Post/Author/DateTime	Post
From_Khyber 06-14-07, 09:24 AM	Hello dear friends. Because of the horrifying lack of information we have on the Zilargo gnomes, this is an attempt to create a No Love for the Goblins (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=714453) thread, only with gnomes. Let this be the an unofficial encyclopedia, where all of us contribute with our knowledge on everything and anything that concerns the Zilargo gnomes (industries, life and society, goverment and politics, power groups and important organizations, religion and faith, mention-worthy settlements and key locations, anything!). Since my current knowledge on these little buggers is questionable, I will read every bit of info that I have on them, and post as soon as I can. But anyway, feel free to bomb this thread with ideas and thoughts! Thanks in advance :)
Need_A_Life 06-14-07, 11:16 AM	Well, the gnomes of Zilargo were the straw that broke the camels back when it comes to the Dhaakani. Basically, these "Jungle Rats" (as the primitive gnomes were known back then) had been using guerilla tactics for centuries, to little effect, but when the Dhakaani empire was on the verge of collapse the gnomes managed to finally fight off their oppressers, and establish the three city-states of what is now known as Zilargo.
The_wizard_Tim 06-14-07, 11:50 AM	Gnomes are the scariest of all the groups in eberron. they come up all nice and steal your cool stuff then make it there own. eventually they will take over everything... although not in the open, they will pull all the strings though.
From_Khyber 06-14-07, 04:21 PM	Well, the gnomes of Zilargo were the straw that broke the camels back when it comes to the Dhaakani. Basically, these "Jungle Rats" (as the primitive gnomes were known back then) had been using guerilla tactics for centuries, to little effect, but when the Dhakaani empire was on the verge of collapse the gnomes managed to finally fight off their oppressers, and establish the three city-states of what is now known as Zilargo. Well, the ECS states that the gnomes always managed to maintain their independence and fight off the goblinoids through diplomacy rather than violence and combat, so we can confirm that they've always been shrewd negotiators. The gnomes' admirable diplomacy also granted them Zilargo, when Galifar confronted them with his army. This (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041129a) Dragonshard contradicts with this piece of information, however. Here, we can read that they were actually enslaved or forced deeper into the wilderness by the Dhakaani Empire, seeing as how structured and well-disciplined the Empire was at that time. I'm not sure, but I'm inclined to pursue the Dragonshard's theory rather than the ECS's. Gnomes started out as a primitive-nature, and I can't see sense in them being able to repel the immense Dhakaani Empire.
From_Khyber 06-14-07, 04:39 PM	eventually they will take over everything... although not in the open, they will pull all the strings though. That's an arguable theory. I don't think the gnomes would be interested in "taking over everything", not even in secrecy. Perhaps they'd seek technological supremacy, but I honestly can't see why rule and power should interest them. Please elaborate ;)
Revvecor 06-14-07, 04:49 PM	I'm not sure, but I'm inclined to pursue the Dragonshard's theory rather than the ECS's. Gnomes started out as a primitive-nature, and I can't see sense in them being able to repel the immense Dhakaani Empire. I assumed it was both. By this I mean that they appear and interact with all non-gnomes' with "words" and compromising. But in reality they are so obsessed with competing for more knowledge and security that they will do anything to solve any problem that interferes with there plans.
Nundahl 06-14-07, 05:17 PM	This is more of a silly thing in contrast to the discussion on Gnome history, but here goes. Recently my girlfriend asked me where I think elephants would be in Eberron, I told her I hadn't read anything so it would come down to DM's choice unless I've missed it elsewhere, but where I to guess I'd say Zilargo fits the jungle need for African Elephants, and then we started discussing the possibilities of some Elephant Calvary for Gnome riders. I'm currently deciding if I want that to be in "my" Eberron but it is a fun idea, perhaps even just some kind of tusked dwarf elephant, wouldn't be much different than riding a dire boar. I would certainly not make it a big deal in the Eberron world, just a small military unit of specialty Elephant Riders might be fun.
Alex_ 06-14-07, 05:35 PM	I to guess I'd say Zilargo fits the jungle need for African Elephants, and then we started discussing the possibilities of some Elephant Calvary for Gnome riders.... I'm currently deciding if I want that to be in "my" Eberron but it is a fun idea, perhaps even just some kind of tusked dwarf elephant, wouldn't be much different than riding a dire boar. Actually, there IS a smaller species of Elephant in Africa that lives in forests. Loxodonta cyclotis is a smaller and lesser known species that is similar to the larger African Elephant that most people are familiar, which live on open grasslands and savanna. Of course African Elephants in general are harder to tame. The species of more commonly scene in circuses or as war animals are Indian elephants. Considering the fact that Indian elephants live almost exclusively in jungle in and around the Indian subcontinent (a region from which Zilgaro draws some influences) might make them the superior choice. Now you've inspired me to include Elephants in my campaign. Maybe by Gnomes will lose their ability to communicate with small burrowing mammals, and instead be able to communicate with large mammals like elephants. Hmmm, that would seem a bit more overt in affirming any Indian-inspirations as well as steal some thunder from the unique Talenta Halfling/Dinosaur relationship. Perhaps the Zilgaro/Dhakaani conflict could draw some influences from Indian/Chinese historical relationships. I'm not talking about blatant historical events transplanted into Eberron with skins changed, but overall themes.
Nived 06-14-07, 05:44 PM	They are very clean people. The cleanest in fact. Their natural ability to use prestidigitation has given their entire culture a near obsessive compulsive bent when it comes to cleanliness (which is next to godliness and gnomliness). The streets in Zilargo are immaculate, its a matter of civic pride. Houses are spotless, clothes are stainfree, whites are whiter, the paint on the buildings never seems to fade. Even 'dive' bars in Zilargo are disconcertingly clean. The entire country has a lemon fresh smell. Other than Korrenberg... which is pine scented.
From_Khyber 06-14-07, 05:49 PM	This is more of a silly thing in contrast to the discussion on Gnome history, but here goes. Recently my girlfriend asked me where I think elephants would be in Eberron, I told her I hadn't read anything so it would come down to DM's choice unless I've missed it elsewhere, but where I to guess I'd say Zilargo fits the jungle need for African Elephants, and then we started discussing the possibilities of some Elephant Calvary for Gnome riders. I'm currently deciding if I want that to be in "my" Eberron but it is a fun idea, perhaps even just some kind of tusked dwarf elephant, wouldn't be much different than riding a dire boar. I would certainly not make it a big deal in the Eberron world, just a small military unit of specialty Elephant Riders might be fun. Nothing is silly here, as long as it has something with gnomes to do. I kinda like the idea (surely, a gnome on a gigantic elephant would make a rather fearsome prospect). However, I don't think the gnomes of Zilargo have military divisions (?). Anyway, if the ancient Dhakaani Empire made use of elephants as cavalry, the assumption of gnomes having adapted this technique is not unrealistic. Perhaps a minority of gnomes maintained this practice, and still train elephants in the wilds of Zilargo.
Alex_ 06-14-07, 06:40 PM	Elephants can have other uses other than as war mounts. They're essentially living engineering vehicles. They can uproot trees, push/pull heavy loads, and manipulate large objects (especially by Gnome standards) with comparable dexterity via their trunks. Elephants could be instrumental in the building of Trolanport, able to easily wade amongst the shallow waterways, flooded lands, and provide stable working platforms for the construction of buildings (boats bob and can turn over).
Nived 06-14-07, 06:43 PM	Gnomes would naturally have a tendancy towards animal husbandry. They can talk to burrowing animals. When EVERYONE in a culture can talk to animals its going to effect their way of life. Not that elephants qualify for gnome conversations, but its something to keep in mind.
From_Khyber 06-14-07, 06:45 PM	Elephants can have other uses other than as war mounts. They're essentially living engineering vehicles. They can uproot trees, push/pull heavy loads, and manipulate large objects (especially by Gnome standards) with comparable dexterity via their trunks. Elephants could be instrumental in the building of Trolanport, able to easily wade amongst the shallow waterways, flooded lands, and provide stable working platforms for the construction of buildings (boats bob and can turn over). Good point. Hadn't thought of this. The gnomes could indeed be using these elephants for industrial purposes. However, I think they would prefer magic for construction rather than animals.
From_Khyber 06-14-07, 06:46 PM	Gnomes would naturally have a tendancy towards animal husbandry. They can talk to burrowing animals. When EVERYONE in a culture can talk to animals its going to effect their way of life. Not that elephants qualify for gnome conversations, but its something to keep in mind. Can gnomes talk to animals?! :eek: Someone has missed an important detail in the ECS, geez!
Nived 06-14-07, 06:47 PM	Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—speak with animals (burrowing mammal only, duration 1 minute). A gnome with a Charisma score of at least 10 also has the following spell-like abilities: 1/day—dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation. Caster level 1st; save DC 10 + gnome’s Cha modifier + spell level. Everyone forgets Gnomes are the only naturally magical core race. Yes they can cast speak with animals.
AkumaDaimyo 06-14-07, 06:52 PM	Didn't gnomes come up with stuff like elemental binding and your going to have them ride elephants? Doesn't really fit. I think Elephants would be more common in Xen Drik, it seems to be where everything that lives in jungles comes from not to mention most "safari" type animals. I don't see Zilargo gnomes riding elephants ever. That doesn't live up to their cosmopolition image at all. Thats something a dirty wild gnome would do or a Talenta halfling.
From_Khyber 06-14-07, 06:54 PM	They are very clean people. The cleanest in fact. Their natural ability to use prestidigitation has given their entire culture a near obsessive compulsive bent when it comes to cleanliness (which is next to godliness and gnomliness). The streets in Zilargo are immaculate, its a matter of civic pride. Houses are spotless, clothes are stainfree, whites are whiter, the paint on the buildings never seems to fade. Even 'dive' bars in Zilargo are disconcertingly clean. The entire country has a lemon fresh smell. Other than Korrenberg... which is pine scented. Perhaps you could have teams of cleaners toddling through the streets of Zilargo, while casting prestidigitation in highly systematic techniques, eliminating every bit of dirt imaginable.
From_Khyber 06-14-07, 07:02 PM	Didn't gnomes come up with stuff like elemental binding and your going to have them ride elephants? Doesn't really fit.[QUOTE] I must disagree. While they did bring elemental binding to the continent of Khorvaire, I can't see how this should hinder them from making use of elephants. [QUOTE]Thats something a dirty wild gnome would do or a Talenta halfling. Because only dirty savages ride elephants? Sounds like a stereotypical aspect from our own world, don't you think?
Nived 06-14-07, 07:04 PM	Zilargo cooking is nearly impossible to replicate by a non gnome. Again because of Prestidigitation and its ability to effect taste, gnome cooking is in fact magical. An illusionary blend of taste sensations that are truely mind blowing. Of course mages and the marked of House Ghallanda can achieve similar results, but gnomes grow up with this everyday and are of course better at it. Imagine it, old family recipies that include arcane formulas.
From_Khyber 06-14-07, 07:09 PM	Zilargo cooking is nearly impossible to replicate by a non gnome. Again because of Prestidigitation and its ability to effect taste, gnome cooking is in fact magical. An illusionary blend of taste sensations that are truely mind blowing. Of course mages and the marked of House Ghallanda can achieve similar results, but gnomes grow up with this everyday and are of course better at it. Imagine it, old family recipies that include arcane formulas. Surely sounds tasty :)
Alex_ 06-14-07, 07:26 PM	Didn't gnomes come up with stuff like elemental binding and your going to have them ride elephants? Doesn't really fit. And House Cannith artificiers ion Cyre invented creation forges and Warforged, but people there still ride/rode oxen and horses. Surely Gnomes didn't walk on foot everywhere they traveled before elemental binding was discovered, or even afterwards, as the price/resources required would have been prohibitive. There is as much a need for draft animals and beasts of burden amongst the Zil as there is amongst any other culture. I think Elephants would be more common in Xen Drik, it seems to be where everything that lives in jungles comes from not to mention most "safari" type animals. Eberron is home to other elephant sized animals in the form of the larger dinosaurs on the Talenta Plains. There is precedent for large "exotic" animals on Khorvaire. It's not limited to western/northern Eurasian flora and fauna. Zilgaro does have tropical rainforests after all. I don't see Zilargo gnomes riding elephants ever. That doesn't live up to their cosmopolition image at all. Ever been to or known someone from India? Or for a more vivid fantasy version, try Waterfall City in Dinotopia, only replace the dinosaurs with elephants, and various animals... In fact, Waterfall City in Dionotopia is much like Zilgaro (both of which are of inspired by Venice), seeing as its built on a body of water, with canal-like streets, unique architecture, centers of learning, and in being an almost utopian style society.
Alex_ 06-14-07, 07:32 PM	Zilargo cooking is nearly impossible to replicate by a non gnome. Again because of Prestidigitation and its ability to effect taste, gnome cooking is in fact magical. An illusionary blend of taste sensations that are truely mind blowing. Of course mages and the marked of House Ghallanda can achieve similar results, but gnomes grow up with this everyday and are of course better at it. Imagine it, old family recipies that include arcane formulas. Don't forget that Gnomes have a very sensitive sense of smell, which is closely related to taste. This helps them become master alchemists since they can measure exact substances by smell/taste alone. And of course Gnomes have strong constitutions, so they can take stuff that would make other races sick. Even if you knew the ingredients and the general recipe, only a Gnome could get the exact flavors right, or even stand the exact flavors to begin with. I would imagine Gnome foods being very spicy, sweet, and tart to the point where they might be unpalatable by the other races. The "genuine Zil cuisine" you order at a house Galandha inn or restaurant is horribly watered down and bland in comparison.
DragoonDarkfire 06-14-07, 08:26 PM	They are very clean people. The cleanest in fact. Their natural ability to use prestidigitation has given their entire culture a near obsessive compulsive bent when it comes to cleanliness (which is next to godliness and gnomliness). The streets in Zilargo are immaculate, its a matter of civic pride. Houses are spotless, clothes are stainfree, whites are whiter, the paint on the buildings never seems to fade. Even 'dive' bars in Zilargo are disconcertingly clean. The entire country has a lemon fresh smell. Other than Korrenberg... which is pine scented. I suppose then that Gnome maids would be in high demand? At least for those that could avoid becoming involved in an "unfortunate accident"
AkumaDaimyo 06-14-07, 09:06 PM	[QUOTE=AkumaDaimyo;12729345]Didn't gnomes come up with stuff like elemental binding and your going to have them ride elephants? Doesn't really fit.[QUOTE] I must disagree. While they did bring elemental binding to the continent of Khorvaire, I can't see how this should hinder them from making use of elephants. Because only dirty savages ride elephants? Sounds like a stereotypical aspect from our own world, don't you think? I must disagree, it goes against their image presented. Riding a elephant? Pft. They'd ride something far more regal/cosmpolition.
Darth Syntax 06-14-07, 09:08 PM	In fact, Waterfall City in Dionotopia is much like Zilgaro (both of which are of inspired by Venice), seeing as its built on a body of water, with canal-like streets, unique architecture, centers of learning, and in being an almost utopian style society. I agree with you whole heartedly about Waterfall City and Zilargo (especially as when it comes to Trolanport). -- On The Keeping and Passing of Secrets The true currency of Zilargo is neither gold nor rare goods, nor it is to be found backed by the banknotes of Kundarak. The wealth of Zilargo is measured in secrets. Zil society is founded on secrets and it is therefor no great surprise that the passing on of secrets is an act of great importance. When a Zil believes that the end is near and death is fast approaching they choose someone to be their iolanazato, their Vessel of Secrets (the word is derived from the verb iolanor 'to hold or to keep' and azat the word for 'secret'). The iolanazato sits with the dying Zil, never leaving the room for more than a few minutes, and is told all the secrets that the dying gnomes has learned over the course of their life. Often, this telling of secrets can last for days, if not weeks, and when the end finally comes, the iolanazato swears to keep all the secrets safe and to act on behalf of the dying should any "loose ends" be left at the end of life. Secret debts are repaid, vengeance may be sought, and any other untidiness that is left after death is straighted out. Once this tidying up is finished, the secrets belong to the iolanazato to do with as they see fit.
Splendide 06-14-07, 09:39 PM	I must disagree, it goes against their image presented. Riding a elephant? Pft. They'd ride something far more regal/cosmpolition.Elephants seem just that bit too big. I'd back them in for rhinos though.
Alex_ 06-14-07, 09:47 PM	I must disagree, it goes against their image presented. Riding a elephant? Pft. They'd ride something far more regal/cosmpolition. If we go by what's presented, they don't ride anything that isn't an elementally bound vehicle, and those are so rare as to be impractical as a mode of transport on par with a beast of burden. And really, what says "noble, cosmopolitan, and wealthy" like riding down the street on the back of an elephant- the largest, most powerful, and smartest non-magical mount one can think of? Images related. http://www.kamat.com/kalranga/artifact/stamps/2643.jpg http://www.maharajatent.com/images/india1887durbar1.jpg Compared to images of Zilgaro Gnomes. http://www.coveworld.net/eberron/317art13.jpg http://www.coveworld.net/eberron/317art14.jpg It seems to suit them well. ........................................ ........................................ ..... On a different note... Although Gnomes are social creatures, they don't place as close a value on family as the members of other races. They are far to shrewd and aware of the value of proper information and alliances to let themselves be tied down due to obligations created from genealogy (as no Gnome has a say in their birth). At a young age, Gnomes begin to distance themselves from their families, spending more time and confiding more often in personally chosen friends, contacts, and associates, forming another sort of family known as a their yarisha. As a Zil Gnome ages, their yarisha takes on greater and greater significance in their lives, and is considered the key to success. Although these relationships are often mutually beneficial, good number are also based on manipulation and blackmail. In the event of emergencies, crises, or death, the yarisha is referred to instead of blood relative- although it is possible to have a family member as part of one's yarisha. Because of this unique view of family, the concept of Dragonmarked houses- a social construct where blood family matters more in a relationship than practicality or utility- seemed foreign to the Gnomes. However, when they noticed the powers the other Dragonmarked houses possessed, it did not take long for them to realize that perhaps some family ties have more pragmatic and tangible benefits than others.
Splendide 06-14-07, 10:34 PM	Civil Law in Zilargo While the day-to-day life of the average Zil on the street is usually self-regulated, sometimes there are agreements and issues so complex and twisted that they need external help to repair, and sometimes an issue becomes so prominent that it can no longer be dealt with quietly. These are jobs for arbiters. Council of Arbitration The Council of Arbitration governs the processing of Zil civil, and occasionally criminal, law. It was granted virtual autonomy from the Galifar legal system approximately 20 years after Zilargo's initial treaty with the Five Nations, due to the difficulties faced in installing the new system - Galifar's operation of courts and due process ended up being a massively wealth-losing operation due to hundreds of seemingly frivolous torts per month (Galifar itself was subject to numerous suits regarding restriction of trade) and in the end jurisprudence was again returned to the Zil themselves. The Council of Arbitration is selected and governed by the Triumvirate, and is structured in the same manner - three seats on the council are awarded to representatives of each of the three cities and their surrounding provinces. However, while the Council is subject to the Triumvirate, its members and employees are granted the right to withhold information from the Triumvirate that does not directly pertain to national security. The Council of Arbitration have three jobs. The first is to appoint an arbiter to govern over a dispute at the request of the Triumvirate; the second is to manage funding for arbitrations held concerning parties that have requesting arbiter intervention, and the third is to make certain that all arbiter's decisions are ethically correct. Selection of Arbiters One of the greatest honours that a Zil citizen can receive is being appointed as an arbiter, as it is through the arbiter that the traditions of Zil law and the ongoing commercial safety of Zilargo itself are decided, The appointees themselves, almost without exception, have excelled in their chosen fields. A large number of arbiter appointments are ceremonial, though even those loyal citizens retain the right to be nominated to mediate disputes. Arbiters are not compensated for their work; instead all funds pertaining to their job go directly to the Council of Arbitration, who in turn allocate funds for whatever arbritration-related expenses the arbiter has. This includes accomodation, a meals allowance, funds for investigations that the arbiter deems necessary, bribes to get information from reluctant sources, and so forth. The qualifications to operate as an arbiter are rather simple, and pertain more to character than skills. The arbiter must have shown themselves to not be easily swayed by words, to be incorruptable, and inventive enough to come up with a flexible and satisfactory result. They also have to have a known loyalty to Zilargo itself; being a gnome is certainly not a requirement. The Arbiter's Mandate (loosely translated and simplified) * Find the best result, not the fair result. * Pragmatism, not idealism. * Always remember the greater good. So how does arbitration work? An arbitration begins when a given arbiter is either assigned a dispute by the Council, or when two or more involved parties approach the arbiter with a request for intervention. If the arbiter accepts, then the official process of arbitration will be started within 13 days. In recent times, standard procedure is to list an official notice in the Korranberg Chronicle, asking interested parties to present their information from the chosen date. At this point, the arbiter starts assessing the argument and works out what resources he expects to need for the arbitration. He applies to the Council for funds, and starts hiring contractors to help him reach his decision - House Medani is often used, though in many cases an arbiter may prefer to avoid the involvement of a dragonmarked house for fear of slanted information being gathered, and hires his own independent investigators. From the designated date of official arbitration, any interested parties may seek out the arbiter to express their own concerns, and impart any information that they consider to be valuable in reaching a decision. There is no legal requirement for these parties to tell the truth, but if they lie and the arbiter determines that they have, the final decisions made rarely work out well for those parties. For council-appointed arbitrations, it is standard for at least one member of the Trust to inform the arbiter as to the various goings-on - such information received is expected and required to be honest and accurate. Typically the major parties involved in a dispute appoint an advocate to represent their position; for larger organizations, such as dragonmarked houses, an exclusive advocate is usually kept on retainer. Keeping such a retainer is consider conducive to better representation, as they are able to know more house secrets than the house would be comfortable in sharing with a neutral. Consistent representation also allows an advocate to paint a better picture of their employer over a series of arbitrations, something that Tharashk recently discovered when applying for new mining rights in the Seawall mountains. Such advocates are never appointed as arbiters, due to their obvious mixed loyalties. For those without the resources to keep their own advocate, barristers from House Sivis are well suited to present their concerns. Advocates typically will bring forward any information that portrays their perceptions as correct, and have no obligation to present any contrary evidence. Similarly, they are expected to be deceptive in their presentation, and all arbiters are aware of this - this is simply tradition. After a few days of receiving information, inspecting relevant sites, and questioning the concerned parties, the arbiter will announce his decision in a final speech. He will usually keep any confidential information to himself, but will happily point out any embarrassingly poor lies he has been presented with. He will give reasons for his decision, and will sometimes announce conditions under which this arbitration may be reopened. Frequently Answered Questions By the six! I've been sent a letter informing me that my private contract with a member of the Korran family is being investigated by the Arbitration Council, even though it was signed under Galifar's laws! Is this legal? If the contract is either made concerning the nation of Zilargo or involves a Zil citizen, and it is expected to be detrimental to the welfare of Zilargo by a member of the Council of Arbitration, it can be reassessed at the request of the Council of Arbitration. If this is discovered to have been a frivolous request made of the council, you may gain additional compensation. My father and uncle have a long-held dispute over the last will and testament of my great-grandfather, concerning ownership of a valuable gem mine south of Zolanberg. How can I gain the assistance of an arbiter to resolve this? There are two options. The first is to gain the agreement of your father and uncle to allow an arbiter to decide the issue - you may then choose the arbiter to approach with this request. If he is willing to solve this issue, he will request funds to be sent to the Council of Arbitration to cover costs - these funds can be paid by anyone, or in this case could be agreed to come from the mine itself after the case. Your second option is to make a presentation to the Council of Arbitration, claiming that this mine falling into disuse negatively affects the ongoing welfare of Zilargo's commerce. In this case, an arbiter is selected by the council, and payment is not required, but may be extracted by the arbiter upon resolution of this dispute, in this case most likely seizing resources from the mine to cover costs. How do I become an arbiter? By always endeavouring to do your best, by honing your gods-given wit, and by loving your homeland. NEW FEAT Arbiter [General] You have been appointed by the Council of Arbitration to handle the affairs of the Zil with honor and wisdom. Prerequisites: Sense Motive 6 ranks, Knowledge (local - Zilargo) 6 ranks, Base Will Save +5, Must be a proud Zil citizen. Benefit: You may be selected by the Council of Arbitration to mediate disputes, and may also choose to solve disputes within Zilargo by request. You gain a +2 bonus on Sense Motive checks against parties involved in an investigation, and a +2 to bonus on Diplomacy checks with Zil citizens aware of your Arbiter status.
Revvecor 06-14-07, 10:46 PM	NEW FEAT Arbiter [General] You have been appointed by the Council of Arbitration to handle the affairs of the Zil with honor and wisdom. Prerequisites: Sense Motive 6 ranks, Knowledge (local - Zilargo) 6 ranks, Base Will Save +5, Must be a proud Zil citizen. Benefit: You may be selected by the Council of Arbitration to mediate disputes, and may also choose to solve disputes within Zilargo by request. You gain a +2 bonus on Sense Motive checks against parties involved in an investigation, and a +2 to bonus on Diplomacy checks with Zil citizens aware of your Arbiter status. This sounds like an interesting concept. It begs the questions; 1) How will my(characters) interaction in these proceeding's effect my future interactions? 2) Whom will be glad/upset with me in future interactions? All in all I like your idea:ayyyy!:
Splendide 06-14-07, 10:51 PM	In terms of actual games, there's plenty of other use for this too. * Rogueish adventuring parties being hired by the arbiter to uncover information. * A deal that a high-level party member is involved in becoming subject to an Arbitration. * Being hired by an advocate to uncover information, or conceal it from the arbiter. * A PC arbiter being requested to resolve a dispute between Thuranni and Phiarlan. * Uncovering a corrupt arbiter. * Solving the mysterious murder of an arbiter that got too close to something.
Splendide 06-15-07, 12:00 AM	Why Trolanport's Streets Are Flooded It would be easy to assume that Trolanport's streets are flooded due to the city itself sinking into the river's delta, but in fact the city's streets were artificially lowered in 208YK as a means to solve the issues of permanent private moorage. At that time, the three main piers extending from the eastern shore (Sharatein, the oldest and western-most; Aerein, the most central and longest, and Korrein, the eastern-most) were suffering from a serious overcrowding problem with private vessels clogging up many of the major arteries of transport. It was felt that it would be more convenient for Trolanport's citizens to travel directly to their workplace by boat, rather than walk to the jetties first and then using their boats to service the sea trade, so a city-wide project to lower the streets below the water level (and reclaim the inner-most sections of the jetties as residential and commercial space) was commenced, to everyone's satisfaction. Real-world appearance similarities http://k53.pbase.com/o4/34/123234/1/57610514.nyhavn.jpg http://www.airninja.com/pictures/venice/venice_canal.jpg
Darth Syntax 06-15-07, 12:47 AM	Although Gnomes are social creatures, they don't place as close a value on family as the members of other races. They are far to shrewd and aware of the value of proper information and alliances to let themselves be tied down due to obligations created from genealogy (as no Gnome has a say in their birth). At a young age, Gnomes begin to distance themselves from their families, spending more time and confiding more often in personally chosen friends, contacts, and associates, forming another sort of family known as a their yarisha. As a Zil Gnome ages, their yarisha takes on greater and greater significance in their lives, and is considered the key to success. Although these relationships are often mutually beneficial, good number are also based on manipulation and blackmail. In the event of emergencies, crises, or death, the yarisha is referred to instead of blood relative- although it is possible to have a family member as part of one's yarisha. Because of this unique view of family, the concept of Dragonmarked houses- a social construct where blood family matters more in a relationship than practicality or utility- seemed foreign to the Gnomes. However, when they noticed the powers the other Dragonmarked houses possessed, it did not take long for them to realize that perhaps some family ties have more pragmatic and tangible benefits than others. Now, I took the opposite view on gnome family structure (your yarisha system is somewhat similar to who I worked out Dhakaani family relations actually) by making Zil family ties some of the most complex and involved on Eberron. House Sivis seems to have been instrumental in the creation of the internal familial politics of the Dragonmarked houses, so it seemed to me that they would have drawn heavily from Zil custom. The system the houses use is something like a greatly simplified version of how Zil kinship works out. -- On the Zil Kinship System and politics The Zil do not make use of the same kinship system as the the Galifarans; they make little if any distinction between one's father and his brothers, or one's mother and her sisters. In the former case, one's father and one's father's brothers would all be called cavo [ˈkɑvo] and one's mother and her sisters would be called azha [ɑʒə]. Essentially, the Zil kinship system recognizes a patraline descent on the father's side, and a matraline descent on the mother's side. cavo: father or father’s brother navla: father’s sister nado: brother or child of your father’s brother alvo: child of your father’s sister adcavo: paternal grandfather or grandfather’s brother cecavo: paternal grandfather, informal canyo: son, or brother’s son azha: mother, or mother’s sister anor: mother’s brother coli: sister or child of your mother’s sister sovi: child of your mother’s brother adazha: maternal grandmother or her sister azzi: maternal grandmother, informal olvi: daughter or sister’s daughter Family membership and kin groups are determined by one's biological sex. Male children are considered to belong more strongly to their father's family line while female children belong more strongly to their mother's. This shows up in Zil names as one is either named as "X son of Y" where Y is the father's name or "X daughter of Y" where Y is the mother's name. There are, of course, further complication in tracing Zil kinship, especially as one ascends through the various layers of relations. The highest order of kinship in Zilargo is the Great House, of which there are currently 11. All the Great Houses take the honorific suffix -an. The Great Houses of Zilargo Korran Trolan Zalan Sivizan (Sivis or d'Sivis to the rest of the world) Zadran Baccan Oudan Cavian Messilan Vanchian Medecan Each of these Great Houses has several branches, or Lines. The number of Lines is not fixed, although the number is usually between 3 and 6 per house. These Lines are further divided into families and finally into households. Any familial unit is allowed to feud with others of the same level, even within the same house, but loyalty is generally demanded to any higher level of kinship organization. As a general rule, Zil families are quite large and extremely well connected. It is commonplace for a Zil to be on close terms with a relative that we might refer to as a 3rd cousin. These large extended families act as both a social support network and a the smallest de facto political unit in Zilargo. Marriage customs in Zilargo further complicate matters when it comes to family relations. Neither the husband nor the wife has kinship primacy based solely on biological sex; instead, the spouse whose family has the lower status joins the family of the spouse with the higher social status. Children will still trace their genetic descent through the appropriate parent but the family name, and the house name will be determined by the rule of status. This is only the basic of the kinship system, I've not worked the whole thing out. But it is beginning to look correct to me, at least in terms of complexity. -- Splindide, I really like the Arbitrator system; It reminds me vaguely of the FCA (Ferengi Commerce Authority) from Star Trek, only a bit friendlier. Your translated code of behavior is also excellent as the Zil strike me a very pragmatic and utilitarian society.
Szat 06-15-07, 01:54 AM	Is the information provided in this thread found in published material? Or is it just created by the posters? I was under the impression from the 'Dragonshard' articles that the Gnomes put very intense emphasis on familial relations, that the blood bond with family members is the only bond that could be trusted. Due to the Gnomish penchant for intrigue and blackmail. As for the Arbiters...I thought legal matters, not civil disputes, were governed by 'The Trust'. And by 'governed', I mean 'made to disappear'. From what I've read, The Trust is sort of like the police force in Minority Report. Namely, that they deal with criminals with extreme prejudice. Again, this all may be moot, you might be all just creating this information. The reason I ask is because I was planning on creating a campaign based in Zil, with the group playing as a cell of 'The Trust'. Carrying out assassinations, courier missions, and performing acquisitions and important information gathering missions in the name of the state. What you guys have written is extremely creative and if it's published material, I'd love to know where it was published. If it's not, then I'd love to pick your brains for ideas...
Splendide 06-15-07, 02:10 AM	I'm pretty sure its mostly made up, branching off of official ideas. Mine is. As for Arbiters, absolutely the Trust exists and does most of the police work. I just think that there needs to be a public face of law-like authority, particularly civil law, so inserted the Council of Arbitration, which deals with problems in a similar way to the Trust but with less innate violence. And the circumstances in which they would cover criminal offences....perhaps for example when a particularly grisly murder has already hit the presses, maybe its too big for the Trust to deal with and cover up, so in comes the secretly Trust-informed Arbiter to make a big public solution.
Darth Syntax 06-15-07, 02:17 AM	Is the information provided in this thread found in published material? Or is it just created by the posters? I was under the impression from the 'Dragonshard' articles that the Gnomes put very intense emphasis on familial relations, that the blood bond with family members is the only bond that could be trusted. Due to the Gnomish penchant for intrigue and blackmail. Most of what I have written (and much of what others have said I believe) is self generated but with reference to the published material. As for the Arbiters...I thought legal matters, not civil disputes, were governed by 'The Trust'. And by 'governed', I mean 'made to disappear'. From what I've read, The Trust is sort of like the police force in Minority Report. Namely, that they deal with criminals with extreme prejudice. As I understand it, the Trust only gets involved in matters that effect the safety and autonomy of Zilargo as a whole. The Trust are not going to deal with petty crimes or even with your run of the mill murderer; rather they are going to deal with matters of national and international concern. The Trust is more like a cross between a standard intelligence agency and a secret police force that is, perhaps bizarrely, neither corrupt nor power hungry. If it's not [Published Material], then I'd love to pick your brains for ideas... I'll be happy to discuss my interpretation of the Zil, and of gnomes in general in Eberron. It's what the thread it for.
Loki5654 06-15-07, 03:10 AM	A while back, based on their gregarious natures and natural spellcasting ability I created a special fabric (and accompanying magic items) for the Gnomes of Zilargo. The gnomes of Zilargo are a fashionable, gregarious people who know the importance of dressing for success. They are also a clever people, and even the average Zil gnome is capable of performing minor arcane tricks. Zilweave combines these two ideals. Zilweave is a medium weight fabric usually dyed in brilliant colors. Any creature capable of casting prestidigitation can use the spell to permanently alter the color scheme of the fabric. Any color (or combination of colors) can be used, but complex patterns (words, prints, logos, etc.) cannot (tie-dye is OK, "Down with the Trust" or "My other elemental ride is your mom" are not). Small ornamentations (braids, frill, decorative buttons, epaulets, etc.) can be added but only remain in place for one hour, then fade away. Zilweave outfits cost 100gp more than a normal outfit, but weigh the same. Zil merchants realize that other races do not share their arcane talents, so they have created brooches that allow their customers to alter the color of their Zilweave fashions. Zilweave Brooch This small ebon brooch is filligreed with a silver "Z". While wearing a Zilweave Brooch the wearer can speak a command word, allowing them to cast the cantrip prestidigitation. This ability can only be used once per day. Faint Universal; CL 1st; Craft Wonderous Item, prestidigitation, creator must be a Zilargo gnome; Price 180gp (cost to create: 90gp, 8xp) Certain disreputable Zilweave merchants have been known to create single use Zilweave brooches. These brooches may only be used once, are less expensive to create, and are indistiguishable from the authentic brooches. Counterfeit Zilweave Brooch This small ebon brooch is filligreed with a silver "Z". While wearing a Zilweave Brooch the wearer can speak a command word, allowing them to cast the cantrip prestidigitation. After a single use the brooch becomes mundane and inert, good only for decoration. Faint Universal; CL 1st; Craft Wonderous Item, prestidigitation, creator must be a Zilargo gnome; Market Price 180gp, Actual Value 25gp (cost to create: 12.5gp, 1xp) Eternal Zilweave Brooch For the bright-eyed, free-willed, enilightenment seeking consciousness expanders; Zilweave merchants have created this variation of the Zilweave Brooch. When attached to a suit of Zilweave, the Brooch causes the fabric to gently and continuously shift color and pattern. The wearer of the brooch can stop the shifting colors by concentrating on a desired pattern and then removing the brooch. The shifting colors and patterns created by this brooch cannot be used in a mind altering fashion. Faint Universal; CL 1st; Craft Wonderous Item, prestidigitation, creator must be a Zilargo gnome; Market Price: 900gp, Cost to Create: 450gp, 36xp
Splendide 06-15-07, 03:23 AM	niiice. Also, economical! Zilweave tailors just have to make sure they craft comfortable and flattering clothes; the wearer takes care of the rest.
From_Khyber 06-15-07, 07:56 AM	As for Arbiters, absolutely the Trust exists and does most of the police work. I just think that there needs to be a public face of law-like authority, particularly civil law, so inserted the Council of Arbitration, which deals with problems in a similar way to the Trust but with less innate violence. I absolutely loved this idea, and I'm definitely gonna use this in my game. Well done :thumbsup: On the Zil Kinship System and politics I absolutely loved this bit, Syntax. I have a similar view on the Zils' family relations (being tremendously intricate), and what you made there is fantastic work. Well done to you as well :thumbsup: A while back, based on their gregarious natures and natural spellcasting ability I created a special fabric (and accompanying magic items) for the Gnomes of Zilargo. This is incredibly nice worked out as well. It's pleasing to have the fashion adressed as well. :thumbsup: --- On Zil Hobbies, Pastime, and Entertainment, Part I The Zils are renown for their wit, cunning, and deviousness. And when they aren't employing any of these aptitudes, they are either playing games or studying entertainment that reflects them. This, for a Zil, is considered sparetime. Stratagem Where the Karrns are often seen playing Conqueror (See 5N p. 102) in the dusky corners of their shadowy taverns, the Zils enjoy Stratagem - in many aspects, the two games are comparable, but only the most sharp-minded of non-Zils would be able to engage in this chesslike game, where conquering is replaced with conspiracy, secret, intrigue, and scheme. This is a game of illision, magic, and strategy! --- More to come. Feel free to add, as you see fit!
Alex_ 06-15-07, 10:42 AM	Is the information provided in this thread found in published material? Or is it just created by the posters? I was under the impression from the 'Dragonshard' articles that the Gnomes put very intense emphasis on familial relations, that the blood bond with family members is the only bond that could be trusted. Due to the Gnomish penchant for intrigue and blackmail. Just fan created stuff. I suppose based on some extrapolation of published material. I admit though that my idea of Gnomes family structure conflicted greatly with published stuff. I forgot to read up there before I posted. Likewise, the elephants idea is completely unsupported by any published material. Feel free to totally disregard it. Much of the other stuff is much closer and more in agreement with published material, but I don't think much of anything in this thread is official unless otherwise indicated. What you guys have written is extremely creative and if it's published material, I'd love to know where it was published. If it's not, then I'd love to pick your brains for ideas... The only published information about Zilgaro are from the ECS, PGtE, and Dragonmarked books (working from the best of my memory), as well as the Dragonshard articles.
Szat 06-15-07, 04:27 PM	Alex - I wouldn't disregard anything, part of being a DM is the ability to own and use a creative license. I just may disagree with you ;). I'm suprised there hasn't been a book released that details Zilargo, considering it's a nation of intrigue and spies and black ops, it would strike me as a highly player friendly environment. I suppose Wizards is controlling the flood of supplements, in order to squeeze as many years as they can out of Eberron. But I'd rather see Zilargo detailed as opposed to Sarlona. Then again, I wouldn't mind having the Mror Holds or the Lhazaar Prinicipalities detailed either. I suppose I'll have to wait. What you've all posted here is great and hopefully I'll have some stuff posted in the coming weeks as I prepare for this Zilargo game. I'm a little concerned, I'm a capable DM and I've been told that I'm better than most, but I haven't really tried my hand at complex political and social intrigue. I figure though, if I don't challenge myself then I'll always end up running the exact same games!
Nived 06-15-07, 06:09 PM	Stratagem Where the Karrns are often seen playing Conqueror (See 5N p. 102) in the dusky corners of their shadowy taverns, the Zils enjoy Stratagem - in many aspects, the two games are comparable, but only the most sharp-minded of non-Zils would be able to engage in this chesslike game, where conquering is replaced with conspiracy, secret, intrigue, and scheme. This is a game of illision, magic, and strategy! --- More to come. Feel free to add, as you see fit! You know, this is probably an odd place for this rant I'm about to go on, and honestly. No slight to Stratagem... but why do we always have to create an odd otherworldly games for fantasy characters to play. You know like how we have conquerer instead of chess. Why can't it just be chess? "Because Chess is from our world and it does not belong in theirs," you say? Open Dragonmarked, there stands a dwarf playing a game of chess with some gnomes (on the official WotC Chess board no less!). Open Faiths of Eberron and turn to the Soveriegn Host section, the holy symbol of Olladra is a domino. Now besides being fun to stack up and tip over dominos espcially actual dominos with pips denoting numbers on the side (like the 5/4 domino depicted as Olladra's symbol) are used in games. So we have chess and dominos (though there are various games that can be played with dominos). Why do we need different games? Sorry that's been sitting in the back of my head for awhile.
Splendide 06-15-07, 07:50 PM	Probably because if you have chess, you'll have famous Karrnathi chess players going up against a Warforged called Deep Blue
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 06-15-07, 07:58 PM	Its what the creator of star trek called 'nesicary dumbness' like alien food being blue and what not. Chess is real, even mundane so we jazz it up, give them a different game, and use a different word to make it seem exotic while knowing at the core that conquest, Stratagem and chess are all basically the same test of strategy and that a blue hotdog from Arnterise IIIV will still be fried gristle and raccoon.
gensuke626 06-15-07, 08:30 PM	You know...while I get the feeling that a simple game like Chess (Not saying chess is easy to play, but the basic rules are pretty easy to pick up) would exist amongst the Zil, somehow I get the feeling that the Gnomes of Zilargo would be more taken with games that are similar to Settlers of Catan or Risk. I also see the Gnomes playing Stratego. I mean, the rules are very simple, and a lot of Stratego involves careful placement and mis-direction. What do you think Zil theatre and dance would be like? Drawing parallels to Inda leads to very interesting images of Gnomes in light robes, facepaint, and large golden head-dresses. I think I like the idea of a Gnomish dancer with mudra (hand positions)described in the Natya Shastra.
ryanroyce 06-15-07, 10:10 PM	Alex - I wouldn't disregard anything, part of being a DM is the ability to own and use a creative license. I just may disagree with you ;). I'm suprised there hasn't been a book released that details Zilargo, considering it's a nation of intrigue and spies and black ops, it would strike me as a highly player friendly environment. I suppose Wizards is controlling the flood of supplements, in order to squeeze as many years as they can out of Eberron. But I'd rather see Zilargo detailed as opposed to Sarlona. Then again, I wouldn't mind having the Mror Holds or the Lhazaar Prinicipalities detailed either. I suppose I'll have to wait. What you've all posted here is great and hopefully I'll have some stuff posted in the coming weeks as I prepare for this Zilargo game. I'm a little concerned, I'm a capable DM and I've been told that I'm better than most, but I haven't really tried my hand at complex political and social intrigue. I figure though, if I don't challenge myself then I'll always end up running the exact same games! Kinda off-topic, but I think that a good package for a Zilargo book would be "Lands of Intrigue: Zilargo and the Mror Holds". Since having seperate books for each of the remaining twelve nations (minus the Five Nations) is a bit much to hope for, six books covering two nations apiece (or four books covering three apiece) would be feasible, I think. If a third nation was to be added to this book, what should it be? Back on topic, I don't think the Trust is as prone to lethality as its reputation implies. Rather, I see the Trust as being so good at the espionage racket that they usually can stop an undesireable scheme before it gets to Step Two. For instance, through analysis of the current political climate in the elemental binding industry, the Trust notices that Jesten ir'Phargold, a clever and ambitious gnome, has gone as far up the bureaucratic ladder as he can legitimately go. If he wants to advance further any time soon, something will have to happen to one of his superiors. They investigate Jesten and discover that he has recently hired a particular string quartet from House Thuranni to play at his daughter's birthday party. The Trust, being the Trust, knows that this band was involved in the assassination of a prominent Mror exporter seven months previous. Further investigation reveals that Jesten later recommended the band's services to his superior thrice-removed, Rynnic Jurisicol. With this information in hand, the Trust drafts and delivers two brief missives. One, to the Thuranni band, pays them a "cancellation fee" and politely warns them to stay out of Zil politics for their own good. The second goes to Jesten, politely informing him that the Trust knows he's "being a bad boy" and he better start "behaving" or else they'll send him to "time-out". No disappearances, no show of force, just two simple warnings delivered early enough to show that they're not nearly as clever as they think they are. If Jesten persists in his attempts to advance illegitimately, the Trust will step up their response accordingly until he gets the message or they finally do have to "disappear" him.
Szat 06-16-07, 03:52 AM	Ryanroyce - Though I'm tempted to agree. The concept of 'The Trust' is written and designed as a morally ambiguous organization. The written information indicates that 'The Trust' excuses any of it's shadier moral and ethical qualms by saying the ends justify the means. The organization itself isn't involved in petty crime and small complaints, but on a grander scale of espionage and incidents which alter the political or economic landscape within Zilargo. I think 'The Trust' is fully capable and actually actively engaged in 'Black Ops' to remove problematic foreign dignitaries and other individuals who pose a threat to the Zilargo monopoly on Elemental Binding and, in a vastly more general sense, Zil Gnomes in specific. Say that a expedition was being prepared to a section of Xendrik thought previously undexplored. The Zil Gnomes, secretly had already discovered the particular temple complex and found schemas on the wall. I think 'The Trust' would first try to switch out the maps with a good strong forgery, and failing that would stop at nothing to prevent that adventuring group from reaching it's destination. At least that's how I saw the organization... Also, I definately agree with your mock-up for the rest of the lands in Eberron. I'd definately by a "Lands of Intrigue: Mror Holds, Zilargo & The Lhazaar Principalities"
From_Khyber 06-16-07, 10:50 AM	You know, this is probably an odd place for this rant I'm about to go on, and honestly. No slight to Stratagem... but why do we always have to create an odd otherworldly games for fantasy characters to play. You know like how we have conquerer instead of chess. Why can't it just be chess? What you're basically asking is, why make my game more exotic and unusual, at all? Allow me to explain. While I've got nothing against chess, I would find it a bit vague and anticlimatic for the gnomes of Zilargo to play, seeing as how it's a game that (almost) everyone is able to play. With the minds of the Zils being notably sharper than most of us (I'm inclined to say 'all of us', but I don't like to get flamed, so I won't), I found it logical for them to spend time on playing games that are require notably sharper minds than simply chess. I think you misunderstood me on the "this is a game for the PCs"-part. You could of course concoct your own rules for Stratagem so the PCs could play it, but would you take out a chessboard in the middle of a D&D-session, if your PCs chose to engage in a nice game og chess? Hopefully not. Stratagem is, without doubt, meant to be a nice flavour-image for your players, when they enter a Zil tavern, and discover a table where gnomes are playing this magical, mysterious game. Use it if you like the idea, and don't if you dislike it. I created this thread, so that everyone could throw in their ideas and thoughts, concerning Zilargo and its inhabitants - not to debate why everyone should throw in ideas that make the world more mystical and extraordinary. So if you don't like the ideas that have been posted here, simply don't use them, instead of ranting on about why they have been created. In that way, we all prevent these troublesome explanations, that eventually will result in off-topic debates and discussions. "Because Chess is from our world and it does not belong in theirs," you say? Erhm, basically yes. Am I not allowed to have that opinion? Cars from our world don't fit into Eberron as well, so I don't use them. As far as I can see, nothing is wrong with this, but sorry if I have executed injustice towards cars or chess :( Now, if we could please get back to topic ;) (If your speculations still have not been satisfied, I'll gladly elaborate furtherly, but PM me in that case, so that this thread won't be ruined. Thanks) On Zil Hobbies, Pastime, and Entertainment, Part II Theatre Gnomes are known for their great use of Prestidigitation and other illusionary effects, and their plays are heavily influenced by this. Grand shows of colourful illuminations, vivid images, and awe-inspiring performances, that would make the major theatres of Sharn pale in comparison, can often be enjoyed in Zilargo.
Nived 06-16-07, 11:19 AM	*shrug* I dunno, I just enjoy the mental image of people (particularly old men) sitting outside on a stoop or street corner (or tower balcony in Sharn) and playing Dominoes in Breland and probably Zilargo. Is this something intricately tied to Gnomish culture? Nah, but it seems to be something I always see when I'm down south, in my head its just associated with warm weather. Maybe they're playing muggins or 42, maybe they're working with double six, or double nine... or some configuration of we don't use. Also remember not all gnomes would be well off. This simple game of probability and chance, combined with a little stratagy and betting... might well apeal to the common working class gnome.
From_Khyber 06-16-07, 11:42 AM	*shrug* I dunno, I just enjoy the mental image of people (particularly old men) sitting outside on a stoop or street corner (or tower balcony in Sharn) and playing Dominoes in Breland and probably Zilargo. Is this something intricately tied to Gnomish culture? Nah, but it seems to be something I always see when I'm down south, in my head its just associated with warm weather. Maybe they're playing muggins or 42, maybe they're working with double six, or double nine... or some configuration of we don't use. Also remember not all gnomes would be well off. This simple game of probability and chance, combined with a little stratagy and betting... might well apeal to the common working class gnome. And by suggesting Stratagem to be a game often played by gnomes, did I thereby exclude chess and domino? Certainly, this was not my intention. Just because I didn't mention these games, doesn't mean I eliminated their existence in Zilargo, Sharn, or any other part of Khorvaire. Stratagem is merely one of many games. I must honestly admit that I fail to see the incorrectness in suggesting the existence of other games than chess and domino. But as I've mentioned before, if you don't like, don't use it. Simple as that.
ryanroyce 06-16-07, 12:08 PM	As a side note, chess/conquerer in my Eberron uses the Byzantine (http://www.chessvariants.com/historic.dir/byzantine.html) variant (aka round chess). It's somewhat exotic, yet I don't have to come up with my own rule set.
ryanroyce 06-16-07, 12:22 PM	Ryanroyce - Though I'm tempted to agree. The concept of 'The Trust' is written and designed as a morally ambiguous organization. The written information indicates that 'The Trust' excuses any of it's shadier moral and ethical qualms by saying the ends justify the means. The organization itself isn't involved in petty crime and small complaints, but on a grander scale of espionage and incidents which alter the political or economic landscape within Zilargo. I think 'The Trust' is fully capable and actually actively engaged in 'Black Ops' to remove problematic foreign dignitaries and other individuals who pose a threat to the Zilargo monopoly on Elemental Binding and, in a vastly more general sense, Zil Gnomes in specific. Say that a expedition was being prepared to a section of Xendrik thought previously undexplored. The Zil Gnomes, secretly had already discovered the particular temple complex and found schemas on the wall. I think 'The Trust' would first try to switch out the maps with a good strong forgery, and failing that would stop at nothing to prevent that adventuring group from reaching it's destination. At least that's how I saw the organization... Also, I definately agree with your mock-up for the rest of the lands in Eberron. I'd definately by a "Lands of Intrigue: Mror Holds, Zilargo & The Lhazaar Principalities" The point I was trying to make was that if the gnomes have to resort to violence to solve a problem, then it means they have failed in their own eyes. Violence is a last resort, not because of any moral qualms the Trust doesn't have, but because of their own racial pride.
gensuke626 06-16-07, 05:59 PM	On Zil Hobbies, Pastime, and Entertainment, Part II Theater Gnomes are known for their great use of Prestidigitation and other illusionary effects, and their plays are heavily influenced by this. Grand shows of colourful illuminations, vivid images, and awe-inspiring performances, that would make the major theaters of Sharn pale in comparison, can often be enjoyed in Zilargo. I like this, I think it's a good start, but It doesn't tell me enough about Zil theatre. The mental images I get from this is something close to Ziegfeld Follies and other 'spectacle' style shows. I'd llike to present an expanded idea about Zil theatre and get a critique about it. If I put in something that doesn't make sense, tell me and we can tweak the idea. Zilargo Performing Arts The gnomes of Zilargo are well known for their innate aptitude with illusory magic, and it is this aptitude that gives the gnomes the abilities to put on the greatest shows in Khorvaire. Balladry The simplest of the Zilargo performing arts, the reciting of Ballads is both a source of information and entertainment in Zilargo. Along with the musical accompanyment, a particularly skilled gnome may craft images to illustrate the story. Ballads are typically historical recountings or parables. Traditional Drama Though not well known for their dramatic works, the Gnomes of Zilargo have cultivated a particular form of Acting. Costumes typically begin as plain white sets of clothing and a white-half mask. As characters are introduced and revealed, the gnomes use simple quick changes or Prestidigitation to alter the coloration on the masks and clothing. Along with the principle actors in a given scene, a small chorus typically moves in the background, providing narration or stylized movements to indicate where a scene takes place (For example, the chorus would quickly mill about to indicate a meeting along a busy street, and they would fight amongst themselves to indicate a scene on a battlefield.) Ghost Sound and Dancing Lights, along with stylized movements provide every sort of special effect from a wizard's Magic Missile, to Miracles and Acts of Nature. Standard mechanical effects are also employed, such as the use of trap doors, easily moveable props and scenery and colored backdrops. A traditional Gnome play is said to be 3 acts, each consisting of 4 scenes, with a 13th scene inserted at the beginning or end, or placed in the middle of act 2. During this 13th scene, the Chorus will explain the roots of a conflict or how the conflict affects the world after it is done, or if placed in the middle, it typically reveals something integral to the 3rd act. Contemporary writers use the traditional structure as a guide and construct plays of varying length, often omitting the 13th scene. Many traditional dramas are historical in nature, either recounting how the Gnomes won freedom from the Hobgoblins, or retelling a great story of Intrigue from years long past. Some intrigue stories have multiple variations, mostly due to the secretive nature of the gnomes. Some stories never have their truth revealed, while others maintain variations that are simply popular, with some more accurate retellings being dropped in favor of more popular and entertaining stories. Traditional Comedy The traditional comedic scenes of the gnomes are based on the dramatic structure, and always involve long, complicated and often absurd webs of intrigue. Typically, these are performed on small stages in market places and other areas where commoners gather. In a Comedic play, there is no chorus, but rather a pair of narrators. The pair is always a male, representing the Traveler, and a female representing Olladra. The narrators begin by setting up the story, and they watch the actors as the play progresses. Between scenes they discuss what had just happened and the important events that the audience needs to know, allowing those who arrived after the play had begun to catch up and understand the rest of it. Acting and stories are improvised by the performers as the play goes along. Characters, however, are set roles that a gnome learns inside and out to allow him to improvise well. The standard archetypes are: The Greedy Old Man, The Forgetful Scholar, The Young Lovers, The Moronic Wind-bag, The Boastful Coward, The Overreacting Maid, and the Hobbies. The Hobbies specifically refer to any character that doesn't fall into any other category, and are typically illiterate, slow-witted oafs who can barely speak. The name Hobbies comes from the Gnomish word for the group, which itself is derived from their name for Hobgoblins. A comedic play is usually done in 4 long scenes, with a 5th "Take it or Leave it" scene that is typically a non sequitur or an interlude in which the actors comment on some sort of political issue of the times. The 5th scene is always used and if it is 'left out', the Narrators typically make a comment about it at the end of the show and put on their own scene. Costumes are similar to those in a Dramatic play, but the masks are precolored and set into a certain shape to correspond to a certain character. For example, a Hobbie's mask will always have large, close-set eyes and a flat stubby nose while the Coward's mask will always be shaped with a longer than normal nose and a furrowed brow. As with Dramatic plays, Dancing Lights and Ghost Sounds are used to represent magical effects. The Spectacle A form of theatre that became popular during the Last War, with it's roots in the earliest days of the gnomes, the specatcle is the most easily recognized as 'Gnomish Theatre'. The Spectacle has no real story connecting it's scenes and is not unlike a contained circus. Illusion effects, music, acrobatics, dance, and physical comedy are all performed within the modern spectacle. A more recent development within the spectacle is a growing series of scenes called the "Espionage Scenes". The two main characters are unnamed, but one is a Brelish Dark Lantern, while the other is a Royal Eye of Aundair. The two spies compete with each other for documents, and generally try to injure and out wit the other. The scenes are done primarily in mime, with Ghost Sound filling in for certain sound effects. Originally there was a 3rd spy, a member of the Trust, also competing for the same prize, but the creators removed the gnome representitive, explaining "If we left him in there, he'd always win. Let's give the 'Humans' a chance!"
Splendide 06-16-07, 10:32 PM	On the subject of Gnomish theatre, I would also expect it to be heavily influenced by, or make frequent reference to the traditions of, elven theatre, given that the gnomes are a major seafaring race with centuries-old trade links to Aerenal. And that isn't even accounting for House Phiarlan's established entertainment network. I'd also add that I see contemporary gnomish theatre being an eclectic blending of different theatre traditions, with wads of intercultural references crammed into every scene. As an additional art form, I'd think raw illusions would be a great way to go, as they allow an insane amount of abstraction. Wouldn't you pay to watch a three-dimensional iTunes virtualiser (keeping in mind that it will look 3d and more than just light) accompanied by good music?
Twiggly the Gnome 06-16-07, 11:01 PM	Here are a few of the things I have as a part of my Zilargo - Spirits of Zilargo Dragonroost and the surrounding region are home to the premier producers of cider (apple liquor) and perry (pear liquor) in Khorvaire. These two potables are the preferred accompaniment in Zil cuisine, cider for heavy dishes and perry for lighter ones, and can be found anywhere that serves authentic ethnic Zil food. The high alcohol cider known as applejack is rarely consumed by the Zil, but is produced for export to the Mror Holds, where it has become fairly popular. Watch Your Head The buildings in Zilargo tend to have high ceilings because of the nations warm weather, so they have little trouble accommodating persons larger than gnomes. Doorways, on the other hand, are a different matter. The doors to private residences are always built with people of shorter stature in mind. For public buildings there will usually be a small door at the front of the building and a larger one in the back. It is said that this is done to maintain an aesthetic consistency in the streetward façade of all buildings, but many suspect that it is also a subtle hint to the gangly folk to mind their place while in Zilargo. A Gnome’s Best Friend In most of Khorvaire the most popular pets are the various breeds of dog and cat, but not so among the Zil. That role is almost entirely filled by a breed of domesticated fox commonly known as the zilfox. These creatures have the loyalty exhibited by dogs and the personal autonomy seen in cats. Their popularity is due in no small part to the natural ability of gnomes to communicate with burrowing mammals, making the zilfox a natural companion for a gnome. http://webpages.charter.net/dracotaurean/foxes.jpg
Splendide 06-17-07, 12:14 AM	I'd go with Argofox myself. Zil everything seems a bit funny. Also, cuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuute
Nived 06-17-07, 02:50 PM	Hey Twiggly what the heck are those things? I mean in reality? I've never seen a species of fox that looked like that. Or dog for that matter.
gensuke626 06-17-07, 04:22 PM	On the subject of Gnomish theatre, I would also expect it to be heavily influenced by, or make frequent reference to the traditions of, elven theatre, given that the gnomes are a major seafaring race with centuries-old trade links to Aerenal. And that isn't even accounting for House Phiarlan's established entertainment network. I'd also add that I see contemporary gnomish theatre being an eclectic blending of different theatre traditions, with wads of intercultural references crammed into every scene. As an additional art form, I'd think raw illusions would be a great way to go, as they allow an insane amount of abstraction. Wouldn't you pay to watch a three-dimensional iTunes virtualiser (keeping in mind that it will look 3d and more than just light) accompanied by good music? the questiom is then, what is Aerenal theatre like? Edit- After doing some reasearch and doing a bit of thinking...Depending on whether or not Aerenal theatre has been defined, I can see the Gnomish theatre styles I described as being directly descended from them. I'm going to type something up and possibly post it later, but does anyone know if any examples have been provided for what "Traditional Aerenal Theatre" would be like?
Twiggly the Gnome 06-17-07, 04:31 PM	Hey Twiggly what the heck are those things? I mean in reality? I've never seen a species of fox that looked like that. Or dog for that matter. They really are domesticated foxes, the results of a Russian breeding experiment. When I found out about these critters I thought they'd be the perfect pet for gnomes. :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tame_Silver_Fox
Darth Syntax 06-17-07, 04:55 PM	the questiom is then, what is Aerenal theatre like? Cirque du Soleil crossed with No theater and a healthy dose of classical Greek tragedy I would imagine. Highly stylized, masked, acrobatic, ritual dramas with a surreal and dream-like quality. -- Concerning Violence The Zil understanding of violence is somewhat different from the Galifaran norm, and while the Zil abhor any and all forms of physical abuse as punishment, poisonings (be they fatal or otherwise) are not considered to be a form of violence and so are seen as socially permissible. Any high status Zil who wants to maintain their status for long will have an encyclopedic knowledge of poisons and keep antidotes about the house to prevent unnecessary unpleasantness. Poisonings are almost always highly directed affairs meant to either eliminate or dissuade a single individual from a particular course of action. The precision of poison use by the Zil is a matter of pride and indeed of honor. There are no unnecessary casualties, very little if any mess, and most importantly, society is not disturbed by periodic violence or warfare. The idea of publicly confronting a rival or challenging them to a "fair fight" is unseemly, uncouth, and highly dishonorable to the Zil, far better to kill someone without their even being aware of the threat as it minimizes fear and discord.
gensuke626 06-17-07, 05:18 PM	They really are domesticated foxes, the results of a Russian breeding experiment. When I found out about these critters I thought they'd be the perfect pet for gnomes. :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tame_Silver_Fox I want one! :eek: Concerning Violence The Zil understanding of violence is somewhat different from the Galifaran norm, and while the Zil abhor any and all forms of physical abuse as punishment, poisonings (be they fatal or otherwise) are not considered to be a form of violence and so are seen as socially permissible. Any high status Zil who wants to maintain their status for long will have an encyclopedic knowledge of poisons and keep antidotes about the house to prevent unnecessary unpleasantness. Poisonings are almost always highly directed affairs meant to either eliminate or dissuade a single individual from a particular course of action. The precision of poison use by the Zil is a matter of pride and indeed of honor. There are no unnecessary casualties, very little if any mess, and most importantly, society is not disturbed by periodic violence or warfare. The idea of publicly confronting a rival or challenging them to a "fair fight" is unseemly, uncouth, and highly dishonorable to the Zil, far better to kill someone without their even being aware of the threat as it minimizes fear and discord. I like this idea. It seems alittle backwards to me, but then again, these are fictional beings who live in a very different society from myself. Still the idea that it is much better to dispatch with someone quietly and quickly is an interesting idea. Cirque du Soleil crossed with No theater and a healthy dose of classical Greek tragedy I would imagine. Highly stylized, masked, acrobatic, ritual dramas with a surreal and dream-like quality. Oddly enough the idea I had come up with for what elven theatre would be like was a combination of Greek Chorus and Chinese Jingju with a few twists that only the elves would use. Basically, my Idea for Elven theatre was that they used a Chorus for narration as well as a symbolic represenation of the line between life and death, so when a Character dies, he would pass into the Chorus and if he returns in some fashion, he would step from the chorus. Chorus masks would be blank white slates while the masks of prominent characters would be more intracate and colorful, up to Undying Ancestors, whose masks would be made of Livewood and inlaid with Gold and Platinum Filligree and precious gems. The costumes would be billowy and are designed to allow complete freedom of movement while looking very difficult to move around in. The actors would also wear headdresses to represent how important a character is, and back banners to represent army sizes in stylized combat (For example, Actor A walks onstage with a single banner during a war play, and his opponent walks onstage with 3 banners, this indicates that Army B is three times the size of army A) Within an elven play, much of the stage combat would be stylized martial arts and acrobatics, demonstrating skill with weapons and dexterity. I think I can see the gnomish styles of theatre that I proposed growing out of a theatre style like this. At this point, if I want to keep working on this though, I'm going to have to decide how much of gnomish theatre is elven influence, and how much is the Gnome's own doing. (Which might be as difficult as sperating Japanese Noh from Chinese Nou)
Darth Syntax 06-17-07, 05:52 PM	Part of the idea behind the Zils' preference for quick and quiet solutions of "people" problems is to play up on their inherently secretive nature and also to experiment with a notion of honor that is tried to the greater good and to civil order. (Personally, I prefer this sort of behavior code and it dose not glorify unsubtle and overly disruptive action.)
gensuke626 06-17-07, 06:14 PM	Yeah. I can get behind that Idea....I just wanted to mention that it feels alittle alien to me...which really is a good thing...
Szat 06-17-07, 07:18 PM	Darth Syntax - That's almost exactly how I had envisioned the concept of Gnomish hostility. They're the perfect courtisans, playing nice and pretty to the face...all the while trying to gave leverage via information and blackmail... This is good, all these thoughts and all this input is clarifying how I want the society to run... Basically the concept for my campaign is to have the party be an elite sector of the 'The Trust'. Basically they're the ones that are sent over the borders to retrieve magic items from the vaults of Kundarak in Sharn or to assassinate a rogue gnomish scientist, or to retrieve valuable schematics for the latest version of the elemental airship. Stuff like that...
Darth Syntax 06-20-07, 03:02 PM	I guess growing up in a passive aggressive family of introverts who prefer to settle disputes with either debate, the playing of complex board games, or by elaborate (but often secretive) revenge has made this sort of society less alien to me. -- I hope to have a rough outline of the Korranberg dialect of Zilashtro (the Zil language) up soonish, so hopefully that will be of some slight interest.
From_Khyber 06-20-07, 06:58 PM	I hope to have a rough outline of the Korranberg dialect of Zilashtro (the Zil language) up soonish, so hopefully that will be of some slight interest. Can't wait! I'll be eagerly awaiting this :)
Nerdicus 06-20-07, 07:37 PM	Reading through this thread and I have to say that I love what is going on here! Gnomes rule, especially Zil gnomes!! My idea: Gnome sports. Srovinelli. A game of dexterity and wit. Srovinelli is like a cross between hacky-sacking, kung fu, and rugby. Two teams play on a feild of 5 foot by 5 foot squares, 4 wide by 8 long. Ech side has a four by four area. THe idea of the game is to move a small sac filled with sand, by means of kicking and kneeing it from person to and scoring by toassing it into the goalies circle at either end of the field. Only one person can stand in a square at any given time. Once you have the sack you are forced to stay in the square you are in and pass to team mat4e in order to move the sack forward. When you have the sac you have to keep it either in motion or balanced on a point of your body. When stopped you only have three seconds before you must pass or you get a foul. When in possession of the sack oponents can attempt to kick your feet away from it, or kick it from your feet, provided they do not step into your square. THe game starts in the court of the side that wins a coin toss. THey then try to move the sack into the oponents court by passing the sack form person to person, all hte while trying to keep the oponent from intercepting the passes and gaining control. Each team would have...6 players per side. one goaly, 2 defense and 2 offense. I ran out of time. But I think that is enough to get the idea of my game.
gensuke626 06-20-07, 07:57 PM	Reading through this thread and I have to say that I love what is going on here! Gnomes rule, especially Zil gnomes!! My idea: Gnome sports. Srovinelli. A game of dexterity and wit. Srovinelli is like a cross between hacky-sacking, kung fu, and rugby. Two teams play on a feild of 5 foot by 5 foot squares, 4 wide by 8 long. Ech side has a four by four area. THe idea of the game is to move a small sac filled with sand, by means of kicking and kneeing it from person to and scoring by toassing it into the goalies circle at either end of the field. Only one person can stand in a square at any given time. Once you have the sack you are forced to stay in the square you are in and pass to team mat4e in order to move the sack forward. When you have the sac you have to keep it either in motion or balanced on a point of your body. When stopped you only have three seconds before you must pass or you get a foul. When in possession of the sack oponents can attempt to kick your feet away from it, or kick it from your feet, provided they do not step into your square. THe game starts in the court of the side that wins a coin toss. THey then try to move the sack into the oponents court by passing the sack form person to person, all hte while trying to keep the oponent from intercepting the passes and gaining control. Each team would have...6 players per side. one goaly, 2 defense and 2 offense. I ran out of time. But I think that is enough to get the idea of my game. A very interesting game indeed...I like where it's headed, but I think the "5x5 squares where one man can stand in it" rule makes for a very difficult game. The obvious defensive strategy would be to place 1 man in each of the 4 mid squares in an attempt to block advancement of players. This would force all teams to develop the position of "Leaper" who can clear the 5 foot square and land safely in a square past the front line. Leapers would nessecitate the role of "interceptors" whose job it is to occupy a square before an opponent reaches it. I get the feeling that the 1 man square rule may bog down the games... I like the game, make no mistake, I just think that with the 3 second holding rule, the action would need to be frenetic, so perhaps do away with the squares, or alter it. Perhaps only 1 person can be in any given square per team. This would allow the sack to move back and forth across the field faster, and also allow the sack to turn over to each side more often. Then, what could be done is a "No physical contact" rule so, to steal the sack you must touch it and not your opponent. Just brainstorming on what might be changed. I like the idea you put forth, no doubts about it! Oh, but I have to ask...what happens when the sack touches the ground?
Nerdicus 06-20-07, 08:44 PM	I came to the same realization as you on this point. Here is my solution. THe one person per square rule only applies to the person who has the sack and the squares around him. hen the sack hits the ground there is a free for all to get controll again. If it is down for more then four seconds then there is a toss up. Byu that I mean the hack is tossed up for two players who then try to gain control and move forward. This game could also be played as one on one. Based off of the rules of badminton(sp?). Two sides devided by a low net. one person per side the goal is to get the hack down in the others square, but not to let it go out of bounds. First person to 15 and to win by at least 2 points win. THis is a game that a friend of mine made and we call it Hack fu. Borne out of bordome in the wnter, a rental house with a huge kitchen and two competitive guys with a love for hacky-sack.
gensuke626 06-20-07, 09:31 PM	Hack fu sounds interesting, but I think I read about it in a National Geographic some years ago...I think kids in South Korea played a similar game...basically a cross between hackey-sack and Tennis. Ok...the toss up rules makes a good deal of sense. The revised square rule, I like. It locks up 9 spaces at most, allowing at least 1 line where either team can advance. I think the game can function with that. I also see a given team of gnomes "Corner Keeping" when they have the sack in their side. 4 gnomes gather at a 4 point intersection so that the opposing team has no chance of retrieveing the sack. This gives their forwards time to set up on the far side of the field before a pass. So, I assume that when the sack is passed over people, when the sack lands, the first to claim it gains control of the square, and any in the square with him must immediately vacate it. Maybe increase hold time to 5 seconds to allow 2-3 seconds for the other players who may be in the square to vacate to the nearest empty square? Give a "Space Violation" penalty to any team who does not fulfill this requirement? (Or maybe keep it at 3 seconds hold time, but the count only begins when their square is cleared?)
Darth Syntax 06-20-07, 10:19 PM	A brief introduction to the Zil language with special reference to the Korranberg dialect Part I: General information about Zilashtro Zilashtro, commonly called Zil is the principle language (or group of languages) of the Zhilatiyaro language family, which is itself a sub-family of the Zil-Talen language macro-family. This macro-family includes most of the native languages of Zilargo and a substantial number of the languages of the Talenta Plains (including the major Talen languages spoken by houses Jorasco and Ghallanda). Like most members of this language family Zil is a polysythetic language (meaning that words encode a large number of meanings and contain substantial morphological marking) with productive noun incorporation (NI) and complex, polypersonal verbs. Essentially what this means is that a single, properly formed verb in Zil contains approximately the same linguistic information as a well-formed sentence in English. NI in Zil is of the compounding variety and serves as a means of transforming a transitive verb into an intransitive one. There are also several semantic and syntactic differences between an NI for and an no NI form, most of which have to do with the specific nature of the action. The verb also encodes various tenses (past and non-past), aspects (perfective, imperfective, habitual, and iterative) and moods (realis and irrealis). There is no morphological future tense in Zil. Instead the future is formed by a combination of the irrealis mood and the imperfective aspect. Zil is a predominantly ergative language although it does have some features of a split-intransitive language as well. In normal transitive clauses the agent of the action is overtly marked (rather than the patient) and the patient in unmarked . In most intransitive clauses, the subject is unmarked. Essentially, the subject of an intransitive clause, and the object of a transitive clause are marked the same, while the agent of the transitive clause is marked differently. However, there are some intransitive verbs in Zil that do not follow this pattern and their subjects can be marked either like the Agent (with the ergative case) or with the dative case. I'll explain the morpho-syntactic alignment of Zil more completely later on (with examples, I promise). Zil has a medium-sized case system and nouns decline for the following cases: ergative, absolutive, dative, genitive, ablative,vocative, and instrumental. Nouns also inflect for number (singular, dual, and plural) and gender (masculine, feminine, neuter, and inanimate). Word order in Zil is somewhat freer than it is in English although there are constraints. Zil treats the world order OVA (object-verb-agent) as the most basic and unmarked. The Sounds of Zil International Phonetic Alphabet is in []'s, english approximations are in italics. Consonants Plain Plosives: [p,b,t̪ ,d̪ ,c,ɟ,k,ɡ] p, b, t, d, ch, j, k, g Palatalized Plosives: [pʲ bʲ tʲ dʲ kʲ gʲ] all sounds are as normal, by followed by the 'y' sound as in yellow. The Russian name Pyotr, is a good example of [pʲ] Labialized plosives: [tʷ, kʷ] tw (as in twin), qu (as in quiet) Fricitives: [f,v,θ,ð,s,z,ʃ,ʒ] f, v th (as in thing), th (as in this), s, z, sh, g (as in genre) Nasals [m,n̪, ɲ] m, n, ny (as in canyon) laterals: [l,ʎ]: l, ll (as found in Iberian Spanish) glides [w, j] w, y (as in yellow) trills [r] r (but trilled as in Italian Vowels [I]i,e,a,o,u as in Latin, i (as in 'it') e (as in 'men') uh, aw/au -- Some basic, regular Zil verbs in citation from alassor: to breathe spiranor: to believe ilrenor: to love occamor: to question or be skeptical of bajjior: to beat (as with a stick) cuavor: to pour usiaor: to mix devior: to dance bazzior: to burn vedisior: to laugh mazior: to use chentor: to eat in a quick and artless manner, to stuff one’s face shenlior: to become nervous for apparently no good reason banilor: to bake svanor: to write princor: to go pezanor: to be foolish iolanor: to hold -- There is a lot more to come, including some basics of grammar, word formation, more pronunciation info and the like.
gensuke626 06-20-07, 10:35 PM	Umm...Good Work Darth? I mean...Um...Wow....I have a headache...I have enough trouble with Japanese :( Linguisitics is not me field of choice...but you used enough big words to convince me that you know what you're doing...
Revvecor 06-20-07, 10:40 PM	:clap:I am in awe so far. I can't wait to see what else comes forth next!
Darth Syntax 06-20-07, 11:44 PM	Umm...Good Work Darth? I mean...Um...Wow....I have a headache...I have enough trouble with Japanese :( Linguisitics is not me field of choice...but you used enough big words to convince me that you know what you're doing... I don't mean to utterly baffle people, it's just that many linguistics concepts are difficult to explain without using terms from some other field of linguistics. If there is anything that you would like clarified, I'll do my best and point you to some sources that might well do a better job that I could. So, any thoughts on what features you good people would like to see next? I can't yet write much in Zil as the lexicon is currently tiny,the grammar is but an outline, and the semantics aren't all there yet, but any ideas you have would help out immensely.
Splendide 06-21-07, 01:58 AM	I dunno about features, but certainly I would expect modern Zil to comprise a ridiculous number of borrowed words from other tongues, probably all Zil-ised. Also how will you explain Dwarven script for written gnomish? How about a phrasebook? Common: Good day, I would like to purchase copious amounts of ale, could you please direct me towards an approprate establishment? Zil: ???
Darth Syntax 06-21-07, 02:27 AM	Frankly I ignore the whole "gnomish being written in the dwarven script" bit as it is nonsensical in Eberron. The Zil script (as I imagine it) is distantly related to the old Dhakaani writing system (being as there is a historical connection here, whereas there is only a modern connection between the Zil and the Mror) and is calligraphic in nature. It looks a bit like the illicit love-child of Devanagari and classical Arabic calligraphy with Greek overtones. Really, given that the gnomes have been civilized far longer than the dwarves, it might be the case that Mrorish is written in a version of the Zil script. -- As to borrowing words, yes Zil is rather omnivorous in word borrowing. It not only borrows words, it hunts down whole lexicons and and brings them home to impress the relatives. Zil also tends to give birth to new words at an alarming rate. From the creation of a new word (possibly by some random cobbler in the Trolanport waterside) to it's entry in The Korranberg Dictionary of the Zil Language is usually less than a month. The Library usually prints a monthly supplement to the dictionary , detailing any new words that may have come into being. The Zil have no "language purity" hang ups partly because they refuse to standardize their language. To an outsider the people of Trolanport speak an entirely different (albiet clearly related) language from the people of either Korranberg or Zalanberg. To make matters "worse" if a Korranoi and a Trolanoi have a conversation neither of them will adopt the language of the other; they understand each other just fine, but it would be like someone who was speaking Venetian having a chat with a Catalan speaker and neither of them bothering to change languages. To the Zil, these different "languages" are seen as dialects, and they can keep up with things just fine. Foreigners tend to have a bit of trouble however. -- I've been working on the lexicon a bit, but until the grammar is a bit more hashed out, I can't really construct too many complex phrases. I can say "Ah! the cook burned the cake" Ai! essu bazzievana is valona and things of that nature, but I haven't yet worked out interrogatives.
Splendide 06-21-07, 02:40 AM	Frankly I ignore the whole "gnomish being written in the dwarven script" bit as it is nonsensical in Eberron. The Zil script (as I imagine it) is distantly related to the old Dhakaani writing system (being as there is a historical connection here, whereas there is only a modern connection between the Zil and the Mror) and is calligraphic in nature. It looks a bit like the illicit love-child of Devanagari and classical Arabic calligraphy with Greek overtones.In that case, maybe the dwarven script is being adopted for printed matter, due to its space-saving structure and relative simplicity. So poetry, laws and such would use Zil script, whereas work orders, accounting and other clerical things that need to be done fast and small are done in dwarven script. So as far as an uninformed outsider is concerned, Zil uses dwarven script.
Darth Syntax 06-21-07, 03:06 AM	That could work, I just don't really see what the Zil would use the dwarven writing system for anything other than bank account records and other financial documents (which might be all outsiders ever commonly encounter I suppose). -- Leaving the language aside for the moment, I would like to discuss hair styles. Although most Zil have rather dark hair naturally, it is rare for them to appear in public with their natural color. Hair dying (often by alchemical or magical means) is ubiquitous and often is done is startling colors. Color gradients are also common, and their was a vogue about 45 years ago for hair that resembled the tail-feathers of the male peacock. The physical style of the hair is also quite outlandish and often are supposed to evoke (like the color) the plumage of some exotic bird. At the moment, the many birds of paradise are stylistically favored. http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2005/11/03/bird_wideweb__430x327,0.jpg
From_Khyber 06-21-07, 09:03 AM	That could work, I just don't really see what the Zil would use the dwarven writing system for anything other than bank account records and other financial documents (which might be all outsiders ever commonly encounter I suppose). -- Leaving the language aside for the moment, I would like to discuss hair styles. Although most Zil have rather dark hair naturally, it is rare for them to appear in public with their natural color. Hair dying (often by alchemical or magical means) is ubiquitous and often is done is startling colors. Color gradients are also common, and their was a vogue about 45 years ago for hair that resembled the tail-feathers of the male peacock. The physical style of the hair is also quite outlandish and often are supposed to evoke (like the color) the plumage of some exotic bird. At the moment, the many birds of paradise are stylistically favored. http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2005/11/03/bird_wideweb__430x327,0.jpg http://www.newfreedownloads.com/imgs/5345-w400.jpg http://www.papageien.org/HJP/SP/deroptyus02_01.jpg http://www.avesint.com/images/rosie.jpg
eehamburg 06-21-07, 09:14 AM	The physical style of the hair is also quite outlandish and often are supposed to evoke (like the color) the plumage of some exotic bird. At the moment, the many birds of paradise are stylistically favored. Why do I suddenly get the impression of the gnomes running around like the Centauri of B5? especially with the hair?
Revvecor 06-21-07, 01:10 PM	So, any thoughts on what features you good people would like to see next? I can't yet write much in Zil as the lexicon is currently tiny,the grammar is but an outline, and the semantics aren't all there yet, but any ideas you have would help out immensely. 1)How about some epic poems of battles of ancient time between the gnomes and the goblin? (done in the Klingon style) 2)Gnomish names of common races around them, by this I mean that gnomes may not call a human a human or an elf an elf.
Darth Syntax 06-21-07, 05:36 PM	1)How about some epic poems of battles of ancient time between the gnomes and the goblin? (done in the Klingon style) You really want to read a poem about "The Glorious Manipulation of the Late-Dhakaani Civil Service so as to Bring about Gnomish Prosperity". or "The Minutes of the Gnomish Separatist Movement in dactylic hexameter"? Gnomes don't generally fight, they don't wage wars. They plot, they assassinate, they poison and they negotiate. Look at what they did when the early Galifarans came to conquer them; they offered terms of surrender which probably surprised the Galifarans so much that they didn't bother to read all the fine print and effectively handed Zilargo semi-autonomous status . 2)Gnomish names of common races around them, by this I mean that gnomes may not call a human a human or an elf an elf. This I can do. gnome: nyolme (zil is a cultural and national term, nyolme is the term of the species) human: ianzo elf: aure hobgoblin: othya dwarf: boc halfling: tala orc: auk half-orc: ubri half-elf: coravar Kalashtar: Kalashtar shifter: burse changeling: deviazan goblin: gan warforged: gvallo (also used for golems in general)
Revvecor 06-21-07, 06:51 PM	You really want to read a poem about "The Glorious Manipulation of the Late-Dhakaani Civil Service so as to Bring about Gnomish Prosperity". or "The Minutes of the Gnomish Separatist Movement in dactylic hexameter"? No, it was a joke admittedly a poor one. Its just that the idea of a gnome singing like a klingon made me laugh. I liked the of the names of the races.
Darth Syntax 06-21-07, 07:34 PM	I enjoyed the joke, so I thought I would respond with that Zil "epics" would be about. Admittedly not the most heroic of things. -- I'll be working on the grammar a bit today so I hope to have something useful up later on. -- On the topic of hair, yes the Centauri were of some small help in that department. Glad to see it wasn't totally opaque.
Revvecor 06-21-07, 08:04 PM	I enjoyed the joke, so I thought I would respond with that Zil "epics" would be about. Admittedly not the most heroic of things. Just in case there was confusion my comment about the joke being bad was about the bad joke i had made not the comment you made. I look forward to more aspects of gnomish.
Darth Syntax 06-21-07, 09:51 PM	I understood you; I thought your "bad" joke was amusing, so I responded in a (hopefully) eaqually terrible fashion. -- Some basics of the Zil case system At the moment the case system is still being worked on (I don't yet have the inanimate nouns worked out yet) but I'll present what I've got. Case Markers Neuter Gender Case Singular Dual Plural Ergative -n -no -la Absolutive - -o -a Ablative -te -to -ato Dative -ve -vo -ava Vocative -de -do -da Instrumental -us -as -li Genitive -o -o -o Example sentence: largato princavaina envesi 'I went away from the house' Feminine Gender Case Singular Dual Plural Ergative -m -im -lim Absolutive - -i -li Ablative -ti -ti -ta Dative -la -le -ale Vocative -sa -si -se Instrumental -cu -coi -ac Genitive -a -a -a Masculine Gender Case Singular Dual Plural Ergative -na -na -ano Absolutive - -a -o Ablative -ze -zo -azo Dative -re -ro -reo Vocative -za -zi -azi Instrumental -pe -bo -abo Genitive -o -o -o The Ergative Case In most cases the ergative case marks the agent of a transitive verb. In a transitive clause its role is largely syntactic. moira iolanavai alvona: My father's sister's son holds the book. alvo refers to the father's sister's son, and -na is the ergative case marker which indicates that alvo is the agent of the clause. Use of the Ergative in NI intransitive clauses When a verb undergoes Noun Incorporation in Zil, it becomes syntactically intransitive and thus the subject of said verb is usually realized in the absolutive case (it is unmarked). However, if a speaker wishes to emphasize the volitionality of the subject then the subject may take the ergative case. Similarly, if the speaker wishes to emphasize the semantic passivity of the subject, the dative case is used. Examples of NI and case marking. quanimoiravai envesi (Ergative): I book-read (of my own accord) quanimoiravai envo (Absolutive): I book-read (neutral) quanimoiravai ade (Dative): I happed to book-read/ I book-read, but without much interest. -- I'll do more with the case system in my next post, but I don't want to overwhelm the thread.
Splendide 06-21-07, 10:49 PM	The Three Brothers The Three Brothers is a folk tale of the Zil, originally recorded by Aia Andulan Korran, a tutor to children of the Korran family. The brothers are considered to embody the three traits most expected of young gnomes, while also creating a not entirely inaccurate stereotype of the character of the three cities. Additionally, scholars have defined a number of other allegories that they feel the brothers represent (popular currently is a theory that they are the three progenitor dragons), and new adventures of the three brothers are constantly created and recorded. While these are gnomish tales, any children tutored by a gnome are likely to have heard at least one tale of The Three Brothers. Trolan, the oldest brother, is depicted as a cheerful and charismatic young gnome, who is perhaps a little lazy. His strengths in the stories are his talent, and his ability to come up with an unusual and spontaneous solution to problems, while his weaknesses are his lack of application to self-improvement and his tendency to be easily distracted. Zolan, the middle brother, is depicted as a serious and earnest fellow, who is noted for his athletic and physical prowess. He's an expert at throwing rocks, climbing cliffs, and has a familiarity with all crafts. His strengths are his dedication to improving his skills, his fine attention to detail and his well-practiced manual dexterity, while his weaknesses are that he occasionally loses sight of the big picture, and is sometimes caught out for having a limited versatility with which to solve problems. Korran, the youngest brother, is quiet and observant, and is particularly known for writing down a large number of notes for future reference. He also carries a number of books and scrolls with him at all times, just in case - and it usually turns out for the best. His strengths are his wealth of knowledge and his thorough planning, while his weaknesses are that he is slow to react to new situations and is a bit over-reliant on book knowledge. Representing the qualities of talent, skill and knowledge respectively, the three brothers go on myriad adventures, with a different brother being the vital key to victory (or escape) in each scenario. The overarching lesson of the tale is that a clever gnome exhibits the traits of all three of the brothers, and learns to rely on his family no matter how different they may be, because one brother alone cannot do everything. ((Naturally, the bard class is the best means of exhibiting your achievement of that balance))
taski 06-22-07, 03:38 AM	I hope I'm not too late for the Zil hair discussion. I basically agree with DS and the others. Fanciful, colorful hair. I like the bird of paradise analogy... So here is my Gnome of Paradise! http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1406/586208063_a9dd77f3f2_o.jpg I guess we could also start discussing fashion. I can see them making use of cravats and elaborate collars. Since I think it gets pretty warm in Zilargo, they probably use light-weight fabrics, like cotton, linen and silk. Any other thoughts?
okaynowa 06-22-07, 12:18 PM	occamor: to question or be skeptical of Good one, Darth. ;) An Observation on Gnome-Changeling Relations --as reported by Phex, sage-professor of comparative culture at Morgrave University "Personally, I have found Zilargo the least stressful place for a visible changeling to visit. Our numbers are greater in Sharn and the Lhazaar Principalities, but citizens of the former assume I am an off-duty criminal or courtesan and to be avoided, and residents of the latter assume I am an off-duty criminal or courtesan and to be offered employment. By contrast, the Zil assume very little, are much more polite when making their inquiries, and generally feel less threatened by changelings. "Indeed, the gnomes are in a position to appreciate intellectually a changeling's natural talents with little fear that those talents could be used against them. A changeling would require the conditioning of a champion contortionist, the training of a professional magewright, and the recall of a bard just to survive a day impersonating a Zil gnome worth impersonating. Despite the folktales in the Five Kingdoms, such changelings are no more common than dragonslayers. Even if such a changeling could be found, the Zil prefer to conduct their intrigues themselves-- that's the whole point of the intrigue. Contracting the services of some theoretical super-spy to learn a neighbor's secrets would be like hiring a thoroughbred racehorse merely to eat your dinner for you. "Thus, when the changeling arrives in port, the gnome sees not an infiltrator, nor a rival, but a respectable (or even admirable) counterpart from a parallel league-- a top player in a different sport. The changeling's ability to alter his face and skin is no more startling than the gnome's own magical abilities, and accepted as a skill, not a party trick. If anything, the average Zil is much more interested in a changeling's natural facility with langauge. I recall one customs official in Trolanport who kept me at the docks two hours longer than my fellow passengers, not because of any legal suspicions, but because he realized that he had found in me at last an audience for his personal collection of Goblin-Khoravar bilingual puns."
ArcTan 06-22-07, 03:37 PM	You know, this is probably an odd place for this rant I'm about to go on, and honestly. No slight to Stratagem... but why do we always have to create an odd otherworldly games for fantasy characters to play. You know like how we have conquerer instead of chess. Why can't it just be chess? "Because Chess is from our world and it does not belong in theirs," you say? Open Dragonmarked, there stands a dwarf playing a game of chess with some gnomes (on the official WotC Chess board no less!). Open Faiths of Eberron and turn to the Soveriegn Host section, the holy symbol of Olladra is a domino. Now besides being fun to stack up and tip over dominos espcially actual dominos with pips denoting numbers on the side (like the 5/4 domino depicted as Olladra's symbol) are used in games. So we have chess and dominos (though there are various games that can be played with dominos). Why do we need different games? Sorry that's been sitting in the back of my head for awhile. ...Because it's fun? Since Conqueror has never actually been described in detail AFAIK, for convenience I tend to just refer to it as though it were chess with chess pieces and using names from chess jargon, with a few minor alterations. And mainly it gets referred to as a metaphor. ("In a game of Conqueror the pawns are always the first to move." "In Conqueror, even the sacrifice of all one's major pieces means nothing if one can achieve checkmate." Etc.) Of course, a more detailed description of Conqueror with Eberron-inspired names and concepts for pieces and game rules would be a lot of fun. Apologies if one already exists and I missed it.
ArcTan 06-22-07, 03:43 PM	One note is that the 1/day dancing lights and ghost sound probably have some place in Gnomish culture. As an unusual ability -- a showy magical effect with little practical use in day-to-day life that can *only* be done once per day -- it may be that, for instance, Gnomes have a custom of emphasizing a point, making an oath, or sealing a deal by firing a dancing light into the sky and making their utterance come from there with ghost sound. The native term for this practice might translate to "throwing your voice", with some confusion with the Human use of this term to mean ventriloquism. Throwing one's voice in this sense is quite the opposite -- not a means of deception, but a very clear and bold statement, like firing a salute, that you are publicly announcing something. Symbolically the fact that one can only ever throw one's voice once a day means that statements sealed by this action are taken very seriously, and to "throw one's voice in vain" is seen as a major cultural taboo. Throwing one's voice to make an off-color joke or insulting remark would be an incredibly provocative action in Zilargo. There could be nuances to this -- sending the dancing light into the sky to make a public proclamation, sending it towards an individual to make a personal promise, hovering it above one's own head in order to make a binding personal commitment to oneself, hurling it towards the ground to make a statement of shame and renunciation, flinging it "through" someone's chest as an act of provocation or accusation.
Darth Syntax 06-22-07, 04:49 PM	The Glorious Surrender of Zilargo: Or "I for One Welcome our New Karrnathi Overlords" The Formation of the Triumvirate For much of it's modern history the land of Zilargo was actually three separate republics each centered on one of the old city-states. Although open-warfare between the republics was extremely rare, the rivalry was intense. The hidden conflicts between the republics often lead to assassinations, inciting rebellions and other such act. It seemed that there was nothing that could make the republics band together for mutual protection. Then Karrn the Conqueror came to power. The pre-Zil repubics were well informed concerning the campaigns of the northern Warlord and came to the inescapable conclusion that should Karrn or some other decide to take Zilargo, there was very little the republics could do alone to stop such a conquest. In -1973 YK the heads of the three republics signed a complex treaty that created the state of Zilargo and formed the Triumvirate as it's ruling body. The Most Elegant and Enlightened Republics of Zilargo would remain independent for nearly a thousand years until they were absorbed into the growing Galifaran state. The Peace of the Mountains When Galifar I made his attempt to conquer Zilargo, he entered the country from the north, by way of a rather narrow mountain pass. Thinking that he and his forces would be capable of taking the Zil (who to this day have no standing military force of any kind) without much effort, Galifar was much surprised to see, about halfway through the pass, a whole host of unarmed gnomes engaged in what appeared to be the preparations for some great festival. At the head of this great gathering of gnomes was a long, high table at which sat the Triumvirate, surrender papers in hand. So astonished were the Galifarans by this, that they thought they were seeing some grand illusion. However, no such magic was detected and finally Galifar was convinced enough to sit down with the Triumvirate and accept their surrender. The Treaty that Galifar and the Triumvirate signed was a complex one, granting Zilargo autonomous status in the Galifaran state in exchange for substantial tax revenues and unrestricted access to the various industries of Zilargo. Zilargo maintained Zil law and custom, was not required to appoint hereditary nobility nor contribute soldiers to the army; instead they provided equipment, ships, wealth, and clerks. The Zil also were instrumental in helping the Galifaran state further develop its own intelligence services and the influence of the Trust and the Zil in general is most heavily seen in the Dark Lanterns of Breland (who have sense become somewhat hampered by issues of trying to maintain ethical standards) and the Dark Cabinet of Karrnath (which has become even more ruthless and secretive over the years). -- okaynowa, I really like you view on zil-changeling relations. It makes a great deal of sense. and, although she already knows this, taski's "gnome of paradise" is spot on in my view.
gensuke626 06-22-07, 08:19 PM	Wow...This thread is Epic. Very Nice Darth. Sadly I'm skipping your language posts for the moment, gotta study my Japanese so I can pass the exam next week...But I really like the bit you wrote about who Zilargo managed to remain independant through the ages. Very nice.:D
Revvecor 06-22-07, 08:58 PM	Since Conqueror has never actually been described in detail AFAIK, for convenience I tend to just refer to it as though it were chess with chess pieces and using names from chess jargon, with a few minor alterations. And mainly it gets referred to as a metaphor. ("In a game of Conqueror the pawns are always the first to move." "In Conqueror, even the sacrifice of all one's major pieces means nothing if one can achieve checkmate." Etc.) Of course, a more detailed description of Conqueror with Eberron-inspired names and concepts for pieces and game rules would be a lot of fun. Apologies if one already exists and I missed it. This isn't Conqueror, but the origin of Chess "Chaturanga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaturanga)" seems to fit the overall theme of this thread. ( Especially if you like the concept of elephants being part of the gnomes history.);)
DragoonDarkfire 06-22-07, 09:29 PM	The Zil and Religion Written by Riliton Uri, a philosopher of human cultures. We Gnomes were never ones to accept something completely on the basis of faith. We constantly build grand illusions and I've heard countless philosophers in my league speak of religion as being the greatest illusion man have ever weaved. True even I myself am not a particularly faithful man. I'd rather trust my own skill and intellect in order to overcome a challenge rather than pray to some distant god who would most likely ignore my pathetic plea. Yet again and again I have seen my fellow Zil swear by the host, the six, the flame or whatever deity they seem to associate with most whenever their chips are down or they find that they have been bested at their own game. And let me tell you that no Zil likes to be bested at his own game. In truth I think that we Zil perhaps distrust the gods more then we discredit their existence. After all, we Zil hate two things above all. One I have already mentioned, and the other is being left in the dark, and aren't Deities are the greatest secret of all? There is no doubt that the Clerics and Paladins of Thrane have a power that guides them, and it is apparent that this power is not like the power of wizards and sorcerers. So the question is what is divine magic? There's no doubt it exists, the question is where does it come from? What force grants this power to people of faith? It's something that no one, not even we Zil can answer and it has left us bitter about the humans who can come up with the answers to all of this so easily. One can easily associate being able to cure a disease with an ideal that has a name attached to it. But we Zil need more then simply an association with some random god to explain the powers of others. All that I know for sure is that sometimes our quest for knowledge may lead us into areas best left alone and ignored...
Darth Syntax 06-23-07, 03:24 AM	Further Cases The Absolutive case the absolutive is fairly unremarkable in Zil. It is the most unmarked case morphologically, syntactically, and semantically. Generally speaking it marks the subjects of intransitive verbs and the direct objects of transitive verbs. The Ablative Case This case encodes the basic meaning of "away from" but also is used to mark certain syntactic roles. In semantically passive clauses the agent is marked with the ablative rather than the Ergative case, and the patient can be expressed in either the absolutive or the dative case depending on the exact role of the patient in the clause. Examples of the standard Ablative: evze princavai is marliro "the cart moves away from me" Examples of the passive: moira svanazo evzo (patient in the Absolutive) "The books were written by we two" moirava svanazo evzo (patient in the Dative) " The books happened to be written by we two (but the authors are not important) -- I would generally agree with Dragoon about the Zil take on religion but I don't think that the Zil would ignore the great question of "What is the nature of divine magic and all that". Indeed I imagine that they are some of the most dedicated scholars on this front. It is not seen as sacrilegious to question the nature of the gods or to pry into the inner working of divine magic; rather it is almost a sacred duty to ask such questions.
Revvecor 06-23-07, 08:03 AM	I would generally agree with Dragoon about the Zil take on religion but I don't think that the Zil would ignore the great question of "What is the nature of divine magic and all that". Indeed I imagine that they are some of the most dedicated scholars on this front. It is not seen as sacrilegious to question the nature of the gods or to pry into the inner working of divine magic; rather it is almost a sacred duty to ask such questions. I could be wrong, but I interpreted the statement All that I know for sure is that sometimes our quest for knowledge may lead us into areas best left alone and ignored... to mean that that more knowledge you gain the more problems you with face. An example of this is Adam ad eve eating fruit from the tree of like. This means that knowledge of anything will be bad for you. When they had knowledge god punished them with illness, injury, and death. A phase like "ignorance is bliss" could be derived from this story.
Darth Syntax 06-23-07, 01:22 PM	I can see that interpretation being valid, but I would imagine that the Zil would find the phrase "ignorance is bliss" to be somewhat insulting, and at the very least a rather sad commentary on how people view knowledge. While it is true that knowing something can be dangerous, harmful, or frightening, being ignorant is a far worse state. It is far better to know all and be damned than to be ignorant and happy.
DragoonDarkfire 06-24-07, 12:53 PM	I can see that interpretation being valid, but I would imagine that the Zil would find the phrase "ignorance is bliss" to be somewhat insulting, and at the very least a rather sad commentary on how people view knowledge. While it is true that knowing something can be dangerous, harmful, or frightening, being ignorant is a far worse state. It is far better to know all and be damned than to be ignorant and happy. The statement was more a word of caution than an actual word of ignorance is bliss. For example, a Zil gnome might have no problem examining the ancient origins of the Host or the flame or even the Dark Six. But any gnome who's knowledgeable in religion should know that most - if not all - worshipers of the daelkyr or the Dragon Below are insane don't you think it might be better to play it safe when acquiring said information? After all what good is knowledge when you're too insane to use it?
Revvecor 06-24-07, 01:32 PM	I can see that interpretation being valid, but I would imagine that the Zil would find the phrase "ignorance is bliss" to be somewhat insulting, and at the very least a rather sad commentary on how people view knowledge. While it is true that knowing something can be dangerous, harmful, or frightening, being ignorant is a far worse state. It is far better to know all and be damned than to be ignorant and happy. I agree, I was merry trying to rephrase a previous post.
okaynowa 06-26-07, 12:04 PM	I'll confess-- I prefer unhappy gnomes. Bad gnomes. Rumplestiltskin and Yallery Brown creeped me out more than any other fairy tale when I was young, so of course they were the ones I sought out again and again. In Poortvliet and Huygen's classic work, I glommed onto the menace suggested by the cryptic Siberian gnomes more than any whimsical notes about herbalism and animal husbandry. So when I saw the illustration for the spriggan in the Fiend Folio, I thought-- "Wicked gnomes who turn into giants? Rock on!" Spriggans have it both ways: trickster and thug, magician and monster. So of course, when I read about the delicate intrigues of Zilargo culture, its clean streets and coiffed librarians, my first thought is, "How can I introduce some feral, twiggy bad-asses in there to threaten things?" The solution is to say that they've always been in Zilargo-- they just haven't always been called spriggans. The spriggan as youthful rebellion Flacko Gemmerthumb is an apprentice shelver at the Thurimbar Scriptorium. He spends countless hours a day running around at the scribes' beck and call, after which he sleeps in a common room with four other apprentices. Flacko and his roommates were all out-maneuvered for the more coveted slots at the Library of Korranberg. Their careers have been set back five years and they've barely even started. On the darkest night of the month, Flacko and his colleagues sneak out of the Scriptorium and down to the Thurimbar docks. Cloaked in rags and soot, they use their magic in practiced coordination to ambush lone foreigners along the waterfront. As soon as they knock their terrified targets into the water, the gnomes scatter, laughing cruelly and calling out "Spriggan!" to one another. The spriggan as defamatory fabrication It would be a great embarassment (and a potential capital offense) for a goblinoid patrol to lose in a skirmish with a ragged bunch of "jungle rats." A loss becomes excusable, however, when the hobgoblin sergeant explains that the creatures they thought were gnomes suddenly cast off their spells, revealing themselves to be towering, sour bearded giants. Faced with such foul, devious magic, the patrol strategically withdrew from the giants' reach. Subsequent patrols that return in defeat only offer more support to the initial sighting. It cannot be mere coincidence that attacks by these mysterious "spriggans" are most commonly reported where gnome territories border hostile communities. The spriggan as deniable asset A company of adventurers is bound for the Howling Peaks, there to seek ancient Dhakaani ruins. Twenty miles outside of Reven, they are beset by a band of what they believe to be bearded goblins-- until the creatures suddenly turn twelve feet tall and start thrashing them. The adventurers fend the creatures off with sword and spell, but they are hard pressed. They are nearing the limit of their endurance when the giants suddenly bound away, dwindling as they run. The adventurers soon realize why the battle turned: in the chaos, the creatures have made off with all the company's food. An hour and a half later, the wounded and exhausted party is hailed by a patrol of militia gnomes, led by a warrior who identifies himself as a "trustee." He offers the party healing potions, and says, "Yep, we've had trouble with some nasty spriggan bandits preying on travelers between here and the mountains. We'd better accompany you the rest of the way. Biscuit?" The spriggan as margianalized other He used to be called Nool Praprawen, but the Praprawen family of Quesk disowned him when he refused to channel his burgeoning warlock powers into an acceptable profession like exaction. He stole just to prove he could, and gambled away the spoils, wandering from place to place until it was too dangerous for him to stay in the Three Cities. Then he wandered the jungles, withdrawing deeper and deeper into the darkness until there was no one left but himself and The Shadow. He knows secrets now, secrets about the illusion of size and the truth of strength. He shares these secrets with the outcasts that gather to pray with him, the other gnomes for whom the Triumvirate's little games of power have failed. His followers call him a holy one, but the suspicious villages nearby whisper that the whole lot of them are spriggans. The spriggan as acceptable exception Oshden Sivis had a plush life ahead of him. His Dragonmarked father had secured him an apprenticeship at the Library of Korranberg, his mother had bequeathed him an interest-earning share in the Trolanport shipyards, and rumor had it that Trettya, an up-and-comer at the Notaries Guild, was asking about his eligibility. A plush life indeed, but a life scripted clear through the fifth act. The day before he was supposed to report to the Library, Oshden Sivis vanished. In his place his shocked parents discovered a scruffy, unkempt creature which announced its intentions to seek its fortunes in Sharn, armed with nothing but the clothes on its back and the spell scrolls tucked into its belt. The next morning, the local paper would report that Oshden Sivis had officially vanished. Trettya was devastated, but what could she do? Even when spriggans have names, they don't have addresses, don't pay taxes, and don't marry up-and-comers at the Notaries Guild. The spriggan as pre-Zil artifact Their numbers have dwindled to an all-time low, but they have lost none of their might. According to the stories they have handed down from uncle to nephew since the Age of Demons, they have Khyber in their bones, Eberron in their flesh, and Siberys in their blood. They were the first race to walk the world, and the evidence is in those poor students who followed. The ogres mimicked their great size, the halflings their dexterity, but neither could learn both. The goblins stole the secrets of their metal and stonecraft, but could not learn their magic. Only the gnomes were wise enough to offer their children in payment, and patient enough to learn the secrets completely. The eldest of them have retired to Thelanis, and the rest rarely meet as they once did. Since the rise of the Dragonmarks over the last thousand years, fewer and fewer gnomes offer their sons for fostering, or their daughters as brides. There are whole cities of gnomes who have never even seen a spriggan, or have, but did not understand what they saw. But ignorance of tradition is no excuse, and the first ones will claim what they want, just as they always have. The Instant Rules-Lite Spriggan I never fret when my Fiend Folio is out of reach-- a perceived spriggan is as good as the real thing to a harried player character. I just follow these steps: Take pre-written gnome antagonist(s), redress them in dirtier armor, give them matted and knotted hair and beards, sprinkle liberally with leaves and bird bones. Give them the ability Spriggan Size (su): As a swift action, the gnome turns into a dirty great spriggan. Its space and reach become 10 ft, and it gains a bonus on melee damage rolls equal to its total hit dice. Thanks to the wonder of magical compensation, all other stats (attack bonus, AC, speed) remain the same. Approach the party with gnomish stealth and misdirection, then ambush them with a spriggan-sized beatdown. To really freak the party out, flee when the spriggans are winning. Spriggan player characters? That's a whole 'nother matter.
Nived 06-28-07, 05:14 PM	One note is that the 1/day dancing lights and ghost sound probably have some place in Gnomish culture. ... Reading this post lead me to imagine Dancing Lights being used in social occations. Imagine a Gnomish wedding. When the Bride and Groom leave the alter instead of being pelted by rice they are instead are welcomed into their new life by walking down a path of glorious swirling colored lights cast by their friends and loved once. Graducations, parties, ect. And when you're just trying to find something in the dark and can't find your candle.
Tharkan 01-30-08, 01:36 PM	:bump:
Loki5654 01-30-08, 04:31 PM	Since the thread has been bumped, I think I'll add my Eberron Gnome Joke: "The ancient Aerenal elves have a saying, 'Si vis pacem, para bellum' which means 'If you seek peace, prepare for war'. I much prefer the Zil version, 'Sivis pacem, para vellum' which means 'The gnomes seek peace, prepare for paperwork!'"
Rekko 01-30-08, 09:14 PM	The title of this thread is evoking since the gnome is now sent to the monster manual.
Tharkan 01-31-08, 11:01 AM	The title of this thread is evoking since the gnome is now sent to the monster manual. Wh-what? :confused:
Syltorian 01-31-08, 12:57 PM	Wh-what? :confused: 4th Edition: Gnomes are in the Player's Handbook no longer. They are replaced by Tieflings and Dragonborn. You'll find this in several news items, as well as in their their video (Youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UqFPujRZWo), also now on the main D&D website). Don't worry. You'll learn that you can still kill them, since they're in the Monster Manual. There is some damage control, however, as they'll give a Gnomes a PC-race write up for the incurable grognards who have to play gnomes and cannot see the evident superiority of tieflings and dragonborn. Yeah. The title of the thread is rather ironic now. No love for Gnomes, indeed. Fortunately, I am optimistic enough that Sivis and Zilargo will stay gnomes. Except that next to Darguun and Droaam, we now have a third 'monster' nation.
Tharkan 01-31-08, 02:41 PM	4th Edition: Gnomes are in the Player's Handbook no longer. They are replaced by Tieflings and Dragonborn. You'll find this in several news items, as well as in their their video (Youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UqFPujRZWo), also now on the main D&D website). Don't worry. You'll learn that you can still kill them, since they're in the Monster Manual. There is some damage control, however, as they'll give a Gnomes a PC-race write up for the incurable grognards who have to play gnomes and cannot see the evident superiority of tieflings and dragonborn. Yeah. The title of the thread is rather ironic now. No love for Gnomes, indeed. Fortunately, I am optimistic enough that Sivis and Zilargo will stay gnomes. Except that next to Darguun and Droaam, we now have a third 'monster' nation. Wha-wha-what?! Why this incongruous adjustment? I mean, really, why? Sure, tielfings are all right (never heard of dragonborn before), but how do they fit into Eberron as a PC-race? And what is to happen with the gnomes? (I assume that these questions are abundantly debated elsewhere, so perhaps it's wrong of me to bring them up here, but I'm truly dumbfounded) Wow, I don't know what to say. However, I do think that the fate of the gnomes holds relevance in this context so: any thoughts?
Syltorian 01-31-08, 03:38 PM	Wha-wha-what?! Why this incongruous adjustment? I mean, really, why? Sure, tielfings are all right (never heard of dragonborn before), but how do they fit into Eberron as a PC-race? And what is to happen with the gnomes? (I assume that these questions are abundantly debated elsewhere, so perhaps it's wrong of me to bring them up here, but I'm truly dumbfounded) Wow, I don't know what to say. However, I do think that the fate of the gnomes holds relevance in this context so: any thoughts? Sorry to have been the bringer of bad news. Why the incongruity? Because Tieflings are cooler, apparently. How they fit into Eberron is something you will most likely have to wait to find out, until about 2009 and the 4e Eberron Campaign Setting. From what I have heard, the tieflings are not descendants of demons/devils either, but rather of people who made pacts with evil outsiders. Still, for Eberron - Demon Wastes, Ohr Kaluun in Sarlona, followers of the Dark Six, something along the lines of Diraan Bastian from the novels could work. Dragonborn, now, they're more difficult because of the way dragons work in Eberron, and the fact that we can't just put them in Argonessen and conveniently forget about them until you get to level 20. There has been some discussion on page three of the Eberron in the Face of 4e (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=970925&page=3) thread, so it might be best to move there and leave the tieflings and dragonborn out of this discussion, since we can't leave them out of Eberron completely, it seems. Regarding the gnomes and returning on topic: While I don't like the idea of 4e, and the decision to relegate the gnome to the Monster Manual, I do not think it will impact much on the setting. There is some vague feeling to be overcome that leads people to focus on things in the PHB rather than the MM, and it is a feeling I get too, but it can be overcome. After all, we already have an entire nation ruled by a race that's not in the 3.5 Player's Handbook - Darguun. And the goblins are fairly popular, considering there was another thread just like this one dealing with them. Darguun has its history, culture, politics, and goes to great length to make sure that the goblinoids are not just fodder. Likewise, the city-goblins are given, if not much, then at least some treatment and place in the culture; goblinoids can be considered player races in Eberron. And even at this point, there has not been any less information about them than there has been about Zilargo or the Talenta plains, inhabited by PHB races. And, like Darguun, Zilargo does not need its inhabitants to be in the PHB: these nations are interesting in their own right. So, to reiterate what I said before: I do not like 4e and do not wish to defend it, but on this point at least, I'm not worried. I trust the designers not to mess up the setting. That the planned advancement of the setting by 2 years was shelved is a sign that they are listening to our complaints and opinions (makes me feel sorry for the poor FR fans - you should see what they did to that setting...), so I am sure the gnomes will not be kicked out of the ECS either.