Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Darth Syntax 03-14-07, 11:00 PM	The power of the Dragonmarked Houses, in matters economic, social, and political, is considerable. I think we can probably all agree on this. What then does this sort of power mean in the world? It seems to me that the Houses function as a species of landless nations. They have their own legal traditions, their own rights, they exert considerable control over their people, and they have the economic clout to back up their actions. This sort of power would seem to rub up against the sovereign power of the various nations of Khorvaire. So I began to muse. And then it hit me, like a surly rhinoceros wearing an evening gown: The Houses are a species of nation, and the people of the Houses are not citizens of say Breland, Karrnath, or Zilargo, but citizens of their House. The Housed are resident aliens in the regular nations of Khorvaire; foreign business people and diplomats. They are not bound by the laws of any particular nation, only those laws that apply to their House. The reverse is true of your non-Housed folk. When they step into a Dragonmarked enclave, they are effectively on foreign soil. The sovereignty of the Houses would allow them to engage in lines of business that might be illegal in, say, Aundair, but so long as the actual transactions occur in House enclaves, no wrong-doing has technically occured. This gives both the people of regular nations and the Houses a kind of safety net when it comes to the murkier aspects of the business. Granted, this sort of arrangement is likely to case all sorts of political and jurisdictional conflicts. Can the Brels arrest a member of House Sivis for the murder of a Brelish citizen outright? Or do they have to apply for something like a warrant of extradition from the house? Similarly, can a House sit in judgment of a Karrnathi theif who stole from them, or must they go through Karrnathi authorities? But isn't that what make the world fun? -- Anyway, just some musings of mine. I would love to hear your ideas on issues involving the Houses and the Nations.
Splendide 03-14-07, 11:38 PM	The houses are incorporated under the auspices of Galifar, so they would at least be subject to Galifar legal procedure.
Darth Syntax 03-14-07, 11:47 PM	The trouble is, Galifaran law no longer exists, and it isn't binding unless its tenants are adopted by the daughter nations. Moreover, the notion that the Houses are non-citizens allows them to maintain the necessary degree of neutrality. It also explains why the Houses cannot hold political power in the Five Nations, they are inherently foreigners. The Edicts of Korth seem to have greatly limited the potential power of the Houses, giving them sovereign power over their people might help to explain why the Edicts were signed.
Splendide 03-14-07, 11:50 PM	#1. Just because you are not a citizen, it doesn't mean that you're not bound to local laws. #2. Just because youor organization is multinational, it doesn't mean land that you own is granted extraterritoriality.
Cifer 03-15-07, 12:12 AM	#2. Just because youor organization is multinational, it doesn't mean land that you own is granted extraterritoriality. IIRC, the enclaves are indeed extraterritorial. I'd say the houses have more or less the status of the Shadowrun megacorporations - extraterritorial enclaves, quite probably small private armies of loyal house troops and a rather special status with regards to the law. The latter would be such that house enclaves are indeed foreign soil so an extradition would need to take place. Depending on who is accused of which crime, the house may or may not comply with the country surrounding its enclave - their newest prodigy would be protected in all the modern ways (make sure you've bought everyone important before you turn him in to the authorities to be found innocent) while that lazy good-fer-nuffin would be extradited rather quickly to show one's devotion to justice. Privileges (meaning "private law") are nothing really special in Eberron - noone would expect a noble to face penalities as harsh as those a commoner would get.
goblin_pride 03-15-07, 12:45 AM	Did you forget that the Edicts of Korth prevent the houses from actually owning the land their enclaves are built on? Yes, that means the D'marked houses are at the pleasure of their landlords, the kings of the various states in which they operate. If they flaunt the laws of a given kingdom to flagrantly, they can be expelled from that kingdom. By force, if they torque off the rulers badly enough.
Splendide 03-15-07, 01:00 AM	I feel that in designing Eberron, they went to particular effort to not make the houses into megacorporations like in Shadowrun. Megacorps would completely destroy the relevance of individual nations, and a world like that would've been a hard sell to the average D&Der. Not to mention that every old gamer in the world would be screaming "OMG SHADOWRUN! FASA 4 EVA WIZARDS RIP THEM OFF BOOO!"
Rekko 03-15-07, 01:30 AM	Did you forget that the Edicts of Korth prevent the houses from actually owning the land their enclaves are built on? Yes, that means the D'marked houses are at the pleasure of their landlords, the kings of the various states in which they operate. If they flaunt the laws of a given kingdom to flagrantly, they can be expelled from that kingdom. By force, if they torque off the rulers badly enough. On another note, the D'marked houses are doing a lot for local economy and I don't think that Kings would really want to expell a House from their land. The people of Khorvaire are now depending on these makers of economic life. I'd say members of the Houses can be expelled, but never would the Houses suffer such affliction. Darth Syntax, I thank you for bringing this topic up. It also caught my eye. Rekko
Darth Syntax 03-15-07, 02:19 AM	I'm looking at the sovereignty of the Houses as vaguely analogous to the power of the church in the middle ages (only without the whole clerical nobles and the religiousness). The vast majority of legal proceedings against members of the house are technically under the jurisdiction of the House, although by custom the Houses allow for the local governments to deal with crimes committed by Housed when they do not concern House business. It is also custom for local governments to differ to the Houses when citizens commit crimes which largely concern the House. While it may be that the Houses do not technically own their enclaves (although Lyrandar owns Stromhome in everything but name in my world, to the point that Aundair has no legal authority there), they do have absolute rights of usage in their enclaves. Moreover, I doubt that the nations are going to want to **** off a House by denying them use of an enclave. It's not wise to anger the people who pull the purse strings.
Nived 03-15-07, 02:22 AM	There is a question whether the Edicts of Korth still matter. That agreement was with Galifar, which no longer technically exists. In Dragonmarked there are several referances to various houses breaking the Edicts, they are not breaking the Edicts, just buying land here, dipping into politics there.... almost like they're testing to see how much they can get away wth before the local new government gets annoyed.
Cifer 03-15-07, 10:05 AM	Did you forget that the Edicts of Korth prevent the houses from actually owning the land their enclaves are built on? You might want to re-read that - The Houses are forbidden to own land except for their enclaves (and I wonder how the term enclave is defined and how many houses acquired new ones during the Last War in exchange for their services to nations that were unable to pay them in coin). Megacorps would completely destroy the relevance of individual nations, Would they? Shadowrun still has non-corporate nations. Think about the similarities, however: A good deal of the police is outsourced to Deneith Sentinel Marshals. Most major industries are under the control of the houses. Cannith supplied weapons to all sides of the Last War, just as Deneith supplied mercenaries. I don't know any word that describes this state better than megacorporation.
Yakman 03-15-07, 10:34 AM	On another note, the D'marked houses are doing a lot for local economy and I don't think that Kings would really want to expell a House from their land. The people of Khorvaire are now depending on these makers of economic life. I'd say members of the Houses can be expelled, but never would the Houses suffer such affliction. They would if the House was doing nasty things or stealing from their coffers. Remember, the House itself only does a fraction of the work of the larger Guild.
Nived 03-15-07, 12:10 PM	Excellent point Yak. We must make it a point to distinguish between "Members of the House" and "Guild Members" Cannith Blacksmiths that are just guild members, are NOT members of the house by blood or marriage and thus can own as much land as they want, and they are, without any doubt, citizins of the countries where they live and work. They do not hold any special place in regaurd to the laws, nor are these guild members bound by the neutrality of the houses. You can bet your rear that an Aundair Blacksmith Cannith trained and bonded only made weapons for Aundair durring the war. When we talk about sovereignty and the Edicts of Korth (such as they are) we must consider that we are speaking about the Members of the House, the extended Dragonmarked Family itself, by Blood or Marriage.
Shady314 03-15-07, 10:15 PM	A good deal of the police is outsourced to Deneith Sentinel Marshals. A GOOD deal? Guess it depends how you define good. The Sentinel Marshals appear to be like the US Marshals with the authority to operate in any of the 5 (now 4 nations). I don't know if that's a good deal of the police work.
Darth Syntax 03-16-07, 12:18 AM	Yak is right, as others have said. When I was referring to the Houses having soverignty over their people, I meant only the actual "blood and marriage" folks, not the employees. As to Denieth, I would imagine that they are usually used more as either private security or as a means of hunting down criminals who tend to work internationally. The local and internal policing would be lefts to more, well, local authorities.
Sondus 03-16-07, 12:53 AM	To me the Korth edicts seem to be completely ignored in some parts of Khorvaire (not just informally but formally). Take for example Kundarakhold and House Kundarak, in the Mror holds (according to the ECS) each clan governs their hold and only national concerns are brought up the the Iron council. Dragonmarked states that in Korunda Gate: "All political, legal, and executive decisions still rest with Lord Kundarak and his family" and it would seem plausible that this also holds true for the rest of the Kundarakhold. Clan/House Kundarak seems to hold the same power as a full member-clan within Kundarakhold and all the powers of a Dragonmarked house in the rest of Khorvaire. This would be a very formalized power that seems to be contradictory to the Korth edicts (because the patriarch of the House of Kundarak is formaly also the ruler of Kundarakhold in all things local). Moreover I really can't see how much different this structure could be under Galifar when the Mror clan leaders would have been at least the nobles of their holds in terms of power, making clan/house Kundarak contradict at the very least the spirit of the Korth Edicts.
DyloniusFunk 03-16-07, 01:52 AM	To me the Korth edicts seem to be completely ignored in some parts of Khorvaire (not just informally but formally). Take for example Kundarakhold and House Kundarak, in the Mror holds (according to the ECS) each clan governs their hold and only national concerns are brought up the the Iron council. Dragonmarked states that in Korunda Gate: "All political, legal, and executive decisions still rest with Lord Kundarak and his family" and it would seem plausible that this also holds true for the rest of the Kundarakhold. Clan/House Kundarak seems to hold the same power as a full member-clan within Kundarakhold and all the powers of a Dragonmarked house in the rest of Khorvaire. This would be a very formalized power that seems to be contradictory to the Korth edicts (because the patriarch of the House of Kundarak is formaly also the ruler of Kundarakhold in all things local). Moreover I really can't see how much different this structure could be under Galifar when the Mror clan leaders would have been at least the nobles of their holds in terms of power, making clan/house Kundarak contradict at the very least the spirit of the Korth Edicts. I don't have D-Marked but if i understand you correctly, it stats that Kundrak holds final decision on affairs for thier own holdings only. However every other source even RoE states that they have no official seat on The Iron Council. So i see it has being two different divisions, the Dwarves of the Clan who deal with issues on the home front and the House, who handle the affairs of House and Guild in other lands. And of course exerting their unofficial influence on the Council and thwarting the schemes of the Aurum.
Nived 03-16-07, 03:46 AM	My view on house K is thus. They are not held by the Korth Edicts in the Mror Holds. The Mror Holds broke off from Karrnath because their agreement was with the Kingdom of Galifar, when it was clear the Kingdom of Galifar was no more the Iron Council felt no loyalty with Karrnath because they were not bound by the word of their fathers anymore. Why therefore would they bind House K to the Edicts when those were similarly made to a power that no longer exists anymore. Simple answer is they wouldn't. So why doesn't House K have a seat on the Iron Council? That has more to do with dwarven politics and history. The 12 clans expelled from the Stone Kingdom sit on the Iron Council, (11 because one clan is lost), Kundarak wasn't banished it was sent to gaurd the gates. Kundarak has always culturally been apart from the other dwarves of the Mror Holds. They weren't suposed to open the gates till the 12 set apart their differences... even after they did, and it became clear the Stone Kingdom had been destroyed Kundarak has made no effort to intigrate into the rest of the clan structure. Even if the Mark of Warding had never manifested Kundarak would probably sill hold itself apart. Side tangent I know sorry.
Yakman 03-19-07, 11:27 AM	I don't agree with that assessment. Kundarakhold existed during the reign of Galifar, and thus needed to be in agreement with the Edict of Korth. I believe that Kundarak was granted something of an exemption--the clan morphed into the House, and the clan holdings were maintained by the House--but they are governed as clan holdings, subject to the laws of Galifar (and now the Mror Holds). the "enclave" exemption would apply only to the stronghold of House Kundarak.
Melvin the Mediocre 03-20-07, 09:37 AM	You might want to re-read that - The Houses are forbidden to own land except for their enclaves What book was that in? I remember it the way Goblin did, so I guess I do need to reread it! I'm also curious about the nationality issue. I know that The Twelve is currently weakened because its most powerful members abandoned the house during the Last War as the loyalties they felt to their homelands were stronger than their loyalties to their Houses. What I don't remember is if it ever said they were citizens of the nations they fought for, or if they were just loyal because it is where they called home. If the later, I would have expected them to all fight for Karrnath, the seat of The Twelve.
Nived 03-20-07, 03:08 PM	Enclaves aren't owned by the Houses, they are 'rented' from the host country according to the Edicts of Korth. Also the Twelve is not an exclusively Dragonmarked organization. It is run and funded by the Dragonmarked houses but a large portion of the student body, faculty and staff are not house members. The houses certainly hope they can get these students to work for the guilds after they graduate, and they recruit from the student body, however, when the Last War came along a lot of the students, faculty, and what not left to go back home to fight. The Houses are not their families, they are their employers. Thus a lot of guild members, including many of the staff of the Twelve, decided to quit.
goblin_pride 03-20-07, 04:55 PM	Enclaves aren't owned by the Houses, they are 'rented' from the host country according to the Edicts of Korth. But what constitutes "rent" isn't laid out in the Edicts. If anyone thinks that Cannith was paying in coin for all those facilities in Cyre they're delusional. The "rent" the Houses pay may be paid in the form of exclusive trade agreements, preferred status and political clout. The D'marked houses aren't just economic powers, they're influence. The influence of the houses isn't just coin, it's prosperity, it's the appearance that the house "would rather be in our nation than any other". A D'marked house chooses the place for it's headquarters that gives it the best advantage because that nation is going to make the absolute most use of the House calling that city or nation home.
Roxlimn 03-21-07, 07:20 AM	I'd say that the current level of influence and power the Dragonmarked Families have increased since the start of the Last War. With the Korth Edicts all but formally broken, much of what happens at the current time is very much a gray area. Stormhome, for instance, is a very notable case. While Aundair can be said to hold sway in that part of the world, I find it very difficult to believe that this is anything other than a formality. Lyrandar is a powerful house, and practically every physical aspect of the island is governed by them - down to the weather. While the Houses do not hold any sovereign powers over their Guild Members, formal members of Houses are explicitly outside the jurisdiction of the Five Nations, being citizens of no nation other than their House. In addition to that, even though the Houses hold no legal power over their Guild Members, they hold almost absolute power over them economically. Guilds dominate Khorvairian economics, and being expelled from the Guilds would be a very dire situation for anyone indeed.
Melvin the Mediocre 03-21-07, 09:05 AM	Also the Twelve is not an exclusively Dragonmarked organization. It is run and funded by the Dragonmarked houses but a large portion of the student body, faculty and staff are not house members. But is was the highest ranking dragonmarked members who abandoned The Twelve to fight for their nations, and it was those people whose loyalty to the nations was stronger than the loyalty to at least The Twelve, if not their house. I'll have to get a better quote when I get home. If I remember. Which is doubtful.
Yakman 03-21-07, 12:04 PM	I'd say that the current level of influence and power the Dragonmarked Families have increased since the start of the Last War. With the Korth Edicts all but formally broken, much of what happens at the current time is very much a gray area. Indeed. But some Dragonmarked Houses were big losers in the War. Sivis, Cannith, Ghallanda, Phiarlan and perhaps Kundarak were shafted by the war, while Deneith is certainly not benefitting from the Peace. Stormhome, for instance, is a very notable case. While Aundair can be said to hold sway in that part of the world, I find it very difficult to believe that this is anything other than a formality. Lyrandar is a powerful house, and practically every physical aspect of the island is governed by them - down to the weather. Stormhome is a notable case--and it probably comes with a significant pricetag for Lyrandar. Aundair (and previously Galifar) almost certainly receive a lot of free work from the House in exchange for their island home. While the Houses do not hold any sovereign powers over their Guild Members, formal members of Houses are explicitly outside the jurisdiction of the Five Nations, being citizens of no nation other than their House. This is untrue. Members of Houses are still under the jurisdiction of nations where they reside/work. They steal, they can be prosecuted. The lack of citizenship is not a benefit for them--it is meant to prevent House members from having the legal rights of a citizen (like land ownership). In addition to that, even though the Houses hold no legal power over their Guild Members, they hold almost absolute power over them economically. Guilds dominate Khorvairian economics, and being expelled from the Guilds would be a very dire situation for anyone indeed. But they don't. Theoretical Example: A particular inn has been long known as the best place to stay in Port Verge. Everyone goes there. It's been accredited by Ghallanda for a long time. Say they have a falling out with the local Ghallanda rep and their little accreditation plaque is removed. Does the inn go bankrupt? Of course not. it might lose a few new customers, but people accustomed to staying there will continue to stay there. the same could be said for any business in Khorvaire. Guild membership is a plus, not a must.
Roxlimn 03-21-07, 03:57 PM	Yakman: Indeed. But some Dragonmarked Houses were big losers in the War. Sivis, Cannith, Ghallanda, Phiarlan and perhaps Kundarak were shafted by the war, while Deneith is certainly not benefitting from the Peace. That's really not up for debate. Dragonmarked quite plainly states that the Dragonmarked Houses have had it better than they ever had before, relative to the Monarchs. Stormhome is a notable case--and it probably comes with a significant pricetag for Lyrandar. Aundair (and previously Galifar) almost certainly receive a lot of free work from the House in exchange for their island home. That's purely speculative. Stormhome could just as easily have been granted from favors done by Lyrandar in the past, or out of a cladestine friendship between the House and the Aundairian Kings. This is untrue. Members of Houses are still under the jurisdiction of nations where they reside/work. They steal, they can be prosecuted. The lack of citizenship is not a benefit for them--it is meant to prevent House members from having the legal rights of a citizen (like land ownership). You're mistaken here. Money brings privilege and citizenship brings both privilege and responsibility. If a Cannith House Member steals something, his high rank in the social and economic ladder brings him as much protection as a noble (that is - a very considerable amount). There is a very explicitly laid out arrangement that Dragonmarked members have to abide by the laws of the country they reside and work in, but this is as much House law as it is Galifaran law. It's quite explicitly stated that House members respect the by-laws and traditions of their Houses more than that of the Five Nations. Undoubtedly this is because their status provides them significant protection from things like prosecution - and they are thus functionally not much under the jurisdiction of say, a Brelish sheriff. Even if they do something colossally stupid, like murder a commoner in plain sight, it's a House problem more than it is their problem, and if their House values them enough, it'll probably arrange something expedient to manage the situation. Theoretical Example: A particular inn has been long known as the best place to stay in Port Verge. Everyone goes there. It's been accredited by Ghallanda for a long time. Say they have a falling out with the local Ghallanda rep and their little accreditation plaque is removed. Does the inn go bankrupt? Of course not. it might lose a few new customers, but people accustomed to staying there will continue to stay there. the same could be said for any business in Khorvaire. Guild membership is a plus, not a must. It's explored more in Dragonmarked, but Guilds aren't plusses. For most trades, it's practically a requirement. Guilds establish standards and promote quality control. If an inn manages to get itself booted out of the Hostelers Guild, the typical Khorvairian will be concerned about how and why this has happened. It's like the FDA in a way. You don't NEED FDA approval to market your drug, you just need it to say certain things about your drug. However, FDA approval carries big weight, and not just in the US. If the FDA so much as glances at a pharmaceutical the wrong way, the companies are usually quick to act about it. It's not that there aren't independent entities outside of the Guilds. There are, but they're few and they usually don't enjoy the kind of popular confidence they'd otherwise have if they were Guild members. Moreover, the Houses also do a lot of activity to ensure that their dominance is unchallenged. Ghallanda being the House that it is, I don't believe that it'll indulge in strongarm tactics to pressure a wayward inn to join the ranks, but it's not all that farfetched.
Yakman 03-21-07, 05:58 PM	That's really not up for debate. Dragonmarked quite plainly states that the Dragonmarked Houses have had it better than they ever had before, relative to the Monarchs. Certainly the Houses benefit fromt the weakening of the government of khorvaire--they now have more leverage and more freedom than before. BUT the war was not a benefit to the Houses that i mentioned--it ruined one, split another, and basically shut down one (maybe two) for a century. That's purely speculative. Stormhome could just as easily have been granted from favors done by Lyrandar in the past, or out of a cladestine friendship between the House and the Aundairian Kings. No. It could not have. The Edicts of Korth have not been rescinded in Aundair, and as such, the Monarchy in Aundair (which is the most conservative in Galifar) would not have given them Stormhome. You're mistaken here. Money brings privilege and citizenship brings both privilege and responsibility. If a Cannith House Member steals something, his high rank in the social and economic ladder brings him as much protection as a noble (that is - a very considerable amount). There is a very explicitly laid out arrangement that Dragonmarked members have to abide by the laws of the country they reside and work in, but this is as much House law as it is Galifaran law. True enough. But that has nothing to do with his rights--it has everything to do with wealth and power. he is no different from a 'common' noble. It's quite explicitly stated that House members respect the by-laws and traditions of their Houses more than that of the Five Nations. Undoubtedly this is because their status provides them significant protection from things like prosecution - and they are thus functionally not much under the jurisdiction of say, a Brelish sheriff. Not true. They abide by the rules of the nations that they operate in. This is plainly stated. That they are not citizens gives them fewer rights--not more. House members may not give great credence to the laws of the local nations, but they don't violate them with impunity... at least not for long. Even if they do something colossally stupid, like murder a commoner in plain sight, it's a House problem more than it is their problem, and if their House values them enough, it'll probably arrange something expedient to manage the situation. Houses are not going to want to deal with inquisitive governments that start snooping around for housemembers who are suspected of committing crimes. housemember killing a commoner in plain site = housemember going to the gallows or going renegade. The D'marked Houses are not stupid enough to believe that the nations of Khorvaire are going to let them get away with murder with impunity. It's explored more in Dragonmarked, but Guilds aren't plusses. For most trades, it's practically a requirement. Guilds establish standards and promote quality control. If an inn manages to get itself booted out of the Hostelers Guild, the typical Khorvairian will be concerned about how and why this has happened. Perhaps. But locals will certainly know the real story. Moreover, Ghallanda is bound by its obligations to its guild members to be fair and impartial--the inn in my example did nothing to deserve the retraction of its guild status. Other guilds will protest, and Ghallanda will have to deal with the situation. The same goes for any business. It's like the FDA in a way. You don't NEED FDA approval to market your drug, you just need it to say certain things about your drug. However, FDA approval carries big weight, and not just in the US. wtf? You cannot sell pharmaceuticals in the US without FDA approval. If the FDA so much as glances at a pharmaceutical the wrong way, the companies are usually quick to act about it. because they cannot sell it in the US, their most profitable market. completely different ballgame here, and a bad comparison. It's not that there aren't independent entities outside of the Guilds. There are, but they're few and they usually don't enjoy the kind of popular confidence they'd otherwise have if they were Guild members. True. But that's only because the Houses make great effort to appear as high-quality purveyors of merchandise and services, as well as impartial "regulators" Moreover, the Houses also do a lot of activity to ensure that their dominance is unchallenged. Ghallanda being the House that it is, I don't believe that it'll indulge in strongarm tactics to pressure a wayward inn to join the ranks, but it's not all that farfetched. Like I said, they do it too many times and they are going to get in trouble. Just like the d'marked houses needing to obey local laws.
goblin_pride 03-21-07, 06:31 PM	Stormhome, for instance, is a very notable case. While Aundair can be said to hold sway in that part of the world, I find it very difficult to believe that this is anything other than a formality. Lyrandar is a powerful house, and practically every physical aspect of the island is governed by them - down to the weather. And Stormhome is an island that was thought uninhabitable prior to Lyrander's arrival there. Aundair may have simply relinquished it's claim to the island or even rented it to Lyrander in exchange for the House's softening the impact of the weather along that coast. The price a House pays to use the lands of a monarch are negotiable, Stormhome is no exception to that.
Melvin the Mediocre 03-21-07, 06:48 PM	...highest ranking dragonmarked members who abandoned The Twelve to fight for their nations, ... loyalty to the nations was stronger than the loyalty to at least The Twelve, if not their house. I'll have to get a better quote when I get home. If I remember. Which is doubtful. It's from ECS p 180, and fairly vague. It says senior wizards left to help "their homelands" and now any Tom, Dick, and Harry can sit on the Committee of Twelve as the college is having trouble keeping the seats occupied. The question that I still wonder is what exactly is meant by their homelands. I'd always thought that members of the DM Houses were still citizens of the various nations, but that does not seem to be the popular opinion. I've never read anything that made me think otherwise though.
Zombomaniac 03-21-07, 07:28 PM	...The question that I still wonder is what exactly is meant by their homelands. I'd always thought that members of the DM Houses were still citizens of the various nations, but that does not seem to be the popular opinion. I've never read anything that made me think otherwise though. Just because you aren't a citizen of a nation doesn't mean you didn't grow up there and don't have friends and loved ones there.
Adhevan 03-22-07, 02:38 AM	Indeed. But some Dragonmarked Houses were big losers in the War. Sivis, Cannith, Ghallanda, Phiarlan and perhaps Kundarak were shafted by the war, while Deneith is certainly not benefitting from the Peace. I"m not sure how the war, as a whole, affected them, but the Mourning put a big hurt on House Orien by cutting off rails and caravan paths. Many goods that before would have been transported by caravan or lightning rail are being shipped by sea or air.
loseth 03-22-07, 07:49 AM	Just because you aren't a citizen of a nation doesn't mean you didn't grow up there and don't have friends and loved ones there. I agree. You can be a citizen of an ancestral homeland (or an ancestral House in this case), but a resident of a homeland into which you were born and have lived all your life, but of which you are not a citizen. As an IRL example, when I lived in Saudi Arabia, I met many people who were citizens of Palestine, rather than Saudi Arabia, but who had never been outside Saudi Arabia and whose families had lived in Saudi Arabia for two or more generations. I imagine that being a DM family member would be somewhat similar.
Yakman 03-22-07, 12:54 PM	I"m not sure how the war, as a whole, affected them, but the Mourning put a big hurt on House Orien by cutting off rails and caravan paths. Many goods that before would have been transported by caravan or lightning rail are being shipped by sea or air. Good catch. Orien probably made a pretty penny moving soldiers and supplies around the Five Nations during the war, but at the same time, would have lost a lot of lucrative commercial contracts. Moreover, Cyre most likely had not only the east-west connecting Lightning Rail, but also a North-South one--which is a lot of time and money gone in a flash. While the Air trade is still relatively new and minor, and the distances extreme in the sea trade (it's a long ass trip from Sharn to Korth for instance), the competition isn't what kills Orien so much as the general collapse in trade. Orien is a loser in the War, and they are still years, if not decades, away from recovering.
Nived 03-22-07, 03:21 PM	The Last War certainly hurt Orien bad, but I don't think they were hurt the worst. Cannith is on the verge of an internal civil war that'll break the house in three, Phiarlan already broke, Orien on the other hand, dispite being fractured in the physical sense seems to be as united as ever. From the information in the ECS and DMarked it seems to me that most of Orien is working to overcome this adversity rather than letting it beat them down. The House, the Guilds, and your person, in that order, that's how Orien teaches its kids to prioritize. The House is hurting, so everyone is coming together to fix it. Unlike other houses Orien seems pretty stable.
Yakman 03-22-07, 04:03 PM	The Last War certainly hurt Orien bad, but I don't think they were hurt the worst. Cannith is on the verge of an internal civil war that'll break the house in three, Phiarlan already broke, Orien on the other hand, dispite being fractured in the physical sense seems to be as united as ever. From the information in the ECS and DMarked it seems to me that most of Orien is working to overcome this adversity rather than letting it beat them down. The House, the Guilds, and your person, in that order, that's how Orien teaches its kids to prioritize. The House is hurting, so everyone is coming together to fix it. Unlike other houses Orien seems pretty stable. indeed. never suggested otherwise. Orien is in the same boat with Ghallanda--the war was disastrous, and the peace is uncertain. They can either pull together or they are done for, with the risk of trade and economies localizing as they did in RL when the Roman Empire collapsed.
Darth Syntax 03-22-07, 09:21 PM	All this talk of the impact of the War on the houses has got me thinking about their supposed neutrality and their position in the conflict. It is known that House Cannith was based in Cyre, but it is also known that Cannith's Warforged were used by many sides in the conflict. If House Cannith was considered to be a Cyran organization then it follows that selling Breland Warforged would be tantamount to treason. The fact that this was not the case seems to be to be a good bit of evidence in favor of the Houses having some kind of inherent sovereignty. As to the nature of House citizenship, I am in general agreement with loseth (good example by the way). -- On the effects of the War Orien is indeed in a bad way what with the severing of the east-west rail lines and I can immagine that Orien would be quite keen on getting that bridge between Thaliost and Rekkanmark rebuilt. Who knows, they might even be willing to secretly back the Thaliost separatist movement in exchange for the opportunity to reconnect the north east to the rest of the system.
Roxlimn 03-23-07, 08:29 AM	Yakman: Certainly the Houses benefit fromt the weakening of the government of khorvaire--they now have more leverage and more freedom than before. BUT the war was not a benefit to the Houses that i mentioned--it ruined one, split another, and basically shut down one (maybe two) for a century. And the war was an absolute disaster for Cyre. That doesn't mean that on the whole, the Dragonmarked Houses aren't stronger now relative to the Five Nations than they were before the Last War. They are. No. It could not have. The Edicts of Korth have not been rescinded in Aundair, and as such, the Monarchy in Aundair (which is the most conservative in Galifar) would not have given them Stormhome. Hard to say. The Edicts of Korth were made in agreement to Galifar, not to any of the Five Nations, and it's debatable whether Aundair (or any of the Five Nations) has the political might to enforce it. Lyrandar, Orien, and Kundarak at the very least now have significantly more standing forces that they did before the Last War, and no one's uttering a peep about it, despite it being clearly against the spirit and the letter of the Edicts. They're supposed to let Deneith and Galifar guard their interests. Thus, citing the enforcement of the Edicts as evidence regarding the status of Stormhome is a flawed line of argument at best. "In the wake of the war, the status of the edicts reamins uncertain... ...Today, more and more of the dragonmarked nobles are holding on to the opinion that the edicts were an agreement with the King of Galifar, not the rulers of the Five Nations. It remains to be seen whether the Thronehold nations can join together to enforce the terms of the edicts once more..." strongly implying that Edicts are rather not being enforced. True enough. But that has nothing to do with his rights--it has everything to do with wealth and power. he is no different from a 'common' noble. Nobles who are no more held under the law. The Five Nations are feudal. FEUDAL. Not democratic, not even close. That means that while the Nobles are theoretically just as liable as a commoner, the truth is that they have plenty of rights and privileges, both explicit and implied, that they enjoy over the rest of Khorvairians. It's stated quite baldly in Sharn: CoT that should a couple of guards in the bowels of Sharn hear about the murder of a commoner by most any kind of nobility, they probably won't do anything about it. Unlike a normal Noble who is held under the thumb of the King and has certain responsibilities and is usually watched as Nobles are ordinarily checks to the King's power, House nobles have no such responsibilities and pose no such threats. Not true. They abide by the rules of the nations that they operate in. This is plainly stated. That they are not citizens gives them fewer rights--not more. House members may not give great credence to the laws of the local nations, but they don't violate them with impunity... at least not for long. It's a feudal society. Most people have no rights. Just responsibilities. In fact, you could get yourself killed in Karrnath just by looking at a noble the wrong way. It's better in Breland, but it they're both classified as "feudal," it can't be that much better. This is borne out by the Brelish justice system as modeled by Sharn, that's so rife with corruption you almost might as well not have rights. I'm not saying that House member openly flaunt the law. I'm saying that they mostly enjoy the same powers and influences that nobles enjoy - which can sometimes include murdering people you don't like. housemember killing a commoner in plain site = housemember going to the gallows or going renegade. The D'marked Houses are not stupid enough to believe that the nations of Khorvaire are going to let them get away with murder with impunity. If the Five Nations are letting them get away with forming marines, militaries, and house guards, why not? After all, a commoner isn't all that important. Even the nobles of those very Five Nations don't really care about them much. Why antagonize a Dragonmarked House over something so trivial as a commoner's life? Dragonmarked Houses clearly sense the waning power of the Thronehold Nations. If they value a house member enough, they could easily arrange for such a person to conveniently "disappear" for a while to let the situation cool down. Perhaps. But locals will certainly know the real story. Moreover, Ghallanda is bound by its obligations to its guild members to be fair and impartial--the inn in my example did nothing to deserve the retraction of its guild status. Other guilds will protest, and Ghallanda will have to deal with the situation. The same goes for any business. You have an overly romantic view of how just the Houses are. Galifar supported the economic dominance of the Dragonmarked Houses and there's every indication that laws and tradition favor the House, not the independent. "... a more common scenario is independents being pressured to join a guild. The houses seek to maintain a monopoly on their trades, and if... ... significant business away from a guild, its house will take action." "If all else fails, an independent might find himself dealing with burglars, vandals, or even threats to his life." So you see, your rose-tinted view of the Houses being benevolent oversight committees fighting in a market protected by laws is largely unsupported. They're more like trade-oriented mafias protecting their turfs. You just don't cross a Dragonmarked House and expect to get away scot-free. If a House can regularly expect to get away with threatening people's lives with murderous intent, burgling, and vandalizing their rivals, I rather don't expect them to have much, if any, obligations to their guild members to be at all impartial or fair. Of course, it helps Guild morale to appear to be impartial and fair, but beyond a certain cost, that ceases to be a real motivating factor. I suspect that the competing inns around said inn would be less alarmed at its downfall and more concerned with filling the void. After all, they kowtow to this selfsame Ghallanda regent just fine. because they cannot sell it in the US, their most profitable market. completely different ballgame here, and a bad comparison. The forces are different, of course, but the extent of power and influence is the same. In fact, Dragonmarked Houses arguably have MORE power and influence in their respective businesses than the FDA. It doesn't matter if the FDA guy is being an ass or asking you to bend so he can screw you over. If you can't get his seal of approval, you don't do business, so you better play nice. True. But that's only because the Houses make great effort to appear as high-quality purveyors of merchandise and services, as well as impartial "regulators" Again, no. It's all in the ECS, and in Dragonmarked, too. Houses set concrete standards of quality and behavior. These aren't abstract ideas that aren't always followed. These are everyday practices that are strictly enforced. It is this guarantee of excellence that explains why longswords are always of baseline PHB quality and are always sold at the same price. That's why Guilds give such a huge reputation bonus to their members. They don't appear to be purveyors of quality goods. They ARE purveyors of quality goods. Regardless of how badly the Ghallanda representative is seen, not having a known signal of quality on your door anymore would probably affect customers on a very visceral, almost subconscious level. If you KNOW that the FDA guys are just being jerks about a product, would you buy something that's not FDA approved? Even when you know it's alright, the withdrawal of FDA approval would give you pause. Like I said, they do it too many times and they are going to get in trouble. Just like the d'marked houses needing to obey local laws. Local laws (and Galifaran law) protects House interests. They don't have antitrust laws. The Five Nations have laws that promote House dominance. Consider one such law. Students who enroll at a guild school must sign contracts that forbid them from competing with the business of the House. That's right. Competition is discouraged by law. Aside from compulsary periods of service and long-term tithes, such students can be locked out of the business in the future by the House using Galifaran law. In fact, it's altogether probable that as soon as you enroll at any Guild, you're signing all your economic indepdence away. If you even glance at a Cannith the wrong way, charges can be brought upon you for anything from "improper behavior" to "unauthorized competition," all of which are nebulous enough to be practically anything. Remember: Mafia, not Microsoft. While the Air trade is still relatively new and minor, and the distances extreme in the sea trade (it's a long ass trip from Sharn to Korth for instance), the competition isn't what kills Orien so much as the general collapse in trade. As far as I could tell, the major impact to Orien during the Last War isn't this at all, but the two terrible events that destroyed their Lightning Rail lines - the destruction of the White Arch Bridge, and the Mourning. Dragonmarked appears quite explicit on this point. goblin pride: And Stormhome is an island that was thought uninhabitable prior to Lyrander's arrival there. Aundair may have simply relinquished it's claim to the island or even rented it to Lyrander in exchange for the House's softening the impact of the weather along that coast. The price a House pays to use the lands of a monarch are negotiable, Stormhome is no exception to that. Absolutely. That doesn't mean that the island isn't ruled by Lyrandar in everything but name. Recall that the island is a house enclave and that means that no strangers are usually tolerated. Only House personnel are usually within it. Note this: "Aundair considers the island to be an extension of its nation and House Lyrandar continues to permit an Audairian force to use part of the island as a base." Note who's doing the unilateral claiming and who's doing the permitting. The island's real rulers can easily be read from the fact that the island was never subjected to much attack during the Last War because of House Lyrandar's neutral position and diplomatic position. In the case of Stormhome, it's quite clear who's calling the shots.
Yakman 03-23-07, 11:27 AM	And the war was an absolute disaster for Cyre. That doesn't mean that on the whole, the Dragonmarked Houses aren't stronger now relative to the Five Nations than they were before the Last War. They are. Which is what I said. They have substantially greater freedom and more ability to get their way. Not every house benefitted on the whole from the war, but every house is benefitting from the current anarchic situation (with the possible exception of Cannith, but one out of thirteen isn't bad). Hard to say. The Edicts of Korth were made in agreement to Galifar, not to any of the Five Nations, and it's debatable whether Aundair (or any of the Five Nations) has the political might to enforce it. Lyrandar, Orien, and Kundarak at the very least now have significantly more standing forces that they did before the Last War, and no one's uttering a peep about it, despite it being clearly against the spirit and the letter of the Edicts. They're supposed to let Deneith and Galifar guard their interests. None of the Five Nations has the capacity today to enforce the Edicts strictly. They are broke. This goes along with the Houses having more power today vis a vis the Throne(s) than ever before. Thus, citing the enforcement of the Edicts as evidence regarding the status of Stormhome is a flawed line of argument at best. "In the wake of the war, the status of the edicts reamins uncertain... ...Today, more and more of the dragonmarked nobles are holding on to the opinion that the edicts were an agreement with the King of Galifar, not the rulers of the Five Nations. It remains to be seen whether the Thronehold nations can join together to enforce the terms of the edicts once more..." strongly implying that Edicts are rather not being enforced. The Edicts not being enforced does not mean that they have been abandoned. Lyrandar would probably love to claim ownership of Stormhome. This does not mean that: a) They have b) They could get away with it So long as the Edicts have not been repealed, formally, then they are the law of the land. While the d'marked houses view the material dissolution of Galifar as a way out of the word of the treaty, the Nations do not feel the same way--and they have vastly more power than the Houses, even in their weakened state. Moreover, the Edicts protect the Houses--they are legally neutral, and are allowed to conduct business in all the Thronehold nations. That's a HUGE benefit in the long run for them. Nobles who are no more held under the law. The Five Nations are feudal. FEUDAL. Not democratic, not even close. That means that while the Nobles are theoretically just as liable as a commoner, the truth is that they have plenty of rights and privileges, both explicit and implied, that they enjoy over the rest of Khorvairians. True. Never said otherwise. However, the noble most likely has explicit privileges on his side... perhaps something saying that commoners cannot testify against them or something like that. D'marked have no explicit protections in the courts--they are not citizens. While they may have a good deal of money and house and guild backing, they are not immune to prosecution. It's stated quite baldly in Sharn: CoT that should a couple of guards in the bowels of Sharn hear about the murder of a commoner by most any kind of nobility, they probably won't do anything about it. True. Happens every day. Most likely the same would happen to a d'marked. Unlike a normal Noble who is held under the thumb of the King and has certain responsibilities and is usually watched as Nobles are ordinarily checks to the King's power, House nobles have no such responsibilities and pose no such threats. The Noble also has RIGHTS. The d'marked only have responsibilities. Do they get away with things? Yes. Do they flagrantly violate the law? No. That would be stupid--and if a member were getting out of hand, the House elders would take care of it themselves or leave him to his fate or co-operate with the investigations. They are not stupid enough to believe that they are above reproach. It's a feudal society. Most people have no rights. Just responsibilities. In fact, you could get yourself killed in Karrnath just by looking at a noble the wrong way. Citizens/locals have rights in feudal societies. even the worst of them, like those of Czarist Russia, spelled out rights for serfs. There weren't many, to be sure, and they were not substantial, but they were there. Karrnath is probably worse than Russia, but I would suspect that the remannts of Galifaran law still guarantee at least a few rights. That's by the by however. In Feudal society, the foreigner has absolutely zero rights--and that's what the d'marked are. It's better in Breland, but it they're both classified as "feudal," it can't be that much better. This is borne out by the Brelish justice system as modeled by Sharn, that's so rife with corruption you almost might as well not have rights. Breland probably has good laws. That they are not followed in Sharn does not mean that the laws do not exist. I'm not saying that House member openly flaunt the law. I'm saying that they mostly enjoy the same powers and influences that nobles enjoy - which can sometimes include murdering people you don't like. Again, it's not carte blanche. A noble murders someone that is a friend of someone powerful and there is going to be an investigation. A noble offing people in the streets is going to be prosecuted. The same goes for the d'marked, although I suspect that the Houses take care of their own with a knife across the throat, a large sack, some heavy rocks, and a good length of cord. If the Five Nations are letting them get away with forming marines, militaries, and house guards, why not? Again, the 5N cannot enforce the laws at this time. There's a good deal of anarchy. This does not mean that the Laws do not exist. After all, a commoner isn't all that important. Even the nobles of those very Five Nations don't really care about them much. Why antagonize a Dragonmarked House over something so trivial as a commoner's life? Agreed. it's probably not dealt with overtly. but house members cannot go on a killing spree and not expect to go to: a) the gallows b) the bottom of the nearest river c) shallow grave Their houses will NOT protect them if they anger the local authority. The House is paramount, not the member. Dragonmarked Houses clearly sense the waning power of the Thronehold Nations. If they value a house member enough, they could easily arrange for such a person to conveniently "disappear" for a while to let the situation cool down. Certainly they could. I suspect that there are number of d'marked in the Shadow Marches and Stormreach who aren't welcome in the 5N. You have an overly romantic view of how just the Houses are. Galifar supported the economic dominance of the Dragonmarked Houses and there's every indication that laws and tradition favor the House, not the independent. "... a more common scenario is independents being pressured to join a guild. The houses seek to maintain a monopoly on their trades, and if... ... significant business away from a guild, its house will take action." "If all else fails, an independent might find himself dealing with burglars, vandals, or even threats to his life." So you see, your rose-tinted view of the Houses being benevolent oversight committees fighting in a market protected by laws is largely unsupported. They're more like trade-oriented mafias protecting their turfs. Strangely enough, this was not the situation that I presented. The scenario I presented dealt with a d'marked house abusing its power on a guild member who had done nothing wrong. You just don't cross a Dragonmarked House and expect to get away scot-free. If a House can regularly expect to get away with threatening people's lives with murderous intent, burgling, and vandalizing their rivals, I rather don't expect them to have much, if any, obligations to their guild members to be at all impartial or fair. Of course, it helps Guild morale to appear to be impartial and fair, but beyond a certain cost, that ceases to be a real motivating factor. I suspect that the competing inns around said inn would be less alarmed at its downfall and more concerned with filling the void. After all, they kowtow to this selfsame Ghallanda regent just fine. Now this is where I beg to differ. The House members are not very numerous--there's only a few thousand of each house, and this is across an area roughly the size of Africa. The Guild members are far more powerful than the Guild administration. It is only through good behavior that the Guilds maintain their status--overt, consistent abuse of power is going to get them burned, and the smart people at the top of the House foodchain will rectify the situation rather than back their own man. Remember, House above all, Guild second, Member last. The forces are different, of course, but the extent of power and influence is the same. In fact, Dragonmarked Houses arguably have MORE power and influence in their respective businesses than the FDA. It doesn't matter if the FDA guy is being an ass or asking you to bend so he can screw you over. If you can't get his seal of approval, you don't do business, so you better play nice. Read up on the pharmaceutical industry and you'll change your tune rather quickly. Again, no. It's all in the ECS, and in Dragonmarked, too. Houses set concrete standards of quality and behavior. These aren't abstract ideas that aren't always followed. These are everyday practices that are strictly enforced. It is this guarantee of excellence that explains why longswords are always of baseline PHB quality and are always sold at the same price. That's why Guilds give such a huge reputation bonus to their members. They don't appear to be purveyors of quality goods. They ARE purveyors of quality goods. Regardless of how badly the Ghallanda representative is seen, not having a known signal of quality on your door anymore would probably affect customers on a very visceral, almost subconscious level. If you KNOW that the FDA guys are just being jerks about a product, would you buy something that's not FDA approved? Even when you know it's alright, the withdrawal of FDA approval would give you pause. The FDA approval matters because of the consistently high-standard of quality that comes out of the drug-approval process. Yes, there are some errors, but they are few compared to the successes. Moreover, this is the FEUDAL era. People talk alot more and know a lot more about the local conditions than they did back then. I chose the Inn for a reason--it does business in a fixed location. If everyone is talking about how it's membership was revoked because the owner refused to grease the palm of the Ghallanda guild administrator, that isn't going to hurt business. if that same administrator pulls the same trick on every inn in town, that administrator is going to get the boot. Local laws (and Galifaran law) protects House interests. They don't have antitrust laws. The Five Nations have laws that promote House dominance. Consider one such law. Students who enroll at a guild school must sign contracts that forbid them from competing with the business of the House. That's right. Competition is discouraged by law. Aside from compulsary periods of service and long-term tithes, such students can be locked out of the business in the future by the House using Galifaran law. That's not a law. That's a legal contract. Big difference. In fact, it's altogether probable that as soon as you enroll at any Guild, you're signing all your economic indepdence away. If you even glance at a Cannith the wrong way, charges can be brought upon you for anything from "improper behavior" to "unauthorized competition," all of which are nebulous enough to be practically anything. Remember: Mafia, not Microsoft. Remember: Contract, not Law. As far as I could tell, the major impact to Orien during the Last War isn't this at all, but the two terrible events that destroyed their Lightning Rail lines - the destruction of the White Arch Bridge, and the Mourning. Dragonmarked appears quite explicit on this point. Which is largely what I said. It might help to read the posts you spend so much time attempting to rebuff.
Nived 03-23-07, 11:41 AM	While similar to a fuedal society life on Khorvaire is not the darkages. 'Peasants' do indeed have rights, it says so in Five Nations under the Galifar Code of Law, which the remaining 'four' Nations all still use under one form or another. Under "5 things every Brelish knows" The Galifar Code of Justice is explicitly stated, including such rights as the right to defend yourself, the right to confront your accuser, and the right to open debate. Bear arms, fair trial, free speech. Not exactly Fuedal concepts.
Roxlimn 03-23-07, 12:26 PM	Nived: The Galifar Code of Justice is explicitly states, including such rights as the right to defend yourself, the right to confront your accuser, and the right to open debate. Bear arms, fair trial, free speech. Not exactly Fuedal concepts. "Right to defend yourself" does not equate to "right to bear arms." In Karrnath (which also upholds Galifaran Law as they interpret it) you get killed for not nodding when you're expected to. Families probably have various kinds of armaments, but I don't know that a commoner can openly wear large weapons on his person without attracting attention. Likewise, "right to confront your accuser," and "right to open debate," are also open to interpretation. There's a lot that's un-feudal about Khorvairian monarchies, but since the book says they're Feudal, we have to take that as far as it goes, and these statements can be interpreted with a very feudal mindset and effect. Yakman: So long as the Edicts have not been repealed, formally, then they are the law of the land. While the d'marked houses view the material dissolution of Galifar as a way out of the word of the treaty, the Nations do not feel the same way--and they have vastly more power than the Houses, even in their weakened state. Moreover, the Edicts protect the Houses--they are legally neutral, and are allowed to conduct business in all the Thronehold nations. That's a HUGE benefit in the long run for them. The Monarchs don't have "vastly more power" than any of the Dragonmarked Barons. In fact, the top family of any ONE Dragonmarked House is reckoned as powerful as any royal family in existence. Deneith has approximately as much military force as any one of the Five Nations - more even than Aundair. And it's in better financial shape than most of them. And it's got Thronehold in its grasp. Lyrandar's fleets, taken together, would probably be more powerful than any one Five Nations fleet, and that's just the fighting forces. In order for them to ship the kind of shipping that they do, their total ship tonnage must be vast indeed. Aside from these obvious powers, Dragonmarked Houses also dominate and control Khorvairian economy. Without their influence, markets and economies would fall into chaos. I don't see anywhere any evidence that the Five Nations are vastly more powerful than any one single House, let alone all of them together. As for Neutrality, well, that's another issue altogether. The Houses certainly don't want to antagonize people who do them important services, and the Monarchs do just that. They can maintain their functional Neutrality whilst conveniently ignoring parts of the Edicts they don't like when it doesn't suit them. Isn't that very much like the Geneva Conventions today? True. Never said otherwise. However, the noble most likely has explicit privileges on his side... perhaps something saying that commoners cannot testify against them or something like that. D'marked have no explicit protections in the courts--they are not citizens. While they may have a good deal of money and house and guild backing, they are not immune to prosecution... ...In Feudal society, the foreigner has absolutely zero rights--and that's what the d'marked are. You're mistaken. Dragonmarked families aren't citizens, but they're not foreigners either. They are explicitly provided for under Galifaran Law, and since they're the ones who made this deal with Galifar, it seems rather short-sighted for them not to have secured certain benefits with regards to their station. Dragonmarked Families have plenty of hardcoded privileges reserved only for them - rights to monopolize businesses and such - that even Nobles do not enjoy. If Dragonmarked members are accounted as powerful as nobility in their own right, and have all these privileges explicitly provided by law, it seems natural to suppose that they ALSO are accorded most or all of the privileges against a commoner that nobles possess. They may very well be immune to prosecution in most cases. Certainly, Cannith's rather cavalier attitude to their Warforged servants argues strongly for a confident standing, legally speaking. Do they flagrantly violate the law? No. That would be stupid--and if a member were getting out of hand, the House elders would take care of it themselves or leave him to his fate or co-operate with the investigations. They are not stupid enough to believe that they are above reproach. Since the ECS equates these people with nobles, I would say that a member could "flagrantly" violate the law about as much as a noble can. Of course, doing so would be bad for business, and it would taint the House reputation. The House would probably come down on him harder than even Galifaran Law would, but that's purely business. As Cannith shows, house members can perform and do perform all kinds of downright traitorous activities that the House conceals and abets - as long as its good for business. Citizens/locals have rights in feudal societies. even the worst of them, like those of Czarist Russia, spelled out rights for serfs. I would like for you to outline the "rights" of the lowest kind of serf in Sengoku Period Japan, Hindustan period India, and post Norman Invasion British Isles. Breland probably has good laws. That they are not followed in Sharn does not mean that the laws do not exist. Breland has "good laws," because? Because the legislative body is dominated by nobles looking after their own interests? Because the King has direct administrative and judicial power and legislative oversight? Because everyone is worried that the Kingdom will collapse under a weak King? Lots of lands, even feudal ones, have good sounding laws on paper. Heck, the way Athenian law sounds, you'd think they had a modern democracy over there. Again, it's not carte blanche. A noble murders someone that is a friend of someone powerful and there is going to be an investigation. A noble offing people in the streets is going to be prosecuted. The same goes for the d'marked, although I suspect that the Houses take care of their own with a knife across the throat, a large sack, some heavy rocks, and a good length of cord. Didn't I just mention that Karrnathi nobles could kill their serfs in the streets? Seriously. It's particularly bad for adventurers. At least serfs are Karrnathi and get some benefit of the doubt. It's all about who you're going to kill. While a noble might get prosecuted for killing another noble, if it's a lowly commoner in some half-darkened street corner in the lower levels of Sharn - well he isn't going to be, and it's in Sharn: CoT, too. Houses don't kill valued members. They don't have to. If Cannith can do something so outrageous as go against Thronehold agreements, I have little doubt that any of the other Dragonmarked Houses wouldn't be all that scared at shipping one of their own quietly out of the country. Again, the 5N cannot enforce the laws at this time. There's a good deal of anarchy. This does not mean that the Laws do not exist. The existence of ambiguous Law is just as a tool for the powerful to wield over the weak. The Dragonmarked Houses are flaunting their Neutrality and Immunity from Attack and Monopolies even as they amass armies, navies, and political influence. In many ways, it's a curse for the Five Nations Monarchs that those Edicts even exist.
Yakman 03-23-07, 01:05 PM	The Monarchs don't have "vastly more power" than any of the Dragonmarked Barons. In fact, the top family of any ONE Dragonmarked House is reckoned as powerful as any royal family in existence. Deneith has approximately as much military force as any one of the Five Nations - more even than Aundair. And it's in better financial shape than most of them. And it's got Thronehold in its grasp. Lyrandar's fleets, taken together, would probably be more powerful than any one Five Nations fleet, and that's just the fighting forces. In order for them to ship the kind of shipping that they do, their total ship tonnage must be vast indeed. Aside from these obvious powers, Dragonmarked Houses also dominate and control Khorvairian economy. Without their influence, markets and economies would fall into chaos. I don't see anywhere any evidence that the Five Nations are vastly more powerful than any one single House, let alone all of them together. Count up the number of people in each house. Go right ahead. ECS says quite clearly that 1 in 100 people in Khorvaire is a House member. 1 in 200 have Dragonmarks. There's approximately 12 million people in the five nations. About 15 million total. So we have approximately 150,000 people in d'marked houses. 75,000 with marks. Split that 13 ways (assuming each house has relatively the same number of people--they don't of course), and each house has approximately 10,000 people--spread over a vast area, without any property to their name, existing by the good will of the local magistrates. None of the 5N is sleeping uneasily over the threat of a d'marked coup. 95% of the work done by a guild is done by members, not by the Houses. The numbers are not in the houses favor--they have plenty of administration to do, plenty of specialized work that only they can do, etc.. Lyrandar runs an enormous guild--but doesn't own even close to the majority of shipping in Khorvaire. Cannith places a plaque on the door of every artificer--and itself probably only does very specialized work. As for Neutrality, well, that's another issue altogether. The Houses certainly don't want to antagonize people who do them important services, and the Monarchs do just that. They can maintain their functional Neutrality whilst conveniently ignoring parts of the Edicts they don't like when it doesn't suit them. That's only due to the current anarchy--it wasn't that way when Galifar was strong. The monarchs are reclaiming their authority--which is why the d'marked are interested in dumping the Edicts of Korth ASAP. Galifar, sprawling and factuous probably wasn't very good at enforcing the Edicts. THe Five Nations, compact and relatively homogenous, will have far more power locally than the galifaran kings ever did. Isn't that very much like the Geneva Conventions today? eh? wha? do you know what the geneva conventions are? You're mistaken. Dragonmarked families aren't citizens, but they're not foreigners either. They are explicitly provided for under Galifaran Law, and since they're the ones who made this deal with Galifar, it seems rather short-sighted for them not to have secured certain benefits with regards to their station. eh? wha? Galifar OWNED THE ENTIRE CONTINENT. The Edicts of Korth disenfranchised the house members. Where are they going to get citizenship from? Riedra? Please. The edicts give them certain protections--they are officially neutral. they have freedom of travel. they get house-issued passports. they don't get other benefits, such as rights reserved for citizens. Dragonmarked Families have plenty of hardcoded privileges reserved only for them - rights to monopolize businesses and such - that even Nobles do not enjoy. You are misunderstanding both monopolies and guilds. The d'marked families don't do most of the work in khorvaire. it's done by locals. so they are not a monopoly--there's plenty of competition. the GUILD is an association of businesses and artisans. It is run by the House--but its members keep their own accounts, compete for work, and hire and fire as they will. Officially, membership is NOT compulsory. there are plenty of inns and blacksmiths and bounty hunters that aren't guild memebers out there in the great world. If Dragonmarked members are accounted as powerful as nobility in their own right, and have all these privileges explicitly provided by law, it seems natural to suppose that they ALSO are accorded most or all of the privileges against a commoner that nobles possess. You've failed to cite any legal privileges of the d'marked. They've been effectively disenfranchised. The Houses exist by the sufferage of the Throne, not the other way around. They may very well be immune to prosecution in most cases. Certainly, Cannith's rather cavalier attitude to their Warforged servants argues strongly for a confident standing, legally speaking. Why would you assume that? There's no information stating this, and it would go against everything we know about the Edicts of Korth. Laws not enforced are still laws. Since the ECS equates these people with nobles, I would say that a member could "flagrantly" violate the law about as much as a noble can. Could? yes. Do? no. Could the local authorities arrest all of them? Yes. Do they? No. Of course, doing so would be bad for business, and it would taint the House reputation. The House would probably come down on him harder than even Galifaran Law would, but that's purely business. As Cannith shows, house members can perform and do perform all kinds of downright traitorous activities that the House conceals and abets - as long as its good for business. Yes they do. And so do nobles, and commoners and everyone else. It's nice to have support structures. I would like for you to outline the "rights" of the lowest kind of serf in Sengoku Period Japan, Hindustan period India, and post Norman Invasion British Isles. Strangely enough, none of these places have anything in common with Khorvaire. Read the post above yours. Breland has "good laws," because? Because the legislative body is dominated by nobles looking after their own interests? Because the King has direct administrative and judicial power and legislative oversight? Because everyone is worried that the Kingdom will collapse under a weak King? Lots of lands, even feudal ones, have good sounding laws on paper. Heck, the way Athenian law sounds, you'd think they had a modern democracy over there. The Athenians had a pretty good system--under Pericles. But after the disaster of the Pelopennesian war, it really sucked. The same thing is happened to Khorvaire--big war, the system has collapsed, and there's a general state of anarchy. Laws are not going to be regularly enforced for a variety of reasons. Didn't I just mention that Karrnathi nobles could kill their serfs in the streets? Seriously. It's particularly bad for adventurers. At least serfs are Karrnathi and get some benefit of the doubt. Yes. This is why Karrnath really, really sucks. However, it says nothing about d'marked being able to get away with the same thing. It's all about who you're going to kill. While a noble might get prosecuted for killing another noble, if it's a lowly commoner in some half-darkened street corner in the lower levels of Sharn - well he isn't going to be, and it's in Sharn: CoT, too. Houses don't kill valued members. They don't have to. If Cannith can do something so outrageous as go against Thronehold agreements, I have little doubt that any of the other Dragonmarked Houses wouldn't be all that scared at shipping one of their own quietly out of the country. They might. They probably do. But at the same time, there are also a lot of d'marked who are sleeping with the fishes, and a number who were paraded to the gallows and hung to make a noble or the king happy. The Houses do not flagrantly violate the law because they aren't in charge and they know that a Kingdom could break them with the stroke of a pen. The existence of ambiguous Law is just as a tool for the powerful to wield over the weak. The Dragonmarked Houses are flaunting their Neutrality and Immunity from Attack and Monopolies even as they amass armies, navies, and political influence. In many ways, it's a curse for the Five Nations Monarchs that those Edicts even exist. They have neutrality only because they ACT NEUTRAL. If they stop being neutral, they lose their protection. Will Orien continue to build up armies to defend its property when the peace is restored? No--it's expensive and the crown can do it better. Will Lyrandar stop building warships when the National navies re-assert authority over the seas? Yes. The Edicts give the rules of conduct for the Houses. They make it clear that they must BE neutral--Cannith cannot only sell products to one side of a conflict, and they must sell at approximately the same price to every purchaser. To keep them honest, they can't own land--the Crown can snatch their enclaves back if they see the House acting out of line. the Crown can arrest House members and try them for offenses--and without the rights that nobles or even commoners have (whatever they may be). Moreover, the Houses hold no monopolies. They run guilds, which by their very nature allows for myriad forms of competition. Anyone with aptitude can become an artificer or a wizard and do what the Houses do. Moreover, I suspect that the Houses themselves only do very high-end work--the best hotel in town probably is run by Ghallanda staff, but this does not mean that lower-end hotels have d'marked staff running around. Cannith doesn't make swords for customers--they make specialized war machines. Deneith doesn't run every merc company in khorvaire--just the best ones, the most specialized ones, etc.. The comparison is like saying that Aston-Martin is competes with Ford. Same industry (heck! same corporation!) Completely different products.
Roxlimn 03-23-07, 01:26 PM	Yakman: So we have approximately 150,000 people in d'marked houses. 75,000 with marks. Split that 13 ways (assuming each house has relatively the same number of people--they don't of course), and each house has approximately 10,000 people--spread over a vast area, without any property to their name, existing by the good will of the local magistrates. None of the 5N is sleeping uneasily over the threat of a d'marked coup. They aren't spread out over as much area as you suggest. For comparison, there's 1 in 10 people who are better off than middle class, and 1 in ten of those are Dragonmarked (1 in 100). 9 normal nobles for every Dragonmarked member, spread out over 13 Thronehold Nations. Doesn't seem all that different to me. If you read Dragonmarked, you'd know that Deneith has enough resources for the foolish to actually contemplate a GALIFARAN (not just a local Brelish or Aundarian) coup, or to establish their own Nation. That's how powerful a Dragonmarked House is, and Deneith isn't reckoned a particularly powerful one. That's only due to the current anarchy--it wasn't that way when Galifar was strong. The monarchs are reclaiming their authority--which is why the d'marked are interested in dumping the Edicts of Korth ASAP. Galifar, sprawling and factuous probably wasn't very good at enforcing the Edicts. THe Five Nations, compact and relatively homogenous, will have far more power locally than the galifaran kings ever did. How do you figure? Galifar the First succeeded where Karrn the Conqueror failed, partially because he succeeded in getting ALL the Dragonmarked Houses behind him. That's got to be weighing heavily on every single one of the surviving monarchs, especially now that the Dragonmarked Houses are especially powerful forces. You think they'd risk antagonizing the Houses? How far do you think the Brelish trust the Thranes? Not far at all, I reckon, and every King right now has to be thinking that any one Dragonmarked House only has to just withdraw its services for him to be totally vulnerable to takeover from other Nations. No, I don't reckon that the remaining Four Monarchs will be all that effectively at enforcing the Edicts at all. If they had that kind of trust and coordination, there wouldn't have been a Last War.
Yakman 03-23-07, 01:56 PM	They aren't spread out over as much area as you suggest. For comparison, there's 1 in 10 people who are better off than middle class, and 1 in ten of those are Dragonmarked (1 in 100). 9 normal nobles for every Dragonmarked member, spread out over 13 Thronehold Nations. Doesn't seem all that different to me. Two problems: 1) You assume that everyone in a d'marked house is as wealthy as a noble. This is not supported by the info. Are there some who are wealthy? Yes. But are there plenty of guys stamping passports, shuffling paper, and generally not doing anything extraordinary? Yes. I would think that more are middle-class than wealthy. 2) If 9:1 doesn't seem like a big difference, then you need to go back to 5th grade math. If you read Dragonmarked, you'd know that Deneith has enough resources for the foolish to actually contemplate a GALIFARAN (not just a local Brelish or Aundarian) coup, or to establish their own Nation. That's how powerful a Dragonmarked House is, and Deneith isn't reckoned a particularly powerful one. Deneith is a transnational mercenary agency. Other houses are simply not in the business of doing the things that it does--procuring fighting men. How do you figure? Galifar the First succeeded where Karrn the Conqueror failed, partially because he succeeded in getting ALL the Dragonmarked Houses behind him. That's got to be weighing heavily on every single one of the surviving monarchs, especially now that the Dragonmarked Houses are especially powerful forces. Why? No one is thinking of doing this, except Aurala, who isn't anywhere close to actually achieving it. You think they'd risk antagonizing the Houses? It's not antagonizing the Houses--in fact, I should think most Houses would actively support a return to Law and Order. It's generally better for business. What Houses get their bread and butter from chaos and anarchy? I can think of three--Jelasco, Medani, and Deneith. Everyone else benefits from peace--especially after 100 years of war. Lyrandar, Orien, Sivis, Ghallanda, Kundarak, Cannith, Phiarlan, Thuranni, and Vadalis are currently all big fans of peace, law, and order (phiarlan and Thuranni not so much on the 'Law' bit). Jelasco, despite making money from war, doesn't particularly enjoy seeing people get killed. As the anarchy from the war subsides, the authorities are going to be strengthened. It's a natural process. The Guilds are going to help strengthen the government. The Houses are tied to the guilds--and make money when the guilds make money. The Houses will do what they can to make sure that people are settled, working, re-building--it's good for business, and Deneith can really shove off as far as the others are concerned. The Houses and the Guilds WANT the national governments to re-establish law and order and good governance. Will some of the current house perks go away? Yes. Will the Houses be in much better shape as a result? yes. How far do you think the Brelish trust the Thranes? Does it matter? Not far at all, I reckon, and every King right now has to be thinking that any one Dragonmarked House only has to just withdraw its services for him to be totally vulnerable to takeover from other Nations. No, I don't reckon that the remaining Four Monarchs will be all that effectively at enforcing the Edicts at all. If they had that kind of trust and coordination, there wouldn't have been a Last War. They will enforce the Edicts because it is in their own self-interest to do so. It has nothing to do with international co-operation. If it did, why would the edicts have been agreed upon in the first place--Galifar was a continent spanning Empire without any neighbors, and it was the organizer of the Edicts.
Melvin the Mediocre 03-23-07, 01:56 PM	I agree. You can be a citizen of an ancestral homeland (or an ancestral House in this case), but a resident of a homeland into which you were born and have lived all your life, but of which you are not a citizen. As an IRL example, when I lived in Saudi Arabia, I met many people who were citizens of Palestine, rather than Saudi Arabia, but who had never been outside Saudi Arabia and whose families had lived in Saudi Arabia for two or more generations. I imagine that being a DM family member would be somewhat similar. But how concerned were those Palestininian citizens with their homland? Would they have felt strong enough ties to Palestine to uproot and go fight for the mother country should the call have been sounded? And how did they feel about Saudi Arabia? Which one did they refer to as "home?"
Yakman 03-23-07, 02:09 PM	As an IRL example, when I lived in Saudi Arabia, I met many people who were citizens of Palestine, rather than Saudi Arabia, but who had never been outside Saudi Arabia and whose families had lived in Saudi Arabia for two or more generations. That's a bad example. The Saudis have denied granting the Palestinians citizenship since the mid-1950s on the basis of an Arab League resolution. Many other arab states have taken a similar tack, for rather (imho) malicious political reasons.
Roxlimn 03-23-07, 02:21 PM	Yakman: 95% of the work done by a guild is done by members, not by the Houses. The numbers are not in the houses favor--they have plenty of administration to do, plenty of specialized work that only they can do, etc.. Lyrandar runs an enormous guild--but doesn't own even close to the majority of shipping in Khorvaire. Cannith places a plaque on the door of every artificer--and itself probably only does very specialized work. I would like for you to quote your source for this. Lyrandar doesn't outright own every ship, of course, but it does own a sizable fleet, and most of the Elemental Galleons and ships equipped with Wheels of Wind and Water are influeced directly by Lyrandar. That makes Lyrandar a very powerful force. Cannith forges also are known to make relatively mundane items, like longswords and such. eh? wha? Galifar OWNED THE ENTIRE CONTINENT. The Edicts of Korth disenfranchised the house members. Where are they going to get citizenship from? Riedra? Please. The edicts give them certain protections--they are officially neutral. they have freedom of travel. they get house-issued passports. they don't get other benefits, such as rights reserved for citizens. If you have anything you can quote to this effect, please do so. Galifar didn't own the entire continent. It just claimed to do so. I would have a hard time believing that the demons in the Demon Wastes swore alliegance to Galifar. As far as I can tell, Galifar and the Houses came to an understanding. Galifar protected them, and they supported him. "The first was to take the dragonmarked houses out of the conflict and gain their support by offering them special status in the new kingdom." Getting royally screwed by not having rights even normal serfs had doesn't sound very much like "special status" to me. It's something for something. Being screwed out of certain rights by getting certain other rights isn't a something - it's just an equivalent deal. While they're not "citizens" in the normal sense, I think that they are afforded many of the same protections as a noble, on the basis that the ECS equates them as being about as powerful and influential. You are misunderstanding both monopolies and guilds. The d'marked families don't do most of the work in khorvaire. it's done by locals. so they are not a monopoly--there's plenty of competition. the GUILD is an association of businesses and artisans. It is run by the House--but its members keep their own accounts, compete for work, and hire and fire as they will. Officially, membership is NOT compulsory. there are plenty of inns and blacksmiths and bounty hunters that aren't guild memebers out there in the great world. YOU need to read more Eberron source material. Dragonmarked quite explicitly states that the Dragonmarked Houses are monopolies. ECS itself states that the Dragonmarked Houses, through the Guilds, dominate trade and economy throughout the Five Nations. Moreover, the Guilds do not encourage competition between members, and there are by-laws and traditions to this effect. Quality standards, for instance, are strictly enforced, and prices are standardized throughout the continent for all products through all qualities. It's hard to compete when all your wares are priced by quality exactly the same as everyone else's. And the Guild will frown on you if you're seen as actively competing. there are plenty of inns and blacksmiths and bounty hunters that aren't guild memebers out there in the great world. There are some, but they are few. This is stated in ECS, and in Dragonmarked. You've failed to cite any legal privileges of the d'marked. They've been effectively disenfranchised. The Houses exist by the sufferage of the Throne, not the other way around. How's about YOU cite a legal anything? I've already provided two laws that favor the Dragonmarked: only they have authority of the Guilds, and they can enforce their monopolies through laws, one of which is the institutionalized indentured servitude of their students. Would you care to cite where it's mentioned that the Dragonmarked have no rights? As far as I can tell, the only restrictions are that they can't own land (serfs can't, either) and that they can't hold political office (usually, only nobles can), and both of these only so long as they're affiliated with their Houses. Would you care to cite anything more than that? Why would you assume that? There's no information stating this, and it would go against everything we know about the Edicts of Korth. Laws not enforced are still laws. Cite what we know about the Edicts of Korth. My information is that Dragonmarked members are accounted as powerful and as influential as nobility. That's pretty powerful. You can't get that powerful just with money. And yes, Dragonmarked power is also mentioned as being partly money, but also partly influence, social and political. It's not consistent with having no legal rights or recourses. Could? yes. Do? no. Could the local authorities arrest all of them? Yes. Do they? No. Same for nobles? Yes they do. And so do nobles, and commoners and everyone else. It's nice to have support structures. I'd say that it's not too common for commoners and middle class to do much in the way of treasonous activities. Nobles, yes, but they're watched closely by their Monarch, so there's less wiggle room. Merchants like Dragonmarked Members have traditionally always been given much more leeway for activity on account of no one really thinking of them as political threats, and them having lots of money. Strangely enough, none of these places have anything in common with Khorvaire. Read the post above yours. They do. They're feudal. Just as Khorvaire is. Says so right there in the ECS. That means that these are our models for social and political structures, as far as we can make them. The Athenians had a pretty good system--under Pericles. But after the disaster of the Pelopennesian war, it really sucked. The same thing is happened to Khorvaire--big war, the system has collapsed, and there's a general state of anarchy. Laws are not going to be regularly enforced for a variety of reasons. Uh, only citizens could vote (not all nationals were), only men could be citizens, and there were lots of slaves, who of course, weren't citizens. It appears okay, but it's not quite so glowing if you're a slave. Yes. This is why Karrnath really, really sucks. However, it says nothing about d'marked being able to get away with the same thing. Of course it does. Deneith House mercenaries under the employ of the King, especially, could be seen as having similar prerogatives. This is particularly so since we know that these guys are as influential as these nobles. They might. They probably do. But at the same time, there are also a lot of d'marked who are sleeping with the fishes, and a number who were paraded to the gallows and hung to make a noble or the king happy. The Houses do not flagrantly violate the law because they aren't in charge and they know that a Kingdom could break them with the stroke of a pen. Could you quote any significant entries regarding the execution of ANY Dragonmarked? Any at all. Particularly ones who were offered to a King just to make him happy. Which part of "Barons are almost as powerful as Five Nations Monarchs," implies that Kingdoms can break Dragonmarked Houses so easily? They have neutrality only because they ACT NEUTRAL. If they stop being neutral, they lose their protection. Will Orien continue to build up armies to defend its property when the peace is restored? No--it's expensive and the crown can do it better. Will Lyrandar stop building warships when the National navies re-assert authority over the seas? Yes. Will Orien continue to build armies? Um, no? Because it HAS no armies? Orien has house guards and elite police forces, but nothing I could spot that had anything like "army" written all over it. Kundarak, yes, but not Orien. If "peace is restored?" Like what? A New Galifar springs up? Who knows when that's going to happen? Will Lyrandar stop building warships when the National navies reassert authority over the seas? Uh, yes? They've ALREADY reasserted authority over their respective territorial waters. Hellcow made this plain in the thread about Lyrandar. As for acting neutral, I can't say that the respective Cannith forgeholds have been acting anything of the sort. Two problems: 1) You assume that everyone in a d'marked house is as wealthy as a noble. This is not supported by the info. Are there some who are wealthy? Yes. But are there plenty of guys stamping passports, shuffling paper, and generally not doing anything extraordinary? Yes. I would think that more are middle-class than wealthy. 2) If 9:1 doesn't seem like a big difference, then you need to go back to 5th grade math. 1. Even if only half of them are, that's still enough. Aside from that: "The house nobles and their immediate relatives share the highest status in the land, equivalent to the royal houses and the highest clergy." 2. 9 spread out over 13 nations is less than 1. I'd say that less than 1 is comparable to 1. Deneith is a transnational mercenary agency. Other houses are simply not in the business of doing the things that it does--procuring fighting men. Of course not. Despite that, Deneith is not reckoned a particularly powerful house. If Deneith can think to stage a coup to reunite Galifar (and it's not particularly strong as Dragonmarked Houses go), what kind of power do the others wield? Why? No one is thinking of doing this, except Aurala, who isn't anywhere close to actually achieving it. Kaius is. He's trying to get Deneith to side with him, and Deneith is steadfastly refusing. For that matter, Boranel would like nothing better than to get his Cannith Forgehold to cladestinely favor him in various ways. There isn't a single Monarch in the Five Nations who doesn't know what Galifar did and how he did it, and they're all trying to get as many of the Dragonmarked on their side as they can. The Houses and the Guilds WANT the national governments to re-establish law and order and good governance. Will some of the current house perks go away? Yes. Will the Houses be in much better shape as a result? yes. Oh yes. You'll get no argument from me there. The Houses generally DO want to establish peace and order, but they want to do it on THEIR terms. You think Lyrandar is buying ships just so it can do what Galifar isn't doing? Why? It can put those ships into so much better use patrolling its Stormhome front and establishing colonies on the Lhazaar Principalities. The Houses have the royals right where they want them, and I doubt they'll be very eager to see that go away. They will enforce the Edicts because it is in their own self-interest to do so. It has nothing to do with international co-operation. If it did, why would the edicts have been agreed upon in the first place--Galifar was a continent spanning Empire without any neighbors, and it was the organizer of the Edicts. Sure. It was in their self-interest not to have had the Last War, too. I guess it never happened, huh? They're ALL only looking after their own self-interest, and if they can lure Dragonmarked into their bed by overlooking a few obsolete Edicts, you bet your bottom they'll do that. There's every evidence that Aundair is all nice and chummy with Lyrandar, and guess how they did that?
Yakman 03-23-07, 02:44 PM	I would like for you to quote your source for this. The source is the very existence of the "Guild" If there were not other producers, then there would be a need for a "Guild". Whenever you use the word, you are assuming that there is more than one business in a given industry. Lyrandar doesn't outright own every ship, of course, but it does own a sizable fleet, and most of the Elemental Galleons and ships equipped with Wheels of Wind and Water are influeced directly by Lyrandar. That makes Lyrandar a very powerful force. That's the Aston-Martin v. Ford again. Lyrandar ships are the BEST. But they are also the most expensive--and there aren't a whole lot of them. Cannith forges also are known to make relatively mundane items, like longswords and such. Yes they do. But so do lots of smaller producers. Cannith, however, has more profitable things to sell that the smaller producers do not--it's main business is high-end, custom made goods OR vast quantities of one piece of equipment. They'll make 500 swords for you if you want, but will direct you down the street if you just want one. If you have anything you can quote to this effect, please do so. The official neutrality does that. They aren't affilitated with a nation or a noble, so a ban on trade/travel from a particular nation or noble doesn't apply to them. 1 + 1 = 2 Galifar didn't own the entire continent. It just claimed to do so. I would have a hard time believing that the demons in the Demon Wastes swore alliegance to Galifar. They owned everything that was important. Not a lot of House activity beyond the Labyrinth so far as I can tell... As far as I can tell, Galifar and the Houses came to an understanding. Galifar protected them, and they supported him. "The first was to take the dragonmarked houses out of the conflict and gain their support by offering them special status in the new kingdom." Getting royally screwed by not having rights even normal serfs had doesn't sound very much like "special status" to me. Getting royally pampered by having the protection of the House sounds like a fine trade. The deal was this: Galifar: You self-regulate, don't cause tons of trouble, and don't drive up prices, and I won't break you into a million pieces, AND you can do business with whoever and where ever you want. Houses: ummm... can we buy land? You know we are going to need some room... Galifar: No. Final offer. Buy a single square inch of property and the deal is off--and I outnumber you 100 to 1. But I'll be nice and let you rent early and often. Houses: Okay. It's something for something. Being screwed out of certain rights by getting certain other rights isn't a something - it's just an equivalent deal. Yes, it is. He allowed them to set up the Guilds. He gave them the power to self-regulate. He made sure that they could not be persecuted for political crimes. He made sure that they would have access to suppliers and clients accross the Kingdom. It's a great deal. While they're not "citizens" in the normal sense, I think that they are afforded many of the same protections as a noble, on the basis that the ECS equates them as being about as powerful and influential. Why do you think this? Do you think Nobles are going to allow that? Nope. Are powerful house members views heard in the chambers of power? Yup. But that's as far as it goes--they don't make the direct decisions. YOU need to read more Eberron source material. Dragonmarked quite explicitly states that the Dragonmarked Houses are monopolies. ECS itself states that the Dragonmarked Houses, through the Guilds, dominate trade and economy throughout the Five Nations. Moreover, the Guilds do not encourage competition between members, and there are by-laws and traditions to this effect. Quality standards, for instance, are strictly enforced, and prices are standardized throughout the continent for all products through all qualities. It's hard to compete when all your wares are priced by quality exactly the same as everyone else's. And the Guild will frown on you if you're seen as actively competing. True. I don't think they are big fans of prices spiralling downwards. BUT are the Houses monopolies? Only in their roles within the Guilds. The Guilds are effective monopolies--the producers outside the guilds are marginal at best. There are some, but they are few. This is stated in ECS, and in Dragonmarked. There are plenty--if you add them all up. ARe they significant? No. But do guilds regulate every rathole motel or village healer? Nope. How's about YOU cite a legal anything? I've already provided two laws that favor the Dragonmarked: only they have authority of the Guilds, and they can enforce their monopolies through laws, one of which is the institutionalized indentured servitude of their students. You've provided no LAWS. You've provided an example of market power and a contract. Cite a law. The Burden is on you--I'm claiming there is no such law, while you claim there is. Would you care to cite where it's mentioned that the Dragonmarked have no rights? AGain, I never said that. I said that they have the rights of a d'marked house member. These are different from the rights of a citizen. As far as I can tell, the only restrictions are that they can't own land (serfs can't, either) and that they can't hold political office (usually, only nobles can), and both of these only so long as they're affiliated with their Houses. Would you care to cite anything more than that? I don't need to. You need to show me how they are legally equal to nobles--and the two things above show that they very clearly are not. Cite what we know about the Edicts of Korth. My information is that Dragonmarked members are accounted as powerful and as influential as nobility. That's pretty powerful. You can't get that powerful just with money. And yes, Dragonmarked power is also mentioned as being partly money, but also partly influence, social and political. It's not consistent with having no legal rights or recourses. The d'marked have rights. They have d'marked rights. They don't have rights afforded to them as nationals. We can go about this all day. Same for nobles? perhaps. It would depend on the rights of the nobility. since we have no examples of this, I'd prefer not to comment. I'd say that it's not too common for commoners and middle class to do much in the way of treasonous activities. Nobles, yes, but they're watched closely by their Monarch, so there's less wiggle room. Merchants like Dragonmarked Members have traditionally always been given much more leeway for activity on account of no one really thinking of them as political threats, and them having lots of money. D'marked aren't political threats because the Law KEEPS THEM FROM BEING POLITICAL THREATS. They can't own land. They can't hold offices. These are the very things that you need to be a political threat. Are the nobles closely watched? Do you have any idea how big Breland or Karrnath are? Even Thrane and Aundair are vast. They do. They're feudal. Just as Khorvaire is. Says so right there in the ECS. That means that these are our models for social and political structures, as far as we can make them. Feudal A does not equal Feudal B. German feudalism differed remarkably from Japanese feudalism differed remarkably from Ethiopian feudalism. Uh, only citizens could vote (not all nationals were), only men could be citizens, and there were lots of slaves, who of course, weren't citizens. It appears okay, but it's not quite so glowing if you're a slave. And there were public trials. And laws were written down. It was WAY better than anything that had ever been imagined even a century before. Of course it does. Deneith House mercenaries under the employ of the King, especially, could be seen as having similar prerogatives. This is particularly so since we know that these guys are as influential as these nobles. point? Could you quote any significant entries regarding the execution of ANY Dragonmarked? Any at all. Particularly ones who were offered to a King just to make him happy. Which part of "Barons are almost as powerful as Five Nations Monarchs," implies that Kingdoms can break Dragonmarked Houses so easily? The statement does not jive with the rest of the books. I'll go with the rest of the books. Do they have things the nations don't have? yeah--lots of disposable income, a greater mobility, etc.. Would it be easy to break a house across all Khorvaire? nope. But could a houses enclaves and assets be seized by one nation? yup. Will Orien continue to build armies? Um, no? Because it HAS no armies? Orien has house guards and elite police forces, but nothing I could spot that had anything like "army" written all over it. Kundarak, yes, but not Orien. If "peace is restored?" Like what? A New Galifar springs up? Who knows when that's going to happen? Will Lyrandar stop building warships when the National navies reassert authority over the seas? Uh, yes? They've ALREADY reasserted authority over their respective territorial waters. Hellcow made this plain in the thread about Lyrandar.The point is moot. The Houses don't want to fund armies, lots of guards, whatever. Lyrandar doesn't want to pay for navies. They don't WANT to become the local authorities. As for acting neutral, I can't say that the respective Cannith forgeholds have been acting anything of the sort. Cannith's situation is fluid and rather exceptional. Moreover, it can be seen as an attempt to restructure the House so as to agree with the Edicts--one, uniform house, under centralized control, that is responsible for the activities of its members. 1. Even if only half of them are, that's still enough. Aside from that: "The house nobles and their immediate relatives share the highest status in the land, equivalent to the royal houses and the highest clergy." House NOBLES and IMMEDIATE RELATIVES. Read before you post, please. 2. 9 spread out over 13 nations is less than 1. I'd say that less than 1 is comparable to 1. wtf? go back to the 4th grade. I'll explain this one more time, just to be nice. ECS states that 1% of Khorvaire is d'marked house members .5% are d'marked 10% are upper class 30% are middle class This means what? there are 10 times more nobles than d'marked house members. Of course not. Despite that, Deneith is not reckoned a particularly powerful house. If Deneith can think to stage a coup to reunite Galifar (and it's not particularly strong as Dragonmarked Houses go), what kind of power do the others wield? They wield their own sort of power--it's just not the sword. Kundarak isn't going to stage a coup, but they can refuse you a line of credit, for instance. Kaius is. He's trying to get Deneith to side with him, and Deneith is steadfastly refusing. For that matter, Boranel would like nothing better than to get his Cannith Forgehold to cladestinely favor him in various ways. There isn't a single Monarch in the Five Nations who doesn't know what Galifar did and how he did it, and they're all trying to get as many of the Dragonmarked on their side as they can. They are all trying to shore up their positions. Kaius needs the mercs in order to control his warlords. Boranel wants to turn Breland into a new Cyre. none of this implies overt control by nations over houses. Oh yes. You'll get no argument from me there. The Houses generally DO want to establish peace and order, but they want to do it on THEIR terms. You think Lyrandar is buying ships just so it can do what Galifar isn't doing? Why? It can put those ships into so much better use patrolling its Stormhome front and establishing colonies on the Lhazaar Principalities. Ha! Read up on the VOC. Lyrandar is buying ships because it anticipates that trade will resume for the first time in 100 years, and to make some money while House Orien is down. The Houses have the royals right where they want them, and I doubt they'll be very eager to see that go away. None of this implies control. It implies mutual self-interest. Sure. It was in their self-interest not to have had the Last War, too. I guess it never happened, huh? Stuff happens. If the d'marked were so powerful they would have prevented the war, or ended it sooner, now wouldn't they? They're ALL only looking after their own self-interest, and if they can lure Dragonmarked into their bed by overlooking a few obsolete Edicts, you bet your bottom they'll do that. There's every evidence that Aundair is all nice and chummy with Lyrandar, and guess how they did that? Propinquity.
Roxlimn 03-23-07, 03:49 PM	Yakman: The source is the very existence of the "Guild" If there were not other producers, then there would be a need for a "Guild". Whenever you use the word, you are assuming that there is more than one business in a given industry. Um, more than one business doesn't equate to a free market economy. That's the Aston-Martin v. Ford again. Lyrandar ships are the BEST. But they are also the most expensive--and there aren't a whole lot of them. Depends on what you mean by "a lot." There's realiably sailing Lyrandar Sailing Ship in every major port of call, and more underway at any given time. That's a lot of shipping. Of course, the shipping managed by the Guild is just that much more, but servicing the elite shipping needs of an entire continent would, IMO, count as "a whole lot of ships." Yes they do. But so do lots of smaller producers. Cannith, however, has more profitable things to sell that the smaller producers do not--it's main business is high-end, custom made goods OR vast quantities of one piece of equipment. They'll make 500 swords for you if you want, but will direct you down the street if you just want one. Would you care to quote a source on that? The official neutrality does that. They aren't affilitated with a nation or a noble, so a ban on trade/travel from a particular nation or noble doesn't apply to them. 1 + 1 = 2 So you don't actually have any basis for that? Only your own interpretation for what "neutrality" means? They owned everything that was important. Not a lot of House activity beyond the Labyrinth so far as I can tell... Significant House activity in the Shadow Marches, which Galifar didn't really control all that much. Also not much direct authority in the Lhazaar Principalities. Large swaths of Khorvaire were never really under Galifaran rule, and those areas still benefitted from House business. Galifar: You self-regulate, don't cause tons of trouble, and don't drive up prices, and I won't break you into a million pieces, AND you can do business with whoever and where ever you want. Houses: ummm... can we buy land? You know we are going to need some room... Galifar: No. Final offer. Buy a single square inch of property and the deal is off--and I outnumber you 100 to 1. But I'll be nice and let you rent early and often. Houses: Okay. Galifar made that arrangement with them when he was on the weaker side - the Galifar Kingdom hadn't yet been established. Seriously... He can't threaten them with destruction he couldn't possibly do. Yes, it is. He allowed them to set up the Guilds. He gave them the power to self-regulate. He made sure that they could not be persecuted for political crimes. He made sure that they would have access to suppliers and clients accross the Kingdom. It's a great deal. It would be a nice tie up, except for the small fact that the Guilds and the Dragonmarked Houses predate Galifar. Why do you think this? Do you think Nobles are going to allow that? Nope. Are powerful house members views heard in the chambers of power? Yup. But that's as far as it goes--they don't make the direct decisions. I think the part where I said "they can't hold political office" makes that plenty clear. Holding political office isn't just a kind of legal protection - it's a kind of legal power. When I say that "I think the Dragonmarked are afforded many of the same protections as nobles," I didn't mean to say that they could hold office. True. I don't think they are big fans of prices spiralling downwards. BUT are the Houses monopolies? Only in their roles within the Guilds. The Guilds are effective monopolies--the producers outside the guilds are marginal at best. The Houses run the Guilds. Guild proceeds go to the Houses. "Dragonmarked" (as in the official Eberron sourcebook) directly describes them as monopolies. There are plenty--if you add them all up. ARe they significant? No. But do guilds regulate every rathole motel or village healer? Nope. There are few. It's not a matter of significance. There's just few. Independent businesses are so rare that they're worth special mention every time they appear within civilized lands. You've provided no LAWS. You've provided an example of market power and a contract. Cite a law. The Burden is on you--I'm claiming there is no such law, while you claim there is. Dragonmarked page 11: The Guilds, first paragraph. That's regarding Contracts forbidding students of Guild schools from future competition with business of the house, among other things. AGain, I never said that. I said that they have the rights of a d'marked house member. These are different from the rights of a citizen. So what was this all about? ...In Feudal society, the foreigner has absolutely zero rights--and that's what the d'marked are. I don't need to. You need to show me how they are legally equal to nobles--and the two things above show that they very clearly are not. I never claimed anything of the sort. I just said that they have as much power and influence as a noble, therefore it would make sense for them to have comparable legal protections. I even quoted the passage that said it was so. perhaps. It would depend on the rights of the nobility. since we have no examples of this, I'd prefer not to comment. I had thought not. D'marked aren't political threats because the Law KEEPS THEM FROM BEING POLITICAL THREATS. They can't own land. They can't hold offices. These are the very things that you need to be a political threat. Are the nobles closely watched? Do you have any idea how big Breland or Karrnath are? Even Thrane and Aundair are vast. Of course they are. Every country has its own peculiar traditions for that. Breland has the Parliament. In order to hold legislative sessions, these nobles have to gather at the capital, away from their native holds. This allows the Brelish King to watch them closely with his spies and also diminishes their connection with their land, even as their expenses at the capital depletes their economic power. Karrnath has Rekkenmark. A centralized center for military command that calls all the Warlords members. Aundair is arguably the country where the nobles are most powerful, and this could be contributory to the fact that they none of them have to be anywhere near the capital, though the Queen still keeps her spies for watching over these factions. Feudal A does not equal Feudal B. German feudalism differed remarkably from Japanese feudalism differed remarkably from Ethiopian feudalism. Perfect. Would you outline some of the rights of serfs in these systems? And there were public trials. And laws were written down. It was WAY better than anything that had ever been imagined even a century before. Better in what way? The Spartans thought it was needlessly complex and worrisome. point? You asked where Dragonmarked could be seen to have the same prerogatives as a Karrnathi noble. The statement does not jive with the rest of the books. I'll go with the rest of the books. Of course it does. You just don't want it to. Do they have things the nations don't have? yeah--lots of disposable income, a greater mobility, etc.. Would it be easy to break a house across all Khorvaire? nope. But could a houses enclaves and assets be seized by one nation? yup. Nope. The Houses have enclaves and assets throughout the continent. A single nation might seize the enclaves and assets of one House in his Nation, but all that would do would be to drive that House out of his Nation, and probably set all the other Houses on edge as well. They could very well decide to leave en masse. After all, if Boranel is crass enough to seize Cannith assets, then he can do the same to any Dragonmarked House. And he would likely be seen as a threat by the other remaining Nations. Not a good move. The Barons are THAT powerful. If you work with that quoted FACT to being with, everything falls into place. If you won't accept facts quoted letter and verse, then why are we even discussing this? You're clearly talking about your own remade version of Eberron, and in that case, you're always right. The point is moot. The Houses don't want to fund armies, lots of guards, whatever. Lyrandar doesn't want to pay for navies. They don't WANT to become the local authorities. Stormhome says otherwise. Their push to get a foothold into Lhazaar says otherwise. Cannith's situation is fluid and rather exceptional. Moreover, it can be seen as an attempt to restructure the House so as to agree with the Edicts--one, uniform house, under centralized control, that is responsible for the activities of its members. A little clarification - the Edicts of Korth doesn't say that the Houses should stay neutral. It just said that they should support Galifar against all other comers, and that's decidedly not neutral. House NOBLES and IMMEDIATE RELATIVES. Read before you post, please. Yes. Those nobles are held to be as powerful as royal families. Members who are not counted as "house nobles" still are firmly in the middle to upper class. This means what? there are 10 times more nobles than d'marked house members Each kingdom's nobles is less than the number of Dragonmarked nobles. That's the point. Whereas the Dragonmarked might be expected to band together to fight a common enemy, the Five Nations cannot. They wield their own sort of power--it's just not the sword. Kundarak isn't going to stage a coup, but they can refuse you a line of credit, for instance. Or choose to flood your economy with money. Or call in massive national debts, or engineer economic meltdown. These guys are strong. It's not military power, but it's power that everyone recognizes and respects all the same. They are all trying to shore up their positions. Kaius needs the mercs in order to control his warlords. Boranel wants to turn Breland into a new Cyre. none of this implies overt control by nations over houses. Who said that? I just said that they're all trying to get the Dragonmarked to side with them, and I cited solid examples. Clearly, they none of them have enough coordination to enforce the Korth Edicts, regardless of how peaceable or lawful they've managed to get their respective realms. Read up on the VOC. Lyrandar is buying ships because it anticipates that trade will resume for the first time in 100 years, and to make some money while House Orien is down. I'm talking about the cumulative build up of the Lyrandar navy over the past 100 years. What's "VOC" stand for? Stuff happens. If the d'marked were so powerful they would have prevented the war, or ended it sooner, now wouldn't they? Nope. The Dragonmarked Houses are powerful. Together, they're more powerful than any single Nation, but their greatest power is economic, not military or political. You can't buy peace in a continent hell bent on war. Besides that, there were factions within each Dragonmarked House that thought that they would benefit from the Last War (and overall, in relation to the Five Nations, they did).
Yakman 03-23-07, 04:00 PM	Um, more than one business doesn't equate to a free market economy. duh. no one is claiming that. Depends on what you mean by "a lot." There's realiably sailing Lyrandar Sailing Ship in every major port of call, and more underway at any given time. That's a lot of shipping. one ship in every major port... and there's how many major ports? a dozen? Of course, the shipping managed by the Guild is just that much more, but servicing the elite shipping needs of an entire continent would, IMO, count as "a whole lot of ships." Lyrandar possesses a great deal of power--but most of it stems from its role in heading up the GUILD. Not of its own resources. Would you care to quote a source on that? I don't need to. AGAIN, we come back to the key issue: the Houses are far better producers than their guild members. But they obviously aren't driving their guild members out of business. In order to do this, they must self-segregate themselves into the highest end merchandise. It's economics. So you don't actually have any basis for that? Only your own interpretation for what "neutrality" means? Given the dearth of sources, I've come to a reasonable conclusion. Significant House activity in the Shadow Marches, which Galifar didn't really control all that much. Also not much direct authority in the Lhazaar Principalities. Large swaths of Khorvaire were never really under Galifaran rule, and those areas still benefitted from House business. These areas were still nominally Galifaran. The people there were still considered Galifaran--and House Members born there were still denied Galifaran citizenship. Galifar made that arrangement with them when he was on the weaker side - the Galifar Kingdom hadn't yet been established. Seriously... He can't threaten them with destruction he couldn't possibly do. No he couldn't destroy them (at that point), but he could (and did) offer them something better--a place in the new order. Why did the Houses support him? Because what he was offering--order, peace, a unified system of governance--was far better than the chaos of overlapping claims and chaos. It would be a nice tie up, except for the small fact that the Guilds and the Dragonmarked Houses predate Galifar. Cross-continental Guilds? Under a single legal code? No, these things did not exist. Were there guilds? Yup. Were they operating under a bizarre amount of different beaurecracies and local regulations? You betcha. Galifar's conquest allowed for the establishment of unified guilds across the entire continent. I think the part where I said "they can't hold political office" makes that plenty clear. Holding political office isn't just a kind of legal protection - it's a kind of legal power. When I say that "I think the Dragonmarked are afforded many of the same protections as nobles," I didn't mean to say that they could hold office. yet you claim that they have the same protections as nobles. But we can already see key differences in the legal codes between nobility and house members. The Houses run the Guilds. Guild proceeds go to the Houses. "Dragonmarked" (as in the official Eberron sourcebook) directly describes them as monopolies. The GUILDS ARE THE MONOPOLIES. THE HOUSES RUN THE GUILDS. THAT'S THE WAY OF THE WORLD. The Houses are monopolies only in their monopolization of guild power. Not in their economic power. Dragonmarked page 11: The Guilds, first paragraph. That's regarding Contracts forbidding students of Guild schools from future competition with business of the house, among other things. [quote] i am not going to explain to you the difference between a contract and a law. suffice it to say, they are different things. [quote]I never claimed anything of the sort. I just said that they have as much power and influence as a noble, therefore it would make sense for them to have comparable legal protections. It would make sense--if the other material agreed. It does not. I had thought not. Note that my refusal to comment had nothing to do with the legality of arresting d'marked house members, only with the legality of arresting noble house members. Perfect. Would you outline some of the rights of serfs in these systems? I am not going to go into the rights of particular feudal contracts as tehy varied tremendously, from the basic enslavement of the serf in Russia to the corvaire systems in Spain and France. Suffice it to say, that different systems gave different amounts of freedoms. Better in what way? The Spartans thought it was needlessly complex and worrisome. Look at the achievements of Athens during their Golden Age. Bad governance does not achieve such miracles. You asked where Dragonmarked could be seen to have the same prerogatives as a Karrnathi noble. And they don't. A member of house Ghallanda cannot legally execute a serf for looking at them cross. A Karrnathi noble CAN. Of course it does. You just don't want it to. I think it's you, not me. Nope. The Houses have enclaves and assets throughout the continent. A single nation might seize the enclaves and assets of one House in his Nation, but all that would do would be to drive that House out of his Nation, and probably set all the other Houses on edge as well. They could very well decide to leave en masse. After all, if Boranel is crass enough to seize Cannith assets, then he can do the same to any Dragonmarked House. And he would likely be seen as a threat by the other remaining Nations. Not a good move. The Barons are THAT powerful. If you work with that quoted FACT to being with, everything falls into place. If you won't accept facts quoted letter and verse, then why are we even discussing this? You're clearly talking about your own remade version of Eberron, and in that case, you're always right. Can a Nation do this? Yes. Will it? No. Again you are failing to recognize the difference between legal authority and the practical application of that authority. It is stupid for a House to antagonize a Nation, just as it is stupid for a Nation to antagonize a House. They have common interests--law, order, stability and making money. This is the brilliance of the Edicts. Stormhome says otherwise. Their push to get a foothold into Lhazaar says otherwise. Stormhome says that they want a tiny island to call home where they won't be bothered by anyone else. Nothing wrong with that. Lhazaar says they are tired of dealing with the pirates and all that unregulated commerce that could be theirs. Again, nothing wrong with that. A little clarification - the Edicts of Korth doesn't say that the Houses should stay neutral. It just said that they should support Galifar against all other comers, and that's decidedly not neutral. They are neutral within the internal affairs of the state, which is what we are discussing. Yes. Those nobles are held to be as powerful as royal families. Members who are not counted as "house nobles" still are firmly in the middle to upper class. Yup. No dispute there. Each kingdom's nobles is less than the number of Dragonmarked nobles. That's the point. Elementary math still eludes you I see... Whereas the Dragonmarked might be expected to band together to fight a common enemy, the Five Nations cannot. evidence? I see the Twelve having collapsed. I see the Five Nations agree to the Treaty of Thronehold. Given the failure of a common enemy to emerge since the signing of the Treaty, I'll withhold judgement until the Riedrans come. Or choose to flood your economy with money. Or call in massive national debts, or engineer economic meltdown. These guys are strong. It's not military power, but it's power that everyone recognizes and respects all the same. Yes it is. No one is denying that. The Houses are very, very powerful. Who said that? I just said that they're all trying to get the Dragonmarked to side with them, and I cited solid examples. And I agreed with you. The Houses have remained true to the Edicts, far more than the Nations--yet you claim that the Houses want to toss the Edicts.... strange. Clearly, they none of them have enough coordination to enforce the Korth Edicts, regardless of how peaceable or lawful they've managed to get their respective realms. My point is that the realms are still in turmoil. We don't know if the Edicts can be enforced in a multi-state Galifar. I believe that the enforcement of the Edicts is in the best interests of each state, as it will prevent a second outbreak of war, which is in no one's interest. I'm talking about the cumulative build up of the Lyrandar navy over the past 100 years. What's "VOC" stand for? Dutch East India Company. Read up. Nope. The Dragonmarked Houses are powerful. Together, they're more powerful than any single Nation, but their greatest power is economic, not military or political. You can't buy peace in a continent hell bent on war. Besides that, there were factions within each Dragonmarked House that thought that they would benefit from the Last War (and overall, in relation to the Five Nations, they did). Indeed. Together, they are more powerful than any nation. Together, they are more powerful (perhaps) than the Five Nations. However, they are not "together". The majority of the Houses want to maintain the Treaty of Thronehold, and will throw their considerable resources into the cause of Peace. While the Houses overall benefitted from the war, in relation to the Five Nations, they also suffered--it's only that the Nations suffered far more.
Roxlimn 03-23-07, 04:57 PM	Yakman: duh. no one is claiming that. So when you said "competition" earlier, it was NOT in the sense of a free market economy? Please elaborate. one ship in every major port... and there's how many major ports? a dozen? Several ships, actually, since there's the Lyrandar Sailing Ships that carry the various goods and cargo, plus the occasional one that specializes in people, and the one that you could occasionally hire charter. Then there's the Lyrandar Ships that aren't equipped with Wheels of Wind and Water, and the Elemental Galleons, of course. Plus the ones that are in transit. Plus the ones that are in minor ports of call (which of course don't always have Lyrandar Sailing Ships available). That's a whole lot of ships there. I estimated Lyrandar holdings in the several hundreds of ships, conservatively, and Hellcow acquiesed that this might very well be the case. Lyrandar possesses a great deal of power--but most of it stems from its role in heading up the GUILD. Not of its own resources. Yes. But which part of "Lyrandar's military navy gathered together could very easily be bigger than any one Five Nations navy?" I don't need to. AGAIN, we come back to the key issue: the Houses are far better producers than their guild members. But they obviously aren't driving their guild members out of business. In order to do this, they must self-segregate themselves into the highest end merchandise. It's economics. OR it's not freemarket economics and no one is competing with anyone else? Given the dearth of sources, I've come to a reasonable conclusion. There's no dearth of sources if you don't keep ignoring what the books say. These areas were still nominally Galifaran. The people there were still considered Galifaran--and House Members born there were still denied Galifaran citizenship. The entire continent was nominally Galifaran. Even the Demon Wastes. No he couldn't destroy them (at that point), but he could (and did) offer them something better--a place in the new order. Why did the Houses support him? Because what he was offering--order, peace, a unified system of governance--was far better than the chaos of overlapping claims and chaos. We don't know why. Whatever we could say further is the purest speculation. Nevertheless, the fact that he wasn't in a position to threaten them rather puts into question your interpretation that Galifar basically browbeat the Dragonmarked Houses into accepting the Korth Edicts. He couldn't have done so. Cross-continental Guilds? Under a single legal code? No, these things did not exist. Were there guilds? Yup. Were they operating under a bizarre amount of different beaurecracies and local regulations? You betcha. Galifar's conquest allowed for the establishment of unified guilds across the entire continent. ? The tenets, traditions, and bylaws of the Houses and the Guilds were established shortly after the War of the Mark. yet you claim that they have the same protections as nobles. But we can already see key differences in the legal codes between nobility and house members. Yes, it would make sense. If they're similar in stature, then it stands to reason that for the most part (and in particular with regards to commoners), they share similar legal protections. Legal protections isn't the same as legal privileges. It's not "protection" to be allowed to be a magistrate, for instance. The GUILDS ARE THE MONOPOLIES. THE HOUSES RUN THE GUILDS. THAT'S THE WAY OF THE WORLD. The Houses are monopolies only in their monopolization of guild power. Not in their economic power. Of course. Even so, Eberron material frequently relate these two to each other, since for many purposes, the House IS the Guild, insofar as monopolization and power is concerned. It would make sense--if the other material agreed. It does not. I have to reiterate that if you insist on ignoring material quoted line and verse, there's no point to this. YOU'RE RIGHT!!!! Because we're actually discussing YOUR Eberron, not material from the books. I am not going to go into the rights of particular feudal contracts as tehy varied tremendously, from the basic enslavement of the serf in Russia to the corvaire systems in Spain and France. Suffice it to say, that different systems gave different amounts of freedoms. How much. What were the rights of the most downtrodden serfs? What were the rights of the best situation that can still be clearly be called serfdom? Look at the achievements of Athens during their Golden Age. Bad governance does not achieve such miracles. Sorry. Not really that impressed, to tell you the truth. And they don't. A member of house Ghallanda cannot legally execute a serf for looking at them cross. A Karrnathi noble CAN. A Deneith mercenary can, particularly if he's working in the service of a Warlord or the King, which he's likely to be if he's patrolling within Karrnath. That's one situation, clearly. Can a Nation do this? Yes. Will it? No. Again you are failing to recognize the difference between legal authority and the practical application of that authority. It is stupid for a House to antagonize a Nation, just as it is stupid for a Nation to antagonize a House. They have common interests--law, order, stability and making money. This is the brilliance of the Edicts. They have common interests and they also have divergent interests. A House wants land, power, prestige. A Nation wants all the Dragonmarked under his belt. A Nation can't afford to do what you say because it's just not a survivable move. I could also slit my throat, but I won't. However, the Houses HAVE been rather obviously violating articles of the Edicts, and as I illustrated, the Monarchs are too busy falling all over themselves wooing the Houses to do anything about it. Stormhome says that they want a tiny island to call home where they won't be bothered by anyone else. Nothing wrong with that. Lhazaar says they are tired of dealing with the pirates and all that unregulated commerce that could be theirs. Again, nothing wrong with that. And the navies that patrol Stormhome, and the island-wide enclave where Lyrandars rule? Whether there's anything wrong with that is immaterial. What they want is land and power within that land, and Stormhome is a naked example of that. Lhazaar is more than just commerce. Lhazaar is land that no one's ever been able to claim before. If they can establish an enclave there, it would be theirs wholly, in every sense of the word. They are neutral within the internal affairs of the state, which is what we are discussing. You must be lost. This is after the Last War. There is no State. If the Edicts of Korth have any provisions for neutrality, please quote. Elementary math still eludes you I see... Please estimate the number of nobles there are in, say, Aundair. evidence? I see the Twelve having collapsed. I see the Five Nations agree to the Treaty of Thronehold. Given the failure of a common enemy to emerge since the signing of the Treaty, I'll withhold judgement until the Riedrans come. The War of the Mark, the continued House-wide persecution of aberrant dragonmarked and the House-wide excoriation and execution of those who intermarry. The Twelve is a powerful influence in modern Galifar and is mentioned as a key resource of Korth in the Five Nations. It continues to develop arcane devices in rivalry with the Arcane Congress. I don't see where this "collapse" has occured. Whereas the Five Nations play cat and mouse games with each other at every turn. Open war is expected by everyone at any moment... If a Nation chooses to antagonize a Dragonmarked House (an unprecedented hostile action), it's quite likely to incite hostility in all the others. And I agreed with you. The Houses have remained true to the Edicts, far more than the Nations--yet you claim that the Houses want to toss the Edicts.... strange. Which part about the militarization of the Houses and their stronger push for owning land did you miss? In fact, I already quoted ECS as saying that it's unsure whether the Thronehold Nations can enforce the Korth Edicts, which the Houses are so clearly violating. My point is that the realms are still in turmoil. We don't know if the Edicts can be enforced in a multi-state Galifar. I believe that the enforcement of the Edicts is in the best interests of each state, as it will prevent a second outbreak of war, which is in no one's interest. No one? Aren't the Warlords of Karrnath spoiling for war? Isn't Aundair's Triumvirate planning schemes to strengthen their position in anticipation of invading another nation? I'm altogether unsure at this point if I've received the same ECS and supplementary books as you. I'm discussing Eberron by Keith Baker. You? The Thronehold nations barely got together long enough to agree to stop fighting in the aftermath of a Nation-wide magical disaster. Even then they aren't all abiding by those agreements. How can you suppose that they'll meet long enough to hammer out a demand to the Houses?!? They can barely keep from each other's throats! NOT having the War in the first place was in everyone's best interests. Arguing from that standpoint has no basis whatsoever. Dutch East India Company. Read up. Is that some kind of Dragonmarked House in your ECS? I confess that I can't find it in mine. Indeed. Together, they are more powerful than any nation. Together, they are more powerful (perhaps) than the Five Nations. However, they are not "together". They're more "together" than the Five Nations are, and that's why they can impose.
Yakman 03-23-07, 05:34 PM	So when you said "competition" earlier, it was NOT in the sense of a free market economy? Please elaborate. Competition does not mean free markets. It's a requirement for free markets, but it does not mean that all economies allowing some competition have free markets. Galifar appears to have been more of a corporatist state than a capitalist one, and its successors are likely following the same path. Several ships, actually, since there's the Lyrandar Sailing Ships that carry the various goods and cargo, plus the occasional one that specializes in people, and the one that you could occasionally hire charter. Then there's the Lyrandar Ships that aren't equipped with Wheels of Wind and Water, and the Elemental Galleons, of course. Plus the ones that are in transit. Plus the ones that are in minor ports of call (which of course don't always have Lyrandar Sailing Ships available). That's a whole lot of ships there. I estimated Lyrandar holdings in the several hundreds of ships, conservatively, and Hellcow acquiesed that this might very well be the case. However, it is still only a portion of the total Guild. Lyrandar is a powerful House--perhaps second only to House Kundarak. However, we have no figures on the total number of ships in the Shipping Guild--it could be several thousand. Who knows? Yes. But which part of "Lyrandar's military navy gathered together could very easily be bigger than any one Five Nations navy?" It certainly could. But we must remember--the Five Nations don't want to fight Lyrandar and Lyrandar doesn't want to fight them--it works out better that way. moreover, the Five Nations have not been focused on building fleets--naval affairs take a back burner when there are rampaging skeletons and zombies and warforged pouring over your borders. OR it's not freemarket economics and no one is competing with anyone else? Perhaps the price controls are that strict. Perhaps not. Who knows? Who has the final say in what the price will be? How does inflation figure into the system? We have no information on this. There's no dearth of sources if you don't keep ignoring what the books say. And the source with the full breakdown of the Treaty of Thronehold is??? The one spelling out the entirety of the Edict of Korth? Or the Code of Galifar? Haven't seen any of that published yet. The entire continent was nominally Galifaran. Even the Demon Wastes. Is there an echo in here? We don't know why. Whatever we could say further is the purest speculation. Nevertheless, the fact that he wasn't in a position to threaten them rather puts into question your interpretation that Galifar basically browbeat the Dragonmarked Houses into accepting the Korth Edicts. He couldn't have done so. And why not? He could have said--I want parallel structures in each of the five kingdoms that I'm setting up--five barons for each House. he chose not to. He could have said that the Guilds would not be allowed. Instead, Galifar chose to integrate them into the Nation-Building enterprise. Which is truly the genius of the system--they were bound to him from the start, which is why his empire lasted for so long. He made them swear that they would not challenge him or his successors in the political arena, and they would allow them to self-regulate the economy--within reason. He gave and he took. It was a satisfactory arrangement for both parties--royals/nobles who wanted to maintain political control and houses who wanted to extend economic control. The tenets, traditions, and bylaws of the Houses and the Guilds were established shortly after the War of the Mark. Local authorities establish laws that the Guilds had to abide by--taxation procedures, zoning ordnances, etc., ad nauseum. Running a business over multiple juridictions can be a real pain in the butt. Transnational corporations deal with all sorts of crap like this today--their internal policies don't mesh with the local laws. Why do you think the Houses were such big fans of the Galifaran experiment? One law and one crown is way better than a dozen laws and a dozen crowns. Yes, it would make sense. If they're similar in stature, then it stands to reason that for the most part (and in particular with regards to commoners), they share similar legal protections. Legal protections isn't the same as legal privileges. It's not "protection" to be allowed to be a magistrate, for instance. It would make sense--if they were citizens. If they were the ones writing the laws. if there weren't these edicts of Korth. The fact is that everything we know suggests that the d'marked housemembers are legally different from nobles/commoners in the 5N--except that they functionally have similar influence as nobles. I accept this. However, I do not accept the claim that they are legally similar and you have failed to prove it. Of course. Even so, Eberron material frequently relate these two to each other, since for many purposes, the House IS the Guild, insofar as monopolization and power is concerned. Yes it does. This can be problematic and confusing. I have to reiterate that if you insist on ignoring material quoted line and verse, there's no point to this. You quote one phrase and then ignore the others. They have to be looked at as a whole and reconciled according to reason. How much. What were the rights of the most downtrodden serfs? What were the rights of the best situation that can still be clearly be called serfdom? I really can't tell you. Czarist Russia was probably the worst--mid 19th century Russia, where owners could inflict all sorts of cruel punishments without recourse to the authorities and buy and sell their serfs with impunity. Other forms of serfdom weren't so terrible--serfs having to give a few days of labor a week or a month to the lord, but being able to keep a portion of their crop. It really varies from time and place. Sorry. Not really that impressed, to tell you the truth. Your loss. A Deneith mercenary can, particularly if he's working in the service of a Warlord or the King, which he's likely to be if he's patrolling within Karrnath. That's one situation, clearly. Only if he's acting in the name of the noble. And the serf looking at the merc isn't going to get killed--the serf looking at the noble will--just the merc swings the sword. A merc looking for employment, walking down the street does not have the right to kill a serf that looked cross at him. He might do it, and he might get away with it, but that does not give him the right to do it. They have common interests and they also have divergent interests. A House wants land, power, prestige. A Nation wants all the Dragonmarked under his belt. A Nation can't afford to do what you say because it's just not a survivable move. I could also slit my throat, but I won't. However, the Houses HAVE been rather obviously violating articles of the Edicts, and as I illustrated, the Monarchs are too busy falling all over themselves wooing the Houses to do anything about it. And as I have said, the situation in khorvaire is fluid--the laws and traditions are not being upheld currently. Moreover, the 5N are struggling to re-establish central control and rebuild their countries--they may very well do things contrary to the edicts. this does not mean that the edicts have been repealed, nor that the royals are interested in doing so. Houses cannot challenge the Nations without risking their business contacts--their neutrality allows them to do business across the continent. As you said, Deneith COULD stage a coup against the 5N. It doesn't. Moreover, you've failed to prove that all the Houses are interested in Land. you've shown that Lyrandar is (maybe)... but Sivis? Vadalis? Jelasco? And the navies that patrol Stormhome, and the island-wide enclave where Lyrandars rule? Whether there's anything wrong with that is immaterial. What they want is land and power within that land, and Stormhome is a naked example of that. Lhazaar is more than just commerce. Lhazaar is land that no one's ever been able to claim before. If they can establish an enclave there, it would be theirs wholly, in every sense of the word. Stormhome is a few miles across--it's not anything to crow about. Lhazar is full of people--just people without a government. Moreover, is Lyrandar really interested in governing such a vast territory? I dunno. I can see why they are interested in increaseing their influence there though--there's plenty of unregulated shipping and it's the best way to get from Sharn to Karrnath/Aundair by boat. You must be lost. This is after the Last War. There is no State. If the Edicts of Korth have any provisions for neutrality, please quote. YOU SAID IT YOURSELF!!! omg... The Edicts quite clearly laid out that Houses were not to make alliances with noble houses. They were not to marry into noble houses. They were not to purchase land. They were to sell their services to those who could pay the price, regardless of origin, creed, alliance, etc., the Houses were allowed to do business with warring factions without repercussion. That's neutrality if I've ever heard it. Please estimate the number of nobles there are in, say, Aundair. Okay... since you've obviously never passed 4th grade, I'll humour you. ECS says roughly 10% of the population are upper-class (we'll take that as nobles). 2m in Aundair... so that's about 200,000 nobles in one country. There's only 150,000 members of all 13 d'marked houses across the whole continent. The War of the Mark, the continued House-wide persecution of aberrant dragonmarked and the House-wide excoriation and execution of those who intermarry. The Twelve is a powerful influence in modern Galifar and is mentioned as a key resource of Korth in the Five Nations. It continues to develop arcane devices in rivalry with the Arcane Congress. I don't see where this "collapse" has occured. Whereas the Five Nations play cat and mouse games with each other at every turn. Open war is expected by everyone at any moment... If a Nation chooses to antagonize a Dragonmarked House (an unprecedented hostile action), it's quite likely to incite hostility in all the others. Not if that D'marked House was getting too big for its britches--like Lyrandar claiming that they no longer owed fealty to Aundair, or Cannith seizing a section of Sharn as a new base of operations. I suspect the others would probably join in. Which part about the militarization of the Houses and their stronger push for owning land did you miss? In fact, I already quoted ECS as saying that it's unsure whether the Thronehold Nations can enforce the Korth Edicts, which the Houses are so clearly violating. Wow. You do love the circular argument. No one? Aren't the Warlords of Karrnath spoiling for war? Isn't Aundair's Triumvirate planning schemes to strengthen their position in anticipation of invading another nation? I'm altogether unsure at this point if I've received the same ECS and supplementary books as you. I'm discussing Eberron by Keith Baker. You? The Thronehold nations barely got together long enough to agree to stop fighting in the aftermath of a Nation-wide magical disaster. Even then they aren't all abiding by those agreements. How can you suppose that they'll meet long enough to hammer out a demand to the Houses?!? They can barely keep from each other's throats! NOT having the War in the first place was in everyone's best interests. Arguing from that standpoint has no basis whatsoever. The rational, and sane people of the world know that there's no benefit to war. The loonies, like the Karrnathi warlords and the spoiled Aundairan princelings think otherwise. There's no need to hammer out demands to the Houses. I've never suggested that, either, so I don't know where that's coming from. Is that some kind of Dragonmarked House in your ECS? I confess that I can't find it in mine. I was suggesting that you find some real world grounding. They're more "together" than the Five Nations are, and that's why they can impose. They have no forum to impose anything. No unified structure to do so, and currently, no need.
loseth 03-23-07, 06:44 PM	The Saudis have denied granting the Palestinians citizenship since the mid-1950s on the basis of an Arab League resolution. Many other arab states have taken a similar tack, for rather (imho) malicious political reasons. :confused: That has absolutely nothing to do with whether it's a bad example of the situation I described (it's actually a perfect example). If you mean that you don't like the Saudi stance on granting Saudi citizenship to Palestinian refugees, then I agree.
gaerfindel 03-24-07, 05:59 PM	We can debate back-and-forth as to the legal protections a House member enjoys in this or that of the Five (now Four) Nations. Or we can speculate on this question: What about Q'Barra? While Galifaran Law does not hold sway over the entire peninsula and the accompanying isles, the Kingdom of New Galifar was founded by those looking to escape the ravages of the Last War and live under the Old Laws. I'm pretty sure that, in addition to the Five Nations, House Denieth's Sentinal Marshalls are permitted to persue criminals into Q,Barra. However, New Galifar is a very young nation, and it's subjects (no noble following the Old Laws would deign to allow the plebians to call themselves citizens) are a libertarian lot. Might the Houses get away with more, given the semi-isolated nature of the young nation?
dunkeykong 03-24-07, 08:09 PM	Regardless of whether or not they have a legal immunity from local laws, the houses are respected and feared enough so that they can take care of most infractions without involving the local authorities. I imagine it would work somewhat like the U.S. goverments status of forces agreements we have with the countries our bases are in. Were able to punish our servicemen for most infractions, however with big crimes(murder, rape, armed robbery, etc.) the local authorities intercede to try and punish the offenders.
Darth Syntax 03-24-07, 08:50 PM	We can debate back-and-forth as to the legal protections a House member enjoys in this or that of the Five (now Four) Nations. Or we can speculate on this question: What about Q'Barra? While Galifaran Law does not hold sway over the entire peninsula and the accompanying isles, the Kingdom of New Galifar was founded by those looking to escape the ravages of the Last War and live under the Old Laws. I'm pretty sure that, in addition to the Five Nations, House Denieth's Sentinal Marshalls are permitted to persue criminals into Q,Barra. However, New Galifar is a very young nation, and it's subjects (no noble following the Old Laws would deign to allow the plebians to call themselves citizens) are a libertarian lot. Might the Houses get away with more, given the semi-isolated nature of the young nation? On a functional level I would imagine that the Houses could indeed get away with a lot in Q'Barra, but I would venture to guess that galifaran law still is supposed to hold sway there, even more than in the post-galifaran nations. If the Q'Barrans (Q'Barrese? Q'Barrites? Q'Barri?) get their act together and all then we're likely to see the traditional restrictions on the Houses return in Q'Barra.
Roxlimn 03-24-07, 09:53 PM	Yakman: Competition does not mean free markets. It's a requirement for free markets, but it does not mean that all economies allowing some competition have free markets. Galifar appears to have been more of a corporatist state than a capitalist one, and its successors are likely following the same path. I don't know that competition is at all viewed positively. The guilds are mentioned as discouraging it at multiple points. You could, of course, ignore that as much as you've been ignoring other parts of actual Eberron text. However, it is still only a portion of the total Guild. Lyrandar is a powerful House--perhaps second only to House Kundarak. However, we have no figures on the total number of ships in the Shipping Guild--it could be several thousand. Who knows? It was never in question that Lyrandar's actual ships were only a fraction of Guild ships. What I'm getting at is, in the water, Lyrandar's military resources rival that of any other of the Five Nations, and its economic resources on top of that are immense, which is still dwarfed by the ships it controls through the Guild. It certainly could. But we must remember--the Five Nations don't want to fight Lyrandar and Lyrandar doesn't want to fight them--it works out better that way. moreover, the Five Nations have not been focused on building fleets--naval affairs take a back burner when there are rampaging skeletons and zombies and warforged pouring over your borders. Which part of Eberron says that the Five Nations aren't seagoing nations and that they've been ignoring shipbuilding? Aundair, Karrnath, and Breland all have strong maritime interests for various reasons. It's fortunate that neither Lyrandar nor the Monarchs want a fight, but that wasn't the point. The point is only what I said - that Lyrandar's military resources are THAT strong - a clear violation of the Korth Edicts. Perhaps the price controls are that strict. Perhaps not. Who knows? Who has the final say in what the price will be? How does inflation figure into the system? We have no information on this. Uh, we DO?!?!? The Guilds strictly enforce prices. There IS no price variation across Eberron which is why longswords cost the same wherever you buy them as long as you buy them from Guild members. Are we talking about your Eberron again? And the source with the full breakdown of the Treaty of Thronehold is??? The one spelling out the entirety of the Edict of Korth? Or the Code of Galifar? Haven't seen any of that published yet. Of course, it would be helpful to have those in a discussion like this, but you do willfully ignore what's already been printed, so it seems that having those texts would be largely pointless, because it'd just be more text that you can ignore at your convenience. Instead, Galifar chose to integrate them into the Nation-Building enterprise. Which is truly the genius of the system--they were bound to him from the start, which is why his empire lasted for so long. He made them swear that they would not challenge him or his successors in the political arena, and they would allow them to self-regulate the economy--within reason. He gave and he took. It was a satisfactory arrangement for both parties--royals/nobles who wanted to maintain political control and houses who wanted to extend economic control. Sigh. Now you're ignoring me. Are we having a discussion or are you just selectively reading what you like? If you're just going to monologue, you clearly don't need me. Galifar didn't have the support of the Houses at the start of his conquests. That came after he started. The Houses predate Galifar. What we know from the Korth Edicts is only what is printed. Nothing more. Anything else is speculative. We don't know that the Houses were the reason his Empire lasted as long as it did, although by the measure of Empires, it didn't last very long at all. Regardless of that, there was no browbeating involved. That's just you. Galifar was in no position to dictate when he approached the Houses. He offered them "special status" in his new kingdom, and I find it hard to believe that they would have no rights as you've implied or have fewer rights, as youo've later implied. You know, you could at least be consistent with yourself. Local authorities establish laws that the Guilds had to abide by--taxation procedures, zoning ordnances, etc., ad nauseum. Running a business over multiple juridictions can be a real pain in the butt. Transnational corporations deal with all sorts of crap like this today--their internal policies don't mesh with the local laws. Why do you think the Houses were such big fans of the Galifaran experiment? One law and one crown is way better than a dozen laws and a dozen crowns. Again, purely speculative. Before Galifar was Galifar, the Houses were already Houses. They could own land, they could hold political power. Why would they accept such a chump deal as you imply? Local Authorities would be small fry to them. It's altogether conceivable that the Guilds could EASILY dictate measures of taxation and zoning. This is just speculative, of course, but so is your take that they had to kowtow to these local warlords. Frankly, I find it hard to believe that isolated kingdoms could dictate anything to the Houses, as powerful as they were. It would make sense--if they were citizens. If they were the ones writing the laws. if there weren't these edicts of Korth. The fact is that everything we know suggests that the d'marked housemembers are legally different from nobles/commoners in the 5N--except that they functionally have similar influence as nobles. I accept this. However, I do not accept the claim that they are legally similar and you have failed to prove it. A monologue that's wholly tangential to the point. Yes it does. This can be problematic and confusing. So we should just ignore it, right? You quote one phrase and then ignore the others. They have to be looked at as a whole and reconciled according to reason. I've ignored nothing. I've accounted for the Korth Edicts, I've accounted for as many quotes as you've taken the effort to produce (none, by the way). You've ignored text lifted directly from the books. I really can't tell you. In short, you have little to no basis for claiming what rights serfs had. All you have is your opinion based on nothing that's printed. Only if he's acting in the name of the noble. And the serf looking at the merc isn't going to get killed--the serf looking at the noble will--just the merc swings the sword. A merc looking for employment, walking down the street does not have the right to kill a serf that looked cross at him. He might do it, and he might get away with it, but that does not give him the right to do it. Um, this IS post-Last War Eberron. The Houses are doing all sorts of things they have no "right" to. Heck, none of the Monarchs have any solid "right" to the Galifar throne anymore, and the Valenar have debatable rights to their land. The Treaty of Thronehold only served to codify what was already happening - and it didn't even codify everything. Talking about "right" at this point is largely illusory. "Right" depends on who you ask. The last 100 years of Khorvaire history proves that whoever has the might to do something has the right to do it, and that's all that we can really say at this point. And as I have said, the situation in khorvaire is fluid--the laws and traditions are not being upheld currently. Moreover, the 5N are struggling to re-establish central control and rebuild their countries--they may very well do things contrary to the edicts. this does not mean that the edicts have been repealed, nor that the royals are interested in doing so. Um... yeah. Except for the part for the Monarchs are trying to re-establish central control. They are, of course, but that usually involves installing themselves as King of Galifar. Not likely to happend anytime soon. In the meantime, their efforts to "reestablish central control" is only eroding what little authority they have over the Houses. Houses cannot challenge the Nations without risking their business contacts--their neutrality allows them to do business across the continent. As you said, Deneith COULD stage a coup against the 5N. It doesn't. It may yet. Dragonmarked includes a intrigue about just this very thing. It would probably be foolhardy for the Houses to openly challenge the Monarchs as rulers of their own land, but they're just not doing that yet. Moreover, you've failed to prove that all the Houses are interested in Land. you've shown that Lyrandar is (maybe)... but Sivis? Vadalis? Jelasco? At what point did I say that all the Houses were interested in owning land? Is this more monologueing? Stormhome is a few miles across--it's not anything to crow about. Lhazar is full of people--just people without a government. Moreover, is Lyrandar really interested in governing such a vast territory? I dunno. I can see why they are interested in increaseing their influence there though--there's plenty of unregulated shipping and it's the best way to get from Sharn to Karrnath/Aundair by boat. Stormhome sets a precedent. Q'barra arguably holds authority over even less land than Lyrandar can claim. There is no conclusive evidence of Lyrandar wanting to forge a nation for itself, but they are obviously interested in owning and governing strategic parcels of land for maritime purposes. For the same reasons, the Lhazaar Princes also protect their land holdings. Owning and governing ANY sort of land is against the Korth Edicts. The Edicts quite clearly laid out that Houses were not to make alliances with noble houses. They were not to marry into noble houses. They were not to purchase land. They were to sell their services to those who could pay the price, regardless of origin, creed, alliance, etc., the Houses were allowed to do business with warring factions without repercussion. That's neutrality if I've ever heard it. Then you've never heard it. Clearly, these provisions, as you've printed here, make no provisions against allying with each other for political interest, or for allying themselves with Kings not of Galifar, or any of the Monarchs. Most of these provisions only serve to undermine whatever political influence the Houses might amass for themselves, not enough to ensure neutrality. Okay... since you've obviously never passed 4th grade, I'll humour you. We can do without the personal attacks. They only serve to undermine your own reputation, you know. ECS says roughly 10% of the population are upper-class (we'll take that as nobles). 2m in Aundair... so that's about 200,000 nobles in one country. There's only 150,000 members of all 13 d'marked houses across the whole continent. 1. An unspecificied part of those 200 000 are merchants not of noble origin, and part of those merchants are Dragonmarked. 2. 150000 holding significant power over the whole continent sounds more powerful than less than 200 000 holding power over only their own country. Not if that D'marked House was getting too big for its britches--like Lyrandar claiming that they no longer owed fealty to Aundair, or Cannith seizing a section of Sharn as a new base of operations. I suspect the others would probably join in. And risk another War of the Mark? Nobody wants that. Just the current undertone of hostility between Deneith and Tharash'k is making the other Houses distinctly uneasy. And you think that there'll be open warfare among the Houses, just like that? Of course, you're wrong already. Lyrandar doesn't owe fealty to Aundair. None of the Houses owe fealty to any of the Monarchs. That would hold them under the power of the Monarchs, and that clearly goes against any claims of neutrality. If you like, we can go directly to Hellcow himself and ask him if the Houses owe fealty to anyone, but I don't believe so. If the House members were citizens, they would have to owe fealty to their Monarchs. That's precisely why none of them are citizens - so that they'll remain nonpartisan. Wow. You do love the circular argument. No circular argument is occuring. I'm reminding you of a piece of information I've already mentioned that you're intermittently ignoring. You've lost track of arguments all over the place. Are you even really reading what I'm posting? The rational, and sane people of the world know that there's no benefit to war. The loonies, like the Karrnathi warlords and the spoiled Aundairan princelings think otherwise. The people of Karrnath think that their King is a weakling and would like nothing better than for the hostilities to continue. Read Five Nations. The people of Thrane think that the Karrnathis are a vile monstrous people and would like nothing better than a crusade to wipe them from the face of Khorvaire. The Aundairians think that the Thranes are holding lands that should rightfully be theirs and would like to have it back. Where exactly do these "sane rational people of the world" reside, and how are they instrumental in holding any kind of peace? Seriously man, are even conversant with the Khorvaire? There's no need to hammer out demands to the Houses. I've never suggested that, either, so I don't know where that's coming from. How exactly, are the Nations going to issue a joint demand for the Houses to abide by the Korth Edicts? If they don't issue a joint demand, whichever nation is irking the Houses will simply find itself locked out of various economic services, for various reasonable reasons. Are you insinuating that the Nations are simply going to act in unison against the Houses, without coordination or meeting, as if they were just one big Hivemind? Just so you know, the Khorvairians are mainly Human, not Dromite. I was suggesting that you find some real world grounding. Which part of the VOC resembles Lyrandar? The part where they control magically superior vessels and entire populations of magic-wielders? Maybe it's the part where they have direct control over the maritime economies of most of the Known World? Oh wait, is it the part where the VOC administrators have as much power as royal houses? I forget. Seriuously, man. What you're talking about resembles Khorvaire in very little, largely tangential ways, and if you're going to keep ignoring not only the Eberron text, but my posts as well, I see little point in continuing this discussion. You can carry on with your monologue on your own.
Roxlimn 03-24-07, 10:09 PM	gaerfindel: However, New Galifar is a very young nation, and it's subjects (no noble following the Old Laws would deign to allow the plebians to call themselves citizens) are a libertarian lot. Might the Houses get away with more, given the semi-isolated nature of the young nation? True. However, nothing in the text implies that the Houses are even interested in this little out-of-the-way community. For the large part, the Houses are concerned only with things they think are significant or are going to pan into something significant. Trade with Sarlona and expansion into Xendrik are major extracontinental interests. I doubt that House members can get away with more than in other nations. Being small, the King's power in Q'barra is more concentrated and the people are probaly going to be less tolerant of someone from the old world who wants to lord it over them. dunkeykong: And yet, I can also see where the Houses would like to try to circumvent national justice systems by smuggling their scions out of the country in question, much like the US tries to extradite Americans wanted for various henious crimes from other countries.
dunkeykong 03-24-07, 10:55 PM	dunkeykong: And yet, I can also see where the Houses would like to try to circumvent national justice systems by smuggling their scions out of the country in question, much like the US tries to extradite Americans wanted for various henious crimes from other countries. Oh, definetley. The guilds will get away with what ever they think they can. Their so used to being "beside" the law, I would imagine such manipulation would run rampant.
Roxlimn 03-25-07, 12:29 AM	Well, only as rampant as is profitable for the House. ;)
Roxlimn 03-25-07, 04:52 AM	I don't think that the Houses have judicial proceedings per se. After all, they're largely merchant clans, not governments. I expect the Houses don't have separate governing bodies at all, but have all power concentrated into a single chain of command. There's no need to bring an offender into the House for trial - his status is decided on by a viceroy or some other administrator, and his sanctions provided unilaterally. Being largely economic concerns, I don't believe that the Houses do prisons or anything like that sort of thing, except as extraordinary sanctions for people they want to keep alive, but are too dangerous to leave lying about. I think that they largely leave that kind of thing to the Monarchs, since they can. Easier to bribe the local official to throw away the key than it is to provide the prison yourself. Excoriation provides us with some example for how House Justice is served - when it's their own, it seems as if they have complete jurisdiction. When it's others, they can always do things similar to Excoriation. It'll be extremely difficult to live when none of the merchants in major cities want to do business with you. Guild members, I think, are largely still citizens, and the Houses couldn't care less what happens to them, unless it reflects interests of the House or the Guild. When it comes to valued Arms of the House, or outright House Members, I think the Houses try to reach some kind of an arrangement with the authorities, particularly for the more disgraceful offenses. Can't have that appearing in the Chronicle. Of course, not being actual citizens frees House Members from several crimes. You can't, for instance, be a traitor to Breland if you're not even a citizen. Likewise, crimes that would be called treason for citizens would likely be classed as something else for House members - perhaps Espionage or some such thing. Nevertheless, the Houses aren't indepedent of the Kings, and they do have their businesses to see to. If a House member offends the law (and thus embarrasses the House) often enough, he might just find himself without a House sponsored barrister in the middle of an actual trial. There's only so much you can cost your House without ultimately becoming a liability - and that's probably the worst crime to commit against your Dragonmarked House.
Yakman 03-26-07, 11:05 AM	:confused: That has absolutely nothing to do with whether it's a bad example of the situation I described (it's actually a perfect example). If you mean that you don't like the Saudi stance on granting Saudi citizenship to Palestinian refugees, then I agree. In fact, about an hour after making this post, I re-thought what I said, and man, that IS the perfect RL example. My apologies for any confusion caused. MY Bad.
Yakman 03-26-07, 12:49 PM	I don't know that competition is at all viewed positively. The guilds are mentioned as discouraging it at multiple points. You could, of course, ignore that as much as you've been ignoring other parts of actual Eberron text. Which is why I suggested that Galifar is a corporatist state--the government worked in co-ordination with the powerful economic players. Really, try to read. It was never in question that Lyrandar's actual ships were only a fraction of Guild ships. What I'm getting at is, in the water, Lyrandar's military resources rival that of any other of the Five Nations, and its economic resources on top of that are immense, which is still dwarfed by the ships it controls through the Guild. Which part of Eberron says that the Five Nations aren't seagoing nations and that they've been ignoring shipbuilding? Aundair, Karrnath, and Breland all have strong maritime interests for various reasons. It's fortunate that neither Lyrandar nor the Monarchs want a fight, but that wasn't the point. The point is only what I said - that Lyrandar's military resources are THAT strong - a clear violation of the Korth Edicts. My point was that yes, Lyrandar can probably defeat the five nations in naval combat--but is there a reason for this? I believe that it is not only because the naval strength of Lyrandar has increased significantly over the last century due to the War (the national navies are fighting each other, not pirates, so someone has to keep the trade flowing), but also because of the military priorities of the 5N. When you are fighting a war on land for your national survival, the war on sea is almost always secondary. it diverts valuable resources from the fronts which matter the most. Lyrandar may be in violation of the Korth Edicts, yes, but again, this does not mean that the Korth Edicts have been rescinded or no longer apply to Lyrandar in htis fashion. Uh, we DO?!?!? The Guilds strictly enforce prices. There IS no price variation across Eberron which is why longswords cost the same wherever you buy them as long as you buy them from Guild members. Are we talking about your Eberron again? We know that Guilds enforce Prices. My point was that we don't know how price points are determined. do the Guilds do it? The houses? Is it based on a sliding scale? Of course, it would be helpful to have those in a discussion like this, but you do willfully ignore what's already been printed, so it seems that having those texts would be largely pointless, because it'd just be more text that you can ignore at your convenience. I re-read the relevant passages in Dragonmarked over the weekend. You know, the bit about the Guilds? Turns out that it never says that the majority of any sector consists of guild members. It never says that non-Guild trade is marginalized. It says that non-Guild members who begin to become significant players are often pressured to joining the Guild. But that says nothing about small store owners and artificers who could very conduct the bulk of day-to-day trade in Khorvaire. Galifar didn't have the support of the Houses at the start of his conquests. That came after he started. The Houses predate Galifar. Not true. Re-read Dragonmarked. Some houses supported him and some opposed him. We do not have a precise time-line of events. You are making an assumption without evidence. What we know from the Korth Edicts is only what is printed. Nothing more. Anything else is speculative. We don't know that the Houses were the reason his Empire lasted as long as it did, although by the measure of Empires, it didn't last very long at all. Regardless of that, there was no browbeating involved. That's just you. Galifar was in no position to dictate when he approached the Houses. He offered them "special status" in his new kingdom, and I find it hard to believe that they would have no rights as you've implied or have fewer rights, as youo've later implied. You know, you could at least be consistent with yourself. Karrn the Conqueror attempted to control all of khorvaire. Some of the Houses were for him, and some were against him. Luckily, a Second War of the Mark was averted, and Karrn was defeated. However, when Galifar I came to the fore, it was clear that again, the threat of a Second War was brewing, as some houses supported unification and some stood in opposition. Galifar I had a bully pulpit. His armies, his wizards, and the d'marked who had lined up behind him were clearly the dominant power on the continent. What was he offering? Stability, rule of Law, and opportunities for undreampt of profits. Stick and carrot -- stick and carrot. As for the Houses being unwilling to make concessions, it's obvious that they did. The Edicts of Korth forced the d'marked out of the political arena (overtly at least) and guaranteed their economic role in the new Empire. If anything, the Houses gave up significantly more than Galifar I did. He removed actors that could have worked to destablize his Empire and transformed them into solid supporters of the state Again, purely speculative. Before Galifar was Galifar, the Houses were already Houses. They could own land, they could hold political power. Why would they accept such a chump deal as you imply? It was in their best interests. Read below. Local Authorities would be small fry to them. It's altogether conceivable that the Guilds could EASILY dictate measures of taxation and zoning. This is just speculative, of course, but so is your take that they had to kowtow to these local warlords. Frankly, I find it hard to believe that isolated kingdoms could dictate anything to the Houses, as powerful as they were. Again, we don't see this. The Houses had been able to own property, but why were none of the major kingdoms under direct house control if they were so powerful? Whey do we not read of a Kingdom of Cannith in the list of the pre-Galifaran Five Nations? But obviously the Houses were powerful politically and militarily --this is why the Edict removes them from the political and military arenas. But were the Houses interested in military conquest? I dunno. Why did they seek military and political power before the Conquest? Probably to protect their economic assets and to defend themselves against rival Houses and other actors. Galifar I placed the state as the defender of their economic assets and made it clear to the nobility that the d'marked did not threaten their power. The reason the Houses are so powerful today is because of the stability afforded to them by Galifar--before his rule, they were caught up in the vortex of a chaotic political system that prevented the consolidation of economic power. So we should just ignore it, right? No. We need to reconcile the discrepencies, and if necessary, eliminate statements that throw the remainder of the books out of whack. Remember, multiple writers and multiple editors. I've ignored nothing. I've accounted for the Korth Edicts, I've accounted for as many quotes as you've taken the effort to produce (none, by the way). You've ignored text lifted directly from the books. You've ignored that the Korth Edicts specifically apply to the d'marked and their Houses and specifically change the legal status of both the Houses and House members. You've focused on the passages which extol the power and respect held by the Houses (which I do not deny), while ignoring the legal principles which have been said to underly not only the state structures but the House structures. In short, you have little to no basis for claiming what rights serfs had. All you have is your opinion based on nothing that's printed. what? I've claimed that serfs had different rights in different times. As such, the blanket statement that 'There are Serfs in Eberron' means little--the writers are applying their own visions of serfdom to the texts they are writing, and I don't know which vision that may be. I can only look at the examples given and try to reconcile them to some particularities that define a serfdom economy. Um, this IS post-Last War Eberron. The Houses are doing all sorts of things they have no "right" to. Heck, none of the Monarchs have any solid "right" to the Galifar throne anymore, and the Valenar have debatable rights to their land. The Treaty of Thronehold only served to codify what was already happening - and it didn't even codify everything. Talking about "right" at this point is largely illusory. "Right" depends on who you ask. The last 100 years of Khorvaire history proves that whoever has the might to do something has the right to do it, and that's all that we can really say at this point. The Law dictates the Right--in terms of legality. The four principle pieces of Law that we have seen for the system are: 1) the Code of Galifar, which (theoretically) applied to all inhabitants of Khorvaire, and is most likely still maintained in the 5N (and Q'barra) 2) The Edicts of Korth, which lay out the rights and responsibilities of the d'marked housese and their members 3) Local laws of the Thronehold Nations, which vary tremendously 4) The Treaty of Thronehold, which ended the Last War Moreover, books are contradictory as to the Treaty. In Dragonmarked it states that the Kingdom of Galifar was disestablished by the Treaty. Yet it claims on the same page that House Deneith is still holding the island of Thronehold waiting for the crowning of the legitimate King. In Players' Guide to Eberron we see an agreement between two 5N rulers with the title, "Heir to Galifar" under their names. Does Deneith not recognize the treaty? Does Deneith have a candidate for the Throne in mind? Do these two particular rulers not recognize the disestablishment of the Kingdom? Was there a succession mechanism built into the treaty to allow for a new King? We need to reconcile the differences in the text. Um... yeah. Except for the part for the Monarchs are trying to re-establish central control. They are, of course, but that usually involves installing themselves as King of Galifar. Kaius and Boranel aren't too keen on that. Krozen doesn't particularly care for Galifar--at least not one with all these unbelievers. Only Aurala wants to re-unite the Kingdom, but she isn't in a position to do so. Not likely to happend anytime soon. In the meantime, their efforts to "reestablish central control" is only eroding what little authority they have over the Houses. Re-establish central control means that the Kings are calling the shots in their respective Kingdoms. Do each of them want to put an end to the anarchy and turmoil within their lands? Certainly. Is this effort eroding their control over the Houses? The opposite--it makes them stronger vis a vis the Houses--and (most of) the Houses are most likely okay with that--it reduces costs and increases profits. At what point did I say that all the Houses were interested in owning land? Is this more monologueing? Nice word. Make that one up on the fly? Stormhome sets a precedent. Q'barra arguably holds authority over even less land than Lyrandar can claim. There is no conclusive evidence of Lyrandar wanting to forge a nation for itself, but they are obviously interested in owning and governing strategic parcels of land for maritime purposes. For the same reasons, the Lhazaar Princes also protect their land holdings. Owning and governing ANY sort of land is against the Korth Edicts.Governing an enclave is not against the Korth Edicts. Is Stormhome rather large for an enclave? Perhaps. But Aundair wasn't concerned about Stormhome during the war, so much as keeping the rampaging Thranes and Karrns and Brels out. Has Lyrandar established governance over the enclave? Sure. Have they claimed it? Nope. Could it legally claim ownership if Aundair decided to re-take the Island? Probably not. 1. An unspecificied part of those 200 000 are merchants not of noble origin, and part of those merchants are Dragonmarked. True. Then again, we know that d'marked merchants are scarce on the ground and do not make up a significant part of the population--roughly 1% of each country--there are only about 20,000 in the whole of Aundair.2. 150000 holding significant power over the whole continent sounds more powerful than less than 200 000 holding power over only their own country. 150,000 holding economic power over a continent doesn't beat out 1,500,000 holding actual power over the continent. Ten to one, I'll go with the Ten. And risk another War of the Mark? Nobody wants that. Just the current undertone of hostility between Deneith and Tharash'k is making the other Houses distinctly uneasy. And you think that there'll be open warfare among the Houses, just like that? Of course, you're wrong already. Lyrandar doesn't owe fealty to Aundair. None of the Houses owe fealty to any of the Monarchs. That would hold them under the power of the Monarchs, and that clearly goes against any claims of neutrality. If you like, we can go directly to Hellcow himself and ask him if the Houses owe fealty to anyone, but I don't believe so. If the House members were citizens, they would have to owe fealty to their Monarchs. That's precisely why none of them are citizens - so that they'll remain nonpartisan. Problem is the Houses can't own the Enclaves. They lease them from the Monarchs. While they pay no fealty, they do pay rent. The people of Karrnath think that their King is a weakling and would like nothing better than for the hostilities to continue. Read Five Nations. The people of Thrane think that the Karrnathis are a vile monstrous people and would like nothing better than a crusade to wipe them from the face of Khorvaire. The Aundairians think that the Thranes are holding lands that should rightfully be theirs and would like to have it back. Where exactly do these "sane rational people of the world" reside, and how are they instrumental in holding any kind of peace? Seriously man, are even conversant with the Khorvaire? The "sane rational people" are the ones who signed the Treaty of Thronehold--meaning the people with real power. They've kept the peace for two years, which is rather remarkable. How exactly, are the Nations going to issue a joint demand for the Houses to abide by the Korth Edicts? If they don't issue a joint demand, whichever nation is irking the Houses will simply find itself locked out of various economic services, for various reasonable reasons. Are you insinuating that the Nations are simply going to act in unison against the Houses, without coordination or meeting, as if they were just one big Hivemind? Just so you know, the Khorvairians are mainly Human, not Dromite. The HOUSES benefit from the Korth Edicts. They don't have to finance men-at-arms to protect their holdings. They don't have to worry about local powers moving against them. They are allowed to travel freely and make business deals with everyone in the continent. it is to their benefit to have teh Korth Edicts--that's why they agreed to them in the first place and maintained their adherance to them (generally) during teh Last WAr. I've never insinuated the Nations acting in unison against the Houses--that's something you pulled out of the air. I have stated that each nation will attempt to individually assert the Edicts on their own as they recover from the War. Which part of the VOC resembles Lyrandar? The part where they control magically superior vessels and entire populations of magic-wielders? Maybe it's the part where they have direct control over the maritime economies of most of the Known World? Oh wait, is it the part where the VOC administrators have as much power as royal houses? I forget. VOC ships and soldiers wiped the floor with the Javanese and subborned an island of millions to the corporate interests of a few shareholders in Amsterdam. If that's not magic, I don't know what is. Seriuously, man. What you're talking about resembles Khorvaire in very little, largely tangential ways, and if you're going to keep ignoring not only the Eberron text, but my posts as well, I see little point in continuing this discussion. You can carry on with your monologue on your own. :(
Nived 03-26-07, 03:06 PM	Listen guys I half glanced at todays posts on this thread but didn't read them in depth, the nit picking is really kinda boring to read, I didn't notice it mentioned so I want to bring it up. Today's Sharn Inquisitive offers insight into the discussion at hand. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebsi/20070326a) The Houses, even high ranking members of the houses do not have diplomatic immunity. They don't Breland arrested a high ranking member of House O and was well within its athority to do so. House O, however doesn't have to like it and can simpley refuse service to Breland. My conclusion is thus, whatever Jarla d’Orien was doing was not worth the hassle of arresting her. This shows the Houses can and do put economic and social pressure on the governments to influance them, but they do not have a legal immunity. If they did why would Dragonmarked have an entire section on House Sivis lawyers?
Yakman 03-26-07, 03:46 PM	If they did why would Dragonmarked have an entire section on House Sivis lawyers?Or have a picture of Ms. d'Orien behind bars?
DarthMidget 03-26-07, 04:41 PM	The Houses, even high ranking members of the houses do not have diplomatic immunity. They don't Breland arrested a high ranking member of House O and was well within its athority to do so. House O, however doesn't have to like it and can simpley refuse service to Breland. Well, this is very true, and from the Inquisitive report it seems like something that House Orien was obviously willing to do. Also many people have equated the right to refuse service as an integral part of Dragonmarked House power. Indeed that is correct. This power, however, is the prime example of a double-edged sword. Breland is a vast land with a massive amount of natural resources, plenty of subsistence farming, a large number of magical industries located in Sharn and other cities, and a stable and loyal population. Not to mention that this population and nation makes up a sizeable chunk of the economic activity on Khorvaire. So, House Orien refuses service to Breland due to a dispute w/the crown. Breland easily produces about 1/4th of the economic activity on Khorvaire. Probably more than 1/4th since Breland is larger, and arguably more productive than smaller states like Thrane and Aundair. So, House Orien, the house that controls the land-trading guilds and couriers has basically just decided to ignore 1/4th of the economy of Khorvaire. Now, it is obvious that such a refusal of service would have immediate detrimental effects for Breland. Goods and people would not move via lightning rail. Mail and packages would not be delivered. This, however, would quickly change. House Lyrander would start gobbling up trade via sea and air as fast as they could. Independant merchant caravans would spring up over night as opportunistic entrepreneurs moved in to haul all the immobile Orien freight. Breland's economy would lose money, but they would find ways around it. With each passing day more and more non-House Orien individuals would become involved in the brand new ground transportation industry. House Orien, meanwhile, could not hope to find anything to replace Breland's massive economic power. Then there are public relations issues. Let us suppose that Breland is able to spin the dispute in a way that paints House Orien as being very unfair. Such a media campaign probably would not be very hard to do in Breland itself, which is really the population center that matters. So then you might have public demonstrations (organized or spontaneous) outside House Orien holdings. Guild members dominated by House Orien would likely be torn between nationalistic fervor for Breland, and various contractual agreements with House Orien. Would there be guild rebellions? What could House Orien do if there was? But beyond the borders of Breland the situation might even be worse. Not only does Breland suffer, but so do the merchants in Thrane, Aundair, Zilargo, Darguun, and Droaam. These people can't move goods cross-country into Breland, and nor can they receive them. Thus by House Orien's actions not only is money being lost in Breland, but it is also affecting everyone that Brelish merchants do business with. Then there is the question of who will 'blink', so to speak, first. The lords of House Orien gather no taxes, own no fiefs, and control no vast territories. All their power comes from the money they can get from the use of their abilities, and the control of their guilds. With each passing day that the Brelish embargo was maintained the lords of House Orien would be losing money. They would be losing a vast amount of money. Breland's economy, would also be suffereing, but the people ultimately in charge, the nobles of Brelands, would not be hurting as badly as the Orien. The nobles of Breland have serfs, taxes, lands, and resources to fall back on. House Orien doesn't. So, while I would agree that the ability to cut various powers off from the larger economic circle is a valuable tool in diplomatic relations it is a tool that would only very, very reluctantly be used. House Orien, or indeed any other house, would likely only use such a tool in dire straights indeed. Thus, the true message behind the Sharn Inquisitive story is not that House Orien would use such power loosely, but that something very, very, very important just occured between Breland and House Orien. What was this mysterious Dragonmarked lady doing that was so important that House Orien would take the risk of losing thousands in profits from even a momentary embargo?
Roxlimn 03-27-07, 10:46 AM	Arguably, nobles also do not enjoy this diplomatic immunity either, since it's obvious from the Sharn sourcebook that nobles CAN and are arrested for particular actions. However, I think what's more indicative here isn't that Orien flexed its muscles back at Breland, but what precipitated the arrest in the first place? It occured at the border so it can't be all that simple, and the Orien Dragonmarked can't have been arrested for something petty since we have clear indications that legally or otherwise, they are usually not vulnerable to such petty concerns. There are two ways I'd speculate about it. 1. That Jarla d'Orien was traveling incognito and was extremely reluctant to expose her identity for reasons of her own. She must've allowed them to arrest her for something she casually overlooked, or an unavoidable or accidental crime, thinking she could find some way out of it without using the power of her house. The fact that this report is in the papers signifies that she has, in at least one respect, failed in her mission and that Orien has had to use its considerable influence to get her out of the situation. 2. Breland and Orien both know where and why Jarla d'Orien was arrested. Breland arrested Jarla d'Orien (for various reasonable charges) to precipitate a confrontation between it and the House. The House suspended operations not to have Jarla d'Orien released, but as part of a clandestine conflict with Breland. Once the situation was stabilized, there was no longer any reason to hold Jarla (and needlessly antagonize Orien) and she was released. DarthMidget: I don't believe that Khorvairian economics operates in that fashion. It's clear that the Houses, through the Guilds, dominate and control economic activity. Competition is controlled - it's probably seen as a bad thing. Furthermore, the Houses only compete in the most indirect of manners. Tharash'k's recent mercenary poaching of Deneith interests is seen by all the Houses as a wrongful incursion in what is rightfully Deneith interests, and Deneith is incensed over not only the loss of business but the implied challenge. It could very well come to open war - competition does that - and none of the other Houses want that at all. I think that it's likely that before such could develop, the other Houses would intercede and mediate a solution. Interfering in another House's business itself is seen as taboo, which is probably why the other Houses are so far leaving Deneith and Tharash'k well enough alone to settle their differences. If Lyrandar started eating up Orien interests by open competition, it would lessen both Houses's powers, since they would no longer be the transport cartel they currently are, but competitors. Lyrandar openly challenging Orien in this fasion would likely result in competitory retaliation and that isn't good for either of their interests. It's possible that independents would take advantage of the situation, but there aren't that many independent operators out there. The Guild controls most operators, and they won't move if the Guild tells them to stay put. I think that this basic lack of competition is what defines Khorvairian economy and what makes it different from modern capitalist economics and thinking. Then there are public relations issues. Let us suppose that Breland is able to spin the dispute in a way that paints House Orien as being very unfair. Such a media campaign probably would not be very hard to do in Breland itself, which is really the population center that matters. So then you might have public demonstrations (organized or spontaneous) outside House Orien holdings. Guild members dominated by House Orien would likely be torn between nationalistic fervor for Breland, and various contractual agreements with House Orien. Would there be guild rebellions? What could House Orien do if there was? Most Guild members would be under contract, and I imagine that this is applicable on international (Galifar) law enforced by House Deneith. Even where the loyalist citizens of Breland would like to resume business, the Brelish King cannot ignore the rule of law without jeopardizing the legitimacy of his own claim, especially since the Orien action is only an embargo and not open warfare. If he rescinds Guild law, then the other Houses would probably look askance at such a stance and would likely view it as a breach of trust - they would probably lean against such a ruler in the future, or even in the present. The mere possibility of a House-wide embargo would be a terrible threat and the subsequent disintegration of economic controls would be disastrous to any Kingdom, far more than it would be to any of the Houses. But beyond the borders of Breland the situation might even be worse. Not only does Breland suffer, but so do the merchants in Thrane, Aundair, Zilargo, Darguun, and Droaam. These people can't move goods cross-country into Breland, and nor can they receive them. Thus by House Orien's actions not only is money being lost in Breland, but it is also affecting everyone that Brelish merchants do business with. Orien is all-powerful within the trade of moving goods overland and it can selectively move whatever goods it chooses to. It can, for instance, maintain the flow of goods, but not the transport of people or the flow of overland trade within Breland only. Brelish merchants would effectively be forced to buy only from extranational sources, with the resulting loss of power for the Brelish King. Then there is the question of who will 'blink', so to speak, first. The lords of House Orien gather no taxes, own no fiefs, and control no vast territories. All their power comes from the money they can get from the use of their abilities, and the control of their guilds. With each passing day that the Brelish embargo was maintained the lords of House Orien would be losing money. They would be losing a vast amount of money. Breland's economy, would also be suffereing, but the people ultimately in charge, the nobles of Brelands, would not be hurting as badly as the Orien. The nobles of Breland have serfs, taxes, lands, and resources to fall back on. House Orien doesn't. I disagree. Keith Baker states in ECS that Dragonmarked Barons rival kings and princes in power and influence. They have their taxes - the money they collect from the guilds they control, who tax the craftsmen who work within them. While the nobles of Breland might keep limping along, it's more probable that the resulting chaos would be catastrophic. Orien moves practically everything overland. Harvests will rot in their farms. Trade goods will not be sold, people can't get to work. It's not a matter of a slight inconvenience. It will probably be more like economic meltdown. Orien isn't a corporation. It isn't even like a monopolistic multinational corporation. It's more powerful than that. It's a Dragonmarked House. Imagine, it you will, the utter chaos that would result if all the banks and stock exchanges in the world suddenly stopped doing their business for good. Then include the financial arms of every government in that strike. Money would only have whatever value any yahoo decided. In fact, since no one is printing paper money (and laws prevent anyone else from doing it), it's altogether likely that trade would revert to barter systems. It's altogether possible that a more socially advanced people in the future who know of social contracts and constructs that we can't fathom only view banks and financial government controls as conveniences they can do without, but we don't know what they know. As far as we know, it'll be a complete disaster. It doesn't matter who gets blamed. It doesn't matter that we think bankers are crap. We still suffer economic devastation. That's how Khorvairians will think of it. They don't know that competition is good. They may not believe that quality products ultimately brings in more customers. They probably don't know the first thing about free market structures and the concepts of capitalism. Having a Dragonmarked House cut its services to your nation would be a very terrifying prospect.
Nived 03-27-07, 12:49 PM	Smuggling seems the most obvious boarder violation that House O would participate in. Just a thought.
DarthMidget 03-27-07, 02:16 PM	I don't believe that Khorvairian economics operates in that fashion. It's clear that the Houses, through the Guilds, dominate and control economic activity. Competition is controlled - it's probably seen as a bad thing. I don't disagree that it might be viewed badly, but competition, however, cloaked in secrecy, would exist even in the most tightly regimented economies. Some of the surplus of goods not being moved by House Orien would, inevitably, find their way to House Lyrander holds. Even if House Lyrander did not set out on this path intentionally it would occur. This multiplication of Lyrander business would simply be an inevitable outcome of an Orien embargo. Furthermore, the Houses only compete in the most indirect of manners. Tharash'k's recent mercenary poaching of Deneith interests is seen by all the Houses as a wrongful incursion in what is rightfully Deneith interests, and Deneith is incensed over not only the loss of business but the implied challenge. Agreed. This, however, is really a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Tharashk is dealing in mercs from Droaam, because Deneith has no appreciable presence there. Orien removing itself from Breland would create a similar situation in Breland. I am sure Tharashk did not intend to get into the merc business in Droaam, but the economic growth required an outlet. Tharashk businessmen/orcs saw the opportunity to be made, and took it. They weren't trying to 'compete' with House Deneith, but it happened. The same would occur in Breland if Orien undertook an embargo of any great length. It could very well come to open war - competition does that - and none of the other Houses want that at all. I agree, but I really see that as an another reason which is why House Orien would be so very reluctant to place a major embargo on another nation. I think that it's likely that before such could develop, the other Houses would intercede and mediate a solution. Interfering in another House's business itself is seen as taboo, which is probably why the other Houses are so far leaving Deneith and Tharash'k well enough alone to settle their differences. Probably. Again, another reason why House Orien's theoretical super-embargo would not occur. In my previous post, however, I was not dealing with potential resolution of the issue, but what would happen if the issue did in fact occur. I agree that most major economic players in Khorvaire would have a vested interest in making sure such an embargo did not happen. If Lyrandar started eating up Orien interests by open competition, it would lessen both Houses's powers, since they would no longer be the transport cartel they currently are, but competitors. Lyrandar openly challenging Orien in this fasion would likely result in competitory retaliation and that isn't good for either of their interests. House Orien could attempt to compete w/House Lyrander, but that would likely not be possible, and I will attempt to explain why. It is much easier to expand shipping channels than it is to train crews, build ships, and run a shipping industry. That is what House Lyrander actually does. Also, let us suppose that in the imagined scenario of an Orien embargo the Lyranders start sucking up the excess goods that need to be moved. House Orien is somewhat irked at this. How would they retaliate though? It would cost them an immense amount to try to form their own alternate shipping line which could then only compete w/Lyrander in areas not affected by the embargo since Orien shipping goods out of the embargo area would defeat the purpose of the embargo in the first place. Not to mention that a Orien attempt at competition would cost them more money while they were bleeding funds from their embargo against Breland. It's possible that independents would take advantage of the situation, but there aren't that many independent operators out there. The Guild controls most operators, and they won't move if the Guild tells them to stay put. Agreed. There are not many independant operators as the situation stands. If there was a major Orien embargo, however, you would find many NEW independant operators. These people would spring up due to the demand created by the Orien embargo. I did not intend to convey the idea that I believe there are many independant operators. I doubt that there are. My assertion was that new operators would be created in response to the economic demand House Orien's embargo placed upon the Brelish economy. Most Guild members would be under contract, and I imagine that this is applicable on international (Galifar) law enforced by House Deneith. I would point out that House Deneith, as far as I can tell, does not actually enforce the law. They can cross international borders to apprehend wanted persons, but they cannot act as local police, and definitly not as local magistrates. We really have no information on how a contractual dispute between a D-House and Guild would be dealt with. That such a dispute might occur amidst the backdrop of a national embargo further complicates the situation. Even where the loyalist citizens of Breland would like to resume business, the Brelish King cannot ignore the rule of law without jeopardizing the legitimacy of his own claim, especially since the Orien action is only an embargo and not open warfare. I do not understand what the rule of law has to do with an embargo (not trying to be condescending or insulting). I just don't see that they are connected. Please clarify. If he rescinds Guild law, then the other Houses would probably look askance at such a stance and would likely view it as a breach of trust - they would probably lean against such a ruler in the future, or even in the present. Right, and I agree. I don't, however, see that Boranel would have to rescind any laws. The market would take care of itself. There would be economic hardship for Breland, no doubt, but I would counter that the Brelish would work the problem out for themselves in short order. The mere possibility of a House-wide embargo would be a terrible threat and the subsequent disintegration of economic controls would be disastrous to any Kingdom, far more than it would be to any of the Houses. If you are talking about all 12 D-marked houses entering into am embargo I would agree. I do not, however, believe that merely because Orien created an embargo that the other 11 would naturally follow. I would say that in the chaos following the Last War that some of those among the 12 would try to profit from this. Oh, they might not do so openly, and they might assure House Orien of morale support. Behind closed doors, however, the other 11 would be making plans to increase their own power. The 12 are mortal after all. ;) Orien is all-powerful within the trade of moving goods overland and it can selectively move whatever goods it chooses to. It can, for instance, maintain the flow of goods, but not the transport of people or the flow of overland trade within Breland only. Agreed. If, however, you embargo Breland than you are effectively embargoing all other nations that engage in land trade with Breland. So the merchants of Aundair, Thrane, Drooam, Zilargo, and Darguun would suffer just as much as Breland. Any embargo that doesn't move goods inside Breland will have critical effects on Breland's neighbors. There is no way to get around this. This is for two reason: A. Brelands neighbors can't get the goods they want from the Brelish industries. B. The Brelish have less money to buy foreign goods with so even if Orien agrees to move foreigh goods into Breland (which in and of itself lessens the punitive effects of an embargo) the Brelish don't have the money to buy those goods. Brelish merchants would effectively be forced to buy only from extranational sources, with the resulting loss of power for the Brelish King. Why? There are waterways in Breland which I am sure make use of Lyrander river barges. Also, as I stated previously you would find many independant entrepreneurs suddenly appearing overnight. Breland's economy would be very sluggish, but would adapt. That's simply the nature of complex systems. I disagree. Keith Baker states in ECS that Dragonmarked Barons rival kings and princes in power and influence. They have their taxes - the money they collect from the guilds they control, who tax the craftsmen who work within them. Yes, I agree. As I said in my first post, however, that 'tax' money is dependant upon business continuing as usual. If an embargo occurs then that guild money dries up overnight. This means that with each passing day that the embargo continues the barons are losing money in real-time. The rulers of Breland, however, have their wealth invested in other sources rather than raw cash. Sources that are much more difficult to stymie, and much more flexible. While the nobles of Breland might keep limping along, it's more probable that the resulting chaos would be catastrophic. Orien moves practically everything overland. Harvests will rot in their farms. Trade goods will not be sold, people can't get to work. I agree that it would be chaotic for the short term (maybe a week). I think what you are under-estimating is the potential of people to adapt. Merchants who have alot of money invested in trade would find a way to move their goods with or without the help of House Orien or Boranel. After all, House Orien runs a very low-tech (so to speak) industry. It's not a matter of a slight inconvenience. It will probably be more like economic meltdown. Orien isn't a corporation. It isn't even like a monopolistic multinational corporation. It's more powerful than that. It's a Dragonmarked House. I disagree. I do not think economic meltdown would occur. I agree that the Dragonmarked houses are more powerful than any modern day corporation (though some would argue that! :)), but I do not believe they are all powerful or powerful enough to seriously challenge the sovereignty of one of the Five. Could they do serious damage, yes? While they did that damage, though, they would be inflicting damage just as serious upon themselves. Also any damage upon an entity as flexible as a nation-state would be much more easily repaired than comparable damage upon an entity as stream-lined and inflexible as a Dragonmarked house. Imagine, it you will, the utter chaos that would result if all the banks and stock exchanges in the world suddenly stopped doing their business for good. This would be chaotic, but House Orien does not have that type of power. Then include the financial arms of every government in that strike. Money would only have whatever value any yahoo decided. In fact, since no one is printing paper money (and laws prevent anyone else from doing it), it's altogether likely that trade would revert to barter systems. Uh...modern money is based upon the solidity of national governments. Most Western nations (i.e. the First World) have not based money upon real value (i.e. a gold or silver standard) since before and immediatly after/during WWI. It's altogether possible that a more socially advanced people in the future who know of social contracts and constructs that we can't fathom only view banks and financial government controls as conveniences they can do without, but we don't know what they know. I don't understand what you are getting at here, but I do not believe that it applies to the situation of a House Orien embargo. As far as we know, it'll be a complete disaster. I would assume that it would be a disaster, yes, but again I don't think House Orien has anywhere near the kind of power to cause such an economic meltdown. That's how Khorvairians will think of it. They don't know that competition is good. They may not believe that quality products ultimately brings in more customers. They probably don't know the first thing about free market structures and the concepts of capitalism. Maybe, but that has nothing to do with what I am talking about though in and of itself it's a very interesting thought about the way Khorvairan economics work. What I really talking about in terms of public relations is not the economic understanding of the average Brelander, but simply their inherent nationalism. The Brelish are so nationalistic as to have supported their nation in a hundred year war against people they had previously been brothers-in-arms with. Thus I would contend that the same type of people would find it very easy to focus their ire upon an arguably, upper society elite that could be painted as hurting them for no reason. Having a Dragonmarked House cut its services to your nation would be a very terrifying prospect. Obviously :) from my post I disagree with your statement. I think it would be terrifying, but mainly to the Dragonmarked House that did it. Now, if you want to talk about all 12 going into an embargo, well, that is an entirely different matter. So, this does beg the question of what I think the D-marked would do to retaliate against what they might see as noble excess in regards to the Houses. As I have stated, at length, I do not think House Orien would enter into a nationwide embargo. This would only, in my opinion (emphasis!), hurt House Orien. What I think House Orien could survive, easily, would be a very select embargo against the interests of those that oppose them. Why would House Orien stop all ground trade with Breland? Well they never would. The financial disaster would be too vast to contemplate. They could do something, however, much more sinister. House Orien could choose to deny its services to the Breland government, military, and intelligence services. This is, intrinsically, more devastating for the Brelish government. The economy of Breland continues churning ahead relatively oblivious of the very select embargo since the government/military would likely make up a relatively small percentage of the Brelish economy. The government, however, would be panicking. Why? Strategy. If Breland cannot move troops quickly along the lightning rail then they cannot quickly respond to any enemy aggression. Let's say Thrane sees Breland's weakness and decides to bite off a chunk, say around Vathirond. This city is far from the main Brelish cities, and likely, major military bases. Even if there were sizeable forces around Vathirond they would not be able to be reinforced quickly or supplie easily. Thus, House Orien's greatest bargaining chip is not what financial damage it can do the Brelish economy (which also hurts House Orien), but what strategic position it can place the Brelish government in. Above all, in my mind, the Dragonmarked houses do not want economic activity to cease. Thus they would seek to flex their muscles in much more surgical ways. That's how I see it anyway.
Roxlimn 03-27-07, 06:42 PM	DarthMidget: That is precisely what I meant. Orien could continue to do import/export business, but only stymie local Brelish transportation so as to cripple its local economy. Without any option to turn to, it'd be utter chaos. Re: economic meltdown The thing I'm getting at is that you natually think about what occurs in a freemarket economy or some similar capitalist setup where you have protections, legal and by tradition, and where there are understood social contracts that hold things in place. One such contract is that it's okay to start up a business when it's demanded, and another is that you aren't supposed to intentionally cheat your customer (because it's bad for business). These are even only superficial concerns. Thinking "competition" in the modern sense is not nearly as automatic as you think, and it's also not so easy to set up as you think or as easy to understand the social contract. You take it for granted because you live with it everyday. Khorvairians do not. They've lived with Guilds their whole lives, generations - thousands of years. Guilds helped to establish quality control where there was none, and certainly for fair trade practices where there was none. Outside of the Guilds, there is no social contract. In this sense, an independent merchant is almost like an outlaw or a brigand. Think about drugs today. Marijuana contains less toxic substances than cigarettes and is less addicting. This has been proven medically, but its status as an illegal drug means that those who provide it are also providing all kinds of illegal services - a lot of which are far more sinister and dangerous. Morphine suffers under mostly the same restrictions, even though it has well-known medical indications. Anyone who's selling you morphine off the counter is necessarily not a very well-trusted person, and his awareness of his own illegal nature means that he is probably of the type not to respect law in other matters. Independents are something of the same. Their fringe nature and indifference to practices that are regarded as fair and proper by the vast majority of society means that only those who are inclined to fringe activities are likely to indulge in it. It would have something of a stigma to it, if you will. What does this mean? It means that normal people wouldn't get it into their heads to be independent merchants even under extraordinary circumstances, because all their upbringing has taught them that Guilds are good, and independents are "bad." Furthermore, once they've gone into the practice, the fringe nature they've had to accept will label them as borderline individuals, and they will also likely begin to think of themselves as such, and they will begin to shirk many of the quality standards that the Guilds impose on their members. Recall that almost all business in Khorvaire is done by Guild. Trade laws are, in all probability, encoded by Guild, and enforced by Guild. No other control method is necessary. However, once you go outside that Guild, lawlessness follows. Price gouging would be rampant where there's opportunity, goods are likely to be below-standard, and there may even be outright swindling, theft, and brigandage. Would you trust your cargo to such a transport system? Whereas you could load your cargo onto an Orien caravan with no escort and be absolutely ensured that it gets to where it's going, if you're on an independent, he could just make off with it and you'll be none the wiser for weeks. In fact, quite a few thieves could do just this thing. The end result is that most people will endeavor to just bring their goods in themselves rather than entrust them to questionable transporters, particularly when there isn't a House or Guild to keep these independents in line. It would be a disaster. I don't disagree that it might be viewed badly, but competition, however, cloaked in secrecy, would exist even in the most tightly regimented economies. Some of the surplus of goods not being moved by House Orien would, inevitably, find their way to House Lyrander holds. Even if House Lyrander did not set out on this path intentionally it would occur. This multiplication of Lyrander business would simply be an inevitable outcome of an Orien embargo. By and large, the Houses, especially the old ones, don't like to rock the boat. They're okay where they are and have reached mutual understandings. Their scions probably even know each other from school, since House scions attend the same institutions. Lyrandar probably already ships a goodly amount of goods by barge and boat. If Orien's caravans stop moving, the magnitude of the cargo would simply be too staggering to take up. Even if Lyrandar did have the opportunity to do so, there is precedent to expect that it would not. After all, it voluntarily keeps its Airship trade reined in so as not to compete with Orien shipping, and Orien and they are on speaking terms. No. This Embargo would be Orien's business and it would be very rude for Lyrandar to butt in. Tharashk is dealing in mercs from Droaam, because Deneith has no appreciable presence there. Orien removing itself from Breland would create a similar situation in Breland. I am sure Tharashk did not intend to get into the merc business in Droaam, but the economic growth required an outlet. Tharashk businessmen/orcs saw the opportunity to be made, and took it. They weren't trying to 'compete' with House Deneith, but it happened. The same would occur in Breland if Orien undertook an embargo of any great length. There is a difference! Tharashk is a young and irreverent House, and it either probably didn't know what it was doing or didn't care. Even then, it IS drawing a lot of ire from House Deneith and more than a few uneasy glances from the other Houses for this kind of activity. Even Thuranni and Phiarlan don't compete quite so directly. Even prior to Tharashk's presence in the Marshes, the market and the need was there - as were the resources. Tharashk's presence as an organizing and ensuring factor of trade law was necessary to facilitate the business. It would not have happened (and never happened) without them. Similarly, without Orien (or any other house) to organize the transport activity in Breland, it would simply degenerate into a grand mess, if it even got that far. In my previous post, however, I was not dealing with potential resolution of the issue, but what would happen if the issue did in fact occur. I agree that most major economic players in Khorvaire would have a vested interest in making sure such an embargo did not happen. It depends. It seems quite likely that all the Barons are in communication with each other, even if they're not particularly friendly with each other. Councils are held in Korth, after all. The one day embargo of Orien was quite likely to have been a tolerated move, if not tacitly approved. Since it affects all Houses to greater or lesser extent, such a thing would have been advised to the others as a matter of courtesy. How would they retaliate though? It would cost them an immense amount to try to form their own alternate shipping line which could then only compete w/Lyrander in areas not affected by the embargo since Orien shipping goods out of the embargo area would defeat the purpose of the embargo in the first place. Not to mention that a Orien attempt at competition would cost them more money while they were bleeding funds from their embargo against Breland. It would be nothing so foolish. You cannot fight a war on two sides and expect to win, and I think Orien would know that. Rather, it would exact revenge when the timing is right. Expanding, for instance, their teleportation services to include more than the occasional messenger could have dire consequences for Lyrandar, especially if they could get a teleportation circle working. That would be utterly disastrous for seaborne shipping. That Orien hasn't done so already is a clear indication that these Houses are on cooperative terms and coordinate their interests. I would point out that House Deneith, as far as I can tell, does not actually enforce the law. They can cross international borders to apprehend wanted persons, but they cannot act as local police, and definitly not as local magistrates. We really have no information on how a contractual dispute between a D-House and Guild would be dealt with. That such a dispute might occur amidst the backdrop of a national embargo further complicates the situation. The House utterly controls the Guild. It's that simple and needs to be no more complicated. In every instance where there is a dispute, House wins. In fact, Eberron texts almost interchangeably use House and Guild interchangeably, as if one were the other. Of course, that is not the case, but the lasting impression is that the Guild is totally under House control, and that the Guild exists only to exert House control over that particular trade (and at least two instances in Eberron text implies this). The domination of trade by the Houses was done by Guild, and Guilds cannot exist without Guild laws and Galifaran Laws which promote their function and nature. One example of such a series of laws is the ones which Houses use against students who violate their study contracts not to EVER compete with House interests. A related one is these Houses' implied right to impose indentured servitude to those very same students for a set number of years in their own businesses. Clearly, there are entire bodies of law which deal with trade and trade interests, and it seems every one of them favors the Houses and Guilds (as Galifar said when he promised them "special status"). Thus, it seems self-evident that a series of laws also are codified which allows Guilds to control the activities of their members. If their members violate such laws, they can be held liable to the House under "Galifaran Law," and sanctioned according the the traditions of the Guilds and the Houses. Right, and I agree. I don't, however, see that Boranel would have to rescind any laws. The market would take care of itself. There would be economic hardship for Breland, no doubt, but I would counter that the Brelish would work the problem out for themselves in short order. If they knew how to do this and could do so with such impunity, it seems doubtful that the Houses would ever have existed for as long as they did. Certainly, the Houses predate Galifar for a good margin, so whatever economic social contracts had ever been, it would have been tied to the Houses. Merchants who have alot of money invested in trade would find a way to move their goods with or without the help of House Orien or Boranel. After all, House Orien runs a very low-tech (so to speak) industry. Orien controls almost all of the massive number of animals necessary to move these goods. Whatever is left is probably only for home use, private use, or for the farms. There is no way you can get anything to do something that massive, even if you tried, short of seizing Orien assets and prerogatives. Think about it this way. Goods are shipped by train in the US, right? Let's say one company owns it all (and I mean ALL, including subways, trucks, cabs, anything with wheels) and it suddenly decides to go on strike. Where in the blue blazes are you going to find enough trains and trucks to move all those goods? You'd have to seize those trains and trucks if you're going to have a prayer, and even then you'll need to find operators who may or may not turn out to be criminally minded. It'll be utter mayhem. I disagree. I do not think economic meltdown would occur. I agree that the Dragonmarked houses are more powerful than any modern day corporation (though some would argue that! ), but I do not believe they are all powerful or powerful enough to seriously challenge the sovereignty of one of the Five. I think you miss the point. However diverse they are, the Houses are at least on speaking terms. Even Deneith, who has every right to exact vengeance on Tharashk, hasn't done so. The implications of a Second War of the Mark are too horrible to consider. We have frequent and obvious evidences that even when they don't actively cooperate, they at least try not to step on each other's toes. The Thronehold Nations not the same. Every country is on every other country's throat just about, and a hair trigger information could set the Last War going all over again. A weakened Breland with absolutely no access to any kind of sanctioned Guild transportation would be just the thing Thrane needs to grab more land. By the time Breland's economy recovered and set up a brigand transport system, it may already be Thrannish and the point would then be moot. Note that Breland apologized to Orien. Publicly. That's not the kind of thing nations normally do to mere corporations. Orien clearly has the upper hand in this exchange. As far as MAD is concerned, Orien can use the other Nations to destroy Breland, but Breland can't do the same to Orien. Of course, nations conquering each other is a major political shift and not something just one House would be liable to precipitate unilaterally. Uh...modern money is based upon the solidity of national governments. Most Western nations (i.e. the First World) have not based money upon real value (i.e. a gold or silver standard) since before and immediatly after/during WWI. The Central Bank (or whatever your financial governing body is) is on strike! Permanently! Your currency has no extranational value. It's as if your government has ceased to exist. The money would be worthless (or whatever some yahoo who wants to take up the job dictates). I don't understand what you are getting at here, but I do not believe that it applies to the situation of a House Orien embargo. I mean that your concept of how a modern people would react would be totally alien to a Khorvairian. We may not know how to value money without governments, but advanced peoples might. Their money might even be just formalities that can be done away with. So, this does beg the question of what I think the D-marked would do to retaliate against what they might see as noble excess in regards to the Houses. As I have stated, at length, I do not think House Orien would enter into a nationwide embargo. This would only, in my opinion (emphasis!), hurt House Orien. The article clearly implies otherwise. If the embargo would hurt Orien as much as you say it did, then the King would know about it, and he could've called the bluff. Clearly, the Breland government is more afraid of Orien than they are of it, in at least this one instance. Orien demonstrated that it was willing and perfectly capable of going on embargo. I expect the other Houses to have similar prerogatives and capabilities.
Splendide 03-27-07, 09:01 PM	$5 says Tharashk would be getting in on the cargo game within days of Orien's embargo. As a result, Deneith may too, considering how much manpower they have available postwar that is losing them money. Then you have to consider that Orien runs most of its routes more like a franchise than an owner-operated business. If you lose the franchise, all it means is rebranding. This is the livelihood of a whole heap of commoners, and if they work Brelish routes, they'll be leaving the guild quite quickly.
Adhevan 03-27-07, 09:48 PM	$5 says Tharashk would be getting in on the cargo game within days of Orien's embargo. As a result, Deneith may too, considering how much manpower they have available postwar that is losing them money. If Orien stopped the caravans, it would affect Deneith, anyway. Orien contracts with Deneith for caravan guards.
DarthMidget 03-27-07, 10:32 PM	Well, Roxlimn, I just have to say I respectfully disagree with the way you interpret Khorvairan economics, and the manner in which the Dragonmarked houses control the guilds. Also, I might add, there is nothing wrong with that interpretation. It's simply different from my own. I would note, however, that House Orien did not, in the recent Sharn Inquisitive example, put a full embargo in place. They only stopped rail transport, and, from the article, it seems that was limited. Also, while Breland did apologize that doesn't indicate that Breland fears House Orien. It could simply have been that the arrest was an actual mistake. Wires do get crossed from time to time. Anyway, I do not agree that the guilds are so tightly bound to the Dragonmarked houses as to do as they say without regard for their own economic or national interests. Technically speaking the D-marked houses run monopolies and control their interests very strictly. In reality things rarely work out that way. The Dragonmarked Houses, just like any other 'rulers' can't do things that the majority of their people disagree with without facing severe repercussions. I simply do not believe that the majority of the House Orien guilds would go along with a nationwide embargo simply because House Orien wanted them too. Also I disagree with your interpretation of the Khorvairan lack of understanding regarding a free market economy, and ability to adapt. While the Khorvairan economy does not reach the standards of Western Capitalism it is also very different from a centraly controlled economy. Another point I want to address. Earlier in this thread there have been mention of Galifaran law and what may or may not apply to the Dragonmarked houses since Galifar, technically I suppose, no longer exists as a political entity. If this is true, then the Galifaran laws guaranteeing the monopolies of the Dragonmarked houses also no longer exist. So, in that sort of a climate would a House really want to create a scenario which might end in internal revolt?
Nived 03-28-07, 02:37 AM	I think it would be foolish if Orien stopped all service to Breland... the Article said they stopped LIGHTNING RAIL service. That's something that another house or freelancers can't just step in and take over. Think of it this way, its more akin to the Mass Transit workers in New York City threatening to strike. Without the Busses or Subways New York City stops. People might ***** and moan and say they'll find another way to work, but really they need that service, and thus the demands were given into. Even though other ways could be found, even though given enough time those workers would have been fired the insueing economic impact was too much. Similar here, House O needs Breland's Business, sure, but they also know Breland NEEDS the Lightning Rail. It's a game of political Chicken. Was Jarla d’Orien's crime (and I maintain there was a crime, if there wasn't House O would have just sent in a pack of House Sivis lawyers.) serious enough to warrent the standoff. If it was serious enough Breland would have made the charges public and plead to the masses to boycott House O. House O on the otherhand was banking that the crime wasn't big enough, and the threat of stopping the Rails would get the Government to back off. Is smuggling a small amount of (insert illegal thing here) worth ******* off thousands of your citizens? It was political chicken, Breland blinked first.
Roxlimn 03-28-07, 07:48 AM	DarthMidget: You can, of course, interpret your own Eberron however you like. However, even though my interpretation of the Houses is my own, I do have solid bases in the text for how I've interpreted them, plus some few references from Hellcow quotes. It's not me that's deciding that Khorvairian economics and economic culture is so anti-competition. There is clear implication of that, and Hellcow has weighed in on this as well. House control of the Guilds, and Guild control over its members is likewise said to be extremely powerful, backed both by tradition and law. I'm not just making these things out of thin air, and I'm not using modern or ancient analogues unless I have strong reasons from the text to be using them. Also, while Breland did apologize that doesn't indicate that Breland fears House Orien. It could simply have been that the arrest was an actual mistake. Wires do get crossed from time to time. That's doubtful. It's more than just an apology. It's a public apology. From a Brelish General, no less. That's as much a political bow as it is an admission of error. Technically speaking the D-marked houses run monopolies and control their interests very strictly. In reality things rarely work out that way. The Dragonmarked Houses, just like any other 'rulers' can't do things that the majority of their people disagree with without facing severe repercussions. I simply do not believe that the majority of the House Orien guilds would go along with a nationwide embargo simply because House Orien wanted them too. Without strength and force of this magnitude, any statement about the "neutrality" of the Guilds and the Houses is nothing more than the purest farce. The Guilds would very simply and very strongly favor their native nations and then industry and economy become polarized according to nation. This is clearly not so. Brelish swordsmakers working under the Houses are honorbound (by the codes of behavior enforced by the Houses) to provide their services to everyone, regardless of national persuasion. Most of the services and trade is only very loosely tied to the Houses by direct authority, thus the natural course of such strong controls is law and tradition. Since most trade is like this, the only way you could say that the Houses provide "neutral" trade of any significant magnitude to anyone would be that they can force their Guild members to be neutral, regardless of their natural persuasions. We know that House regulation of trade - that Windwright captains and ships are honorbound to provide legal trade services and are protected from attack by their "neutrality" - define the economic landscape of Khorvaire, and is one of the reasons why Khorvaire isn't quite as devastated by the Last War as it should have been. The only way that can be true is if all Guild members share these qualities and protections, and the only way that can be true is if the Houses can impose their nature on these Guild members through powerful methods of control. There is no "technically" here. We don't know the specifics of this control - we only can speculate about it based on the effects we know are true. While the Dragonmarked Houses probably can't force their workers to wage war against other peoples, and their influence over their workers is limited only to economic activities - where such control exists, it's explicit and implicit that such control is very, very strong. While the Khorvairan economy does not reach the standards of Western Capitalism it is also very different from a centraly controlled economy. What do you mean by a "centrally controlled economy," and what gives you the idea that Khorvairian economy is so obviously different from it? Prices are controlled, competition is quashed, quality is controlled, quantity is regulated. Guild members are even held to strict codes of behavior. We know these to be true. Another point I want to address. Earlier in this thread there have been mention of Galifaran law and what may or may not apply to the Dragonmarked houses since Galifar, technically I suppose, no longer exists as a political entity. If this is true, then the Galifaran laws guaranteeing the monopolies of the Dragonmarked houses also no longer exist. So, in that sort of a climate would a House really want to create a scenario which might end in internal revolt? That is also true. One of the reasons Hellcow says that Airship Pirates are so brazen is that Lyrandar no longer has Galifar to protect its monopolistic interests. Same situation exists for the Lhazaar Principalities; although those regions were never really under Galifar control, competition against Lyrandar has increased since the demise of Galifar. While Galifaran Law (and the Code of Galifar) is nominally upheld throughout the Five Nations, every nation, and presumably every House, inteprets this somewhat differently. Note that Lyrandar's dominance of the shipping trade isn't quite as absolute as, say, Kundarak's domination of the banking trade. They probably interpret Guild Law from the Code of Galifar slightly differently, and pursue different agendas that promote differential interpretation of it. The Korth Edicts are an entirely different matter. Though they would also be dependent on Galifar for enforcement, they are not mentioned to be a part of the Code of Galifar, and is probably more of a separate treaty between Galifar and the Houses. The Houses, of course, will look after their own interests, and seek to ignore the Edicts and the Code where it suits them, but at the same time, ask for the Five Nations to enforce Galifar Law where it favors them. It's inherently hypocritical and contradictory, but is that really out of context or surprising for Eberron?
DarthMidget 03-28-07, 09:32 AM	Well, again, I disagree with your interpretation of the Khorvairan economy. Thus I will cite some sources to support my points. The dragonmarked houses of Khorvaire control certain economic aspects of society - Eberron Campaign Setting p.124 This implies that the dragonmarked houses only control certain aspects of an economy. Certainly they do not control all of it or this statement would not have been made. Since all of the economy is not there are elements controlled by others not of the dragonmarked houses. This is why the Khorvairan economy is not like a centrally controlled state economy. The dragonmarked houses transcend the borders of the nations of Khorvaire, operating wherever supply and demand warrants. - Eberron Campaign Setting p.124 Supply and demand exist in Khorvaire as stated in this passage. Thus there are elements of the free market that exist in Khorvaire. If there was not then supply and demand would be irrelevant. Since the ECS states that this is not the case there are significant elements of a free market in play even if those don't deal with price controls on House-specific goods and materials. These include rules concerning neutrality, fair trade and practices, family naming conventions, and a ban on marriages between houses so that the dragonmarks remain pure. - Eberron Campaign Setting p.231 The words fair trade and practices imply that a free market economy, albeit not a non-monopolistic one, exists. If it did not there would be no need to make rules concerning fair trade. House Lyrander's shipping and transportation services rival those of House Orien, and the two often compete over contracts that could be fulfilled over either land and sea. - Eberron Campaign Setting p.235 This is direct support of my contention that during any embargo Lyrander would gobble up as much of the lost Orien trade as possible. Thus my point is directly support by the ECS. The Defenders Guild provides personal protection, including bodyguards... - Eberron Campaign Setting p.232 The Warning Guild offers services related to personal protection. Its members work as bodyguards... - Eberron Campaign Setting p.235 From the above two passing describing guilds in House Deneith and House Medani the conclusion is drawn that, obviously, these houses would be in competetion with one another. More evidence that the houses compete, and thus further evidence of elements of a free market economy. Now Thuranni competes directly with Phiarlan in the areas of espionage, surveillance, and information brokering, as well as in entertainment and artisan endeavors. - Eberron Campaign Setting p.239 More evidence of competition between the 13. This time in direct competition over identical services. Then there is the question of what exactly the houses control. Here's a listing from the ECS: Cannith - Tinkerers & Fabricators Deneith - Defenders & Blademarks Ghallanda - Hostelers Jorasco - Healers Kundarak - Banking & Warding Lyrander - Raincallers & Windwrights Medani - Warning Orien - Couriers & Transportation Phiarlan/Thuranni - Entertainers & Artisans Sivis - Speakers & Notaries Tharashk - Finders Vadalis - Handlers So from the above list there are a great many areas that the houses don't monopolize. There is farming, mining, logging, herding, textiles, insurance, tanning, etc. These are only a few of the unregulated industries which the houses could not control. Thus in these areas there would be a great deal of free market activity. Thus the idea of a free market would not be foreign to the people of Khorvaire. Really, the only difference between Khorvaire and a fully capitalist system is the existence of the Dragonmarked house monopolies. Also, from the sources I have provided it is clear the competition exists in Khorviare, and between the Dragonmarked houses.
Roxlimn 03-28-07, 01:09 PM	DarthMidget: Those passages can be interpreted differently, IF you don't assume a priori that free market economy exists. Hellcow has actually come out and said on the Lyrandar thread that Khorvairain economics doesn't work that way, and we can always ask him again if you want. This implies that the dragonmarked houses only control certain aspects of an economy. Certainly they do not control all of it or this statement would not have been made. Since all of the economy is not there are elements controlled by others not of the dragonmarked houses. This is why the Khorvairan economy is not like a centrally controlled state economy. It's obvious that it's NOT a state economy. It's a Dragonmarked economy. Despite that: "In fact, the dragonmarked houses of Khorvaire dominate the economic life of the continent through their near-absolute control over professional spellcasting." page 89, ECS Thus, their domination of economic life is unquestioned... As to how important this control over professional spellcasting is: "The wealth of Khovaire is built on magic, and the dragonmarked houses are the mortar that holds this magical economy together." page 8, Dragonmarked " - the cornerstones of Eberron's pseudo-magical culture are all effectively OWNED by the dragonmarked houses." If you have any further doubts about how completely the Dragonmarked Houses control economic life on Khorvaire, I can provide several other quotes about how they deal with independents who are at all significant, or quotes that refer to Houses as monopolistic enterprises. Supply and demand exist in Khorvaire as stated in this passage. Thus there are elements of the free market that exist in Khorvaire. If there was not then supply and demand would be irrelevant. Since the ECS states that this is not the case there are significant elements of a free market in play even if those don't deal with price controls on House-specific goods and materials. Supply and demand are economic principles that exist independently of the economic structure. Supply and demand might be drastically altered by monopolistic practices, but they're still there. The presence of a demand for a product, or a means of supplying it - neither of these point to a free market structure. The words fair trade and practices imply that a free market economy, albeit not a non-monopolistic one, exists. If it did not there would be no need to make rules concerning fair trade. "Fair trade" could easily mean quality control, rules to protect consumer interests, and rules to protect Guild interests so it can then insure that merchants do "what is right." Again, you can point to principles of "fair trade practices" even outside the realm of free markets. This is direct support of my contention that during any embargo Lyrander would gobble up as much of the lost Orien trade as possible. Thus my point is directly support by the ECS. Not at all. That passage could be interpreted in any of several possible ways. It doesn't have to be interpreted in the manner that you suggest. It could be a friendly intra-House competition (involving only House to House arrangements between Orien and Lyrandar), or competition only between House Arms, or even they ONLY compete for special "contracts," where most shipping is done differently. Dragonmarked is notably absent any notable animosity between these Houses that you would expect between competing interests, even when it mentions some animosity between Phiarlan and Thuranni, as well as between Lyrandar and Medani. Furthermore, both Orien and Lyrandar hold back their interests even when it could do so at the expense of the other. Orien restricts its large overseas teleportation interests, while Lyrandar restricts its Airship transportation network. Clearly, these Houses have some kind of mutual understanding between them that precludes the kind of incursion you suggest is likely. From the above two passing describing guilds in House Deneith and House Medani the conclusion is drawn that, obviously, these houses would be in competetion with one another. "The Warning Guild provides certification and contract employment for bodyguards... ...those of the Warning Guild are not primarily hired for their muscle or skill with a blade." page 54 Dragonmarked. This clearly demarcates the fields of interest of the Warning Guild as being separate (but complementary) to that of the Defender's Guild. Deneith and Medani often work together on friendly terms. More evidence of competition between the 13. This time in direct competition over identical services. "Phiarlan's Entertainer's and Artisans Guild is the foundation on which the house's reputation is built." page 65, Dragonmarked "The world at large knows the elves of House Phiarlan as entertainers of the highest order. This role is not simply a cover for the secret work of the house, but a tradition that dates back tens of thousands of years. For many members of the hosue, it is the only trade they know." "...but these (intelligence) services are available only to guildmasters, nobles, and others the house recognizes as players in the great game of politics." page 64, Dragonmarked "Unlike House Phiarlan, which operates the Serpentine Table... ...virtually all Thuranni artists are involved to some degree in espinage activities." page 85 Dragonmarked "In particular, the Shadow Network accepts assassination attempts more readily than the Serpentine Table, and this secret..." "Where the Serpentine Table is only one aspect of Phiarlan, its mirror sect among the Thuranni is the true face of the house." page 86, Dragonmarked "As it stands, House Phiarlan prefers to deal in information rather than assassination. It seeks balance, not power for its own sake." page 70 Dragonmarked Clearly, this "directly competes" is still not the same kind of "competition" as one would expect to find in free market economies, and both Houses clearly have distinct interests and goals, beyond the purely monetary. Neither of these houses particularly advertises their presences, and the Serpentine Table only even processes requests it deems worthy. It hardly seems like the crass competition of a free market structure. So from the above list there are a great many areas that the houses don't monopolize. There is farming, mining, logging, herding, textiles, insurance, tanning, etc. These are only a few of the unregulated industries which the houses could not control. Thus in these areas there would be a great deal of free market activity. Thus the idea of a free market would not be foreign to the people of Khorvaire. Farming, mining, logging, herding, textile production, and tanning are all production activities that are easily ascribed to the oversight of nobles. There is no economy there. The peasants produce, the nobles take. The production and sale of all finished products could variously be under Ghallanda, Cannith, or Orien oversight. Insurance falls under the interests of the Banking Guild of House Kundarak, although there's no indication that there is such a trade in Khorvaire. Even when "competition" occurs on Khovaire, it seems clear that it's not the kind of "competition" you suggest.
DarthMidget 03-28-07, 03:37 PM	and we can always ask him again if you want. Ask him whatever you like. Since I'm not privy to what he said in the 'Lyrander thread' I don't know what you are refering to, and thus will not comment on it. It's obvious that it's NOT a state economy. It's a Dragonmarked economy. I agree. I would remind you,however, that you were the one who asserted that Khorvaire's economy was centrally controlled. "In fact, the dragonmarked houses of Khorvaire dominate the economic life of the continent through their near-absolute control over professional spellcasting." Thus, their domination of economic life is unquestioned... Dominate does not imply ironbound control over something. The United States Navy dominates, without dispute, the seas of the world. Would you then say that the US Navy can direct every merchant ship in the sea? Of course not. The Dragonmarked Houses dominate Khorvaire's economy. I never disputed that. What I disputed is their control. To use another analogy - MicroSoft dominates the PC software industry. MicroSoft does not, however, control the industry. Domination does not equate to control. "The wealth of Khovaire is built on magic, and the dragonmarked houses are the mortar that holds this magical economy together." " - the cornerstones of Eberron's pseudo-magical culture are all effectively OWNED by the dragonmarked houses." Again, terms like 'cornerstones' and 'mortar that holds...together' imply control of important aspects of the economy. They do not control the entire economy itself. This is never stated. Also, I would assert that the type of control you imply they hold is impossible for any save a completely totalitarian state and willing people to attain. Even at the height of its power the Soviets never reached the point of centralized control that you are ascribing to Khorvaire. Supply and demand are economic principles that exist independently of the economic structure. Supply and demand might be drastically altered by monopolistic practices, but they're still there. You are wrong. Supply and demand do not exist as principles inside a centrally controlled economy. In such a system they are irrelevant. Supply and demand are a central part of a free market economy. The law of supply states that supply is directly proportional to price. The higher the price of the product, the more the producer will supply. The law of demand states that demand is inversely proportional to price. The higher the price of the product, the less the consumer will demand. Thus, supply and demand both vary with price. If the Dragonmarked houses control the economy as tightly as you maintain then supply and demand would not exist. Since the ECS clearly states that the Dragonmarked houses respond to supply and demand then you are wrong. Khorvaire has elements of a free market economy. Given the lack of reasonable means to institute their control it is virtually unthinkable that anything other than a free market economy could result. The presence of a demand for a product, or a means of supplying it - neither of these point to a free market structure. Yes they do. The integration of supply and demand and the meeting thereof are the very foundation of a free market economy. You cannot have a free market economy without supply and demand. The principles of supply and demand do not exist outside of a free market economy. They certainly would not exist in an Eberron that is as rigidly controlled as you assert that it is. For more information I would refer you to the writings of Cournot and Marshall. "Fair trade" could easily mean quality control, rules to protect consumer interests, and rules to protect Guild interests so it can then insure that merchants do "what is right." Yes it could mean that I suppose, but given that fair trade generally means very different things in the 21st Century and the authors of the ECS live in the 21st Century I seriously doubt they would use the phrase for anything different than actual fair trade. Not at all. That passage could be interpreted in any of several possible ways. It doesn't have to be interpreted in the manner that you suggest. The passage states, clearly, that House Orien and House Lyrander engage in competition over business. It could be a friendly intra-House competition (involving only House to House arrangements between Orien and Lyrandar), or competition only between House Arms, or even they ONLY compete for special "contracts," where most shipping is done differently. It could be I guess, but the passage says nothing about this. It says, quite plainly, that they compete over business. Dragonmarked is notably absent any notable animosity between these Houses that you would expect between competing interests, even when it mentions some animosity between Phiarlan and Thuranni, as well as between Lyrandar and Medani. Lack of evidence is not evidence of anything especially when I have pointed out numerous passages in the ECS which point towards competition between the houses. Furthermore, both Orien and Lyrandar hold back their interests even when it could do so at the expense of the other. Orien restricts its large overseas teleportation interests, while Lyrandar restricts its Airship transportation network. Orien restricts is overseas teleportation network. Why? It's fairly obvious. Where would they go? Sarlona is dominated by the Inspired who do not look kindly upon interlopers. Xen'drik is wild and dangerous. Argonnessen is ruled by dragons who have no relations with humans. Lyrander restricts its Airship transportation network. And for good reason. At this point in the magic-tech development transportation by air is inefficient and grossly expensive. It would make no sense for Lyrander to invest in such an endeavor when Orien could move those goods more cheaply. Thus airship transport makes no sense compared to lightning rail or mundane ship transport. Clearly, these Houses have some kind of mutual understanding between them that precludes the kind of incursion you suggest is likely. That is your opinion from the material presented. I disagree. Clearly, this "directly competes" is still not the same kind of "competition" as one would expect to find in free market economies, and both Houses clearly have distinct interests and goals, beyond the purely monetary. The ECS states that they directly compete. Simply because the do not offer services in exactly the same way does not mean their competition is any less severe. Neither of these houses particularly advertises their presences, and the Serpentine Table only even processes requests it deems worthy. It hardly seems like the crass competition of a free market structure. They don't advertise their presence, because they deal in information and murder. That is not exactly something you tell your neighbors about. Regardless of their secrecy the ECS clearly states they compete against one another directly. Farming, mining, logging, herding, textile production, and tanning are all production activities that are easily ascribed to the oversight of nobles. There is no economy there. The peasants produce, the nobles take. Your statement is incorrect. Regardless of whether or not these industries are dominated by nobility or not the activities are still essentially economic. The activities have real value. The production and sale of all finished products could variously be under Ghallanda, Cannith, or Orien oversight. It could be, but I have seen nowhere stated it is. Insurance falls under the interests of the Banking Guild of House Kundarak, although there's no indication that there is such a trade in Khorvaire. Chinese and Babylonian merchants were practicing a form of insurance against risk as early as the 2nd and 3rd millenia BC. The Greeks and Romans introduced health and life insurance in around 600 AD. Given the very sophisticated social structure of Khorvaire something very much like it would exist. Even when "competition" occurs on Khovaire, it seems clear that it's not the kind of "competition" you suggest. Again I disagree. The ECS, in my opinion, implies that compeition exists between the Dragonmarked houses. Furthermore, the ECS states, nowhere, that the Dragonmarked houses run anything like a centrally run economy. I also find the idea that a group of wealthy merchants who dominate the continental economy and from refrain from competition with one another, well, to be honest, ludicrous. It stretches the boundaries of disbelief. Economic competition is practically ground into the bedrock of human existence. The only faction on Eberron that truly practices a centrally controlled economy are the Inspired. They have accomplished this after centuries of psychological manipulation, a police state the likes of which human society has never forseen, leaders which do not require sleep, a perfect internal communication system via Dal Quor, a unifying faith, and the control of dream itself. Compared to the Inspired the Dragonmarked houses are the picture of market competition. Anyway, its clear that you have your own ideas on how the economy of Khorvaire works. That's fine. I really don't mind. I just disagree with you. We're obviously interpreting things through the lense of our own experience and knowledge and coming to different conclusions. I don't think I'm going to convince you that I am right, and chances are high you won't convince me. ;) So I think at this point we should simply agree to disagree and stop pummeling the dead horse repeatedly about the head and neck. :p
Roxlimn 03-28-07, 05:21 PM	DarthMidget: I find the discussion interesting. If you like, we can beat this dead horse until it's just a red splotch on the ground, and no one's going to stop us. I think that the central objection you have is this: I also find the idea that a group of wealthy merchants who dominate the continental economy and from refrain from competition with one another, well, to be honest, ludicrous. It stretches the boundaries of disbelief. Economic competition is practically ground into the bedrock of human existence. It natural for you to think this way because you've grown up in a free market society where "competition is good" has basically been drilled into your skull for the duration of your existence. You cannot for the life of you, imagine a situation where merchants will willingly refrain from competition. Know that American free market only exists as it does because there are laws that keep it so. Left to itself, economic activity naturally concentrates itself along geographical, political, and population lines - much like political power, actually. Competition naturally gives way to cooperation - just as war naturally gives way to peace. When entire regions are under your control already, you think hard before you risk war. I live in the Philippines, a nation where oligarchs and trader families hold a great deal of power. We don't have all that many laws against monopolies and cartels, and what laws there are are irregularly enforced. Yes, merchants who are already powerful and have common ground will refrain from competition, if it means peace and more profit for everyone concerned. You can raise prices higher on the Lightning Rail if Lyrandar isn't seriously pushing against you. And *** for tat. Lyrandar can charge higher for sea transport if you'll refrain from barging in on it. Whereas you see noncompetition as unnatural, in the absence of law and government interference, I see it inevitable. Oligarchies are founded upon this very tendency - that of very large merchant houses not to want to compete, but solidify their holdings through alliances with other powerful merchant houses. This kind of phenomenon is all too likely to have happened to the Dragonmarked Houses because they had plenty of common ground to discuss things on in the wake of the War of the Mark. Their resources were most likely pooled very closely during the War, and they probably functioned with as little redundancy as was advisable. After such a War, none of them wants a repeat. They don't want for it to ever come to that ever again. They have clear lines of communication. They establish common practices and "fair trade" and what have you. Being keen on protecting their mutual interests and current holdings, having common ground, and seeing firsthand what each can do best, don't you think they would have established rules of engagement and how to settle trade wars without having to let the consumer decide their fates? The establishment of the Twelve and the Houses' polarization against the political powers of the Kingdoms and later on Galifar would probably do much to encourage even more cooperation - they have a common "enemy." Once you let go of the notion that competition is natural, good for merchants, and inevitable, I think it will become all too obvious. The Dragonmarked Houses dominate Khorvaire's economy. I never disputed that. What I disputed is their control. To use another analogy - MicroSoft dominates the PC software industry. MicroSoft does not, however, control the industry. Domination does not equate to control. Nope. Control does. The Guilds DO control their members, and the Houses DO control the Guilds. Also, I would assert that the type of control you imply they hold is impossible for any save a completely totalitarian state and willing people to attain. Even at the height of its power the Soviets never reached the point of centralized control that you are ascribing to Khorvaire. An Oligarchy can easily attain such levels of control. You are wrong. Supply and demand do not exist as principles inside a centrally controlled economy. In such a system they are irrelevant. They are irrelevant to much economic activity, but that doesn't mean that they do not exist. That is why there is such a thing as a secondary market and even tertiary market structures. Since the ECS clearly states that the Dragonmarked houses respond to supply and demand then you are wrong. Read your own quote. It doesn't say that the Houses respond to supply and demand. It says that they operate where these things exist. Not the same thing. Yes they do. The integration of supply and demand and the meeting thereof are the very foundation of a free market economy. You cannot have a free market economy without supply and demand. The principles of supply and demand do not exist outside of a free market economy. All thing considered, I doubt very much that Keith Baker is all that educated about advanced economics (though he could be), and it seems unlikely that he used those terms in precisely the terminology you do. Free markets do not exist everywhere, and even when they do not, supply and demand still exist, even when free market theories about them do not hold true. Yes it could mean that I suppose, but given that fair trade generally means very different things in the 21st Century and the authors of the ECS live in the 21st Century I seriously doubt they would use the phrase for anything different than actual fair trade. Given that the writer is a game designer and not an economist, I doubt that he meant the phrase in anything but the most general of terms. The passage states, clearly, that House Orien and House Lyrander engage in competition over business. It could be I guess, but the passage says nothing about this. It says, quite plainly, that they compete over business. The passage ONLY states that they compete over contracts. Not the same thing. Lack of evidence is not evidence of anything especially when I have pointed out numerous passages in the ECS which point towards competition between the houses. It's merely supportive of other trends I noticed elsewhere, not a standalone argument. Orien restricts is overseas teleportation network. Why? It's fairly obvious. Where would they go? Sarlona is dominated by the Inspired who do not look kindly upon interlopers. Xen'drik is wild and dangerous. Argonnessen is ruled by dragons who have no relations with humans. I meant "overseas" not "intercontinental." To a Brelish, Karrnath is "overseas" since you can't get to it without traveling over water. Orien scrupulously doesn't use teleportation services to mess with sea shipping, even when it's clear that it can. Lyrander restricts its Airship transportation network. And for good reason. At this point in the magic-tech development transportation by air is inefficient and grossly expensive. It would make no sense for Lyrander to invest in such an endeavor when Orien could move those goods more cheaply. Thus airship transport makes no sense compared to lightning rail or mundane ship transport. Being a Lyrandar enthusiast, I've actually gone through the trouble of calculating cost and capital and investments and such, even going so far as to estimate the costs of mooring towers and such, even though you don't really need those for cargo services. The thing about Airship travel is that once you make the Airship, it's permanent and requires neither maintainance nor fuel. It's a magical item, after all. The only input you'll really need is manpower. Given its speed, flexibility and ease of transport, it's actually cheaper for Lyrandar to transport goods by Air than it is for Orien to move it by Rail. It is by no means inefficient nor grossly expensive. The initial capital is huge, but once you're done with that (and the ROI is fairly fast given the Explorer's Handbook rates), it's all gravy. Given such a huge incentive, why is Lyrandar pricing their Airship rates so prohibitively? It costs them nothing to maintain. The only rationale that's reasonable is that they're voluntarily restricting themselves to a niche market in order to avoid a cataclysmic trade war with Orien. It's a tiny bit like Microsoft pricing Zune higher than is really advisable. It's a message from one monopoly to another: "We're playing nice." They don't advertise their presence, because they deal in information and murder. That is not exactly something you tell your neighbors about. Regardless of their secrecy the ECS clearly states they compete against one another directly. And Dragonmarked expounds on how that competition is carried out, which is nothing like a free market setting. Your statement is incorrect. Regardless of whether or not these industries are dominated by nobility or not the activities are still essentially economic. The activities have real value. My mistake. I would instead say that these ventures are tightly controlled by the prerogatives nobles naturally take for themselves in a feudal environment. It could be, but I have seen nowhere stated it is. "(Kundarak) also works closely with the other guilds... ...to ensure fair standardization and stable pricing on good and services." Chinese and Babylonian merchants were practicing a form of insurance against risk as early as the 2nd and 3rd millenia BC. The Greeks and Romans introduced health and life insurance in around 600 AD. Given the very sophisticated social structure of Khorvaire something very much like it would exist. Arguably, the Guilds and the Houses ARE insurance institutions in and of themselves.
DarthMidget 03-28-07, 06:47 PM	It natural for you to think this way because you've grown up in a free market society where "competition is good" has basically been drilled into your skull for the duration of your existence. You cannot for the life of you, imagine a situation where merchants will willingly refrain from competition. Well that's probably true. I do believe competition between various interests is inevitable and natural. I would contend that it is impossible for people not to compete with one another even if that competition is invisible and non-intentional. Let me explain. For the sake of argument let us say that you are right in that Orien and Lyrander do not intentionally compete with one another. They purposefully demarcate careful lines of authority to avoid conflict. This, however, does not mean that they do not offer the other an inherent source of competition. Orien and Lyrander offer the same basic type of service: transportation. There are some markets that Orien cannot reach, and there are some markets that Lyrander cannot reach. There are, however, many markets that both can and do reach. The individual person or organization has a choice when it comes to transporation that both Houses service. The rates, capacity, travel time, etc etc that Orien and Lyrander offer to the market are a form of competition. That competition may be unintentional, benign, and ignored, but it is competition nonetheless. Even if members of Orien and Lyrander insist they are not competitors so long as there is a finite amount of business they will compete even if they don't admit it. Competition naturally gives way to cooperation - just as war naturally gives way to peace. When entire regions are under your control already, you think hard before you risk war. I see your point, but I don't fully agree. War naturally gives way to peace, because war is not a sustainable activity. Peace, however, also naturally gives way to war, and, one could argue that cooperation naturally gives way to competition. History is rife with examples of nations, organizations, and people who cooperated to some end, and once that end was attained they became fierce competitors. Yes, merchants who are already powerful and have common ground will refrain from competition, if it means peace and more profit for everyone concerned. You can raise prices higher on the Lightning Rail if Lyrandar isn't seriously pushing against you. And *** for tat. Lyrandar can charge higher for sea transport if you'll refrain from barging in on it. Right. I don't disagree. I think that is the way the houses have run business, and would like to continue running business. What I was talking about originally was if House Orien placed an embargo on Breland. The amount of potential business that would then spring into being for House Lyrander would be incomprehensible. I think the assumption that Lyrander would restrain itself from gobbling that business up based on previously advantageous business arrangements w/House Orien is incorrect. Whereas you see noncompetition as unnatural, in the absence of law and government interference, I see it inevitable. I hold the opposite view. After all, it is Galifaran law that ensures continued Dragonmarked economic dominance. Oligarchies are founded upon this very tendency - that of very large merchant houses not to want to compete, but solidify their holdings through alliances with other powerful merchant houses. This kind of phenomenon is all too likely to have happened to the Dragonmarked Houses because they had plenty of common ground to discuss things on in the wake of the War of the Mark. Their resources were most likely pooled very closely during the War, and they probably functioned with as little redundancy as was advisable. After such a War, none of them wants a repeat. They don't want for it to ever come to that ever again. They have clear lines of communication. They establish common practices and "fair trade" and what have you. Being keen on protecting their mutual interests and current holdings, having common ground, and seeing firsthand what each can do best, don't you think they would have established rules of engagement and how to settle trade wars without having to let the consumer decide their fates? The establishment of the Twelve and the Houses' polarization against the political powers of the Kingdoms and later on Galifar would probably do much to encourage even more cooperation - they have a common "enemy." Once you let go of the notion that competition is natural, good for merchants, and inevitable, I think it will become all too obvious. You could make the very same argument for the kingdom of Galifar. The Five Nations had a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. For centuries they did not aggressively compete with one another, and followed very clear laws which maintained stability. This was to the benefit of all. Inevitably, that situation ended. Now the situation is one of mutual cooperation (i.e. not fighting) for mutual benefit. Also I believe that human competition is natural. I also consider human cooperation to be natural. History has as many examples of competition as cooperation. An Oligarchy can easily attain such levels of control. How? Khorvaire does not possess the technology to sufficiently organize resources, production, and distribution approaching anything like modern or even mid 19th century levels. Also, systems of control made up of multiple different yet cooperating parts (i.e. Oligarchies) are inherently less efficient than a single governing power (i.e. tyranny or dictatorship). If the nation-states of our real world failed to create efficient economies based on tight control with much more advanced technology then how would the Dragonmarked houses succeed? One of the primary constraints of control of any kind is power projection. Only in very recent years are governments approaching anything like a technological level that will allow true centralized control, and even that has proved insufficient in a case like China to allow for any sort of real economic efficiency. All thing considered, I doubt very much that Keith Baker is all that educated about advanced economics (though he could be), and it seems unlikely that he used those terms in precisely the terminology you do. Given that the writer is a game designer and not an economist, I doubt that he meant the phrase in anything but the most general of terms. Well that maybe true, but still, don't those quotes seem to imply market competition of, at the very least, a basic sort? The passage ONLY states that they compete over contracts. Not the same thing. I would ask that you clarify this position. What do you think the difference is? To me competing over contracts and competing over business is the same thing. I meant "overseas" not "intercontinental." To a Brelish, Karrnath is "overseas" since you can't get to it without traveling over water. Well, this is true now, but it wasn't about five years ago. Did Orien restrict their teleportation to Karrnath when Karrnath would have been reachable via land through Cyre? The only rationale that's reasonable is that they're voluntarily restricting themselves to a niche market in order to avoid a cataclysmic trade war with Orien. But there is also the fact that airships are relatively fragile things. With such a huge up front investment I am sure the people with their money in the project want them to maximize profits. Thus you could interpret Lyrander's pricing strategy as one of: As much as the market can bear. To me that would be a reasonable rationale. And Dragonmarked expounds on how that competition is carried out, which is nothing like a free market setting. Well I don't have Dragonmarked, but if they are not competing for customers then how exactly are they competing? "(Kundarak) also works closely with the other guilds... ...to ensure fair standardization and stable pricing on good and services." While this statement maybe true it really has nothing to do with my assertion that we have no evidence to lead us to believe that Ghallanda, Cannith, and Orien oversee production and sale of all finished goods. My interpretation of the quote is that Kundarak works w/the other houses to ensure fair standardization and pricing on goods and services which the Houses provide to their customers. To me the statement about Kundarak does not implicate Orien, Cannith, or Ghallanda control of industries and areas not expressly detailed to them.
JustX 03-28-07, 08:11 PM	Honestly, I think everyone is looking a little too deeply into this. First off, if marked could own land or do own land, then the nature of Stormhaven wouldn't have ever been an issue. 2) Cannith violating the treaty of thrones isn't something of common knnowledge and if they truely were immune to the law, would they have to hide what they are doing in Sharn? 3) Since we are talking fuedal system, the marked would lay somewhere between gentry and noble. Noble by definition were people and families set up to govern a patch of land and gentry were merchants that achieved a level of weath that made them in the league of the nobles. 4) I've poured over my books and there is nothing in them to say that marked are immune to laws. If point of fact, if marked did constently act as if they were above the law, they would distance themselves from the commoners that they serve. 5) If you extraolate the information provided in Sharn and apply it across the world, then those that develop the mark would become the equivelent of nobles in standing, rank, and the adaptation of the Lord or Lady title. Those without marks tend to fill the same role as gentry did, but this status wouldn't give them diplomatic immunity from the laws. I could go on, but the simple question is: Where does it say that the marked are above the law. Something that important wouldn't be left to players splicing together every source book to come to that conclusion. Something that important and world altering would have been spelled out somewere. Else, why would they constantly point out that Stormhaven is actually owned by a house. Even Dreadhold isn't owned by a house. It is maintained and I doubt that it would ever be ripped from their grasp, but in every legal sense of the word, they don't own Dreadhold and are just the caretakers.
DarthMidget 03-28-07, 08:57 PM	Well I would definitly not describe the Dragonmarked as above the law in a legalistic sense. I'm certain they could bribe their way through the legal system, but that's hardly the same thing. I would say the Dragonmarked are dealt with under the law in the same way that the nobility and the clergy are.
Roxlimn 03-29-07, 12:52 AM	I thank you both for your thoughtful interests and polite discussion. I hope that you don't take anything I post in here as a personal attack. It's not to say that I'll post borderline offensive content on purpose, but I have offended people unknowingly in the past and I hope you understand. JustX: I'll respond to you first because you have more direct and easy to answer posts. 1. Are Dragonmarked above the law? No. Not even nobles are above the law. However, nobles do have prerogatives that they are granted that allows them to use the law to their advantage, and their social influence and status allows them to "violate" law if the plaintiff isn't of enough stature or influence to be of any note. A lowborn commoner or goblin would probably have little to no recourse against a noble, even if the noble is technically trampling his "rights" under the Code of Galifar. Since the ECS equates nobles and the Dragonmarked, it seems to me that they enjoy equal levels of legal prerogatives and protections, even if these prerogatives may not be exactly the same. 2. Are Dragonmarked gentry? In a manner of speaking. Gentry usually use their vast wealth to leverage even more advantages in the political and social arena. Dragonmarked start off with advantages economically, and they predate Galifar so it's also likely that their social prestige and political influence is beyond question, even if they aren't permitted to own land or hold office. Bear in mind that the people of Khorvaire probably think that these Dragonmarked are the best thing since sliced bread. Prior to the Guild system of the Dragonmarked, no economic controls of any kind can be shown to have existed. As with normal autocratic societies, the nobles probably taxed and abused their serfs and merchants as far as they could, and what merchants there were had no controls on their action outside feudal powers. Dragonmarked activity changed all that. 3. Are Dragonmarked aloof and distanced from the commoners they cater to? Absolutely. Dragonmarked cater to all services and goods across the nations. Since most of the wealth is in the hands of the middle and upper classes, they probably care most about servicing those people. The House Scion character archtype clearly is a pampered soul completely divorced from sympathy to the lower classes. 4. Are Dragonmarked the equivalent of nobles? Essentially so. Members of Dragonmarked Houses are upper to middle class in terms of equivalency, and that relates well to nobility (since not even all nobles are upper class). Dragonmarked Barons and their extended families are even comparable to kings in power and influence. DarthMidget: Orien and Lyrander offer the same basic type of service: transportation. There are some markets that Orien cannot reach, and there are some markets that Lyrander cannot reach. There are, however, many markets that both can and do reach. The individual person or organization has a choice when it comes to transporation that both Houses service. The rates, capacity, travel time, etc etc that Orien and Lyrander offer to the market are a form of competition. That competition may be unintentional, benign, and ignored, but it is competition nonetheless. Even if members of Orien and Lyrander insist they are not competitors so long as there is a finite amount of business they will compete even if they don't admit it. There is, of course, bound to be some spillover from services one House does to another, whether or not they seek competition. I think this is what is meant when the ECS says "competition." This is no different from the kind of "competition" Lyrandar's House Arms ships have with each other, or between House Arms and guild members, regardless of how much the Guilds try to stamp out competitive contests. I see your point, but I don't fully agree. War naturally gives way to peace, because war is not a sustainable activity. Peace, however, also naturally gives way to war, and, one could argue that cooperation naturally gives way to competition. History is rife with examples of nations, organizations, and people who cooperated to some end, and once that end was attained they became fierce competitors. That's true, but the Houses are in a fluid state. They're separate, but they're not. The extensive cooperative ventures the Houses have with each other points to a general close relationship between the Houses, and the Twelve is an entity that represents latent unity with the Houses reminiscent of the War of the Mark. While they may "compete" with each other, I believe that much of this is unintentional, or settled at the highest levels. It makes no sense to lose money either of you could have made, if you could just sit together in Korth and settle your differences amicably. Then there are the horrors of the War of the Mark to remind everyone just what happens when 'Marks put their resources earnestly into the services of war. While it's uncertain that the Houses will be as united in the future to the extent that they are now (and that is less than what has been), for the time being, I think that they are generally content to let each be master of his own demesne. The amount of potential business that would then spring into being for House Lyrander would be incomprehensible. I think the assumption that Lyrander would restrain itself from gobbling that business up based on previously advantageous business arrangements w/House Orien is incorrect. I disagree. I think that Lyrandar and Orien act very much like a transportation cartel, and cartel members don't take up slack when their partners flex power. In fact, they're all too likely to join in! This ensures that you cannot be played against each other by a third party, to the detriment of both. In the short term, Lyrandar's taking up all that business would be good for it, but the development of bad blood and generation of competitive contests would ultimately be to the undoing of both. They've both be around long enough to know this. You could make the very same argument for the kingdom of Galifar. The Five Nations had a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. For centuries they did not aggressively compete with one another, and followed very clear laws which maintained stability. This was to the benefit of all. Inevitably, that situation ended. Now the situation is one of mutual cooperation (i.e. not fighting) for mutual benefit. That situation is political. Political situations, because they benefit from war, are inherently prone to conflict. Economic situations are less of that nature because any war, even a trade war, does little that a more amicable settlement would not do better. That's why people merge companies and buy companies out, rather than drive them into declaring bankuptcy. It's easier to do one, and it ultimately would have yielded much the same thing. How? Khorvaire does not possess the technology to sufficiently organize resources, production, and distribution approaching anything like modern or even mid 19th century levels. Magic. In many ways, Khorvairian capabilities for control far exceed modern standards. Well that maybe true, but still, don't those quotes seem to imply market competition of, at the very least, a basic sort? Not at all. To a pre-Guild merchant "fair trade" meant protection from nobles who would "buy" goods only to refuse payment later on, or else pay only very nominal sums. To a pre-Guild buyer, "fair trade" could be as basic as getting what you paid for. No swindlers. These are not inconsiderable benefits. I would ask that you clarify this position. What do you think the difference is? To me competing over contracts and competing over business is the same thing. Transportation services may not usually be sold in the form of contracts. It could be on a service by service basis, or various other kinds of agreements and compensations. Well, this is true now, but it wasn't about five years ago. Did Orien restrict their teleportation to Karrnath when Karrnath would have been reachable via land through Cyre? Honestly? Yes. If you examine the Lightning Rail coaches closely, you'll notice that each of them is the size of a boat. And they move faster. Modern shipping is done by boat for a variety of reasons, but the biggest of them all is efficiency - it's cheaper to send things by boat because it'll use way less fuel than any other method. Lightning Rail coaches don't use fuel. They're permanent magical items. We know they're used to transport goods in bulk. Their sizes and capacities are at least 8-10 times that of real world train coaches. They're faster. They have less distance to travel. Rates are cheaper. By all measures, Lyrandar shouldn't even exist anymore after the creation of the Lightning Rails. At the very least, it would have been reduced to a borderline smallish house with mainly overseas shipping interests (and as you said, there has never been a whole lot of that). If transporting by ship makes sense, it'll have to be because Orien purposefully limited its business so that it didn't kill most seagoing shipping outright. But there is also the fact that airships are relatively fragile things. With such a huge up front investment I am sure the people with their money in the project want them to maximize profits. Thus you could interpret Lyrander's pricing strategy as one of: As much as the market can bear. To me that would be a reasonable rationale. Pricing is only one aspect of it. Airships are far too few to compete with Orien traffic, and there's no real reason why it should be. By all accounts, Lyrandar should be changing their shipping to this new and fantastic means of transportation. Airships are way more sturdy than actual seagoing ships, and they face fewer dangers. Well I don't have Dragonmarked, but if they are not competing for customers then how exactly are they competing? By my reading of Dragonmarked, they appear to be competing for influence. Information is, at its heart, a political game, and the most valuable thing you can gain from it is not money, but power. Thuranni is seeking to fulfill what it thinks is its manifest destiny, whereas Phiarlan seeks balance in world politics. These goals are usually set against each other. My interpretation of the quote is that Kundarak works w/the other houses to ensure fair standardization and pricing on goods and services which the Houses provide to their customers. To me the statement about Kundarak does not implicate Orien, Cannith, or Ghallanda control of industries and areas not expressly detailed to them. The quote does not qualify that these goods and services are limited only to those the Houses provide directly to their customers. In fact, Guild policy of enforcing quality and price controls to its members (all significant business in the field of interest) implies that "goods and services" means "all goods and services."
Evilmonster 04-05-07, 04:56 PM	Just my take on it. The Houses' people are under the governing law of whatever nation they're in at the time. But they have a BUNCH of pull with those governments. While a high up in a house isn't given a free pass on killing someone legaly, the house can't get all but the most public and serious offences swept under the rug. And any nation can freely restrict of abolish the houses busines with in their borders, however, any nation that dosn't have full cooperation with one house is suddanly at a big disadvantage aginst the other nations. So as long as every nation is waiting for the war to kick up again the situation would have to be realy extreame for any nation to risk making even a single house angry. On a simular note, the houses can't afford to laet the 5 (4) nations think that they pose a threat to the countries in anyway, because they have all this power only so long as the nations cooperate with them. So it's a ballancing act all the way around.