the example in this thread, I don't think that since The Binding Stone had the ghost of the Daelkyr of Blades, that means that he is now Officially one of the Daelkyr and now he's going to stand by Orlassk.

I would like to believe that the novels are the narrative equivalent of someone's campaign, and they're recounting what happened in their campaign. I can imagine you pull ideas from your campaign and drop them into the world, and that's fine, up until it starts messing with stuff like the BIG MYSTERIES or cities/countries and very macro-type situations that will Alter many a DM's game if they expect to reflect source material.
Rechan
07-29-07, 12:46 AM Doublepost.
Vharuck
07-29-07, 02:19 AM I certainly hope the Marked for Death series did not become canon. That would ruin a lot of campaigns (my DM's in particular).
Candide
07-31-07, 10:41 PM WotC said they weren't going to advance the timeline for Eberron, I thought. A novel(or its series) is basicly "the authors campaign"
The Dreaming Duck
08-01-07, 12:01 AM WotC said they weren't going to advance the timeline for Eberron, I thought.
That's the question. I know Hellcow has said that HE prefers that the novels be inspiration as opposed to canon. But he's not an employee of WotC, and we know that he doesn't agree with everything that's been done.

So I know that we like to THINK novels aren't canon, because that's Hellcow's preference, and he posts on the boards.

But HAS anyone actually employed by WotC said this? James Wyatt? Bill Slaviscek? Keith pointed out that in Secrets of Xen'drik, the description of Shira inherently assumes that the events of The Shattered Land haven't happened. On the other hand, in The Forge of War - which James Wyatt worked on - the description of the Ramethene Sword (page 127) specifically refers to the events of Claws of the Tiger as part of the history of the sword - which essentially establishes the events of that book (and the existence of explorer Janik Martell) as canon.

So Keith may not think of the novels as canon. But has WotC actually ever taken a stand on this, or do we just like to think that they have?
Errant
08-07-07, 01:22 AM If the novels were canon, then we'd all ready know how the Mark of Death works and the story around it, as opposed to letting individual DMs decide what they're doing. :)

Actually I was left with the distinct impression that the "Mark of Death" *may* in fact have been an Aberrant Mark. It could truly have been a MoD, or it may have merely been an AM that everyone incorrectly believed/suspected to be a MoD. Like the Maltese Falcon, the story ended with few but the protagonists effected and the DM had enough wiggle room to adopt the re-appearance of the Mark of Death in Khorvaire, or to write it off as a misperception. Hopefully the novels will keep to that standard.

Thats my perception/opinion anyway.
Errant
08-07-07, 01:29 AM But HAS anyone actually employed by WotC said this? James Wyatt? Bill Slaviscek? Keith pointed out that in Secrets of Xen'drik, the description of Shira inherently assumes that the events of The Shattered Land haven't happened. On the other hand, in The Forge of War - which James Wyatt worked on - the description of the Ramethene Sword (page 127) specifically refers to the events of Claws of the Tiger as part of the history of the sword - which essentially establishes the events of that book (and the existence of explorer Janik Martell) as canon.

Are any of the novels' timelines, or the events the novels describe, explicit/contradictory enough to change anything in the official campaign world except add some extra history?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TiwazTyrsfist 07-27-07, 08:45 PM	So, I was reading through some of the dragonshards, and in the Master of Magic dragonshard, it had a section on Orlassk, the lord of stone. In a couple novels, we've seen the Lord of Silence (or was it master?), and a Lord of Blades (presumably) not related to the warforged of the same moniker. And in the Dragonshard it mentioned another Daelkyr named Belashyrra who is somehow linked to either eyes, beholders, or both. So, here's my question. Is there an official list somewhere of the Daelkyr in Eberron? Even a partial list if it's beyond these four? If so, where? Or is this like a secret list that Hellcow has on his computer, but hasn't shared because he's using them as plot elements? Because I can accept that too, if it's the case. Just curious.
Rechan 07-28-07, 12:58 AM	Remember that the Novels aren't "canon" in the sense that "These books tell us what is in the setting". That's basically the Author's campaign. It may present precedent, but just because it's X in the book doesn't make it X in the official Eberron. ;) I think that intentionally a full list of Daelkyr were left off. Similar to why we don't have a full list of Lords of Dust, despite Keith supplying a few in a Dragon Magazine. This was done I feel so that DMs can make their own. As the entry for Daelkyr in the ECS suggests, there could be others in there with obsessions (killer plants, psionic insects, etc), all for the DM to use. But I've only seen official references of the ones you mentioned - Belashyrra and Orlassk.
TiwazTyrsfist 07-28-07, 06:00 PM	Wait, the novels, even the ones Hellcow writes, AREN'T CANON? Hold on, I need to sit down. Wow. I'm sorry, as a veteran of the Dragonlance campaign setting/novel interaction, that kind of blows my mind. It's genius, I admit, but actually very hard to wrap my brain around... Edit: "The Gods are Gone!" "The Gods have Returned!" "The Gods are Dead!" "Wait, My Bad! They were having a family outing!" "The Gods Have Abandoned us AGAIN!" "Oh, Wait, They were Behind the Sofa!" I love the dragonlance novels, but they made the setting hard to play...
Rechan 07-28-07, 09:08 PM	Edit: "The Gods are Gone!" "The Gods have Returned!" "The Gods are Dead!" "Wait, My Bad! They were having a family outing!" "The Gods Have Abandoned us AGAIN!" "Oh, Wait, They were Behind the Sofa!" I love the dragonlance novels, but they made the setting hard to play... Same thing with FR. Basically you had to read the novels to learn how the setting had changed and what was new. One of the promises that made about Eberron was "It's not going to change. We will flesh it out, but we're not advancing the timeline at all." If the novels were canon, then we'd all ready know how the Mark of Death works and the story around it, as opposed to letting individual DMs decide what they're doing. :)
Hellcow 07-29-07, 12:03 AM	To begin by addressing the OP, the main list of named daelkyr is on page 85 of The Player's Guide to Eberron. Of course, it's noted that a) these are exceptionally powerful daelkyr, and b) that it's not a complete list, since the intention is to leave you room to create your own. The list includes Dyrrn the Corruptor; Belashyrra, the Lord of Eyes; Orlassk, the Master of Stone; and Kyrzin, Prince of Slime. more details about each can be found in PGtE.
Hellcow 07-29-07, 12:15 AM	And to address the second topic: I've seen a number of posts on boards stating that in Eberron, the novels "aren't canon" - as if WotC has made some sort of official statement to this effect. I don't know if that's actually true. I know it's true in MY novels, because of the clear example of the docent Shira - a magic item that plays an important role in The Dreaming Dark novels. This item is also presented in the Secrets of Xen'drik sourcebook, but absolutely nothing is said about its fate in TDD or any of the TDD characters. For me, one of the foundational aspects of Eberron since the very begining is that if the world is a novel or a movie, your PCs are the heroes. I don't want you overshadowed by novel characters. For me, events in a novel should serve as inspiration; this COULD happen in my campaign, but MY players would be the main characters. Thus Shira - I want YOUR players to be able to get ahold of her, and the story that evolves as a result may be entirely different from what happens in The Shattered Land. But that's MY preference. I've said in a lot of places that it's what I prefer, and that it's how I will write things. I'll note that the Sulatar drow first appeared in TDD, and I then included them in SoX, so that's an example of something that appeared in a novel that is now canon. But what I DIDN'T describe is their encounter with the characters from TDD. I don't mind the novels exploring the world - but when you sit down at your gaming table, I want your characters to be the heroes of your novels. So personally, I'm not planning to shoehorn Pierce or Daine into the official landscape of Eberron (despite Lei and Pierce's appearance in the artwork of Dragonmarked); they belong in the novels, and the sourcebooks are the resource for you to create your own story. But again, that's MY preference - I've never seen anything official from WotC saying that they back me up on it. If someone else has, please point me to it - I'd love to know about it. A related topic I've seen tied to novels is the question of if novels need realm-shattering events - the Gods are gone, the Gods are back, and all that. Some people hate 'em, others love 'em. In my opinion, a story doesn't need to be earth-shattering to be successful. The original one sentence description of Eberron was "Lord of the Rings meets Raiders of the Lost Ark and The Maltese Falcon." I like all three of those stories, and each one is completely different. The Maltese Falcon is ENTIRELY self-contained. It affects the lives of a half-dozen fairly amoral people. No one else in the city, let alone the world, is affected by the outcome of the story. But it's a great story. While I certainly wouldn't put my own writing skills on that level, for me City of Towers and "Principles of Fire" all fall into this category - a few days in the lives of people in Sharn. And "Principles of Fire" is my personal favorite of everything I've written to this point. Raiders of the Lost Ark is the "Toys in the Box" story. It DOES involve a threat to the entire world: what could happen if the Nazis are able to harness the amazing powers of the Ark? But in the end (shocking spoilers ahead!) they fail, and the Ark is taken away by "Top Men". It's dramatic, it's over the top... and ultimately, no one in the world knows about it except for Indy and Marian. That's the remaining two novels of The Dreaming Dark. You COULD decide to make them canon, and it still wouldn't require you to throw out anything in the ECS. It presents an EXPANDED threat... but a threat that the rest of the world knows nothing about. Finally, we have Lords of the Rings - the true, world-shaking, epic series. I'm not opposed to events of this magnitude happening in Eberron. But when they happen, I want YOU to be driving them. Even if you aren't the prime movers, I at least want you to be at the heart of the action. Eberron is based on that idea that YOU are among the most remarkable people of the age, whether you are heroes our villains. As a result, I prefer to write stories closer to Raiders or The Maltese Falcon. I want novels to INSPIRE your adventures; I don't want them to end up making your characters sit on the sidelines while someone else makes a real difference in the world.
Rechan 07-29-07, 12:36 AM	Thanks for posting on here Keith, and also pointing to the list on page 85. :) And to address the second topic: I've seen a number of posts on boards addressin stating that in Eberron, the novels "aren't canon" - as if WotC has made some sort of official statement to this effect. I don't know if that's actually true. I know it's true in MY novels, because of the clear example of the docent Shira - a magic item that plays an important role in The Dreaming Dark novels. This item is also presented in the Secrets of Xen'drik sourcebook, but absolutely nothing is said about its fate in TDD or any of the TDD characters. For me, one of the foundational aspects of Eberron since the very begining is that if the world is a novel or a movie, your PCs are the heroes. I don't want you overshadowed by novel characters. For me, events in a novel should serve as inspiration; this COULD happen in my campaign, but MY players would be the main characters. Thus Shira - I want YOUR players to be able to get ahold of her, and the story that evolves as a result may be entirely different from what happens in The Shattered Land. Honestly, that's not my concern. If Pierce ends up statted somewhere in a sidebar, or Lei is mentioned as an NPC in a tavern, I'm likely not going to notice because I read sourcebooks like a hummingbird. What bothers me is when an author (and sometimes an author who may not be 100% familiar with the setting) takes a significant character, or a city, or something - and completely tanks it. For example, let's say an author of one of the novels explores the cause of the Mourning, and shows us who did it. Is this going to show up in the next sourcebook? Is my game expected to reflect this truth (or at least Implied to)? Your ideas are your ideas; the Sulatar are in your novel and in SoX - there's no difference if SoX came first or the Novel came first. I'm sure there are countless stories in your head which have spawned things you have put in Eberron. That, to me, is completely legitimate. But when you or an author blows up a country in a novel, or exposes Merrix's Creation Forge, or some other thing that alters the existing game rather than adding New elements, then I say that's a problem. With the example in this thread, I don't think that since The Binding Stone had the ghost of the Daelkyr of Blades, that means that he is now Officially one of the Daelkyr and now he's going to stand by Orlassk. I would like to believe that the novels are the narrative equivalent of someone's campaign, and they're recounting what happened in their campaign. I can imagine you pull ideas from your campaign and drop them into the world, and that's fine, up until it starts messing with stuff like the BIG MYSTERIES or cities/countries and very macro-type situations that will Alter many a DM's game if they expect to reflect source material.
Rechan 07-29-07, 12:46 AM	Doublepost.
Vharuck 07-29-07, 02:19 AM	I certainly hope the Marked for Death series did not become canon. That would ruin a lot of campaigns (my DM's in particular).
Candide 07-31-07, 10:41 PM	WotC said they weren't going to advance the timeline for Eberron, I thought. A novel(or its series) is basicly "the authors campaign"
The Dreaming Duck 08-01-07, 12:01 AM	WotC said they weren't going to advance the timeline for Eberron, I thought. That's the question. I know Hellcow has said that HE prefers that the novels be inspiration as opposed to canon. But he's not an employee of WotC, and we know that he doesn't agree with everything that's been done. So I know that we like to THINK novels aren't canon, because that's Hellcow's preference, and he posts on the boards. But HAS anyone actually employed by WotC said this? James Wyatt? Bill Slaviscek? Keith pointed out that in Secrets of Xen'drik, the description of Shira inherently assumes that the events of The Shattered Land haven't happened. On the other hand, in The Forge of War - which James Wyatt worked on - the description of the Ramethene Sword (page 127) specifically refers to the events of Claws of the Tiger as part of the history of the sword - which essentially establishes the events of that book (and the existence of explorer Janik Martell) as canon. So Keith may not think of the novels as canon. But has WotC actually ever taken a stand on this, or do we just like to think that they have?
Errant 08-07-07, 01:22 AM	If the novels were canon, then we'd all ready know how the Mark of Death works and the story around it, as opposed to letting individual DMs decide what they're doing. :) Actually I was left with the distinct impression that the "Mark of Death" may in fact have been an Aberrant Mark. It could truly have been a MoD, or it may have merely been an AM that everyone incorrectly believed/suspected to be a MoD. Like the Maltese Falcon, the story ended with few but the protagonists effected and the DM had enough wiggle room to adopt the re-appearance of the Mark of Death in Khorvaire, or to write it off as a misperception. Hopefully the novels will keep to that standard. Thats my perception/opinion anyway.
Errant 08-07-07, 01:29 AM	But HAS anyone actually employed by WotC said this? James Wyatt? Bill Slaviscek? Keith pointed out that in Secrets of Xen'drik, the description of Shira inherently assumes that the events of The Shattered Land haven't happened. On the other hand, in The Forge of War - which James Wyatt worked on - the description of the Ramethene Sword (page 127) specifically refers to the events of Claws of the Tiger as part of the history of the sword - which essentially establishes the events of that book (and the existence of explorer Janik Martell) as canon. Are any of the novels' timelines, or the events the novels describe, explicit/contradictory enough to change anything in the official campaign world except add some extra history?