Need help figuring out "The Trust" [Archive] - Wizards Community

Need help figuring out "The Trust" [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
The_Gimp
08-25-07, 11:44 AM So has probably many if not all of you know about "The Trust" gnomish agency, way of life. I got trouble figuring it out and one of my players wanted to be part of it and I'd like to make it a center-point for the story to revolve around. Any place I could find more information on that aside the little bit in the ECS? Thanks guys!
Alex_
08-25-07, 12:11 PM More information the Trust is provided in Player's Guide to Eberron (page 68). There's also some posts on the boards by Hellcow about how they generally operate, but I can't seem to find them. They really do reveal a lot, like how the Trust prefers non-violent methods to solving problems, and only kills when it feels it has no other choice, and that any situation which came to this constitutes a failure on their part. If someone runs around stealing things, they'd do something like just steal it back- letting the person know they're being watched and that the Trust is omniscient/omnipotent rather than a more direct punishment.
The Dreaming Duck
08-25-07, 02:36 PM OP: Check out the Zilargo Dragonshards:
Part One (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041129a)
Part Two (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041206a)

They really do reveal a lot, like how the Trust prefers non-violent methods to solving problems, and only kills when it feels it has no other choice, and that any situation which came to this constitutes a failure on their part. If someone runs around stealing things, they'd do something like just steal it back- letting the person know they're being watched and that the Trust is omniscient/omnipotent rather than a more direct punishment.
This seems to contradict the PGtE description, which says "Agents of the Trust hold the full power of law in Zilargo, and their methods are ruthless: A would-be thief might be poisoned in a tavern even while planning a robbery. The Trust... decided that the moral concerns about such practices are offset by the societal benefit they produce." The Dragonshards even start off with a group of adventurers being assassinated by the Trust.

I'm not arguing that they'd use alternatives to killing if they solved the problem, but the "let the guy steal and then steal back" seems to be at odds with the "kill him pre-emptively before he has the opportunity to steal." My view of Zilargo is that they want you to be so frightened of the consequences that you won't even THINK about committing a crime, because for all you know everyone around you could be working for the Trust, and one wrong word could get you killed. If it's "One wrong word could get them playing jolly little games with you" - well, it doesn't seem quite as sinister.
Alex_
08-25-07, 05:40 PM OP: Check out the Zilargo Dragonshards:
Part One (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041129a)
Part Two (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041206a)

This seems to contradict the PGtE description, which says "Agents of the Trust hold the full power of law in Zilargo, and their methods are ruthless: A would-be thief might be poisoned in a tavern even while planning a robbery. The Trust... decided that the moral concerns about such practices are offset by the societal benefit they produce."

The PgTF entry wasn't written by Kieth, so it's understandable that there can or would be some conflict. Here's my attempt at resolution.

The PGtF uses the word might, suggesting that it's a possible course of action, and example of the extremes they would go to to accomplish a goal. That doesn't mean it's the first, or the most desirable one, but if they feel that's what they have to do, they'll do it. Also, not all, or even most poisons in D&D kill. A few merely knock them out for a time, of the rest that deal ability score damage, only the kinds that can reduce you to 0 Constitution will outright kill you.

Also, the nature of the robbery or the plan was unknown, and could have influenced the the choice. If the robber was planning on stealing something, but in a way that nobody was hurt or that wouldn't really disrupt Zil society, then non lethal options could be used. If the plan included killing people and stealing their identities, and dispatching guards, it would have warranted more serious methods.

So maybe a few drops of Oil of Taggit were slipped into his drink, which would only knock him out, but when he awakens, the plans he has been writing up are gone (a clear sign his actions have not gone unnoticed). Maybe it means Purple Worm or Giant Wasp venom, which would leave him severely weakened or possibly paralyzed for several weeks, and unable to hatch his scheme (or allow the Trust to shore up more countermeasures), but ultimately still alive. Or perhaps they did mean something like Black Lotus Extract, that would have just outright killed him minutes after drinking it (although a corpse in a crowded tavern can be disruptive in an of itself).

Or maybe they choose not to poison him at all, and do something else to foil his plot or keep it from ultimately negatively impacting Zilgaro and its people. Afterall, poisoning him is something they might do, not something they always or prefer to do.

The Dragonshards even start off with a group of adventurers being assassinated by the Trust.

These were violent and obviously dangerous individuals who had already attacked and killed a Preceptor (apparently a person of high stature) and beaten someone else to get information out them.

People like this would have been imprisoned and more likely made candidates for the death penalty, no matter what nation they were in. This doesn't mean that any country who would kill these people would kill a burglar or thief.

The fact that they followed them all the way to Xen'drik, and didn't bother killing them sooner also seems to suggest they didn't want to cause trouble in Zilgaro.

I'm not arguing that they'd use alternatives to killing if they solved the problem, but the "let the guy steal and then steal back" seems to be at odds with the "kill him pre-emptively before he has the opportunity to steal."

No they wouldn't have just let you steal it, just like they didn't just let the above adventurers kill one person and beat another. They are not omniscient. When something happens that they didn't forsee, they take steps to restore order and normality.

In the case of someone who steals a painting, death is pretty extreme. However, if you steal the picture back, and when the culprit wakes up, he finds that what he stole is right back where it originally was, he should get the message that trying to steal anything around this place is a fool's errand. He'd probably also realize that this is just a warning, since if they could have slipped in and stolen the painting from him, they also could have killed them easily. Furthermore, it could be construed that the Trust just let him steal the picture, and was planning on letting his waste time, money, resources, and effort doing it. This would help make the Trust seem more omnipotent than it really is.

My view of Zilargo is that they want you to be so frightened of the consequences that you won't even THINK about committing a crime, because for all you know everyone around you could be working for the Trust, and one wrong word could get you killed. If it's "One wrong word could get them playing jolly little games with you" - well, it doesn't seem quite as sinister.

I think the views in the book and presented by Hellcow are less extreme than that. It's not that everyone in Zilgaro is afraid of thinking about or talking about committing a crime because they know death or horrible consequences will happen. They don't do it because they figure, "What's the point? You're going to get caught and all of your effort will be for nothing, if you're lucky. Justice will prevail." The average citizen doesn't fear for their life. They know they're not plotting anything worthy of a death penalty.

That's the perception I try to give people in my Eberron campaign.

In reality (or how I actually do run the Trust), the they aren't that omniscient and omnipotent. They do know more about what's going on than most law enforcement, and are sneaky, but not so much that the PCs would all be killed if they don't plan out a petty crime 100% perfectly. Even if they succeed, it it's not guaranteed the Trust will kill them. However, it is guaranteed the Trust will come after them and try to enforce some kind of justice or set things "right".

Sort of like how the Agents in the Matrix, the Law Enforcement in Minority Report, or the Government/Agent in Serenity were powerful, but not so much that challenging them isn't even an option for the heroes of the story, and when they are captured/cornered/etc, they aren't necessarily killed. In Eberron, the PCs are the heroes of the story. Them keeping the heroes from accomplishing their goals before they even set out wasn't where the fun was. The fun was in the heroes running from and conflicting with these forces that seemed ominscient/omnipresent, but could still be overcome by a heroic individual.
Ryoden_Anariavas
08-27-07, 03:16 PM Check out what KB posted in this thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=911695)
Yakman
09-04-07, 03:47 PM the Trust is far from ominpresent or omniscent, imv. it's made up of people, and people just aren't everywhere. it keeps the gnomes honest, and does what it can to keep the baddies out of Zilargo, but it's far from the Agents in the Matrix.
eehamburg
09-04-07, 04:28 PM It may not be omni-everything ... but it is pretty close. After reading all of the back information from the dragonshards and then the recent information that Keith sprawled about, they are a secret police with no equal. Far worse than the KGB, Gestapo, or any other modern real life incarnation. The Trust is far more insidious and clandestine than any of them and they have provided me with some much-needed inspiration.
Hellcow
09-04-07, 04:40 PM it's made up of people, and people just aren't everywhere.
Though the collary is that people are everywhere the PCs are, given that the PCs are people. The point of the Trust is that in Zilargo, anyone could be an agent of the Trust (though the majority are listeners, not assassins or anything like that). They don't wear uniforms. You can't rule out people from certain religions, walks of life, or even based on race; I'm sure they've incorporated a few expats and changelings into the system. Barmaid, beggar, soldier, thief - any of them could be eyes of the Trust. It's more likely that they AREN'T, yes - but you don't know, and that's what keeps people honest.

In the Matrix, anyone can suddenly morph into an agent. You're right, the Trust doesn't literally have that sort of power. But at times it may seem that they do - because there's no easy way to predict when the butler or blacksmith may hit you with hold person or a death attack.

The power of the Trust is in part an illusion, but the illusion works because it's supported by a frighteningly efficient truth. Can you even be sure about the other members of your own party? Perhaps it is unlikely that they've served the Trust all along... but are you certain the halfling hasn't been replaced by a disguised Trust assassin in the past 24 hours? After all, he did go off alone to buy that magic dagger. If you REALLY want to make the Trust scary - and it ties into your planned adventure to have the party run afoul of the Trust, meaning they have a reason to keep them alive - I'd do something like this. Do the math; make sure the person who goes off alone can be captured. Make sure the replacement can duplicate his abilities. But at the right moment, reveal the switch - either using the missing PC as ransom, or when the "PC" betrays/poisons/steals spellbooks/leads them into trap/whatever. Work it out with the PC beforehand if he's game; surprise him as well if he's not (He thinks he's got an ironclad tip - well, actually he never had that tip, that was the Trust guy lying to the PC. You'll need to roll some Bluffs, Spots, and Sense Motives behind the screen, but there you are). The Trust doesn't fight fair. PCs are the heroes, and all that - which means the Trust will fight even dirtier to deal with them.
Yakman
09-08-07, 01:01 AM But at the same time, it's possible to adventure in Zilargo and not run into or have to deal with the Trust at all, if you so choose, and not contradict canon or your points above.
Hellcow
09-08-07, 02:43 AM But at the same time, it's possible to adventure in Zilargo and not run into or have to deal with the Trust at all, if you so choose, and not contradict canon or your points above.
Certainly. If you're not committing a crime or threatening society, you WON'T run into the Trust, because that's the point of the Trust; it's invisible. However, because of that, the trick is that if you do carry out a criminal adventure, even if you're successful, that doesn't mean that you haven't run into the Trust; perhaps you did, they took note of your actions, and let it pass - or are planning to take vengeance in the future. One of the things that makes the Trust so effective is that everyone knows their reputation for omniscience - and while you KNOW it can't be true, can you be certain it hasn't touched you? You're in an inn in a small village. There's a good chance that no one in the inn has anything to do with the Trust - or even if they do, they're just an information gatherer, not a deadly assassin. But how do you know? Will you take the chance? If you seem to have gotten away with it... well, how sure are you? Are they playing a game with you?

As a DM, you're certainly on solid ground to just say "You're lucky, no Trust around these parts", if that's what you want to do. But anyone planning a scam in Zilargo is nuts if they aren't at least WORRIED about the Trust, and if they don't take steps to cover themselves. And if I did commit the big murder in Zilargo and get away with it... I'd still probably feel a little nervous every time I saw a gnome on the street. Did I really get away with it? Or has the bill finally come due?

Crime in Zilargo isn't impossible by any means. But it should be a different experience than you get in other nations. If you want to pull it off, you need to be more Ocean's Eleven than Raising Arizona.
Yakman
09-08-07, 11:39 AM great analogy :heehee

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The_Gimp 08-25-07, 11:44 AM	So has probably many if not all of you know about "The Trust" gnomish agency, way of life. I got trouble figuring it out and one of my players wanted to be part of it and I'd like to make it a center-point for the story to revolve around. Any place I could find more information on that aside the little bit in the ECS? Thanks guys!
Alex_ 08-25-07, 12:11 PM	More information the Trust is provided in Player's Guide to Eberron (page 68). There's also some posts on the boards by Hellcow about how they generally operate, but I can't seem to find them. They really do reveal a lot, like how the Trust prefers non-violent methods to solving problems, and only kills when it feels it has no other choice, and that any situation which came to this constitutes a failure on their part. If someone runs around stealing things, they'd do something like just steal it back- letting the person know they're being watched and that the Trust is omniscient/omnipotent rather than a more direct punishment.
The Dreaming Duck 08-25-07, 02:36 PM	OP: Check out the Zilargo Dragonshards: Part One (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041129a) Part Two (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041206a) They really do reveal a lot, like how the Trust prefers non-violent methods to solving problems, and only kills when it feels it has no other choice, and that any situation which came to this constitutes a failure on their part. If someone runs around stealing things, they'd do something like just steal it back- letting the person know they're being watched and that the Trust is omniscient/omnipotent rather than a more direct punishment. This seems to contradict the PGtE description, which says "Agents of the Trust hold the full power of law in Zilargo, and their methods are ruthless: A would-be thief might be poisoned in a tavern even while planning a robbery. The Trust... decided that the moral concerns about such practices are offset by the societal benefit they produce." The Dragonshards even start off with a group of adventurers being assassinated by the Trust. I'm not arguing that they'd use alternatives to killing if they solved the problem, but the "let the guy steal and then steal back" seems to be at odds with the "kill him pre-emptively before he has the opportunity to steal." My view of Zilargo is that they want you to be so frightened of the consequences that you won't even THINK about committing a crime, because for all you know everyone around you could be working for the Trust, and one wrong word could get you killed. If it's "One wrong word could get them playing jolly little games with you" - well, it doesn't seem quite as sinister.
Alex_ 08-25-07, 05:40 PM	OP: Check out the Zilargo Dragonshards: Part One (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041129a) Part Two (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041206a) This seems to contradict the PGtE description, which says "Agents of the Trust hold the full power of law in Zilargo, and their methods are ruthless: A would-be thief might be poisoned in a tavern even while planning a robbery. The Trust... decided that the moral concerns about such practices are offset by the societal benefit they produce." The PgTF entry wasn't written by Kieth, so it's understandable that there can or would be some conflict. Here's my attempt at resolution. The PGtF uses the word might, suggesting that it's a possible course of action, and example of the extremes they would go to to accomplish a goal. That doesn't mean it's the first, or the most desirable one, but if they feel that's what they have to do, they'll do it. Also, not all, or even most poisons in D&D kill. A few merely knock them out for a time, of the rest that deal ability score damage, only the kinds that can reduce you to 0 Constitution will outright kill you. Also, the nature of the robbery or the plan was unknown, and could have influenced the the choice. If the robber was planning on stealing something, but in a way that nobody was hurt or that wouldn't really disrupt Zil society, then non lethal options could be used. If the plan included killing people and stealing their identities, and dispatching guards, it would have warranted more serious methods. So maybe a few drops of Oil of Taggit were slipped into his drink, which would only knock him out, but when he awakens, the plans he has been writing up are gone (a clear sign his actions have not gone unnoticed). Maybe it means Purple Worm or Giant Wasp venom, which would leave him severely weakened or possibly paralyzed for several weeks, and unable to hatch his scheme (or allow the Trust to shore up more countermeasures), but ultimately still alive. Or perhaps they did mean something like Black Lotus Extract, that would have just outright killed him minutes after drinking it (although a corpse in a crowded tavern can be disruptive in an of itself). Or maybe they choose not to poison him at all, and do something else to foil his plot or keep it from ultimately negatively impacting Zilgaro and its people. Afterall, poisoning him is something they might do, not something they always or prefer to do. The Dragonshards even start off with a group of adventurers being assassinated by the Trust. These were violent and obviously dangerous individuals who had already attacked and killed a Preceptor (apparently a person of high stature) and beaten someone else to get information out them. People like this would have been imprisoned and more likely made candidates for the death penalty, no matter what nation they were in. This doesn't mean that any country who would kill these people would kill a burglar or thief. The fact that they followed them all the way to Xen'drik, and didn't bother killing them sooner also seems to suggest they didn't want to cause trouble in Zilgaro. I'm not arguing that they'd use alternatives to killing if they solved the problem, but the "let the guy steal and then steal back" seems to be at odds with the "kill him pre-emptively before he has the opportunity to steal." No they wouldn't have just let you steal it, just like they didn't just let the above adventurers kill one person and beat another. They are not omniscient. When something happens that they didn't forsee, they take steps to restore order and normality. In the case of someone who steals a painting, death is pretty extreme. However, if you steal the picture back, and when the culprit wakes up, he finds that what he stole is right back where it originally was, he should get the message that trying to steal anything around this place is a fool's errand. He'd probably also realize that this is just a warning, since if they could have slipped in and stolen the painting from him, they also could have killed them easily. Furthermore, it could be construed that the Trust just let him steal the picture, and was planning on letting his waste time, money, resources, and effort doing it. This would help make the Trust seem more omnipotent than it really is. My view of Zilargo is that they want you to be so frightened of the consequences that you won't even THINK about committing a crime, because for all you know everyone around you could be working for the Trust, and one wrong word could get you killed. If it's "One wrong word could get them playing jolly little games with you" - well, it doesn't seem quite as sinister. I think the views in the book and presented by Hellcow are less extreme than that. It's not that everyone in Zilgaro is afraid of thinking about or talking about committing a crime because they know death or horrible consequences will happen. They don't do it because they figure, "What's the point? You're going to get caught and all of your effort will be for nothing, if you're lucky. Justice will prevail." The average citizen doesn't fear for their life. They know they're not plotting anything worthy of a death penalty. That's the perception I try to give people in my Eberron campaign. In reality (or how I actually do run the Trust), the they aren't that omniscient and omnipotent. They do know more about what's going on than most law enforcement, and are sneaky, but not so much that the PCs would all be killed if they don't plan out a petty crime 100% perfectly. Even if they succeed, it it's not guaranteed the Trust will kill them. However, it is guaranteed the Trust will come after them and try to enforce some kind of justice or set things "right". Sort of like how the Agents in the Matrix, the Law Enforcement in Minority Report, or the Government/Agent in Serenity were powerful, but not so much that challenging them isn't even an option for the heroes of the story, and when they are captured/cornered/etc, they aren't necessarily killed. In Eberron, the PCs are the heroes of the story. Them keeping the heroes from accomplishing their goals before they even set out wasn't where the fun was. The fun was in the heroes running from and conflicting with these forces that seemed ominscient/omnipresent, but could still be overcome by a heroic individual.
Ryoden_Anariavas 08-27-07, 03:16 PM	Check out what KB posted in this thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=911695)
Yakman 09-04-07, 03:47 PM	the Trust is far from ominpresent or omniscent, imv. it's made up of people, and people just aren't everywhere. it keeps the gnomes honest, and does what it can to keep the baddies out of Zilargo, but it's far from the Agents in the Matrix.
eehamburg 09-04-07, 04:28 PM	It may not be omni-everything ... but it is pretty close. After reading all of the back information from the dragonshards and then the recent information that Keith sprawled about, they are a secret police with no equal. Far worse than the KGB, Gestapo, or any other modern real life incarnation. The Trust is far more insidious and clandestine than any of them and they have provided me with some much-needed inspiration.
Hellcow 09-04-07, 04:40 PM	it's made up of people, and people just aren't everywhere. Though the collary is that people are everywhere the PCs are, given that the PCs are people. The point of the Trust is that in Zilargo, anyone could be an agent of the Trust (though the majority are listeners, not assassins or anything like that). They don't wear uniforms. You can't rule out people from certain religions, walks of life, or even based on race; I'm sure they've incorporated a few expats and changelings into the system. Barmaid, beggar, soldier, thief - any of them could be eyes of the Trust. It's more likely that they AREN'T, yes - but you don't know, and that's what keeps people honest. In the Matrix, anyone can suddenly morph into an agent. You're right, the Trust doesn't literally have that sort of power. But at times it may seem that they do - because there's no easy way to predict when the butler or blacksmith may hit you with hold person or a death attack. The power of the Trust is in part an illusion, but the illusion works because it's supported by a frighteningly efficient truth. Can you even be sure about the other members of your own party? Perhaps it is unlikely that they've served the Trust all along... but are you certain the halfling hasn't been replaced by a disguised Trust assassin in the past 24 hours? After all, he did go off alone to buy that magic dagger. If you REALLY want to make the Trust scary - and it ties into your planned adventure to have the party run afoul of the Trust, meaning they have a reason to keep them alive - I'd do something like this. Do the math; make sure the person who goes off alone can be captured. Make sure the replacement can duplicate his abilities. But at the right moment, reveal the switch - either using the missing PC as ransom, or when the "PC" betrays/poisons/steals spellbooks/leads them into trap/whatever. Work it out with the PC beforehand if he's game; surprise him as well if he's not (He thinks he's got an ironclad tip - well, actually he never had that tip, that was the Trust guy lying to the PC. You'll need to roll some Bluffs, Spots, and Sense Motives behind the screen, but there you are). The Trust doesn't fight fair. PCs are the heroes, and all that - which means the Trust will fight even dirtier to deal with them.
Yakman 09-08-07, 01:01 AM	But at the same time, it's possible to adventure in Zilargo and not run into or have to deal with the Trust at all, if you so choose, and not contradict canon or your points above.
Hellcow 09-08-07, 02:43 AM	But at the same time, it's possible to adventure in Zilargo and not run into or have to deal with the Trust at all, if you so choose, and not contradict canon or your points above. Certainly. If you're not committing a crime or threatening society, you WON'T run into the Trust, because that's the point of the Trust; it's invisible. However, because of that, the trick is that if you do carry out a criminal adventure, even if you're successful, that doesn't mean that you haven't run into the Trust; perhaps you did, they took note of your actions, and let it pass - or are planning to take vengeance in the future. One of the things that makes the Trust so effective is that everyone knows their reputation for omniscience - and while you KNOW it can't be true, can you be certain it hasn't touched you? You're in an inn in a small village. There's a good chance that no one in the inn has anything to do with the Trust - or even if they do, they're just an information gatherer, not a deadly assassin. But how do you know? Will you take the chance? If you seem to have gotten away with it... well, how sure are you? Are they playing a game with you? As a DM, you're certainly on solid ground to just say "You're lucky, no Trust around these parts", if that's what you want to do. But anyone planning a scam in Zilargo is nuts if they aren't at least WORRIED about the Trust, and if they don't take steps to cover themselves. And if I did commit the big murder in Zilargo and get away with it... I'd still probably feel a little nervous every time I saw a gnome on the street. Did I really get away with it? Or has the bill finally come due? Crime in Zilargo isn't impossible by any means. But it should be a different experience than you get in other nations. If you want to pull it off, you need to be more Ocean's Eleven than Raising Arizona.
Yakman 09-08-07, 11:39 AM	great analogy :heehee