Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tzarevitch 10-03-06, 11:33 AM	Does anyone know if WoTC is ever going to publish anything substabtive on the Empire of Dhakaan and the modern hobgoblins? It's just that they keep publishing more and more on Xen'Drik, the lost empire over ybeyond the sea, but almost nothing on the Empire of Dhakaan, the lost empire whose ruins are rext door or right below us or on the goblinoids in general. Much of modern Khorvaire seems shaped by the Empire of Dhakaan but very little official is ever written about it. To make matters worse, there is little written on modern Dhakanni culture or even modern Darguul culture. Hobgoblins have a lot of potential in the campaign as PCs, allies and adversaries but they so far have received almost no love. There have been a couple of articles,1 or 2 feats and a page or so of write-up in Races of Eberron and that's it! The blasted drow have little or no real impact on Khorvaire much less Xen'Drik yet they are the subject of constant write-ups and options. I see now that something is being published on Sarlona as well. I mean come on. Darguun is right next door to Breland. With it's political instability and warlike nature the hobgoblins are a clear and present danger. Their culture (particularly the Dhakanni) is clearly unlike anything the humans are familiar with yet they keep getting overlooked. I don't mean to rant or begrudge publishing books on other regions (I have bought and enjoyed every one of them) but it is baffling to me why the goblinoids and Dhakaan/Darguun keeped getting overlooked. Please take this post as a cry for WoTC and/or KB himself to push for a book on the Hobgoblins of Khorvaire with explanations of their current and ancient culture and cool options for play. Tzarevitch
Fabius Maximus 10-03-06, 11:41 AM	I certainly hope there will be a Dhakaan sourcebook. Hellcow works on a 'secret' project, maybe it's that. Goblins, especially hobgoblins, always strike me as the perfect race for a "monster" civilisation, because they are disciplined.
Nived 10-03-06, 12:51 PM	Have you read the Dragonshards "Heirs of Dhakaan" and "Strikeforce Dhakaan"? Some gobliny goodness contained within. As for an entire book on goblins? Well I'd love it but I'm not sure it'd be a huge seller. I think you could get more miles out of a Ruins of Khorvaire or Lost Civilizations of Khorvaire talking about the Orc inhabitants, the goblins, the early gnome and halfling settlements, the first attempted elven colony, and the origins of the dwarves.
Nuclear_Buddha 10-03-06, 01:19 PM	The blasted drow have little or no real impact on Khorvaire much less Xen'Drik yet they are the subject of constant write-ups and options. When drow stop being sexy and hobgoblins start, you'll see more stuff on Dhakaan.
Kreistor1 10-03-06, 02:03 PM	You shouldn't see more on Dhakaan. The current sourcebooks all apply to the modern era, and do very little to flesh out the past. There is no modern Dhakaan. That doesn't mean they won't flesh out a few bits and pieces here and there. The SoX did add some previously unknown history for the Warforged. But it isn't deep and in depth. The Dhakaani Empire is a plot device. It allows you to create the tombs and dungeons needed to play the game. Fleshing out the history of the Dhakaani empire risks violating the history each of us have created for the Dhakaani dungeons and buildings we created in our stories. So, no, I don't think you'll ever see a serious attempt by WotC to fill in the Dhakaani empire.
eehamburg 10-03-06, 02:09 PM	When drow stop being sexy and hobgoblins start, you'll see more stuff on Dhakaan. Something about a sexy hobgoblin in lingerie that makes me want to throw up ... bad image ... bad bad image... ugh :yuck:
Tzarevitch 10-03-06, 03:11 PM	Have you read the Dragonshards "Heirs of Dhakaan" and "Strikeforce Dhakaan"? Some gobliny goodness contained within. I have read them. They are a nice start, but I am sorely disappointed with the lack of followthrough. They make such great antagonists but little effort has been made to flesh them out more. As for an entire book on goblins? Well I'd love it but I'm not sure it'd be a huge seller. I think you could get more miles out of a Ruins of Khorvaire or Lost Civilizations of Khorvaire talking about the Orc inhabitants, the goblins, the early gnome and halfling settlements, the first attempted elven colony, and the origins of the dwarves. That would be fine by me. Lost Civilizations of Khorvaire would be a great idea. Also don't forget the early dwarven kingdom that the Dragonshards article mentions. Tzarevitch
Nived 10-03-06, 04:17 PM	You shouldn't see more on Dhakaan. The current sourcebooks all apply to the modern era, and do very little to flesh out the past. There is no modern Dhakaan. Actually there are modern Dhakaan. The Dhakaan! There are currently three great 'tribes' of Goblins. The Ghaal'dar who are currently in power in Darguun, the Marguul an alliance of bugbear dominate clans in Darguun, and yes, the Dhakaan who sit in their hidden caverns fighting over who gets to lead the Dhakaan. Its suggested if the Dhakaan ever got their heads on straight they'd be able to wrestle power away from the Ghaal'dar in Darguun.
Kreistor1 10-03-06, 05:19 PM	That isn't even close to what the OP is asking about, Nived. He wants details on the Dhakaani Empire, not the barbaric remnants.
eehamburg 10-03-06, 05:34 PM	That isn't even close to what the OP is asking about, Nived. He wants details on the Dhakaani Empire, not the barbaric remnants. Not completely true ... if you re-read the OP .. it says ... Does anyone know if WoTC is ever going to publish anything substabtive on the Empire of Dhakaan and the modern hobgoblins? Therefore since Modern is listed there .. Nived's comments do apply.
Just another user 10-04-06, 02:58 AM	And the actual Dhakaani tribes are not barbaric.
Giarc 10-04-06, 04:28 AM	Something about a sexy hobgoblin in lingerie that makes me want to throw up ... bad image ... bad bad image... ugh :yuck: C'mon! You know after a long dungeon crawl and a few ales, you'd be tempted.;)
goblin_pride 10-04-06, 05:15 AM	I think with the combination of Darth Syntax's work on the Dhakaani language, the dragonshard articles and the brainstorming of so many capable DMs, isn't there enough potential material to flesh out the old Dhakaani empire? I would look at it as a conglomeration of Tokugawa era Japan crossed with ancient Rome, plenty of real world material out there on both of those. Perhaps a new thread for brainstorming the Dhakaani empire into a working model would be a good idea, but that's just my two cent's worth, I am after all, JUST a goblin. and Hobgoblins aren't sexy, it's the little gobbos that is
eehamburg 10-04-06, 09:33 AM	C'mon! You know after a long dungeon crawl and a few ales, you'd be tempted.;) It would take a LOT more than a few ales .... a lot more ... maybe a keg or TWO
Nived 10-04-06, 10:44 AM	Goblin babes aren't that bad. As Thunt has shown us in Goblins: Life through their eyes. (http://goblinscomic.com) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/Nived/GobChick1.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/Nived/Gobchick2.jpg Course Thunt can even make a Bugbear look harmless and cuddly. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/Nived/Bug.jpg Aw poor little bugbear
Nuclear_Buddha 10-04-06, 02:13 PM	It would take a LOT more than a few ales .... a lot more ... maybe a keg or TWO Aw c'mon, they've got that "old-world" charm. I hereby apologize for starting this.
eehamburg 10-04-06, 04:46 PM	no need to apologize ... it has taken a life of its own :D
glug 10-06-06, 10:10 AM	Goblin babes aren't that bad. As Thunt has shown us in Goblins: Life through their eyes. (http://goblinscomic.com) Thank you so much for this. I've now read the whole thing, and I'm waiting for more. It's awesome.
Darakhoranon 10-06-06, 03:34 PM	@Nuclear_Bhudda: At least your dreaming about hobgoblins/goblins and not a certain female cleric of the Silver Flame... Read about the "Forgotten Freedom" on this board if you don't know what I'm talking about.
eehamburg 10-06-06, 03:49 PM	At least your dreaming about hobgoblins/goblins and not a certain female cleric of the Silver Flame... That is just sick.
ArcTan 10-07-06, 05:05 AM	Something about a sexy hobgoblin in lingerie that makes me want to throw up ... bad image ... bad bad image... ugh :yuck: Hobgobs don't actually take the Cha penalty that D&D often likes to stick on "ugly" races (not that I like the whole low-Cha = ugly stereotype anyway, but whatever.) They're described as being tall, lanky and feral-looking, but not big and overmuscled like Orcs. Sure, the skin is discolored (from a human perspective) and the teeth are fanglike and the eyes are slit and animal-like (from a human perspective), but none of that would prevent a hobgoblin pinup girl from potentially being sleek, sinuous and sexy (probably in a dangerous, feral way, but some guys go for that). C'mon, we're geeks. We watch geek movies with science fiction aliens and things. Don't tell me you really think that orange skin, scary eyes and big teeth prevent someone from being hot.
ArcTan 10-07-06, 05:08 AM	I'd like to see a special on Orcs, Goblinoids and Monstrous Humanoids. Going with the "Races" theme, it'd be something like "Races of the Lost Empire" or "Races of Savagery" -- which goes with the whole pulp-era racist-humans-of-Khorvaire attitude we, as characters in the game, are supposed to have toward these species. They are thematically linked as warlike, powerful species who were important at one time and now live on the fringes of civilization, and people who knew nothing about the setting would totally buy this as the book on "brutish bad guys" and end up being fascinated by the rich, flavorful and sympathetic descriptions these races' culture and history would hopefully get in the text. In fact, I'm surprised that WotC hasn't put up a new, core Races Of supplement paralleling Races of Stone and Races of the Wild for orcs and goblinoids -- something like Races of Savagery or Races of the Horde or whatever. What with WoW-mania and people being more interested in orcs and goblins than ever before, it'd be a great semi-revisionist, semi-glorying-in-bad-guy-ness take on these cool yet overlooked races of D&D canon.
AkumaDaimyo 10-07-06, 05:38 AM	Actually the comment about the drow not having much influence on Khorvaire is pretty false. If you will remember in Magic of Eberron just exactly where did the gnomes learn to bind elementals from? Thats right. The drow. The "Firebinders" tribe of drow to be exact. Without the gnomes stealing their secrets from the Firebinders there wouldn't be things like airships and some other devices that are currently in use thanks to binding elementals. But there should indeed be a sourcebook on the Dhakani Empire.
goblin_pride 10-07-06, 07:15 PM	A book on the goblinoid and orcish races would go over well but it couldn't exactly have just the Eberron-specific material. However, if they put out Races of Empire in addition that WAS Eberron-specific, that would be wonderful, they could add all sorts of very specific campaign material, but where do they draw the line, how many sourcebooks does it take to kill a setting? I prefer to prowl the boards, nicking ideas from here and there to make my own goblins in my campaign much more vibrant, there's something about creating a portion of the setting yourself that makes it fulfilling. To be honest, I think that's part of the reason the dhakaani empire was mentioned alot and fleshed out a little. This is still a game where creativity is important, and adding your part to the world itself is part of the fun of the whole thing as a player or a DM. and for the record, I play a goblin and wrote most of the material our DM uses when dealing with the Dhakaani in our game, because I, like Keith Baker left lots of room for him to add to the material I wrote for him.
OzyBurrfoot 10-07-06, 11:45 PM	The current sourcebooks all apply to the modern era, and do very little to flesh out the past. Actually we have confirmation on a Last War sourcebook, so a book on the ancient Dhakaan doesnt seem to far off.
AkumaDaimyo 10-08-06, 04:05 AM	A Last War sourcebook would be great. Can help the characters have some reason to be together if they fought in The Last War but its cool to actually know the specific battles they fought in or to have a source book to run adventures set in the Last War then fast forward to current year in the campaign setting.
Adhevan 10-08-06, 04:38 AM	Actually we have confirmation on a Last War sourcebook, so a book on the ancient Dhakaan doesnt seem to far off. The Last War only ended 2 years ago, though. It's still pretty much the modern era.
AkumaDaimyo 10-08-06, 09:29 AM	Yes but the actual war went on a lot longer than a mere 2 years.
OzyBurrfoot 10-08-06, 11:04 AM	The Last War only ended 2 years ago, though. It's still pretty much the modern era. It may have ended 2 years ago, but it started over a hundred years ago.
Adhevan 10-08-06, 04:23 PM	That's still modern era. The Dhakaani Empire was thousands of years ago.
goblin_pride 10-08-06, 05:08 PM	That's still modern era. The Dhakaani Empire was thousands of years ago. two thousand years ago the generals began retreating into the mountains with their clans according to the storyline in the ECS and they've lived there ever since, so in theory, the empire still exists in the culture of the Dhakaani clans of goblinoids. Plus it was an empire that lasted for eleven thousand years, their history alone would fill a book. to draw a real-world comparison Rome was only an empire as we all think of it from about 40 BCE to 450 CE, and the amount of material you can dig up on Rome would fill libraries, think how much there would be if that empire had lasted an additional ten thousand five hundred years. The kingdoms of Pharoahs (upper and lower Egypt) ran through twenty one dynastic lines built huge numbers of monuments, temples and tombs and only lasted from Mene (circa 3850 BCE) to Cleopatra IX who died before the CE shift, another big empire in earth's history. Even if you take into account the Nubian kingdom that lasted beyond the pharoanic period in egypt alone, you still only extend the life of that empire to about 7-900 CE so Ancient Egypt still comes out under half the life of the Dhakaani empire. I personally thought it was a wonderful idea to give the greatest empire in the history of the world to the races that seem to have the shortest lifespan in most gaming worlds. But with gaming material you leave loose threads in the work so that inventive players and DMs can take that and let their imaginations run wild. I would love to see Keith write some material on the Dhakaani, but until he does, I'll continue to write material about them and turn the Dhakaani into a rich culture with a history that stretches back farther than even most elves can recall. But what do I know? I'm just a gobbo....
OzyBurrfoot 10-08-06, 08:38 PM	How do you call that modern? I'll admit it's more recent than the Dhakanni, but it's still history. All my point was that if they are willing to make a book that covers the time frame that starts a hundred years ago, and they've done region books like the Five Nations and Xen'drik, a Dhakan book could be done that discusses both the current goblinoids and their ancient predecessors. It's not unreasonable to suggest this.
Adhevan 10-08-06, 11:52 PM	How do you call that modern? I'll admit it's more recent than the Dhakanni, but it's still history. All my point was that if they are willing to make a book that covers the time frame that starts a hundred years ago, and they've done region books like the Five Nations and Xen'drik, a Dhakan book could be done that discusses both the current goblinoids and their ancient predecessors. It's not unreasonable to suggest this. For many of the non-humans still living in the 5 Nations, the Last War began after they were already adults. That is, there are people still alive who can remember a time before the war. That makes it modern era instead of the distant past. I personally think that a sourcebook on the Dhakaani Empire would be very interesting and is not outside the realm of possibility. I just think it's quite a stretch to say that a supplement on the last 100 years justifies a book on the ancient past.
Charles Phipps 10-09-06, 12:51 AM	That is just sick. Jaela lust is an Eberron meme all its own.
goblin_pride 10-09-06, 04:20 AM	How do you call that modern? I'll admit it's more recent than the Dhakanni, but it's still history. All my point was that if they are willing to make a book that covers the time frame that starts a hundred years ago, and they've done region books like the Five Nations and Xen'drik, a Dhakan book could be done that discusses both the current goblinoids and their ancient predecessors. It's not unreasonable to suggest this. how do I call that modern? I don't know if you've wasted time reading the ECS but Galifar was the empire that the last war was fought over and it was only founded about one, yes ONE thousand years ago. the Dhakaani retreated into the Seawall mountains three thousand years ago according to the canon thus far, that would put their retreat a full millenia after, yes AFTER the pyramids at Giza were built( real world timeframe). And that's after they were built, as in finished. Julius Caesar saw them 2500 years after they were built. a comparison of world war II versus the rise and fall of the roman empire may be a bit difficult for us to comprehend, but if you're able to think in terms of decades rather than months it may not be so hard to comprehend. You have to remember that the Elves, Dwarves and Gnomes deal with lifespans in the hundreds of years, that makes the history of the Dhakaani something from grandad's day or perhaps his father. the point is that it's all a matter of scale.
eehamburg 10-09-06, 09:25 AM	Jaela lust is an Eberron meme all its own. yes .. but does it really need to be discussed publicly?
Nuclear_Buddha 10-09-06, 09:30 AM	@Nuclear_Bhudda: At least your dreaming about hobgoblins/goblins and not a certain female cleric of the Silver Flame... Ack! Hang on, now, don't go putting words in my mouth. I was commenting on why the drow were getting attention and not hobgoblins. No personal commentary there. As for the second half of your comment, well, how could anyone be blamed for that? She DOES have crazy-high charisma. Hobgobs don't actually take the Cha penalty that D&D often likes to stick on "ugly" races (not that I like the whole low-Cha = ugly stereotype anyway, but whatever.) They're described as being tall, lanky and feral-looking, but not big and overmuscled like Orcs. Sure, the skin is discolored (from a human perspective) and the teeth are fanglike and the eyes are slit and animal-like (from a human perspective), but none of that would prevent a hobgoblin pinup girl from potentially being sleek, sinuous and sexy (probably in a dangerous, feral way, but some guys go for that). Good point, too. Allow me to add in a bit from the Heirs of Dhakaan (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040816a) Dragonshard. "The voice was soft yet harsh, filled with a smoky music." Sounds like she's at least supposed to be sultry. Hmmm... I think I'm still contributing to a threadjacking.
eehamburg 10-09-06, 11:50 AM	Sounds like she's at least supposed to be sultry I don't know ... still sounds like you got a thing going on for the Hobs ... :P
goblin_pride 10-09-06, 12:14 PM	I don't know ... still sounds like you got a thing going on for the Hobs ... :P At least he's not going all slack-jawed drooling over a freakin' 12 year old, C'mon people at least let her finish with puberty before burying her with innuendoes. And heirs of Dhakaan painted a lovely picture of a female Hobgoblin as being a dusky-voice siren that knows how to make a threat "touch that crown and I'll make you eat your fingers", now that's a landmine woman if I ever saw one
eehamburg 10-09-06, 12:29 PM	At least he's not going all slack-jawed drooling over a freakin' 12 year old, C'mon people at least let her finish with puberty before burying her with innuendoes. Some people need to grow up themselves first... Otherwise, they belong under Megan's law. And heirs of Dhakaan painted a lovely picture of a female Hobgoblin as being a dusky-voice siren that knows how to make a threat "touch that crown and I'll make you eat your fingers", now that's a landmine woman if I ever saw one Each of the Hobgoblin Dragonshards paints a wonderful picture of how to use them in a campaign. What amazes me is how it was never done before and how these races were always seen as just fodder. There should never be any fodder and each race should have a reason for existence and how it integrates with the world. Another reason why Eberron is so great. As far as a landmine woman ... I have met a few of them in RL that would make the one from the Heirs of Dhakaan shrivel in fear.
goblin_pride 10-09-06, 12:33 PM	As far as a landmine woman ... I have met a few of them in RL that would make the one from the Heirs of Dhakaan shrivel in fear. last one to Volaar Draal buys the drinks?
eehamburg 10-09-06, 12:41 PM	last one to Volaar Draal buys the drinks? You're on ...:pint:
Nuclear_Buddha 10-09-06, 01:02 PM	I don't know ... still sounds like you got a thing going on for the Hobs ... :P Son of a... I'm not going to be able to shake this, am I? :surrender
goblin_pride 10-09-06, 01:09 PM	Has anyone considered starting a thread of just Dhakaani clans and cultural notes for other players and DMs to nick and use in their own games? It wouldn't be the same as cracking the cover on a brand new book but it would give you a bit of work in progress access to something you could use. I'm always working at figuring out ways to make the culture stand out as a bit different, things like creamating bodies and establishing tombs that are funerary caches instead of final resting places (I haven't got the whole thing puzzled out on that one, but like I said, the empire is still a bit fuzzy)
ArcTan 10-09-06, 01:24 PM	Actually the comment about the drow not having much influence on Khorvaire is pretty false. If you will remember in Magic of Eberron just exactly where did the gnomes learn to bind elementals from? Thats right. The drow. The "Firebinders" tribe of drow to be exact. Without the gnomes stealing their secrets from the Firebinders there wouldn't be things like airships and some other devices that are currently in use thanks to binding elementals. But there should indeed be a sourcebook on the Dhakani Empire. That's like saying Third World sweatshops have a lot of "influence" on the United States, or Nikola Tesla had a lot of "influence" on Thomas Edison, or I have a lot of "influence" on the neighbor I suspect is stealing my cable. People getting rich by stealing from you and continuing to prosper and be happy while you're stuck in a continent full of ruins and monsters is not "influence". In fact, it's an argument *against* you having influence since, despite their best efforts, the horrible curse the Sulatar bestowed on the gnomes who stole their magic has not caused Zilargo and the rest of the continent of Khorvaire to break apart and fall into the sea.
eehamburg 10-09-06, 01:34 PM	Son of a... I'm not going to be able to shake this, am I? :surrender Oh ... we're just kidding with you ... relax.... it is all in good fun.... besides if you can't have good CLEAN fun with the hobs ... who can you? the Drow? That seems a bit masochistic. Jaela? that will line you up in jail. :D
goblin_pride 10-09-06, 04:10 PM	Oh ... we're just kidding with you ... relax.... it is all in good fun.... besides if you can't have good CLEAN fun with the hobs ... who can you? the Drow? That seems a bit masochistic. Jaela? that will line you up in jail. :D Besides, you ever seen a Hobgob woman, they look like longshoremen in dresses, think of the jests and japes as you walk into a tavern with that (I know they won't be snickering at her)
eehamburg 10-09-06, 04:31 PM	Besides, you ever seen a Hobgob woman, they look like longshoremen in dresses, think of the jests and japes as you walk into a tavern with that (I know they won't be snickering at her) I think ... not sure, but think ... that longshoremen are prettier ... just a guess mind you and I could be wrong ... but I don't think so.
Darth Syntax 10-10-06, 12:59 AM	Has anyone considered starting a thread of just Dhakaani clans and cultural notes for other players and DMs to nick and use in their own games? It wouldn't be the same as cracking the cover on a brand new book but it would give you a bit of work in progress access to something you could use. I'm always working at figuring out ways to make the culture stand out as a bit different, things like creamating bodies and establishing tombs that are funerary caches instead of final resting places (I haven't got the whole thing puzzled out on that one, but like I said, the empire is still a bit fuzzy) I've considered re-posting (with substantial editing and revision of course) some of the cultural information that made it's way inartfully into the original OHD thread. I have been working on the Dhakaani Empire for some time (although lately my mind has drifted off to other projects) and have fomulated what I think is a very interesting (and hopefully nuanced) empire. I would be very interested in seeing what the rest of you good people have come up with as your vision of the empire.
goblin_pride 10-10-06, 03:38 AM	I would be very interested in seeing what the rest of you good people have come up with as your vision of the empire. I've pretty much hobnailed (bad pun, I know) together a crossbreed of Tokugawa era japan, Roman empire and a bit of Assyrian/Babylonian influence to create something workable. I tend to focus on the culture before the laws and practices, for me it's more telling of an empire how they handle their dead and what they celebrate than what the penalty is for thievery and the like. I'd love to be able to post material on things like funerary customs and clan structures to help the rest of the Eberron gaming community. Who knows, maybe between the lot of us we can make something that'll have the folks at Wizards raising an eyebrow, neh?
eehamburg 10-10-06, 10:23 AM	Well .. give some details .. what are everyone's ideas about the Dhakaani Empire and its ruins and remains?
goblin_pride 10-10-06, 03:55 PM	I'll work on hammering out a bit more of the history this evening and hopefully be able to post something decent and workable by the end of the week. Basically, the way I've got it set up is very martial, the Hobgobs are the great generals, the bugbears are vicious glory-seeking combat monsters and the gobbos are farmers, the home defense and sometimes the soldiers in the field serving under goblin generals(most of the time subservient to the hobgob leaders, but not always). I like the concept of Goblins protecting the farmers, I can already see a Goblin general standing in front of a mass of hobgob generals pointing out that a farmer can feed an army, not the other way 'round.
ArcTan 10-10-06, 04:01 PM	Besides, you ever seen a Hobgob woman, they look like longshoremen in dresses, think of the jests and japes as you walk into a tavern with that (I know they won't be snickering at her) You ever actually seen one, man? I picture them looking like Klingon women from Star Trek, who are certainly scary-looking, but not exactly un-hot.
Giarc 10-10-06, 11:52 PM	I see the Dhakaani Empire as bound together by a common culture, not so much a strong, centrally-controlled state. The separate tribes could be made to work together, but only by the presence of strong leadership. These are the times the great projects are created, such as the Six Kings monument in Five Nations' Breland section. Without strong leaders, the tribes fell into civil wars, both minor and major. Outside forces attacking, though, would cause the tribes to drop their differences and deal with the threat. The elves moving into Valenar (the first time) and the Daelkyr War are two examples of this.
Darth Syntax 10-11-06, 02:06 AM	Some of my ideas concerning the Dhakaani Empire can be found mixed in with my discussion of OHD, but I might as well lay some of my thoughts out here; in what will hopefully be a more coherent fashion. -- Unlike Giarc, I concieve of the Empire as haveing been an exceptionally strong, very centralized state. The existence of 11,000 years of Dhaakani culture and politics in some form or another (discounting any of the history after the fall of the empire) would seem to be decent anecdotal evidence for the existence of a strong state. Indeed, my general conception in that the Empire was one of the strongest political entities to ever have been crafted by the mortals of Eberron. To a Dhaakani (of the old empire, not the modern ones) the whole history of Galifar would have seemed tragically weak and ineffectual. Very broadly speaking, the Empire was a buerocratic, meritocratic, state with a strong tradition of civic virture, political envolvment, and massive public works programs. Most of the government was composed of civil servants who were required to pass a complex series of examinations and tests. Much of what was measured was intellectual aptitute, pattern recognition, logic, language skill, and generall familiarity with the working of the government. The higher one's results on these exams ended up being, the more demaninding (and ultimatly better paying) you assigned carrier would be. Officially, the Empire was ruled over by two figures, the Empress, and the Noble General. The position of Empress was hereditary (and the position was always held by a female hobgoblin) and originally descended from the line of Hlaarai Dhakaan, the bard whose writings served as the political and intellectual basis for the empire. The General was generally chosen by his or her predicessor and was required, like any civil servant, to pass the varrious examinations. Most of the practical power of the state rested in the hands of the general, and most of the diplomatic and cultural power lay with the Empress. This division of power existed to prevent the Empire from becomeing the plaything of its rulers. The ultimate object of loyallty in the Empire was not the empress, the general, or even the figure of Dhakaan; rather loyalty was to be focused on the concepts of Law, and the State. This focus on the abstract ideas of the Law and the State lead to some practices which to the modern, post-galifaran, people of Khorvaire would seem strange and possibly deplorable. The government officially, both civilian and military, were charged with the defence of the empire, and were theorectically allowed to remove either the Empress and/or the General from power should they chose to act in a manner inconsistant with reason, wisdom , and the welfare of the state. More than 32 Empresses and 40 Generals were forcibly removed from power (usually assassinated or publicly exciuted) by perfectly legal means in the course of Imperial history. Such actions were seen as an unpleasant necessity by the citizens and officials of the empire, and generally only caused minor disruptions to the workings of the state. The legal branch of the Imperial government was considered to be the foundation of civilized society, and was often thought to be more vital to the workings of the government that the combined power of the Empress, the General, and the army. Every town of any size in the empire had a courthouse and magistrates, and the local people could generally rely on the impartiality of judges in cases, even disputes involving parties of wildly different social standings. The existence of many courts and varrious levels of oversite helped to ensure a fair and rational interpretation of the legal codes, and accordance with the Law. The ideal Dhakaani magistrate was one who had no pity, and no compassion in their professional capacity, and pleas for the mercy of the court were rare. The legal codes were supposed to be applied equaly to all citizens of the empire (and to all non-criminal slaves as well) and more often than not, magistrates did their job. This was partly out of professionalism, and partly out of a desire to maintain their position, for word soon got around when there was a corrupt or biased judge and who better than a judge to know that justice in the empire is not merciful? -- So concludes tonights installment of my view of the empire. Look forward to future installmensts dealing with Dhakaani cuisine, music (especially opera), philosophy, art, public works, mythology, and probably other things i can't think of at the moment. As always comments and the like are welcome. -DS
Giarc 10-11-06, 02:22 AM	Unlike Giarc, I concieve of the Empire as haveing been an exceptionally strong, very centralized state. The existence of 11,000 years of Dhaakani culture and politics in some form or another (discounting any of the history after the fall of the empire) would seem to be decent anecdotal evidence for the existence of a strong state. Heh, I saw the long timespan as evidence of a strong culture, one able to last between the leaders that unite the tribes to do the great works until the next ones appear. I like what you've done, though, Darth Syntax.
ArcTan 10-11-06, 02:26 AM	I see the Dhakaani Empire as bound together by a common culture, not so much a strong, centrally-controlled state. The separate tribes could be made to work together, but only by the presence of strong leadership. These are the times the great projects are created, such as the Six Kings monument in Five Nations' Breland section. Without strong leaders, the tribes fell into civil wars, both minor and major. Outside forces attacking, though, would cause the tribes to drop their differences and deal with the threat. The elves moving into Valenar (the first time) and the Daelkyr War are two examples of this. The main reason I like Darth Syntax's Dhakaan, though, is that it creates a very clear and sharp contrast between Old Dhakaan and the modern state of Darguun, as well as a very clear and sharp contrast between Old Dhakaan and its competing neighbors, most of whom are clearly described as barbarian tribal nations (the Zil gnomes, the Mror dwarves, the orcs). It is a nice twist from the stereotypical view of goblinoid races that the most truly civilized nation in history is the goblinoid empire, with humans cast very much in the role of barbarians at the gates as civilization collapses.
Darth Syntax 10-11-06, 02:35 AM	It is a nice twist from the stereotypical view of goblinoid races that the most truly civilized nation in history is the goblinoid empire, with humans cast very much in the role of barbarians at the gates as civilization collapses. I raise my cup of tea to the 'barbarians at the gates' remark, never could it be better said.
Giarc 10-11-06, 03:12 AM	The main reason I like Darth Syntax's Dhakaan, though, is that it creates a very clear and sharp contrast between Old Dhakaan and the modern state of Darguun, as well as a very clear and sharp contrast between Old Dhakaan and its competing neighbors, most of whom are clearly described as barbarian tribal nations (the Zil gnomes, the Mror dwarves, the orcs). It is a nice twist from the stereotypical view of goblinoid races that the most truly civilized nation in history is the goblinoid empire, with humans cast very much in the role of barbarians at the gates as civilization collapses. Two thousand years pass between the fall of the Dhakaani Empire and the arrival of humans on Khorvaire, though. And the way the timeline in ECS states it, the empire is "shattered", so I see the humans arriving from Sarlona encountering goblinoids that are in a similar state as they are in the present game time. Also looking at the timeline, the first mention of the Daelkyr War is 4,000 years before the final collapse of the Dhakaani Empire. Perhaps before the Daelkyr War, the Dhakaani were as Darth Syntax wrote, but afterward they declined into my vision of the Empire, until they finally "shattered by in-fighting and civil strife." Maybe this was the Daelkyr's doing? They seem the type to change their tactics from open fighting to a more cold war where they undermine the structures of the goblin civilization. I just want to make sure you know that I am not trying to be a contrarian, this is really interesting to me (and I'm getting some ideas for some adventures, to boot! :) )
goblin_pride 10-11-06, 06:40 AM	Hmm, civil service exams, I hadn't considered that. I went with a bit more rustic approach, with provinces apportioned by census and governors in each province appointed based on merit. and those governors in turn would have to travel to the Capitol every year to vote yeah or nay on the continued rule of the Imperial seat and small council. That way each province would be a mirror in miniature of the way the empire as a whole ran. The Governors would be chosen from among the actual working population of a given village, city or province that way the civil authority would be represented in the chief seat with the military serving them. I never thought to make the position of Empress/Emperor non-hereditary but that approach would make more sense. It makes the imperial seat simply the supreme governor of the entire empire. I had thought that each governor and the general of a province would give equal voice to both sides in the decision to maintain or remove a given head of one branch or the other. On the idea of the judicial, I never really gave it much of a thought. I had always figured on the governor and general of provinces making the decisions as they came up and the head of each village doing the same. I like yours better because it adds an additional level of authority I hadn't pictured. I do like the idea of universities and institutes of higher learning being in every major city to produce an educated element to the culture. In 11,000 years they would have a huge quantity of material as far as history, literature and philosophy are concerned. So it makes sense that they would have schools geared towards teaching it and that would be the place where the civil service exams are held. And on a final note, go look up agnostic and atheist and learn the difference. The Empire was agnostic meaning it didn't espouse one god or another, the empire didn't have an imperial cult, it would've accepted any god that the people of the empire followed (up to and including worshipping the worm in the bottom of a bottle of Mescal, but you didn't hear that from me)
goblin_pride 10-11-06, 06:58 AM	Two thousand years pass between the fall of the Dhakaani Empire and the arrival of humans on Khorvaire, though. And the way the timeline in ECS states it, the empire is "shattered", so I see the humans arriving from Sarlona encountering goblinoids that are in a similar state as they are in the present game time. The ECS says that the goblin tribes very rarely made any forrays out of their mountain fortresses so the human kingdoms that grew up on Khorvaire didn't have any idea that they were even there. As for being shattered, yeah, they were prob'ly bracing themselves for the final blow from the Daelkyr. As far as their current state, you have to remember that some of the clans and tribes didn't stockpile the historical and cultural materials that the Kech Volaar did. Those tribes and clans seem to have descended into a society that favors the strong over the wise. And unless I'm mistaken, the wise seems to have been the ones in control of the Dhakaani in all our minds.
eehamburg 10-11-06, 09:21 AM	I have to say that I am quite in favor of what everyone has wrote and it has given me much inspiration. In addition, it is quite interesting to see how everyone views the empire ever so little bit differently.
Darth Syntax 10-11-06, 10:29 AM	On the time-line: The extreme length of the Dhakaani Empire (with a history longer than recorded human history which goes back to the Sumerians in circa 3,000 bce) does provide several 'issues' with regards to the creation of a believeable historical outline. The four thousand year period of decline after the Daelkyr wars being one of the most problematic. I would imagine that the outlying regions of the empire would be prone to increased strife and the like, while the core of the empire (centered around the region we would now call northern central Breland and southern Thrane: Starilaskar, Sigilstar, Vathirond etc.) would have held out much longer before fading away when Karrn the Conqueror whipped up anti-goblinoid sentiment as a tool of his failed quest to bring all of Khorvaire under his control. Hopefully I'll have more on this sort of thing later -- And on a final note, go look up agnostic and atheist and learn the difference. The Empire was agnostic meaning it didn't espouse one god or another, the empire didn't have an imperial cult, it would've accepted any god that the people of the empire followed (up to and including worshipping the worm in the bottom of a bottle of Mescal, but you didn't hear that from me) I assume you are directing this comment as my version of the empire, and the conception of loyalty to the abtractions of the Law (which is not to be confused with the alignment of the same name) and the State. Believe me when I say I know the difference between atheism and agnosticism, and I also know that the two positions (and their varrious forms) are not mutually exclusive. Moreover, my conception of the empire was of an activly agnostic (and generally ignostic) state. The official line on this was something to the effect of 'gods? we are not interested in gods, we do not know if they even exist. What we are interested in are the pragmatic concerns of life: how to create order, how to govern justly, how to live acording to universal laws of reason and in accordance with wisdom. The gods are irrelivant.' The key here is that to the Dhakaani the gods do not matter. If they exist well bully for them, if not, *shrug* dosen't change a thing. Loyalty to the state isn't exactly a proxy religion (that's more the job of the philosophical schools). The empire was a state based on law codes, not on the personal power of a monarch, and while these laws were not venerated as 'holy things' they were considered to be 'wise things' that kept the powerful from exploiting the people, a very good thing indeed. If you want to worship some god or other in the empire, fine, no one is stopping you, but they aren't going to help you out either. But the vast majority of the population has other things on their mind. They would rather argue over whether or not the government will be re-paving their roads soon, or discuss the latest opera in a tea-house long into the night. By the time of the Reign of the Nine Golden Generals (the golden age of art and culture just before the horrific invasions from Xoriat) most imperial citizens were activly agnostic and had been so for generations. -- Well, more on all of this later; I must be off.
goblin_pride 10-11-06, 11:17 AM	I assume you are directing this comment as my version of the empire, and the conception of loyalty to the abtractions of the Law (which is not to be confused with the alignment of the same name) and the State. Believe me when I say I know the difference between atheism and agnosticism, and I also know that the two positions (and their varrious forms) are not mutually exclusive. Moreover, my conception of the empire was of an activly agnostic (and generally ignostic) state. The official line on this was something to the effect of 'gods? we are not interested in gods, we do not know if they even exist. What we are interested in are the pragmatic concerns of life: how to create order, how to govern justly, how to live acording to universal laws of reason and in accordance with wisdom. The gods are irrelivant.' actually it was directed at the general public, although it would seem the writers at WotC could stand to take a peek at a dictionary too. Agnostic, in my opinion simply meant that a person's gods were their own and the empire didn't bother to worry about any of it, they had more important things to do, like making sure the roads got paved this year...... However, the shift towards active agnosticism would add a bit to the sudden lack of healing magics in the empire, sort of "the gods got even for your lack of faith" kind of thing
Darth Syntax 10-11-06, 11:46 AM	As to the lack of healing magic, I don't forsee this as being a problem. For one, bards can heal, and it is well documented (even outside the confines of my head ) that the Dhakaani had a strong bardic tradition. Additionally, artificers (which the empire did indeed have a great number of) would be more than capable of crafting the varrious items needed for the purposes of healing. Now that is what can be done according the rules as they exist: an avenue worth exploring (in my mind) would be the use of advancced forms of alchemy (truely more than just potion brewing back in the imperial period) as a basis for real medical practice. Personally, I have never liked or trusted healing magic. I want to know that my doctor has an intellectual understanding of what they are doing to me, none of this hand waving and *poof* you're healed. Granted, it works and thats all very well and good (and I'll take it if you've got it), but I would much rather go to a physician than cleric for my healing needs. The Dhakaani share this view with me, and moreover they often distrusted divine magic in general; beliving it to be irrational and governed neither by the sublime rules of musical harmony,as was bardic music, nor the internal rules of language and formulae, as were wizardry and alchemy. All of this is not to say that the Dhakaani were rationalist-materialists, they were often not. They had more than their fare share of superstitions and weird practices, rituals, ceremonies, and the like. The difference between these Dhakaani rituals and those of other goblinoid states, as well as most non-goblinoid states, was the conspicuous absence of invocations of the divine. Certianly many festivals, holidays, and rituals had their roots in the old polytheistic religions of the pre-Dhakaani period, but over the centuries these slowly changed into either civic festivals, or into cultural practices that very often were inexplicable even to those who performed them. More on all of this at some yet-to-be-decided date.
goblin_pride 10-11-06, 11:48 AM	I've been toying with the Funerary customs just mulling them over in my head. Without an afterlife, people tend not to build tombs to inter their dead. I thought creamation would be the most likely but that draws away a sizable chunk of possible ruins to explore. What I suggest to replace it is funerary caches, rather than having tombs for the body of the deceased, the Dhakaani built storehouse/shrines in which the personal belongings of the dead were placed in honor of their position in the community. Certain items are obviously going to be left out but after a few generations the funeral caches of the more martial clans will be absolutely huge arsenals of weapons and armors hidden from view to bury the memory of the dead but still preserving items of power. The obvious need to protect such a cache would be the sole reason for the same traps that would protect tombs. And it gives the DM carte blanche to leave little presents buried along the mountain passes for players to stumble across. What do you think?
goblin_pride 10-11-06, 12:09 PM	Now that is what can be done according the rules as they exist: an avenue worth exploring (in my mind) would be the use of advancced forms of alchemy (truely more than just potion brewing back in the imperial period) as a basis for real medical practice. Personally, I have never liked or trusted healing magic. I want to know that my doctor has an intellectual understanding of what they are doing to me, none of this hand waving and *poof* you're healed. Granted, it works and thats all very well and good (and I'll take it if you've got it), but I would much rather go to a physician than cleric for my healing needs. The Dhakaani share this view with me, and moreover they often distrusted divine magic in general; beliving it to be irrational and governed neither by the sublime rules of musical harmony,as was bardic music, nor the internal rules of language and formulae, as were wizardry and alchemy. simply adding the skill Knowledge(anatomy), knowledge (medicine) and Profession (surgeon or doctoring) would suit the rogue quite nicely and could all add a synergy bonus to the healing skill. As far as making it fit in with the artificer I think that may still be a bit too arcane. Adding it to a rogue's skill list would fit because his knowledge of what will certainly kill a being would explain why that rogue has sneak attack damage bonuses. I suppose with the proper levels of Profession (herbalist) you could conceivably make a non-magical form of potion or salve. It'd take a bit of figuring to come up with a price for an alchemical healing potion. I'd hate to do it but I might even consider making it a prestige class. Give it bonuses to the amount of healing done by the character, the brew potion feat for healing salves and the like. It's going to seem odd to most players but medicine and surgery existed long before most people think, why shouldn't the Dhakaani have a specialized non-magical healer class?
eehamburg 10-11-06, 12:40 PM	With the length of the history of the Empire and then its long fall, make you wonder about all of the lost history and all of the lost lore and knowledge that could be out there.
Darth Syntax 10-11-06, 01:40 PM	It's going to seem odd to most players but medicine and surgery existed long before most people think, why shouldn't the Dhakaani have a specialized non-magical healer class? This is quite true. Relitivly advanced medical practices were known in the Hellenistic world (especially Alexandria), some of which were only rediscovered in the 19th century. Following my maxim of 'if the hellenistic people or the romans had it, then the Dhakaani certianly could have the same' it follows that medical science in the empire was comparativly advanced. I have also been toying with the idea of a kind of 'biological artificer' primarily so one can truly represent figures like Viktor Frankenstein and Dr. Mroeau. Although i must admit that mechanics is not my strong suit. -- On to funerary customs Goblin Pride, you said that 'without an afterlife people tend not to build tombs '. Although there is some logic to this, it is not always the case. Many cultures with very complex afterlife beliefs have comparitivly simple funerary rites, and I know many people who do not believe in any form of afterlife (myself included here) who never the less feel that some kind of funerary rite is probably cathartic for the living. This latter idea, that funerals are for the living, not the dead, would seem to be right at home in the Empire. Also the fact that Dolurrh is a fact of life in eberron (and the Dhakaani would have known this) rules out the 'no after-life concept' I agree with you that cremation of the dead makes sense for the Dhakaani, but i can see them have very elaborate funerals (there are referenced to 'durge singers' afterall) that would be something like a cross between a requiem and a wake. For the dead, a great sorrowful song is sung: a remembrence of deeds so that their soul may pass to grey eternity knowing that it will be remembered. And for the living, a wake, a celebration of the life of the one who is dead, so that the emotions of grief and anger which accompany death can be purged away. The funerary cache is an interesting idea, and I think it makes a great deal of sense. On the topic of Dhakaani 'ruins' of the classic D&D variety, I was seeing them more as either the remains of sub-levels of fortresses, cities, and store houses. such places would likely be trapped so that the goods stored therein would be protected. The use of Artifice also provides for some interesting options. Vaults of gentle repose used to store food-stuffs and other perishable items could have been relativly common. As a result vaults of saule the great Dhakaani wines, would occasionally be uncovered and could still be drinkable. I am sure such wines would command a high price on the open market. Olive oil would also be a relitivly common good uncovered in these Gentle Repose vaults, as it was the physical backing of the Dhakaani economy (this is something I dreamed up early on in my musings on the Empire, but I liked it and so it stuck). -- Moving on to the issue of lost knowledge, I am sure that there is a whole host of things the Dhakaani knew which have been forgotten by their modern descendants, and never known by the post-galifarans. I'm relativly sure that their knowledge of mathematics was excellent, and was the basis for much of their science. Musical theory was based on mathematical ratios, and the calculus was widely known in some form by the educated. They also knew the value of pi, the fibonacci sequence, the golden mean, and probably more. More on all of this later
okaynowa 10-11-06, 03:51 PM	Would this be a good time/place to mention some musing I did on intra-tribal goblin culture?Excerpted from Goblinoid Intra-Cultural Communication, a monograph by Phex, Sage-Professor of Comparative Culture at Morgrave University. Goblinoids across Khorvaire tell countless versions of the following anecdote:These three lived in the cave, and these three did their part. The hobgoblin took wood and iron and made a spear. The bugbear used the spear to bring down a boar. The goblin cooked the boar for their feast. When the boar was ready, these three sat down to eat. The bugbear ate the liver, the heart, and the haunches. The hobgoblin ate the brain, the fat, and the flesh. The goblin ate the eyes, the entrails, and the marrow. When they were full, these three cleared the table. The bugbear kept the teeth. The hobgoblin kept the hide. The goblin kept the bones... From the tongue of a skilled dirgesinger these verses may continue indefinitely in either direction in time, starting earlier in the process (clearing the cave, mining the iron) or following up on subsequent chores (making armor, preparing for battle). The most common change to the anecdote is the re-ordering of the races: final mention is the place of honor, the “last laugh” of the victor. Thus a goblin witch doctor will say, “A hobgoblin, a bugbear, and a goblin” (as in the version above), while a bugbear shaman may say, “A goblin, a hobgoblin, and a bugbear.” I speculate that the honor given to last place may indicate the esteem goblinoids grant to surprise and "coming up from the rear," as it were... Local variations of this chant typically substitute personal weapon and game preferences for the spear and boar. Some versions substitute another shared activity altogether for the hunting metaphor: warfare in Darguun, manufacture in Sharn, sailing in the Principalities. In any version, the anecdote seeks simultaneously to reinforce the concept of goblinoid unity—each race performs a vital step in a process—and to acknowledge the distinct qualities of each race. The positive or negative nature of such acknowledgement depends in large part on who else is listening. Particularly popular or broadly applicable verses may appear by themselves in everyday goblinoid speech in the form of aphorisms. Witness the following: The bugbear sleeps outside, the hobgoblin sleeps by the door, and the goblin sleeps by the fire. (A typical defensive arrangement.) The goblin strikes the feet, the hobgoblin strikes the body, the bugbear strikes the head. (Common warfare tactics.) Goblins shriek, hobgoblins speak, bugbears sneak. (A bugbear's perspective on interaction with non-goblinoids.) A bugbear will step on a beetle, a hobgoblin will sweep it away, and a goblin will cook it. (A goblin's view of dietary economy.) Two goblins, half a bugbear, one hobgoblin. (A hobgoblin's idea of a good population ratio.) Though I have been unable to record any instances first-hand, field researchers of the adventuring stripe tell me that they have heard versions of this goblinoid classic in which non-goblinoid races fill the first two positions, and goblinoids as a whole share the honorable position. It may be possible that these researchers have mistaken the tribal/national name "Darguun" as signifying some sort of pan-goblinoid feeling; even so, granting the name of a political group (rather than a racial one) the traditionally honored spot in the litany would represent an important shift in goblinoid self-identification.
goblin_pride 10-11-06, 06:00 PM	Would this be a good time/place to mention some musing I did on intra-tribal goblin culture That's really quite good, the overall nursery rhyme feel to it suggests that it'd be used to teach Dhakaani children to cooperate. Adding in the analysis gives it the academic dissection feel that these things ARE being actively studied, when they can find manuscripts that is.
goblin_pride 10-11-06, 08:31 PM	now for something I use in my own game, "In the days of the first empress of the Dhakaan, her Imperial majesty chose from among the goblins 13 to serve as her personal bodyguard. These 13 became known as the Elo'khesh or Silent Sons. As they married and grew into a clan by their own right they were given the task of harnessing new lands to the empire's needs. Among the Elo'khesh, one can read the position of a given goblin by the facial markings of that goblin. Tattooed over the right eye are the names of a goblin's father, mother and place of birth written top to bottom, left to right in column form. The name of an individual and the place of his first testing are located on the left cheek. The tattoo on the right cheek is the designation of his place within the clan's power structure, his first mark will be one of the Elo'khesh. The marks are in ascending order of importance, Archer, spearman, builder, herdsman(tender of animals) and Farmer (son of the soil). After proving his merit a goblin may be given the honorific of Daru'khesh or Silent Father. It's a rank comparable to anything from a sergeant to a lord among the pinkskin races. A Daru'khesh will have an additional tattoo on the right cheek denoting his advanced status, the marks are in ascending order of importance, Honorable brother (veteran), Master archer, Master spearman, Engineer, Tactician, master herdsman and Master farmer. The Esteemed Silent Father is the master of all the Daru'khesh of a given mark in a geographic region spanning no more than one hundred fifty miles at most. The title is given to a goblin by the head of the clan in a province after a vote by all the Daru'khesh of that mark. There is no Esteemed for the mark of Honorable Brother. The Impressive Silent Father is the head of the clan for a given province and is chosen from among the Esteemed of the clan by silent vote. He's the de facto ruler of all lands controlled by the clan in the province. The tasks of applying the Empire's justice and overseeing the testing fall on his shoulders. For the most part, the Elo'khesh simply rebuild and refortify farmsteads outside of the Dhakaani holds in the Seawall mountains. Defending those farmsteads from the predations of the more barbaric tribes that raid into the mountains looking for goblin slaves and easy plunder. The one exception to this are the black wanderers, the order of the 13. When a Daru'khesh wishes he can travel to the clan's hold in Volaar Draal and volunteer for the order. Members of the order of the 13 were, historically the defenders of the Empresses' palaces and regalia. Since the collapse of the empire, they've donned black cloaks and bear black banners in recognition that it was the order that lost the crown of the Lhesh Dhakaan. And they'll do so until they recover the regalia of the Empress." I put the average among the Elo'khesh as Fighter 1/Rogue 1 and the average of the Daru'khesh at Fighter 2/Rogue 2. A real nasty surprise for PCs who think they can assualt a farming village because "they're just goblins, how hard can this be?":D
Darth Syntax 10-11-06, 09:30 PM	An interesting story, and full on interesting flavor. I especially like the farmer aspect of the whole thing. There are some minor similarities between your account and my concept of the Dazhutran the elite slave-soldiers of the empire (the Dazhutran are branded on the left cheak bone with three vertical lines to indicate they are owned by the state, and to show they have no fear of pain). -- Some minor lingustic notes however in OHD compounds the adjective precedes it's head noun like in english (which has atypical adjective placement for a SVO language). Additionally, as far as i remember the OHD word for 'silence' is zhōnn (although i could well have mis-remembered that one). Also i would imagine that the words for 'father' and 'son' might be expressed in the genative case. Below are some possible renderings of your translations: For Silent Father nezhōnndĺrut: literally 'the our-father of silence' or nezhōnnkauleant: 'the our-honorific father of silence' kaule is the formal, honorific form of father. If the roman catholic church were to randomly adopt OHD as their language, one would call priests 'kaule' daru is the kinship form of father (probably semantically closer to the english dad) and is what one would be likely to call one's father. Depending on the formality of the situation I could see either being used. For Silent Sons nezhōnnēloant: 'the our-sons of silence' End linguist mode
okaynowa 10-11-06, 11:01 PM	Said goblin_pride:That's really quite good, the overall nursery rhyme feel to it suggests that it'd be used to teach Dhakaani children to cooperate.It is Phex's conjecture (forgive an old DM his in-character mode of expression) that a significant number of the modern "These Three" verses originated during the last goblinoid dynasty. Of the most widespread verses, the oldest/most archaic versions are performed among the Dhakaani heirs. The critical signifier of the Dhakaani versions is that the three perform their tasks at the behest of a "chieftain." The word "chieftain" may actually translate as general, or lord, or king, or emperor-- the difficulty in translating this word lies in conflicting Dhaakani/Galifaran concepts of leadership and authority. It's interesting to note that while only the Dhakaani mention an emperor (or leader), almost all goblins have some form of the verses. Even if the verses began as imperial propaganda, they have become something both homier and deeper.
goblin_pride 10-11-06, 11:56 PM	in OHD compounds the adjective precedes it's head noun like in english (which has atypical adjective placement for a SVO language). Additionally, as far as i remember the OHD word for 'silence' is zhōnn (although i could well have mis-remembered that one). Also i would imagine that the words for 'father' and 'son' might be expressed in the genative case. kaule is the formal, honorific form of father. If the roman catholic church were to randomly adopt OHD as their language, one would call priests 'kaule' I used Khesh to follow more closely to KB's dragonshard articles on the Taarka'khesh and sharaat'khesh, silent wolves and silent blades respectively. But I'm rather glad you enjoyed it, I wrote that one out to give my own DM a nasty surprise to his players the first time they accosted a group of goblin farmers. Zhonn is silence according to the OHD lexicon however Daru is listed as Father, I've annotated my copy to note that it's familiar rather than formal
Darth Syntax 10-12-06, 01:33 AM	Ok, I see what you were doing. If you want to render the names in a modern Dharlukesh language (say Ulhyak, the Ghaal Dar language or Modern Dharlukesh, the kech volaar language) i would recomend keeping the khesh then, but altering the kinship terms to refect the fact that there is substantial time depth involved here. DARU: father OHD: daru Ulhyak: vaula (from the same root as kaule) Kech Volarr: tharu (directly from daru) ELO: son OHD: elo Ulhyak: ro KV: era
goblin_pride 10-12-06, 05:22 AM	Now that's why I leave the language development to other people, you've gotten my head spinning again. Are there three or four languages?
Darth Syntax 10-12-06, 02:17 PM	There are indeed many goblinoid languages spoken in Eberron, many are currently dieing out, but I shall do my best to give a brief overview of some of the languages as I have thought them up. [BDhaarlukesh Languages[/B] The language family originated in southern central Khorvaire some 20,000 years ago and contains many of the most widely spoken goblinoid languages today. Example Languages Hankarashi: Extinct, this was the language spoken by the people of the state of Hankarash, one of the six states that fused to form the original Dhakaani Empire. It is the ancestor of OHD Old High Dhakaani: This language (which is no longer spoken, but has survived as a litterary language, a bit like classical latin or sanskrit) was spoken at the height of the Dhakaani Empire. Many of the surviving litterary works, philosophical texts, and general records of the empire come down to the present age in this language. Modern Dhaarlukesh: This is the language currently spoken by the Kech Volaar, and is gramatically similar to OHD, its ancient ancestor. Substantial sound changes have occured, but this language remains one of the most conservative languages of the family. Ulhyak: The decendant of a sister language of OHD, Ulhyak is the primary language of the Ghaal Daar of Darguun. There is substantial influence from non-Dhaarlukesh languages both in the lexicon and in the grammar. -- Effectivly, OHD is not a living language, no one speaks it as their native tongue, and even the Kech Volaar have a mangled understanding of the language. Now concerning the relations between the Kech Volaar language and Ulhyak, i propose the following weak analogy: Proto-Dharlukesh: assume Proto-Germanic (just because it allows me to use languages we are all likely to have heard of) OHD: Assume Old Norse 'Proto-Ulhyak': Old English Modern Dhaarlukesh (Kech Volaar): Modern Icelandic Ulhyak: Modern English This gives a vague idea of how different the languages have become over time, and the fact that there is little in the way of mutual intelligibility between them today.
goblin_pride 10-12-06, 02:40 PM	Effectivly, OHD is not a living language, no one speaks it as their native tongue, and even the Kech Volaar have a mangled understanding of the language. Now concerning the relations between the Kech Volaar language and Ulhyak, i propose the following weak analogy: Proto-Dharlukesh: assume Proto-Germanic (just because it allows me to use languages we are all likely to have heard of) OHD: Assume Old Norse 'Proto-Ulhyak': Old English Modern Dhaarlukesh (Kech Volaar): Modern Icelandic Ulhyak: Modern English This gives a vague idea of how different the languages have become over time, and the fact that there is little in the way of mutual intelligibility between them today. ok, that makes a bit more sense, although I hope you modelled it more toward the Finnish or Norwegian language than Icelandic or I'll never be able to pronounce half the words.(thank you Beowulf for my slim grasp of the Norse, Geatic and old english languages) Does your language make use of kennings like the transitional languages of northern europe did? (I'm hoping yes because that makes the in-character writing so much more fun as an exercise)
Darth Syntax 10-12-06, 02:50 PM	Well they don't sound a bit like any of the languages I mentioned. OHD and its decendants are decidedly Uralicesque in nature (lots of finnish influence) my example was meant only as a very very rough means of explaining the distance of the relations. And even at that OHD would be far more like Proto-Uralic or some other Proto-Language (with respect to time depth). The icelandic example was simply to point out that the Kech Volar language is gramatically similer to the parent language. I could just as well have used Uto-Aztecan (nahuatl, hopi, and so forth) but people tend to give me funny looks when I do that. If you want to represent modern Dhaarlukesh with an earth language, I would use a combination of Finnish and the Turkic language of your choice. Just for sound structure. -- I'll be dealing with OHD poetry and oral tradition in the near future. For now an appitizer. Epic Poetry: based both off of alliterative verse and syllable weight. If Homer, the Beowulf poet, and Snorri Sturluson got together and performed a great epic, it would be vaguely similer is structure. The Riddle Cycle: This is a long, convoluted poetic tale told through a series of linking riddles with the action of the tale moving in accordance with the answers the audience gives the tale teller. These are based off of opaque-compounding (kenning-like), metrical weight, and some alliteration .
goblin_pride 10-12-06, 03:00 PM	I could just as well have used Uto-Aztecan (nahuatl, hopi, and so forth) but people tend to give me funny looks when I do that. as long as it's not one of the Tupi-Guarani family I don't mind any examples you want to use, because those will just call to mind all those "Indian Jones" quotes. I don't think I would've made the differences between the languages so vast, but I would've left out most of the more philosophical vocabulary in the lowland goblin languages. I was under the impression there were the other languages in the middle that covered the span from one extreme to the other, or did the other "bridging" languages simply die out from non-use?
goblin_pride 10-12-06, 03:11 PM	Epic Poetry: based both off of alliterative verse and syllable weight. If Homer, the Beowulf poet, and Snorri Sturluson got together and performed a great epic, it would be vaguely similer is structure. Now that's the fun stuff, but KB already gave us canonical reference to Dhakaani epic poetry so I assumed it would run the gamut from the Finnish saga to Homer's epics with a bit of Chaucer and Bocaccio's piecemiel storytelling mixed in for flavor. And with the image I had of the Dhakaani warriors being cultured and educated as well as schooled in the martial, I sort of envisioned a literary history where even the greatest Dirgesingers wouldn't be able to remember even a fraction of what the culture had to offer. I know the warrior poet image is overdone in fantasy fiction, however, I think an appreciation of poetry in the least would be viewed as a sign of worthiness to command or rule in the height of empire.
Darth Syntax 10-12-06, 07:45 PM	I don't think I would've made the differences between the languages so vast, but I would've left out most of the more philosophical vocabulary in the lowland goblin languages. I was under the impression there were the other languages in the middle that covered the span from one extreme to the other, or did the other "bridging" languages simply die out from non-use? If anything the differences in the language should be even greater. OHD was spoken 9,000 odd years ago, which is longer than the proposed time depth for just about any known language family on earth. Sure we could get into a discussion of Nostratic or Eurasiatic, but those are not widely supported by the linguistic community. Given that the proposed proto-language for the Uralic languages was thought to have been spoken some 6,000 years ago, it's not much of a stretch to assume that the modern Dhakaani groups and the Ghaal Dar speak languages only as closely related as Finnish and Nenets. -- On to the immage of the Warrior-Poet. I generally agree with you that (although somwhat over used) this archtype fits well with the Dhakaani. The oral tradition among the Dhakaani and other related people remained quite strong, even with widespread litteracy. The epics that have survived such as the Laumiloannan 'The Song of Iloan' and the Ahlukemaruat 'The Alchemists' are considered some of the finest works of the poetic imagination yet put on paper (as such I will never attempt to render these texts, being a poor poet at best). What has vexed scholars for centuries is the strange fact that Dhakaani epics were highly inter-referential, as though they were somehow all connected to each other . To make matters more complex, the epics have a habit of referencing poems , songs, and poets which never existed. Originally these references were simply thought to refer to lost texts, or to poets whose names are no longer rembered. The discovery of several works of poetic criticism from the middle imperial period, however, have helped shed light on fact these 'lost poems' were never meant to exist, and that the purpose of referencing them was a kind of complex joke played by performers of epics on each other as well as their audience. It was expected of any educated Dhakaani to be able to recite at least one of the lesser epics in full, and to know passages of the longer ones. Additionally the Dazhutran (the imperial slave-soldiers) were highly educated and expected to know not only some epics, but be able to discuss philosophy, music, possibly sing from the tragic opera, and possess a whole host of non-martial skills.
okaynowa 10-12-06, 09:30 PM	Sayeth Darth Syntax:If you want to represent modern Dhaarlukesh with an earth language, I would use a combination of Finnish and the Turkic language of your choice. (I just happen to have a Turkish copy of the Player's Handbook standing by. Thought I'd mention.) I'm loving the discussion of Dhakaani epics and the role of bards as record keepers, but what are the implications for the non-professional goblinoids? Or the goblins in Khorvaire today? I'm keen on the idea of Dhakaan as a complex but non-literate society whose strong oral tradition formed the basis for goblin cultural practices that survived to the present. That is, an educated hobgoblin of the old empire "could recite at least one of the lesser epics in full," but even now an "uneducated" goblin tanner learns his numbers through a whelp's counting song, his basic history through dirges, and his trade through mnemonic chants. The epics are going to tell the PCs how to recognize significant people, places, and things in dungeons, but the low-brow stuff is what they're going to hear when they visit the Cogs. Ah, to have both!
Darth Syntax 10-12-06, 10:38 PM	The empire itself was actually hyper-literate. It would have to be to function at all, what with all the records and the like. Unlike many human cultures, the adoption of writing on the large scale did not mean the end of the oral tradition. Both were considered necessary. Now it may be that with the collapse of the empire, the written tradition slowly died off, and the oral tradition gained ascendance. This might account for the overly heroic vision of the old empire, as the history that survived was encoded in epic poems, not in the law books.
goblin_pride 10-12-06, 11:13 PM	Now it may be that with the collapse of the empire, the written tradition slowly died off, and the oral tradition gained ascendance. This might account for the overly heroic vision of the old empire, as the history that survived was encoded in epic poems, not in the law books. I would make the dominance of the oral tradition more as a matter of necesity and the epic poems simply a memory tool to prepare the mind for carrying messages across an empire under siege by enemies. An enemy can read a dispatch, but a goblin carrying the message in his memory doesn't have to worry about someone spotting a letter in his satchel. (an obvious Fahrenheit 451 rip-off but it's such a good idea) As for the lack of historical reference in the law books, that could just be that no one has found one of the Imperial Great Libraries. Again, the epics would be good practice for remembering the law codes and historical matter far better than lugging huge collections of books everywhere an official went.
Darth Syntax 10-12-06, 11:19 PM	In the latter stages of the decline I can see this being the case. However I can't say I have thought much about that period. My real interest has been in the formation of the empire and the civilization at it's height.
Joni-san 10-13-06, 06:40 PM	*Did you know that once Finns were believed to be related to mongols?* This talk about Dhakaani poetry and epics made me wonder: What is the general tone of the Dhakaani sagas? The Finnish national epos "Kalevala" is pretty negative. No one gets what they want and most of the characters are killed. But seeing as the Dhakaani aren't based solely on us finns and based on Darth Syntax's notes the goblins would propably be more upbeat. Right? Another thing: There is a distinct lack of "King" figure in the Kalevala. The closest thing is Väinämöinen, a more sage like figure. I assume this is not the case with the Dhakaani. You having given them an Empress and a High General I suppose I should finish this finnish post X3
Darth Syntax 10-14-06, 01:00 AM	I did indeed know that the Finns and the Mongols (and a lot of other central and north asian peoples) were thought to be related. For some time their languages were considered to be related, but the Ural-Altaic theory has been rejected by most linguists these days. (Actually there is now considerable debate over whether or not the Altaic languages are even related to each other. There is some evidence that they are not) -- Now then, moving back to the topic of the content of the epics of the empire . . . There are quite a few tragic epics (these would form the basis for what would become the tragic operas) in which the great heros all seem to die terrible death, often due to their blindness concerning their situations. I was basing this sort of poem off of themes found in both greek and elizibethan tragedy. There are also a great number of ambiguious epics, Laumiloannan 'The Song of Iloan', I mentioned earlier is one of these. The epic ends before Iloan (a bardic sage sort of figure) manages to find his way home from years of exile and imprisonment at the hands of his enimies. At the end, the audience is left with the blinded Iloan wandering without direction, lost in a strange land, but refusing to give up, hopeing to eventually find some means of returning home. Hope defered but not lost. There are also some clearly heroic epics, such as the cycle of epics concerning Määyähnne, a far more heroic bard than Iloan. Määyähnne is often seen as a kind of epic proxy for Hlaarai Dhaakan herself, and there is more than a passing similarity between the figures. Both were considered to be powerful dirge singers, capable of laying low whole cities by the sorrow of their songs; both were credited with great wisdom and both became great rulers. These are ultimatly triumphant tales of the victory of wise counsil and reason over bloodlust and endless cycles of death and violence. However it is interesting to note that the Määyähnne epics predate the formation of the empire by some time, and Imperial scholars have debabted endlessly over whether Dhakaan was 'mythicized' to resemble this figure from the epic tradition. So to answer you question about a 'king' figure in the Dhakaani epic poetry: yes they do exist, but they tend to die horrible deaths, either blinded by their passions or betrayed by their allies. The bardic sage figures tend to be somewhat less overtly tragic, and some (like Määyähnne) are clearly heroic.
goblin_pride 10-14-06, 08:52 AM	Something we have to remember when discussing the empire's epics. We are talking about an empire that existed at it's height for 11,000 years, that doesn't include the building up or the decline. According to the timeline in the ECS it was -38,000 when the goblinoid kingdoms began forming and -16,000 when the Dhakaani unified all the kingdoms into one empire. That's like the warring states period in China lasting 22,000 years. Add in the -5,000 for the start of the collapse and the +998 that the campaign starts in and how many years worth of literature and culture are we dealing with again? I realize the Empire was shrinking for the last 6k years or so, but do you think that stopped dirgesingers from composing new material as well? So the figure from start to finish is closer to 39,000 years instead of 11,000. The greatest library in all of the empire would cover acres if not miles of land and still only hold a fraction of what was written over their long history. A thousand apologies for the overbearing history lesson, but I thought it was needed to understand the scope and grandeur of the variety of possible literature.
Darth Syntax 10-14-06, 02:57 PM	It's good to point out, but there are several things I would like to mention. 1) the pre-dhakaani period doesn't represent anything like a united culture, and I would imagine that much of the writting from that period has been lost (and was unknown to the Dhakaani and other states that came later) 2) Dhakaan did not unify all the kingdoms (we only know the hypothetical six) and it does not seem reasonable that the whole of the goblinoid population existed in only six kingdoms. 3) The time-depth we are talking about here is absolutly absurd. The supposed length of time of the existence of the empire proper is twice the length of recorded human history. With all the empire-falling, wars, political entropy, and the like, the whole thing is insane. This time-line in the ECS is not, in fact, true; but rather a representation of the history of the world as it is taught in the galifaran schools. This histories of the far distant past are notoriously innacurate and tend to exagerate the time span. To make matters worse, the Dhakaani had a tendancy to write a lot of intetionally fictitious histories, poems, the purpose of which was to be metaphorically true, but factually false. Myths effectivly. Some of these stories included the 10,000 odd year history of their empire when the truth of the matter was far closer to 3500 years. This is still a damn impressive period of time to be an empire. When the Daelkyr invaded the death knell of the empire was sounded, and within a few decades of the end of the wars, the empire was no more. It's greatness lost and it's people broken and scattered. Now come a long period of warring states, small kingdoms, and general chaos and disorder. The dim memory of the empire fades completely from the goblinoid people. The arrival of humans in Khorvaire cause some of the goblinoids to attempt to find something, ANYTHING, which could serve as a 'national immage' and help them to unite against the foreigners. Some of the goblinoid groups discover some ancient Dhakaani ruins and eventually find some well-preserved books and other items of text. Painstakingly they being to decipher them and 'discover' the 10,000 year reign of a glorious, lost, empire ruled over by heroic goblinoids. This is a powerful immage and these goblinoid groups attempt to imulate these long-lost ancestors. What these 'modern Dhakaani' have cobbled together is a series of mythic immages, mistranslations, and wishful thinking: rather like attempting to be greek by living your life according to the Iliad. They are right about some things of course, and the essence of the 'modern Dhakaani' comes from those ancient myths, but they now bear only the vaguest similarity to the ancient empire. Just some random musings that occured to me last night. Take it how you will -- To answer you question about the existence of new material, I would say that new operas, epics, and the like were indeed composed. However many of these were not all that great and were probably relagated to the junkyard of history. Not every epic poem is going to be another Mahabharta, Iliad, or Kalevala and not every new opera is likely to be a Don Giovanni. Even accounting for this sort of thing, there is probably still a truely massive amount of text laying about in vaults somewhere . . . waiting to be read.
ArcTan 10-14-06, 03:14 PM	It's the same *ridiculous* degree of time-extension that you also have to deal with in, for example, the Star Wars series and games set in that milieu (where the Galactic Republic supposedly existed for over 10,000 years before falling, and recorded history goes back several thousand years before the founding of the Republic, and the population of the galaxy consists of hundreds of thousands of trillions of sentients, and... argh.) Although it is a really big deviation from canon to take, I like Darth Syntax's idea of the mythologized timespan of the Empire. It is similar to the inflated senes in China of how long "the Chinese civilization" has existed thanks to the heavily, heavily mythologized first dynasties (the Xia and the Shang) and the grandiose stories of demigod-like culture-heroes and philosopher-kings, which pushes the mythological history of China all the way back to 3000 BC -- when the *actual*, confirmable recorded history of the cultures that became China only goes back to about 1100 BC, and the history of what can actually properly be termed the Chinese civilization really goes back to the First Emperor (200 BC). In other words, through historical exaggeration and mythologization, and reading back into sketchy, little-known eras in history ideas that came about much later (the idea of a Confucian Mandate of Heaven, the idea of a unified Chinese civilization, the idea of an unbroken lineage of Sons of Heaven as Emperors) the "history" of China has been doubled in length in the minds of most casual observers from what it actually was. China can only really be said to be about 2000 years old, and yet people quote the proverbial statement about China being a "5000-year-old" empire all the time. Probably something similar happened with Dhakaan. Indeed, the grandiose, all-encompassing ideology of the State here associated with Dhakaan makes it almost seem unlikely that such a thing would *not* happen in Dhakaan -- there would be an overwhelming tendency to exaggerate the empire's age and power and importance, and to attribute all kinds of achievements only vaguely connected with the present-day Dhakaani culture to the overwhelming might of the Empire.
Darth Syntax 10-14-06, 03:39 PM	The China alalogy is quite apt here. I was using it as a very loose model of how to deal with the rather absurd time depth. In an attept to appease those who do NOT care for my idea of the mythicised empire, I will attempt to confine my 'factual' remarks on the empire to a period I 'know' happened: The golden age which occured immediatly prior to the Daelkyr wars. That said I will have to discuss earlier history and the like, but I will attempt to present that sort of thing in a 'this is what the people of the empire believed to be true' sort of way. I will try to keep my nose out of the period after the Daelkyr wars and the like, but I can't promise anything. My mind tends to like to fill in all those pesky historical gaps.
goblin_pride 10-14-06, 06:14 PM	I was thinking about the timeline as well, if the reign of emperors was extended like in the book of genesis to absolutely impossible lifespans to make the rulers seem wiser or more impressive that would account for such a huge timespan. ANd with a mythology driving the marking of history later empires would simply attribute it to the Imperial goblin living lifespans like the elves and the like. Remember, the Dhakaani empire was only 5-6 elven generations ago. And the Genesis example was merely used as a fairly common example, if you really believe that people lived 900+ years that regularly, bully for you. Nothing against the christians, but their version of the long-living kings is just more readily accessable to the rest of the community than citing examples from Assyrian, Babylonian or many, many other sources that the common people will never have heard of.
goblin_pride 10-14-06, 06:56 PM	On a completely unrelated note to the previous, I was thinking this morning about personal honor. I would say that the Dhakaani have some degree of personal honor although not quite as rigid and formalized as the Japanese medieval model. It would take a failure on a monstrous level to require a goblinoid to ritually disembowel themselves, however a suicidal headlong rush into the face of the enemies of the empire would make far more sense. Stripping away the concept of personal honor removes the core being of what it is to be a goblin, hobgoblin or bugbear. "Yes, they're violent, yes they can be brutish and yes, they can be bullying, however they are Dhakaani and have honor you mindless savage." By that, I mean the duels in the street in modern Darguun may be no more violent than the duels in the street during the height of Empire but during the Imperial period it wouldn't be quite as hair-trigger to set one in motion. The thought of completely removing the possibility of two goblins having it out in the streets over an insult completely alters the race, constraint and patience would be at the core of the goblin's thinking, but ultimately if one side or the other is left losing face a fight is inevitable. Additionally, a Dhakaani goblin wouldn't be as quick to draw a weapon because they would see themselves and the other in the duel as imperial assets, not to be squandered. So most duels would end up as a harsh exchange of words rather than an exchange of blows.
Jastra of the clawed hand 10-15-06, 11:40 AM	On a hopefully not totally unrelated note... After having read this - and having my mind blown by what I read, you guys are doing an excellent job - my mind wandered back to a question I've had for quite some time. Why are the elves capable of channeling their ancestors and the goblins are not? Things like the revenant blade, the deathless and what-have-you are all reserved for elves. However, with a history as great and far-reaching as that of the goblins (whether to go with the mythologically drawn-out 3500 years, which already is a hell of a long time or the full 11000), wouldn't it make sense for some of them to have the ability to access the lost wisdom of their ancestors? I was thinking about a prestige class there, not exactly sure what the focus should be. But the main premise is a goblin who through study and discipline (or maybe through magical means) manages to regain some of the knowledge and wisdom of his ancestors. It doesn't even have to be combat-related like the revenant blade. Maybe a class for bards... If only one - maybe a PC goblin - indeed uncovered such power, it could lead to huge complications as I don't believe all goblins want someone who knows the truth, not even those who glorify the ancient empire - you don't want someone pointing at you and saying, " If you want the empire back, start acting like you do!" Especially if you know that person is right... Anyway, just my 2 cents. Any further ideas on that would be greatly appreciated.
okaynowa 10-15-06, 12:34 PM	Said Darth Syntax:Painstakingly they being to decipher them and 'discover' the 10,000 year reign of a glorious, lost, empire ruled over by heroic goblinoids. That number "10,000" could merely be an inaccurate translation of an OHD phrase that meant "infinite" or "more than you can actually count/see/grasp." It may have been something even more poetic, such as "In the time of the dragon's grandfather," which a translator calculated (accurately or not) as meaning 10,000 years ago. (Tangentially, I suspect there must be Undying Councillors around who would have been contemporary with the Dhakaani empire. Unfortunately, such a creature would likely be A. less interested in goblin history than his people's, B. sequestered in Aerenal after ascending, and C. possibly not aware of the passage of time as mortals are. Not a good source of information, beyond perhaps memories of the first Valenar colony.)
ArcTan 10-15-06, 02:59 PM	The thought of completely removing the possibility of two goblins having it out in the streets over an insult completely alters the race, constraint and patience would be at the core of the goblin's thinking, but ultimately if one side or the other is left losing face a fight is inevitable. Does it really? If you want to give the Dhakaani this kind of duel-in-the-street honor, it's up to you. Frankly I'd rather channel the Dhakaani's martial aggression into fields I personally see as more Lawful and less wasteful. I don't really agree with the idea that any *cultural* aspect of a race needs to remain for that race to have the same flavor. Really big, broad emotional tendencies, sure -- goblinoids are aggressive in the general sense, dwarves are loyal and honorable in the general sense, elves are passionate and fey in the general sense, whatever. But, for example, the Valenar in my Eberron don't do a lot of singing and dancing around campfires in the woods. The Orcs in my Eberron are *not* automatically capable of beating themselves into mindless bloodlust and *not* automatically fond of mutilating their own bodies as signs of martial prowess. Just as there's nothing that Humans automatically are in a campaign setting (except that they're usually a common race), I don't like attaching specific cultural factors to a race that you can't peel off. I wouldn't mind seeing a setting where Dwarves don't give a crap about gold at all but reserve their careful, dutiful natures for something else, for instance.
Darth Syntax 10-15-06, 04:36 PM	Vaağar! I go away for the better part of a day to clean the house and get caught up on some class work and look what happens. Hordes of ideas to sift through! Yay . . . I agree with ArcTan that the culture of any given race need not remain the same in order for that race to have validity. Take the hobgoblins for example: as a general rule they are a 'lawful' people, and fact that finds its expression in the complex leagalistic beurocracy of the Dhakaani. However this is not the only valid expression of this 'lawfulness.' The Yimyataaq, a goblinoid culture which existed in what is now Karrnath durring the Dhakaani period (another of my random goblinoid expansion projects), were cultural traditionalists, relying on hereditary rule and a complex religious system for the foundation of their society. They were unrelated to the Dhakaani in culture and developed along quite different lines, yet they were as lawful. (If anyone is at all interested in hearing about the Yimyataaq let me know and i will write something up) -- Okaynowa, I really like your notion that the beliefe in the 10,000 year empire was the result of a mistranslation of a poetic metaphore for something like 'infinite'. It calls to mind The Thousand Nights and One Night whose title is meant to evoke the infinite. -- Well, I'll be mulling all of this over and hopefully I'll have something useful to post later on today.
goblin_pride 10-15-06, 06:50 PM	On further reflection I;ve had a bit of a retraction of my thinking on personal honor. I think it's likely that a hobgoblin, goblin or bugbear would likely slaugther a member of any other race in the street for even the slightest provocation, but dueling among themselves wouldn't exactly fit with the overall theme of the empire. Quarrels among the goblinoids would more likely be solved in a less violent, more creative fashion. Something along the lines of say a game of chess or another form of strategy game that would not only settle matters of honor but also hone the tactical thinking skills of both the goblinoids involved. On another note, I was looking at the map in the ECS and something hit me. Rhukaan Draal is the seat of power of the Rhukaan'tash tribe of hobgobs in the modern Darguun. There's also a city name Volaar Draal which would fit the Kech Volaar nicely. And with the pattern grasped firmly in my mind it leaves us part of the names of a few other Dhakaani tribes to play with, Paluur Draal is in Zilargo, Yurkuun Draal is in Breland, Cazhaak and Suthar Draal are both in Droaam (I'm not even going to speculate on what the city was named where great crag sits) and Taarn Draal in the shadow Marches. There's a brief reference to Sharn being the dhakaani city of Ja Sharaat in the PGtE but I would be tempted to make it Sharaat Draal and call that the original home of the Kech Sharaat. The modern "tribes" of goblinoids aren't like the traditional tribes of D&D, they're more like an allied conglomeration of clans(which are the traditional D&D tribes). The clans are the interrelated collection of bloodlines that form a sort of hyper-extended family. So each Dhakaani goblinoid will see himself as a member of his family, bloodline, clan and tribe in addition to being a Dhakaani. That being said, the Dhakaani would be the bloodline that apparently through marriage, coercion, politicking and whatever other means they could achieve, managed to unite all the other clans into the Empire as it was. So while Dhakaani is the label of the empire, it's more properly the surname and bloodline that united and wore the crown as the head of the tribe of tribes. The splintering of the modern dhakaani tribes is thus just a result of removing the central command and control structure of the empire and the isolation of millenia (3-5, depending on the source). So it would stand to some reason that the modern Dhakaani descendants are attempting to unify under their control over another tribe's claim of a Dhakaani bloodline. The only thing I can think of to create this strife would be that the Dhakaani line was merged into the hereditary lines of all the tribes under the empire's control. That creates a bit of a muddy situation in that all the higher-ups in every tribe would have a claim to the crown based on marriages from multiple millenia ago. That certainly rambled on all over the place, didn't it?
goblin_pride 10-15-06, 07:22 PM	" you think you're fit to rule the empire do you, little Dhakaani?" The sneer crossed the old Librarian's voice before finding it's way home to his face. "In this book you'll find the names and bloodlines of thousands with better claims to the crown than yours", he said as he threw the book down on his copying desk. "and in these books are the histories of the deeds of better goblins than you who thought themselves better to rule as well" The old librarian stirred up a cloud of dust as he picked up a ragged old tome from the shelf to his right. "here, boy, read the words of the last general of the Dhakaani who thought he was better to rule than the empress he thought was good only for breeding. And pay particular attention to the last page, it's the note by his gaoler detailing the extent and duration of his execution" I was going to use this as a teaser for a blurb on the dhakaani legal system but my mind went completely blank after typing it all out, the librarian is just such a wonderful character, I thought you might enjoy the flavor text.
ArcTan 10-15-06, 07:32 PM	On a hopefully not totally unrelated note... After having read this - and having my mind blown by what I read, you guys are doing an excellent job - my mind wandered back to a question I've had for quite some time. Why are the elves capable of channeling their ancestors and the goblins are not? Things like the revenant blade, the deathless and what-have-you are all reserved for elves. Well, they don't. Not exactly. The Deathless are ancestors that have been preserved using divine magic and are still on this plane. The Tairnadal, by contrast, don't preserve the spirits of their ancestors *literally* -- they gain access to some floating source of memory and power that they associate with their ancestors, but only really serves to give you the attributes that you think of your ancestor most importantly possessing -- his wisdom, his great strength, his loyalty and honor, whatever -- without actually putting you in contact with anything like a real personality and sentience. In other words, death and wasting away in Dolurrh are a simple reality of life in Eberron. In order to counter it, one has to *oppose* this simple reality somehow, and doing so requires divine magic, which is only accessible by *faith*. I would say that the Undying Councillors are only able to continue to exist because the whole nation of Aerenal really strongly believes, has *faith*, that their death is not supposed to happen, that the real duty of the universe is to keep such noble serves preserved on Eberron for all time -- and it is this faith that opens the way to Irian to keep them alive. (And keep in mind that there was a pre-existing physical phenomenon, a massive Manifest Zone of Irian, in Aerenal that makes this possible in the first place. Making a Deathless might not even work on Khorvaire without the presence of such a Manifest Zone.) Similarly the Tairnadal are like more traditional Clerics in that they really *believe* in their ancestors' presence -- they have the irrational, faith-based belief that every good thing they accomplish in life is only a reflection of something greater their patron ancestor did long ago. It's only this constant meditation -- the fact that they think about *everything* in terms of ancestors -- that allows them to draw on their "ancestral spirit" to empower deeds that, to them, reflect their ancestors' greatness. An external observer would argue -- as, indeed, Khorvairian scholars sometimes do -- that this is a myth -- that it's only the Tairnadal Elf's *belief* in his ancestor, who may or may not have even really existed, that powers this process, that focusing on an ancestor is a psychological charm that "psychs them up" in a particular way, that -- as a Khorvairian skeptic might argue about any religion -- it's only *faith* that powers the process, not a literal ancestor spirit. After all, it's only on faith that they believe ancestor spirits persist in any form at all. We *know* that the first thing that happens to spirits when they die is that they waste away in Dolurrh. We know nothing about what happens after that. So given that the whole process is powered by faith, a civilization that chooses not to buy into that *particular* belief system is unlikely to replicate the same sort of divine magic as the Elves of Aeren. And the whole "agnostic" nature of the Empire of Dhakaan that means they don't have divine casters at all -- never mind that there's no Irian manifest zone conveniently nearby that they can use -- would seem to preclude an Aeren-style ancestor worship. The way I read the Dhakaani, they revere the memory of their ancestors but bear the strong conviction that their ancestors are *gone*. You bring honor to your ancestors not by keeping them embalmed and preserved (a la the Aereni) or by defining everything you do in your life based on them (a la the Tairnadal) but by revering them and then striking out to make your *own* life noble and worthwhile in its own way and adding new, unique episodes to the story of your family's history. Your ultimate loyalty is not to any particular ancestor of yours but to the Law and the State, to which you owe your own, unique duty separate from those who came before.
goblin_pride 10-15-06, 07:55 PM	The way I read the Dhakaani, they revere the memory of their ancestors but bear the strong conviction that their ancestors are *gone*. You bring honor to your ancestors not by keeping them embalmed and preserved (a la the Aereni) or by defining everything you do in your life based on them (a la the Tairnadal) but by revering them and then striking out to make your *own* life noble and worthwhile in its own way and adding new, unique episodes to the story of your family's history. Your ultimate loyalty is not to any particular ancestor of yours but to the Law and the State, to which you owe your own, unique duty separate from those who came before. well said
Jastra of the clawed hand 10-15-06, 08:50 PM	That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for your opinions ;)
zipdrive 10-17-06, 05:07 AM	WOW! just wanted to hop in and say I'm amazed by the amount of thought and work you guys are putting into this subject. Am I right in assuming you're doing this kind of stuff with all of eberron's civilizations? Two quick questions, though: 1) How do you manage to have time to do all this work? 2) How much of this information actually makes an impact (or an impression) at the gaming table? What effect do the ideas discussed here (Dhaakani epic poetry, for example) have on the player characters? And another note regarding the amount of existing ancient litrature: consider that most of the stuff written during those thousands of years is lost due to wars, natural disasters or simple disuse (as nobody cares for upkeep of acres of shelf space :) )
goblin_pride 10-17-06, 08:18 AM	Am I right in assuming you're doing this kind of stuff with all of eberron's civilizations? are you daft? we do need to have a little time to sit around the table and play with the funny little dice. Seriously though, I was sitting there with my little goblin PC (the DM suggested it, his game was going into Sharn and a goblin PC would help advance his storyline) when he said "you're from Darguun, right?". As I flipped through his ECS to find out what it was like to be from Darguun, I spotted those four magical paragraphs. It took me about two days before I found KB's dragonshard articles on the web and I started making the Dhakaani remnant much more alive for our DM and the other players. I'm guessing the others here felt the same about the little green buggers 'cause here it is. If you want a society or a nation filled out, don't wait for someone else to do it, start a thread with what you think it should be like or ask what others think it should be like and go from there.
okaynowa 10-17-06, 08:35 AM	Found another old bit, this time excerpted from “Goblins and Worgs,” first chapter of the treatise Symbiotic Cultures of Khorvaire, by Phex, Sage-Professor of Comparative Culture at Morgrave University:Traditional dirges and statuary evidence from pre-human ruins suggest that the worg has always been allied with the goblin (and through him, the hobgoblin and bugbear) … The worg offers speed and strength, the goblin offers strategy and craft… Worg packs that live among goblins enjoy a longer life-expectancy and lower cub-mortality rate than their independent cousins, proof of the profitability of the relationship.Worg-riding has been associated more with goblins than hobgoblins, but I get the impression it is not a new arrangement. What would the status of worgs (and possibly dire and winter wolves) have been in the Dhakaani empire? Were they a regular part of society? Domesticated or integrated? Or were the worg-riding goblins part of a less common, non-Dhakaani culture that flourished when the end came? I could see it going either way.
goblin_pride 10-17-06, 08:35 AM	And another note regarding the amount of existing ancient litrature: consider that most of the stuff written during those thousands of years is lost due to wars, natural disasters or simple disuse (as nobody cares for upkeep of acres of shelf space :) ) Hah, don't know the Kech Volaar very well do you? Those silly buggers save every scrap they can find from the height of Empire claiming that "it's of vital importance to the Dhakaani people". Word bearers my eye, more like packrats. The Kech Volaar Clan of the Dhakaani Tribe are described in the ECS and my interpretation is that they try to save every possible thing of intellectual value or of historical significance. So yes, someone does care for the upkeep of acres of shelves full of all sorts of books (they also collect weapons and armor, so when the librarian shushes you, you'd better well listen).
okaynowa 10-17-06, 08:58 AM	Hmmm... WORD BEARER [Racial] Your actions keep the lore of the Dhakaani alive. Prerequisites: Goblinoid suptype, member of Kech Volaar clan, Strength or Dexterity or Constitution 13+ Benefit: When you take this feat, choose either your Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. This ability's modifier replaces your Intelligence modifier on Craft (armor or stonemasonry) and Knowledge (history) skill checks. Metagaming: Goblinoids don't have an Intelligence penalty, so they don't really need this feat... but it definitely plays to their racial bonuses, and offers incentive for Fighter-types to toe the party line. A DM who were so inclined could specify that the bonus only applies to Knowledge (Dhakaani history).
goblin_pride 10-17-06, 09:04 AM	What would the status of worgs (and possibly dire and winter wolves) have been in the Dhakaani empire? In one of his Dragonshard articles, KB introduced us to a clan of goblins called the Taarka'khesh (silent wolves) who acted primarily as scout and I would assume a regular patrolling force. My thinking was that the name probably came from the sneaky aspect of the scouts coupled with their mount of choice. Picture goblins moving swiftly and silently along the line of advance of an invading army, killing a sentry here and there and sabotaging the pack train to slow them up until an army can assemble to wipe them out. A lone goblin astride a silver haired she-wolf stared out over the orcs forming up into their marching order, war lance couched in his stirrups "What do you think, old girl," he said, reaching down to rub her gently under the right ear, "how many of the pig-bloods can we take today?" With a quick glance to the pass at the other end of the valley, he said, "sing for me, my sweet, let's see how many of our brothers are about" The old she-wolf reared back and let loose a howl enough to curdle the blood of any creature under the sun and moons and was answered by a dozen other voices from both sides of the ringing mountains.....
goblin_pride 10-17-06, 09:11 AM	Hmmm... WORD BEARER [Racial] Your actions keep the lore of the Dhakaani alive. Prerequisites: Goblinoid suptype, member of Kech Volaar clan, Strength or Dexterity or Constitution 13+ Benefit: When you take this feat, choose either your Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. This ability's modifier replaces your Intelligence modifier on Craft (armor or stonemasonry) and Knowledge (history) skill checks. Metagaming: Goblinoids don't have an Intelligence penalty, so they don't really need this feat... but it definitely plays to their racial bonuses, and offers incentive for Fighter-types to toe the party line. A DM who were so inclined could specify that the bonus only applies to Knowledge (Dhakaani history). There's already a modified DC for history and appraise skill checks for Dhakaani goblinoids in one of the books. Although, I would add the appropriate craft skills as class skills for the word bearers and give them a synergy bonus from Knowledge (history). But that's just my take on it.
eehamburg 10-17-06, 09:19 AM	I can't tell you how much all of this helps to create an understanding of a mistunderstood people. By doing stuff like this, we are able to flesh out a people who had been until Eberron just cannon fodder. When you recognize people and culture for what they are and not just for just being there, you can begin to understand how they interact with each other ... much like the nations of our world.
goblin_pride 10-18-06, 09:11 AM	Has anyone put any thought into the lifespan of the Dhakaani goblinoids? The only reason I ask is that the reason for the extremely short lifespan in the previous editions of the game was the brutish, violent nature of their culture and society(at least for hobgobs and bugbears, I believe gobbos may have had short lives because of diet as well).
goblin_pride 10-18-06, 09:31 AM	** message deleted in favor of Darth Syntax's diet posting**
goblin_pride 10-19-06, 12:26 AM	Excerpt from a letter to Ghash Duurkat, lecturer at Morgrave university; These city goblins living in the bowels of this wretched manling city of towers seem to carry none of the markings or moralities of the Dhakaani who once called this region home. Long gone are the clan ties of many of them, instead they view themselves as Brelish citizens, second class citizens at that. While I agree with you that the city of Ja'sharaat does inded lie buried beneath the foundations of this monstrosity of construction, these are not the goblins of that long buried city. Motivating them into anything more than cutpurses and servants to the inhabitants of the upper reaches of the towers will be a task equal to building the city itself. Such wretched refuse will, without proper education in the customs and culture, be nothing more than a shadow of what their ancestors were. My own opinion, is that it would be better to import more agents and actual soldiers from Volaar Draal than to try to whip these wretches into shape. It wouldn't take more than 300 volunteers from the various clans to be able to build a fortress in the Lower Dura and begin training and teaching these foul whelps what their people once were and could be again. I have begun the task of instilling pride in these things by showing them a goblin that will not be kicked and it has been somewhat successful, I have a few followers, but not nearly enough to begin fortifying the lower city to our purposes. We are working well beyond our original mandate in this and I fear we may have bitten off far more than the two of us can chew. Would it not be better to simply slip into the museum and steal the items we were sent for and appeal to the clans for assistance in this other matter? We do have some backing in the lower city, with proper support from Volaar Draal we could easily build a fortified compound here and begin training from the local populace and establish a trading center for the growth of the imperial coffers. May the Empress guide us in all things, Kethet Daru'khesh
Darth Syntax 10-19-06, 02:27 AM	On the cuisine of the empire Devising food for the empire has been something I have been working on sense the dawn of my interest in the Dhakaani. I went in a slightly different direction than Goblin_Pride concerning the content of the cuisine, the main difference being my desire to produce Dhakaani cuisine which met most of the following criteria: 1) it must be recognizable as food or food-like 2) it must take into account the various climates found within the empire. 3) it must taste good 4) it must be reproducible (in some form) in my own kitchen, If I so wished. What? I cook and build ancient lost empires for fun, is this wrong? In the empire, food was considered high art, and its preparation and consumption were deemed noble pursuits. In traditionally Dhakaani cuisine, the evening meal (taken usually between 9pm and 12 am so as to allow the heat of the day to die down) is usually a social affair with one's close friends and neighbors partaking of the meal along with any immediate family. The meal is begun with the consumption of a strong, astringent tea (rather like gunpowder green tea with bergamot) so as to cleanse the palate, then the various foods are consumed along with much saule(red wine) but rarely to the point of intoxication. The content of the cuisine itself varied from region to region but several features are universal. 1) the Dhakaani ate no beef, cows having been brought to Khorvaire by the Sarlonan immigrants when they came over some 3,000 years ago. 2) Pork, lamb, duck, pheasant, quail and other birds, were the most common meats consumed by the Dhakaani, although in some regions one would have to add shellfish, spider (tastes a bit like crab really), and fish. 3) goat cheeses were commonly consumed but never in large amounts. Some of these cheeses were rather soft and used in the making of desserts. 4) the principle grains were wheat, barley and corn in the north and central parts of the empire, rice, millet, and wheat is the south. These grains were usually processed in some manner, the exception being rice which was eaten both processed and unprocessed. Corn and wheat were never eaten in their unprocessed state however both were widely used in the making of breads and other staple starches. A food not unlike polenta was rather popular among the people of the central empire. Noodles were also common in the empire and could be made of any of the staple grains. Styles varied by region and by usage. Soup noodles were generally long and moderately wide and could be made of wheat or rice. Noodles which were meant to serve as a base for sauces or for stew-like dishes, were generally made from wheat flour and ribbon like in shape. 5) The cuisine makes liberal use of spices, herbs and other seasonings. Common spices included: cumin, pepper corns of all types, cinnamon, cardamom, cumin, ginger, turmeric, nutmeg, coriander, citrus peel, and chilies of all kinds. Common herbs included: basil (both sweet and hot), cilantro, parsley, thyme, rosemary, lemon grass, tea (used both as a beverage and as a seasoning), mint, sumac, and dill. 6) Nuts were used quite often in Dhakaani cuisine. Nut pastes were used as the base for sauces (rather like korma which uses cashews as well as something like a spicy peanut sauce) and as thickeners. The imperial captial at Hankarash (roughly where Starilaskur is now) was known widely for its nut-based sauces as well as some rather interesting nut beers. 7) Tea and wine were ubiquitous thoughout the empire. Tea was the social beverage of choice (coffee having not been used much at that time) and often people would gather in the tea houses for extended lunches, discussion, and cup after cup of varrious teas. A knowledge of tea, its varieties, proper brewing methods and the like, was considered an essential skill. It would be a poor host indeed who offered their guests a badly made cup of tea. Wine (especially red wines) were much prized in the empire and most citizens of any means at all consumed some wine with their evening meals. -- I would be happy to go on and on about rules of dinning etiquette, utensils, meal structure and the like, but that would probably generate a post the size of a russian novel.
goblin_pride 10-19-06, 08:18 AM	I may have mistakenly given the wrong impression in my previous post about goblin cuisine, I wasn't suggesting that they ate things that would be foul-tasting, rather the opposite is true. Even in times of war when forced to consume things not normally considered good eating, Goblin chefs would be able to make the substitution meats more palatable through the refined art of cooking. I noticed that goat wasn't among the list of meats used in Dhakaani cuisine but goat cheese was, is that an intentional omission? Additionally, the question arises, is the cuisine you've presented the higher end of the social ladder or is that common among the lower castes in the society as well?
okaynowa 10-19-06, 08:42 AM	Said goblin_pride:I may have mistakenly given the wrong impression in my previous post about goblin cuisine, I wasn't suggesting that they ate things that would be foul-tasting, rather the opposite is true.Goblin Vincent: Fried termites taste gooood. Monstrous giant spider tastes gooood. Human Jules: They're still vermin. Halfling Marsellus d'Ghallanda: It's an acquired taste, but he's not lying. I pay adventurers 5 galifars a leg for giant bombardier beetles; then I take the beetle, carve it into fritters, and serve it on its own carapace for 2 galifars a plate. Those boys in House Deneith eat it up-- they got a real appreciation for goblin cuisine.
eehamburg 10-19-06, 09:13 AM	spider (tastes a bit like crab really). I would really like to know how you know that. I would be happy to go on and on about rules of dinning etiquette, utensils, meal structure and the like, but that would probably generate a post the size of a russian novel. You write like you have written a russian novel before. All-in-all ... I have to say that this thread has been one of the finer threads and I commend you all for the contributions made.
goblin_pride 10-22-06, 03:03 PM	On the topic of Dhakaani armor and weapons, It strikes me from the material that KB has given us in his dragonshard articles that Dhakaani armors and weapons would be more like the japanese martial gear of the Medieval period. He describes the Hobgoblins as swiftly moving and relying very little on brute force. Broad slashes and almost poetry in motion when wielding a weapon doesn't exectly fit into the medieval european equipment, thus it stands to reason they would wear something more like the Japanese O-yoroi than a suit of European full or half-plate. Armors meant to make use of speed and sudden action with a minimum of protection from savage blows. To quote the warrior-poet and philosopher Arkhuul, "a warrior swift and efficient, needs little protective covering of his body. He will engage an enemy at his pace, rather than the enemy's and will move into range of his swordarm and then quickly out again with one wide sweeping arc and delivering a lethal blow as if doing nothing more than performing the steps of a dance. A simple silk shirt, a vest of reed and leather to give some protection to the innards, perhaps a bit more to cover the thighs and forearms, a true master of this dance of death needs no more......
Neofish 10-25-06, 09:52 AM	Wow, this stuff is great guys, it really is. One thing though, personally, i'm not a big fan of the decreased timeline of the Empires span, I understand that human cultures in the real world haven't eixisted that long, but this isn't the real world and perhaps the goblinoids did something vastly different from what we did? As for explaining why they don't have starships nad laser guns and what not, i'd say perhaps they were a culture so adamant and set in their ways about tradition that they were a stagnate culture (sorta like the elves)? I dunno, I don't really have alot of experiance in this field, but I am just suggesting that rather than simply brush off the notion of a 11k year old civilization, why not try to find a way to make it believable rather than dismiss it as something that isn't possible?
goblin_pride 10-25-06, 10:58 AM	One thing though, personally, i'm not a big fan of the decreased timeline of the Empires span, I understand that human cultures in the real world haven't eixisted that long, but this isn't the real world and perhaps the goblinoids did something vastly different from what we did? As for explaining why they don't have starships nad laser guns and what not, i'd say perhaps they were a culture so adamant and set in their ways about tradition that they were a stagnate culture (sorta like the elves)? That's been nagging at me for a few days now. The golden age that Darth Syntax mentioned a time or two would've produced a higher level of technology. The problem I've reached is how to put it in place without increasing the footprint of the empire on the modern world. I'm having trouble with the lifespan of the goblinoids primarily. Goblin generations compared to the elves or dwarves doesn't allow the use of the same reasons for stagnation. At 20 to 1 and 8 to 1 respectively, goblins would produce at an absolute minimum, whole villages in the same lifespan as a dwarf or a major city in the lifespan of an elf. With that many educated and sophisticated members in a society, there would be that many more opportunities to produce the one individual that would make a significant technological innovation. In my own game, I've explained away alot of the "technology gap" by simply making most of the higher technology apply to things like agriculture, aquaculture, forestry, animal husbandry and the technology of construction (not architecture, but the means of moving large components in building). The other part of the explanation is in the refinement of technology, making things lighter, stronger, with less effort and so on. By making the advances things that wouldn't leave physical signs for the gap in years between the death of the empire and rise of Galifar, you can partially explain why there's not a bigger gap in the technology level. I've also used the materials for constuction as a way to remove some of the Empire's footprint on modern Khorvaire. Silk, reed and rope bindings for armors would decay completely within decades if not years without constant attention. Common buildings made from timber and paper in tropical areas and clinkerbuilt houses insulated with thatch in colder climates would rot to nothing in a short time after the fall. The foundations of the defensive locations would explain the large uncomplicated stone structures. For these I took a look at things like Cahokia in the early Americas and Medieval Japanese castles. With the homes of the affluent and the defensive locations built on top of large, worked stone bases, they would have a commanding view of the surrounding village or section of the metropolis. Additionally, in areas like river deltas, building along the same vein would add an extra level of protection by having areas of either water or mud between raised sections. (and a convenient way to erase their existance when they silt up after years of being abandoned) Just a couple thoughts......
eehamburg 10-25-06, 11:58 AM	What about the idea that while the empire did exist for that period of time, their decline destroyed all of the advancements that they had made and all of the knowledge that had made them was either lost or destroyed due to either infighting or the ravages of time? History has shown us that significant advancements can be made and yet over time, people forget and when wars start, things get destroyed. Think of the knowledge and expertise that went into making the pyramids, the sphinx, or stonehenge, and yet even with today's technology, we can't duplicate it. And then think about the conflicts that destroyed much of the Roman Empire and what that did to the knowledge that was gained. So think, what would happen to the goblins who could probably been in constant states of civil war during their decline and thus the destruction that occurred. In addition, think of the knowledge that was lost simply because they forgot. With those things in mind, I think that it is possible that the empire lasted as long as it did, but that doesn't mean that it was always in 1 piece. In addition, that also doesn't mean that during its decline that horrible and despicable things didn't happen that destroyed much of what had been gained.
Neofish 10-25-06, 12:00 PM	Those are excellent ideas Goblin Pride, by shifting technological advancements in the way of things that would improve the quality of life, but not be so rapid or innovative as to actually change the base method of their application, you give reason to a prolonged existance without having to defer to cultural stagnation. Also, I don't if this has been brought up aswell, but perhaps the Dhakaani did indeed have a very high technological level, but lost it in its entirity during the Daelkyr wars, I mean, a single Beholder can level an entire city if given time, let alone some uber doomsday weapons the Dhakaani created in order to fight off the Daelkyr. If we follow Eberron's magic replaced technology philiosophy, then perhaps a high level or real world technology isn't needed as an explaination at all. Perhaps the great emipire of Dhakaan had giant cities that for the most part, were like sharn, magnificent spires that towered to the heavens, cities that spaned for miles, who knows? What if they had teleporters for mass transit, and baths of cure disease and all kinds of magical marvels before the Daelkyr came and destroyed it all. For what I get, when Xoriat was Coterminous, the fabric of reality literally tore asunder and big gaping holes in the sky formed and an endless fountain of unbelievable things spilled out. That sounds like something no world could handle, perhaps the only reason there still is an Eberron is because of the technological (magical or mundane) might of the Dhakaani (and the Gatekeepers). I dunno, I guess when I see that they existed for 16k (it looks like 16,000 in my ECS book, but maybe i'm reading it wrong). I think of a Utopian (golden age) before the Daelkyr hit, and after, I still a society that tried to rebuild, but failed, due to lack of numbers, greed, remnants of the Daelkyr, lost technology, lack of leadership, disease and a host of other perils set against them.
eehamburg 10-25-06, 12:06 PM	I don't think that you are wrong .... all of those reasons are valid. The Daelkyr Wars as well as the slow decline of the empire and thus inflighting/civil wars could easily explain why everything was destroyed and with nothing left of the empire to be shown for. In addition, I just thought of this ... if the Dhakanni are in the mountains hiding, isn't that similar to how humanity hid after devastation in the Time Machine? So therefore, isn't it possible that the knowledge was lost for the same rationale?
Neofish 10-25-06, 12:31 PM	I don't think that you are wrong .... all of those reasons are valid. The Daelkyr Wars as well as the slow decline of the empire and thus inflighting/civil wars could easily explain why everything was destroyed and with nothing left of the empire to be shown for. In addition, I just thought of this ... if the Dhakanni are in the mountains hiding, isn't that similar to how humanity hid after devastation in the Time Machine? So therefore, isn't it possible that the knowledge was lost for the same rationale? Another excellent point. Also, if I may expand on yet another idea. Leadership. Look at Alexander the Great, he built a huge empire, but when he died, none of it lasted, often times, the charisma and force of personality of a single being can unite the masses, perhaps the Dhakaani were fortunate that during the Golden Age they were blessing with strong leaders. I think that deffinatly fall in line with what has been written about the Dhakaani so far (and Hobgoblins in general). Perhaps all the great/ heroic leaders dies out fighting the Daelkyr lords (perhaps they left no heirs, entire bloodline wiped out by fighting/ plauge) and after the wars, there was just no leaders that had what in took to keep the goblinoids in line. Without that single face, tribes began to split again, the hobgoblin caste lost control over their cousins (bugbears and goblins) and it just steadaily reverted back to what it was before the Empire. EDIT- this could also be a way of showing that history repeats itself, I mean, look what Lhesh Haruuc is doing, he is rebuilding and uniting the goblinoids, much like he ancestors may have done. A single force of personality forming an entire empire.
eehamburg 10-25-06, 12:49 PM	An excellent point. Keep in mind that this might be another reason why they can't reorganize and continuously fight for who is in charge. No true leaders left. No leadership lineages left. All were wiped out either by the Daelkyr or by civil wars. Without any of those leaders, leadership traits fell and when that happened, what it took to be a leader fell. Finally, you are left with all sides believing that they are right and thus you have the current situation.
goblin_pride 10-25-06, 09:32 PM	Also, I don't if this has been brought up aswell, but perhaps the Dhakaani did indeed have a very high technological level, but lost it in its entirity during the Daelkyr wars, I mean, a single Beholder can level an entire city if given time, let alone some uber doomsday weapons the Dhakaani created in order to fight off the Daelkyr. If we follow Eberron's magic replaced technology philiosophy, then perhaps a high level or real world technology isn't needed as an explaination at all. Perhaps the great emipire of Dhakaan had giant cities that for the most part, were like sharn, magnificent spires that towered to the heavens, cities that spaned for miles, who knows? What if they had teleporters for mass transit, and baths of cure disease and all kinds of magical marvels before the Daelkyr came and destroyed it all. Umm, you might want to read the PGtE, Sharn is built on top of the Dhakaani city of Ja'Sharaat. The Dhakaani city forms the foundations of all the towers of Sharn (which really says something for the strength of their foundations, I should think).
goblin_pride 10-25-06, 09:34 PM	An excellent point. Keep in mind that this might be another reason why they can't reorganize and continuously fight for who is in charge. No true leaders left. No leadership lineages left. All were wiped out either by the Daelkyr or by civil wars. Without any of those leaders, leadership traits fell and when that happened, what it took to be a leader fell. Finally, you are left with all sides believing that they are right and thus you have the current situation. Their might also be a bit of a taint of corruption from fighting the Daelkyr, perhaps the continuous infighting over who should rule is a parting gift from the lords of madness.
Neofish 10-25-06, 11:31 PM	Umm, you might want to read the PGtE, Sharn is built on top of the Dhakaani city of Ja'Sharaat. The Dhakaani city forms the foundations of all the towers of Sharn (which really says something for the strength of their foundations, I should think). Why don't I just read Sharn: City of Towers instead? lol, dude, I know all about the foundations of Sharn. I were merely stating that perhaps there were vast and giant cities all across Khorvaire at one point, that's all (I know Sharn's manifest zone is hte only reason that the towers can be a mile high, I was exaggerating before, in order to better convey my point, although, I can understand the mix up for it would appear that my grammer is found wanting).
ArcTan 10-26-06, 03:05 AM	Wow, this stuff is great guys, it really is. One thing though, personally, i'm not a big fan of the decreased timeline of the Empires span, I understand that human cultures in the real world haven't eixisted that long, but this isn't the real world and perhaps the goblinoids did something vastly different from what we did? As for explaining why they don't have starships nad laser guns and what not, i'd say perhaps they were a culture so adamant and set in their ways about tradition that they were a stagnate culture (sorta like the elves)? I dunno, I don't really have alot of experiance in this field, but I am just suggesting that rather than simply brush off the notion of a 11k year old civilization, why not try to find a way to make it believable rather than dismiss it as something that isn't possible? Because no matter what you say, it will continue to be difficult to believe simply because of the sheer scale of the history you have to fit inside it. At the very least, coming up with 11,000 years of history for an empire is hard work.
ArcTan 10-26-06, 03:13 AM	What about the idea that while the empire did exist for that period of time, their decline destroyed all of the advancements that they had made and all of the knowledge that had made them was either lost or destroyed due to either infighting or the ravages of time? History has shown us that significant advancements can be made and yet over time, people forget and when wars start, things get destroyed. Think of the knowledge and expertise that went into making the pyramids, the sphinx, or stonehenge, and yet even with today's technology, we can't duplicate it. This is simply not true. It's nonsense spouted by tour guides to try to seem impressive. We could easily duplicate the Pyramids, the Sphinx or Stonehenge with today's technology. The simplest ten-story building in New York is a better architectural feat than the Pyramids. (You do realize why the Pyramids are pyramid-shaped, right? Because they're just big piles of stone, where each layer has to be wider than the layer on top of it to support it, or else they would collapse. The fact that our buildings are oblong-shaped and don't need to have tiny tiny top floors perched on great big huge foundations is because our structural materials are far stronger than anything the Egyptians had.) People never actually say that the Pyramids would be irreproducible by modern technology if they know what they're talking about. What they sometimes say is that we moderns could not figure out how to build the Pyramids using *only* ancient technology and that means the Egyptians were really amazingly awesome -- but, well, that's not true either. We do have a pretty good idea at this point of how the Pyramids were made, and there's nothing about them you couldn't accomplish with rollers, ramps, and a great deal of corvee labor. And then think about the conflicts that destroyed much of the Roman Empire and what that did to the knowledge that was gained. So think, what would happen to the goblins who could probably been in constant states of civil war during their decline and thus the destruction that occurred. In addition, think of the knowledge that was lost simply because they forgot. The basic assertion you're making -- that you could have a highly advanced technological civilization that simply vanishes and leaves no archeological evidence of its existence -- is something that a lot of fringey pseudoscientists say that I consider to be more or less totally BS. Even if the United States completely collapsed overnight, the stuff the US had -- the huge steel girders holding up skyscrapers, the huge amounts of worked, processed metal and plastics that take millions of years to degrade, the massive changes we've made to the landscape with roads and rails and so on... it would all last for a very long time. There'd be *tons* of clues for future historians to puzzle out our history -- and, frankly, I would find it very unlikely that no future engineer would find tons of use in our leftover artifacts to rebuild his society's technological prowess. So yes, the 11,000 lifespan of the Dhakaani Empire *is* a problem, since they *must* have either been quite technologically stagnant or else they *must* have created some pretty excitingly advanced stuff from their time. Honestly, I like the latter better. There are a ridiculous number of Dhakaani artifacts of immense power just lying around for adventurers to find, it seems from reading KB's comments on the matter, and it makes some sense to think that the Five Nations of Khorvaire, on Eberron's historical scale, are just sort of getting settled in still and have not yet discovered the full extent of the Dhakaani riches hidden underneath their paltry kingdoms.
ArcTan 10-26-06, 03:14 AM	Another excellent point. Also, if I may expand on yet another idea. Leadership. Look at Alexander the Great, he built a huge empire, but when he died, none of it lasted, often times, the charisma and force of personality of a single being can unite the masses, perhaps the Dhakaani were fortunate that during the Golden Age they were blessing with strong leaders. I think that deffinatly fall in line with what has been written about the Dhakaani so far (and Hobgoblins in general). Perhaps all the great/ heroic leaders dies out fighting the Daelkyr lords (perhaps they left no heirs, entire bloodline wiped out by fighting/ plauge) and after the wars, there was just no leaders that had what in took to keep the goblinoids in line. Without that single face, tribes began to split again, the hobgoblin caste lost control over their cousins (bugbears and goblins) and it just steadaily reverted back to what it was before the Empire. EDIT- this could also be a way of showing that history repeats itself, I mean, look what Lhesh Haruuc is doing, he is rebuilding and uniting the goblinoids, much like he ancestors may have done. A single force of personality forming an entire empire. I really doubt the goblinoids just happened to have really, really strong leaders for the 11,000 years that they had an empire. The *majority* of strong leaders have more time than Alexander did to build institutions that outlast their rule.
Errant 10-26-06, 03:41 AM	On further reflection I;ve had a bit of a retraction of my thinking on personal honor. I think it's likely that a hobgoblin, goblin or bugbear would likely slaugther a member of any other race in the street for even the slightest provocation, but dueling among themselves wouldn't exactly fit with the overall theme of the empire. Quarrels among the goblinoids would more likely be solved in a less violent, more creative fashion... Just trying to catch up here & when I read this it occured to me: what if goblin custom dictates that honor duals are virtuos, but only if fought to first blood or yield - killing an opponent in an honor dual is an immense disgrace. At first glance outsiders could consider two goblins facing off and exchanging blows to be barbaric, easy missing the underlying issues and never realising that there are strict rules to such clashes. Ignorantly challenging a goblin to an honor dual and fighting to the death could cost outsiders far more than they expect even if "victorious" while goblins willing to sacrifice their lives to disgrace their enemy are viewed as either great heroes or devious villains. Given the fractured state of goblin modern goblin clans, some might not even understand the concept fully themselves (and lose their peers' respect as a consequence). Btw - I'm not familiar off the top of my head to the original of goblin street duals reference, pointer anyone? An excellent point. Keep in mind that this might be another reason why they can't reorganize and continuously fight for who is in charge. No true leaders left. No leadership lineages left. All were wiped out either by the Daelkyr or by civil wars. Without any of those leaders, leadership traits fell and when that happened, what it took to be a leader fell. Finally, you are left with all sides believing that they are right and thus you have the current situation. I agree that you shouldn't underestimate the potential impact of the Daelkyr war's destruction. I note the ECS says orc *nations* arose in western Khorvaire around -30,000 YK to *compete* with the goblinoid kingdoms, one can only guess at their advancement because it seems there wasn't enough left of the orc nations to even guess at their heritage, baring some scattered survivors and a few Gatekeepers, after -9,000 YK when "the Daelkyr War decimates the western reaches of Khorvaire". Thats an even bigger period lost to the mists of time. Personally, I wonder what effects being so close to the Demon Wastes would have had... just how far back do the Maruk Gaash'kala trace their origins? Eemhamburg's comments made me wonder as well: what if the great lineages of the Dhakaani golden age's leaders were indeed wiped out, but that the modern age has seen the first glimpses of the remnants of those lineages breeding true. Think about it, after 11,000 years touches of the bloodlines would have filtered through almost every (hob?)goblin alive. Even if the Daelkyr wars killed every member of the noble lineages to the 9th degree there would still be traces. Perhaps after nearly 6,000 years of effort the Kech Volaar have nurtured the bloodlines enough to finally produce a true heir to their ancient heritage... or they are getting close enough they finally feel the rebirth of the empire is close at hand. Just a few thoughts, take them as you will.
goblin_pride 10-26-06, 03:44 AM	Honestly, I like the latter better. There are a ridiculous number of Dhakaani artifacts of immense power just lying around for adventurers to find, it seems from reading KB's comments on the matter, and it makes some sense to think that the Five Nations of Khorvaire, on Eberron's historical scale, are just sort of getting settled in still and have not yet discovered the full extent of the Dhakaani riches hidden underneath their paltry kingdoms. Of that I would have no doubt, my problem is the footprint, the ruins that are present over a large space. In order to remove the footprint the culture left behind you have to take into account the growth of forests and other forms of plant material, volcanic activity (which would destroy most of the buried ruins), natural erosion (which would decay some some sites and bury others) and then there's the supernatural. I tend to want to favor the natural means of burying the bones of the dhakaani over the supernatural. Anything I can't explain away becomes fodder for the supernatural explanations. A good example is the description of the city of Great Crag in Droam. Personally, I've made that a city of great importance in the history of the Dhakaani and thus, a prime target for the Daelkyr attacks that drove the very bedrock up through the heart of the city. The fact that no one remembers the name of the Dhakaani metropolis that Great Crag is founded on is just further proof of the disdain the Daelkyr and their offspring have for the empire. The one empire that I really liken the Dhakaani to is the Maya, they left wonderful monuments for the future to discuss, but the jungle seems to have engulfed them so quickly that even folktales don't remember their existance. Extending the lifespan of an Empire and increasing the artifacts left by that empire without leaving a significant footprint on the modern world is difficult. It's not the buried ruins that I'm trying to erase, it's the ones that are obviously visible. By trying to make Dhakaani ruins something that a farmer tilling a field might accidentally discover, it makes looking for them that much more difficult. Never knowing if a rock turned over while clearing a field for planting will have Dhakaani writing on it makes the Empire more of a mystery, it's something that was there in most places but isn't immediately visible. I like the thought that a road built for trade through the farms of Breland might have a Dhakaani ruin just a foot or two under the topsoil. Just my two cents, but what do I know, I'm just a gobbo.......
goblin_pride 10-26-06, 03:52 AM	Btw - I'm not familiar off the top of my head to the original of goblin street duals reference, pointer anyone? To be honest, I don't recall where it was the idea came to me from.
eehamburg 10-26-06, 08:43 AM	Their might also be a bit of a taint of corruption from fighting the Daelkyr, perhaps the continuous infighting over who should rule is a parting gift from the lords of madness. I kind of think that this could be the way that it goes .... it does fall in line with the way that Eberron is.
eehamburg 10-26-06, 08:48 AM	This is simply not true. It's nonsense spouted by tour guides to try to seem impressive. . Then explain why there just a show on Discovery channel the other night that discussed this? The basic assertion you're making -- that you could have a highly advanced technological civilization that simply vanishes and leaves no archeological evidence of its existence -- is something that a lot of fringey pseudoscientists say that I consider to be more or less totally BS. Pseudoscientists? Me thinks that you don't have a clue about that which you speak... but that's ok because everyone is entitled to their own opinion... even here.
eehamburg 10-26-06, 08:49 AM	I really doubt the goblinoids just happened to have really, really strong leaders for the 11,000 years that they had an empire. The *majority* of strong leaders have more time than Alexander did to build institutions that outlast their rule. This is a possibility. Without knowing the details of their empire, it is hard to be sure ... but it is certainly plausible and makes sense.
eehamburg 10-26-06, 08:53 AM	what if the great lineages of the Dhakaani golden age's leaders were indeed wiped out, but that the modern age has seen the first glimpses of the remnants of those lineages breeding true. Think about it, after 11,000 years touches of the bloodlines would have filtered through almost every (hob?)goblin alive. Even if the Daelkyr wars killed every member of the noble lineages to the 9th degree there would still be traces. Perhaps after nearly 6,000 years of effort the Kech Volaar have nurtured the bloodlines enough to finally produce a true heir to their ancient heritage... or they are getting close enough they finally feel the rebirth of the empire is close at hand. This is what I was getting at ... this is exactly what I believe is happening... And think of the great story line that occurs when the empire slowly re-emerges and becomes a power once again ... how will that change the landscape of Eberron.... not just Khorvaire, but of Eberron itself.
eehamburg 10-26-06, 08:56 AM	It's not the buried ruins that I'm trying to erase, it's the ones that are obviously visible. By trying to make Dhakaani ruins something that a farmer tilling a field might accidentally discover, it makes looking for them that much more difficult. Never knowing if a rock turned over while clearing a field for planting will have Dhakaani writing on it makes the Empire more of a mystery, it's something that was there in most places but isn't immediately visible. I like the thought that a road built for trade through the farms of Breland might have a Dhakaani ruin just a foot or two under the topsoil. This is an excellent point. Thnk of all of the ruins we find ourselves on Earth. They can be hidden under cities or under rubble or under farmland just waiting to be discovered. There are certainly enough TV shows about it to prove that this is possible. This tends to open up the doorway for many adventurers.
Neofish 10-26-06, 11:19 AM	The basic assertion you're making -- that you could have a highly advanced technological civilization that simply vanishes and leaves no archeological evidence of its existence -- is something that a lot of fringey pseudoscientists say that I consider to be more or less totally BS. Even if the United States completely collapsed overnight, the stuff the US had -- the huge steel girders holding up skyscrapers, the huge amounts of worked, processed metal and plastics that take millions of years to degrade, the massive changes we've made to the landscape with roads and rails and so on... it would all last for a very long time. There'd be *tons* of clues for future historians to puzzle out our history -- and, frankly, I would find it very unlikely that no future engineer would find tons of use in our leftover artifacts to rebuild his society's technological prowess. Dude, I wasn't implying that the Dhakaani had spaceships and laser beams. I was just using that as an example. If anything, they were magically advanced, because magic in Eberron is subsituted for technology. And besides. I seriously think your underestimating the power that is the beholder disintegrate eye ray. It completely destroys whatever it hits, metal, stone, everything, it's gone, no trace. What about the rust monster's antennae? Anything metal it touchs, poof, gone (even magic items). Those are just 2 small examples of creatures capable of literally wiped all trace existance of a plane comepletely off the map. Those are just 2 examples of living creatures with innate abilities to destroy, what about the spellcasters on the Daelkyr side? Various Disjunctions and Ploymorphs and Transmutes will level any city and whatever magic arsenal that resides within it, completely and utterly gone. I'm not even suggesting that everything is gone, much like other posters have stated, i'm just suggesting that it's buried deep beneath to surface due to time. So yes, the 11,000 lifespan of the Dhakaani Empire *is* a problem, since they *must* have either been quite technologically stagnant or else they *must* have created some pretty excitingly advanced stuff from their time. Hey, if you think it's a problem, just imagine the Kech Volaar, I mean, your just looking into the spectrum, imagine how hard it is for them to amass every piece of info on something that spaned that long. I have to disagree ArcTan, just because you find find the idea of an 11k year ospanning empire ridiculous simple doesn't make it so. There could have been a number of things where the Dhakanni did something right where we *in real life* may have failed, who knows? Honestly, I like the latter better. There are a ridiculous number of Dhakaani artifacts of immense power just lying around for adventurers to find, it seems from reading KB's comments on the matter, and it makes some sense to think that the Five Nations of Khorvaire, on Eberron's historical scale, are just sort of getting settled in still and have not yet discovered the full extent of the Dhakaani riches hidden underneath their paltry kingdoms. How does this not mesh with the idea of an 11k spanning empire? To much history? That's great, watch this, all of will never be fully realized, why? Daelkyr Wars, civil war, constant revisions during its time, etc. Yeah, there is alot of history, but that doesn't mean that the empire was stagnate or that it wasn't a possiblity. You just gotta open your mind a little bit and get creative an think along the lines of "what did they do right" rather than "what did researchers uncoving the history do wrong"...
goblin_pride 10-26-06, 02:11 PM	Hey, if you think it's a problem, just imagine the Kech Volaar, I mean, your just looking into the spectrum, imagine how hard it is for them to amass every piece of info on something that spaned that long. Actually, the Kech Volaar are a bit of a pet project. If you think about it, they are the empire in exile. While the other tribes squabble over who should rule Darguun, they sit in their corner amassing huge storehouses of Dhakaani relics. If the Empire is going to be reborn in your game, I would suggest the Kech Volaar and it's clans leading the charge. Remember the battle cries of the Dhakaani are "for the empire", I would suppose the people that know the most about the history and culture of the empire would play a major role in it's rebuilding. My own take on the Kech Sharaat is that they're acting just like the other goblinoid tribes in the world. By seeking to unite the Dhakaani remnants through military conquest, they seem to have turned their backs on the principles the empire was ruled by. That's what leads me to the thought that the Daelkyr may have introduced an element into dhakaani civilization that caused some of the infighting (they are the lords of madness, after all). We have a very short list of Dhakaani tribes, two to be exact. From the text in the ECS we know that each tribe is made up of smaller clans that are united underneath the tribal structure. KB has given us, through Dragonshard articles two clans of goblins that seem to associate freely with both great Dhakaani tribes. What we're missing to be able to fully visualize them in our games is the names of the subordinate Hobgoblin clans and the Bugbear clans that have been ignored completely. I've surmised that the city of Volaar Draal is the seat of power of the Kech Volaar, so they have 80,000 under their flag. As much as I would love to see KB touch on the Dhakaani a bit more, part of me doesn't. I love the carte blanche empire building project that's been left to people that love the game setting and want to see more of it fully visualized. To me that's always been one of the joys of this game and it's something the video game culture that's rapidly growing around us can't comprehend. The Dhakaani are meant to be a bit of a mystery, they're a bit like Petra.
Darth Syntax 10-26-06, 02:12 PM	I'm going to have to agree with ArcTan here and maintain my possition that an 11,000 year empire is not only improbable, it is untenable. The life span of your average goblinoid is probably somewhat similer to that of your average human, which means that in 11,000 years you would have some 440 generations of people. That's a lot of people, and given that language, culture, and everything else changes, the idea of unity over such a span of time just dosen't make sense. Granted we are dealing with fantasy here and it is a common trope of the genre to have these long-spanning ancient empires, but when you try to make sense of this sort of thing, the mind just explodes. If we were talking about an empire of nigh immortal beings, well then all bets are off, but we are dealing with mortals, they die, they change, they disagree, and frankly, things fall apart. -- On the issue of leadership: I think the prevailing notion in this thread that the modern goblins lack 'leadership bloodlines' is somewhat problematic. To the 'modern Dhakaani' I would think that the establishment of a royal line or what have you would run counter to their desire to reestablish (in some form) the ancient empire. While it is true that the position of the Empress in the old empire was hereditary, she was not the source of all power in the empire; indeed once could argue that the courts and varrious civil servants held the real power in the empire. The empress was inheretly a symbol (albeit one with great power) of the unity, power, and above all the wisdom of the old empire, and I think the 'modern Dhakaani' know this. Without the Law, without the old Dhakaani system, an empress would be an empty symbol at best. So this has lead me to the thought that the Kech Volaar and the other Dhakaani clans are not waiting for an empress of a general, but a philosopher, a sage: they need a new understanding of the Wheels of the Law, they need an idea to unite behind. When (and I believe it will be when, not if) such a figure arises I have no doubt that the clans will rally behind this new Negaolkďkďligetään. -- On ruins: My initial immage of the Dhakaani empire was of an empire of builders, rather like the Romans, and I still hold to this vision. The Dhakaani were great architects, city planners, and engeneers, and if one could but travel back and see their cities they would have been wonders to behold. Broad streets dividing the cities into regular triangles (no 't' intersections but 'y' intersections were common) lined with building constructed out of brick, stone, metal, and wood. The foundations of the cities, and the road-beds can still be seen in some places (Sharn being build partly upon these foundations, and the city of Starilaskur sits atop the foundations of the ancient Imperial capital of Hankarash) and while the cities themselves no longer stand, their foot print is present. One explanation for why there are so few above-ground Dhakaani ruins has come to my mind: and that is that the varrious pre-galafaran humans (in Breland, southern Thrane, southern Aundair and Cyre) dismantled the ruins to make use of the stone and other resources inorder to build their own cities. -- I'll have to read over the thread again, especially the newish posts, and dream up some responses at some point. I am very glad to see that a spirited discussion is going on, it gives me all manner of ideas . . . .
goblin_pride 10-26-06, 02:19 PM	One explanation for why there are so few above-ground Dhakaani ruins has come to my mind: and that is that the varrious pre-galafaran humans (in Breland, southern Thrane, southern Aundair and Cyre) dismantled the ruins to make use of the stone and other resources inorder to build their own cities. That is a very good point, I completely forgot to take into account later civilizations dismantling the ruins for building materials.
goblin_pride 10-26-06, 02:29 PM	On the issue of leadership: I think the prevailing notion in this thread that the modern goblins lack 'leadership bloodlines' is somewhat problematic. To the 'modern Dhakaani' I would think that the establishment of a royal line or what have you would run counter to their desire to reestablish (in some form) the ancient empire. While it is true that the position of the Empress in the old empire was hereditary, she was not the source of all power in the empire; indeed once could argue that the courts and varrious civil servants held the real power in the empire. The empress was inheretly a symbol (albeit one with great power) of the unity, power, and above all the wisdom of the old empire, and I think the 'modern Dhakaani' know this. Without the Law, without the old Dhakaani system, an empress would be an empty symbol at best. So this has lead me to the thought that the Kech Volaar and the other Dhakaani clans are not waiting for an empress of a general, but a philosopher, a sage: they need a new understanding of the Wheels of the Law, they need an idea to unite behind. When (and I believe it will be when, not if) such a figure arises I have no doubt that the clans will rally behind this new Negaolkďkďligetään. This is where you and I agree completely, the empire may have built built for the empress, but all power lay in the hands of the sages, scholars and philosophers. It was the thinkers who held power, their plans were put into action by the generals and it was all done in the name of the Empress. Maximizing the potential of every member of society would've been key to holding an empire together for such an exaggerated timeframe. The thinkers hand down law, the generals provide order and the empress promotes civic pride.
eehamburg 10-26-06, 05:19 PM	I'll have to read over the thread again, especially the newish posts, and dream up some responses at some point. I am very glad to see that a spirited discussion is going on, it gives me all manner of ideas . . . . I am curious about some of the things that you have to say. While I don't agree with what everyone in here has had to say.... a lot of it has made some sense and has made the hobs and more rewarding society.
ArcTan 10-26-06, 07:07 PM	Then explain why there just a show on Discovery channel the other night that discussed this? There are shows on the Discovery Channel that discuss all kinds of things, like that spaceship they have in Roswell, or the Tunguska event being caused by Nikola Tesla's magic energy-transmitting machine, or whatever. What determines what gets things discussed a lot on TV is how titillating, exciting and controversial they are, not how much documentation they have behind them. The fact that you're citing a cable TV special as a source rather than an actual book (like, say, one of the books written by Erich von Daniken) only erodes your credibility. Pseudoscientists? Me thinks that you don't have a clue about that which you speak... but that's ok because everyone is entitled to their own opinion... even here. Sure. Explain to me how it makes any sense that Stonehenge could not be replicated by modern technology, or what it is that prevents modern technology from dragging stone blocks into a roughly circular arrangement. Or piling stone blocks upon each other in a pyramidal shape (by far the easiest shape to make with anything -- just look at kids playing with blocks) or whatever. And I'll take that a little bit seriously. It's more plausible that Dhakaan's footprint was erased in Eberron than that some mythical high-technology ancient civilization's footprint was erased in real life, if only because the timescales are so enormous in Eberron and Eberron has such scary supernatural threats. But I do think the tendency to picture ancient civilizations as amazingly advanced is generally the realm of pseudoscientists, pseudohistorians, and other pseudos. If the ancient Egyptians did possess amazing high technology, they did a really good job of hiding it, and arranging their artifacts in such a way that they would decay in such a fashion that they did, in fact, seem like they were built by rollers, ramps and corvee labor.
goblin_pride 10-26-06, 11:45 PM	It's more plausible that Dhakaan's footprint was erased in Eberron than that some mythical high-technology ancient civilization's footprint was erased in real life, if only because the timescales are so enormous in Eberron and Eberron has such scary supernatural threats. But I do think the tendency to picture ancient civilizations as amazingly advanced is generally the realm of pseudoscientists, pseudohistorians, and other pseudos. If the ancient Egyptians did possess amazing high technology, they did a really good job of hiding it, and arranging their artifacts in such a way that they would decay in such a fashion that they did, in fact, seem like they were built by rollers, ramps and corvee labor. Actually, there's a professor that is fairly certain that part of the means of constructing those simple ol' pyramids was by using kites to help lighten the weight of the blocks. It still came down to sliding them up ramps on rollers, but if they made them lighter by using kites, that's hardly something that our modern society uses commonly, is it? And he did prove it could be done, on the third attempt for a discovery channel documentary, they lifted a 5 ton block using nothing but material available in ancient egypt (to make the kites, that is). There's a simple explanation of a technology that I would call lost, wouldn't you? Now I'm not saying that's like the pharoahs using lasers and such, but it is a form of technology that would seem to have died with them, assuming the hypothesis is right and they did it that way (I'm a bit leery of believing it myself, but the guy did demonstrate how it COULD'VE been done that way).
Neofish 10-27-06, 01:16 AM	I'm going to have to agree with ArcTan here and maintain my possition that an 11,000 year empire is not only improbable, it is untenable. The life span of your average goblinoid is probably somewhat similer to that of your average human, which means that in 11,000 years you would have some 440 generations of people. That's a lot of people, and given that language, culture, and everything else changes, the idea of unity over such a span of time just dosen't make sense. Granted we are dealing with fantasy here and it is a common trope of the genre to have these long-spanning ancient empires, but when you try to make sense of this sort of thing, the mind just explodes. Personally, although I did enjoy your theory of a duel-monarchy-esque, centralized goverment of Dhakaan, I never thought of it that way. I always saw Dhakaan being lorded over by a few strong, charismatic tyrants. I figured the actual Empire would be a confederation in which the main ruling bodies gatherd within a mutual location to discussed how to run the empire, later, on that location, a city may have been built and the ruling bodies formed a council there. My line of thought to that is that the Hobgoblins are inheirently Lawful evil, they all wanted power over one another, but rather than mindless slaughter one another, 6 great leaders gathered together decided to stop spilling each others blood, and instead use one anothers strength and intelligence to further their goals and ends. The 6 great lords agreed that this was the best course of action, seeing that if they didn't have to worry about one another they could pursue other endevours (fighting the orcs, conquoring unexplored lands, amassing wealth, etc). I dunno, if I get some time I guess i'll write out something long and in depth such as the likes to your wonderful posts Darth. On the issue of leadership: I think the prevailing notion in this thread that the modern goblins lack 'leadership bloodlines' is somewhat problematic. To the 'modern Dhakaani' I would think that the establishment of a royal line or what have you would run counter to their desire to reestablish (in some form) the ancient empire. While it is true that the position of the Empress in the old empire was hereditary, she was not the source of all power in the empire; indeed once could argue that the courts and varrious civil servants held the real power in the empire. The empress was inheretly a symbol (albeit one with great power) of the unity, power, and above all the wisdom of the old empire, and I think the 'modern Dhakaani' know this. Without the Law, without the old Dhakaani system, an empress would be an empty symbol at best. So this has lead me to the thought that the Kech Volaar and the other Dhakaani clans are not waiting for an empress of a general, but a philosopher, a sage: they need a new understanding of the Wheels of the Law, they need an idea to unite behind. When (and I believe it will be when, not if) such a figure arises I have no doubt that the clans will rally behind this new Negaolkďkďligetään. That kinda boils down to the same concept, the Kech Volaar are waiting for a heroic, wise, charismatic leader to show them the way and bind them together once more. I'll have to read over the thread again, especially the newish posts, and dream up some responses at some point. I am very glad to see that a spirited discussion is going on, it gives me all manner of ideas . . . .
Neofish 10-27-06, 01:18 AM	I'm going to have to agree with ArcTan here and maintain my possition that an 11,000 year empire is not only improbable, it is untenable. The life span of your average goblinoid is probably somewhat similer to that of your average human, which means that in 11,000 years you would have some 440 generations of people. That's a lot of people, and given that language, culture, and everything else changes, the idea of unity over such a span of time just dosen't make sense. Granted we are dealing with fantasy here and it is a common trope of the genre to have these long-spanning ancient empires, but when you try to make sense of this sort of thing, the mind just explodes. Personally, although I did enjoy your theory of a duel-monarchy-esque, centralized goverment of Dhakaan, I never thought of it that way. I always saw Dhakaan being lorded over by a few strong, charismatic tyrants. I figured the actual Empire would be a confederation in which the main ruling bodies gatherd within a mutual location to discussed how to run the empire, later, on that location, a city may have been built and the ruling bodies formed a council there. My line of thought to that is that the Hobgoblins are inheirently Lawful evil, they all wanted power over one another, but rather than mindless slaughter one another, 6 great leaders gathered together decided to stop spilling each others blood, and instead use one anothers strength and intelligence to further their goals and ends. The 6 great lords agreed that this was the best course of action, seeing that if they didn't have to worry about one another they could pursue other endevours (fighting the orcs, conquoring unexplored lands, amassing wealth, etc). I dunno, if I get some time I guess i'll write out something long and in depth such as the likes to your wonderful posts Darth. On the issue of leadership: I think the prevailing notion in this thread that the modern goblins lack 'leadership bloodlines' is somewhat problematic. To the 'modern Dhakaani' I would think that the establishment of a royal line or what have you would run counter to their desire to reestablish (in some form) the ancient empire. While it is true that the position of the Empress in the old empire was hereditary, she was not the source of all power in the empire; indeed once could argue that the courts and varrious civil servants held the real power in the empire. The empress was inheretly a symbol (albeit one with great power) of the unity, power, and above all the wisdom of the old empire, and I think the 'modern Dhakaani' know this. Without the Law, without the old Dhakaani system, an empress would be an empty symbol at best. So this has lead me to the thought that the Kech Volaar and the other Dhakaani clans are not waiting for an empress of a general, but a philosopher, a sage: they need a new understanding of the Wheels of the Law, they need an idea to unite behind. When (and I believe it will be when, not if) such a figure arises I have no doubt that the clans will rally behind this new Negaolkďkďligetään. That kinda boils down to the same concept, the Kech Volaar are waiting for a heroic, wise, charismatic leader to show them the way and bind them together once more. I'll have to read over the thread again, especially the newish posts, and dream up some responses at some point. I am very glad to see that a spirited discussion is going on, it gives me all manner of ideas . . . . Excellent, I looking foward to reading another well thought out and in depth post.
goblin_pride 10-27-06, 07:45 AM	I always saw Dhakaan being lorded over by a few strong, charismatic tyrants. I figured the actual Empire would be a confederation in which the main ruling bodies gatherd within a mutual location to discussed how to run the empire, later, on that location, a city may have been built and the ruling bodies formed a council there. My line of thought to that is that the Hobgoblins are inheirently Lawful evil, they all wanted power over one another, but rather than mindless slaughter one another, 6 great leaders gathered together decided to stop spilling each others blood, and instead use one anothers strength and intelligence to further their goals and ends. This is the point that I fall away from the general thinking, I perceived the Dhakaani as being Lawful Neutral in alignment more than anything. A tyrant that rules out of sheer greed or that rules a nation of selfish citizens wouldn't survive, they'd be so preoccupied with bettering their own station within the society they wouldn't focus on the betterment or growth of the society. Alignment among the Dhakaani would probably run the full spectrum, but the nation as a whole would have to be Neutral in order to account for it's ultimate size and duration. That's why my view has always been that the greed and lust for power in the modern goblinoids was a parting gift from the Daelkyr that sought to twist the minds of the Dhakaani they made war upon.
eehamburg 10-27-06, 11:37 AM	You know what ... I am not getting into an argument over fantasy stuff that is all just made up anyways. If you have a difference of opinion, that's fine. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Nothing to get your panties all tied in a knot.
Darth Syntax 10-27-06, 11:50 AM	I agree with Goblin_Pride about the Empire being Lawful Neutral in nature (and i concieve of it as activily neutral rather than passivly so, with the notions of 'good' and 'evil' being seen as a kind of philosophical cop-out. Most of the philosophical schools did not believe in any form of 'morality' as we understand it, but placed great emphasis on 'ethics.' I should pobably write something up on this at some point . . . .). While there were aspects of the Empire that could be seen as 'evil' in the eyes of modern khorvairans (leagalized assassination, slavery of many forms and so forth), the empire was not inherently oppressive in the distopian sense, nor was it the plaything of selfish and arbitrary leaders. It was also known for its extensive public works, wide-spread education and a degree of social mobility based upon merit, rather than birth. the idea of tyrants and hereditary monarchies really dosen't interest me, mostly because they have been very well explored in litterature (and fantasy litterature in particular), whereas a complex beurocratic state with internal workings as complex as the finest of clocks (and I admit that I don't comprehend even a useful fraction of Dhakaani government) are not so well represented. Well, more later
eehamburg 10-27-06, 02:49 PM	I agree with Goblin_Pride about the Empire being Lawful Neutral in nature (and i concieve of it as activily neutral rather than passivly so, with the notions of 'good' and 'evil' being seen as a kind of philosophical cop-out. Most of the philosophical schools did not believe in any form of 'morality' as we understand it, but placed great emphasis on 'ethics.' Well that is something that I hadn't thought of before ... a society based purely upon ethics ... that leads to some interesting takes ... Just had a bunch of ethics seminars each year at work ...good ol' Boeing....well ...I think that this can have some application now....hmmmmm? a complex beurocratic state with internal workings as complex as the finest of clocks (and I admit that I don't comprehend even a useful fraction of Dhakaani government) are not so well represented. Another interesting idea ... I wonder how such a society would be maintained... especially for that long ... However, is this similar to how ancient China was run? by bureaucracy?
Darth Syntax 10-27-06, 06:52 PM	Another interesting idea ... I wonder how such a society would be maintained... especially for that long ... However, is this similar to how ancient China was run? by bureaucracy? ArcTan could probably tell you far better than I how china functioned in the Dynastic periods, but I do know that durring the Ming Dynasty there was quite the growth of the bureaucracy and centralization in general. Now, onto the issues of bureaucracy (divine Aureon I hate that word, I never spell it right and it always looks wrong, *mutters something about english borrowing french words and crazy spellings*). *ahem*. The Dhakaani bureaucracy was divided into several different groups, currenty I know of two major ones, the civil servants, neitelshonaktt and the courts neshonakt kďkďligetään. The civil servants were effectivly office holders, clerks, and other functionaries. They drew up the documents, reviewed them , revised them, and generally kept track of just about every piece of data relavant to the functioning of the empire. Record keeping was very highly prized and filing systems boardered on a minor art form. The clerks, the archivists, and most of the civil servants who dealt directly with data were,on the whole, goblins. This was part of the genius of the Dhakaani system, for goblins (in my envisioning) possess a strong anylitical bent but don't much care for social interaction and thus make perfect archivists, and people of that sort. They get to play with vast amounts of impersonal data, they get to view people largely as statistics, and they don't have to socialize. I'm fairly sure that the civil servants were divied into varrious 'offices' or some such, each devoted to certian aspects of running the government. There would have to be an army of bureaucrats to keep track of the roads and other infrustructure, as well as to oversee the constuction of new public facilities. Similerly, agriculture would need to be looked after, both for quality standard purposes and to maintain production. The courts functioned primarily to check the power of the civil servants, the Empress, the General, and to maintain and enforce the Law. The courts were generally the final arbiters of of the law, and even the empress and the general were supposed to submit to the wisdom of the courts. The courts were very carefully monitored so as to help insure the impartiality of the magistrates. Of course the real secret of Dhakaani bureaucracy was in the funding. 1) the jobs paid fairly well and 2) No one had enough money to bribe every important member of bureaucracy. -- Hopefully I'll get around to writing up something on Dhakaani jurisprudence, and the like. If there is anything I may have alluded to in my posts that you good people would like to see further explained, let me know and I shall do my best to present it in a reasonable form.
goblin_pride 10-27-06, 08:40 PM	While I agree on the whole, I disagree with one major point. I don't see goblins as being antisocial, more likely they were highly intelligent and viewed their tasks of gathering and managing the massive collections of information together as not only as academic exercise but as vital to the continued functioning of the empire. More than just clerks and typists, the goblins were the real brainpower that made the systems of government operate regularly. That wouldn't be the case all the time, there were obviously Hobgoblins and bugbears that had the mental capacities and ability to maintain records and ledgers, but it was more common for goblins to find such things pleasing work.
goblin_pride 10-27-06, 11:15 PM	"look, it works just like a giant kite, you flew those when you were a kid, right?" A look of relief crossed his face as the scared goblin volunteer in front of him nodded. The sergeant went on to explain, "this is just the same, only we're gonna strap you onto this kite so we can get a set of eyes up in the air to spot the enemy's strongest points in their defenses." Again the volunteer's face blanched and he sort of whimpered a "but sarge, our kites always crashed and broke." The Sargeant quickly replied, "we've got lots of experience with these, we've never lost a goblin spotter. We'll have you up quick so you can see what's inside their walls and down again before you know it. Can't exactly make a full report if this kills you, can you? So relax and enjoy the flight, I've done it myself. It's kinda fun." As a technology of the Dhakaani goblins, I've added simple manned flight. The method of flight most often used is similar to flying a goblin attached to a rather oversized kite when the wind is strong enough to get one aloft. The only real use of it would be to act as a spotter for looking inside or from inside besieged cities. The other form of flight employed by goblins is hang gliding. It didn't take very long to go from folded paper planes that could glide on the air to making something that could carry the weight of a goblin. Originally built to carry a goblin over the top of mountain valleys to the other side quickly and easily, they found many other uses for them as well, some were even for pleasure. Primarily used by goblins born and raised in the mountains, by the end of the empire both technologies were fairly common throughout the empire (common as in known, use was still considered a bit crazy to the non-mountain goblins).
Darth Syntax 10-28-06, 12:03 AM	I agree with you that the goblins were the real brain power of the empire. They were the problem solvers, the analysts, and were generally seen as being the most intelligent form of goblinoid. When i said that goblins preferred not to interact with people, I meant that they really don't need social interaction on the scale that humans seem to. Among goblins, introverts are far more common than not and they find extended social situations to be a bit tiresome. Get a goblin talking about the finer points of alchemical research, planar metaphysics, riddles, clock-work, or the intricacies of fine cuisine and you might want to find yourself a comfy chair and a note pad, but put that self same goblin in a large social situation and you're likely to find him lurking toward the back with a bowl of grapes. What? Grapes are excellent. -- On the issue of flight, I was leaning toward ballooning myself (if only so I can say 'The Golden Age of Ballooning' with a straight face), but I can get behind hang gliding.
goblin_pride 10-28-06, 03:49 AM	On the issue of flight, I was leaning toward ballooning myself (if only so I can say 'The Golden Age of Ballooning' with a straight face), but I can get behind hang gliding. I thought ballooning was just a tad simple. I would've gone that way but I thought about wind currents and figured goblins would've noticed them. Although, ballooning would be the lowland counterpart to the small measure of true flight achieved by the mountain goblins. It's merely a matter of noticing the thermodynamic quality over the aerodynamic.
goblin_pride 10-29-06, 08:25 AM	On the collapse of the Empire, I had a few thoughts that need airing out. With a large, centralized government the sudden, violent removal of the central command and control of the civil authority would possibly contribute to the overall collapse of the Empire but it wouldn't be the final nail in the coffin by a longshot. The loss of the Imperial capital might be able to slow the machine of government to a degree, but the final collapse would have to be affected within the government itself. Not the central government, but in the outer reaches of the civil authority. The governing and legal code would be handled on a local scale in all corners of the empire, so any major cataclysm wouldn't cause the total disruption of Imperial life. That being said, the Daelkyr would more likely than not attempt to get their agents into the government itself during the long, drawn-out war against the Dhakaani. Not to mention that the lords of dust would also be influential in any attempt to overthrow the government from within. Either one would create a level of distrust from one clan or tribe to another and basically plant the seeds of destruction for the Dhakaani Empire as a whole. With leaders inside the government working at cross purposes for their masters (LoD or Daelkyr) the Empire's ability to function as a uniform government would be seriously curtailed. And by curtailing the government's ability to function, roads and buildings fall into disrepair, armies don't have the level of supply needed to maintain the campaigns against the Daelkyr and the borders are slowly eaten away by threats both inside and out. Long after the threat of the Daelkyr dismembering the empire as a whole is gone, the pro-empire and anti-empire factions within the leadership of the empire are free to wage war against one another without any outside threat to them. The whispers in the ear of both factions (the lords of dust, most likely) would be free to spread the seeds of discontent widely within both the heart and the fringes of the Empire as a whole, effectively stirring up a state of civil war that would break the empire in a way that even the Daelkyr invasion couldn't. From this final splintering of the Dhakaani, we have a fragment of the pro-Imperial faction going into hiding in the mountains that were always the safe havens of the clans loyal to the Imperial bloodline. The clans and tribes not loyal to the imperial bloodlines stayed in the open, to meet the threat of the human arrival on the continent. With the human arrival, the disunited cities and tribes didn't stand much of a chance of taking on the threat of human colonization and were wiped out and scattered.
lordalm 10-29-06, 03:27 PM	Hobgobs don't actually take the Cha penalty that D&D often likes to stick on "ugly" races (not that I like the whole low-Cha = ugly stereotype anyway, but whatever.) They're described as being tall, lanky and feral-looking, but not big and overmuscled like Orcs. Sure, the skin is discolored (from a human perspective) and the teeth are fanglike and the eyes are slit and animal-like (from a human perspective), but none of that would prevent a hobgoblin pinup girl from potentially being sleek, sinuous and sexy (probably in a dangerous, feral way, but some guys go for that). C'mon, we're geeks. We watch geek movies with science fiction aliens and things. Don't tell me you really think that orange skin, scary eyes and big teeth prevent someone from being hot. Nope, think D'abo girls from DS9.
lordalm 10-29-06, 03:30 PM	A book on the goblinoid and orcish races would go over well but it couldn't exactly have just the Eberron-specific material. However, if they put out Races of Empire in addition that WAS Eberron-specific, that would be wonderful, they could add all sorts of very specific campaign material, but where do they draw the line, how many sourcebooks does it take to kill a setting? I prefer to prowl the boards, nicking ideas from here and there to make my own goblins in my campaign much more vibrant, there's something about creating a portion of the setting yourself that makes it fulfilling. To be honest, I think that's part of the reason the dhakaani empire was mentioned alot and fleshed out a little. This is still a game where creativity is important, and adding your part to the world itself is part of the fun of the whole thing as a player or a DM. and for the record, I play a goblin and wrote most of the material our DM uses when dealing with the Dhakaani in our game, because I, like Keith Baker left lots of room for him to add to the material I wrote for him. Hey I think I am that dm....Of course I might have the wrong stunty.....:P
lordalm 10-29-06, 04:16 PM	I've pretty much hobnailed (bad pun, I know) together a crossbreed of Tokugawa era japan, Roman empire and a bit of Assyrian/Babylonian influence to create something workable. I tend to focus on the culture before the laws and practices, for me it's more telling of an empire how they handle their dead and what they celebrate than what the penalty is for thievery and the like. I'd love to be able to post material on things like funerary customs and clan structures to help the rest of the Eberron gaming community. Who knows, maybe between the lot of us we can make something that'll have the folks at Wizards raising an eyebrow, neh? Okay, Hobby if this is you, I your (possible) gm share your vision of the Japanese overtones on the military structure and some of the societal elements. However, from my reading in the published material, it seems obvious that a caste system based on race was in effect. So while not the same, India's caste system would be the closest real world equivalent. To break it down. Hobgoblins were the leaders, thinkers and inventors by and large. The goblins served as the menials and most of the grunt labor. Bugbears, heavy labor and the trained berserker/one man assault force of the military. Which in the information provide on the clans claiming to be heirs is how they describe things going on. The more contemporary goblinoids kind of trying to live a little like the 5 kingdoms due to the conversion of the race to the Soverign Host. Well the Dark Six mostly....
lordalm 10-29-06, 04:46 PM	Two thousand years pass between the fall of the Dhakaani Empire and the arrival of humans on Khorvaire, though. And the way the timeline in ECS states it, the empire is "shattered", so I see the humans arriving from Sarlona encountering goblinoids that are in a similar state as they are in the present game time. Also looking at the timeline, the first mention of the Daelkyr War is 4,000 years before the final collapse of the Dhakaani Empire. Perhaps before the Daelkyr War, the Dhakaani were as Darth Syntax wrote, but afterward they declined into my vision of the Empire, until they finally "shattered by in-fighting and civil strife." Maybe this was the Daelkyr's doing? They seem the type to change their tactics from open fighting to a more cold war where they undermine the structures of the goblin civilization. I just want to make sure you know that I am not trying to be a contrarian, this is really interesting to me (and I'm getting some ideas for some adventures, to boot! :) ) Actually my take on that was the Lords of Dust who would see any mortal organization being able to take on the likes of the Dalyker as a threat to their power. From some of the books that have been published, its obvious that the demons had an effect on the Giants and may have had a hand in thier deteriation prior to the dragon flight that dropped into the pre stone age. I have also suspected that the Lords of Dust may have "invited" the Quori and Dalyker to Eberron to deal with something beyond them. Not see a real threat from either source to themsleves. After all, in the SoX it states that the Quori civilization underwent a some sort of change that wiped all previous knowledge from the war with the giants, beyond that there was one. And that may have been learned since that time. It was indicated that it was part of the natural cycle of the dream plane and not an outcome of the sundering performed by the giants. The demons would have probally just welcomed the Dalyker with open arms....
lordalm 10-29-06, 04:53 PM	Hmm, civil service exams, I hadn't considered that. I went with a bit more rustic approach, with provinces apportioned by census and governors in each province appointed based on merit. and those governors in turn would have to travel to the Capitol every year to vote yeah or nay on the continued rule of the Imperial seat and small council. That way each province would be a mirror in miniature of the way the empire as a whole ran. The Governors would be chosen from among the actual working population of a given village, city or province that way the civil authority would be represented in the chief seat with the military serving them. I never thought to make the position of Empress/Emperor non-hereditary but that approach would make more sense. It makes the imperial seat simply the supreme governor of the entire empire. I had thought that each governor and the general of a province would give equal voice to both sides in the decision to maintain or remove a given head of one branch or the other. On the idea of the judicial, I never really gave it much of a thought. I had always figured on the governor and general of provinces making the decisions as they came up and the head of each village doing the same. I like yours better because it adds an additional level of authority I hadn't pictured. I do like the idea of universities and institutes of higher learning being in every major city to produce an educated element to the culture. In 11,000 years they would have a huge quantity of material as far as history, literature and philosophy are concerned. So it makes sense that they would have schools geared towards teaching it and that would be the place where the civil service exams are held. And on a final note, go look up agnostic and atheist and learn the difference. The Empire was agnostic meaning it didn't espouse one god or another, the empire didn't have an imperial cult, it would've accepted any god that the people of the empire followed (up to and including worshipping the worm in the bottom of a bottle of Mescal, but you didn't hear that from me) I think that there were probally imperial dynasties over the course of the 11,000 years. Probally one blood line of the 6 kings (they were the basis of the Empire from my reading, the one who brought them together being the first emperor [and not female either]) would replace another as preceived weakness became an unbearable temptation to one of the others. Politics, got to love it. Going back to the Japanese theme that seems to stick with these guys. They had warlords that helped finally break up the empire after the Dalyker, it may have taken 4,000 years and maybe a nudge or two from the Lords of Dust. But politics did the empire in.
lordalm 10-29-06, 05:05 PM	On the time-line: The extreme length of the Dhakaani Empire (with a history longer than recorded human history which goes back to the Sumerians in circa 3,000 bce) does provide several 'issues' with regards to the creation of a believeable historical outline. The four thousand year period of decline after the Daelkyr wars being one of the most problematic. I would imagine that the outlying regions of the empire would be prone to increased strife and the like, while the core of the empire (centered around the region we would now call northern central Breland and southern Thrane: Starilaskar, Sigilstar, Vathirond etc.) would have held out much longer before fading away when Karrn the Conqueror whipped up anti-goblinoid sentiment as a tool of his failed quest to bring all of Khorvaire under his control. Hopefully I'll have more on this sort of thing later -- I assume you are directing this comment as my version of the empire, and the conception of loyalty to the abtractions of the Law (which is not to be confused with the alignment of the same name) and the State. Believe me when I say I know the difference between atheism and agnosticism, and I also know that the two positions (and their varrious forms) are not mutually exclusive. Moreover, my conception of the empire was of an activly agnostic (and generally ignostic) state. The official line on this was something to the effect of 'gods? we are not interested in gods, we do not know if they even exist. What we are interested in are the pragmatic concerns of life: how to create order, how to govern justly, how to live acording to universal laws of reason and in accordance with wisdom. The gods are irrelivant.' The key here is that to the Dhakaani the gods do not matter. If they exist well bully for them, if not, *shrug* dosen't change a thing. Loyalty to the state isn't exactly a proxy religion (that's more the job of the philosophical schools). The empire was a state based on law codes, not on the personal power of a monarch, and while these laws were not venerated as 'holy things' they were considered to be 'wise things' that kept the powerful from exploiting the people, a very good thing indeed. If you want to worship some god or other in the empire, fine, no one is stopping you, but they aren't going to help you out either. But the vast majority of the population has other things on their mind. They would rather argue over whether or not the government will be re-paving their roads soon, or discuss the latest opera in a tea-house long into the night. By the time of the Reign of the Nine Golden Generals (the golden age of art and culture just before the horrific invasions from Xoriat) most imperial citizens were activly agnostic and had been so for generations. -- Well, more on all of this later; I must be off. I must have misread something, I am pretty sure from my readings that the Eberron design team painted the Empire and its surviors as "don't belive in gods" types. Ala the Dirge Singer fluff. With the "modern" goblinoids given to worshipping gods and the like. Note thier 16 gods before the Sovereign Host coming in and "converting" the goblinoids. Mostly to the Dark Six from the fluff text.
lordalm 10-29-06, 05:07 PM	As to the lack of healing magic, I don't forsee this as being a problem. For one, bards can heal, and it is well documented (even outside the confines of my head ) that the Dhakaani had a strong bardic tradition. Additionally, artificers (which the empire did indeed have a great number of) would be more than capable of crafting the varrious items needed for the purposes of healing. Now that is what can be done according the rules as they exist: an avenue worth exploring (in my mind) would be the use of advancced forms of alchemy (truely more than just potion brewing back in the imperial period) as a basis for real medical practice. Personally, I have never liked or trusted healing magic. I want to know that my doctor has an intellectual understanding of what they are doing to me, none of this hand waving and *poof* you're healed. Granted, it works and thats all very well and good (and I'll take it if you've got it), but I would much rather go to a physician than cleric for my healing needs. The Dhakaani share this view with me, and moreover they often distrusted divine magic in general; beliving it to be irrational and governed neither by the sublime rules of musical harmony,as was bardic music, nor the internal rules of language and formulae, as were wizardry and alchemy. All of this is not to say that the Dhakaani were rationalist-materialists, they were often not. They had more than their fare share of superstitions and weird practices, rituals, ceremonies, and the like. The difference between these Dhakaani rituals and those of other goblinoid states, as well as most non-goblinoid states, was the conspicuous absence of invocations of the divine. Certianly many festivals, holidays, and rituals had their roots in the old polytheistic religions of the pre-Dhakaani period, but over the centuries these slowly changed into either civic festivals, or into cultural practices that very often were inexplicable even to those who performed them. More on all of this at some yet-to-be-decided date. Ohhh, awww. Like how this guy thinks on this one....
lordalm 10-29-06, 05:22 PM	I've been toying with the Funerary customs just mulling them over in my head. Without an afterlife, people tend not to build tombs to inter their dead. I thought creamation would be the most likely but that draws away a sizable chunk of possible ruins to explore. What I suggest to replace it is funerary caches, rather than having tombs for the body of the deceased, the Dhakaani built storehouse/shrines in which the personal belongings of the dead were placed in honor of their position in the community. Certain items are obviously going to be left out but after a few generations the funeral caches of the more martial clans will be absolutely huge arsenals of weapons and armors hidden from view to bury the memory of the dead but still preserving items of power. The obvious need to protect such a cache would be the sole reason for the same traps that would protect tombs. And it gives the DM carte blanche to leave little presents buried along the mountain passes for players to stumble across. What do you think? Again, my take on the published material. It seemed to me as to thier burial practices revovled a little around ancestor worship, at least as far as that would go. The Dirge Singers being the keepers of the histories and (maybe) speakers to/for the dead. Probally close to the way the Valenar do things but without the whole "being the incarnation of the guy who was really great at someting back on Xendrix against the giants." A cool background by the way, but flies in to the face of logic for me. I mean I am supposed to be the born again version of some other cool guy. So was he a born again cool guy or can you have an orginal? I mean he had to come from some where. Is Fred The Elf the guy next to me a cool guy in the making? But I suspect myself of being on a tangent.....
lordalm 10-29-06, 05:57 PM	now for something I use in my own game, "In the days of the first empress of the Dhakaan, her Imperial majesty chose from among the goblins 13 to serve as her personal bodyguard. These 13 became known as the Elo'khesh or Silent Sons. As they married and grew into a clan by their own right they were given the task of harnessing new lands to the empire's needs. Among the Elo'khesh, one can read the position of a given goblin by the facial markings of that goblin. Tattooed over the right eye are the names of a goblin's father, mother and place of birth written top to bottom, left to right in column form. The name of an individual and the place of his first testing are located on the left cheek. The tattoo on the right cheek is the designation of his place within the clan's power structure, his first mark will be one of the Elo'khesh. The marks are in ascending order of importance, Archer, spearman, builder, herdsman(tender of animals) and Farmer (son of the soil). After proving his merit a goblin may be given the honorific of Daru'khesh or Silent Father. It's a rank comparable to anything from a sergeant to a lord among the pinkskin races. A Daru'khesh will have an additional tattoo on the right cheek denoting his advanced status, the marks are in ascending order of importance, Honorable brother (veteran), Master archer, Master spearman, Engineer, Tactician, master herdsman and Master farmer. The Esteemed Silent Father is the master of all the Daru'khesh of a given mark in a geographic region spanning no more than one hundred fifty miles at most. The title is given to a goblin by the head of the clan in a province after a vote by all the Daru'khesh of that mark. There is no Esteemed for the mark of Honorable Brother. The Impressive Silent Father is the head of the clan for a given province and is chosen from among the Esteemed of the clan by silent vote. He's the de facto ruler of all lands controlled by the clan in the province. The tasks of applying the Empire's justice and overseeing the testing fall on his shoulders. For the most part, the Elo'khesh simply rebuild and refortify farmsteads outside of the Dhakaani holds in the Seawall mountains. Defending those farmsteads from the predations of the more barbaric tribes that raid into the mountains looking for goblin slaves and easy plunder. The one exception to this are the black wanderers, the order of the 13. When a Daru'khesh wishes he can travel to the clan's hold in Volaar Draal and volunteer for the order. Members of the order of the 13 were, historically the defenders of the Empresses' palaces and regalia. Since the collapse of the empire, they've donned black cloaks and bear black banners in recognition that it was the order that lost the crown of the Lhesh Dhakaan. And they'll do so until they recover the regalia of the Empress." I put the average among the Elo'khesh as Fighter 1/Rogue 1 and the average of the Daru'khesh at Fighter 2/Rogue 2. A real nasty surprise for PCs who think they can assualt a farming village because "they're just goblins, how hard can this be?":D Just a note to all those who caught the part about including in our campiagn. GM speaking here. I took what he gave me with open arms. And then reviewed my understanding of how life in Darguun is. Break down. A loosley knit group of goblin only tribes in the Sea Walls with some curious beliefs by anyone outside of there, hard to reach and nothing of value there anyway, homes. I can feel an email coming my way any time now.....But I like the nasty goblin figther thief parts. Perhaps they are source tribes for the Silent Wolves? They being one of the few groups from the old empire that exists today and has dealings on a semi-regular basis with the outside world. Probally uses goblin_pride's people as cannon fodder. But don't tell them that. The tatoo part is something that I liked but I haven't been working into the campaign as I should. I keep seeing clean shaven goblins in my head....
lordalm 10-29-06, 06:00 PM	I used Khesh to follow more closely to KB's dragonshard articles on the Taarka'khesh and sharaat'khesh, silent wolves and silent blades respectively. But I'm rather glad you enjoyed it, I wrote that one out to give my own DM a nasty surprise to his players the first time they accosted a group of goblin farmers. Zhonn is silence according to the OHD lexicon however Daru is listed as Father, I've annotated my copy to note that it's familiar rather than formal You know we are in Darguun right now....
lordalm 10-29-06, 06:17 PM	Now that's the fun stuff, but KB already gave us canonical reference to Dhakaani epic poetry so I assumed it would run the gamut from the Finnish saga to Homer's epics with a bit of Chaucer and Bocaccio's piecemiel storytelling mixed in for flavor. And with the image I had of the Dhakaani warriors being cultured and educated as well as schooled in the martial, I sort of envisioned a literary history where even the greatest Dirgesingers wouldn't be able to remember even a fraction of what the culture had to offer. I know the warrior poet image is overdone in fantasy fiction, however, I think an appreciation of poetry in the least would be viewed as a sign of worthiness to command or rule in the height of empire. Back the Japanese flavor, samurai were expected to be poets as well as warriors. With the influx of Buddism in China, poetry became something of symbol of enlightenment for the unenlightened (that last is a very rough concept grasp from a movie, had Bia Ling in it, sort of squel to the "Journey into the West" that was done. I have no first hand knowledge of the aforementioned literary work. But I should get off my dead, you know what, and find a copy and read it.)
lordalm 10-29-06, 06:55 PM	I would make the dominance of the oral tradition more as a matter of necesity and the epic poems simply a memory tool to prepare the mind for carrying messages across an empire under siege by enemies. An enemy can read a dispatch, but a goblin carrying the message in his memory doesn't have to worry about someone spotting a letter in his satchel. (an obvious Fahrenheit 451 rip-off but it's such a good idea) As for the lack of historical reference in the law books, that could just be that no one has found one of the Imperial Great Libraries. Again, the epics would be good practice for remembering the law codes and historical matter far better than lugging huge collections of books everywhere an official went. And it could also be no one went looking for them either. Its been established that the Dhakanni had artificers. But the big push is for the secrets of Xendrix. Racial predjudice?
lordalm 10-29-06, 07:15 PM	Something we have to remember when discussing the empire's epics. We are talking about an empire that existed at it's height for 11,000 years, that doesn't include the building up or the decline. According to the timeline in the ECS it was -38,000 when the goblinoid kingdoms began forming and -16,000 when the Dhakaani unified all the kingdoms into one empire. That's like the warring states period in China lasting 22,000 years. Add in the -5,000 for the start of the collapse and the +998 that the campaign starts in and how many years worth of literature and culture are we dealing with again? I realize the Empire was shrinking for the last 6k years or so, but do you think that stopped dirgesingers from composing new material as well? So the figure from start to finish is closer to 39,000 years instead of 11,000. The greatest library in all of the empire would cover acres if not miles of land and still only hold a fraction of what was written over their long history. A thousand apologies for the overbearing history lesson, but I thought it was needed to understand the scope and grandeur of the variety of possible literature. So you need a library the size of the continent your standing on huh? Well if I was an artificier, why put it all down on paper. Use the equivalnet of the crystal spell books from the ECS and wala you have solved your storage needs. Right magic/infusions and a big enough crystal. Hrmm, guess we know where those spell books come from now don't we. Though it was probally the giants, the goblinoids probally explored Xendrix too....
lordalm 10-29-06, 07:32 PM	It's the same *ridiculous* degree of time-extension that you also have to deal with in, for example, the Star Wars series and games set in that milieu (where the Galactic Republic supposedly existed for over 10,000 years before falling, and recorded history goes back several thousand years before the founding of the Republic, and the population of the galaxy consists of hundreds of thousands of trillions of sentients, and... argh.) Although it is a really big deviation from canon to take, I like Darth Syntax's idea of the mythologized timespan of the Empire. It is similar to the inflated senes in China of how long "the Chinese civilization" has existed thanks to the heavily, heavily mythologized first dynasties (the Xia and the Shang) and the grandiose stories of demigod-like culture-heroes and philosopher-kings, which pushes the mythological history of China all the way back to 3000 BC -- when the *actual*, confirmable recorded history of the cultures that became China only goes back to about 1100 BC, and the history of what can actually properly be termed the Chinese civilization really goes back to the First Emperor (200 BC). In other words, through historical exaggeration and mythologization, and reading back into sketchy, little-known eras in history ideas that came about much later (the idea of a Confucian Mandate of Heaven, the idea of a unified Chinese civilization, the idea of an unbroken lineage of Sons of Heaven as Emperors) the "history" of China has been doubled in length in the minds of most casual observers from what it actually was. China can only really be said to be about 2000 years old, and yet people quote the proverbial statement about China being a "5000-year-old" empire all the time. Probably something similar happened with Dhakaan. Indeed, the grandiose, all-encompassing ideology of the State here associated with Dhakaan makes it almost seem unlikely that such a thing would *not* happen in Dhakaan -- there would be an overwhelming tendency to exaggerate the empire's age and power and importance, and to attribute all kinds of achievements only vaguely connected with the present-day Dhakaani culture to the overwhelming might of the Empire. And in keeping with that theme, its possible that what current historians count as the Dhakaani empire actually includes the build up period and that one of the 6 kingdoms was literally callled Dhakaani, or there was an ancient city state by that name that is lost to history today. But whose name extends all the way back to the formation of what would eventually become the empire. Of course it also possible that external forces helped keep it going that long. Or the goblinoids are actually able to live in peace with each other unlike the humans.....
lordalm 10-29-06, 07:48 PM	On a completely unrelated note to the previous, I was thinking this morning about personal honor. I would say that the Dhakaani have some degree of personal honor although not quite as rigid and formalized as the Japanese medieval model. It would take a failure on a monstrous level to require a goblinoid to ritually disembowel themselves, however a suicidal headlong rush into the face of the enemies of the empire would make far more sense. Stripping away the concept of personal honor removes the core being of what it is to be a goblin, hobgoblin or bugbear. "Yes, they're violent, yes they can be brutish and yes, they can be bullying, however they are Dhakaani and have honor you mindless savage." By that, I mean the duels in the street in modern Darguun may be no more violent than the duels in the street during the height of Empire but during the Imperial period it wouldn't be quite as hair-trigger to set one in motion. The thought of completely removing the possibility of two goblins having it out in the streets over an insult completely alters the race, constraint and patience would be at the core of the goblin's thinking, but ultimately if one side or the other is left losing face a fight is inevitable. Additionally, a Dhakaani goblin wouldn't be as quick to draw a weapon because they would see themselves and the other in the duel as imperial assets, not to be squandered. So most duels would end up as a harsh exchange of words rather than an exchange of blows. My take on that particular bit of lore from the Samurai was that the Dhakaani hobgoblins wouldn't have done it. The empire was lawful, but still of an evil bent as are the creatures who composed it. So a hobgoblin having lost face would seek to either eliminate the source of embarresment or bribe his or her way back into the good graces of whoever. Failing that, time to hightail it. I mean they have the Silent Wolves for a reason. Also remember that while the goblins made up the majority in the empire. They were lower on the totem pole. The hobgoblins ran the show. They held all the perceived political power. You might assume that the Silent Wolves didn't have some political mojo. I do think they did, but definetly not in the face of the hobgoblin run empire. Survivability, think ninjas here folks. You may send them to kill a samuari, you didn't stand against all of the samuari with the ninja. Bamboo armor trumps pajams everytime.
lordalm 10-29-06, 07:53 PM	On a hopefully not totally unrelated note... After having read this - and having my mind blown by what I read, you guys are doing an excellent job - my mind wandered back to a question I've had for quite some time. Why are the elves capable of channeling their ancestors and the goblins are not? Things like the revenant blade, the deathless and what-have-you are all reserved for elves. However, with a history as great and far-reaching as that of the goblins (whether to go with the mythologically drawn-out 3500 years, which already is a hell of a long time or the full 11000), wouldn't it make sense for some of them to have the ability to access the lost wisdom of their ancestors? I was thinking about a prestige class there, not exactly sure what the focus should be. But the main premise is a goblin who through study and discipline (or maybe through magical means) manages to regain some of the knowledge and wisdom of his ancestors. It doesn't even have to be combat-related like the revenant blade. Maybe a class for bards... If only one - maybe a PC goblin - indeed uncovered such power, it could lead to huge complications as I don't believe all goblins want someone who knows the truth, not even those who glorify the ancient empire - you don't want someone pointing at you and saying, " If you want the empire back, start acting like you do!" Especially if you know that person is right... Anyway, just my 2 cents. Any further ideas on that would be greatly appreciated. I have no idea if there is "talk with the ancient dead" bard spell or not, but I definetly see that as a very real possibility of the dirge singers. There is a bard related prestige class in the Liber Mortis, I think, but I am not sure if it would fit the flavor of the Dirge Singers.
lordalm 10-29-06, 07:55 PM	Does it really? If you want to give the Dhakaani this kind of duel-in-the-street honor, it's up to you. Frankly I'd rather channel the Dhakaani's martial aggression into fields I personally see as more Lawful and less wasteful. I don't really agree with the idea that any *cultural* aspect of a race needs to remain for that race to have the same flavor. Really big, broad emotional tendencies, sure -- goblinoids are aggressive in the general sense, dwarves are loyal and honorable in the general sense, elves are passionate and fey in the general sense, whatever. But, for example, the Valenar in my Eberron don't do a lot of singing and dancing around campfires in the woods. The Orcs in my Eberron are *not* automatically capable of beating themselves into mindless bloodlust and *not* automatically fond of mutilating their own bodies as signs of martial prowess. Just as there's nothing that Humans automatically are in a campaign setting (except that they're usually a common race), I don't like attaching specific cultural factors to a race that you can't peel off. I wouldn't mind seeing a setting where Dwarves don't give a crap about gold at all but reserve their careful, dutiful natures for something else, for instance. Its called Dark Sun.
lordalm 10-29-06, 07:59 PM	On further reflection I;ve had a bit of a retraction of my thinking on personal honor. I think it's likely that a hobgoblin, goblin or bugbear would likely slaugther a member of any other race in the street for even the slightest provocation, but dueling among themselves wouldn't exactly fit with the overall theme of the empire. Quarrels among the goblinoids would more likely be solved in a less violent, more creative fashion. Something along the lines of say a game of chess or another form of strategy game that would not only settle matters of honor but also hone the tactical thinking skills of both the goblinoids involved. On another note, I was looking at the map in the ECS and something hit me. Rhukaan Draal is the seat of power of the Rhukaan'tash tribe of hobgobs in the modern Darguun. There's also a city name Volaar Draal which would fit the Kech Volaar nicely. And with the pattern grasped firmly in my mind it leaves us part of the names of a few other Dhakaani tribes to play with, Paluur Draal is in Zilargo, Yurkuun Draal is in Breland, Cazhaak and Suthar Draal are both in Droaam (I'm not even going to speculate on what the city was named where great crag sits) and Taarn Draal in the shadow Marches. There's a brief reference to Sharn being the dhakaani city of Ja Sharaat in the PGtE but I would be tempted to make it Sharaat Draal and call that the original home of the Kech Sharaat. The modern "tribes" of goblinoids aren't like the traditional tribes of D&D, they're more like an allied conglomeration of clans(which are the traditional D&D tribes). The clans are the interrelated collection of bloodlines that form a sort of hyper-extended family. So each Dhakaani goblinoid will see himself as a member of his family, bloodline, clan and tribe in addition to being a Dhakaani. That being said, the Dhakaani would be the bloodline that apparently through marriage, coercion, politicking and whatever other means they could achieve, managed to unite all the other clans into the Empire as it was. So while Dhakaani is the label of the empire, it's more properly the surname and bloodline that united and wore the crown as the head of the tribe of tribes. The splintering of the modern dhakaani tribes is thus just a result of removing the central command and control structure of the empire and the isolation of millenia (3-5, depending on the source). So it would stand to some reason that the modern Dhakaani descendants are attempting to unify under their control over another tribe's claim of a Dhakaani bloodline. The only thing I can think of to create this strife would be that the Dhakaani line was merged into the hereditary lines of all the tribes under the empire's control. That creates a bit of a muddy situation in that all the higher-ups in every tribe would have a claim to the crown based on marriages from multiple millenia ago. That certainly rambled on all over the place, didn't it? You have just explained the issues of heredity in modern and midevil europe. No wonder they had so many wars....
lordalm 10-29-06, 08:01 PM	" you think you're fit to rule the empire do you, little Dhakaani?" The sneer crossed the old Librarian's voice before finding it's way home to his face. "In this book you'll find the names and bloodlines of thousands with better claims to the crown than yours", he said as he threw the book down on his copying desk. "and in these books are the histories of the deeds of better goblins than you who thought themselves better to rule as well" The old librarian stirred up a cloud of dust as he picked up a ragged old tome from the shelf to his right. "here, boy, read the words of the last general of the Dhakaani who thought he was better to rule than the empress he thought was good only for breeding. And pay particular attention to the last page, it's the note by his gaoler detailing the extent and duration of his execution" I was going to use this as a teaser for a blurb on the dhakaani legal system but my mind went completely blank after typing it all out, the librarian is just such a wonderful character, I thought you might enjoy the flavor text. I do, except for the whole goblin bit. It would have to be a hobgoblin he was talking to. Goblins did not run the show, except in maybe rare circumstances. At least thats my impression from the published material.
lordalm 10-29-06, 08:06 PM	I would say that the Undying Councillors are only able to continue to exist because the whole nation of Aerenal really strongly believes, has *faith*, that their death is not supposed to happen, that the real duty of the universe is to keep such noble serves preserved on Eberron for all time -- and it is this faith that opens the way to Irian to keep them alive. (And keep in mind that there was a pre-existing physical phenomenon, a massive Manifest Zone of Irian, in Aerenal that makes this possible in the first place. Making a Deathless might not even work on Khorvaire without the presence of such a Manifest Zone.) Actually one of the novels written has a deatless that came about in the mournland, after the mournland happened. If I remember that order of events correctly. She defienetly was in Cyre when she did it if before the mournland. So apparently, the manifest zone just made it easier to discover.....
lordalm 10-29-06, 08:13 PM	Well, they don't. Not exactly. The Deathless are ancestors that have been preserved using divine magic and are still on this plane. The Tairnadal, by contrast, don't preserve the spirits of their ancestors *literally* -- they gain access to some floating source of memory and power that they associate with their ancestors, but only really serves to give you the attributes that you think of your ancestor most importantly possessing -- his wisdom, his great strength, his loyalty and honor, whatever -- without actually putting you in contact with anything like a real personality and sentience. In other words, death and wasting away in Dolurrh are a simple reality of life in Eberron. In order to counter it, one has to *oppose* this simple reality somehow, and doing so requires divine magic, which is only accessible by *faith*. I would say that the Undying Councillors are only able to continue to exist because the whole nation of Aerenal really strongly believes, has *faith*, that their death is not supposed to happen, that the real duty of the universe is to keep such noble serves preserved on Eberron for all time -- and it is this faith that opens the way to Irian to keep them alive. (And keep in mind that there was a pre-existing physical phenomenon, a massive Manifest Zone of Irian, in Aerenal that makes this possible in the first place. Making a Deathless might not even work on Khorvaire without the presence of such a Manifest Zone.) Similarly the Tairnadal are like more traditional Clerics in that they really *believe* in their ancestors' presence -- they have the irrational, faith-based belief that every good thing they accomplish in life is only a reflection of something greater their patron ancestor did long ago. It's only this constant meditation -- the fact that they think about *everything* in terms of ancestors -- that allows them to draw on their "ancestral spirit" to empower deeds that, to them, reflect their ancestors' greatness. An external observer would argue -- as, indeed, Khorvairian scholars sometimes do -- that this is a myth -- that it's only the Tairnadal Elf's *belief* in his ancestor, who may or may not have even really existed, that powers this process, that focusing on an ancestor is a psychological charm that "psychs them up" in a particular way, that -- as a Khorvairian skeptic might argue about any religion -- it's only *faith* that powers the process, not a literal ancestor spirit. After all, it's only on faith that they believe ancestor spirits persist in any form at all. We *know* that the first thing that happens to spirits when they die is that they waste away in Dolurrh. We know nothing about what happens after that. So given that the whole process is powered by faith, a civilization that chooses not to buy into that *particular* belief system is unlikely to replicate the same sort of divine magic as the Elves of Aeren. And the whole "agnostic" nature of the Empire of Dhakaan that means they don't have divine casters at all -- never mind that there's no Irian manifest zone conveniently nearby that they can use -- would seem to preclude an Aeren-style ancestor worship. The way I read the Dhakaani, they revere the memory of their ancestors but bear the strong conviction that their ancestors are *gone*. You bring honor to your ancestors not by keeping them embalmed and preserved (a la the Aereni) or by defining everything you do in your life based on them (a la the Tairnadal) but by revering them and then striking out to make your *own* life noble and worthwhile in its own way and adding new, unique episodes to the story of your family's history. Your ultimate loyalty is not to any particular ancestor of yours but to the Law and the State, to which you owe your own, unique duty separate from those who came before. I would say that makes the most sense. I just can't shake the thought that the dirge singers have some sort of congress with the dead. Maybe the dirge part of thier name.....
lordalm 10-29-06, 08:18 PM	Found another old bit, this time excerpted from “Goblins and Worgs,” first chapter of the treatise Symbiotic Cultures of Khorvaire, by Phex, Sage-Professor of Comparative Culture at Morgrave University:Worg-riding has been associated more with goblins than hobgoblins, but I get the impression it is not a new arrangement. What would the status of worgs (and possibly dire and winter wolves) have been in the Dhakaani empire? Were they a regular part of society? Domesticated or integrated? Or were the worg-riding goblins part of a less common, non-Dhakaani culture that flourished when the end came? I could see it going either way. My take would be that they would have made up the cavalry of the empire, I see the bugbears and hobgoblins being foot based troops like the roman legions. With the light fast goblins making up the light infantry and cavalry. The other two might have been demesticated as well, though I see the winter wolves being a nod to the northen conditions in Khorvaire than anything else. Even then they would probally be for elite soldiers or units.
lordalm 10-29-06, 08:36 PM	Hmmm... WORD BEARER [Racial] Your actions keep the lore of the Dhakaani alive. Prerequisites: Goblinoid suptype, member of Kech Volaar clan, Strength or Dexterity or Constitution 13+ Benefit: When you take this feat, choose either your Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. This ability's modifier replaces your Intelligence modifier on Craft (armor or stonemasonry) and Knowledge (history) skill checks. Metagaming: Goblinoids don't have an Intelligence penalty, so they don't really need this feat... but it definitely plays to their racial bonuses, and offers incentive for Fighter-types to toe the party line. A DM who were so inclined could specify that the bonus only applies to Knowledge (Dhakaani history). Intersting, but as a gm. NO. :D
lordalm 10-29-06, 08:48 PM	Has anyone put any thought into the lifespan of the Dhakaani goblinoids? The only reason I ask is that the reason for the extremely short lifespan in the previous editions of the game was the brutish, violent nature of their culture and society(at least for hobgobs and bugbears, I believe gobbos may have had short lives because of diet as well). Assuming magical, or as suggested earlier in this thread, a high level of mundane care made available to the general public. Coupled with a peacful (assumed) exsistence. Double or one and half times that listed in the MM.
lordalm 10-29-06, 08:57 PM	On the cuisine of the empire Devising food for the empire has been something I have been working on sense the dawn of my interest in the Dhakaani. I went in a slightly different direction than Goblin_Pride concerning the content of the cuisine, the main difference being my desire to produce Dhakaani cuisine which met most of the following criteria: 1) it must be recognizable as food or food-like 2) it must take into account the various climates found within the empire. 3) it must taste good 4) it must be reproducible (in some form) in my own kitchen, If I so wished. What? I cook and build ancient lost empires for fun, is this wrong? In the empire, food was considered high art, and its preparation and consumption were deemed noble pursuits. In traditionally Dhakaani cuisine, the evening meal (taken usually between 9pm and 12 am so as to allow the heat of the day to die down) is usually a social affair with one's close friends and neighbors partaking of the meal along with any immediate family. The meal is begun with the consumption of a strong, astringent tea (rather like gunpowder green tea with bergamot) so as to cleanse the palate, then the various foods are consumed along with much saule(red wine) but rarely to the point of intoxication. The content of the cuisine itself varied from region to region but several features are universal. 1) the Dhakaani ate no beef, cows having been brought to Khorvaire by the Sarlonan immigrants when they came over some 3,000 years ago. 2) Pork, lamb, duck, pheasant, quail and other birds, were the most common meats consumed by the Dhakaani, although in some regions one would have to add shellfish, spider (tastes a bit like crab really), and fish. 3) goat cheeses were commonly consumed but never in large amounts. Some of these cheeses were rather soft and used in the making of desserts. 4) the principle grains were wheat, barley and corn in the north and central parts of the empire, rice, millet, and wheat is the south. These grains were usually processed in some manner, the exception being rice which was eaten both processed and unprocessed. Corn and wheat were never eaten in their unprocessed state however both were widely used in the making of breads and other staple starches. A food not unlike polenta was rather popular among the people of the central empire. Noodles were also common in the empire and could be made of any of the staple grains. Styles varied by region and by usage. Soup noodles were generally long and moderately wide and could be made of wheat or rice. Noodles which were meant to serve as a base for sauces or for stew-like dishes, were generally made from wheat flour and ribbon like in shape. 5) The cuisine makes liberal use of spices, herbs and other seasonings. Common spices included: cumin, pepper corns of all types, cinnamon, cardamom, cumin, ginger, turmeric, nutmeg, coriander, citrus peel, and chilies of all kinds. Common herbs included: basil (both sweet and hot), cilantro, parsley, thyme, rosemary, lemon grass, tea (used both as a beverage and as a seasoning), mint, sumac, and dill. 6) Nuts were used quite often in Dhakaani cuisine. Nut pastes were used as the base for sauces (rather like korma which uses cashews as well as something like a spicy peanut sauce) and as thickeners. The imperial captial at Hankarash (roughly where Starilaskur is now) was known widely for its nut-based sauces as well as some rather interesting nut beers. 7) Tea and wine were ubiquitous thoughout the empire. Tea was the social beverage of choice (coffee having not been used much at that time) and often people would gather in the tea houses for extended lunches, discussion, and cup after cup of varrious teas. A knowledge of tea, its varieties, proper brewing methods and the like, was considered an essential skill. It would be a poor host indeed who offered their guests a badly made cup of tea. Wine (especially red wines) were much prized in the empire and most citizens of any means at all consumed some wine with their evening meals. -- I would be happy to go on and on about rules of dinning etiquette, utensils, meal structure and the like, but that would probably generate a post the size of a russian novel. In addition, don't forget that while dinosaurs are currently only found in large numbers on the Talenta Plains, they stretched the length and breadth of Khorvaire. So they probally would have been a stable of the diet where available. The goblinoids might have even been the first to domesticate them as opposed to the halflings. Going back to the earlier question concerning worgs and the others as mounts. It would be resonable to assume goblin dinosaur riders, even hobgoblin and bugbear riders on the bigger variety of dinosaurs. Think elphants....
lordalm 10-29-06, 09:02 PM	On the topic of Dhakaani armor and weapons, It strikes me from the material that KB has given us in his dragonshard articles that Dhakaani armors and weapons would be more like the japanese martial gear of the Medieval period. He describes the Hobgoblins as swiftly moving and relying very little on brute force. Broad slashes and almost poetry in motion when wielding a weapon doesn't exectly fit into the medieval european equipment, thus it stands to reason they would wear something more like the Japanese O-yoroi than a suit of European full or half-plate. Armors meant to make use of speed and sudden action with a minimum of protection from savage blows. To quote the warrior-poet and philosopher Arkhuul, "a warrior swift and efficient, needs little protective covering of his body. He will engage an enemy at his pace, rather than the enemy's and will move into range of his swordarm and then quickly out again with one wide sweeping arc and delivering a lethal blow as if doing nothing more than performing the steps of a dance. A simple silk shirt, a vest of reed and leather to give some protection to the innards, perhaps a bit more to cover the thighs and forearms, a true master of this dance of death needs no more...... Throw in Articifer created armors and you really wouldn't need much more. Note that it also possible to have a mix of armour types. A mix of roman and japanese styles. If there craftsmen were as good as they are hinted at (not big on ornamentation or orginallity, one gets the impression that the only reason you had differences in goblinoid cities is the terrain and the march of time on asethics)
goblin_pride 10-29-06, 09:48 PM	I do, except for the whole goblin bit. It would have to be a hobgoblin he was talking to. Goblins did not run the show, except in maybe rare circumstances. At least thats my impression from the published material. Actually, using the word "goblin" in that fluff piece was intended to be derogetory to the hobgoblin being berated.
eehamburg 10-30-06, 10:23 AM	Now, onto the issues of bureaucracy Truly inspirational stuff. As a technology of the Dhakaani goblins, I've added simple manned flight. . Somehow, this makes a lot of sense ... good post On the collapse of the Empire, ...... This is something along the lines of what I was thinking ... I am thinking that a lot of what you guys have been writing should be put together into a book online "The Dhakanni Empire" and I think that it would be a great resource for everyone.
goblin_pride 10-30-06, 12:01 PM	I am thinking that a lot of what you guys have been writing should be put together into a book online "The Dhakanni Empire" and I think that it would be a great resource for everyone. sounds like a good project for you, lemme know when you get done, I'm sure we'll have reams of material for you to add after you're finished.
eehamburg 10-30-06, 12:05 PM	sounds like a good project for you, lemme know when you get done, I'm sure we'll have reams of material for you to add after you're finished. Oh if only I was good at the web and web design ... but alas ... I am merely an aerospace engineer who works on helicopters.... my aim falls oh so short.
goblin_pride 10-30-06, 12:27 PM	A further rambling thought on alignment. The Dhakaani as a whole couldn't have been an evil aligned empire, just for a simple fact of civil strife at the death of the first ruler. As soon as the first emperor died there would be a bloody, violent civil war to determine who would wear the crown next. Now, having said that, it stands to reason that among the remnant tribes, there are going to be whole clans if not the tribes themselves that are going to vary from the core rules as far as alignment goes. I can't really say that one or the other is going to go so far as to be good, but Neutral isn't terribly hard to grasp. Based on the material from the ECS I would put the Kech Sharaat as evil. Attempting to prove the succession through force of arms strikes me as being a tad on the naughty side. I may be completely off-base here, but that's my take on it. The Kech Volaar, while not quite as strong physically are looking to gain the succession through collecting the relics of the lost empire. Not exactly evil in the truest sense, but still a bit heavy on the naughty side. Gathering the power to smite your enemies isn't exactly the same as doing the deed, but it's fairly close. With such obvious differences between the modern and the ancient Dhakaani, we're left with a bit of a puzzle. Could the Lords of Dust plant the seeds of evil that caused the empire to basically shred itself from the inside?
eehamburg 10-30-06, 12:48 PM	Could the Lords of Dust plant the seeds of evil that caused the empire to basically shred itself from the inside? It is quite possible ... especially if they also enticed the Daelkyr to enter a war with the empire .... quite possible indeed.
twelvedrunkenmonkeyz 10-30-06, 12:53 PM	I have to say, I'm not sure exactly who said it, but I like the idea of a "Lost Empires of Khorvaire" idea, detailing orcs, goblinoids, ancient dwarves, and other races. Maybe written in a similar fashion to 5 Nations (still one of the best Eberron books out in my oppinion).
goblin_pride 10-30-06, 12:58 PM	It is quite possible ... especially if they also enticed the Daelkyr to enter a war with the empire .... quite possible indeed. I haven't read any of the material on Xen'Drik yet, did the LoD have anything to do with their little dust-up?
eehamburg 10-30-06, 01:09 PM	I haven't read any of the material on Xen'Drik yet, did the LoD have anything to do with their little dust-up? Don't know ... didn't read it myself ... just hypothesizing.
ArcTan 10-30-06, 10:25 PM	I would say that makes the most sense. I just can't shake the thought that the dirge singers have some sort of congress with the dead. Maybe the dirge part of thier name..... A dirge is what you sing to memorialize the dead to the living after they pass on, not something sung to the dead themselves. Every culture has had some kind of connection to the dead, to their history, and to the past. The Dhakaani are no exception. But I don't think this is something special or unique about them.
ArcTan 10-30-06, 10:25 PM	I haven't read any of the material on Xen'Drik yet, did the LoD have anything to do with their little dust-up? Nothing obvious, but whenever something bad happens you can't ever discount LoD influence.
goblin_pride 10-31-06, 01:13 AM	In addition, don't forget that while dinosaurs are currently only found in large numbers on the Talenta Plains, they stretched the length and breadth of Khorvaire. So they probally would have been a stable of the diet where available. The goblinoids might have even been the first to domesticate them as opposed to the halflings. Going back to the earlier question concerning worgs and the others as mounts. It would be resonable to assume goblin dinosaur riders, even hobgoblin and bugbear riders on the bigger variety of dinosaurs. Think elphants.... I can see them hunting them possibly more for the sport involved than the meat. It fits a "strong, brave warrior motif" but I don't imagine using them as a stable food source. Domesticating them would leave a pretty sizable trace on the modern goblinoids. Why would I "imagine elephants" when the Dhakaani empire covered so many regions with the right climate and terrain to support real elephants?
goblin_pride 10-31-06, 01:34 AM	So you need a library the size of the continent your standing on huh? Well if I was an artificier, why put it all down on paper. Use the equivalnet of the crystal spell books from the ECS and wala you have solved your storage needs. Right magic/infusions and a big enough crystal. Hrmm, guess we know where those spell books come from now don't we. Though it was probally the giants, the goblinoids probally explored Xendrix too.... I have a bit of trouble envisioning everything being worthy of storage on the spell crystal things. Yeah, I'm sure some of the material was, but the value of a spell crystal would make putting all the material in a library on them prohibitive. So yes, I would still imagine libraries that make even Korranberg seem small (but only in very large cities).
Darth Syntax 10-31-06, 02:13 AM	Why would I "imagine elephants" when the Dhakaani empire covered so many regions with the right climate and terrain to support real elephants? Heck, I've had the Dhakaani using war-elephants for some time. The elephants were used both as a kind of mobile siege platform and as general labor (moving trees, that sort of thing).
Tzarevitch 10-31-06, 11:43 AM	I have to say, I'm not sure exactly who said it, but I like the idea of a "Lost Empires of Khorvaire" idea, detailing orcs, goblinoids, ancient dwarves, and other races. Maybe written in a similar fashion to 5 Nations (still one of the best Eberron books out in my oppinion). There is precedence for this too. The Forgotten Realms got just such a book. An Eberron book could include for example: -Lost giant empires of Xen'Drik (in more detail than Secrets of Xen'Drik) -The Dhakanni Empire and the modern goblinoids -The ancient dwarven kingdom that predates the current Mror Holds (the one mentioned in the Dragonshards article). -Ancient orc civilization. -Pre-Galifar human civilization on Sarlona and Khorvaire -Aereni civilization (as a not-dead ancient civilization) -Dragon civilization (assuming they have one) Tzarevitch
eehamburg 10-31-06, 01:25 PM	I can see them hunting them possibly more for the sport involved than the meat. It fits a "strong, brave warrior motif" but I don't imagine using them as a stable food source. Domesticating them would leave a pretty sizable trace on the modern goblinoids. Why would I "imagine elephants" when the Dhakaani empire covered so many regions with the right climate and terrain to support real elephants? Because the dinosaurs are there and why would it not be feasible to say that someone might have domesticated them before the halflings?
Darth Syntax 10-31-06, 01:48 PM	Although it is feasible for some one to have domesticated dinosaurs before the halflings, it seems rather unlikely that the goblinoids would have done so in large numbers. The only dinosaurs we know for sure that live on Khorvaire are relatively small, raptor-like creatures, and some of the smaller quadrupeds. We have no proof (and given the environments it seems rather unlikely) of the existence of large sauropods anywhere other than Xen'Drik and possibly Argonessen. Without large dinosaurs, especially those suitable for herding (from my reading the halflings actually heard tribex and other mammals, they just ride dinosaurs) or for uses as mounts and beasts of burden, it seems unlikely that the Dhakaani would have had much use for them.
goblin_pride 10-31-06, 06:09 PM	Although it is feasible for some one to have domesticated dinosaurs before the halflings, it seems rather unlikely that the goblinoids would have done so in large numbers. The only dinosaurs we know for sure that live on Khorvaire are relatively small, raptor-like creatures, and some of the smaller quadrupeds. We have no proof (and given the environments it seems rather unlikely) of the existence of large sauropods anywhere other than Xen'Drik and possibly Argonessen. Without large dinosaurs, especially those suitable for herding (from my reading the halflings actually heard tribex and other mammals, they just ride dinosaurs) or for uses as mounts and beasts of burden, it seems unlikely that the Dhakaani would have had much use for them. My thinking was more along the lines that the dinosaurs from the Talenta plains were more uncommon the farther west you went from the plains and thus most of the heartland of the Dhakaani Empire wouldn't even know they existed. If you disperse them widely from the Talenta plains, that region starts to lose some of it's native flavor. That's why I said I could see dinosaur (and Halfling) hunting expeditions, but the domestication seemed a bit off as far as flavor goes. But that's just my take on it.....
lordalm 11-01-06, 10:04 AM	Because no matter what you say, it will continue to be difficult to believe simply because of the sheer scale of the history you have to fit inside it. At the very least, coming up with 11,000 years of history for an empire is hard work. I would like to point out that this a "fantasy" world. Even throughing out the tendency to "extend" the life span of people, ala the bible. In the ESC it states that the DEMONS sprung forth from Khyber fully formed and immortal. They did rule for a something like a million years before dragons got up and kicked thier collective buts. I am assuming that there was just more dragons than demons here....;)
lordalm 11-01-06, 10:31 AM	This is what I was getting at ... this is exactly what I believe is happening... And think of the great story line that occurs when the empire slowly re-emerges and becomes a power once again ... how will that change the landscape of Eberron.... not just Khorvaire, but of Eberron itself. Just as a side note. While I don't see the "bloodlines" being an active part of what the Heirs are about. I do see the gilmmer of rebirth of the empire in the king (name escapes me). Its just funny to me that the Heirs can't see a new emperor arising from anywhere but from themselves....:heehee
lordalm 11-01-06, 10:38 AM	This is an excellent point. Thnk of all of the ruins we find ourselves on Earth. They can be hidden under cities or under rubble or under farmland just waiting to be discovered. There are certainly enough TV shows about it to prove that this is possible. This tends to open up the doorway for many adventurers. And in keeping with the theme. Sharn is just the most famous of the old Dhakaani ruins to be built upon by humans. From some of the other published material. The humans that invaded into the goblinoid controlled lands took over the ruins that were still servicible and built upon them. And in a real world parallel they probally would have stripped building materials from sites that they didn't see a use for otherwise (ala the middle ages and the old roman ruins).
lordalm 11-01-06, 12:10 PM	That is a very good point, I completely forgot to take into account later civilizations dismantling the ruins for building materials. And if I had read a little farther down I would have saved my self some typing.....
lordalm 11-01-06, 12:18 PM	This is where you and I agree completely, the empire may have built built for the empress, but all power lay in the hands of the sages, scholars and philosophers. It was the thinkers who held power, their plans were put into action by the generals and it was all done in the name of the Empress. Maximizing the potential of every member of society would've been key to holding an empire together for such an exaggerated timeframe. The thinkers hand down law, the generals provide order and the empress promotes civic pride. And in keeping with the whole short life spans that has gone around a couple of times. Seeing the family, the clan and the empire continue would be thier version of immortality. ASSUMING your even aware of how short your life span is. Think about it, we only live 80 something years with advanced medical care. Do we think about the fact that we'll be dead in x number of years if all goes well? No. Remember, with the short life spans comes the quicker to work, ie: they reach adult hood in half or less the time that a human does. So 6 to 12 years after being born your a fully functioning member of society. Its all a matter of prespective here folks.
lordalm 11-01-06, 12:32 PM	Actually, there's a professor that is fairly certain that part of the means of constructing those simple ol' pyramids was by using kites to help lighten the weight of the blocks. It still came down to sliding them up ramps on rollers, but if they made them lighter by using kites, that's hardly something that our modern society uses commonly, is it? And he did prove it could be done, on the third attempt for a discovery channel documentary, they lifted a 5 ton block using nothing but material available in ancient egypt (to make the kites, that is). There's a simple explanation of a technology that I would call lost, wouldn't you? Now I'm not saying that's like the pharoahs using lasers and such, but it is a form of technology that would seem to have died with them, assuming the hypothesis is right and they did it that way (I'm a bit leery of believing it myself, but the guy did demonstrate how it COULD'VE been done that way). As with all things lost to time. Could have and did are always the sticking points. Why do you think historians walk around any historical context to the Bible, Quaran and Tora like they were land mines. I saw a show on those aforementioned cable shows that a arch. dig was only allowed because it was framed in the context of "real history" and not a search for proof of the Exodus that it was. Arabs hate Jews for some reason....
lordalm 11-01-06, 12:48 PM	Well that is something that I hadn't thought of before ... a society based purely upon ethics ... that leads to some interesting takes ... Just had a bunch of ethics seminars each year at work ...good ol' Boeing....well ...I think that this can have some application now....hmmmmm? Another interesting idea ... I wonder how such a society would be maintained... especially for that long ... However, is this similar to how ancient China was run? by bureaucracy? I have been hinting at that and it also fits with thier having an emperor. The head of the dragon said make it so, and the scales performed for fear of the dragons breath....
lordalm 11-01-06, 01:00 PM	The civil servants were effectivly office holders, clerks, and other functionaries. They drew up the documents, reviewed them , revised them, and generally kept track of just about every piece of data relavant to the functioning of the empire. Record keeping was very highly prized and filing systems boardered on a minor art form. The clerks, the archivists, and most of the civil servants who dealt directly with data were,on the whole, goblins. This was part of the genius of the Dhakaani system, for goblins (in my envisioning) possess a strong anylitical bent but don't much care for social interaction and thus make perfect archivists, and people of that sort. They get to play with vast amounts of impersonal data, they get to view people largely as statistics, and they don't have to socialize. While I would agree that the majority of the work would have been done by the goblins (and in reality probally a lot closer to the above), I see hobgoblin overseers directing things. Not every hobgoblin was cut out to be a warrior, no matter how much he or she wanted it to be otherwise....
lordalm 11-01-06, 01:03 PM	While I agree on the whole, I disagree with one major point. I don't see goblins as being antisocial, more likely they were highly intelligent and viewed their tasks of gathering and managing the massive collections of information together as not only as academic exercise but as vital to the continued functioning of the empire. More than just clerks and typists, the goblins were the real brainpower that made the systems of government operate regularly. That wouldn't be the case all the time, there were obviously Hobgoblins and bugbears that had the mental capacities and ability to maintain records and ledgers, but it was more common for goblins to find such things pleasing work. And who wouldn't want a job sitting on your backside most of the day "reading" and eating your rat sandwich and drinking your Black Gobbo?
lordalm 11-01-06, 01:08 PM	"look, it works just like a giant kite, you flew those when you were a kid, right?" A look of relief crossed his face as the scared goblin volunteer in front of him nodded. The sergeant went on to explain, "this is just the same, only we're gonna strap you onto this kite so we can get a set of eyes up in the air to spot the enemy's strongest points in their defenses." Again the volunteer's face blanched and he sort of whimpered a "but sarge, our kites always crashed and broke." The Sargeant quickly replied, "we've got lots of experience with these, we've never lost a goblin spotter. We'll have you up quick so you can see what's inside their walls and down again before you know it. Can't exactly make a full report if this kills you, can you? So relax and enjoy the flight, I've done it myself. It's kinda fun." As a technology of the Dhakaani goblins, I've added simple manned flight. The method of flight most often used is similar to flying a goblin attached to a rather oversized kite when the wind is strong enough to get one aloft. The only real use of it would be to act as a spotter for looking inside or from inside besieged cities. The other form of flight employed by goblins is hang gliding. It didn't take very long to go from folded paper planes that could glide on the air to making something that could carry the weight of a goblin. Originally built to carry a goblin over the top of mountain valleys to the other side quickly and easily, they found many other uses for them as well, some were even for pleasure. Primarily used by goblins born and raised in the mountains, by the end of the empire both technologies were fairly common throughout the empire (common as in known, use was still considered a bit crazy to the non-mountain goblins). Owww, a doom diver reference, I like.....
lordalm 11-01-06, 01:21 PM	I thought ballooning was just a tad simple. I would've gone that way but I thought about wind currents and figured goblins would've noticed them. Although, ballooning would be the lowland counterpart to the small measure of true flight achieved by the mountain goblins. It's merely a matter of noticing the thermodynamic quality over the aerodynamic. I think that for source material one could view the FR society that has flying ships for ideas on how parallel magical research would have gone. I am thinking that flying ships were done by the giants long before the gnomes, and the Dhakaani would have gotten to it in 11k years.
lordalm 11-01-06, 01:24 PM	On the collapse of the Empire, I had a few thoughts that need airing out. With a large, centralized government the sudden, violent removal of the central command and control of the civil authority would possibly contribute to the overall collapse of the Empire but it wouldn't be the final nail in the coffin by a longshot. The loss of the Imperial capital might be able to slow the machine of government to a degree, but the final collapse would have to be affected within the government itself. Not the central government, but in the outer reaches of the civil authority. The governing and legal code would be handled on a local scale in all corners of the empire, so any major cataclysm wouldn't cause the total disruption of Imperial life. That being said, the Daelkyr would more likely than not attempt to get their agents into the government itself during the long, drawn-out war against the Dhakaani. Not to mention that the lords of dust would also be influential in any attempt to overthrow the government from within. Either one would create a level of distrust from one clan or tribe to another and basically plant the seeds of destruction for the Dhakaani Empire as a whole. With leaders inside the government working at cross purposes for their masters (LoD or Daelkyr) the Empire's ability to function as a uniform government would be seriously curtailed. And by curtailing the government's ability to function, roads and buildings fall into disrepair, armies don't have the level of supply needed to maintain the campaigns against the Daelkyr and the borders are slowly eaten away by threats both inside and out. Long after the threat of the Daelkyr dismembering the empire as a whole is gone, the pro-empire and anti-empire factions within the leadership of the empire are free to wage war against one another without any outside threat to them. The whispers in the ear of both factions (the lords of dust, most likely) would be free to spread the seeds of discontent widely within both the heart and the fringes of the Empire as a whole, effectively stirring up a state of civil war that would break the empire in a way that even the Daelkyr invasion couldn't. From this final splintering of the Dhakaani, we have a fragment of the pro-Imperial faction going into hiding in the mountains that were always the safe havens of the clans loyal to the Imperial bloodline. The clans and tribes not loyal to the imperial bloodlines stayed in the open, to meet the threat of the human arrival on the continent. With the human arrival, the disunited cities and tribes didn't stand much of a chance of taking on the threat of human colonization and were wiped out and scattered. Like it, like it alot. But again not a fan of the bloodlines, more of for the Empire and Emeror man myself. But to each his own.
lordalm 11-01-06, 02:03 PM	I haven't read any of the material on Xen'Drik yet, did the LoD have anything to do with their little dust-up? I haven't read the secrets section yet, but nothing before that hinted at it. However, one of the novels paints a group of gaints worhsipping the warrior rakasha (who's name escapes me). Least up till something, maybe the quori war....
lordalm 11-01-06, 02:20 PM	I can see them hunting them possibly more for the sport involved than the meat. It fits a "strong, brave warrior motif" but I don't imagine using them as a stable food source. Domesticating them would leave a pretty sizable trace on the modern goblinoids. Why would I "imagine elephants" when the Dhakaani empire covered so many regions with the right climate and terrain to support real elephants? Real world analogy to how they might of have used them. For those who didn't take history classes. Lord of the Rings Mumakil.
lordalm 11-01-06, 02:22 PM	I have a bit of trouble envisioning everything being worthy of storage on the spell crystal things. Yeah, I'm sure some of the material was, but the value of a spell crystal would make putting all the material in a library on them prohibitive. So yes, I would still imagine libraries that make even Korranberg seem small (but only in very large cities). Your probally write. But I would think that in the MAJOR cities or places of importance that they might have done something along those lines. Kind of like Iron Mountain that the government and corporations store all of their media (paper, computer disks, etc.) that they can't afford to do away with but don't want it under foot.
lordalm 11-01-06, 02:41 PM	Just a general apology to everyone for making a newbie poster about making specific comments on an ongoing game on a general discussion board. Feel free to flame me if I get to annoying. ;)
taski 11-01-06, 03:20 PM	Just a general apology to everyone for making a newbie poster about making specific comments on an ongoing game on a general discussion board. Feel free to flame me if I get to annoying. ;) It's good that you're getting in on the discussion. There's nothing wrong with that. :) Some advice, though. It's usually best to read all of the new posts all the way through before posting. Then you can condense all of your ideas into one or two large posts, rather than making a zillion small posts. It's easier for other people to read the thread when the posts are longer and fewer. Plus, you can take the time to develop your ideas into something as thoughtful as one of goblin_pride's, Darth Syntax's or ArcTan's posts. And that will make you look smarter (and let me tell you, looking smart is the quickest way to earning friends and respect on these boards).
goblin_pride 11-01-06, 04:03 PM	Real world analogy to how they might of have used them. For those who didn't take history classes. I'm going to assume that's a request to elaborate further on the use of elephants in the Dhakaani empire. Assuming goblinoids domesticated them, Elephants would be used for tasks such as dragging the roadbeds level when building roads, clearing trees from construction sites with relative ease and attached to a harness they could pull loads other draft animals would break their backs trying to budge. But the Hobgoblin and Bugbear war elephants would be the use most people want to hear about. Using an elephant in warfare has been done for millenia on the Indian subcontinent. First, an elephant is unbelievably strong, so one or two could easily push a siege tower forward (freeing up dozens if not hundreds of Hobgoblin troops). Second, and my personal favorite, Bugbear shock troops in a siege would want the biggest, scariest looking creature they can find to literally head-butt a gate open before a swell of bugbear warriors fall shrieking and foaming at the mouth on the defenders. A close third is as a mobile platform for Hobgoblin archers or even small siege engines(if you use one for goblin archers you can easily get double or triple the little buggers on it's back). Last, but certainly not least, there's something about the thought of a Hobgoblin general's walking command post that just seems to fit. (I wanted to mention that all the dung created by elephants is a perfect base for incindiary ammunition for your trebuchets as well, just mix lamp oil in, fill a sack and coat the whole thing in pitch, Light and launch, the force of impact should scatter flaming crap for some distance.)
Darth Syntax 11-01-06, 04:23 PM	That, goblin_pride, is more or less what I was thinking of when I envision the Dhakaani elephants. I especially like the 'mobile command post' image. While I would agree that the majority of the work would have been done by the goblins (and in reality probably a lot closer to the above), I see hobgoblin overseers directing things. Not every hobgoblin was cut out to be a warrior, no matter how much he or she wanted it to be otherwise.... I don't see the need for inherently hobgoblin overseers, as 'species-based' hierarchies don't really fit with the Dhakaani who were referenced as having a large degree of inter-species cooperation. Instead, it would make sense to have those citizens of the empire who scored the highest on the various civil service exams, and who demonstrated general competence act as overseers. If that means that a goblin being in charge of the local office of 'architecture and civil projects' then thats just dandy. The same can be said for a hobgoblin, a bug bear, or any other sentient citizen of the empire. The meritocracy was necessary for the functioning of the empire. The only position in the whole of the empire that had anything to do with species was the empress.
goblin_pride 11-01-06, 04:57 PM	While I would agree that the majority of the work would have been done by the goblins (and in reality probally a lot closer to the above), I see hobgoblin overseers directing things. Not every hobgoblin was cut out to be a warrior, no matter how much he or she wanted it to be otherwise.... I see things a bit different. Yes, the bulk of the work would be done by goblins. It's not from any kind of racial preference for Hobgoblins, but more likely because a goblin reaches maturity between age 4-6. With a breeding cycle like that, goblins would easily be the majority race in the empire. So obviously, goblins will be doing the bulk of any work. A hobgoblin sitting under a tree acting as an "overseer" would suit the goblins just fine, that way he's out of the way while the real work is being done and they don't have to explain why they're doing what they're doing. A hobgoblin that isn't cut out for fighting is certainly unqualified for supervising work gangs building roads and aqueducts. I would make it a bit of a running gag among the goblins. I can already hear the foreman's jokes about something being as useless as a hobgob overseer. I think part of the reason you're picturing the hobgoblins as a ruling class comes from a deep-seated memory of the Monster Manual entries. By discarding those racial tendencies the Dhakaani become something altogether different. Better or worse is subjective, they're different. Only by being different could they have held an empire together for 11k years.
ArcTan 11-01-06, 05:35 PM	That, goblin_pride, is more or less what I was thinking of when I envision the Dhakaani elephants. I especially like the 'mobile command post' image. I don't see the need for inherently hobgoblin overseers, as 'species-based' hierarchies don't really fit with the Dhakaani who were referenced as having a large degree of inter-species cooperation. Instead, it would make sense to have those citizens of the empire who scored the highest on the various civil service exams, and who demonstrated general competence act as overseers. If that means that a goblin being in charge of the local office of 'architecture and civil projects' then thats just dandy. The same can be said for a hobgoblin, a bug bear, or any other sentient citizen of the empire. The meritocracy was necessary for the functioning of the empire. The only position in the whole of the empire that had anything to do with species was the empress. That specifically contradicts the printed material, which says that the reason for the existence of the different goblinoid subspecies or "castes" in the first place was their being bred for different roles by the Dhakaan (or, perhaps, an even more ancient civilization). It speaks to the degree of power and control the old empire had that it could cause its people to speciate based on their assigned tasks within society. I kind of liked that idea, anyway -- a race-based caste system based on an intentional development of race-based differences for different roles in the first place, one that challenges our kneejerk moral sentiments about racism with a situation largely alien to us in real life.
Darth Syntax 11-01-06, 05:51 PM	I've always hated the age tables given for the goblinoids, as they don't make a whole lot of sense. (also I can never figure out where they seem to be located and thus I have dreamed up my own). My own system goblins reach physical maturity at about 13 years, but goblins tend to have a large number of twins (indeed this is the usual case for them, and this helps increase their population). They generally live to be about 110- 120 if they are healthy. Average life expectancy: 90 years Hobgoblins reach physical maturity at between 17 and 20 and generally live about 120-135 years at the extreme. Multiple births among hobgoblins are very rare. Average life expectancy: 95 years Bugbears reach physical maturity at 15 but due to their greater size, their life expectancy is lower (wear and tear on the heart and all) and generally live about 80 years at the outside. Average life expectancy: 65-70 years. -- On the issue of hobgoblins and wanting to be soldiers: I would say that most Dhakaani hobgoblins had a healthy respect for the martial tradition, but in truth they would much rather design and build cities than raze them to the ground. If a city needed to be razed, oh sure they would do it, and with frightening zeal and efficiency, but as soon as the fires of the siege died out you can bet they would be clearing out the rubble, and bringing in the wine, the olive oil, the tea, the roads, the sanitation and the public order. -- That specifically contradicts the printed material, which says that the reason for the existence of the different goblinoid subspecies or "castes" in the first place was their being bred for different roles by the Dhakaan (or, perhaps, an even more ancient civilization). It speaks to the degree of power and control the old empire had that it could cause its people to speciate based on their assigned tasks within society. Where was this written? I don't recall seeing it
goblin_pride 11-02-06, 01:30 AM	That specifically contradicts the printed material, which says that the reason for the existence of the different goblinoid subspecies or "castes" in the first place was their being bred for different roles by the Dhakaan (or, perhaps, an even more ancient civilization). It speaks to the degree of power and control the old empire had that it could cause its people to speciate based on their assigned tasks within society. I'm having trouble finding that as well, where is that from? A empire peopled by very "law and order" minded hobgoblins, the more intellectual goblins and the fierce, powerful bugbear warriors would be something the other nations of Khorvaire should fear returning. I have no problem picturing hobgoblin rulers, their outlook lends itself well to establishing social organization. But in subjugating rather than elevating the "lesser" goblinoids, they would create a situation that would cause civil strife to bubble to the surface every couple years rather than at the decline of a battle-wearied 11,000 year empire. More likely than not, a Hobgoblin ruler or military commander would have advisors of whatever race the skills and intelligence to do the task at hand happened to spring up in. Limiting an individual by race not only limits the people, it limits the society as a whole and a Dhakaani hobgoblin would be looking more to the health of the empire over the personal power of a select few. Bugbears, with their obvious advantages in combat would lean heavily towards a more violent and brutal aspect of the society as a whole. I can see Bugbears honing their battle skills against each other in the form of sporting events when an enemy of the empire is lacking. That's not to say that there weren't great bugbear architects and philosophers, it's just more likely their physical abilities would be the point of focus for most of the society. Picture if you would the Dhakaani (olympic) games, bugbears, due to their physique would dominate in most sports. Bugbears wouldn't rise to the position of "hero of the people" in an empire where Hobgoblins subjugated anything not hobgoblin. And last we come to the goblins. While not physically strong like the bugbear, or as quick to organize themselves like the hobgoblin, goblins have a questionable position in the empire. They're not as capable as a larger goblinoid so the generally held belief is that they're ruled over and controlled because of it. I disagree with that for a handful of reasons: 1) The Dhakaani empire held slaves, we know from the readings that kobolds and possibly gnomes were at one point both slave races in the empire. So why weren't the goblins simply lumped in as a slave race? 2) Goblins are masters of stealth and subterfuge. A goblin that doesn't want to be seen probably won't be. The very essence of their being is not being noticed. In 11,000 years, you can bet at least one goblin would've stood up an said "NO". The event that triggered the creation of Darguun struck me as being more of a goblin tactic than hobgoblin. Why wouldn't the goblins simply rise up against an oppresive hobgoblin regime? 3) Even in the Monster manual, goblins are described as being fiercely cunning and intelligent. Being the more intelligent of the goblinoids, it stands to reason that alot of the innovations in the empire would've come from goblins over bugbears. I'm not saying that all goblins are smarrter than all bugbears. But size does, to a certain degree affect the thinking of an individual. A goblin, when faced with an overseer that is overly enthusiastic in handing out punishment would quite easily be able to find a way to make sure said overseer had an "accident". Cunning and intelligent lower classes? 4) Breeding cycle, I can't stress this enough. A goblin reaches maturity much faster than a hobgoblin or a bugbear. As a result goblins will outnumber the other goblinoid races by a wide majority in a very short time. One goblin wouldn't scare a hobgoblin warrior, but I have a sneaking suspicion that a dozen or more might. How do you subjugate a race that outnumbers you tenfold? 5) Their size is usually pointed out as the reason goblins are subjugated, but I have a different thought. A goblin's size would help them in any fight against an oppressive regime because the much larger opponents would have a great deal of difficulty in fighting opponents half their size in their homes. And if you think a goblin uprising is going to be fought on your terms, you have another thing coming. Any goblin uprising would quickly turn into a violent, guerilla war fought in the goblin neighborhoods of a city. Why bother to take the hobgoblin portions of the city when they could easily set them alight and make the hobgoblins fight on goblin terms? There are five perfectly sound reasons why goblins wouldn't be "lesser" members of society. I could probably think of another dozen if I really put my mind to it. The point of the empire, to my mind, is that all benefit from working together. If that means a hobgoblin who thinks he should lord over others has to accept that he's taking orders from a bugbear or god's forbid a goblin, so be it. The power of the Dhakaani empire is in the spirit of cooperation, first espoused by those six warlords that decided that fighting each other was fruitless and wasteful. Before anyone comments, I want to point out this is a discussion of the Dhakaani, not the Darguuni, Droamite or the city goblins of the five nations. Those goblinoids pretty much fit all the old stereotypes.
goblin_pride 11-02-06, 01:34 AM	I've always hated the age tables given for the goblinoids, as they don't make a whole lot of sense. (also I can never figure out where they seem to be located and thus I have dreamed up my own). All of the goblinoid ages seem to have been left out of the entries in the monster manual in 3.5 edition, not sure about 3rd edition. I was basing my thinking on the old second edition numbers.
goblin_pride 11-04-06, 02:59 PM	I was looking at the post about elephants and I began to think about the list of animals domesticated in the Dhakaani empire. Aside from the animals used as beasts of burden and mounts in combat, the list seems to have been left completely bare except one posting by Darth Syntax (which was on cuisine). So I've gone ahead and thought out a few others that may or may not fit with your ideas on the empire but are possibly worth a second thought. Tribex: These rather large, tempermental beast of burden would serve to haul wagons or find their way onto the dinner table of the Dhakaani. Their milk is slightly more pungent than other bovines and the butter and cheeses made from it tend to be a bit on the tart side to non-goblinoids. (comparable to real-world yaks, oxen or bison) Goat: These foul little wretches fill alot of the same roles as the Tribex in Dhakaani life with the sole exception being that they make pathetic beats of burden. The saying that "only a goat would eat what a goblin can't" comes from the fact that goats are surprisingly easy to keep and maintain in addition to plants grown for food. Sheep: Grown for their wool as well as their meat, sheep would've been the livestock of choice for the Dhakaani living close to the frostline in the mountainous regions of the empire. Goblins living in these regions tend to use ewe's milk instead of tribex milk because the tribex is rather a nightmare for goblins to milk. Wolves: Goblinoids have used wolves as hunting animals and war mounts for millenia. Where human cultures use other canines the Dhakaani use timberwolves instead. While difficult to train directly from the wild, clans like the Taarka'khesh have been breeding the fastest and strongest of their mounts for generations, producing bloodlines stronger and slightly less wild than their feral counterparts. Falcons: Early on in the empire the hobgoblins developed falconry as a means of hunting and it developed into a mark of a Dhakaani lords wealth to maintain large collections of hunting birds. Songbirds: While not truly domesticated, the Dhakaani kept caged songbirds throughout the entire span of the empire simply because such things were pleasing to the ear and added a certain aesthetic to the household. Elephants: Used as beasts of burden in both millitary and civil affairs, these were common in the more tropical portions of the empire. Very rarely were they ever used as a food source because it would take a small village weeks to eat all the meat from a single elephant. Large Cats: While rare, there were examples of Dhakaani using domesticated mountain lions as hunting animals. The only thing that kept the practice from gaining wide acceptance was that they tended to turn on their masters far more often than similarly trained wolves. Horses: The first Valenar incursion into the empire was the first time the Dhakaani had seen horses used as mounts, so prior to that time, horses weren't used at all and afterwards primarily as trophies and mounts for the wealthy. Chickens: The Dhakaani goblins used these for meat, eggs and sport. Cockfighting was an accepted part of the sporting tradition of the empire from it's earliest days and wagering on which chicken would kill the other was far more acceptable than wagering on other bloodsports that would have a cost in Dhakaani lives. Other Fowl: Turkey, pigeon, quail and pheasant, while not domesticated were hunted extensively across the empire to not only hone the skills useful in battle but to provide "wild" meat as well. Rabbit: Goblins tended rabbit hutches extensively to feed the wolves used across the empire, however it was good sport to hunt the wild rabbits rather than the domesticated ones to eat. Pigs: Domesticated pigs didn't exist in the empire, rather these were creatures that ran wild throughout most of the empire. Considered pests by the farmers of the empire, hunting wild pigs was a sport that was considered worthy of the warriors of every clan (due to the potential dangers involved). Rats: While unpleasant as a food source for Hobgoblins and Bugbears, Goblins kept domesticated rats to feed both themselves and their wolves in parts of the empire as well as hunting wild rats that get into grain stores. While not a complete list, this should give you a better idea the scope of animals that would be present in a settlement in the Dhakaani empire, whether it be a city, village, thorp or major metropolis.
Darth Syntax 11-04-06, 05:05 PM	I had a slightly different set of ideas concerning domestic animals of the empire. Pigs: As one of the primary sources of meat in the empire, pigs had been domesticated sense well before the advent of writing. Dhakaani pigs retained some rather archaic features, still possessing large amounts of fur and tusks were common. The more archaic pigs provided leaner meat, and were less docile so they were more capable of defending themselves against predators. Horses: The native horses of Khorvaire are stockier than those brought over by the Valaes Tairn, and were far better suited to use as beats of burden or as transport. Military use of the horse (as cavalry) was originally the realm of the Yimyataaq (who used a small stocky breed rather like a steppe pony). The Dhakaani did make use of their Clydesdale-like horses as transport for infantry (like the historical dragoons) but it wasn't until the later periods of imperial history that cavalry proper became more common. Sheep: Sheep were as ubiquitous as pigs, being raised for wool and for food. The Dhakaani had many different varieties of sheep, some raised for the flavor of the meat, and others for the quality of their wool. The Lowland sheep of the northern empire (what is now southern and central Thrane, Aundaire, and once Cyre) were known for their excellent wool. Elephants: Commonly used in the central and southern empire as labor and for military purposes, the elephant had a rather interesting position in the empire. It was illegal to mistreat an elephant in the empire, and killing them was punishable by death (usually by being stepped on by another elephant). Baboons: Although not technically domesticated, baboons (not to be confused with the mandrills of Aerenal) warrant some discussion here as they (like elephants) had a unique position in the empire. The Dhakaani recognized that baboons were among their closest living relatives (goblinoids being more closely related to baboons and other monkeys than they are to apes, which are not native to khorvaire) and as such, killing of or mistreatment of said baboons was severely punished. Spiders: Yes, you read that right, spiders. The large (dinner-plate sized ) spiders of the upper Dagger river were raised both for their meat and for the silk they produced. Spider farming was a rather complex affair, but profits were high, and demand for silk and spider legs for cooking was constant. Even today, the northern Brels raise these same sorts of spiders for the same reasons. Ducks: I would like to preface my remarks here by offering the ancient Dhakaani saying 'Ducks are evil, but tasty'. This sentiment lead to wide-spread consumption of duck, although no one would ever admit to raising the horrid little things. Instead, people just 'happened' to have ponds where large populations of ducks just 'happened to like to stay.' Quail: Usually raised by goblin farmers, quail were quite popular in the empire as they made a nice meal for the smaller citizens, and wonderful appetizers for the larger inhabitants. Occasionally they were also kept as pets. Goats: Commonly raised for their meat and the milk (for the making of small amounts of cheese) goats were also raised for comedic effect. It was widely believed in the empire that there was nothing more bizarre than a goat placidly chewing on a tuft of grass in an otherwise serious situation. This lead to a whole host of seemingly meaningless jokes with the punchline 'and there's the goat!' Goats were used in comedic plays as a kind of visual gag. -- On chickens and tibex I have nothing to say. Goblin_Pride covered that well indeed. And I agree, so I'll just shut up. -- On the Issue of Wolves. I have removed the whole wolf-bit from the Dhakaani as it is quite clearly a cultural trait that just dosen't make any sense for them. The Empire was based in central and southern Khorvaire, lands not exactly famous for their wolves. The Yimyataaq (whose homeland is what is now called Karrnath) did make use of wolves as they were available. To them, wolf-riding was just part of the culture, but to the Dhakaani, the practice was alien and considered barbaric.
goblin_pride 11-04-06, 05:43 PM	I have removed the whole wolf-bit from the Dhakaani as it is quite clearly a cultural trait that just dosen't make any sense for them. The Empire was based in central and southern Khorvaire, lands not exactly famous for their wolves. My personal vision is that the wolves of the Dhakaani would be similar to the Valenar warhorses, not only an animal but a close companion that's treated like part of the family by the goblin clans that use them extensively. Clans like the Taarka'khesh would trace the bloodlines of their wolves as much as the bloodlines of their riders. I'm tempted to use the magebred template to represent the millenia of careful breeding of them. As to their climate and terrain, the empire ran from one end of the continent to the other, so finding areas that would have them doesn't seem quite as difficult. But the more prized mounts would be the ones that lived in forested areas along mountain ranges. So the Seawall, Howling peaks, Graywall, and Byeshk mountain ranges would easily offer up a habitat for wild wolves to add to the bloodlines. (Darguun to the Shadow Marches for the aforementioned mountain ranges, all along the line of Dhakaani ruins in the ECS) Additionally, I took the Dragonshard article about the Taarka'khesh as canon and created from there. Wolves are far more appropriate for an empire that is neutral in alignment.
goblin_pride 11-04-06, 05:45 PM	Pigs: As one of the primary sources of meat in the empire, pigs had been domesticated sense well before the advent of writing. Dhakaani pigs retained some rather archaic features, still possessing large amounts of fur and tusks were common. The more archaic pigs provided leaner meat, and were less docile so they were more capable of defending themselves against predators. And their handlers, I like it.
Darth Syntax 11-04-06, 06:15 PM	As to their climate and terrain, the empire ran from one end of the continent to the other, so finding areas that would have them doesn't seem quite as difficult. The problem with the 'continent-spanning' empire is that we have no physical evidence of this. The only ruins we have are in the southern part of the continent. The conspicuous absence of any ruins in Karrnath, Aundair, and the other northerly nations indicates that the Dhakaani simply had no control over these regions. True, we have the reference to the empire dominating Khorvaire, but that could easily be a reference to the fact that the empire was the largest and most politically powerful of states. We constantly refer to the Romans dominating Europe, but we know they really did not control much of the northern and central parts of the continent. The other problem with complete Dhakaani control of Khorvaire is that it would seem to fly in the face of the strong martial tradition we know about. If they didn't have any potential enemies to fight over territory with, then why maintain an army? There is an internal reason (that I dreamed up) as well for the lack of a Dhakaani presence in the north. It's too expensive to bring the wine, the roads, the tea, and the olive oil all that way; and it was just too cold. Now, this doesn't meant that there were not goblinoids in these more northerly regions, it simply means they were not Dhakaani. -- And we're just going to have to agree to disagree on the wolf issue here. I fully admit my irrational dislike of the combination of the Dhakaani and wolves: it simply does not fit with my vision of the empire.
goblin_pride 11-04-06, 06:35 PM	Baboons: Although not technically domesticated, baboons (not to be confused with the mandrills of Aerenal) warrant some discussion here as they (like elephants) had a unique position in the empire. The Dhakaani recognized that baboons were among their closest living relatives (goblinoids being more closely related to baboons and other monkeys than they are to apes, which are not native to khorvaire) and as such, killing of or mistreatment of said baboons was severely punished. Unless I read this wrong, you're giving the Dhakaani empire credit for discovering the theory of evolution? This is where the whole "agnostic" empire question rears it's ugly head. While the government as a whole may have been agnostic, were the citizens? It sounds like an easy question, but we have references to the 16 Dhakaani gods in the canon. So we know that some of the citizens obviously worshipped gods but the empire as a whole didn't. That makes the possibility of civil strife over laws protecting baboons a real possibility as the fundementalist members of society would ignore the concept of evolution and their empire would seem to be supporting it. Aside from religious matters, we still have the whole "golden age of science" hurdle to overcome. Evolution was a theory advanced during a period in which the real-world was making leaps and bounds in all the fields of science. By taking away some of the advancements made leading up to that fateful voyage of the Beagle, it's entirely possible that a society might never make that particular leap. Any given discovery in the natural sciences requires a series of previous discoveries to make it possible and by crediting the Dhakaani with the theory of evolution, we would have to make their level of advancement somewhat close to the level of Victorian England. You have to remember that part of the initial material leading up to Darwin's theory was his observation of mothes in industrialized areas. Without the industry, no initial observations. As much as I would love to say the Dhakaani knew about evolution, it just strikes me as too much of a quantum leap. Not to say that it isn't possible, but the conditions wouldn't be favorable for them making the discovery. On a more personal note: While I may or may not agree with the theory, you never really know how the others in the group you play with feel on the evolution/creation subject. It's better to leave it out of the game just to avoid alienating or offending them.
goblin_pride 11-04-06, 07:06 PM	The problem with the 'continent-spanning' empire is that we have no physical evidence of this. The only ruins we have are in the southern part of the continent. The conspicuous absence of any ruins in Karrnath, Aundair, and the other northerly nations indicates that the Dhakaani simply had no control over these regions. True, we have the reference to the empire dominating Khorvaire, but that could easily be a reference to the fact that the empire was the largest and most politically powerful of states. We constantly refer to the Romans dominating Europe, but we know they really did not control much of the northern and central parts of the continent. The mountain ranges I mentioned are only the ones in Darguun, Zilargo, Breland, Droaam and the Shadow Marches, places that all contain ruined cities of the Dhakaani. The Draals from Darguun to Shadow marches are: Rhukaan and Volaar (Darguun), Paluur (Zilargo), Yarkuun (Breland), Cazhaak and Suthar (Droaam) and Taarn (Shadow Marches). I hadn't given much thought to the extent of how far towards the center of the continent they went from those cities, my apologies if it sounded otherwise.
Darth Syntax 11-04-06, 07:37 PM	On the Issue of Evolution. The Dhakaani treatment of baboons arose out of an argument by analogy. They knew that goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears were all related in some manner, never mind how. They also noticed that of all the animals around them, the baboons were most like them in form and in behavior. They lived in groups, they clearly had a social order, they had thumbs . . . . So what they were expressing was an understanding of similarity, not necessarily of common origin. Knowledge of some form of evolutionary theory really isn't that hard to imagine. They did domesticate animals and raise crops, all of which require controlled breeding and the like. This would at least give them the possibility of thinking that various plants and animals are related somehow. On the issue of the Gods, the natural world, and the agnostic empire Pre-Dhakaani religion, like what we know of the SH, was generally unconcerned with the origin of the goblinoid peoples. The gods were generally patrons of various aspects of life, not the creators. There is a myth that Vhäänyďrräi (my pre-Dhakaani god of knowledge, language, death and other such things) taught the goblinoid peoples language, and also to know and to fear death. This was supposedly the act that separated them from other animals and made them sentient, but it was never really understood to be anything other than a metaphor by most people. You don't really see the gods walking around doing much. My point, I guess, is that the Dharlukesh people (including the Dhakaani) had an understanding of they mythology which might be summed of as 'no, of course none of that happened, but it's all true'. The story, and the telling of the story, were the important aspects of the mythology. During the Imperial period, the mythology still hung around precisely because the factual nature of its stories was never much of a central issue. Also, living in a world full of weird creatures, demons, dragons, and wizards, sort of takes the 'umph' out of a supernatural mythology.
ArcTan 11-05-06, 05:52 AM	Unless I read this wrong, you're giving the Dhakaani empire credit for discovering the theory of evolution? This is where the whole "agnostic" empire question rears it's ugly head. While the government as a whole may have been agnostic, were the citizens? It sounds like an easy question, but we have references to the 16 Dhakaani gods in the canon. So we know that some of the citizens obviously worshipped gods but the empire as a whole didn't. That makes the possibility of civil strife over laws protecting baboons a real possibility as the fundementalist members of society would ignore the concept of evolution and their empire would seem to be supporting it. You propose a fundamental dichotomy here that is really actually pretty unique to modern-day Western -- and American -- culture. Nothing at all says that all concepts of religion must contain a creation myth that insists on a non-evolutionary origin for species, or that the "fundamentalists" among a religious group must be the ones who care the most about a creation myth that insists on special, ex nihilo creation for all existing species. Aside from religious matters, we still have the whole "golden age of science" hurdle to overcome. Evolution was a theory advanced during a period in which the real-world was making leaps and bounds in all the fields of science. By taking away some of the advancements made leading up to that fateful voyage of the Beagle, it's entirely possible that a society might never make that particular leap. Any given discovery in the natural sciences requires a series of previous discoveries to make it possible and by crediting the Dhakaani with the theory of evolution, we would have to make their level of advancement somewhat close to the level of Victorian England. You have to remember that part of the initial material leading up to Darwin's theory was his observation of mothes in industrialized areas. Without the industry, no initial observations. *shrug* There were a lot of other cases besides the pepper moths. The famous finches, for instance, which had nothing to do with human industry, just exploration (and, indeed, human expansion eventually *destroyed* that case study by making many of those species extinct). And, again, you're proposing a fairly rigid form of historical determinism I don't adhere to. In a world where the laws of physics are themselves different -- magic and such -- I absolutely do not adhere to the idea that your society must look like Victorian England in all its levels of achievement in order to discover a certain thing that in our society *happened* to be discovered in the time of Victorian England. Indeed, this line of thinking more or less totally impoverishes any interest alternate histories or fantastic worlds could hold for me. Its reductio ad absurdum is the Star Trek episode where they land on a planet that's in its "Ancient Rome" phase of development, and they can tell by the design of the alien centurion's armor what the architecture of the city, the political organization of the government and the language of the people will be like. On a more personal note: While I may or may not agree with the theory, you never really know how the others in the group you play with feel on the evolution/creation subject. It's better to leave it out of the game just to avoid alienating or offending them. Er, sure you do. I know quite well what everyone in my group thinks about that subject, just as I know what they think about a lot of things. It's kind of a general result of getting to know people (and I, along with many other people, really do prefer to only play with people I already know). If you take out everything in the game that's potentially controversial you don't have much of an interesting story left. I mean, it's a game that's centrally about violence and warfare, and secondarily contains all kinds of elements like religious conflict, questions of moral good and evil, ethnic and racial conflicts, etc.
ArcTan 11-05-06, 06:02 AM	Also, Darth Syntax makes the good point that "closeness" can be defined morphologically rather than genealogically, and that morphological similarity can bear a lot of weight in a culture that does *not* insist on their species' specialness based on a mythological act of special creation -- which is *certainly* not a cultural universal when it comes to religion. Chinese religion, for instance, places almost no emphasis on the long-ago creation of the world at all, its creator-god (Pangu) is a minor figure only mentioned in relatively obscure creation myths, etc. You could theoretically not care about origins at all and still think of things as being in related classes based on morphological similarity. You could believe very strongly that God created each species individually, and still believe that the great apes are the same kind of thing as humans because God *made them to be similar to humans*.
lordalm 11-05-06, 07:32 AM	That, goblin_pride, is more or less what I was thinking of when I envision the Dhakaani elephants. I especially like the 'mobile command post' image. I don't see the need for inherently hobgoblin overseers, as 'species-based' hierarchies don't really fit with the Dhakaani who were referenced as having a large degree of inter-species cooperation. Instead, it would make sense to have those citizens of the empire who scored the highest on the various civil service exams, and who demonstrated general competence act as overseers. If that means that a goblin being in charge of the local office of 'architecture and civil projects' then thats just dandy. The same can be said for a hobgoblin, a bug bear, or any other sentient citizen of the empire. The meritocracy was necessary for the functioning of the empire. The only position in the whole of the empire that had anything to do with species was the empress. I conceed the point. Without further info on how they (WoT, KB) think the empire was run, the above is all resonable.
lordalm 11-05-06, 07:41 AM	That specifically contradicts the printed material, which says that the reason for the existence of the different goblinoid subspecies or "castes" in the first place was their being bred for different roles by the Dhakaan (or, perhaps, an even more ancient civilization). It speaks to the degree of power and control the old empire had that it could cause its people to speciate based on their assigned tasks within society. I kind of liked that idea, anyway -- a race-based caste system based on an intentional development of race-based differences for different roles in the first place, one that challenges our kneejerk moral sentiments about racism with a situation largely alien to us in real life. I would also agree with this point as well. Thing is that, going from memory, the the Heirs (as I call them) are the continuation of the old empire, and after it collapsed. So it might not be "how" the old empire was actually run. They have a decidedly military bent, which is not to say that wasn't how the empire was, but can you imagine being in the army from the time you were born till you died? No wonder the bugbears made themselves kings and won't bow down to the current hobgoblin king. Think just about any middle east country for how the political frame work of Darguun is. The King claiming control of the kingdom. Bugbear kings telling him to bugger off, the Heirs in the mountains just waiting till "they" decide amongst themselves who is going to be the emperor. Kind of reminds me of the warlords in the mountains that the Afganis and Pakastanis are always making deals with on the news.
lordalm 11-05-06, 07:53 AM	I have no problem picturing hobgoblin rulers, their outlook lends itself well to establishing social organization. But in subjugating rather than elevating the "lesser" goblinoids, they would create a situation that would cause civil strife to bubble to the surface every couple years rather than at the decline of a battle-wearied 11,000 year empire. More likely than not, a Hobgoblin ruler or military commander would have advisors of whatever race the skills and intelligence to do the task at hand happened to spring up in. Limiting an individual by race not only limits the people, it limits the society as a whole and a Dhakaani hobgoblin would be looking more to the health of the empire over the personal power of a select few. Okay, I am going to throw a monkey wrench in your thinking. Your seeing thier culture from a western frame work of thought. The far east (China and Japan sticking out) were/are very much about the society. They would put aside thier own concerns and conentrate on the whole. Which generally led to a better quality of life. It was/is a huge societal thing for them. So if the hobgoblins happened to be the most organized, conquring and then incorporating the other goblinoids into thier empire, even within a caste system based off race (which brings up india where the caste system is still in place and has been around probally about as long as china). They would have all enjoyed a better life as a whole. I am not saying their weren't exceptions to the rule. But the hobgoblins are definetly painted by the ECS (and no I don't have it in front of me for the page(s)) as the guys in charge. Note that the 6 kings statues are venerated by about all the goblinoids and thier all hobgoblins.
lordalm 11-05-06, 07:57 AM	I was looking at the post about elephants and I began to think about the list of animals domesticated in the Dhakaani empire. Aside from the animals used as beasts of burden and mounts in combat, the list seems to have been left completely bare except one posting by Darth Syntax (which was on cuisine). So I've gone ahead and thought out a few others that may or may not fit with your ideas on the empire but are possibly worth a second thought. Tribex: These rather large, tempermental beast of burden would serve to haul wagons or find their way onto the dinner table of the Dhakaani. Their milk is slightly more pungent than other bovines and the butter and cheeses made from it tend to be a bit on the tart side to non-goblinoids. (comparable to real-world yaks, oxen or bison) Goat: These foul little wretches fill alot of the same roles as the Tribex in Dhakaani life with the sole exception being that they make pathetic beats of burden. The saying that "only a goat would eat what a goblin can't" comes from the fact that goats are surprisingly easy to keep and maintain in addition to plants grown for food. Sheep: Grown for their wool as well as their meat, sheep would've been the livestock of choice for the Dhakaani living close to the frostline in the mountainous regions of the empire. Goblins living in these regions tend to use ewe's milk instead of tribex milk because the tribex is rather a nightmare for goblins to milk. Wolves: Goblinoids have used wolves as hunting animals and war mounts for millenia. Where human cultures use other canines the Dhakaani use timberwolves instead. While difficult to train directly from the wild, clans like the Taarka'khesh have been breeding the fastest and strongest of their mounts for generations, producing bloodlines stronger and slightly less wild than their feral counterparts. Falcons: Early on in the empire the hobgoblins developed falconry as a means of hunting and it developed into a mark of a Dhakaani lords wealth to maintain large collections of hunting birds. Songbirds: While not truly domesticated, the Dhakaani kept caged songbirds throughout the entire span of the empire simply because such things were pleasing to the ear and added a certain aesthetic to the household. Elephants: Used as beasts of burden in both millitary and civil affairs, these were common in the more tropical portions of the empire. Very rarely were they ever used as a food source because it would take a small village weeks to eat all the meat from a single elephant. Large Cats: While rare, there were examples of Dhakaani using domesticated mountain lions as hunting animals. The only thing that kept the practice from gaining wide acceptance was that they tended to turn on their masters far more often than similarly trained wolves. Horses: The first Valenar incursion into the empire was the first time the Dhakaani had seen horses used as mounts, so prior to that time, horses weren't used at all and afterwards primarily as trophies and mounts for the wealthy. Chickens: The Dhakaani goblins used these for meat, eggs and sport. Cockfighting was an accepted part of the sporting tradition of the empire from it's earliest days and wagering on which chicken would kill the other was far more acceptable than wagering on other bloodsports that would have a cost in Dhakaani lives. Other Fowl: Turkey, pigeon, quail and pheasant, while not domesticated were hunted extensively across the empire to not only hone the skills useful in battle but to provide "wild" meat as well. Rabbit: Goblins tended rabbit hutches extensively to feed the wolves used across the empire, however it was good sport to hunt the wild rabbits rather than the domesticated ones to eat. Pigs: Domesticated pigs didn't exist in the empire, rather these were creatures that ran wild throughout most of the empire. Considered pests by the farmers of the empire, hunting wild pigs was a sport that was considered worthy of the warriors of every clan (due to the potential dangers involved). Rats: While unpleasant as a food source for Hobgoblins and Bugbears, Goblins kept domesticated rats to feed both themselves and their wolves in parts of the empire as well as hunting wild rats that get into grain stores. While not a complete list, this should give you a better idea the scope of animals that would be present in a settlement in the Dhakaani empire, whether it be a city, village, thorp or major metropolis. Vary nice list, like it. Good job.
lordalm 11-05-06, 08:00 AM	I had a slightly different set of ideas concerning domestic animals of the empire. Pigs: As one of the primary sources of meat in the empire, pigs had been domesticated sense well before the advent of writing. Dhakaani pigs retained some rather archaic features, still possessing large amounts of fur and tusks were common. The more archaic pigs provided leaner meat, and were less docile so they were more capable of defending themselves against predators. Horses: The native horses of Khorvaire are stockier than those brought over by the Valaes Tairn, and were far better suited to use as beats of burden or as transport. Military use of the horse (as cavalry) was originally the realm of the Yimyataaq (who used a small stocky breed rather like a steppe pony). The Dhakaani did make use of their Clydesdale-like horses as transport for infantry (like the historical dragoons) but it wasn't until the later periods of imperial history that cavalry proper became more common. Sheep: Sheep were as ubiquitous as pigs, being raised for wool and for food. The Dhakaani had many different varieties of sheep, some raised for the flavor of the meat, and others for the quality of their wool. The Lowland sheep of the northern empire (what is now southern and central Thrane, Aundaire, and once Cyre) were known for their excellent wool. Elephants: Commonly used in the central and southern empire as labor and for military purposes, the elephant had a rather interesting position in the empire. It was illegal to mistreat an elephant in the empire, and killing them was punishable by death (usually by being stepped on by another elephant). Baboons: Although not technically domesticated, baboons (not to be confused with the mandrills of Aerenal) warrant some discussion here as they (like elephants) had a unique position in the empire. The Dhakaani recognized that baboons were among their closest living relatives (goblinoids being more closely related to baboons and other monkeys than they are to apes, which are not native to khorvaire) and as such, killing of or mistreatment of said baboons was severely punished. Spiders: Yes, you read that right, spiders. The large (dinner-plate sized ) spiders of the upper Dagger river were raised both for their meat and for the silk they produced. Spider farming was a rather complex affair, but profits were high, and demand for silk and spider legs for cooking was constant. Even today, the northern Brels raise these same sorts of spiders for the same reasons. Ducks: I would like to preface my remarks here by offering the ancient Dhakaani saying 'Ducks are evil, but tasty'. This sentiment lead to wide-spread consumption of duck, although no one would ever admit to raising the horrid little things. Instead, people just 'happened' to have ponds where large populations of ducks just 'happened to like to stay.' Quail: Usually raised by goblin farmers, quail were quite popular in the empire as they made a nice meal for the smaller citizens, and wonderful appetizers for the larger inhabitants. Occasionally they were also kept as pets. Goats: Commonly raised for their meat and the milk (for the making of small amounts of cheese) goats were also raised for comedic effect. It was widely believed in the empire that there was nothing more bizarre than a goat placidly chewing on a tuft of grass in an otherwise serious situation. This lead to a whole host of seemingly meaningless jokes with the punchline 'and there's the goat!' Goats were used in comedic plays as a kind of visual gag. -- On chickens and tibex I have nothing to say. Goblin_Pride covered that well indeed. And I agree, so I'll just shut up. -- On the Issue of Wolves. I have removed the whole wolf-bit from the Dhakaani as it is quite clearly a cultural trait that just dosen't make any sense for them. The Empire was based in central and southern Khorvaire, lands not exactly famous for their wolves. The Yimyataaq (whose homeland is what is now called Karrnath) did make use of wolves as they were available. To them, wolf-riding was just part of the culture, but to the Dhakaani, the practice was alien and considered barbaric. Another good take. Good job.
lordalm 11-05-06, 08:04 AM	My personal vision is that the wolves of the Dhakaani would be similar to the Valenar warhorses, not only an animal but a close companion that's treated like part of the family by the goblin clans that use them extensively. Clans like the Taarka'khesh would trace the bloodlines of their wolves as much as the bloodlines of their riders. I'm tempted to use the magebred template to represent the millenia of careful breeding of them. As to their climate and terrain, the empire ran from one end of the continent to the other, so finding areas that would have them doesn't seem quite as difficult. But the more prized mounts would be the ones that lived in forested areas along mountain ranges. So the Seawall, Howling peaks, Graywall, and Byeshk mountain ranges would easily offer up a habitat for wild wolves to add to the bloodlines. (Darguun to the Shadow Marches for the aforementioned mountain ranges, all along the line of Dhakaani ruins in the ECS) Additionally, I took the Dragonshard article about the Taarka'khesh as canon and created from there. Wolves are far more appropriate for an empire that is neutral in alignment. I see them using wolves because of thier use in combat and hunting. Even after the horse was either domesticated or introduced to the continet by the elves (they brought thier horses with them from Xendrix). I kind of like the idea that the elves introducing the empire to horses. Makes for a culture clash as well as a military clash.
goblin_pride 11-05-06, 11:07 AM	Er, sure you do. I know quite well what everyone in my group thinks about that subject, just as I know what they think about a lot of things. It's kind of a general result of getting to know people (and I, along with many other people, really do prefer to only play with people I already know). One of the players in the group I play with currently I've known for 4-5 years and I keep finding out his views on things like the creation/evolution debate. Sometimes you don't know a person's take on more controversial issues until those come to the forefront. And that alone would be the reason I would leave the issue out of the game. I apologize if it sounded like a blanket censorship statement. I was simply trying to suggest that it might be a matter best left for discussing somewhere other than the gaming table.
goblin_pride 11-05-06, 11:33 AM	Okay, I am going to throw a monkey wrench in your thinking. Your seeing thier culture from a western frame work of thought. The far east (China and Japan sticking out) were/are very much about the society. They would put aside thier own concerns and conentrate on the whole. Which generally led to a better quality of life. It was/is a huge societal thing for them. So if the hobgoblins happened to be the most organized, conquring and then incorporating the other goblinoids into thier empire, even within a caste system based off race (which brings up india where the caste system is still in place and has been around probally about as long as china). They would have all enjoyed a better life as a whole. I am not saying their weren't exceptions to the rule. But the hobgoblins are definetly painted by the ECS (and no I don't have it in front of me for the page(s)) as the guys in charge. Note that the 6 kings statues are venerated by about all the goblinoids and thier all hobgoblins. The fact that the 6 kings were hobgoblin doesn't remove the taint of overt racism that would permeate if hobgoblins were the only ones allowed to rule. I'm sorry, for a culture to reach the height of power the Dhakaani achieved and to maintain the level of efficiency required to dominate the continent for as long as they did, the race of the person making the decisions couldn't matter. I'm not saying the hobgoblins didn't have hereditary rulers, they most likely did. But the empire itself would have to have been administered by individuals capable of the task rather than simply having been born a hobgoblin.
lordalm 11-05-06, 11:56 AM	The fact that the 6 kings were hobgoblin doesn't remove the taint of overt racism that would permeate if hobgoblins were the only ones allowed to rule. I'm sorry, for a culture to reach the height of power the Dhakaani achieved and to maintain the level of efficiency required to dominate the continent for as long as they did, the race of the person making the decisions couldn't matter. I'm not saying the hobgoblins didn't have hereditary rulers, they most likely did. But the empire itself would have to have been administered by individuals capable of the task rather than simply having been born a hobgoblin. Agreed, but you have to remember that the Chinese had hereditary rulers and hereditary beucracy, at least for some positions (GB and GWB spring to mind as a real world anology, how GWB got elected more than once still puzzels me). If thier nation could survive that way, so could the Dhakanni. Note that things were pretty much in a terrible way with leadership at the top when the west started making inroads to China. Assuming that some careful pruning of the ole family tree went on, we can see the Dhakanni carrying on until the Dalkyr invasion. When the poop hit the fan, with the warlords rising as the power was taken out of the hands of the emperor out of necessity, and the eventual decline into savagery that was the state that greeted the first Sarlona settlers to the Lhazar Principalities and parts west.
goblin_pride 11-05-06, 02:38 PM	Agreed, but you have to remember that the Chinese had hereditary rulers and hereditary beucracy, at least for some positions. If thier nation could survive that way, so could the Dhakanni. Note that things were pretty much in a terrible way with leadership at the top when the west started making inroads to China. Assuming that some careful pruning of the ole family tree went on, we can see the Dhakanni carrying on until the Dalkyr invasion. When the poop hit the fan, with the warlords rising as the power was taken out of the hands of the emperor out of necessity, and the eventual decline into savagery that was the state that greeted the first Sarlona settlers to the Lhazar Principalities and parts west. Now this is where I see things a bit different. While there would have been families that did hold certain positions for extended periods, the position itself wouldn't have been hereditary. The family bloodlines would've simply provided the best candidates for the job over the course of many generations, so there would be an assumption that certain positions would be filled by members of those clans. My impression of the Dhakaani was always that they were more like the Japanese, with an imperial family that ruled in name but in actual point of fact it would be the military and civil authorities that actually ruled. The emperor or empress would simply be a figurehead with no real power beyond the walls of the imperial palaces. Even within the Capitol city, the running of the government would fall on the governor and general that ruled that part of the empire.
goblin_pride 11-06-06, 11:21 AM	On the ruins of Dhakaan Draal: "In the regions now occupied by the hags of Droaam they've built a great capitol city on the bones of the ancients. In the years since the first academics began puzzling together the history of the great Dhakaani Empire, one mystery has eluded us. We've seen palaces of the emperors in all the cities of the Dhakaani, but the city of palaces lies still buried. Legends and histories rescued from the few Dhakaani libraries we've secured tell us that in the days of glory, while the empire was at it's height, the emperors ruled from a city that held palaces for all the governors and generals of the empire. I ask you this, is the hag capitol at Great Crag built on the bones of Dhakaan Draal? Without slaughtering every inhabitant the likelihood of us being able to study the Dhakaani ruins there is very slim. Until we have the numbers to unseat the foul children of the Daelkyr, study of the cities of Cazhaak Draal and Suthar Draal may be the closest we ever come to finding out the truth of the disappearance of Dhakaan Draal. Part of the reason for the impact the Daelkyr invasion had on the Dhakaani Empire in the history I've worked out in my mind was the fact that their initial assaults were not only in the heart of the empire, but very close to the imperial seat as well. Dhakaan Draal, the imperial capitol would've been a choice prize for the Daelkyr. I put it as the Dhakaani ruins mentioned in the description of the city of Great Crag in the ECS. While this causes the chances to study the capitol to effectively disappear, you have to remember that most of the first part of the daelkyr invasion was fought as a guerilla war. With the Dhakaani retreating away from the heart of their empire in the face of an enemy that they seemingly couldn't defeat, abandoning the capitol would be the mark of shame worthy of the civil strife that tore the empire apart after it's victory. Without the imperial throne and the city of palaces to look to, the warlords would simply crown themselves and the empire would come to a bitter, bloody end. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The city of Dhakaan Draal, jewel of the empire, the seat of power, the city of palaces, the garden of the emperor, was a city composed of the palace of the empire and the palaces of the government of each of the provinces in the empire. Central to the city was the Imperial Palace, a place of unearthly beauty and serenity, where the gardens were said to extend for acres. Within the palace of the emperor were armies of servants and dignitaries from each of the provinces under his vassal's control.The provincial palaces were built around the imperial palace forming a defensive ring of fortresses encircling the outer walls of the imperial palace. Each of the provincial palaces was nominally home to the governor of the region it was named for, however, it was more often the residence of an advisor to the crown named by the governor to speak in his stead to the emperor. Beyond the ring of palaces surrounding the Imperial palace was the city. As the capitol of the empire, the city grew fat on the imports of all manner of goods from every corner of the empire. Trading houses grew from the clans that plied the trade roads of the empire. Gold flowed like water in the marketplaces of the capitol and the trade houses built lavish homes for themselves there, almost rivaling the provincial palaces. The outlying portions of the city were home to the workmen that made the goods needed in the city. Built far from the palaces of the wealthy and powerful, the tradesman's districts were hidden from the view of the well-to-do by building them away from the center and behind walls. Those who toiled in the capitol had the best of the empire. They were protected from harm by the same walls that protected their betters from having to see them. While still living in what could be called tenements, they were built to a better standard as befit the capitol. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The materials of choice within the capitol for building varied, depending on the use of a given building. Stone was used extensively for the defensive structures, cut and formed to be aestheticly pleasing and smoothed after construction to make it seem as though it had always been there. Timber was used widely in the poorer districts of the city, yet still lacquered and polished to make it pleasing to the eye. Most buildings were built with large interior spaces, screened off into seperate rooms by panels made of rice paper. Adornments made from various metals was common in all parts of the city from the copper decorations in the tenements of the tradesman's wards to the golden adornments in the palaces.
ArcTan 11-06-06, 11:02 PM	One of the players in the group I play with currently I've known for 4-5 years and I keep finding out his views on things like the creation/evolution debate. Sometimes you don't know a person's take on more controversial issues until those come to the forefront. And that alone would be the reason I would leave the issue out of the game. I apologize if it sounded like a blanket censorship statement. I was simply trying to suggest that it might be a matter best left for discussing somewhere other than the gaming table. I wouldn't ever try to use a D&D session as a way to make any sort of overt political point, but simply saying that natural selection functions to create speciation and evolution in the D&D world is not a "discussion" of origins debates. It's simply a way to explain some things that have to be explained if you're going to cover timescales of millions of years and the history of the creation of the world and such. It's not like you should take the basic truths of the D&D world to be some kind of statement about what the DM considers to be true in reality -- after all, I don't believe in a polytheistic pantheon or in psionic powers or in cryptozoological "monsters" in the real world, but they exist in my D&D games.
ArcTan 11-06-06, 11:10 PM	The fact that the 6 kings were hobgoblin doesn't remove the taint of overt racism that would permeate if hobgoblins were the only ones allowed to rule. I'm sorry, for a culture to reach the height of power the Dhakaani achieved and to maintain the level of efficiency required to dominate the continent for as long as they did, the race of the person making the decisions couldn't matter. I'm not saying the hobgoblins didn't have hereditary rulers, they most likely did. But the empire itself would have to have been administered by individuals capable of the task rather than simply having been born a hobgoblin. I'm sorry, that's still you making assumptions. How do you *know* that a static race-based hierarchy is impossible? We certainly see static "race"-based hierarchies in animals, where different members of the species have very clearly biologically defined roles. Yes, it's more difficult to make it work with higher animals than social insects, but still. The fact that racism has been a problem for human society doesn't mean it couldn't work for another species, or set of species. And that's the really important thing -- the goblinoids species really are separate, related species, *not* races in the human sense of the term. There are huge morphological differences among them in terms of strength, size and intellectual capacity. They look obviously different when we see them. (A Goblin is, what, a twentieth of the size of a Bugbear?) They have racial stat mods. Yes, in real life, people made assumptions like this about human races that have proven to be false, and blatantly misused to abuse people unfairly. That doesn't mean it can't be true elsewhere. That's *why it's interesting* -- the goblinoids are alien, and strange, and frightening, because what for us is a lie is for them truth. They lived in a society so ordered, so organized, so predictable, they could *warp the flesh* of their people to fit their social caste. You weren't just born into your role in life by tradition, but in your skin, bones, muscles and brain. From birth to death your body and mind were those of a soldier, an artisan, a peasant or a leader. Extreme Lawful-ness. An empire that lasted perhaps an order of magnitude longer than any human empire, because they were *not* driven by the same passions and instabilities that mark human society. That's what makes the idea of Dhakaan fascinating to me. You're still using a constant bevy of human-centric, real-world-centric assumptions to say what's possible or impossible in Dhakaan, and that bothers me. Dhakaan is interesting because it's not the real world. Dhakaan is interesting because it's a world where a social system that insists people can be born into their role, told exactly what to do and how to live by society, and live their whole lives devoted to an abstract idea of Law can make an empire that lasts ten thousand years. Where a single proto-race can voluntarily and scientifically breed itself into entirely separate, true-breeding species *intentionally* so each can serve its political role. It's not just that there's a *prejudice* that Hobgoblins are more suited to lead -- they are literally beings *created* to lead. They are the proto-goblinoid race with all the leadership abilities bred into them, who are biologically unsuited to do anything else, just as Bugbears are bred for incredible, distorted, superhuman (or, rather, super-proto-goblinoid) size and strength, and Goblins were bred for increasing intelligence and fine muscle control and *numbers* so that they turned into a pygmy race that bred like rats and developed and learned incredibly fast. That's not an obstacle, because of its "unrealism", in my mind. That's *cool*, and it's cool because it's so different from anything we know in human history.
Neofish 11-07-06, 01:40 AM	Well said ArcTan, well said.
lordalm 11-07-06, 12:49 PM	Forgive the lack of quotes read above for what I will be addressing. To start, the societial make up of the Dhakaani. I have been drawing analogies from the real world to kind of paint my take on the gobloniod empire. Like goblin pride I see elements from the far east making an appearance in thier culture. Unlike him, I see the warrior attitude of the samuari and ninja making up the martial side of the empire, the chinese beuacracy making up the day to day running of the empire and the indian caste system to help explain the divisions and why they continued to exist in the empire based off the different off shoots of the goblinoid family tree. Unlike ArcTan I don't see the whole lawful dedication thing being all that high and over reaching, let alone "breeding progroms" in place to acheive. All the races existed pre-empire after all. Going back to the Hindu caste system. Its been around for centuries and even with its current growing pains from the western world injection of merit over birth, it stills continues. So the real world does paint how things could be. Time frame is largely a matter of belief in my opion. It is a fantasy world and they are fantasy creatures. I see no problem with them as they are painted in the ECS. After all the Demons had a million years of rule on the planet before the dragons decided to rise up.
Joni-san 11-07-06, 01:04 PM	Forgive the lack of quotes read above for what I will be addressing. No need to beg forgiveness for this one. Most people quote very rarely as there is rarely a need for it. And even then some cut the previous post(s) up into several parts. Or do what I do *Write "Stuff" or something about the topic People usually get the point of what one is talking about
goblin_pride 11-07-06, 02:36 PM	That's not an obstacle, because of its "unrealism", in my mind. That's *cool*, and it's cool because it's so different from anything we know in human history. Human history doesn't go back 11,000 years, that is to say that the human recording of events doesn't go back 11,000 years. You want an accomplishment that's completely alien? Try an empire where the people want to cooperate for the greater good instead of being bred to their roles. You can explain away everything with genetics if you want, but to my mind the greatness of the empire wasn't it's size, it was the willingness to work for the betterment of all, rather than slavishly toiling because that's was the whole purpose of the species' creation. If you want goblinoids that are genetically altered to fit their role in society, go play warhammer. I've explained in the simplest terms my ideas ways in which the empire could've grown to it's maximum size and still fallen. That whole "fall of the empire" thing becomes a bit hard to explain if the goblinoids are genetically casted like insects. And as to being human-centric, that's because I am, and assuming that you're walking around on the planet Earth, so are you. By putting things in terms that are familiar, we can understand something better and the differences become that much more important.Without the goblinoids being "human", they become nothing more than cardboard cutouts. It's in the alienness that people find justification for all the things they wouldn't dare do to another "human". Remember that whole Daelkyr war? You know the one, that little incursion by the "flesh-shapers" that the goblinoids fought tooth and nail against. It doesn't really make sense to fight them if they have the ability to speciate themselves, why not simply let the Daelkyr win and then just respeciate? Rather than making goblinoids completely alien and able to alter themselves to fit their roles, I've tried to make an empire that would make use of their naturally occuring strengths. If you want the goblinoids in your game to shoot laser beams out of their eyes and fireballs out their arses, go right ahead, that's the advantage of the boards, none of this is canon.
goblin_pride 11-07-06, 03:03 PM	To start, the societial make up of the Dhakaani. I have been drawing analogies from the real world to kind of paint my take on the gobloniod empire. Like goblin pride I see elements from the far east making an appearance in thier culture. Unlike him, I see the warrior attitude of the samuari and ninja making up the martial side of the empire, the chinese beuacracy making up the day to day running of the empire and the indian caste system to help explain the divisions and why they continued to exist in the empire based off the different off shoots of the goblinoid family tree. Unlike ArcTan I don't see the whole lawful dedication thing being all that high and over reaching, let alone "breeding progroms" in place to acheive. All the races existed pre-empire after all. Going back to the Hindu caste system. Its been around for centuries and even with its current growing pains from the western world injection of merit over birth, it stills continues. So the real world does paint how things could be. Time frame is largely a matter of belief in my opion. It is a fantasy world and they are fantasy creatures. I see no problem with them as they are painted in the ECS. After all the Demons had a million years of rule on the planet before the dragons decided to rise up. Part of the reason I keep going back to the medieval Japanese and ancient Roman cultures for influence is their level of sophistication and their Caste systems. India wasn't the only casted society in the ancient and medieval world but it was one of the most rigid. The flexibility of the caste system would've been important to the Dhakaani empire to ensure a degree of meritocracy. Without examples of people rising above their station, a society would probably grow apathetic and stagnant. The serious problem I have with a caste system like the Hindu is that it offers absolutely no vertical movement at all. With the Eberron afterlife, there's no reward at all for living a good life, you'll never have things any better than you do now. Assuming the agnostic empire didn't believe in an afterlife, that leaves no incentive for their daily toils. I've said it before and I feel I need to say it again. The system where the hobgoblins rule, the bugbears are warriors and the goblins are slaves wouldn't work. When the fastest breeding and majority population is subjuagted simply because "they're goblins" you can expect uprisings on a regular basis. Why would the goblins serve an empire that treated them as second-class citizens? Without giving the majority of the population a stake in the game, they probably would reshuffle the deck.
Siran Dunmorgan 11-07-06, 04:47 PM	Assuming that some careful pruning of the ole family tree went on, we can see the Dhakanni carrying on until the Dalkyr invasion. When the poop hit the fan, with the warlords rising as the power was taken out of the hands of the emperor out of necessity, and the eventual decline into savagery that was the state that greeted the first Sarlona settlers to the Lhazar Principalities and parts west. The war with the daelkyr was not the cause of the fall of the Empire of Dhakaan. It was the trigger, certainly, but after the daelkyr were defeated, the Empire would have survived intact if not for certain other interests that ensured its fall. When talking about the Empire, we all tend to neglect this Dragonshard, describing the actual circumstances surrounding the fall of the Empire: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041129a Particularly consider the third paragraph under the heading "Jungle Rats." —Siran Dunmorgan
lordalm 11-07-06, 04:57 PM	The war with the daelkyr was not the cause of the fall of the Empire of Dhakaan. It was the trigger, certainly, but after the daelkyr were defeated, the Empire would have survived intact if not for certain other interests that ensured its fall. When talking about the Empire, we all tend to neglect this Dragonshard, describing the actual circumstances surrounding the fall of the Empire: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041129a Particularly consider the third paragraph under the heading "Jungle Rats." —Siran Dunmorgan Actually I had forgotten that. And I agree with the Dhalyker being the trigger/deathblow that brought the goblinoids low. It was a variety of factors that caused the empire to splinter.
goblin_pride 11-07-06, 06:28 PM	The war with the daelkyr was not the cause of the fall of the Empire of Dhakaan. It was the trigger, certainly, but after the daelkyr were defeated, the Empire would have survived intact if not for certain other interests that ensured its fall. When talking about the Empire, we all tend to neglect this Dragonshard, describing the actual circumstances surrounding the fall of the Empire: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041129a Particularly consider the third paragraph under the heading "Jungle Rats." —Siran Dunmorgan That's where I read that, I was wracking my brain trying to remember what article that was in. I just wonder if the Gnomes would hold some sort of animosity from the ancient history of their country or do the goblinoids that live next door not really bother them. Kinda puts Darguun in a bit of a pickle, the Valenar to one side and the Zil to the other. Woohoo, Breland here we come!
eehamburg 11-08-06, 09:35 AM	All just more to add to the mix as to what caused the downfall. First, you got the Daelkyr. Then comes the infighting and civil wars. Then you got the Jungle Rats to pick at their heals and nip at them from all sides and from within. Finally, they all turn on each other from outside and from within... and BOOM no more Empire. Makes sense ... doesn't it?
lordalm 11-08-06, 11:48 AM	Goblin Pride and I have been sending emails continuing this discussion off board. He brought up a good point as to how the empire might have lasted for 11k years. He indicated that a level of atonomy for each province where they would keep the army up and pay thier taxes and everything was all right by the emperor and friends. I should point out that I have just started reading the Eberron faiths book and the soveregin host is a monolithic body. Its a bunch of little ones goverening thier own areas that share a common relegion. And they've been around a long time too.....
Siran Dunmorgan 11-08-06, 11:54 AM	All just more to add to the mix as to what caused the downfall. First, you got the Daelkyr. Then comes the infighting and civil wars. Then you got the Jungle Rats to pick at their heals and nip at them from all sides and from within. Finally, they all turn on each other from outside and from within... and BOOM no more Empire. Makes sense ... doesn't it? Aye, but the point is that the Jungle Rats didn't just pick at their heels and nip at them: the ancestors of the Zil put together a comprehensive, coordinated plan with the destruction of the Empire as its goal. In this sense, the Zil deliberately completed the work that the daelkyr began. If any racial animosity exists, it may be that those Dhakaani clans who discover the truth about why they no longer rule Khorvaire should want to perform a curettment of Zilargo. —Siran Dunmorgan
eehamburg 11-08-06, 11:56 AM	Goblin Pride and I have been sending emails continuing this discussion off board. Can you share this wisdom with the rest of us?
eehamburg 11-08-06, 11:59 AM	In this sense, the Zil deliberately completed the work that the daelkyr began. This within itself speaks to the ruthlessness of the tactics employed by the Jungle Rats and how it mihgt develop and evolve over time to be used in the modern era... Never cross the Zil today. If any racial animosity exists, it may be that those Dhakaani clans who discover the truth about why they no longer rule Khorvaire should want to perform a curettment of Zilargo. Hobs vs Gnomes ... who would win? How would such a conflict take place today?
goblin_pride 11-08-06, 02:29 PM	Can you share this wisdom with the rest of us? I was reading the PGtE the other day and I spotted a mention of the orcish "client states" of the empire and it got me thinking.I have a slight problem with it because of the whole gatekeeper incident and it states clearly that most of the orc tribes outright refused to be included in the empire. Maybe it was the reference to war with the orc kingdoms in the west, I could be mistaken though. It was that little two word phrase "client state" that caught my attention. All this time the focus has been on one empire, one people, and one unified culture. As I thought about this I was reminded of the way the Mongols and the Romans ruled some of the smaller kingdoms that they occupied. It was a bit odd, they would actually leave the previous government in power with a governor appointed by the empire. As long as the client state's obligation to the armies of the empire was fulfilled and their taxes paid, they were left alone. If their obligation to the empire was ever unfulfilled, the Imperial governor would use the troops under his command to make a vacancy on the local throne. The first advantage to this idea would be that most of the regions of the empire would be semi-autonomous, so the empire itself wouldn't need a huge bureaucracy to deal with it. It would create a patchwork empire that paid it's yearly obligations to the Imperial throne or suddenly found itself being reacquired as an imperial possession. The absolute best example of this is the Roman province of Judea. Things ran quite well in Judea until the revolt in 70 CE (AD) when the Roman governor was forced to raze the fortifications of the province and bring it's government and the rebels to heel. The local Judean kings held power that was held in check by an imperial governor with all the military might of the empire at his disposal. Secondly, it leaves a very good reason for the final break-up of the empire. With all of the various regions of the empire being semi-autonomous, the fall of the Dhakaani capitol wouldn't be such a terrible loss to the provinces them selves. With each province operating as a mini-kingdom in the greater empire, the means to stand alone would be there after the decapitating strike by the Daelkyr. If the empire had a dozen crowned heads in it's provinces, who's going to order the armies to restore imperial authority when the emperor and capitol are both destroyed. With the Imperial governors and the local kings embroiled in a power struggle across the whole of the empire, the whole empire would simply disintegrate. And finally, the patchwork empire allows for the existance of multiple styles of government and culture across the empire. While one region may be completely unlike their neighbors, the one thing they do have in common is that the empire rules over both. And by rules over both, I mean that the empire is there to make sure the locals build roads to support the empire, pay their taxes (both coin and body) and don't step out of line.
goblin_pride 11-08-06, 02:33 PM	Hobs vs Gnomes ... who would win? How would such a conflict take place today? The Gnomes, they have the home field advantage and the small size makes them much harder to destroy utterly. Now goblins and gnomes might be a bit harder to call.
eehamburg 11-08-06, 03:41 PM	I was reading the PGtE the other day and I spotted a mention of the orcish "client states" of the empire and it got me thinking. Your whole line of thinking here is excellent. It certainly provides additional explanation of the fluidity of a 11k empire ... especially if the empire is like a hemogeny with 1 state exerting control over another. Then there is the fact that you have the 6 kings. 6 kings, 6 kingdoms. Ruled together. And of course, with client-states, they could be states that had warred with the empire and lost. Such is the case of Gaul. Or they could be states that were simply overtaken. Such is the case of Egypt. The examples are Roman. Any case. It proves that it is possible and probable so therefore it is most likely the case. This should be further explored. Who were all of the nations of the Empire? How did they get along? What were their reasons for being part of the Empire? How were they run? Stuff like that. I think that Kech Volaar has a lot of work to do to explain all of this.
eehamburg 11-08-06, 03:43 PM	The Gnomes, they have the home field advantage and the small size makes them much harder to destroy utterly. Now goblins and gnomes might be a bit harder to call. Ok ... maybe I wasn't clear ... what I really mean was ... I am wondering about the details of the conflicts between the Empire and the gnomes. How were they handled? What tactics were used? How was it viewed from the Empire? We know that the gnomes met them as a single unit, but did the Empire take it seriously or was it a joke? What troops would they send? Would Kech Sharaat be involved? How would the gnome vs goblin fights be handled? Same size and abilities and all. Stuff like that.
goblin_pride 11-08-06, 04:21 PM	Ok ... maybe I wasn't clear ... what I really mean was ... I am wondering about the details of the conflicts between the Empire and the gnomes. How were they handled? What tactics were used? How was it viewed from the Empire? We know that the gnomes met them as a single unit, but did the Empire take it seriously or was it a joke? What troops would they send? Would Kech Sharaat be involved? How would the gnome vs goblin fights be handled? Same size and abilities and all. Stuff like that. The question of tactics is a bit muddy with the empire. Each race would have tactics that fit their strengths. Depending on the race of the commander and the racial make-up of his troops, the Zil jungle rat problem would be handled differently. I would make the Zil attack each race slightly different, playing off weaknesses in that particular type of goblinoid. The Hobgoblins would use more of a set-piece tactic than the others so the Zil would more likely than not snipe from the fringes of the columns while they were on the move. The bugbears are ungodly strong compared to the Zil so they'd prob'ly use alot of sniping attacks to get them charging into traps (Archers around pit traps would be unbelievably lethal). The goblins would probably be the most effective though, they would be using similar guerilla tactics, trying to erode the Zil support structures while actively hunting them. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've run into a bit of a problem with the Dhakaani remnant tribes in the mountains of Darguun. The names of the tribes are based on a blade wielded by the leader of the tribe and the current plans for the restoration of the empire. So does that mean the names are relatively new or did they date from the period at the begining of the hiding? The surname Dhakaan is used with both tribes, so there's some doubt as to whether they were factioned apart in the empire or after the fall. We know that the tribes are made up of multiple clans from the readings, so are the two Dhakaani tribes new? It's easily possible to see them as a reforming of the various clans into two distinct seperate tribes in the modern period because we have a reference in the ECS to the Kech Sharaat bringing most of the clans into the fold. Now if that's the case, the Kech Sharaat might have been a clan within the empire during it's height and as a tributary clan they would've had a dhakaani governor to give them that surname and bloodline during the hiding period. I think this means we need to focus on a bit more of the relevance of the clan and tribe structure of the empire.
lordalm 11-08-06, 05:21 PM	Can you share this wisdom with the rest of us? Goblin pride has this thing about polishing his thought process before posting. Me I'am largley unpolished....
lordalm 11-08-06, 05:25 PM	This within itself speaks to the ruthlessness of the tactics employed by the Jungle Rats and how it mihgt develop and evolve over time to be used in the modern era... Never cross the Zil today. Hobs vs Gnomes ... who would win? How would such a conflict take place today? Stand about the same height, weigh about the same. Neither is really more intelligent than the other. Gobs are sneaker by race. the Zil are painted as being very sneaky in the political and thinking. Straight up fight, the gobos. Sneaky fight not so clear. Meaner, the Zil. Definetly meaner....
lordalm 11-08-06, 05:33 PM	Secondly, it leaves a very good reason for the final break-up of the empire. With all of the various regions of the empire being semi-autonomous, the fall of the Dhakaani capitol wouldn't be such a terrible loss to the provinces them selves. With each province operating as a mini-kingdom in the greater empire, the means to stand alone would be there after the decapitating strike by the Daelkyr. If the empire had a dozen crowned heads in it's provinces, who's going to order the armies to restore imperial authority when the emperor and capitol are both destroyed. With the Imperial governors and the local kings embroiled in a power struggle across the whole of the empire, the whole empire would simply disintegrate. This would also fit with the published material that mentions warlords.
Neofish 11-08-06, 05:46 PM	It was that little two word phrase "client state" that caught my attention. All this time the focus has been on one empire, one people, and one unified culture. Almost like the Confederacy I had envisioned and brought up in one of my first posts, sweet! For the most part, I stop replying to this thread because it was deviating from what I had in mind, so rather than argue and risk derailing the thread, I simply shut up and moved on. I had always thought that a cooperative style of government was the better way to go, if for the simple fact that in the current day Darguun, you still see such prominant clan culture. If there had been a single, unfied empire, then all the smaller clans that made up the tribes and all the tribes that made up the empire would be subsumed into the empire's dogma, rather than it's own. At least, that's how I saw it. That the empire was ruled over by a council rather than a monarch and military prefix (sp?)
lordalm 11-08-06, 05:49 PM	Wasn't there 3 clans in hiding? And thats just in Dharguun. What about the rest of Khorvaire? I would suspect that there where more retreats by other clans. Now they may have been hacked to pieces by the invading humans and elves, but still, why only Darguun?
eehamburg 11-08-06, 05:55 PM	Goblin pride has this thing about polishing his thought process before posting. Me I'am largley unpolished.... so give us the unpolished.
Neofish 11-08-06, 05:56 PM	Wasn't there 3 clans in hiding? And thats just in Dharguun. What about the rest of Khorvaire? I would suspect that there where more retreats by other clans. Now they may have been hacked to pieces by the invading humans and elves, but still, why only Darguun? That's what i'm talking about, there are a ton of culturally diverse goblin clans, all over to current day Khorvaire, each one with different traditions and beliefs Now, if they had all be at one time, a singular, unfied body, then all their beliefs and ideals would at the core be the same (after the fall, i'd imagine they would deviate somewhat, but not so much that similarities couldn't be found). I'm just saying, when Dragonshard articles or the ECS talks about clans, so of them are a mellenia old, and if the Empire had been of a single body, then how did the traditions of the various clans co-exist (rather than be subsumed [again, is my spelling off? i'll look it up later and edit if necessary]).
eehamburg 11-08-06, 05:57 PM	For the most part, I stop replying to this thread because it was deviating from what I had in mind, so rather than argue and risk derailing the thread, I simply shut up and moved on. Just because you have a difference of opinion doesn't mean that you shouldn't post. No one controls the thread. It is a free-for-all. If you feel that you have something to contribute and that we can gave something from your insight or your ideas and imagination, then let's hear it. All opinions are welcome. Do not be afraid. Perhaps, some idea of yours will spur another idea of someone else. What ideas do you have?
Siran Dunmorgan 11-08-06, 07:11 PM	My understanding is that Darguun is a kind of gathering point for the goblinoids, someplace where they've been out in the open for a long time. Over the rest of Khorvaire, the Dhakaani have been (and largely continue to be) in hiding. Let me see if I can clarify this idea. Millenia ago, the goblinoids controlled pretty much everything now characterized as the Five Nations, plus a fair piece of what's now the Eldeen Reaches, Droaam, Valenar, and the Talenta plains, but not Q'barra, the area now occupied by the Mror Holds, the Shadow Marches, nor, of course, the Demon Wastes. I'm not going to go much into detail about the various governing structures of the Empire, at this point, except to point out that it was something that we describe with the word "Empire," which implies a central government coordinating the activities of the various nations of which the Empire is composed. With the Empire at its height, the stars came right, and the daelkyr invaded, the principal gates being in the Shadow Marches. This resulted in a rather devastating war fought across Khorvaire. In the aftermath of the war, the Zil took advantage of the Empire's relatively weakened condition to collapse it, and remove it as a continuing threat. Now, goblinoids have darkvision, not merely low-light vision, and the implication of certain other characteristics suggests that they have always been comfortable living both above and below ground: their cities often extend into either natural or excavated caverns and other below-ground works. When the humans arrived (a somewhat traumatic event for the goblinoids, given that human males closely resemble daelkyr), many of the surviving tribes fled underground. This happened all over Khorvaire, not merely in the mountains around what is now Darguun. Those tribes who did not flee simply integrated in-place into the nascent societies of the Five Nations, becoming what we characterize as "city goblins." In some outlying areas, most notably those we now call Droaam and Darguun, but also elsewhere such as northern Karrnath, the Eldeen Reaches, northern Breland and other areas, a scattered few goblin tribes maintained an above-ground existence. This situation persisted through the formation of the Five Nations, the War of the Mark, and the foundation of the Kingdom of Galifar. Things changed, however, when Haruuc came to power among the Darguul: with the foundation of Darguun as a nation-state, tribes from all over Khorvaire migrated there, and those Dhakaani clans that dwelt in the mountains around Darguun also revealed themselves from their long concealment. As much as I have said so far is either stated in, or can be derived directly from canon or at least from hadith; from this point we enter the realm of speculation. There is no particular reason to believe that the Dhakaani clans of Darguun are the only Dhakaani remnants in Khorvaire. There may be a great number of clans still in hiding in the deep places of the continent. Indeed, some of them may still be carrying on the millenia-spanning war against the daelkyr. For myself, the Eberron my players find spread before them has numerous goblinoid tribes still living in all of the remote places: nearly every mountain range in the Five Nations has a tribe or two: these tribes are typically bound by oaths of fealty (renewed with each generation) to the Crown of the nation in which they live. In some nations (Karrnath) they are integrated into the government and military forces of the kingdom[1]; in others (Cyre-that-was), they are more or less neglected. Darguun is not—in my campaign—treated as an ancestral goblinoid homeland, but merely as the first place that the goblinoids have been able to dominate since the rise of Galifar. Now, that said, it has a profound attraction to goblinoids from all over Khorvaire. But, aye, they're everywhere, and have been for a very long time. —Siran Dunmorgan [1] I hold that Karrnath commands the fealty of several hobgoblin warlords, for example: the goblin knights in service to them have a noble reputation in their own right.
goblin_pride 11-08-06, 09:30 PM	My understanding is that Darguun is a kind of gathering point for the goblinoids, someplace where they've been out in the open for a long time. Over the rest of Khorvaire, the Dhakaani have been (and largely continue to be) in hiding. Part of the reason Darguun became important was it's position as part of Cyre bordering Breland. As a border it was garrisoned by Goblinoid mercenaries. So when old Haruuc pulled off his little coup, why bother to move them? It just happened as pure luck that Volaar Draal, one of the last remaining Draals of the Dhakaani empire happened to be in Darguun. And as far as the world knows, the goblinoids included, it is the last.
goblin_pride 11-08-06, 10:17 PM	My thinking on the clans and tribes of the goblinoids: The goblinoid clans are numerous, it's not a matter of a couple, I'm talking about hundreds if not thousands. All of these clans have a base identity that relates to others around them, but there's usually some major difference that seperates a given clan. Some might be offshoots from a larger clan that got too large for it's territory to support it or perhaps the offspring of a great hero within the clan simply drifted off to form a new clan over hundreds of years. Tribes among the goblinoids are a collection of somewhat related clans bound together under the leadership of a single clan. The original Tribe structure would've included the right of any clan leader to counsel the tribe's leader. As a unified political body, the tribe would be able to use more resources because it would have the resources of all it's member clans to draw from. The empire originally started when a collection of Tribal leaders decided that the tribes could do more if they allied themselves with other tribes. When it was decided the Dhakaan clan of the Dhakaan tribe would lead this alliance of unified tribes and clans, the Dhakaani empire was born. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally in the empire it was decided that every clan would have the right to counsel the leader of all the clans. At first this was a fairly simple affair because there weren't that many. As more tribes flocked to the Dhakaani banner the number of clans in the empire grew and problems began to develop. The solution came in the form of a grand council, where any clan's leader could speak and have his problems addressed by the emperor. Over time, the grand council became more important in the running of the empire, passing laws and appointing governors for the Imperial territories. While all clan leaders were members of the grand council, attendance wasn't mandatory unless ordered by the emperor to renew the oaths of fealty to the empire. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- That's the unpolished version, hopefully it made some kind of sense.
Darth Syntax 11-08-06, 11:24 PM	The empire originally started when a collection of Tribal leaders decided that the tribes could do more if they allied themselves with other tribes. When it was decided the Dhakaan clan of the Dhakaan tribe would lead this alliance of unified tribes and clans, the Dhakaani empire was born. I have a slightly different view of the Dhakaani relation to the clans. The empire denied the legitimacy of the clans and repressed clan loyalty (replacing it with state, and social class identity) because the founders of the empire grew tried of the warring between the clans. The empire was a grand experiment in crafting a wholly new kind of social order, and the old tribalism had to be abandoned. The Mytho-historical account of the founding of the empire recounts that Hlaarai Dhakaan, a bard and dirge singer, petitioned the warlords of the six great clans of the Dharlukesh (central and southern Khorvaire) to end their ceaseless wars. Initially, Dhakaan and her ideas were rejected and she was charged with treason and sent into exile. Eventually she found a patron, the warlord of a rival clan, and wrote down her conversations with him concerning the proper means of governing. These records became the foundation of what would later become The Discourses, one of the central texts of the Empire. Dhakaan's patron began to implement her ideas, and somewhat to his surprise, the people followed, and indeed lauded him for his wise leadership. His armies became invincible, and he began to crush his foes. Eventually, Dhakaan convinced her patron to gather the other five warlords and work out of peace treaty. Initially the warlords were unhappy with giving up their centuries long wars, but when Dhakaan promised to teach them the secret that had made her patron invincible, the stopped their bitter arguments and listened like children to a wise teacher. She told them of the Law, and its cycles. She told them that the old hatreds and the old systems would have to be done away with, because they had only lead to bloodshed and conflict. And she gave to them what she called 'my simple, unfinished, revelation', that it was through cooperation, through the harnessing of the strengths of all the people of the Dharlukesh, that stability and order could be maintained. Supposedly the warlords (six in number) undertook the monumental task of reshaping society. They implemented Dhakaan's caste system, which was based on aptitude rather than on blood. It is true that certain castes contained far more of one species than another, but it was by no means absolute. The Original Dhakaani Caste System, with rough population breakdowns The Low Castes Chattel slaves (dazhun): originally composed of a mix of species (primarily goblinoids) this would eventually consist mostly of orcs from the west, and kobolds brought over from Argonessen Serfs (yhōkt): The serfs were originally drawn from the vast number of unskilled laborers and farmers in the empire, mostly goblins and hobgoblins. They were bound to the land they were born on, but were not technically slaves as they could not be sold. Free Laborers and Farmers (izhen and etem): similar is composition to the yhōkt, the farmers and laborers could own small plots of land, and were allowed freedom of movement. These were mostly hobgoblins and goblins as well. Middle Castes Skilled Laborers and Artisans (Shutav): composed largely of hobgoblins (50%) with some goblins (30%) bugbears (15%) and others (5%). These were mostly from urbanized populations and represented the beginings of the middle classes. They were generally not allowed to own property. The Merchants (metďkärö): Composed largely of hobgoblins, the merchant classes were well respected. They were not allowed to own property other than their places of business and their homes. The Free Soldiers (Braton Ghaal): Composed generally of hobgoblins and bugbears, the free soldiers composed the largest part of the military, as well providing the largest numbers of engineers in the empire. The High Castes The Slave-Soldiers (Dazhutran): composed of hobgoblins, bugbears, and occasionally others (some goblins, some orcs, etc). The Dazhutran were selected to serve as the elite soldier-sages of the empire when they were children. (basically janissaries) The Civil Servants (Itel Shonakt): composed overwhelmingly of goblins (due to their intellectual aptitude), the Civil Servants were a caste determined by merit, not by birth. Any promising child of sufficient intelligence was allowed access of a small degree of education, provided at no cost. This education was designed to provide enough of an intellectual background to take (and possibly pass) the battery of civil service exams. Should one pass these exams, they would become members of the complex and seemingly endless Dhakaani bureaucracy. The Bards)(kalaaron): Composed mostly of Hobgoblins (with a scant few goblins and bugbears), the bardic caste represented the cultural and artistic elite of the empire. Bards were expected to know operas, epics, riddle cycles (if they were goblins) as well as be conversant in history, law, politics , and the art of war. In addition to providing bards-proper, this caste also produced the largest number of advocates (trial lawyers/orators). The Aristocracy(hothyatun): composed again mostly of hobgoblins, these were the private land owners and occasionally the military leaders. By the era of the Nine Golden Generals the aristocracy had all but collapsed, being replaced by the civil servants and the bards. -- Well, that's probably enough rambling from me for the moment.
MetaEidolon 11-09-06, 04:28 AM	The work here is nothing short of amazing. Thank you all for such well thought-out and inspiring material! I'm not going to go through all the tedium of quoting the posts I'm referencing, so please forgive if this is unpolished and out of context. Firstly, in regards to the longevity of the empire, I am of two thoughts; That when referring to 11,000 years of empirical history, perhaps we should instead understand this as the history of the goblinoid civilization. The history of the United States is obviously not the history of Western Civilization. I am reminded, also, by the analogies to real-world empires and social structures of the Egyptians, who's history spanned multiple dynasties of families and perhaps styles of government. Perhaps the Five Kings give tribute to one of the greatest dynasties, and do not herald hobgoblins over other races? Secondly, I prefer Goblin_Pride's ideas of tribalism influencing the structure of the empire at it's height. A series of prioritized obligations, always first the the empire, but also one's clan, then tribe, and finally, one's own family. Darguun, as claimed but unused and uncared for land, was perfect for Haruuc to claim as a nation for his people, the ruins of Volaar Draal a symbol for the goblinoids to rise from their barbarism. In that same vein, perhaps dozens (Hundreds might push the envelope of believability) of tribes, clans and smaller nations, in varied states of barbarism spread throughout the continent, hidden in mountains, or deep in Kyber and unknown ruins of the ancient world. Some would flock to Haruuc's banner, some would challenge his ides and rule with their own traditions. The Gatekeepers, once a "client-nation" to the empire, would have become very important and integral in society, heroes in the Daelkyr wars, perhaps even religious figures. As to the Crag being built on the ruins of the greatest capitol of the empire, IMC, the daelkyr took great pleasure subverting the symbols and peoples of their enemies, even living in the Dhakaani cities (redecorating to their own tastes). Again, apologies for the lack of direction or polish.
goblin_pride 11-09-06, 07:58 AM	Darguun, as claimed but unused and uncared for land, was perfect for Haruuc to claim as a nation for his people, the ruins of Volaar Draal a symbol for the goblinoids to rise from their barbarism. In that same vein, perhaps dozens (Hundreds might push the envelope of believability) of tribes, clans and smaller nations, in varied states of barbarism spread throughout the continent, hidden in mountains, or deep in Kyber and unknown ruins of the ancient world. Some would flock to Haruuc's banner, some would challenge his ides and rule with their own traditions. Volaar Draal wasn't a ruin though, it was a thriving metropolis in the mountains hidden from view for some 4 millenia. The fact that a city that large could exist for so long without being discovered is a testament to the little regard the Cyrans had for this little backwater in their kingdom. The number of clans is based on a few family lines rather than hundreds of individuals. While clans are seperate entities, they do interact heavily with other clans. In a city you might find 20-50 individual clans and still have a population under 5000 individuals. Only the largest and most established clans would reach numbers over one thousand members and that would just be from the name being so important, so valued, or so influential that splintering off to form a new clan would be detrimental.
eehamburg 11-09-06, 09:08 AM	That's the unpolished version, hopefully it made some kind of sense. It does ... it really does. Well, that's probably enough rambling from me for the moment. And that little bit of rambling speaks volumes that can be used. The work here is nothing short of amazing. Thank you all for such well thought-out and inspiring material! I completely agree with this comment. I congratulate all who have given input in putting a wonderful vision. I'm not going to go through all the tedium of quoting the posts I'm referencing, so please forgive if this is unpolished and out of context. ..... Again, apologies for the lack of direction or polish. Nothing to apologize for. All opinions are welcome and all ideas are to be shared and appreciated.
goblin_pride 11-09-06, 09:56 AM	I have a slightly different view of the Dhakaani relation to the clans. The empire denied the legitimacy of the clans and repressed clan loyalty (replacing it with state, and social class identity) because the founders of the empire grew tried of the warring between the clans. The empire was a grand experiment in crafting a wholly new kind of social order, and the old tribalism had to be abandoned. The only real problem with this comes from the modern Dhakaani. If the empire was actively supressing the clan structure, why did the remnant tribes go back to it? In the explanation I've thought up, the clan is family. It's like the Patrician families in ancient Rome, the clans of the ancient Gaelic people and the clans of the ancient-medieval Japanese rolled into one. Political clout, wealth and influence could be drawn from nothing more than a goblinoid's clan, it's not as if that particular goblinoid has any themselves, but their family is well known for it. And the tribes that clans form themselves into would be similar in nature to the modern political parties, nothing more to a tribe in the empire period than certain clans that always seemed to agree in matters politic.
Darth Syntax 11-09-06, 10:59 AM	the modern 'Dhakaani' are not the direct linier descendants of the Empire. in the period following the Daelkyr wars much of the history of the empire was lost and the modern Dhakaani are going on nothing more than the scraps they have, and an oral tradition which has it's genesis in a culture that prised the art of exaggeration and mythic tale-telling. The reason for their clannish structure is they no longer have the infrastructure, the cultural capitol, nor the strong centralizing philosophy that made the empire possible. Their clans are all they have to work with, and it's all they know. If Turra (the head of the Kech Volaar and my general canidate for the next 'Law Giver' if there is to be one) manages to devise a convincing philosophy of Empire that draws in equal parts of the Ur-Dhakaani philosophy (gods i love that morpheme, thankyou german) and takes into account the present state of the world (which is what I see the main reason for the lack of unity, a failure to understand the current situation), then the clans might well unite and, hopefully, abandon the old allegiances and return to a semblance of an orderly and vibrant society. And then, my good friends, all bets are off: and who knows who might join such a society?
eehamburg 11-09-06, 11:50 AM	If the modern 'dhakaani' are not the direct linear descendants, then who are?
Darth Syntax 11-09-06, 01:55 PM	by descendants I mean cultural descendants. The modern Dhakaani have re-acquired the old ways in a deliberate attempt to recreate what they see (and rightly so) as the greatest of the goblinoid states. However, the 9,000 years sense the coming of the Daelkyr have not been kind them, and much of the old culture was lost, and replaced by other ideas, other cultures (goblinoid or otherwise) to create the goblinoid cultures we see today. The Kech Volaar and the Kech Shaarat are linguistically related to the Dhakaani, as vernacular OHD is the their linguistic ancestor, but they did not maintain every aspect of the old culture, indeed they forgot most of it. It has only been sense the rise the time of Karrn the conqueror that the modern Dhakaani have re-discovered their glorious past. They have embraced it, and it has become their culture once again, but modern circumstances and historical accidents have change both the people and the culture. It would be as though the modern Italians decided that they needed to revive the Roman Empire: there has been a lot of history between the romans and the modern Italians, and they are clearly not the same culture any more. If they tried to revive every roman practice, it would not go well for them. To cite the old saw 'Rome wasn't built in a day' seems appropriate, because neither was the Empire. It might well do to call the modern clans neo-dhakaani. -- In effect, I am trying to say that there is not an unbroken cultural continuance from the empire down through to the modern Dhakaani clans. Rather that the clans have 'converted' (for lack of a better term) to the ideas of the old empire as they have them, and have thus become 'Dhakaanized' once again.
MetaEidolon 11-09-06, 02:34 PM	The only real problem with this comes from the modern Dhakaani. If the empire was actively supressing the clan structure, why did the remnant tribes go back to it? In the explanation I've thought up, the clan is family. It's like the Patrician families in ancient Rome, the clans of the ancient Gaelic people and the clans of the ancient-medieval Japanese rolled into one. Political clout, wealth and influence could be drawn from nothing more than a goblinoid's clan, it's not as if that particular goblinoid has any themselves, but their family is well known for it. And the tribes that clans form themselves into would be similar in nature to the modern political parties, nothing more to a tribe in the empire period than certain clans that always seemed to agree in matters politic. I am reminded of the societal structure in Janny Wurts' Daughter of Empire Series, based on R. Feist's Riftwar. In that society, houses were tied to clans by bloodlines and ancient allegiances, clans in turn, were allied (often temporarily) to political parties. Actually, IMC, this structure has been highly influential in my vision of Ancient Reidra. I do not have the proper texts on hand, but it seems to me that is would be possible for Sarlona of old and Dhakaani, to share common influence or even possible for Sarlona to have been modeled on the structure of the Dhakaani. Does anyone know if the histories of the two civilizations could have intersected, early enough to create such a connection? Sorry for the tangent.
Ellorin 11-10-06, 04:52 AM	Here comes a question: what was the position of the Dhakaani towards sorcery? I understand that wizardry was not practiced in the empire, but the occasional innate spellcaster is another matter. Personally, I suppose that at least for the largest part of the empire's duration they would be treated as the aberrant dragonmarked are by the modern Khorvairian society- too powerful, too dangerous, their powers probably having a dark and/ or unstable source. After all, the ability to cast a fireball was a trademark of forces opposed to the empire, like the fiends and, later, the Tairnadal, or at least meddling and alien( a.k.a. the dragons). The fact that certain goblinoids turned to the Lords of Dust in their search fot he forbidden lore of wizardry certainly didn't benefit the sorcerers' position. Of course, there had been more enlightened periods where sorcery was seen as a useful asset of the empire. But these were not the norm. Thus, the avereage Dhakaani sorceror would try to deny or at least hide her talents-becoming a hermit was a common choice...as was the path of the outlaw. I admit I haven't given much thought to the subject- definitely unpolished... By the way, the idea that the Dhakaani favouring the theory of evolution was really good...although I would choose the Aereni necromancers, as depicted in the Elves of Aerenal, part 2 dragonshard as those who originally came up with it.
goblin_pride 11-10-06, 08:44 AM	Here comes a question: what was the position of the Dhakaani towards sorcery? I understand that wizardry was not practiced in the empire, but the occasional innate spellcaster is another matter. That's the advantage of a patchwork empire, they wouldn't have a unified opinion on it. As far as wizardry goes, I can't really see the Dhakaani having anything against it.
eehamburg 11-10-06, 08:47 AM	Here comes a question: what was the position of the Dhakaani towards sorcery? I understand that wizardry was not practiced in the empire, but the occasional innate spellcaster is another matter. I really can't see the Empire having an opinion one way or the other.
Ellorin 11-11-06, 04:48 AM	That's the advantage of a patchwork empire, they wouldn't have a unified opinion on it. As far as wizardry goes, I can't really see the Dhakaani having anything against it. I see... So,they simply didn't practice it then? I was only searching for the reason that the practice of the arcane arts by the goblinoids is so recent, as the Heirs of Dakhaan dragonshard states. Recently, a few goblins have explored the modern arts of arcane magic and artifice, especially among the Kech Volaar clan (see page 154 of the Eberron Campaign Setting). These goblin wizards and artificers are slowly winning respect among the clans and becoming an important part of the culture. So... if not prejudice, then what was the reason?
goblin_pride 11-11-06, 10:30 AM	I see... So,they simply didn't practice it then? I was only searching for the reason that the practice of the arcane arts by the goblinoids is so recent, as the Heirs of Dakhaan dragonshard states. So... if not prejudice, then what was the reason? No overt prejudices, just no knowledge that it even existed except in the far-flung corners, places like the Valenar front or the explorer's camps on the shores of Xen-drik. Without a native magical tradition, the arcane arts would have to come from outside the empire and work their way in. And you have to remember, the empire lasted 11,000 years and the downfall lasted 4-5,000 years, goblinoid society began organizing itself into the kingdoms that would eventually become the building blocks of the empire some 39,000 years ago so recent is a relative term. Think of it in modern terms, we know that fusing atoms is a far richer supply of energy than the splitting that we use now. Knowing what is better and actually being able to do it are worlds apart. They may have learned of the arcane arts in the earliest part of their history, utilizing them took a bit longer. As with all other things, the Dhakaani adapted or absorbed what they needed of it into their own cultures. I do see them having at least a limited use of them in the Daelkyr war. Battlefield magic would still be rare and extremely protected, but it would be an adaptation of the scholarly arcanists to a battlefield use.
Siran Dunmorgan 11-11-06, 12:11 PM	That's the advantage of a patchwork empire, they wouldn't have a unified opinion on it. As far as wizardry goes, I can't really see the Dhakaani having anything against it.The Dhakaani didn't seem to have had anything against the practice of magic generally: they didn't have clerics or adepts because they didn't want a sense of dependency on the gods, not because they felt there was anything particularly wrong with divine magic. And they've had arcane spellcasters for as long as anyone can remember. From a Dhakaani perspective, a sorcerer is simply an incompetent bard. By which I mean "a bard that can't sing and doesn't actually know anything." There's no tradition of wizardry because bards fulfilled all of their arcane magical needs. It's not forbidden for a bard to take item creation feats, after all, and intelligent use of bards on the battlefield, at the negotiating table, or at court can make up for rather a lot of wizardry. It's not flashy magic, but it's effective, and from a Dhakaani perspective, that's what counts. A bard might not be able to cast meteor swarm, but a bard can make a horn of blasting that can be used repeatedly by non-bards. —Siran Dunmorgan
goblin_pride 11-11-06, 04:19 PM	The Dhakaani didn't seem to have had anything against the practice of magic generally: they didn't have clerics or adepts because they didn't want a sense of dependency on the gods, not because they felt there was anything particularly wrong with divine magic. I have been killing myself trying to think of a way to create an agnostic empire. The only thing I can think of is that the Dhakaani empire itself didn't have gods but it didn't interfere with the practices of those in it's client states and provinces. What that means is that the accepted that their subjects had gods they worshipped but the Dhakaani clan didn't force any gods on it's people. Part of the reason this is such a problem is the canonical reference to the 16 Dhakaani gods. The way I get around this is that without concrete proof of a god's existance, the Empire wouldn't acknowledge that god as an Imperial god and the lawmakers made sure no god would become an imperial god without that god walking into the Grand Council chambers personally. Since none ever took that step to prove their existance, the state and church stayed happily in their own corners.
goblin_pride 11-11-06, 04:22 PM	And they've had arcane spellcasters for as long as anyone can remember. From a Dhakaani perspective, a sorcerer is simply an incompetent bard. By which I mean "a bard that can't sing and doesn't actually know anything." It took me about 10 minutes to stop laughing after I read this. It sums up exactly what I was thinking too. Just don't tell the sorcerers, they get a bit touchy when you call them a useless bard.
Siran Dunmorgan 11-11-06, 08:08 PM	I have been killing myself trying to think of a way to create an agnostic empire. The only thing I can think of is that the Dhakaani empire itself didn't have gods but it didn't interfere with the practices of those in it's client states and provinces. What that means is that the accepted that their subjects had gods they worshipped but the Dhakaani clan didn't force any gods on it's people. Part of the reason this is such a problem is the canonical reference to the 16 Dhakaani gods. The way I get around this is that without concrete proof of a god's existance, the Empire wouldn't acknowledge that god as an Imperial god and the lawmakers made sure no god would become an imperial god without that god walking into the Grand Council chambers personally. Since none ever took that step to prove their existance, the state and church stayed happily in their own corners.My understanding is that the sixteen gods known to the Dhakaani are simply the Sovereign Host, the Dark Six, and one other, called "the Overthrown;" these are not uniquely Dhakaani gods. Further, no reasonably well-educated and rational citizen of the Empire is likely to deny—or even question—that the gods exist. Asked about their belief or faith in the gods, the Dhakaani goblin-on-the-street would respond with something along the lines of "Aye, the gods. What of them? I leave them be, and expect them to return the favor." My opinion is that there were clerics and adepts among the Dhakaani: it's just that they were viewed with some suspicion, as if there were something not quite right with them. A modern analogy might be someone who otherwise seems stable and is good at their job, but talks incessantly about how good a psychotherapist they have: one wonders what hidden psychological issues they have that they need a therapist. It would seem odd to the above-referenced goblin-on-the-street that someone would see a need to pray or invoke the gods, as if the cleric or adept did not have the strength of character or self-confidence to succeed or fail on their own merits. The basis for the people's spirituality, and the basis for Imperial ceremonies, seems from what I have seen in the Eberron Campaign Setting and the writings of Hellcow here on these boards to be respect for the great ones who have gone before. Not emulation, as the Tairnadal have it, but simple respect: we remember those who have gone before us, and we take what they have done as our inspiration. We recite the roll of heroes, and work toward that day when the the bards add our names to that list, that we too may be remembered. There is a famous speech that expresses what I think of as Dhakaani-style spirituality: it's quite short, and I quote it here in its entirety:Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this. But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth. With the exception of the phrase "under God"—which for our purposes may be excised—this passage derives its spirituality and authority from the people themselves: from those fore-fathers who founded the nation, to those warriors who fought and died for its freedom, and the living who are dedicated to its perpetuation. It is this sense of dedication to the Empire, and faith in the people of the Empire, that characterizes the spirituality of the Dhakaani. They do not personify this as a god, as the Romans did in the years of their decadence, but it remains an ideal kept alive by those who remember, and tell the stories of the Empire's founding, its greatness and its fall: those who chant the lists of the fallen, and of the deeds to which they dedicated their lives. —Siran Dunmorgan
MetaEidolon 11-11-06, 11:08 PM	And they've had arcane spellcasters for as long as anyone can remember. From a Dhakaani perspective, a sorcerer is simply an incompetent bard. By which I mean "a bard that can't sing and doesn't actually know anything." There's no tradition of wizardry because bards fulfilled all of their arcane magical needs. It's not forbidden for a bard to take item creation feats, after all, and intelligent use of bards on the battlefield, at the negotiating table, or at court can make up for rather a lot of wizardry. It's not flashy magic, but it's effective, and from a Dhakaani perspective, that's what counts. A bard might not be able to cast meteor swarm, but a bard can make a horn of blasting that can be used repeatedly by non-bards. I would think that artificers would also be valued. For such a martial people, especially in the times of the daelkyr conflicts, enchanted arms and armor would be common for officers and nobles, if not mass produced for the armies.
lordalm 11-12-06, 01:17 PM	My understanding is that Darguun is a kind of gathering point for the goblinoids, someplace where they've been out in the open for a long time. Over the rest of Khorvaire, the Dhakaani have been (and largely continue to be) in hiding. Um, I was under the impression that the was one area of Khorvair that Galifar's reach didn't quite get so they were able to continue there. In the text pertaing to the warrior king guy that Karranth is named for, he spent some quality time using the remaining hobogoblins and goblins as his own personnel whipping boys so as to get as many human settlements under his control before trying to take over the humans who didn't join him agains the hobs and gobs. This is why they were either part of the existing human cities, ala Sharn and the goblins there and that place was actully taken over by a Lahzar pirate of some renown as I recall...
lordalm 11-12-06, 01:24 PM	My thinking on the clans and tribes of the goblinoids: The goblinoid clans are numerous, it's not a matter of a couple, I'm talking about hundreds if not thousands. All of these clans have a base identity that relates to others around them, but there's usually some major difference that seperates a given clan. Some might be offshoots from a larger clan that got too large for it's territory to support it or perhaps the offspring of a great hero within the clan simply drifted off to form a new clan over hundreds of years. Tribes among the goblinoids are a collection of somewhat related clans bound together under the leadership of a single clan. The original Tribe structure would've included the right of any clan leader to counsel the tribe's leader. As a unified political body, the tribe would be able to use more resources because it would have the resources of all it's member clans to draw from. The empire originally started when a collection of Tribal leaders decided that the tribes could do more if they allied themselves with other tribes. When it was decided the Dhakaan clan of the Dhakaan tribe would lead this alliance of unified tribes and clans, the Dhakaani empire was born. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally in the empire it was decided that every clan would have the right to counsel the leader of all the clans. At first this was a fairly simple affair because there weren't that many. As more tribes flocked to the Dhakaani banner the number of clans in the empire grew and problems began to develop. The solution came in the form of a grand council, where any clan's leader could speak and have his problems addressed by the emperor. Over time, the grand council became more important in the running of the empire, passing laws and appointing governors for the Imperial territories. While all clan leaders were members of the grand council, attendance wasn't mandatory unless ordered by the emperor to renew the oaths of fealty to the empire. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- That's the unpolished version, hopefully it made some kind of sense. Kinda have to go back the 6 kings thing here. I can see at a more base level the above kinda of happening, leading up to the formation of the first Hobgoblin Kingdoms (please note capitals). Being organized and militaristic, and the kinda of universally accepted gobloniod might makes right rule. They preceded to whack away at each other and the other gobolnoids until the events outlined with the 6 Kings and the formation of the Empire. The source material all kinda point to that being the pivatol point of the formation of the empire. And it very fantasy that way too....
lordalm 11-12-06, 01:36 PM	I am reminded of the societal structure in Janny Wurts' Daughter of Empire Series, based on R. Feist's Riftwar. In that society, houses were tied to clans by bloodlines and ancient allegiances, clans in turn, were allied (often temporarily) to political parties. Actually, IMC, this structure has been highly influential in my vision of Ancient Reidra. I do not have the proper texts on hand, but it seems to me that is would be possible for Sarlona of old and Dhakaani, to share common influence or even possible for Sarlona to have been modeled on the structure of the Dhakaani. Does anyone know if the histories of the two civilizations could have intersected, early enough to create such a connection? Sorry for the tangent. Humans didn't discover Khorvaire until about 3000 years ago if memory serves. So the Empire would have been gone, what 6000 years by then? Of course there is no mention on how good of seafarers the goblonoids were. I think it is mentioned that Sarlona does have scattered goblonoid tribes (the Inspired and the Reiderans pretty spent much of thier kingdom building killing everything they didn't turn in too breeding stock for the Inspired or wasn't human).
lordalm 11-12-06, 01:41 PM	Here comes a question: what was the position of the Dhakaani towards sorcery? I understand that wizardry was not practiced in the empire, but the occasional innate spellcaster is another matter. Personally, I suppose that at least for the largest part of the empire's duration they would be treated as the aberrant dragonmarked are by the modern Khorvairian society- too powerful, too dangerous, their powers probably having a dark and/ or unstable source. After all, the ability to cast a fireball was a trademark of forces opposed to the empire, like the fiends and, later, the Tairnadal, or at least meddling and alien( a.k.a. the dragons). The fact that certain goblinoids turned to the Lords of Dust in their search fot he forbidden lore of wizardry certainly didn't benefit the sorcerers' position. Of course, there had been more enlightened periods where sorcery was seen as a useful asset of the empire. But these were not the norm. Thus, the avereage Dhakaani sorceror would try to deny or at least hide her talents-becoming a hermit was a common choice...as was the path of the outlaw. I admit I haven't given much thought to the subject- definitely unpolished... By the way, the idea that the Dhakaani favouring the theory of evolution was really good...although I would choose the Aereni necromancers, as depicted in the Elves of Aerenal, part 2 dragonshard as those who originally came up with it. From what I have seen written in articles on the website, sorcery isn't an option for goblonoid kind. It was limited to those with draconic blood and apparently that means, humans, elves (and the half elf/human stock out there as well) and kobolds. Warlocks, however, being seen as deriving from demon bloodlines would certainly be possible. The goblonoids had straight up wizards and artificiers though from everything I have read. Just not huge numbers like there exist in Khorvaire today. I am including the magewrights in that tally as well.
lordalm 11-12-06, 01:57 PM	I see... So,they simply didn't practice it then? I was only searching for the reason that the practice of the arcane arts by the goblinoids is so recent, as the Heirs of Dakhaan dragonshard states. So... if not prejudice, then what was the reason? Lost knowledge. They would have had to have some magic to work against the Dhalyker. Beshek forged weapons only go so far when facing mindflayers and beholders.....
lordalm 11-12-06, 01:59 PM	The Dhakaani didn't seem to have had anything against the practice of magic generally: they didn't have clerics or adepts because they didn't want a sense of dependency on the gods, not because they felt there was anything particularly wrong with divine magic. And they've had arcane spellcasters for as long as anyone can remember. From a Dhakaani perspective, a sorcerer is simply an incompetent bard. By which I mean "a bard that can't sing and doesn't actually know anything." There's no tradition of wizardry because bards fulfilled all of their arcane magical needs. It's not forbidden for a bard to take item creation feats, after all, and intelligent use of bards on the battlefield, at the negotiating table, or at court can make up for rather a lot of wizardry. It's not flashy magic, but it's effective, and from a Dhakaani perspective, that's what counts. A bard might not be able to cast meteor swarm, but a bard can make a horn of blasting that can be used repeatedly by non-bards. —Siran Dunmorgan I do keep forgetting the bards....
lordalm 11-12-06, 02:02 PM	I have been killing myself trying to think of a way to create an agnostic empire. The only thing I can think of is that the Dhakaani empire itself didn't have gods but it didn't interfere with the practices of those in it's client states and provinces. What that means is that the accepted that their subjects had gods they worshipped but the Dhakaani clan didn't force any gods on it's people. Part of the reason this is such a problem is the canonical reference to the 16 Dhakaani gods. The way I get around this is that without concrete proof of a god's existance, the Empire wouldn't acknowledge that god as an Imperial god and the lawmakers made sure no god would become an imperial god without that god walking into the Grand Council chambers personally. Since none ever took that step to prove their existance, the state and church stayed happily in their own corners. I am thinking that the worship of the host wasn't always on khorvaire. That it was an import from sarlona along with the humans. Since the Faiths states that they belived initially before the shiscm, in "9 and 6 and 1" which adds up to 16 in my book. So the goblonoids when the "missionaries" swung back through a few centries later were found practicing the old ways.....
Siran Dunmorgan 11-12-06, 03:12 PM	From what I have seen written in articles on the website, sorcery isn't an option for goblonoid kind. It was limited to those with draconic blood and apparently that means, humans, elves (and the half elf/human stock out there as well) and kobolds. Warlocks, however, being seen as deriving from demon bloodlines would certainly be possible. The goblonoids had straight up wizards and artificiers though from everything I have read. Just not huge numbers like there exist in Khorvaire today. I am including the magewrights in that tally as well.Sorcery is an option for everyone, on Eberron. Re-read the section on sorcerors in the Eberron Campaign Setting. In Eberron, the notion of descent from dragons is assumed to be metaphorical rather than literal. Even were that not the case, bards qualify for the same "descended from dragons" Prestige Classes and feats as do Sorcerors, since they are also by most of the core rules assumed to be descended from dragons—and bards already have a well-established place in Dhakaani society. It's true that warlocks can appear among goblinoids; I'll return to the possibilities of this theme in a few moments, but allow me to say a few words about warlocks in Eberron in general. Early on, Hellcow commented that his campaign employs warlocks as the primary arcanists of the Cults of the Dragon Below, with particular emphasis on their relationship to the daelkyr, rather than their relationship to the native fiends. Based on this, it is not unlikely that a warlock in Dhakaani society would be regarded with suspiction at best, and allies of the daelkyr at worst. That said, it is almost a given that the fiends were involved in the development of all of the common native races of Khorvaire: goblinoids, orcs, gnomes, lizardfolk, and halflings. The fiends dominated the continent for literally millions of years; the ancestors of the modern races were almost certainly their servants, toys, or prey. With a few hundred millenia of free time, a bored rakshasa could easily embark on a breeding program that could produce any of the native races of Khorvaire from some otherwise unrecognizable ancestral stock. It's possible that this fiendish involvement could result in warlocks appearing in modern stocks of goblinoids, but this tendency seems to have been bred out of the race in modern times. As an aside, it's also interesting that none of the publically-available material about the native races of Khorvaire describes their state under the reign of the fiends: one would think that there would at least be some sort of stories about the wars that literally ripped Khorvaire apart.[1] It is almost as if some one or some thing went through Khorvaire after the war and eliminated all memories of the Age of Demons from the races then inhabiting the continent… —Siran Dunmorgan [1] Let's see a show of hands from those of you who thought Scions' Sound formed naturally.
Siran Dunmorgan 11-12-06, 03:18 PM	I am thinking that the worship of the host wasn't always on khorvaire. That it was an import from sarlona along with the humans. Since the Faiths states that they belived initially before the shiscm, in "9 and 6 and 1" which adds up to 16 in my book. So the goblonoids when the "missionaries" swung back through a few centries later were found practicing the old ways.....Worship of the Host has always been everywhere on Eberron and on the other Planes; it's not a human conceit. The giants of antique Xen'drik worshipped the Host, as did the dwarves of the Frostfell. Even the archons of Shavarath offer their service to Dol Arrah—and they've certainly never been affected by a human migration. The old gods of the Dhakaani are the Sovereign Host and its related gods. —Siran Dunmorgan
lordalm 11-12-06, 03:35 PM	Worship of the Host has always been everywhere on Eberron and on the other Planes; it's not a human conceit. The giants of antique Xen'drik worshipped the Host, as did the dwarves of the Frostfell. Even the archons of Shavarath offer their service to Dol Arrah—and they've certainly never been affected by a human migration. The old gods of the Dhakaani are the Sovereign Host and its related gods. —Siran Dunmorgan Okay. I had forgotten about the giants. And the dragons too for that matter. It just seemed to nicely explain why no clerical worshipping of gods prior to the fall of the empire by the goblonoids.
goblin_pride 11-12-06, 09:11 PM	Okay. I had forgotten about the giants. And the dragons too for that matter. It just seemed to nicely explain why no clerical worshipping of gods prior to the fall of the empire by the goblonoids. The canon says that the empire was agnostic, nowhere does it say that there weren't clerics. A clan or a tribe's worship of a given god didn't affect the empire as a whole. It still comes down to an agnostic empire and a religious population.
eehamburg 11-13-06, 09:55 AM	The canon says that the empire was agnostic, nowhere does it say that there weren't clerics. A clan or a tribe's worship of a given god didn't affect the empire as a whole. It still comes down to an agnostic empire and a religious population. Two questions ... How do you have a religious population within an agnostic empire? And if it was agnostic, how do you have clerics?
goblin_pride 11-13-06, 10:47 AM	Two questions ... How do you have a religious population within an agnostic empire? And if it was agnostic, how do you have clerics? Quite simple, really, the government was law, it wasn't concerned with the spirituality of the people at all. The government's primary concern was that the people's taxes were paid and that they weren't in revolt. The people could therefore be as faithful, agnostic or atheist as they choose because the government wouldn't impose on them. As long as their taxes, the taxes for their religious leaders, the taxes for their village and the taxes for their province were paid, they would've been free to worship anything they wanted. The clerics would've been nothing more than citizens within the empire. Their taxes would have been paid based on the land their temples occupied and if the community couldn't support them, the crown would repossess the land and tear down the structure or use it for another purpose. This would be the reason that temples aren't the most common structure among Dhakaani ruins, some communities would've simply decided that the cost of a temple was too much to bear.
lordalm 11-13-06, 11:00 AM	Two questions ... How do you have a religious population within an agnostic empire? And if it was agnostic, how do you have clerics? Ya, it seemed pretty clear in the material that the Dhakaani just didn't have clerics or even lowly priests. Dirge Singers occupied that slot in thier society.
goblin_pride 11-13-06, 11:20 AM	Ya, it seemed pretty clear in the material that the Dhakaani just didn't have clerics or even lowly priests. Dirge Singers occupied that slot in thier society. And yet they still had 16 gods? One or the other has to go.
goblin_pride 11-13-06, 11:34 AM	Two questions ... How do you have a religious population within an agnostic empire? And if it was agnostic, how do you have clerics? I forgot completely about the orc client states when I was responding to this. The orcs during the empire period were mostly druidic so there's another source of divine magic without even mentioning clerics. Individual clerics wouldn't make much of an impact in the empire as a whole, it's the church hierarchies that the Dhakaani lacked. Without massive church hierarchies you don't see huge temples being erected or religious leaders being consulted by government officials. Also you don't see clerics accompanying the army in a specialized role. Any clerics in the armies of the Dhakaani would be scattered among the troops by happenstance rather than organized based on their healing abilities. By the patchwork empire model, some provinces would have very religious populations along with the temples, hierarchies and all that goes along with it. But those institutions stuck in that one province wouldn't make the empire itself religious, merely that small portion. I can see missionaries and mystics all over the empire, just none of them being recognized by the empire.
lordalm 11-13-06, 11:40 AM	And yet they still had 16 gods? One or the other has to go. 16 Gods came after the collapse of Dhakaani and the expansion of the human kingdoms. That is why I put forth that it was an import by the Sarlonians. Of course the giant left overs (mostly in Droam these days according to the material), Kobolds, heck even some dragon could have gotten them interested in the gods. Or maybe they did it all spontaneous like. I mean the worship of the gods would have had to been inspired pretty much as it is in the real world. In the fantasy setting you just get guys that have glowing hands that heal you in more plentiful numbers and in every generation.
eehamburg 11-13-06, 12:09 PM	OK ... so I can buy your explanation ... sort of ... because after all ... supposedly ... that's how the US is set up ... at least in theory. It just seems like advanced thinking for a society as old as they are supposed to be.
goblin_pride 11-13-06, 12:19 PM	It just seems like advanced thinking for a society as old as they are supposed to be. Advanced thinking? I would think that "you do it your way, I'll do it mine" is pretty basic. It's the "just pay your taxes" bit that I would think would be the sticking point. I was thinking about this, as long as a province or region paid their proper due to the empire, they could be in a state of perpetual civil war and the empire wouldn't really care. The local government and the rebellious leaders would both be in serious trouble if the Empire didn't get their due, however.
eehamburg 11-13-06, 12:38 PM	Advanced thinking? I would think that "you do it your way, I'll do it mine" is pretty basic. It's the "just pay your taxes" bit that I would think would be the sticking point. You call it pretty basic but look at the history of our own world. That pretty basic concept took how many years before it was actually done? If you can think of an earlier example, please give it.
lordalm 11-13-06, 02:13 PM	You call it pretty basic but look at the history of our own world. That pretty basic concept took how many years before it was actually done? If you can think of an earlier example, please give it. I have to agree. That live and let live attitude is kinda hard to come by. Even in this enlightened age. Just look at the middle east.
Darth Syntax 11-13-06, 03:30 PM	Concerning the 16 gods: We have only a single reference to this and it is entirely possible that these gods were worshiped before the empire was formed, after it fell, or during the empire but in a fashion that we would not recognize as active religion. Additionally, the scholars in the modern age may believe the Dhakaani had gods due to the existence of some texts which may or may not (and I am inclined towards the negative) been representative of their beliefs. Perhaps the modern scholars have the Dhakaani equivalent of The Odyssey which was known in the empire to be one of the greatest stories, but no one believed that the events really happened. The old gods could have been used as metaphoric figures for story telling rather than as objects of any kind of devotion. After all, it's quite clear that the gods don't do anything, so why bother worshiping them? On Agnosticism, clerics, and other various and sundry things: My own opinion is that the majority of the Imperial population was agnostic, and as I have said before, ignostic (meaning that they don't care about whether or not the gods exist as it is not relevant to their lives). The whole ethical construct of the empire was based on acting in accordance with wisdom, reason, and universal law, there simply is no need for gods in such a scheme; thus the Dhakaani made no assumptions concerning the gods. Agnosticism, remember, is a statement about knowledge, not about belief or ethics. The Dhakaani merely stated that they have no knowledge concerning the gods and built an ethical philosophy that incorporated this view. Initially, this agnosticism lead to me to the common conclusion of a cleric-less state. On some levels I still agree with this, most of the 'spiritual' needs of the people were tended to by art (bards, music, opera, that sort of thing) and a strong sense of civic virtue and justice, so clerics-as-priests are right out. However, divine casters need not have deities, or ever religions in the common sense, one can have 'clerics' of philosophies. Now the wheels begin to turn. If there were clerics in the empire, they would have been sages, philosophers, ideologues, and the like, not priests. Think Socrates, Xeno, Confucius, Dogen, Peter Abelard, Plato, hell, think Machiavelli, not the knights templar or the classic village priest. I would probably use a kind of cloistered cleric to represent the philosopher and remove the spontaneous healing and go with spontaneous domain spells (which is how I have been treating all clerics for some time now anyway). -- On the so called 'advanced' nature of an Agnostic system We have to remember that the Dhakaani were around for thousands of years as a powerful and advanced state. And whether that time is 3500 years, or 11,000 years there is plenty of time for cultural development and evolution. As long as the people paid their taxes, followed the laws, and put their loyalty in the State, then all was good. Social pressures would have been great for those living on the fringe of Imperial power (such as the proxy-state of Kesh which I dreamed up and which occupied most of what is now Droaam and the western Shadow Marches) to abandon overt belief in their gods if it impinged on their loyalty to the Law and to the Empire.
lordalm 11-13-06, 03:37 PM	Some food for thought on that one. I am still leaning towards a general ignorance with the importing later idea. Kinda fits with how things worked in the real world with Christianity and the other religions.
eehamburg 11-13-06, 03:42 PM	On the so called 'advanced' nature of an Agnostic system We have to remember that the Dhakaani were around for thousands of years as a powerful and advanced state. And whether that time is 3500 years, or 11,000 years there is plenty of time for cultural development and evolution. As long as the people paid their taxes, followed the laws, and put their loyalty in the State, then all was good. Social pressures would have been great for those living on the fringe of Imperial power (such as the proxy-state of Kesh which I dreamed up and which occupied most of what is now Droaam and the western Shadow Marches) to abandon overt belief in their gods if it impinged on their loyalty to the Law and to the Empire. All of that may be so ... but compare to our world ... the idea of an agnostic nation is a fairly recent invention. So the fact that they had one for so long or as long ago as they did is an interesting statement and speaks volumes about their culture and the level that it advanced to sociologically speaking. At least, that's my thought.
Siran Dunmorgan 11-13-06, 04:49 PM	And yet they still had 16 gods? One or the other has to go. No, actually, it doesn't. :) Religion in the Dhakaani Empire was a bit like psychotherapy today. Everyone knows that it exists, and no one doubts its effectiveness, but we tend to not quite trust people who need it, particularly if they are our political leaders. On the other hand, on a personal level, if someone is enraged at being on the losing end of a love triangle... they might pray to the Fury to become the instrument of vengeance. Someone appearing in court, for a case they feel is just, but that they are afraid of losing might appeal to Aureon. If their case is unjust, but they want to win anyway, they might offer sacrifice to Kol Korran or the Keeper, or even the Shadow. A goblin seeking power over his fellows might secretly become a necromancer, possibly an adept in the service of the Keeper. The important thing to remember is that it was not institutionalized: the Emperor offers service to no gods, nor is the Empire dedicated to any religion or deity. Most officers of the Empire regard religion as something that, at best, is useful for keeping a sheep-like population sheep-like. There are no grand temples, and priests, while they are not actively shunned, are generally regarded much the the same way that we might regard someone who talks incessantly about what a good therapist they have. It's not illegal; it's not even actively discouraged, but it's also not quite socially ideal, either. A population, e.g. a town or tribe, won over to the practice of religion (by a charismatic cleric of Aureon, say) would be of concern to the Empire only in the sense that people from that area would be regarded as "weak," or "mouse-like," and people of that tribe might find themselves passed over for promotions in the army, discouraged from Imperial office, and unable to secure brides or husbands from outside the tribe. Again, it's not something organized: no one is going to attack them, or burn down their villages. Just... no one's going to have much to do with them if there are alternatives. —Siran Dunmorgan P.S. As an aside, it doesn't take an advanced society to ask "Why are you asking Dol Arrah to strengthen your arm when you could be out on the practice field doing it yourself?" "Why are you asking Kol Korran to grant you wealth, if you can work for it yourself?" or even "Why are you asking the Fury to grant you vengeance, instead of wrapping your own chain around your enemy's throat yourself?" It doesn't take an advanced society to declare "Gods are for the weak!"
eehamburg 11-13-06, 05:03 PM	It doesn't take an advanced society to declare "Gods are for the weak!" No ... that is true .. but it does take an advanced society to say you don't need religion ... again ... look at our world for examples.
Siran Dunmorgan 11-13-06, 05:44 PM	No ... that is true .. but it does take an advanced society to say you don't need religion ... again ... look at our world for examples.Not if you already have the societal role of religion filled by something else. Our world developed differently specifically because we came forth from that haunted darkness of pre-history trying to project human-like, or at least volitional, characteristics onto objects and events in the world around us. The goblinoids labored under no such apprehension. Like all of Eberron, they were and are aware of the reality of the gods (or at least of divine magic), and chose at some point in their history to rely on themselves, rather than cower before the gods as humans are wont to do. This is one of the things that characterizes them as non-human[1]. Thus, the pomp and circumstance, the watching over births and deaths, over comings of age and marriages, recognition of the time for planting and of harvest, of the waning and waxing of the year, are all things that are handled in the context of Dhakaani society by their bards and loremasters. The bard with the trumpet playing the Song of the Dawn at sunrise on the Vernal Equinoxe is fulfilling the same societal role as the priest offering sacrifices of gold and ivory to Dol Arrah—but without reference to the goddess herself, only to the dawn as the dawn, and to the people's acknowledgement of it. The Empire did not lack for ceremony, nor for spirituality. But neither of these things made reference to the gods, nor to any force or will greater than that of the combined and well-understood efforts of the goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears who comprised the citizenry of the Empire. —Siran Dunmorgan [1] They aren't human, you know: they're goblinoids. That pretty much sets them off of the real-world historical track.
Darth Syntax 11-13-06, 10:48 PM	Well said, well said *raises his ubiquitous cup of tea to that*
eehamburg 11-14-06, 09:09 AM	I am not doubting any of what any of you are saying ... my point is that WE are human and as such, we try to put things into context that WE can understand. This includes foreign and alien mindsets ... so explain the mindset that developed and the fact that they were easily able to replace one type of thinking with another and thus developed differently to the point where a more quote unquote democratic line of thinking was the norm.
Siran Dunmorgan 11-14-06, 10:53 AM	I am not doubting any of what any of you are saying ... my point is that WE are human and as such, we try to put things into context that WE can understand. This includes foreign and alien mindsets ... so explain the mindset that developed and the fact that they were easily able to replace one type of thinking with another and thus developed differently to the point where a more quote unquote democratic line of thinking was the norm. There are two main points: first, the reality of divine magic. Second, the differing nature of goblinoids and humans as primary carnivores and primary herbivores. Given the reality of divine magic, it's possible to know the limits of the capabilities of the gods and their servants. It is possible, therefore, to make a reasonable and informed decision about whether to rely on yourself or on the gods. All that is required is that one examine the risks and benefits associated with each choice. This is not something that could have happened in terrestrial history, because we had no way of determining the limitations of the gods, and generally believed that it was impossible to escape their influence. I submit that, throughout history as far back as we have any records on the subject, individuals have predominantly chosen freedom over slavery, given the reasonable opportunity to do so.[1] On Eberron, it is possible to know that one can escape the gods. Now, goblinoids appear to be primarily carnivores, while humans are primarily herbivores.[2] As a consequence of this, they are, generally speaking, more agressive and tend to take greater initiative. They have more of a tendency—even more than humans—to see struggles for dominance as an issue in society. Social climbing is strongly encouraged. If someone thinks they can do a better job than whoever is currently in charge, they are encouraged to challenge for the position of leadership. I submit that this tendency exists naturally at all levels of goblinoid society, including the very top. It is not unlikely that some ancient tribal chieftain in the pre-Dhakaani era stood on a mountaintop and declared his challenge to Aureon, or the Devourer, or the Shadow, or whomever, for leadership "of the four quarters of the world." And nothing happened. He then went on to the next god. And the next. And still, nothing happened. When the roll-call of the gods was exhausted, the gods were then determined to have failed to appear for the challenge, and were, like all cowards, expelled from the tribe. No songs were sung of this occasion, because that would have been naming the cowards and immortalizing their cowardice. Note that this is distinctly not a democratic activity. —Siran Dunmorgan [1] Even the most ancient of Sumerian law-codes (pre-dating the Code of Hammurabi by many centuries) describes provisions for dealing with re-capture of escaped slaves, suggesting that slaves escaped or attempted to escape often enough for people to notice. [2] I know: strictly speaking, we're omnivores, but most of our consumption is of vegetable products. For contrast, bears are also omnivores, but most of their consumption is of meat products.
eehamburg 11-15-06, 02:58 PM	Second, the differing nature of goblinoids and humans as primary carnivores and primary herbivores. You do know that humans are omnivores and herbivores, right? And since you even acknowledge that, then you should know that for instance, I have a mix of vegetable and meat... not one over the other ... therefore, I would say that I was an omnivore and not a herbivore or even a carnivore. There is a bit of a distinction that is important to remember. My point here is that we have a lot more in common with the goblins than you give us credit for. You seem to forget just how bad, blood thirsty, ruthless, dominating, power engrossing humans can be.
Darth Syntax 11-15-06, 03:38 PM	On diet: Humans are preferential omnivores as we will eat animal-based foods (eggs, cheeses, milk, bone marrow, etc) at the drop of a hat. The only reason for the large-scale consumption of grain and other plants in sedentary societies is the fact that plants are much cheaper to raise and thus more widely available. If you look at cultures with a prototypical human life style (the hunter-gatherer sort) meat makes up a good portion of the diet, and vast amounts of energy is expended in its acquisition. Also, there is the example of the high-arctic peoples (Inuit, Yupik, etc) who have a diet that is almost entirely based on animal products. On to the goblinoids then. I have been treating them as omnivorous, but with a need to consume meats. A goblinoid vegetarian is going to get sick, no matter how healthy their individual plant-foods are. As a result, strict vegetarianism is unknown and unnatural to them. On the issue of agnosticism: I agree with Siran, I would just like to add one or two points for consideration. 1): Magic is natural in Eberron, and therefore would be treated differently, namely it would not be seen as supernatural (arguably nothing that exists can be supernatural but thats a whole new topic there). Thus, the appeal of 'magical' gods would probably be lessened. 2): The existence of 'divine casters' who deny the gods. It is perfectly permissible to have a divine caster who draws their power from an abstract philosophy, so the equation 'divine magic = gods', doesn't necessarily hold much water.
eehamburg 11-15-06, 03:56 PM	On diet: Humans are preferential omnivores as we will eat animal-based foods (eggs, cheeses, milk, bone marrow, etc) at the drop of a hat. The only reason for the large-scale consumption of grain and other plants in sedentary societies is the fact that plants are much cheaper to raise and thus more widely available. On this comment, I agree with you 100%
Siran Dunmorgan 11-15-06, 04:37 PM	You do know that humans are omnivores and herbivores, right? And since you even acknowledge that, then you should know that for instance, I have a mix of vegetable and meat... not one over the other ... therefore, I would say that I was an omnivore and not a herbivore or even a carnivore. There is a bit of a distinction that is important to remember. My point here is that we have a lot more in common with the goblins than you give us credit for. You seem to forget just how bad, blood thirsty, ruthless, dominating, power engrossing humans can be.Certainly: humans are omnivores. No question: it's difficult for humans to get proper nutrition consuming only meat or only vegetable products. That said, it is also extremely unusual for a human to be a perfect omnivore, wherein fifty percent of our dietary mass comes from animal products and fifty percent from vegetables. There are cultures within humanity that are primarily consumers of animal products (Inuit, for example), and a few cultures that almost completely exclude animal products from their diet (Jains, for example). However, humanity as a whole is omnivorous with a preference for vegetables, in about a 7:3 ratio, i.e. about 70% of the mass we as a species consume in our diet is of vegetable origin, and about 30% is animal, including dairy products. If we look only at non-meat vs. meat, the ratio is closer to 10:1. Note that the amount of meat in the human diet has increased in the historical time frame, with increased animal domestication. Now, that said, we as a species are not particulary prone to violence. I know that sounds odd, given that the events that stand out in history are particular eras of really insane hurt. But look at it as a whole. Our cities of the present day have literally millions of people living in them, the vast majority of whom have never and will never kill another human being, despite the social tension of city life. For the majority of history, most people on Earth have been farmers, who have not had an overwhelming tendency to slaughter one another: quite the contrary, the popular depiction of rural life tends to be of populations that support and protect their members. Yes, it's easy to find examples of murderers or thieves. But they are in the staggering minority compared with the population as a whole. On the other hand we suppose that these facts are different with respect to the goblinoids of Eberron. We suppose—and it is a supposition, at least on my part: I don't believe I've ever seen statistics on goblinoid diet—that they are omnivores with an emphasis on consuming meat products, similar to, for instance, bears in the real world. Furthermore, we have documentation to the effect that goblinoids tend not to get along with one another as well as do humans. We don't have a lot of documentation obviously (one of the goals of this thread is to produce that information), but what we do have suggests that struggles for dominance are the principal social interaction of individual goblinoids: by contrast, humans tend to be more accepting of a received social order, i.e., we tend to more readily accept our "place" in society, beneath the gods. Again, I don't doubt that exceptions can be found: but we can find them specifically because they are exceptions. In closing, I note that your request was for me to provide details about how the goblinoid mindset differs from human, with the goal of explaining how an Empire with no Imperial acknowledgement of the gods might have come to pass. I hope I've done that to your satisfaction: if not, let me know what objections you have remaining, and I'll do my best to respond to them. —Siran Dunmorgan
Archangel62 11-15-06, 04:49 PM	I'm apparently jumping into this at an odd point. My own commentary is that I would like to see more on Darguun. I'd like to see some books that give a better history and some ideas for adventuring there. I've done some stuff but it's nowhere near as fleshed out as many of the other areas are.
eehamburg 11-15-06, 05:18 PM	I'm apparently jumping into this at an odd point. My own commentary is that I would like to see more on Darguun. I'd like to see some books that give a better history and some ideas for adventuring there. I've done some stuff but it's nowhere near as fleshed out as many of the other areas are. Share whatever you got ... because while this isn't specifically Darguun ... i thas been a lot about the Dhakaani Empire...and the possible re-emergence of the Empire.... and Darguun does fall in that.
eehamburg 11-15-06, 05:23 PM	Just as there have been farmers, there have been hunter-gatherers. It goes hand-in-hand. I do not believe that the mix is 70:30. I think that it is closer to 50:50. My logic is because of dairy. How much dairy does the average person eat? quite a bit. Butter, Milk, Cheese. And then again, you got lunch meats. Cereal with Milk. And then dinners usually have some sort of meat in them whether it is cheese (pizza), chicken, or even good old fashion cow. So, I disagree with the comments made on this. Not totally disagree, but enough that there is a difference. Of course, don't take offense and swing a battle axe at me ;) as this is an open forum for discussion.
GhoulKing 11-15-06, 08:18 PM	Share whatever you got ... because while this isn't specifically Darguun ... i thas been a lot about the Dhakaani Empire...and the possible re-emergence of the Empire.... and Darguun does fall in that. Well, you'll see the birth of Darguun discussed in "Last War". But the Dhakaani Empire was 1000 years ago, it's not coming back. Actually, there was a Birthright kingdom of goblins with a boxed set, history, culture, all that. What the heck was it called?
goblin_pride 11-15-06, 11:28 PM	But the Dhakaani Empire was 1000 years ago, it's not coming back. I wouldn't go saying something like that on the streets of Volaar Draal.
Siran Dunmorgan 11-16-06, 01:04 AM	What do we know about goblinoid family life? For instance, when we're looking at a street in Rhukaan Draal, what do we see? Single family residences, where the family is defined as a male, female, and their direct offspring? Or do we have more of an extended family arrangement, where each townhouse, each block of flats, is occupied by an extended family with most areas held in common between several mated pairs (or multiples, if one supposes that the common folk of Darguun support polygamy or polyandry), and responsibility for the young held in common between all of the adults of the preceding generation? How is this different in rural areas? Most campaign settings portray goblins as tribal hunter/gatherers, and really don't address the question of how they arrange themselves in cities, or in their aspect as lords of several farmsteads, though what we have heard of the slave trade in Darguun allows us to infer that even goblins could be considered to be lords of their own villas, with an extended family of goblins and their allied pack of wargs using the villa as a headquarters, while the lands about are worked by slaves, whether human, Zil, iredar, or whatever. But I'm not sure that this interpretation is supported in other sources or literature. It's key to running adventures "in the field" in Darguun, so I imagine it's something we want to resolve as soon as feasible. —Siran Dunmorgan
eehamburg 11-16-06, 08:35 AM	Well, you'll see the birth of Darguun discussed in "Last War". But the Dhakaani Empire was 1000 years ago, it's not coming back. So does all of that mean that we can't discuss it here and come up with our own ideas and share them??? Are we supposed to stifle our creativity because of something that might come out?????? I wouldn't go saying something like that on the streets of Volaar Draal. I like this statement ... gives a sense of realism to it. :) What do we know about goblinoid family life? I see the goblinoid family depending on the goblinoid species... for instance ... I see the goblins as having whole generations living together as a big family commune so that it wouldn't be uncommon to see children, grandchildren, greatgrandchildren, parents, grandparents, and great grandparents all living together with uncles and aunts and cousins on all levels. I see bugbears as striving out on their own more so that the family nucleus would be smaller like only children and parents until the 'child' is of sufficient age then he/she strikes out to make their own life. I see hobgoblins being a little bit of both. Like having children and parents living together until marriage and then striving out on their own. This is, of course, my interpretation. Pick what you will.
goblin_pride 11-16-06, 01:04 PM	I see the goblins as having whole generations living together as a big family commune so that it wouldn't be uncommon to see children, grandchildren, greatgrandchildren, parents, grandparents, and great grandparents all living together with uncles and aunts and cousins on all levels. I'm not so sure commune is the right word. I did envision goblin ghettoes all over the empire, it's remnants and the cities of modern Khorvaire. With family and clan ties being very strong among the goblins it wouldn't be unusual to see all generations in a family line living in close proximity for both a sense of community and security. More on that later, I'm sure.
lordalm 11-16-06, 01:27 PM	However, humanity as a whole is omnivorous with a preference for vegetables, in about a 7:3 ratio, i.e. about 70% of the mass we as a species consume in our diet is of vegetable origin, and about 30% is animal, including dairy products. If we look only at non-meat vs. meat, the ratio is closer to 10:1. Hrmm, don't know where this guy has been eating but it isn't my house.....
eehamburg 11-16-06, 01:43 PM	I'm not so sure commune is the right word. I did envision goblin ghettoes all over the empire, it's remnants and the cities of modern Khorvaire. With family and clan ties being very strong among the goblins it wouldn't be unusual to see all generations in a family line living in close proximity for both a sense of community and security. More on that later, I'm sure. Well... you get what I am saying ... so if commune is not the right word, then what is?
eehamburg 11-16-06, 01:44 PM	Hrmm, don't know where this guy has been eating but it isn't my house..... That was my point that I was making because I don't think that those percentages are correct. I know that besides for pastas and bread, I eat more meat/dairy type things (chicken included) than veggies ... doctor always tells me to eat my veggies ...
lordalm 11-16-06, 01:47 PM	To get back to the gods question. I am going to throw out a monkey wrench in our thinking. In, I believe, the ECS the authors speak on the nature of the existing religions and the why of the SH far reach and success. It mentions converting the goblonoids of Darguun which we have already covered. However, the bit that we have been over looking is the conversion of the orcs from the worship of thier gods. Namely the slightly altered Gruumish. So, here we have a cannon god from outside of Eberron that couldn't manifest itself directly being worshipped by a race that most people who play this game as being a bunch of druids or cults below types. So maybe, just maybe, the 16 gods worshipped by the goblins where not the SH and company but something else. And maybe because they were always picking fights with each other they never rose to promenice in the Empire. And because they were all experts for the most part they had no real "power" to infulence people with. Was there adepts and full clerics? Yes, but like the current religions, faith and the faith to move mountains are two different things without proof for most people. And yes I am basing this out of human thought process.
eehamburg 11-16-06, 01:51 PM	To get back to the gods question. I am going to throw out a monkey wrench in our thinking.What can I say?? I'm speechless ... I just don' t know. WOW.
goblin_pride 11-16-06, 03:31 PM	To get back to the gods question. I am going to throw out a monkey wrench in our thinking. In, I believe, the ECS the authors speak on the nature of the existing religions and the why of the SH far reach and success. My thinking on the agnostic empire is based somewhat on this. In the early empire there was a tradition of adding the local cults and gods into the Imperial dynasty's pantheon. With the original gods there was power enough to support clerics, but with the inclusion of all the gods of the growing empire that power began to dilute. It was difficult for the clerics of the middle empire period to cast even the simplest of divine magic, so the government stopped relying on them altogether. The faiths based on natural forces, such as the druids, rangers and some of the rural Dhakaani agriculture and nature gods still gave power to their clerics because their focus wasn't on the deity itself to power their spells. Certain gods, those that seem to corespond directly to the sovereign host and the lost 16th also maintained alot of their power simply because they were common among multitudes of clans and tribes, but the empire had already come to the conclusion that the gods didn't have power any longer. If the Dhakaani had conglomerated the gods rather than taking whole pantheons into their religious practice, they might have been able to support the imperial cult as a unified pantheon, but it was the vastness of it that caused an erosion of the power of the gods. Some of the local priests were able to maintain their ties to the old gods of their villages and cities, but they were the exception rather than the rule. Viewed with suspicion for the power they were able to command, the mystics of faith in the late empire period would've been shunned for "communing with the unnatural". In the wild places on the edges of Dhakaani control, these mystics held the faith of the gods their people had always revered, outside the prying eyes of the citizens of the empire. After the fall of the empire, the old gods' mystics began to move freely within the cities and villages that once shunned them. Some were greeted with open arms for their ability to channel the will of their gods to benefit the people, others were chastised for not doing anything to help support the crumbling empire. The Gatekeeper sect specifically were openly attacked for not acting sooner to stop the Daelkyr. The rift between the goblinoids and the orcs dates from this dark period of the empire. Who knew "divide and conquer" worked on gods as well?
Thramzorean 11-16-06, 09:00 PM	For my Darkaani empire I have bardic lodges being the key unifying glue between the different tribes and races (though I also inlcude the idea of fixed castes as this also is a proven stable society over long periods). I use the different variants in unearthed arcana to fill niches that don't otherwise exist in a cleric-less society and provide loremasters and battlemasters. It is the bardic tradition, where the bards dipsense learning and information in a far more comprehensive manner than historical types, that unifies and allows an otherwise low technology diverse empire to grow and develop over such a large area. As a bard you are immediately detached and above your race or tribe. The bardic lodges are central libriaries of information and ideas that otherwise would be lost in a diaspora of low life span creatures. The concepts that unified the empire are maintained and taught by the bards and as the empire grew and prospered these became an immutable constitution for goblin society. Haven't quite decided yet if the bardic lodges were destroyed or perverted in the Daeklyr invasion but that would be one of the key reasons for the final break up of the empire - the bardic glue is lost, the empire separates into various region/racial unrestrained warlords and civil war. For x thousand years it only needed a bard to declare any warlord was acting against the principles of the empire to be immediately persona non grata, so civil war was limited. It is also a reason now why the recovery of any significant heirloom or otherwise can make the possibility of a restored Darkanni happen so quickly. The goblins will accept a 'real' representative of the empire because for thousands of years that was what they were taught to believe in if told so by somebody with the 'right' authority. And if somebody with the right authority declared an heir viable they would rally to cause without question. Anyhoo some rationales to build on...
eehamburg 11-17-06, 08:32 AM	that's pretty good ... I wonder how it could be integrated with what was said by everyone else? I think that all of the ideas combined would make a great empire.... worthy of praise.... maybe even a book deal... are you listening WotC???? Hire these guys.
Tzarevitch 11-17-06, 10:01 AM	that's pretty good ... I wonder how it could be integrated with what was said by everyone else? I think that all of the ideas combined would make a great empire.... worthy of praise.... maybe even a book deal... are you listening WotC???? Hire these guys. I agree. I must admit, I am pleased that my thread provoked such insightful discussion (and lasted way longer than I thought it would) :) But seriously, I had hoped that someone actually in the know (*cough* Keith Baker *cough*) would respond as to whether anything official and substantial would ever be published on this topic. Tzarevitch
eehamburg 11-17-06, 11:41 AM	I agree. I must admit, I am pleased that my thread provoked such insightful discussion (and lasted way longer than I thought it would) :) And it grows and grows and grows and gives many ideas. But seriously, I had hoped that someone actually in the know (*cough* Keith Baker *cough*) would respond as to whether anything official and substantial would ever be published on this topic.I don't think that he is legally allowed to say anything. While I think he might have seen this thread, I don't think he can comment too much on anything official.
goblin_pride 11-17-06, 11:50 AM	But seriously, I had hoped that someone actually in the know (*cough* Keith Baker *cough*) would respond as to whether anything official and substantial would ever be published on this topic. Hellcow has a disclaimer in his signature that says anything he says on the boards is just his opinion and is in no way an official WotC answer. However, a word of encouragement from his infernal bovine majesty would be more than welcome to all.
eehamburg 11-17-06, 11:55 AM	However, a word of encouragement from his infernal bovine majesty would be more than welcome to all. Maybe someone should send him an e-mail or IM to see if he has viewed this at all and ask what he thinks ... any takers?
goblin_pride 11-17-06, 01:14 PM	On goblin life in the empire: Goblins are unique among the Dhakaani races in that they can have as many as 6 generations alive at the same time. While such a prolific breeding rate makes one think there wouldn't be enough time to tend to the needs of each child individually the goblins developed a society in the empire in which each child would receive the appropriate amount of attention during it's upbringing. Goblin communities in larger cities consisted of walled-off sections of the city filled with goblin tenements. The favored style of building in the cities of the hobgoblins was to build upwards instead of outwards, so goblin neighborhoods would reach seven and eight stories high using simple timber construction and even higher using stone and brick. With the kitchens and dining areas closest to the ground floor, the elder members of a family or clan would mark their status based on how close to the bottom floors they were, with the youngest living in the top-most floors. Goblins tended to make the best possible use of space within the areas they controlled in the cities of the old empire. In a goblin enclave, it wasn't unusual to see the rooftops of all their buildings growing lush and green with rooftop gardens. In Dhakaan Draal one clan's holdings grew so large over time, it was said they had an orchard on the rooves of their compound that supplied all the capitol's apples. Rural goblins, on the other hand spread out their buildings in order to give themselves the added defense that open lanes and walled compounds gave them. Individual houses among the rural goblins was common, any that reached breeding age would simply begin construction of their own housing, usually assisted by one of the clan's many grandfathers. Defensive walls were extremely common among the goblins in the empire. Among the city-dwelling goblins, whole neighborhoods would be walled in so that other clans knew that "these neighborhoods are ours". To further the sense of identity, clans would paint the walls in bright vibrant colors in order to show their individuality. In the cities, a defensive wall would be 3-4 stories (15-20 ft) high, and wide enough for two goblins to stand abreast atop it. As the buildings inside the outer wall grew to that height, connecting walkways would be built to access the walltops so that more goblins could be rushed to the defense if needed. Over time, the tenements of the goblins would spill over and the connecting walkways would become the floors of additional rooms making goblin neighborhoods look like one giant building with no windows on the first 3-4 floors. The houses of the rural goblins were built with scattered defensive (walled) houses among them. The defensive houses were the houses of the warriors of a clan and meant to be able to be held by that goblin, his wife, children and whatever farmers he could get inside before he barred the gates. The walls weren't meant to stop an invader, merely to slow them down, the real defense they provided was the towers built on the corners from which a goblin could rain arrows down into the lanes between the houses in any direction. Since the towers were taller than the surrounding houses, enemy locations could be easily seen. One out of five houses were defensive in the empire according to the official Dhakaani reports to the emperor, but one out of ten was wasn't uncommon. Smaller villages with less possible outside threat weren't as well defended, and the largest villages eventually walled in along an outer perimeter so the need for defenses inside was lessened. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Once the title Grandfather or Grandmother was ahceived in a goblin's life that's what they were, the system of adding "great" in the human custom would seem silly to goblins unless that Grandparent truly deserved to be called great. As a grandparent, their role in the society altered slightly, they became more involved in the running of the clan and the rearing of the clan's numerous offspring. In this way, the children of the clan or family learned from all the elders rather than just learning from their biological parents. In a society were your biological grandparents held no more importance than any other grandparent, a goblin would learn that it isn't the individual that matters it's the family and clan that does. While a goblin might know which ones were his parents' fathers and mothers, it wouldn't matter, through it's upbringing by all the grandparents of the clan they would feel a strong urge to protect, defend and feed all of them. While the individual would hold some measure of importance, Dhakaani goblins would know that if the clan's grandparents died the clan would die. Because the elders did the teaching among the Dhakaani goblin clans, the level of teaching was greatly improved compared to the modern goblins. While a Dhakaani might have the experiences of multiple generations taught to him, a modern goblin is lucky to have even the basics of any skills taught to him. Because of this the goblins of the Dhakaani empire could easily farm fields and support huge numbers of people while a modern goblin would barely be able to support himself through his efforts. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is specific to goblins only, Hobgoblins and bugbears are still to come.
goblin_pride 11-17-06, 01:16 PM	Maybe someone should send him an e-mail or IM to see if he has viewed this at all and ask what he thinks ... any takers? I nominate Mr Eehamburg for the task. Anyone second?
eehamburg 11-17-06, 01:40 PM	I nominate Mr Eehamburg for the task. Anyone second? Done. I sent him a private message asking him to take a look for you guys. Eric
goblin_pride 11-17-06, 02:03 PM	Or do we have more of an extended family arrangement, where each townhouse, each block of flats, is occupied by an extended family with most areas held in common between several mated pairs (or multiples, if one supposes that the common folk of Darguun support polygamy or polyandry), and responsibility for the young held in common between all of the adults of the preceding generation? I didn't touch on the polyandry or polygamy aspect because it would be on a case-by-case basis. In regions where the female to male ratio was entirely out of balance it would be the norm. In the more balanced or larger population centers it would be frowned upon as an attempt to usurp power by simply breeding yourself into power. Other than the fact it's a bit of a sticky subject, there's that whole religion thing as well. If the gods don't play a big role in the society, marriage becomes a bit of a moot point. The ability of a goblinoid to support a household with multiple wives would be the determining factor. The same holds true with the "soldiers' wives" that have multiple husbands simply because they know that one or more of their husbands would be off on campaign for most of the year, if they returned at all.
gaerfindel 11-17-06, 02:07 PM	Of course there is no mention on how good of seafarers the goblonoids were. If memeory serves, I believe Keith mentioned tha the Dhakaani had no traidtion of sailing until the Lazhaar & her fleet arrived in Khorvaire. This has led me to postulate that the power of the southern coastal cities of the empire, like Sharaat (Sharn), rested partly on the backs of the free oarmen [sic] who powered the Imperial fleets. Further, I can see hobgoblin-manned war galleys being a valuable source of coastal & littoral* defense during the Last War--particularly for Breland & Cyre--and that part of Lhesh Haruuc's political strength rests on the loyalty & support of those self-same oarsmen. *The worst place for a sailing vessel to be is pinned between a weather opponent and a lee shore, sapping the ship's ability to manoevour in and around the shoals & skerries. An oared vessel has no such restrictions; witness the Viking longships.
goblin_pride 11-17-06, 02:35 PM	If memeory serves, I believe Keith mentioned tha the Dhakaani had no traidtion of sailing until the Lazhaar & her fleet arrived in Khorvaire. This has led me to postulate that the power of the southern coastal cities of the empire, like Sharaat (Sharn), rested partly on the backs of the free oarmen [sic] who powered the Imperial fleets. Further, I can see hobgoblin-manned war galleys being a valuable source of coastal & littoral* defense during the Last War--particularly for Breland & Cyre--and that part of Lhesh Haruuc's political strength rests on the loyalty & support of those self-same oarsmen. *The worst place for a sailing vessel to be is pinned between a weather opponent and a lee shore, sapping the ship's ability to manoevour in and around the shoals & skerries. An oared vessel has no such restrictions; witness the Viking longships. I know the article you mentioned, but that was in reference to the word "sailboat". Personally, I would make Dhakaani war vessels all rowed with no sails whatsoever and their smaller merchant vessels sailed with oars for manuvering, similar to Arabian and viking ships. The point being that "A Dhakaani warship doesn't rely on the wind for it's power, the Dhakaani are it's power". The same Dhakaani goblins that developed flight for use in the mountains would've tried making use of it on the seas as well. Harnessing the wind to carry a goblin from ridge to ridge in the mountains would've been easily adapted to lifting huge stone blocks in construction and pulling merchant vessels over long distances at sea. As a result of the point of origin of the wind-driven technologies, the Dhakaani merchant ships would use a lateen rigging* rather than the european square-rigging. * Lateen rigging is based around large triangular sails, with the top boom hoisted into place at the mast and the lower boom shifted from side to side depending on wind direction. Arguements as to the more efficient use of sails has been going on among sailors for millenia, I thought this would be the more likely used by the Dhakaani because it just looks more like a kite. Thus the Dhakaani word for sail would never come because it would simply be the "ship's kite"
gaerfindel 11-17-06, 02:43 PM	Goblin communities in larger cities consisted of walled-off sections of the city filled with goblin tenements. The favored style of building in the cities of the hobgoblins was to build upwards instead of outwards, so goblin neighborhoods would reach seven and eight stories high using simple timber construction and even higher using stone and brick. With the kitchens and dining areas closest to the ground floor, the elder members of a family or clan would mark their status based on how close to the bottom floors they were, with the youngest living in the top-most floors. This makes sense, though given the ability of all gobos to see in the dark, I envision such cities being dug into cliffsides (think Chaco Canyon, et al), rather than built up into tenemant-style towers. ..Rural goblins, on the other hand spread out their buildings in order to give themselves the added defense that open lanes and walled compounds gave them. There are communities in nothern China who build large, circular enclosed towers that reach 4-5 stories or more. Each individual family unit (father, mother, unmarried sons & daughters) has their own "apartment", with each family being related to all the others in the "clan-dwelling", essentially creating what the dwarves would call a "clanhold". (A possible reason for the emnity between goblins & dwarve--similar construction needs.) This I see as what a "rural" goblin clan would do: build an artificial "cliffside" for their city. Goblins tended to make the best possible use of space within the areas they controlled in the cities of the old empire. In a goblin enclave, it wasn't unusual to see the rooftops of all their buildings growing lush and green with rooftop gardens. In Dhakaan Draal one clan's holdings grew so large over time, it was said they had an orchard on the rooves of their compound that supplied all the capitol's apples. Oh now this is too sweet not to use. It may not be fact, but it makes great propoganda.
goblin_pride 11-17-06, 02:57 PM	This makes sense, though given the ability of all gobos to see in the dark, I envision such cities being dug into cliffsides (think Chaco Canyon, et al), rather than built up into tenemant-style towers. So do I in places where the terrain supported it. Cities like Paluur Draal in the Seawall mountains would be huge underground as well as above, but cities like Yarkuun Draal, with no mountains to build off of would be built with an eye towards making goblin-made mountains inside the cities. I took the description of medieval Osaka as an inspiration while I was thinking of this. Osaka was a city that was divided internally into several fortifications held by the vassals of the Daimyo of the province. Each Vassal lord's home within his lord's city could be held against a siege individually if the city defenses were breached.
gaerfindel 11-17-06, 03:00 PM	If memeory serves, I believe Keith mentioned tha the Dhakaani had no traidtion of sailing until the Lazhaar & her fleet arrived in Khorvaire. I know the article you mentioned, but that was in reference to the word "sailboat". Personally, I would make Dhakaani war vessels all rowed with no sails whatsoever and their smaller merchant vessels sailed with oars for manuvering, similar to Arabian and viking ships. The point being that "A Dhakaani warship doesn't rely on the wind for it's power, the Dhakaani are it's power". I dunno. I kinda like the idea that no one in Khorvaire thought to harness the wind to a ship until Lazhaar. (Or possibly not, Dhakaan *did* have contact with the Tairnadal, and they undoubtedly had sailing vessels. But due to cultural prejudice, I can easily envision the duurlagha proclaiming such technology as "week, and unworthy of the Mighty Folk." But I digress.) In any case, that's what I meant, that Dhakaan had a tradition of oared warships & merchantmen. The same Dhakaani goblins that developed flight for use in the mountains would've tried making use of it on the seas as well. Harnessing the wind to carry a goblin from ridge to ridge in the mountains would've been easily adapted to lifting huge stone blocks in construction and pulling merchant vessels over long distances at sea. As a result of the point of origin of the wind-driven technologies, the Dhakaani merchant ships would use a lateen rigging* rather than the european square-rigging. Hadn't thought of that possibility. Maybe there might've been *some* experimentation with sails or kites. More interesteing to me would be the idea of harnessing (literally) some form of sea-beast to their vessels for longer voyages. "Always care for your war turtle, son; they are what allow us to defy the winds those foreigner elves must use to attempt to breech our shores." YMMV.
goblin_pride 11-17-06, 03:11 PM	I dunno. I kinda like the idea that no one in Khorvaire thought to harness the wind to a ship until Lazhaar. (Or possibly not, Dhakaan *did* have contact with the Tairnadal, and they undoubtedly had sailing vessels. But due to cultural prejudice, I can easily envision the duurlagha proclaiming such technology as "week, and unworthy of the Mighty Folk." But I digress.) In any case, that's what I meant, that Dhakaan had a tradition of oared warships & merchantmen. My thinking was that sail technology would be used only by the merchant shipping. Warships would never rely on such "unreliable" power and that only "fat and lazy merchants" would use it to avoid the real work of rowing. Goblins however, are unsuited to rowing and they would use sails extensively because of this or avoid the sea altogether. As I said in the post on flying goblins, it would still be something that most of the Dhakaani saw as being slightly insane, relying on the wind. But among the goblin pioneers of the technology, there would still be quite a bit of excitement when things did go horribly wrong.
eehamburg 11-17-06, 03:35 PM	Look ... up in the sky .... it's a bird ... it's a plane ... Nahhh ... it's just a wacko goblin ... 1 if by land 2 if by sea .... When you combine that, think of this ... Goblin SEALs ... Seals are afterall Sea, Air, and Land ... so imagine the goblin ninjas training for sea, air, and land ... they would be the stealthiest, nastiest, most cunning, most clever, most creative, and most deadly warriors that ever existed... that is when clandestine operations were necessary .... Goblin Black Ops ... can you imagine those meetings?
goblin_pride 11-17-06, 03:48 PM	Look ... up in the sky .... it's a bird ... it's a plane ... Nahhh ... it's just a wacko goblin ... 1 if by land 2 if by sea .... When you combine that, think of this ... Goblin SEALs ... Seals are afterall Sea, Air, and Land ... so imagine the goblin ninjas training for sea, air, and land ... they would be the stealthiest, nastiest, most cunning, most clever, most creative, and most deadly warriors that ever existed... that is when clandestine operations were necessary .... Goblin Black Ops ... can you imagine those meetings? Strangely enough, the infernal bovine himself suggested the ninja prestige class for the members of the goblin Sharaat'khesh clan. As far as the whole hang-gliding thing goes, however, I can't see it gaining enough widespread use to make using it by the Sharaat'khesh too likely. Even a gobbo knows that gobbos can't fly....
eehamburg 11-17-06, 05:28 PM	Mr. Baker states that while he loves the goblins and would love to partake in this thread, he is already using too much time on the boards that he had to cancel a GenCon meeting. In addition, because he loves them so much, he doesn't want to partake in the event that it mihgt ruin anything. Therefore, he doesn't have the time to respond to this thread.... This was all paraphrased per the PM that I sent him. Oh well .... we tried. Back to the thread ... Strangely enough, the infernal bovine himself suggested the ninja prestige class for the members of the goblin Sharaat'khesh clan. As far as the whole hang-gliding thing goes, however, I can't see it gaining enough widespread use to make using it by the Sharaat'khesh too likely. Even a gobbo knows that gobbos can't fly.... Off we go into the wild blue yonder, off we go here we come ... you'll never see us, but we'll slit your throats and make off with the loot before we're gone .... la la la ... la la la la...
lordalm 11-17-06, 07:41 PM	My thinking on the agnostic empire is based somewhat on this. In the early empire there was a tradition of adding the local cults and gods into the Imperial dynasty's pantheon. With the original gods there was power enough to support clerics, but with the inclusion of all the gods of the growing empire that power began to dilute. It was difficult for the clerics of the middle empire period to cast even the simplest of divine magic, so the government stopped relying on them altogether. The faiths based on natural forces, such as the druids, rangers and some of the rural Dhakaani agriculture and nature gods still gave power to their clerics because their focus wasn't on the deity itself to power their spells. Certain gods, those that seem to corespond directly to the sovereign host and the lost 16th also maintained alot of their power simply because they were common among multitudes of clans and tribes, but the empire had already come to the conclusion that the gods didn't have power any longer. If the Dhakaani had conglomerated the gods rather than taking whole pantheons into their religious practice, they might have been able to support the imperial cult as a unified pantheon, but it was the vastness of it that caused an erosion of the power of the gods. Some of the local priests were able to maintain their ties to the old gods of their villages and cities, but they were the exception rather than the rule. Viewed with suspicion for the power they were able to command, the mystics of faith in the late empire period would've been shunned for "communing with the unnatural". In the wild places on the edges of Dhakaani control, these mystics held the faith of the gods their people had always revered, outside the prying eyes of the citizens of the empire. After the fall of the empire, the old gods' mystics began to move freely within the cities and villages that once shunned them. Some were greeted with open arms for their ability to channel the will of their gods to benefit the people, others were chastised for not doing anything to help support the crumbling empire. The Gatekeeper sect specifically were openly attacked for not acting sooner to stop the Daelkyr. The rift between the goblinoids and the orcs dates from this dark period of the empire. Who knew "divide and conquer" worked on gods as well? My good friend and gming foil goblin pride has an interesting premise. However, in the Faiths of Eberron it states that the SH is worshipped as a whole there by strengthing the pantheon across the board. I already told him this in the real world, thought I would share with you all as well. Now lets assume that Goblin Prides take is correct. Why would it work that way for the goblinoids and not for the rest of worshippers of gods out there? Well lets go back to my earlier mention of Gruumish (by the way the faithful were converted to Dol Dorn because they didn't have to pluck out thier eye to get in good with thier god. Got love that whole pain response huh?). Taking a card from WoTC's conversion card of choice. All the gods of the Goblinoids where Raja trapped by the Coautl. So here we have a point of focus if not the sorce of preistly might, we have a sort of answer as to why they might not have been all out to oppose the SH (they couldn't). Note in the various books and I belive first addressed in ECS concerning faith. You don't have to have something others believe in, you have to have something you believe in. Which kinda of takes that whole feeding loop of faith and souls for diefic power like used in so many fantasy settings (FR for example). It also means if you cut off the head, its likely that the critter will die with out propogating. So once you get to the point of the given relgions, you can't kill the idea by killing the messenger.
lordalm 11-17-06, 07:45 PM	I don't think that he is legally allowed to say anything. While I think he might have seen this thread, I don't think he can comment too much on anything official. Seeing him all over the official material posts and seeing a couple of things off site. I would assume that to be the case. Hellcow strikes me as the kinda of guy who likes talking over the material or the ideas that grow from them.
lordalm 11-17-06, 08:21 PM	Goblins are unique among the Dhakaani races in that they can have as many as 6 generations alive at the same time. While such a prolific breeding rate makes one think there wouldn't be enough time to tend to the needs of each child individually the goblins developed a society in the empire in which each child would receive the appropriate amount of attention during it's upbringing. SMACK! "Get your butt to work you little anklebiter, this city of the Hobs won't get built with you mooning over that fat rat!" Says a father, lovingly to his child..... Goblin communities in larger cities consisted of walled-off sections of the city filled with goblin tenements. The favored style of building in the cities of the hobgoblins was to build upwards instead of outwards, so goblin neighborhoods would reach seven and eight stories high using simple timber construction and even higher using stone and brick. With the kitchens and dining areas closest to the ground floor, the elder members of a family or clan would mark their status based on how close to the bottom floors they were, with the youngest living in the top-most floors.. Not up down, nocturnal tunnel dwellers if my ecology of the old 2.x is correct. So that would certainly be more logical and would explain the lack of Dhaakani ruins. Humans and elves build up, not down. Goblins tended to make the best possible use of space within the areas they controlled in the cities of the old empire. In a goblin enclave, it wasn't unusual to see the rooftops of all their buildings growing lush and green with rooftop gardens. In Dhakaan Draal one clan's holdings grew so large over time, it was said they had an orchard on the rooves of their compound that supplied all the capitol's apples. And going off the building below ground they would have little tunnels all over the place that thier bigger kin couldn't really fit into. Secrets in the empire, just between you the walls and the goblin ears behind them. "Hey you. Ya' the warlord wanna be. I got a deal you can't refuse..." Da Boss Ratcatcher, obun of the underclasses. Rural goblins, on the other hand spread out their buildings in order to give themselves the added defense that open lanes and walled compounds gave them. Individual houses among the rural goblins was common, any that reached breeding age would simply begin construction of their own housing, usually assisted by one of the clan's many grandfathers. Naw, underground with traps galore. 5hp average? Not coming anywhere near you.... Defensive walls were extremely common among the goblins in the empire. Among the city-dwelling goblins, whole neighborhoods would be walled in so that other clans knew that "these neighborhoods are ours". To further the sense of identity, clans would paint the walls in bright vibrant colors in order to show their individuality. In the cities, a defensive wall would be 3-4 stories (15-20 ft) high, and wide enough for two goblins to stand abreast atop it. As the buildings inside the outer wall grew to that height, connecting walkways would be built to access the walltops so that more goblins could be rushed to the defense if needed. Over time, the tenements of the goblins would spill over and the connecting walkways would become the floors of additional rooms making goblin neighborhoods look like one giant building with no windows on the first 3-4 floors. I could see this in the Hob cities. With plenty of graphiti on the walls. Something about Hobs and thier matting habits...:yuck:
lordalm 11-17-06, 08:41 PM	I didn't touch on the polyandry or polygamy aspect because it would be on a case-by-case basis. In regions where the female to male ratio was entirely out of balance it would be the norm. In the more balanced or larger population centers it would be frowned upon as an attempt to usurp power by simply breeding yourself into power. Other than the fact it's a bit of a sticky subject, there's that whole religion thing as well. If the gods don't play a big role in the society, marriage becomes a bit of a moot point. The ability of a goblinoid to support a household with multiple wives would be the determining factor. The same holds true with the "soldiers' wives" that have multiple husbands simply because they know that one or more of their husbands would be off on campaign for most of the year, if they returned at all. Actually real world multi-"wives" existed with either the tatic approval of relgion of the area or without. Guys can't keep it in thier pants. And some have a tendency to want to make a permanet claim on what they have, ah, "taken."
lordalm 11-17-06, 08:53 PM	If memeory serves, I believe Keith mentioned tha the Dhakaani had no traidtion of sailing until the Lazhaar & her fleet arrived in Khorvaire. This has led me to postulate that the power of the southern coastal cities of the empire, like Sharaat (Sharn), rested partly on the backs of the free oarmen [sic] who powered the Imperial fleets. Further, I can see hobgoblin-manned war galleys being a valuable source of coastal & littoral* defense during the Last War--particularly for Breland & Cyre--and that part of Lhesh Haruuc's political strength rests on the loyalty & support of those self-same oarsmen. *The worst place for a sailing vessel to be is pinned between a weather opponent and a lee shore, sapping the ship's ability to manoevour in and around the shoals & skerries. An oared vessel has no such restrictions; witness the Viking longships. I could definetly see the ancient Dhaakani being that way. Say the Roman and Greek navies of the Mediteranian. Hugged the shores, and used oarsmen for combat manuevers. With the advance of sailing displayed by the Lhazar I would think that modern goblinoids would use the more modern methods. Always assuming that this, what 10 year old kingdom at the most even has a navy...
Siran Dunmorgan 11-17-06, 09:51 PM	If the gods don't play a big role in the society, marriage becomes a bit of a moot point.It's not a really pivotal point, but I must respectfully disagree. Marriage is perhaps the only institution common across all societies in the real world, whether or not those societies believe it an institution blessed by the gods, or, for that matter, whether or not the society believes in gods at all. The specific forms vary, e.g. temporary marriages, polygamy, polyandry, marriages of convenience, of political alliance, et al., but every society known to humanity or history recognizes something that can reasonably be described as the institution of marriage. —Siran Dunmorgan P. S. Disagreement is welcome, but you'll have to take it up with the anthropology faculty at the University of Arizona. The universality of marriage is one of the first things taught to beginning anthropology students, in response to the inevitable question "are there any real constants in cultural anthropology?"
lordalm 11-17-06, 10:31 PM	It's not a really pivotal point, but I must respectfully disagree. Marriage is perhaps the only institution common across all societies in the real world, whether or not those societies believe it an institution blessed by the gods, or, for that matter, whether or not the society believes in gods at all. The specific forms vary, e.g. temporary marriages, polygamy, polyandry, marriages of convenience, of political alliance, et al., but every society known to humanity or history recognizes something that can reasonably be described as the institution of marriage. —Siran Dunmorgan P. S. Disagreement is welcome, but you'll have to take it up with the anthropology faculty at the University of Arizona. The universality of marriage is one of the first things taught to beginning anthropology students, in response to the inevitable question "are there any real constants in cultural anthropology?" Which is why I shake my head at all the "amendments" to marriage to keep gays out. You'd think all the married people would want every one to feel the pain....
goblin_pride 11-18-06, 12:38 AM	Not up down, nocturnal tunnel dwellers if my ecology of the old 2.x is correct. So that would certainly be more logical and would explain the lack of Dhaakani ruins. Humans and elves build up, not down. Once again, you're basing your perceptions on the modern goblinoids rather than the Dhakaani-era goblinoids. The big difference between the two is pretty staggering. While a modern goblinoid might brag about having an empire for 11,000 years, the actual empire builders and citizens would look at the modern ones with a great deal of scorn and ridicule. The lack of ruins could be a matter of the Daelkyr war, erosion, simply being grown over by the underbrush and forests, flooding, earthquakes, collapse, and being a really good source of pre-cut stone for settlements built later. And for the record, during the Dhakaani period, it was the gnomes that were the verminous tunnel-dwellers.The humans and dwarves still lived in caves and the elves had just thrown off the shackles of slavery.
goblin_pride 11-18-06, 02:43 AM	Marriage is perhaps the only institution common across all societies in the real world, whether or not those societies believe it an institution blessed by the gods, or, for that matter, whether or not the society believes in gods at all. The specific forms vary, e.g. temporary marriages, polygamy, polyandry, marriages of convenience, of political alliance, et al., but every society known to humanity or history recognizes something that can reasonably be described as the institution of marriage. My apologies, I took marriage in the context of a religious institution instead of the basic pair-bonding for mating purposes. By not going to the anthropological roots I made an error.
goblin_pride 11-18-06, 03:12 AM	SMACK! "Get your butt to work you little anklebiter, this city of the Hobs won't get built with you mooning over that fat rat!" Says a father, lovingly to his child..... This subject keeps coming up every page or so of this thread and frankly it's getting rather tiring posting and reposting explanations why it makes no sense. This article should help a bit. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebug/20041101a -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I realize it's a completely different line of thinking from the basic hobgoblin mentality, however, that's what makes the Dhakaani empire so different and so unique. It wasn't an empire driven by the same kind of thinking demonstrated in the modern goblinoids. It's hard to grasp that goblinoids in the empire would actually think about the fact that a goblin farmer will produce a larger crop if he actually has a motivation a little less forceful than the stroke of the lash. The level of autonomy of individual clans would play a big role in the size of the empire, without that degree of autonomy the empire would be more likely to have to put down revolts in the territory they control instead of being free to expand into the territories they don't. The iconic goblinoids didn't exist in the empire because the empire was based on cooperation rather than dominance.
Darth Syntax 11-18-06, 03:46 PM	On family structure in the Empire Marriage in general: Like most formalized marriage customs, imperial marriage evolved out of a combination the need to formalize property rights and to help ensure the raising of offspring. As a general rule, the empire didn't much care about the specifics of marriage, provided they could tax you and keep track of you and any potential offspring. The specifics of wedding ceremonies and practices were generally regional and caste based, ranging from a simple 'well, you have been living in the same house for 2 years and all of that, you are no considered family by the law' in the lower castes and rural areas, to complex ceremonies involving gift-giving (usually the people to be married gave gifts as well as received them), lots of singing, and a general somber atmosphere, to day -long parties full of food and merriment, to the simple signing of a document. Goblins: Of all the goblinoids in the empire, polyandry was the most common among the goblins. Due to the regularity of multiple births (often twins) having more 'parents' around to take care of the wee goblins was a good idea. Polygyny was almost unheard of among goblins. I have to say, I really like goblin_pride's idea of the 'roof-gardens' it provides a nice visual contrast to how i have been viewing the architecture of the empire (namely as one of clean, smooth lines, domes, columns, and generally of a red and rust colored stone). So if its alright, consider that stolen. As to goblin family structure in the empire, I have had several thoughts. Like all Dhakaani, the goblins consider both blood-relatives and close friends equally to be family, and as such it is not uncommon for them to live in close proximity (especially in the cities). As a general rule, goblins don't have much need for space so their dwellings tend to be crowded by most standards. In cities, goblin groups often seem to take over blocks of apartments and townhouses, making them into self-sufficient towns-unto-themselves. Over the years these goblin-held buildings undergo extensive remodeling: corridors are added to ease movement from one building to another, the lower floors are usually converted into shops or other places of business, and so on. This is not done in a hap-hazard fashion but rather carefully planned and carried out (partly to avoid the fines for building without a permit and for having shoddy architecture) and feature some of the most innovative concepts in high density living. While it is true that the poorer goblins (those of the lower castes usually) have less impressive structures, it is still a matter of pride to have the finest home that money can buy. Indeed it is a rather common goblin joke that one would rather build a fine labyrinth-house than eat. These labyrinthine compounds are a source of pride for the goblins and they tend to compete with their neighbors and rivals for the most spectacular structures. Sanitation is one of the features considered to be most important and imperial architects and engineers have been know to tour these structures to get ideas on how to design and build more efficient sanitation and water systems. Hobgoblins: Marriage among the Dhakaani hobgoblins is usually a matter of status and property rights, rather than a means of producing offspring or expressing love. Asa result, marriage is far more like a business partnership than what we might traditionally think of. This has lead to some rather interesting living arrangements and family structure issues. Among the middle and upper classes it is common, and usually encouraged for the married coupe (hobgoblins are usually monogamous) to live apart, although within the same city, and preferably in the same district. They will usually take the evening meal together (along with other family and friends in traditional Dhakaani fashion) and then return to their respective homes. Both parties are encouraged to take on a 'partner of affection' and it is common practice that they live together. Any offspring arising from these 'partners of affection' are considered to be of the same caste as their mother (descent in the empire being matralinial). Living arrangements among hobgoblins are less, well, crowded than among their smaller relativities. For the poor and lower classes, houses are generally smallish with only a few rooms although in cities running water is thankfully universal. The wealthier classes (merchants, bards, the free soldiers and the like) generally have houses built around a central hexagonal courtyard which is used as a kind of out-door room. Meals are usually taken in the court-yard and friends, neighbors, and family are usually in attendance for evening meals. The host of the dinner provides tea, wine, and much of the food, but receives gifts from the guests (usually small token items or tea) and is inevitably invited to be a guest at some other dinner the following night. These dinners can last well into the small hours and thus candles, lanterns, and other sources of light are liberally used. The household usually consists of the owner of the house, their partner, any offspring (provided that their mother is a member of the household or they have been adopted), and usually several close relatives or friends. Other relatives might live close by, but this is not normally the case. Instead, hobgoblins tend to live among those with whom they either share a profession or whose professions are closely related. So an apothecary is likely to live in an area where doctors, alchemists, and the like also live, and a clerk is likely to live among librarians, lawyers, and other clerks. Often, these colleagues serve the same function as an extended family. Bugbears: I must admit I 'know' the least about the bugbears so i can't really say much of them at the moment. So, any ideas?
goblin_pride 11-18-06, 04:36 PM	I have to say, I really like goblin_pride's idea of the 'roof-gardens' it provides a nice visual contrast to how i have been viewing the architecture of the empire (namely as one of clean, smooth lines, domes, columns, and generally of a red and rust colored stone). So if its alright, consider that stolen. I nicked the idea from the Hanging Gardens of Babylon, but if you need approval, go ahead and steal it. I thought having gardens on top of the buildings would serve a couple purposes. First, it would make seeing the whole city from the air a bit more difficult. A goblin is still small enough to be kind of leery of large flying predators. The added protection of moving the ground level up to the top of their dwellings would make them feel more comfortable and secure. Second, being the farmers of the empire, they would see the rooves of their dwellings as being similar enough to the terraced fields of their mountain homes that they could grow some of their own food there. As large as some dwellings would grow over time, I can see goblins even tending small flocks of sheep, goat and other small animals on rooftop pastures. Third and most importantly in my mind is that if the buildings are already supporting plant life on their rooves, it would take far less time for them to be reclaimed and grown over after the fall of the empire. The speed at which plant life grows over settlements is slowed at the start by the plants having to make that initial foothold and then nourishing the later plant growth. If the goblins themselves started that process there wouldn't be that initial slow period of growth, the buildings themselves would already be there to drop leaf litter and seed into the streets below. You'd end up with a multi-level rainforest within a few years and as the trees at street level grew upwards, the leaf litter soil would grow up around them and eventually bury them completely in later growth.
goblin_pride 11-18-06, 04:42 PM	Bugbears: I must admit I 'know' the least about the bugbears so i can't really say much of them at the moment. So, any ideas? This is the one I draw a blank on myself. I had thought to make them somewhat isolationist even within the cities of the empire, but that wouldn't exactly fit with their role as the brute force element in the Dhakaani armies. Bugbears are one of the places where the caste-based system breaks down. If the whole society follows a system where each is assigned due to race and qualification, bugbears make better laborers than goblins and they're by far stronger as the military castes. This is part of the reason I tend to go with the more patchwork model for government. I look at bugbears being more like the auxilaries were in the roman legions. They were soldiers in the narrowest sense, they received their pay from the empire, they fought for the empire and when their time was up they became citizens of Rome, so they could be appointed to office in their home territories and they were granted lands there as well. But they were not Roman, they maintained a seperate identity and even had officers from their own home country. Although nominally under the command of the legion they were attached to, they did have a great deal of autonomy.
goblin_pride 11-18-06, 05:10 PM	Goblins: Of all the goblinoids in the empire, polyandry was the most common among the goblins. Due to the regularity of multiple births (often twins) having more 'parents' around to take care of the wee goblins was a good idea. Polygyny was almost unheard of among goblins. I went a slightly different way with this. I had thought that grandparents would play an equal role as well as aunts, uncles and even adult brothers and sisters. The rearing and teaching of goblin young wouldn't fall on just the parents, but on the clan as a whole for the most part. It would be a case of all the goblin children would be raised by all the adults in a given bloodline. By being raised by a cooperative group of elders the young goblins would learn that it's the group that's stronger than the individual. And due to their size, cooperation is a big concern. This is my primary reason for growing irritated at the "hobgoblin overseer" remarks that keep popping up. Goblins and the goblin clans of the empire want to work together to strengthen the empire because the stronger the empire the safer the clans and the safer the individuals of those clans. A goblin worker will build roads, aquaducts, and fortifications because it strengthens the whole rather than because it's being forced on him by an overlord. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Hobgoblins may control much of the military structure out of their natural gift for the organizational skills needed by generals, but that doesn't mean that every soldier of the empire is a hobgoblin. Goblins provide very much needed support for the armies in scouting, foraging, cavalry, archers and even infantry. Yes, goblins are smaller in size, but they are also a majority in the empire. Being a majority means that at some point they would have to bolster the numbers of imperial armies just so that those armies could continue to exist. Some armies, specifically the one dealing with the problems in Zil would most likely be composed primarily of goblins, due to the nature of the enemy.
Darth Syntax 11-18-06, 08:08 PM	I agree with you (other than the importance of the clan thing, as this is downplayed in my imagining of the empire). I certainly see other relatives taking part in the raising of wee goblins. I also see a large role for friends of the parents and the like, as they are also considered to be close family. As a general rule the 'family' you chose is considered more important than the family you were born to. The education of children is very important to the Dhakaani, and especially to the goblins of the empire, as it is the usual means by which they (goblins) attain power and status. However, this was not the only way by which goblins rose in power. Among the Dazhutran (the elite imperial slave-soldiers) those few (about 20%) who were goblins were widely used as observers, assassins, and general operatives. They rarely fought on the front lines of battle, but they were the ones plotting exactly how to dismantle the walls of the enemy city, or find some clever way inside. Goblins fight like Odysseus, not like Achilles. -- Some random thoughts on Bugbears (thank you Taski for reminding me . . . ) Dyolguur Hongishgele, the Cynic: During the early portion of the Reign of the Nine Golden Generals philosophy was the topic of choice at the tea-houses. Everyone had a philosophy, no matter how absurd, and the really good philosophers (those whose names and works are remembered like we remember Socrates, Lao Tzu, Diogenes, Nietzsche, and Dogen) had a social status which rivaled the greatest of bards. And then there was Dyolguur. He was fed up with the fame of the philosophers, he thought it made them weak in their thinking. So he gave up his comfortable life as the resident philosopher of a wealthy merchant and spent his time wandering the streets of Hankarash (the imperial capitol) with an enormous empty wine barrel strapped to his back . When asked what the barrel was for by the people on the streets, he would reply "Like the turtle, I carry my home with me." This, of course, had the opposite effect from what he had wanted, and instead of being able to sit in his barrel, alone and unwashed, and really get back to the basic of life and of thought,people came to him even more looking for wisdom. This annoyed him no end, but there wasn't anything he could do about it. Every time he told someone to "go stand in front of an angry elephant" it was interpreted as some secret pearl of wisdom. He became a philosophical sensation, and every day he insulted hundreds of bothersome people, and they all went home happy that they had received such insight from the bugbear. Eventually, Dyolguur left the capitol to raise spiders in the north, which had the effect of precipitating a brief vogue in spider-farming as a way to get in touch with one's inner self. So, thats my take on Bugbear philosophy, cynicism at its finest.
Neofish 11-19-06, 09:25 AM	I always kinda saw the Bugbears are the siegemasters of the godlinoids. They are strong and sneaky. As asset that could be used for both offense and defense. If you needed a place to be defended, you would send in the bugbears to trap and defend it. If you needed a wall brought down or infiltrators to be sent into a fortification, you would sent the bugbears first. Following this ideal, I would see most bugbears as bodyguards for every VIP in the empire. But that's just me.
lordalm 11-19-06, 05:06 PM	Once again, you're basing your perceptions on the modern goblinoids rather than the Dhakaani-era goblinoids. The big difference between the two is pretty staggering. While a modern goblinoid might brag about having an empire for 11,000 years, the actual empire builders and citizens would look at the modern ones with a great deal of scorn and ridicule. The lack of ruins could be a matter of the Daelkyr war, erosion, simply being grown over by the underbrush and forests, flooding, earthquakes, collapse, and being a really good source of pre-cut stone for settlements built later. And for the record, during the Dhakaani period, it was the gnomes that were the verminous tunnel-dwellers.The humans and dwarves still lived in caves and the elves had just thrown off the shackles of slavery. Ah, no the humans were still on Sarlona doing what ever they did before the Quori started body snatching them.... Gnomes might have lived underground but I kinda doubt it, no darkvision..... Oh poor goblin you see your betters about you in this modern age and so project on to your ansectors the same traights that we enlinetend humans and elves have brought to Khorvaire. Sad really, but understandable.....
goblin_pride 11-19-06, 10:36 PM	I always kinda saw the Bugbears are the siegemasters of the godlinoids. They are strong and sneaky. As asset that could be used for both offense and defense. If you needed a place to be defended, you would send in the bugbears to trap and defend it. If you needed a wall brought down or infiltrators to be sent into a fortification, you would sent the bugbears first. I always pictured bugbears harassing the siege masters to hurry up and cause a breach so they could rush in and take the city rather than actually operating the trebuchets, scorpians, catapults and ballistae. Rams are definately a bugbear's favorite siege weapon. Towers, while nice for getting atop the enemy's walls would need proper engineers to build. I do agree that bugbears would be the first choice for widening the breach, but for sneaking in and throwing open the defenses, a small knife is just as capable of slitting a throat and it's easier to hide. If you want to sneak a man into a city, don't send Hercules or Ajax, send Ulysses, a smaller man is harder to spot. Obviously it wouldn't always be possible to get the optimum effect out of all the mixed races of the empire, but for generalities, if it involves brute force you can bet there's a bugbear ready and willing to volunteer for it. Bugbears live and die for a chance at glory. If it means they'll be remembered in the songs of the Duur'kala, a bugbear would cross the demon wastes naked to spit in a rakshasa's eye. When a city defies the empire's rule, goblins look at the thousands it would require to take it, the hobgoblins think in the hundreds and the bugbears think, "I can take that city".
goblin_pride 11-19-06, 11:04 PM	Ah, no the humans were still on Sarlona doing what ever they did before the Quori started body snatching them.... Gnomes might have lived underground but I kinda doubt it, no darkvision..... Oh poor goblin you see your betters about you in this modern age and so project on to your ansectors the same traights that we enlinetend humans and elves have brought to Khorvaire. Sad really, but understandable..... The humans may have been underdeveloped primates until the Quori, that's lost to the reach of history. No one was around to document it so no one knows. Unless I'm mistaken, aren't most burrowing creatures tunnel-dwellers? And in the Dhakaani calling them "jungle rats", that kind of denotes vermin, doesn't it? And as for your last statement, it's rather insulting to me personally that you would stick to the monster manual's narrow view of the goblinoid races and question my interpretation of the Dhakaani goblinoids without offering up something substantial as an alternative. My ideas, while rather utopian, are based on real-world thinking and fully in-line with the "things are not always what they seem" attitude of Eberron. Seeing in their betters? Humans have just ended a century long conflict over which child had the right to rule Daddy's kingdom. The elves worship their dead and still can't decide which is the best way, so there's two conflicting schools of thought as to how best to worship their dead. The humans have a new faith that involves killing anything that doesn't conform to their narrow-minded, black-and-white concept of good and evil, killing the good or evil lycanthropes simply because they exist. All things being equal, I don't see how there is a "betters" to envy. Frankly, the rule of Droaam is preferable to the human kingdoms, at least there some value is ascribed to merit rather than species or order of birth.
Joni-san 11-19-06, 11:07 PM	Bugbears, the Vin Diesels, Mr.T's and Chuck Norrises of goblindom? I was thinking of Bugbeard in the empire and for some reason I have this image of them being either nomadic or living on mountains. This would suggest that they are either animal herders and/or hunter-gatherers. On another note, any thoughts on Dhakaani agriculture? I figure that goblins would use compost (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compost) in farming or atleast in gardening.
goblin_pride 11-19-06, 11:43 PM	On another note, any thoughts on Dhakaani agriculture? I figure that goblins would use compost (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compost) in farming or atleast in gardening. My thinking is that all the races fulfilled all the roles of an individual society, rather than one race carrying the burden for all. I have no problem seeing bugbears herding tribex or a hobgoblin tending to a rice paddy. While most of the focus of people's thinking has been on the military might, the artistic expressions and the philosophical wisdom of the empire, the empire's belly still needs to be filled. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I learned a few things from history. From the Japanese I learned that the true measure of a soldier's value was in the things they did when not engaged in the bloody business of their empire, art, music, poetry, paperfolding, and flower arranging were all skills taught and learned by some of the fiercest warlords in history. And from the Romans I learned that in teaching soldiers to serve a purpose beyond the battlefield, you gain in the roads, aquaducts and quality of life those soldiers bring with them after conquering a neighboring territory. But how does that apply to agriculture? Armies need to be fed, the soldiers would bring within the army hordes of farmers, herdsmen and the like to immediately bring new territories up to the imperial standard of food production. If a new territory couldn't produce enough food to support the conquering army, the territory's original population would suffer, and suffering people do not make happy subjects. Among the engineering units during sieges the Dhakaani had goblinoid farming experts carting away wagonloads of limbs, branches, leaves and other materials to compost and later nourish the fields after the cities were taken. Two purposes would be achieved by this, feeding the population and the occupying force and then, showing to the citizens of an occupied territory that life in the empire would be better for them under the empire than their former master's rule. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- By attempting to duplicate the lushness of the rainforests, the Dhakaani farmers would have easily learned the use of compost or been taught by the orcish druids in the client-states of the shadow marches and utilized it in an attempt to make their harvests as bountiful as possible.
eehamburg 11-20-06, 09:15 AM	Marriage is perhaps the only institution common across all societies in the real world, whether or not those societies believe it an institution blessed by the gods, or, for that matter, whether or not the society believes in gods at all. So therefore, is marriage an institution created by the wives??? Which is why I shake my head at all the "amendments" to marriage to keep gays out. You'd think all the married people would want every one to feel the pain.... Isn't that what makes marriage great? That everyone should feel its pain? I think that this is a universal truth. As far as bugbears go .. I always saw them as brute force and brute force alone. That the creative or inventive mind behind the soldier was the hobs, but that the bugbears were the muscle.
lordalm 11-20-06, 02:25 PM	This subject keeps coming up every page or so of this thread and frankly it's getting rather tiring posting and reposting explanations why it makes no sense. This article should help a bit. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebug/20041101a -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I realize it's a completely different line of thinking from the basic hobgoblin mentality, however, that's what makes the Dhakaani empire so different and so unique. It wasn't an empire driven by the same kind of thinking demonstrated in the modern goblinoids. It's hard to grasp that goblinoids in the empire would actually think about the fact that a goblin farmer will produce a larger crop if he actually has a motivation a little less forceful than the stroke of the lash. The level of autonomy of individual clans would play a big role in the size of the empire, without that degree of autonomy the empire would be more likely to have to put down revolts in the territory they control instead of being free to expand into the territories they don't. The iconic goblinoids didn't exist in the empire because the empire was based on cooperation rather than dominance. Umm, I might be a tad slow today, but what does the article do besides put the empire only on the western side of Khorvaire and only address the modern gobos looking back on thier anscestors as far as the rest of this thread goes?
lordalm 11-20-06, 02:34 PM	I nicked the idea from the Hanging Gardens of Babylon, but if you need approval, go ahead and steal it. I thought having gardens on top of the buildings would serve a couple purposes. First, it would make seeing the whole city from the air a bit more difficult. A goblin is still small enough to be kind of leery of large flying predators. The added protection of moving the ground level up to the top of their dwellings would make them feel more comfortable and secure. Second, being the farmers of the empire, they would see the rooves of their dwellings as being similar enough to the terraced fields of their mountain homes that they could grow some of their own food there. As large as some dwellings would grow over time, I can see goblins even tending small flocks of sheep, goat and other small animals on rooftop pastures. Third and most importantly in my mind is that if the buildings are already supporting plant life on their rooves, it would take far less time for them to be reclaimed and grown over after the fall of the empire. The speed at which plant life grows over settlements is slowed at the start by the plants having to make that initial foothold and then nourishing the later plant growth. If the goblins themselves started that process there wouldn't be that initial slow period of growth, the buildings themselves would already be there to drop leaf litter and seed into the streets below. You'd end up with a multi-level rainforest within a few years and as the trees at street level grew upwards, the leaf litter soil would grow up around them and eventually bury them completely in later growth. It would also have a psychological effect if one keeps assuming as I do that they spent most of thier early climb from savagery living in either caves or areas constructed underground. "Roots over the head, safe in bed." But again, I would put this in only the more Hob centric cities and thats only because I can't remember if the hobs had a preferenc for above or below ground dwellins. From some of the "remains of the empire" which crop up in the books (the fiction not the source material) they tended to build underground compexes and cities. Part of the reason I keep going there.
lordalm 11-20-06, 02:40 PM	This is the one I draw a blank on myself. I had thought to make them somewhat isolationist even within the cities of the empire, but that wouldn't exactly fit with their role as the brute force element in the Dhakaani armies. Bugbears are one of the places where the caste-based system breaks down. If the whole society follows a system where each is assigned due to race and qualification, bugbears make better laborers than goblins and they're by far stronger as the military castes. This is part of the reason I tend to go with the more patchwork model for government. I look at bugbears being more like the auxilaries were in the roman legions. They were soldiers in the narrowest sense, they received their pay from the empire, they fought for the empire and when their time was up they became citizens of Rome, so they could be appointed to office in their home territories and they were granted lands there as well. But they were not Roman, they maintained a seperate identity and even had officers from their own home country. Although nominally under the command of the legion they were attached to, they did have a great deal of autonomy. In one of the source books or dragonshards I seem to recall they were respected for being one man shock forces in battles, using barbarin rage though more of a controlled berserker. Maybe a battle rager ala the dwarves in FR? For civil persuits they were respected for thier great strength. But they were basically constrained by thier intelligence. Obvioulusly from the way things stand now they were taken advantage of during the collapse or in some other way POed enough to strike out on thier own, hence the bugbear kingdoms.
lordalm 11-20-06, 02:53 PM	I went a slightly different way with this. I had thought that grandparents would play an equal role as well as aunts, uncles and even adult brothers and sisters. The rearing and teaching of goblin young wouldn't fall on just the parents, but on the clan as a whole for the most part. It would be a case of all the goblin children would be raised by all the adults in a given bloodline. By being raised by a cooperative group of elders the young goblins would learn that it's the group that's stronger than the individual. And due to their size, cooperation is a big concern. This is my primary reason for growing irritated at the "hobgoblin overseer" remarks that keep popping up. Goblins and the goblin clans of the empire want to work together to strengthen the empire because the stronger the empire the safer the clans and the safer the individuals of those clans. A goblin worker will build roads, aquaducts, and fortifications because it strengthens the whole rather than because it's being forced on him by an overlord. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Hobgoblins may control much of the military structure out of their natural gift for the organizational skills needed by generals, but that doesn't mean that every soldier of the empire is a hobgoblin. Goblins provide very much needed support for the armies in scouting, foraging, cavalry, archers and even infantry. Yes, goblins are smaller in size, but they are also a majority in the empire. Being a majority means that at some point they would have to bolster the numbers of imperial armies just so that those armies could continue to exist. Some armies, specifically the one dealing with the problems in Zil would most likely be composed primarily of goblins, due to the nature of the enemy. I was looking at it more like the samuari and the peasant dynamic of ancient japan. Just with the division opperating along racial lines instead of birth/training within the society.
lordalm 11-20-06, 02:59 PM	The humans may have been underdeveloped primates until the Quori, that's lost to the reach of history. No one was around to document it so no one knows. Unless I'm mistaken, aren't most burrowing creatures tunnel-dwellers? And in the Dhakaani calling them "jungle rats", that kind of denotes vermin, doesn't it? And as for your last statement, it's rather insulting to me personally that you would stick to the monster manual's narrow view of the goblinoid races and question my interpretation of the Dhakaani goblinoids without offering up something substantial as an alternative. My ideas, while rather utopian, are based on real-world thinking and fully in-line with the "things are not always what they seem" attitude of Eberron. Seeing in their betters? Humans have just ended a century long conflict over which child had the right to rule Daddy's kingdom. The elves worship their dead and still can't decide which is the best way, so there's two conflicting schools of thought as to how best to worship their dead. The humans have a new faith that involves killing anything that doesn't conform to their narrow-minded, black-and-white concept of good and evil, killing the good or evil lycanthropes simply because they exist. All things being equal, I don't see how there is a "betters" to envy. Frankly, the rule of Droaam is preferable to the human kingdoms, at least there some value is ascribed to merit rather than species or order of birth. Opps, poking fun poke button. My sincere apologies.
lordalm 11-20-06, 03:11 PM	So to kind of bring some kind of universal view on the Empire would those who commonly post here please post thier top 5 things they see the Empire having in the way of societal organiztion or similiar. 1) Caste system domentated by the Hobs, Gobs doing much of the universal labor/grunt jobs, Bugs doing the heavy lifting and in your face fighting. 2) A very uniform construction system along the lines of the Roman empire with roads and such being built with precise lines. I see it being a more underground centric kingdom where the terrain permits for defensive and just preference of the races involved. Not much for ornementation of buildings (kind of like the real world modern era that way). 3) Lacking in "priests," bards fulfilling the gap in society. 4) Vary militant society, something along the lines of the japanes shogunate. 5) Beuacarcy reminescent of the chinese. I am trying to develop a world view for my game and it would help to concentrate some of the ideas presented so far.
Darth Syntax 11-20-06, 05:05 PM	I would like to comment on several points in no particular order, so please, bear with me as I ramble on here. Now then, 1. City Planning, architecture, and related issues. Most Dhakaani cities were built above ground, save for a few that were carved into cliffs. Even these, however, were filled with lamps, skylights and other sources of illumination. Only 'barbarians' live in darkness. Those structures which were constructed beneath the ground were either water systems (sewers, plumbing systems etc.) or storage facilities. In the more common type of city, streets were wide and planned to ease the movement of people and goods through the cities. However, Dhakaani cities were never laid out on a grid, rather they were arranged in a combination of concentric circles and regular triangular divisions. These shapes held great significance to the Empire for the circles represented the Wheels of the Law, while the triangles were evocative of the triad of goblin, hobgoblin, and bugbear which formed the basis of the imperial system. Like the layout of the roads, the architecture of the buildings followed this usage if triangles and circles, especially in public buildings and the more well-to-do houses. Hexagons (composed of regular triangles) are often used as the basic plan for houses, tea houses, and the like. Ornamentation of architecture was common, although there is a kind of stoic minimalism about it. Bas reliefs are common on public buildings as were mosaics and inlay patterns for the floors. Columns were often decorated with more 'organic' motifs, whorls, vines, trees, and the like. Architecture was an art, a science, and a great source of pride in the empire, and was treated accordingly. In the major cities, gardens were very much a part of life. Trees were common in wealthier districts, and many houses had their own rooftop gardens (thank you goblin_pride). Water too was important in the cities, and fountains and canals (especially in the capitol of Hankarash) were commonly constructed. 2. On the position of goblins I really don't see the Dhakaani goblins as having been an inherent underclass to begin with, but rather just considered 'short' as a matter of fact. The fact that goblins have the widest distribution in the Dhakaani castes, from the slaves to the heights of the civil service and even rising to the office of general more than once, has more to do with the fact that they are simply more numerous than their larger kin than any inherent inferiority. 3. On the position of hobgoblins I see the hobgoblins more as the 'public face' rather than the de facto rulers of the empire. They are often the most persuasive speakers, and so they were disproportionately represented in such positions as ambassadors, lawyers, bards, and political speakers. The Demagogues were mostly hobgoblins, true, but were not the only ones to influence the thought of the empire. 4. On the position of bugbears After some care consideration, I would like to propose so amendments to the purely warrior role of the bugbears. Due to their great strength, perfectly good intelligence, and excellent constitution, I can see them being employed in the fields of black-smithing, masonry, and glass-blowing, in addition to work as heavy laborers, soldiers, and other things. It makes very little sense to me to not take advantage of the strength of the bugbears for purposes other than military force. 5. On the militarization of the empire While I agree that the empire did have a strong martial tradition, I see it not as the central focus of the empire, but as part of the larger notion of civic order and a strong, centralized state. Of course the Dhakaani military was strong, it was the military that helped create the empire, and it was the military that built most of the roads and canals (vital to the commerce of the empire), and finally it was the military that was considered to be one of the most 'agentive' arms of the state. All that said, the military was a tool of the state, and like all tools, it could not be used in every situation. -- Well, enough of me for now, I'll probably have more later.
Neofish 11-20-06, 05:50 PM	As far as bugbears go .. I always saw them as brute force and brute force alone. That the creative or inventive mind behind the soldier was the hobs, but that the bugbears were the muscle. Well considering that that hobgoblins and goblins are no more intelligent that Bugbears i'd have to disagree. Also, bugbears have a +4 racial bonus to move silently checks, meaning they are very adept at ambushing and sneaking around. I have never seen the bugbear as the forthing madman barbarian I've always pined them more as rangers and scouts, rogues, fighters and ninja's. Not ninja's in the sense that they are black clad little sneaks like a goblin may be, but ghost faced killers, bright white and red warpaint, dropping in and terrorizing entire towns before the main goblinoid army arrives. Perhaps than being the hammer of the goblinoid army in all aspects (like siege). They would be the the intial assualt or vanguard of all goblinoid armies. A enemy of the goblins would first get a taste of what's to come from the bugbears, using guerilla tactics, these commandos would set in to demoralize the enemy, buring farms, slaughtering lone outposts and the like, perhaps scouting out weaknesses within enemy fortifications. In general, just sowing fear and regret into the enemy as the pave the way for the oncoming army. while a hobgoblin may be a good soldier who follows orders to a letter and plans in advance, bugbears are wild and free thinking, able to adapt and react without the restrictions of their more lawful brethern. I also think this would tie in with the idea of them people nomads and the more moutainous of their kin. I think this also allows for them to also be the barbarians most seem to think bugbears would be.
lordalm 11-20-06, 05:56 PM	Well considering that that hobgoblins and goblins are no more intelligent that Bugbears i'd have to disagree. Also, bugbears have a +4 racial bonus to move silently checks, meaning they are very adept at ambushing and sneaking around. I have never seen the bugbear as the forthing madman barbarian I've always pined them more as rangers and scouts, rogues, fighters and ninja's. Not ninja's in the sense that they are black clad little sneaks like a goblin may be, but ghost faced killers, bright white and red warpaint, dropping in and terrorizing entire towns before the main goblinoid army arrives. Perhaps than being the hammer of the goblinoid army in all aspects (like siege). They would be the the intial assualt or vanguard of all goblinoid armies. A enemy of the goblins would first get a taste of what's to come from the bugbears, using guerilla tactics, these commandos would set in to demoralize the enemy, buring farms, slaughtering lone outposts and the like, perhaps scouting out weaknesses within enemy fortifications. In general, just sowing fear and regret into the enemy as the pave the way for the oncoming army. while a hobgoblin may be a good soldier who follows orders to a letter and plans in advance, bugbears are wild and free thinking, able to adapt and react without the restrictions of their more lawful brethern. I also think this would tie in with the idea of them people nomads and the more moutainous of their kin. I think this also allows for them to also be the barbarians most seem to think bugbears would be. Hrmm, going to have to check bugbears in the MM. They are always being painted short of temper and lacking in the brain pan in everything I remember reading (which is pretty much only in Eberron, never see them really any place else).
goblin_pride 11-20-06, 06:04 PM	A top five list in no particular order. 1) A strong sense of cooperation and civic pride. The people knew that they were valued to the Dhakaani empire and that was what made the empire strong. No army can defeat the empire as long as the empire held to it's spirit of cooperation. 2) The Dhakaani built above ground, their cities were magnificent things to behold. Life was abundant in Dhakaani cities, from the marketplaces where trade would move at a fever pitch to the gardened court-yards and rooftop gardens of the goblins, living things were everywhere. Architecture was built heavily on the juxtaposition between the goblinoid-made and the natural. In places where the living plants wouldn't fit decorative elements of wood carved in nature-themed swirls or carved and painted stone would be used in it's place. The abandonment of the ancient Dhakaani cities would be the final insult to the Dhakaani remnant tribes because "only animals live in caves". 3) The tribes and clans were very important to the Dhakaani, their government was built around it. With representation in the Dhakaani government being voluntary, most clans never bothered to fill their seat in the grand Dhakaani council, trusting that other, smarter goblinoids would decide the laws of the empire as well as they could. The reason it looked as though the Hobgoblins ruled was because the Council was held in the captol city and it was a hobgoblin city. More often than not, the emperors simply sat and watched as the governing of the empire was done for them by their council. 4) Life in the empire was far better than it had ever been in the history of the goblinoids. With the prolonged period of peace in the heart of the empire, farmers were able to work their fields and then not have to guard them against other clans, so they were left with more time to enjoy. Generals spent less time leading armies to battle and were able to devote themselves to more peaceful pursuits, like poetry and philosophy. The common soldiers would spend as much time building cities as razing them, working like an armed construction crew throughout the empire. Games of sport took the place of the old clan wars of the pre-Dhakaani period, with old grudges being settled again and again with races, wrestling, boxing or any of a number of other games meant to demonstrate the strength of the physical side of the Dhakaani. Art flourished under the Dhakaani rule, it was a time when mere survival wasn't all there was to focus on. 5) The Dhakaani views on divine magic were odd to say the least. For the most part, the people as a whole shunned it as weak. Individually, it wasn't uncommon for people to go visit a local mystic for guidance. Druids came to Khorvaire during the Dhakaani period and were most likely shoved into the same category as the old gods' priests were. This reliance on the strength of the citizens without need for help from any gods later proved detrimental when the Gatekeeper sect had the means to stop the Daelkyr.
goblin_pride 11-20-06, 06:43 PM	Umm, I might be a tad slow today, but what does the article do besides put the empire only on the western side of Khorvaire and only address the modern gobos looking back on thier anscestors as far as the rest of this thread goes? The second paragraph under the heading "A permanent underclass" explains pretty effectively how a goblin majority could make any minority suffer.
goblin_pride 11-20-06, 06:54 PM	Well considering that that hobgoblins and goblins are no more intelligent that Bugbears i'd have to disagree. That's the whole point. Goblins, Hobgoblins and Bugbears are all completely equal in that they had independant governments and kingdoms of their own before the empire so in the empire they would each be just as capable of any task. A goblinoid empire would be like building a unified Gnome, Dwarf and Halfling empire without all the facial hair. I don't know who it was that came up with the seperate tasks and function for each race in the empire but it's a bit silly. Bugbears favor attacking from ambush as a race, so scouting would come naturally to them, just as it does to the goblins. Where the bugbear really shines though is what they can ambush. A goblin is too small to take down anything very big or in many numbers. A bugbear on the other hand can take down multiple opponents quite easily simply because of their impressive size. Because of this, it's not difficult to imagine mixed race scouting units in the empire's military, with bugbears and goblins working to overcome each other's shortfalls.
okaynowa 11-20-06, 10:25 PM	A phrase came to me today while I was musing on goblinoids: "Goblins, hands and feet. Bugbears, arms and legs. Hobgoblins, head and trunk." It occurred to me that it works well as a metaphor for societal roles, and (depending on your vision) a rule for artistic exaggeration.
Darth Syntax 11-21-06, 01:26 PM	That's the whole point. Goblins, Hobgoblins and Bugbears are all completely equal in that they had independant governments and kingdoms of their own before the empire so in the empire they would each be just as capable of any task. A goblinoid empire would be like building a unified Gnome, Dwarf and Halfling empire without all the facial hair. I don't know who it was that came up with the seperate tasks and function for each race in the empire but it's a bit silly. I never really saw them as having separate kingdoms, state or what have you, at least not with goblins and hobgoblins. I had assumed they had been living in the same regions and in the same cities for thousands of years before the rise of the empire, and at least among the Dharlukesh (the people that would be instrumental in the founding of the Empire), goblins and hobgoblins were considered to be two different expressions of 'goblinoidness' rather than as inherently separate peoples. This is carried over in the language as both groups could be referred to as gaolaan (which is roughly equivalent to 'person'). Bugbears are a different story however, being originally upland-pastoralists and considered to be somewhat uncouth, they were known as Boghun(-or) Barra meaning either 'mountain barbarian' or 'barbarian from the mountains'. They were eventually 'civilized' in the pre-imperial period and fully integrated into the culture by the time the empire arose. All of that said, I do agree with you concerning the generally 'cosmopolitan' character of the empire. If my system of castes has caused people to view the empire as having a strict separation based on species, for that I apologize. My intent was to create a profession-based caste system which had no intrinsic separation by species, but with some castes having higher representations of a given species due to quirks of history, aptitude for certain kinds of work, and temperament. All of which occurred after the system was introduced.
eehamburg 11-21-06, 03:21 PM	The vision of the empire presented within here is truly inspirational.
lordalm 11-21-06, 05:48 PM	Two things. 1) It came to me that there was a section either in the ECS or 5N that talked about the ruins left by the Dhakanni. They're all over the place, but like the citizen of rome who grew up next to the parathonon, its just another building.... 2) Was it not Keith Baker in the ECS that painted the tiered or caste system view to the Dhakanni originally?
goblin_pride 11-21-06, 06:51 PM	Two things. 1) It came to me that there was a section either in the ECS or 5N that talked about the ruins left by the Dhakanni. They're all over the place, but like the citizen of rome who grew up next to the parathonon, its just another building.... 2) Was it not Keith Baker in the ECS that painted the tiered or caste system view to the Dhakanni originally? Two minor problems. 1) the Parthenon is in Athens. 2) the ECS has more material on the modern goblinoids than the ancient, the reference to the actual Dhakaani is limited to one line that says they "bred goblins and bugbears as slaves and warriors" but it doesn't indicate what race filled each role. Unless that's a reference to the goblins and bugbears being utilize in a slave-soldier form similar to the mamluk societies like the Janisaries of medieval Turkey it doesn't stike me as workable. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From -37,000 YK the goblinoid kingdoms began to spread over Khorvaire and the empire came long after that. Goblins, hobgoblins and bugbears would each have their own kingdoms prior to the empire's rise and the initial formation involves more cooperation in my view of the empire. Others have expressed a feeling that the empire formed out of a knuckling-under of the other clans to one will. But to me that doesn't have the ability to form the unity to last 10,000 years. Without the esprit de corps the empire couldn't survive it's long reign, it would've torn itself apart at the seams long before the Daelkyr arrived. My own view of the empire was that the Dhakaani clan didn't actually control much territory at all, but rather received tribute in the form of taxes and soldiers from each of it's client-states and subordinate tribes. The emperor had only the power afforded him by the Grand Council that was originally formed as a form of redress of grievances, later developing into a grand imperial senate but retaining it's original name. Everything in the empire was done in the name of the Dhakaani emperor but enforced by the governors and generals appointed by the Grand Council. Autonomy would be the first rule of the empire, each client-state was free to exist as it pleased as long as it's tribute was on time and of appropriate value, and the people obeyed the few imperial laws that did exist. Local kings, chiefs, high priests or whatever they called themselves would be free to rule their own people as they wished as long as the peace was maintained, if not, the Imperial governor would instruct a general which side was to be supported and the other would be crushed immediately and without mercy to return the peace.
Thramzorean 11-22-06, 11:37 AM	There's a clear reference to the fact that the goblin empire came together under 6 leaders (rather than a single unifying leader) which might lead one to suspect that it was a little bit different from a standard 1 emperor + empire type set up. Given that it is still a huge area the empire covered, and presumeably a lower magic-tech level, than current Khorvaire (not dragonmark houses) a hexamvirate or loose cabal of nobles/tribe/clan leaders might be viable. The leaders unified a 'constitution' of say castes and laws, and say had a single bardic legislative to review and codify laws on an ongoing basis, but executive power was held by local lords, which would probably be the only feasible method. But this would be a reasonably stable system. The trick is getting the spiritual, legislative and executive branches separated under some unifying principle, which in this case would be the glories of goblinoid civilization/hedgemony.
lordalm 11-22-06, 01:05 PM	The one in Rome I was thinking about was called the Pantheon. My bad. The above post is quite on point. We assumed empire meant an emperor. But since the real world equivalant in land area would be ancient china or rome I would have to say that a one leader would have been logical.
lordalm 11-22-06, 01:09 PM	By the way is there anything out there from WoTC on the ecology of the goblinoids? I don't recall one per se in the MM. Reason being that Goblin Pride keeps referencing and Emperess instead of a Emperor (which with D&D no difference to stats based off sex) is probally viable, especially if no specific or fixed partners factor into breeding. Lines of rule would follow from the female side as you could with all certainty point kid and mom and say that one came from that one.
Darth Syntax 11-22-06, 04:33 PM	The empress thing might have its genesis in some of my description of the empire early on. I made the Imperial figure of the empire an Empress, and it's possible that this stuck in the thread.
goblin_pride 11-22-06, 07:02 PM	By the way is there anything out there from WoTC on the ecology of the goblinoids? I don't recall one per se in the MM. Reason being that Goblin Pride keeps referencing and Emperess instead of a Emperor (which with D&D no difference to stats based off sex) is probally viable, especially if no specific or fixed partners factor into breeding. Lines of rule would follow from the female side as you could with all certainty point kid and mom and say that one came from that one. The reason I use empress alot is that the clan of goblins I utilize as a source for PCs reveres the first empress, the uncrowned empress, the Duur'kala that first unified the six warring tribes. They invoke her name almost as if she was a goddess because in all their teachings and stories, she represents the spirit of cooperation that is the bedrock on which the empire was built. Mind you that's one clan of goblins that originated in the mountains around Kech Volaar and in the backstory their role in the empire was to to act as guards to the imperial relics and regalia. Hobgoblins protected the emperor and family, goblins protected the crown jewels and combination of the three races protected the palaces and imperial holdings.
goblin_pride 11-24-06, 07:19 PM	I never really saw them as having separate kingdoms, state or what have you, at least not with goblins and hobgoblins. I had assumed they had been living in the same regions and in the same cities for thousands of years before the rise of the empire, and at least among the Dharlukesh (the people that would be instrumental in the founding of the Empire), goblins and hobgoblins were considered to be two different expressions of 'goblinoidness' rather than as inherently separate peoples. This is carried over in the language as both groups could be referred to as gaolaan (which is roughly equivalent to 'person'). The problem is that in the canon, there's a reference in the timeline to the goblinoids forming into kingdoms starting at around -37,000 YK. I would imagine that a standard monster manual tribe wouldn't count towards that but if you take the clan structure I laid out so far, a tribe of multiple clans could be counted as a kingdom. War continues between these early kingdoms until the first empress, the uncrowned, brings peace and unity between the six great nations and the empire of the Dhakaan is founded. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- On the nature of the goblinoids, I'm rather torn, I usually think that the hobgoblins were at the beginning a taller form of goblin, rather than goblins being the weaker descendants of the hobgoblins. The constant infighting between the two races disappeared in the empire period because it was widely known and accepted that each had a value to the empire and each would benefit in the empire. The time after the fall would see goblin and hobgoblin clans struggling side-by-side to attempt to maintain their lives as they were during the empire but all the while slipping into the ages-old model of the bigger ruling the smaller. The barbaric result in all but the remnant Dhakaani clans is quite literally the description of the races in the monster manual. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- The only places you see the nobler aspects in the goblinoids are among the dhakaani clans that fought hard against outside influences to maintain the equality of the old empire when the barbarians were quite literally at the gates. One of the Kech Volaar's primary problems with the Kech Sharaat is that the latter are acting in a manner unthinkable in the old empire in that they're trying to unify the remnant through force. While Haruuc showed great promise in his unifying the hobgoblins and bugbears into throwing off the shackles during the war and creating the nation of Darguun, his kingdom since has fallen into the same form of barbarism as the rest of goblinoid society. The Kech Volaar might follow Haruuc's banner into war if the bugbear and goblin clans received under Haruuc the same respect they were afforded in the empire of old. Haruuc's government has representation of the hobgoblin clans but the bugbear and goblin clans are woefully underrepresented at the best and blatantly oppressed at the worst. Until such time as the government changes, the Dhakaani remnant will not follow it to war, much less in the "peace" that currently exists. The current "peace" is viewed among the Dhakaani as a stagnant breeding pool for the worst traits of the goblinoid people and more likely than not a dhakaani general will rise up and raze the city of Rhukaan Draal to trigger the civil war that Darguun is headed into. The hope would be that the goblinoids will expend all their energy in that war and be ready for the reestablishment of the empire in the country that is currently called Darguun. A sword cannot plow a field, a spear cannot build a road, an axe will not feed the children, a shield does not think and armor has no voice. All these things are the tools of the goblinoids that build the empire, they are not the empire's only recourse. The empire is strongest when the people know that it is through the empire they thrive. If the threat of violence drives their loyalty, you can expect treachery at the first sign of weakness. The might of the empire is in it's farmers, the strength of the empire is in it's schools, the wealth of the empire lines the pockets of the common people, for when these things are true, the empire lives in the hearts and minds of it's people and they will die to defend it.
goblin_pride 11-24-06, 10:47 PM	I, Yu'una of the Kech Volaar, was a young lad when first I came across this document from the court records of the middle age of the Empire of the Dhakaan. When it was first penned it consisted of the full record of the events surrounding the Rebellion of the Rhukaan'Tash and the subsequent revolt and return of the peace. Of particular note was the revolt within the army loyal to the empire during the siege of the Rhukaan Draal. This transcription is from a memory that is quite often faulty of late, but still the story of this one incident bears witness to the greatness of our once great empire. It is written by a common footsoldier and pertains to the circumstances of the revolt the night before the taking of that city. "My name is Garaan, Sergeant in the infantry of the Paluur legion of the empire. The night before the siege was rather subdued at first, with soldiers drawing their daily meal and trying not to think of the city that would most likely take our lives in the morning. I had finished my duties and settled in around one of the fires with my food as a goblin officer rode up on his wolf and asked me, 'how's the meal, brother?' It was poor, to be completely honest and I told him so. The troops under the quartermaster always ate better than the men of the field, it was a standard. Before I had time to think about it, he instructed all of us to follow him to the mess, because he was going to have words with the captain in charge about the state of the food. When we arrived at the mess, the young lieutenant, a scout, judging by the cut of his armor, promptly saluted the captain and began berating him. I'm not sure if I can remember all of what he said, but I will try. He started with, 'This food is intolerable, you would dare to send the soldiers of the empire to do the emperor's bidding and return this rebellious vassal with rumbling bellies?'. The captain muttered something about returning to his proper place and leave the diet of the troops to those who knew best, to which our lieutenant responded with, 'You may have the benefit of rank, but in the morning, when the trumpets sound and the men of this army are charging across the defense of those walls, I would expect that the emperor would be most pleased to know that his men were doing so with full bellies and proud hearts. The food, if it can be called such, that you've seen fit to feed these men isn't fit for goats and tribex. You, sir, are derelict in your duty and should be forced to eat this slop you think is fit for his majesty's soldiers. I would wager that our commander would be most pleased to see that our soldiers are receiving such lovingly prepared meals and that you've not wasted one bit of the sawdust in making their bread, nor one scrap of shoe leather in their stew. I am quite certain that the men would be more than happy to take that city in order to no longer eat the garbage that you dare to call food. You, sir, are a disgrace to the emperor's army and the people of this empire. I would order you killed by the men around me, but that would not make a suitable example of you. You I sentence to the worst punishment possible. You will live through tomorrow, you will live through every battle and siege you ever take part in. You will be protected by every man on the field so that your shame in the treatment of your brothers lives a long life and never leaves you.' As the cheering of the crowd that had grown died down, our lieutenant turned to one of the sergeants of the mess and said, 'I would get some real food to these men as quickly as possible, I'm in a mood to send someone to the end of a rope for dancing lessons tonight.' I watched as he strode off, proud and tall, knowing that every man present would remember that evening. We ate like kings that night, every man having his fill and the next day we took that city. I don't know if it was watching a simple lieutenant berate a senior officer on our behalf or the pride of being part of the empire that drove us forward that day, but even the dying wouldn't give up until the city was taken. I was called here to give this statement because our leiutenant is being accused of insubordination by that very captain he dressed-down. I can tell you without reservation that if not for that very action, the men wouldn't have taken that city. We would still be there, trying to breach the walls, suffering the slow death of soldiers on a siege line. The morale of the men needed his concern that night. We needed an officer that could motivate us over those walls. If he is to be punished for his actions, then hang me beside him. Hang all of the men of the Paluur legion as well, but leave that wretched Captain alive, his shame is his to bear for the rest of his life, and I hope it's a long one." -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The idea for this post came to me watching the HBO mini-series Band of Brothers. I was watching it and I thought about the very clan of goblins that I had created and specifically the volunteers within that clan that put the empire above family, clan and tribal affiliations. It made sense to me that they would stalk the camps of the legions on campaign trying to rally the men and raise the morale in hope that it would give the troops that extra push they needed to do the things they otherwise wouldn't be able to. These lone, unknown goblins would try to reinstill in the men the fire in their bellies to do their absolute best because the empire is relying on them. Moving like ghosts among the campfires of the armies the night before battles, never remembered for who they are but always for what they did, a nameless goblin that made certain the men remembered that as soldiers of the empire they could do anything.
eehamburg 11-25-06, 06:22 PM	the point of this thread to explore our ideas about the goblins... therefore, with that said ... it is important to remember that this is not canon and that we are free to use any ideas that we come up with and if in the process we come up with a unified idea or one that grows from some kernel built within the thread, then I think that we have done what we sought out to do. Thank you for your imagination.
goblin_pride 11-25-06, 09:55 PM	A brief note on organization within the military: I've been following an early Roman model in regard to the military, naming the legions after the cities around which they were raised. The legions would take the name of the city they came from as the legion's identity. An example would be the Paluur legion of Paluur Draal. For cities that levy additional legions for the empire a number would be added as in the Paluur III legion, denoting the third legion from the Draal of Paluur. Other naming conventions would exist, for example legions founded in tribute to heroes of the empire would bear the name of that hero and not the name of one of the great Draals. House troops, those legions formed from one clan or tribe would bear the name of the clan or tribe and be subject to the authority of the governor or general commanding the region in which they reside. When attached to a frontier legion as part of a campaign the house legions would be under the command of the governor-general and subject to the orders of the overall commander just as all other legions operating within that frontier. Most legions of House troops are auxiliaries, devoted to a particular aspect of military craft, such as the elite scout/cavalry of the Taarka'khesh. While working in conjunction with the other legions of the empire, they would maintain a seperate command structure on the field and take their orders from the overall commander in battle. House troops legions would follow roughly the same structure as the regular legions but with variance depending on their role.
goblin_pride 11-26-06, 01:49 AM	Home? All I can tell you of my home is that it lies three days ride from the city of the Kech Volaar. The goblins that founded my home were the descendants of Jataan the serene, grandson of Ghala'ar the silent, from whom we draw our name. Jataan founded the fortress bastion of Serenity to give himself a place far removed from the rigors of daily life in the Draal of the Volaar. Once he was a great general among the goblins of the Paluur legion but in his later years he sought the solitude of the mountain. The fortress bastion of Serenity rises mid-way up the slope of a mountain deep in the heart of the Seawall mountains. Ancestral home to many families of the Elo'khesh it stands silent guardian, watching the passes leading both into and out of the mountains. The city itself consists of seven tiers of terraced steps, with a 22' statue of Jataan in the heart of the garden atop the final tier. The tiers were built in such a way that each tier above would look out onto nothing but the gardens and fields of the tier below. The city itself vanishes the farther up one goes until reaching the garden atop the final tier. Standing in the shadow of Jataan, one can look out and see nothing but the terraced fields of the farming village that was there when Jataan first came to the valley he called Serenity. From the ground level at the base of the walls, a sheer wall, built of unmarked stone, rises forty feet before being broken by inset balconies and windows. Six gates open in this wall and the six halls within are named for the six warlords of the original Dhakaani tribes. Many of the stables and pens for the flocks of the sheperds are in the galleries adjoining these gates. The terraced fields rising up to the second tier are the fields of the farmers living underneath with a few buildings scattered liberally among them for the headmen of the farming communities of the lower tiers. many of the headmen of the lower tiers refuse the invitation to move up-tier because they would have to move inside, rather than occupying the place of honor on the surface side of the tier. At the fourth tier the surface changes from farm fields to forest. The ordered orchards of the third tier are replaced gradually with the seemingly wild growths of native oaks and pines from the other side of the valley. the soft slope of the first and second tiers are replaced by a sudden upswelling of the towering city. The balconies of the wealthy and commanders of the city garrisons line the walls here along with the places reserved for generals seeking solitude from a lifetime of war and governors seeking to follow Jataan's path. The sixth tier is place of honor, the heads of clans from all over the empire once came here to find comfort or to be close to the emperor on the rare times when he would visit. Many of the residences of the sixth tier sit empty, waiting for the return of clans that have long forgotten they have a place here or are long since dead. The mansions of the sixth tier are the most opulent of all the housing in the city and the craftsmen that tend to them constantly are the finest of the clan. There are but three residences on the seventh tier, one for the heir of Jataan, one for the Duur'kala of the Dhakaan and one for the Emperor. Weapons are prohibited on this tier except by direct permission of the most honored residents themselves. In the rare case that the Emperor was in attendance, even his guards stayed off the seventh tier to avoid offending his Imperial majesty by openly carrying weapons. All three sit empty for there is no Emperor, the Duur'kala, the uncrowned empress, is long since deceased and the heir to Jataan lives below in the Sixth tier out of respect until such time as a new Emperor ascends the throne. The gardens above the seventh tier are tended and manicured to be the most peaceful and serene places on the face of Eberron. Sitting in the shadow of Jataan, one can look out and see both sunrise and sunset, bear witness to the majesty of the unchanging mountains or look down and see the village below Jataan's perch as it was when he looked upon it himself so many millenia ago. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Founded by the goblins of the Elo'khesh, Serenity was intended as both a tribute to Jataan and a haven for the empreror deep in the Seawall mountains. It's defenses have never been tested, but it was built to withstand a siege of years. The lower tiers are capable of feeding more than the residents indefinately. If a standing army was to occupy the galleries of the lower tiers, it could hold out for decades. The gatehouses are built with a triple gate, meaning in order to breach them it would take battering down two interior gates while under fire from the defenders. This is a city of goblins, while there are many sections of the city built for the larger races, the vast majority of the city is built for the smaller of the goblinoids. Most of the areas built for the larger races are in the barracks of the lowest tier and the places of honor from the fourth tier up. Much of the dwelling spaces in the first, second and third tier are continued deep into the mountain, often cut directly into the bedrock. This was partially for defensive purposes, but also the tunneling was a source of much of the stone used to build the tiers. The statue at the highest part of the city was built from carving out the grand council hall between the sixth and seveth tier. In the cavernous hall, all of the clans have a single seat in a semi-circle facing a stone wall with the Emperor's throne in a balcony accessible from the seventh tier. The guards of the Elo'khesh will not allow weapons into the Grand hall under any circumstances. Any attempt to smuggle weapons will get the offender warned at the least or outright expelled. This hall is neutral, no blood has ever been shed within the Grand hall. The city sits mostly empty in the modern times due to the lack of visitors from the empire that no longer exists. 75% of the spaces are maintained but unoccupied. The goblins of the Elo'khesh are not openly xenophobic, they have many settlements in the other cities of Khorvaire, but Serenity is unknown beyond the goblinoids of the Dhakaani remnant and the few clans that know the mountain passes. Of the few visitors they do receive, the Taarka'khesh still occupy their mansion in the sixth tier and a sizable presence in the barracks' and stables of the first tier. The Sharaat'khesh have a monastery in the first tier and occupy their mansion in the sixth as well. Other goblin clans have a presence, but those are mostly in the lower tiers and few maintain an active presence in the sixth tier. The leaders of the Kech Volaar do come to Serenity but it is seldom and often not a long stay.
goblin_pride 11-26-06, 07:34 PM	We need more clans of modern goblinoids to draw from. We have the two tribes of the remnant, and two clans of goblins created by the Infernal Bovine to use in our creation of the ancient glories of the empire. We know from the canon that the two major tribes are composed of clans but they're unnamed as of yet. I've added one clan myself, I can only imagine everyone else has done the same in their games. So roll out you goblins and lets all use the resources we as a community have.
lordalm 11-26-06, 08:24 PM	Clan Jimmy: This goblin clan hails from the citydark of Sharn, those areas long abandoned by its rulers and "citizens." Venturing up to the higher levels to pilfer what they need. The clan began taking names revelant to thier professions as small time thieves and scavengers. Changing the clan name every few years and adopting new clothing when foraging above the old section they claimed as clan home. Such a life has served the clan well as it has grown over a hundered strong, while managing to stay out of the site of the established players in the citydark. However, the clan has lost its true name in the intervening years and splinter clans have formed. A growing turf war with the Prowlers and the Lockpick subclans has threatend to expose all to the greater powers of the citydark.
goblin_pride 11-26-06, 08:29 PM	Clan Jimmy: This goblin clan hails from the citydark of Sharn, those areas long abandoned by its rulers and "citizens." Venturing up to the higher levels to pilfer what they need. The clan began taking names revelant to thier professions as small time thieves and scavengers. Changing the clan name every few years and adopting new clothing when foraging above the old section they claimed as clan home. Such a life has served the clan well as it has grown over a hundered strong, while managing to stay out of the site of the established players in the citydark. However, the clan has lost its true name in the intervening years and splinter clans have formed. A growing turf war with the Prowlers and the Lockpick subclans has threatend to expose all to the greater powers of the citydark. Oooh, I gotta get meself back to Sharn on the double. I gots troops to recruit and a pool to draw from. Need to find goblin names for those clans though, something that sounds right proper and goblinish.
lordalm 11-26-06, 08:35 PM	Oooh, I gotta get meself back to Sharn on the double. I gots troops to recruit and a pool to draw from. Need to find goblin names for those clans though, something that sounds right proper and goblinish. Some how I get the feeling those clans' troubles just got worse.....:(
ArcTan 11-27-06, 04:43 AM	That's the whole point. Goblins, Hobgoblins and Bugbears are all completely equal in that they had independant governments and kingdoms of their own before the empire so in the empire they would each be just as capable of any task. A goblinoid empire would be like building a unified Gnome, Dwarf and Halfling empire without all the facial hair. I don't know who it was that came up with the seperate tasks and function for each race in the empire but it's a bit silly. Keith Baker came up with it, and I think it's far from silly. For my part, I'm annoyed at attempts to make Old Dhakaan PC by making it egalitarian and modern in its outlook. One of the things I *liked* about Old Dhakaan was the idea that it was an extremely Lawful society -- not evil, perhaps, but frighteningly restrictive and alien to the mindset of an ordinary human being. Humans are the chaotic, unrestrained mad race from the POV of a Dhakaani reclaimer, who remembers the absolute perfection and power of the Old Dhakaan state -- one that *should be* unrealistically stable and coherent from a human perspective, because it is, in fact, an alien kingdom run by alien beings who are very unlike humans in certain matters of basic psychology. One of the things I liked about Dhakaan was the implication that the state exerted such power over its subjects that it could, in fact, selectively breed the original proto-goblinoid species into separate castes who were *biologically selected for specific tasks*, so that, yes, goblins really were *created* to be a laboring underclass of sorts, and bugbears *created* to be the militaristic soldier ants, and hobgoblins *created* to be the elite leader race, and that no one objected to this as they might in a human society because the old Dhakaani, relative to humans, had a surplus of obedience and a deficit of individual initiative. Yes, they did in many ways practice slavery -- from a certain perspective everyone in the Empire was a slave -- but they did not mind this, because they are not, in fact, human beings and have a different set of priorities from ours. We're rapidly moving away from what makes Dhakaan interesting because it's different and inhuman and alien and strange to human eyes and instead turning toward ways to make Dhakaan a generic admirable imperial civilization -- and Dhakaan can and should be a lot more interesting than just Imperial China or Rome with funny facial features and skin colors. They're *not human* -- why run away from the things that make them interesting because their politics and history seem strange and *not human*? What I *like* about the goblinoids is the implication that things that are deeply natural for human beings -- the desire for social climbing and mixing, the belief in transcendent religion, etc. -- are unnatural additions to the goblinoid psyche that came about by infection, oppression and assimiliation from the Sarlonan settlers, and that there's something unsettingly alien about the Dhakaani culture -- and alien in the opposite way from the stereotypical "savage barbarian" nonsense, a culture far more rationalistic, cold and mechanistic -- yet functional -- than the Five Nations. And yes, that means I like the things that seem slightly wonky, like the ridiculously long 11,000-year lifespan of the empire, the genetic engineering of the three goblinoid subspecies for specific tasks, and so on. Attempts to make the goblinoids more "realistic" by making them more human and therefore more generic and playing up the idea that "Everyone's alike on the inside" -- which I find to be an awful mistake that makes me wonder why we bother to have fantasy races in the first place -- annoy me.
goblin_pride 11-27-06, 11:19 AM	For my part, I'm annoyed at attempts to make Old Dhakaan PC by making it egalitarian and modern in its outlook. One of the things I *liked* about Old Dhakaan was the idea that it was an extremely Lawful society -- not evil, perhaps, but frighteningly restrictive and alien to the mindset of an ordinary human being. Humans are the chaotic, unrestrained mad race from the POV of a Dhakaani reclaimer, who remembers the absolute perfection and power of the Old Dhakaan state -- one that *should be* unrealistically stable and coherent from a human perspective, because it is, in fact, an alien kingdom run by alien beings who are very unlike humans in certain matters of basic psychology. I started with a core idea that the goblinoids of today are a complete reversal of the Dhakaani era goblinoids, just as the giants today are nothing like their predecessors. Building on that idea I made the society more open for all the goblinoid races. I took pieces from different cultures in the real-world that would seem to fit and tried to make something that would still have some of that alien feel but was still understandable and perhaps even enviable by the game world's modern humans. I would like to read whatever source you have for Keith Baker's thoughts on the government of the Dhakaani, because I have yet to see anything more than an offhand reference to the empire, much less how it was run. The total canon on the Dhakaani empire is one sentence in the ECS and plenty of mentions of their ruins. I apologize if my blending of Native American, medieval Japanese, and Roman influences isn't to your liking. Feel free to post something that presents a different point of view, I'd be more than happy to read it and offer whatever constructive criticisms I could.
goblin_pride 11-27-06, 11:26 AM	Keith Baker came up with it, and I think it's far from silly. Oh, by the way, Keith Baker also came up with the timeline in the back of the book I was referring to in the post you qouted. It doesn't say the Dhakaani sprang up as a fully formed empire. They began as goblinoid kingdoms. The point I was making was that kingdoms existed for each of the goblinoid races and therefore they wouldn't be ethnic divergences after the formation of the empire. Why refer to to "goblinoid" kingdoms if the one race spawned the other two?
lordalm 11-27-06, 01:35 PM	I am going to have to say it again. The "races" of goblinoids existed pretty much as we know them before any kingdom existed let alone the empire.
gaerfindel 11-27-06, 03:33 PM	On the co-education of goblinoids: While seperate education of the three races makes some sense for race-preferred tasks, the bulk of Imperial schooling would be co-educational; teaching each race to trust and accept the other two as brothers. Recall that the Dakhaani concept of "clan" extends to all three races and seems to refer more to those who share the burdens of caring for others than those who share a blood lineage (tho' that's not unimportant). This gives us the somewhat odd, to human minds, vision of a hobgoblin bard instructing her class; a mix of gobs, hogobs, & bugbears. Classroom friendships develop accross racial lines, and teamwork & communal achievement of goals is stressed. Gur'aka had been called "big brother" for much of his life. The term was first given to him in the creche. He was the first bugbear to be born to the clan in a good number of years, and despite the recent influx of older and more worldly bugbears, he was still thought of as the clan's protector. He respected the words of the dirgesingers and took pride in his place as the "elder borther" to nearly every bugbear, goblin, & hobgoblin his age and younger. Even Sneaky Shu'arrat, the gobling headman and vetern of no fewer than ten campaigns in the human's Last War, lost as many contests as he won against Gur'aka when testing who could ambush the other first.
ArcTan 11-27-06, 06:02 PM	Oh, by the way, Keith Baker also came up with the timeline in the back of the book I was referring to in the post you qouted. It doesn't say the Dhakaani sprang up as a fully formed empire. They began as goblinoid kingdoms. The point I was making was that kingdoms existed for each of the goblinoid races and therefore they wouldn't be ethnic divergences after the formation of the empire. Why refer to to "goblinoid" kingdoms if the one race spawned the other two? Because hobgoblins are *themselves* a mutant subspecies of the original goblinoid race, akin to the nameless Forerunners of the githzerai and githyanki? In any case, it may just be an offhand remark, but the ECS does in fact say the Dhakaani "bred" the goblins and bugbears for their respective roles in the empire. Whether this refers to the empire we know as Dhakaan or even older kingdoms before the Empire is unknown, but it is a reference and I prefer to embrace rather than dismissing it. My main source for Keith Baker's interpretation of Dhakaan is here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040816a Which does, in fact, very strongly emphasize specific caste roles for each race. It's not the specifics of the ideas that I'm objecting to so much as it is what's seeming to be a growing wholesale rejection of one of the core ideas of Dhakaan -- an ingrained caste system with each race genetically engineered to specific tasks. This seems to go along with the idea of making the Dhakaani a more acceptable, more "believable", more friendly and human-like empire rather than the frighteningly alien entity they were originally presented as. (Admirable in many ways, yes, but still alien.) I agree that Old Dhakaan is very different from the Ghaal'dar, but I would peg that difference as the Ghaal'dar and Marguul relying on brute force, competition, and struggle to maintain their caste system instead of a caste system built on ingrained cultural values and central state planning -- i.e. a Chaotic rather than Lawful system. I do, however, see the idea of caste as central to what makes the goblinoid races goblinoid -- just as the elves by nature are linked to their very long lifespans and an obsession with transcending death, and humans are linked to individual free enterprise, adaptability and change.
ArcTan 11-27-06, 06:04 PM	I started with a core idea that the goblinoids of today are a complete reversal of the Dhakaani era goblinoids, just as the giants today are nothing like their predecessors. I think in general I don't like this idea. The goblinoids of today are debased, primitive, savage remnants of a once-great civilization, sure. That doesn't connote "absolute reversal" to me. Goblinoids of today are militaristic, arrogant, and live in a brutally restrictive society. Goblinoids of the past strike me as having done the same thing, if on a much more civilized, enlightened and high-tech scale. After all, the Giants *aren't* the opposite of their past selves. The Giants today may be brutish and savage, but they retain the same hubristic arrogance and sense of entitlement and utter lack of concern for other species that giants, in folklore and legend, have always had. Their culture has devolved but has *far* from veered to the exact opposite of what it once was -- as though the Giants of the past were a loving, pacifistic, kind and generous race.
goblin_pride 11-27-06, 09:16 PM	I think in general I don't like this idea. The goblinoids of today are debased, primitive, savage remnants of a once-great civilization, sure. That doesn't connote "absolute reversal" to me. Goblinoids of today are militaristic, arrogant, and live in a brutally restrictive society. Goblinoids of the past strike me as having done the same thing, if on a much more civilized, enlightened and high-tech scale. You remember the bit where if you don't like something, "change it or don't use it"? I think that applies here.
Darth Syntax 11-27-06, 11:50 PM	I agree that the Dhakaani should have an 'alien' feel to them, but I think it should be subtle, and creep up on one from odd angles rather than stand out in the open for all to see. Much of my musings on the empire have been directed to return such results. On why I reject the model of the clan system, with some general musings on the concept of family within the empire: *Imperial Scholar/Bureaucrat Hat on* The very concept of a clan is anathema to the good of the empire, for it breeds inferior and false loyalty. To hold those who, by accident, gave birth to you and to your ancestors, in high esteem without pausing to muse upon their accomplishments, their thoughts, and their actions is nothing but folly. Should we thank the seasons for changing, or the sun for rising? Why? They will do as they always have with or without our thanks. So it is with families and with clans, they will produce offspring out of habit, and therefore we owe no thanks, and no loyalty, to them. Rather we owe our thanks and our loyalty to those who, contrary to their own immediate gratification, have aided us. It is for this reason we owe or loyalty to our City, to our Profession (the more literal translation of the word generally rendered as caste) , and finally, to the Empire. The Empire receives no immediate benefit from providing us with its protection and its generosity. What good did the great roads do the empire when they were first built? Millions of aurrhun (the basic currency of the empire, backed by the purest of olive oil) were spent and for decades the debt remained. But, slowly, over the years, the wealth returned a thousand times a thousand fold, and it returns still. The same is true of the great aqueducts, the theatres, and the host of other boons the Empire has given us. The Empire cares little for us as we are now, it rejoices in what we will become. Therefore, it is right to offer willing loyalty to the Empire. To our professions too it is right and proper to owe loyalty, for they take us in all unformed, like clay from the earth, and they labor over us until we are finished; until we are useful. They give us the means by which we eat, so that we do not have to labor in the earth, becoming unclean by tilling the soil. From each of us alone out professions receive little, what good am I to the Office of the Architect? As myself, I am worth nothing, as a part of the whole, I am given purpose. And so to our city we likewise owe our freely-given loyalty. Like the Empire the City provides, without expecting immediate gratification, and like the Empire, it protects us. What good does it do the City to hold the great festivals, or the Operas? The barbarians do neither, and still their kingdoms endure. But the barbarian lives from day to day, not thinking of the long, slow turning of time, concerned only with the joy of the moment. So it is that their cities rise and fall, while ours stand, and grow. They are like mushrooms after a rain, we are to be as the trees. The City provides us with all our immediate needs, and ask only that we act to preserve it, and this is proper devotion. So I ask you again, 'what good does it do to hold your family, your clan, in high regard?' What purpose do they serve that is not better and more rightfully served by the City, by the Professions, or by the Empire? *end hat* Such is the beginning of my understanding of the concept of true loyalty in the Empire, it must be earned, and freely given. Loyalty due to blood ties is neither and is even considered to be unlucky in the Imperial tradition. This isn't to say that there is some kind of cultural hatred of families, but they are not considered to be socially relevant groups. This system was peculiar to the Dhakaani, and died out when the Empire fell. As far as I know, no one practices this form of social organization in the modern world. The belief that blood-loyalty was inferior and harmful was deeply ingrained in the Empire, to the point that it was considered both unethical and illegal to promote one's relatives (unless a case could be made for their merit above all others). The punishment for nepotism was death, which makes some sense as it was considered to be a form of treason. The only place where this was relaxed somewhat was in the office of the Empress, where blood-ascension did indeed happen, but was frowned upon. More often, the Empress would adopt her successor from among her advisors or members of the Imperial court. Adoption was quite common in the Empire, and was one of the usual ways of making known who you were grooming to be your successor. -- Well, more later I suppose.
ArcTan 11-28-06, 12:04 AM	You remember the bit where if you don't like something, "change it or don't use it"? I think that applies here. Sure, but if you're allowed to express your opinion of Keith's original writeup of the Dhakaan as silly, I'm allowed to express a dissenting opinion, ne?
ArcTan 11-28-06, 12:04 AM	I am going to have to say it again. The "races" of goblinoids existed pretty much as we know them before any kingdom existed let alone the empire. Source?
Archangel62 11-28-06, 01:20 AM	Well, if I could just point out my problem with the idea of breeder castes. First off it makes the goblins a very strange race, since apparently they managed to breed themselves, without the use of magic or any outside forces, into separate racial castes uniquely suited for different tasks. In the insect kingdom this works due to hormones and internal breeding capabilities. What this means is that apparently there is a Goblin Queen somewhere...mind you if you want to make the goblins reproduce like the stuff in Alien that would be amusing, probably a bad idea but amusing nontheless. I can argue a clan similar to feudal china, maybe even one with stronger bonds, but the idea of being bred into a caste seems rather silly with what we know about genetics.
ArcTan 11-28-06, 01:55 AM	Well, if I could just point out my problem with the idea of breeder castes. First off it makes the goblins a very strange race, since apparently they managed to breed themselves, without the use of magic or any outside forces, into separate racial castes uniquely suited for different tasks. In the insect kingdom this works due to hormones and internal breeding capabilities. What this means is that apparently there is a Goblin Queen somewhere...mind you if you want to make the goblins reproduce like the stuff in Alien that would be amusing, probably a bad idea but amusing nontheless. I can argue a clan similar to feudal china, maybe even one with stronger bonds, but the idea of being bred into a caste seems rather silly with what we know about genetics. Er, what are you talking about? ...We do this with dogs, cats, horses, and countless other animals. It's easy. You take individuals with certain traits and force them to breed with each other. The more strong animals breed with each other, the more likely their children are to be unusually strong. The more large animals breed with each other, the more likely their children are to be unusually strong. The more intelligent animals breed with each other (and this is controversial for humans, but it's demonstrably true with breeding dogs for "trainability") the more intelligent their children are. That's how genetics works. That's how evolution works. Evolution by natural selection happens over the long haul despite the random, uncaring nature of natural selection -- *artificial* selection performed by intelligent beings works far, far faster. It really doesn't take long, in biological time, for humans to make subspecies -- breeds -- of the same species, like _canis familiaris_, in ridiculously short periods of time -- a few millennia are all that separate a St. Bernard and a Chihuahua. You're confusing the different forms of morphological development of different castes within the same species in an anthill with the possibility of breeding separate, true-breeding races within a single race. Sure, if I posited that there literally exists, today, a single goblinoid race that requires the exposure of certain hormones in utero to cause an embryo that could otherwise become any of the three races to specialize as a single race, that would make them biologically quite different from humans. (But not *that* different. Humans do the same thing, after all -- it's the reason fetuses, which universally start out female, sometimes grow into males. You don't need to have a single queen laying eggs to have wildly different developmental tracks for embryos determined by hormones. Otherwise we'd all be born with a uterus.) However, a single species of goblinoids diverging, over time, into three physically distinct subspecies, which perhaps in time speciate to no longer be cross-fertile? Sheesh, that's not "weird", that's evolution. It's normal. And if the goblinoid civilization were powerfully centralized enough, they could easily enforce this upon the population by force. This requires no particular biological difference from humanity, just a *cultural* difference -- a race of people so Lawful in mindset they would accept this without the inevitable social rebellion, miscegenation, creole races and so on that would spoil this in real life. In real life, after all, certain 19th-century eugenicists proposed something not that different from this -- plans that were, of course, massively unworkable and that we with good reason see as massively racist and socially unjust, but what's true of us may not be true of the goblinoids. And though I say "genetic engineering" this isn't genetic engineering in the usual sense of the word, and requires no splicing of DNA -- just genetic engineering in the crudest sense of the word that the human race has had access to since the domestication of animals, the genetic engineering of selective breeding. "What we know about genetics" indicates that speciation of this kind in intelligent, technological species themselves (of which, after all, we have only one example, ourselves, so who knows) may not be *automatically* possible -- there are various complications that might pose a barrier to it -- but it certainly is possible. Hell, some have argued and continue to argue that it's inevitable (didn't you hear the news story about the guy positing an H.G. Wells-like speciation of humanity into neurotypical and autism-spectrum humans in the future?).
Archangel62 11-28-06, 02:56 AM	Er, what are you talking about? ...We do this with dogs, cats, horses, and countless other animals. It's easy. You take individuals with certain traits and force them to breed with each other. The more strong animals breed with each other, the more likely their children are to be unusually strong. The more large animals breed with each other, the more likely their children are to be unusually strong. The more intelligent animals breed with each other (and this is controversial for humans, but it's demonstrably true with breeding dogs for "trainability") the more intelligent their children are. That's how genetics works. That's how evolution works. Evolution by natural selection happens over the long haul despite the random, uncaring nature of natural selection -- *artificial* selection performed by intelligent beings works far, far faster. It really doesn't take long, in biological time, for humans to make subspecies -- breeds -- of the same species, like _canis familiaris_, in ridiculously short periods of time -- a few millennia are all that separate a St. Bernard and a Chihuahua. You're confusing the different forms of morphological development of different castes within the same species in an anthill with the possibility of breeding separate, true-breeding races within a single race. Sure, if I posited that there literally exists, today, a single goblinoid race that requires the exposure of certain hormones in utero to cause an embryo that could otherwise become any of the three races to specialize as a single race, that would make them biologically quite different from humans. (But not *that* different. Humans do the same thing, after all -- it's the reason fetuses, which universally start out female, sometimes grow into males. You don't need to have a single queen laying eggs to have wildly different developmental tracks for embryos determined by hormones. Otherwise we'd all be born with a uterus.) However, a single species of goblinoids diverging, over time, into three physically distinct subspecies, which perhaps in time speciate to no longer be cross-fertile? Sheesh, that's not "weird", that's evolution. It's normal. And if the goblinoid civilization were powerfully centralized enough, they could easily enforce this upon the population by force. This requires no particular biological difference from humanity, just a *cultural* difference -- a race of people so Lawful in mindset they would accept this without the inevitable social rebellion, miscegenation, creole races and so on that would spoil this in real life. In real life, after all, certain 19th-century eugenicists proposed something not that different from this -- plans that were, of course, massively unworkable and that we with good reason see as massively racist and socially unjust, but what's true of us may not be true of the goblinoids. And though I say "genetic engineering" this isn't genetic engineering in the usual sense of the word, and requires no splicing of DNA -- just genetic engineering in the crudest sense of the word that the human race has had access to since the domestication of animals, the genetic engineering of selective breeding. "What we know about genetics" indicates that speciation of this kind in intelligent, technological species themselves (of which, after all, we have only one example, ourselves, so who knows) may not be *automatically* possible -- there are various complications that might pose a barrier to it -- but it certainly is possible. Hell, some have argued and continue to argue that it's inevitable (didn't you hear the news story about the guy positing an H.G. Wells-like speciation of humanity into neurotypical and autism-spectrum humans in the future?). What I meant was that the given the extreme differences in racial traits and aptitudes of the different goblinoid races that the idea of breeding them specifically to that point, planning race A to be this way, Race B to be another and Race C to be this way, seems just a tad odd to me. Yes I know we breed horses, but if I can't suddenly produce a grumby if I keep mating clydesdales. Just saying that the idea of essentially breeding each race into its current existance seems strange, not to mention that there is no clear progenitor race that would show common ground with all the goblinoids.
goblin_pride 11-28-06, 09:13 AM	What I meant was that the given the extreme differences in racial traits and aptitudes of the different goblinoid races that the idea of breeding them specifically to that point, planning race A to be this way, Race B to be another and Race C to be this way, seems just a tad odd to me. Yes I know we breed horses, but if I can't suddenly produce a grumby if I keep mating clydesdales. Just saying that the idea of essentially breeding each race into its current existance seems strange, not to mention that there is no clear progenitor race that would show common ground with all the goblinoids. Not to mention the fact that the proposed "labor" species is the smallest and therefore not very useful as a laborer. By following Arctan's thinking, why weren't Bugbears simply bred to be more docile and goblins simply exterminated?
goblin_pride 11-28-06, 10:17 AM	Source? ECS pg 224, -38,000 under the heading The Age of Monsters When the ECS makes reference to the "goblinoid" kingdoms I would take that a suggestion that there are more than just one type. However, the only goblinoid race specifically mentioned is at -16,000 which mentions goblins, not the other two. By mentioning the goblins specifically does that mean that the others came from the goblins?
Alex_ 11-28-06, 12:28 PM	What I meant was that the given the extreme differences in racial traits and aptitudes of the different goblinoid races that the idea of breeding them specifically to that point, planning race A to be this way, Race B to be another and Race C to be this way, seems just a tad odd to me. That's not odd at all. Ponies and Clydesdales are VERY different, but share a common ancestor from only a few thousand years ago. They have very different appearances, temperments, and capabilities. But nobody a couple thousand years ago foresaw the existance of Ponies and Clydesdales as we have today. All they knew at the time is that they were breeding smaller horses and larger horses with certain characteristics. Yes I know we breed horses, but if I can't suddenly produce a grumby if I keep mating clydesdales. Just saying that the idea of essentially breeding each race into its current existance seems strange.... No you don't "suddenly" get a Grumby (which I assume is a breed of horse?). However, if you choose to only breed Clydesdale to that show particular non-Clydsdale traits, you will, however, get something that is not very much like a Clydesdale. If you breed only Clydesdales that have traits closer to a Grumby than other Clydesdales, over time you will come up with an organism very much like a Grumby. This sort of practices is in fact how Clydesdales came to be. There was no horse breed like them until aseveral hundred years ago, when people in Europe decided to start breeding other particular horses that were big and strong for use as heavy draft animals. They take those offspring, and find the ones with desirable traits, and breed them. Continue for a while, and eventually you get what is considered to be a Clydesdale. And the same thing was done to get us Shetland Ponies. ... not to mention that there is no clear progenitor race that would show common ground with all the goblinoids. Species and breeds go extinct. The species or breeds they spawned might still go on, but the progenitor can die out. But Goblinoids do have things in common with each other thay have in common with no other races: Long gangly limbs, short yellow-brownish hair, pug noses, canine teeth, lupine ears, and a penchant for sneaking. Even without understanding of genetics, it would appear that they share a common ancestor. What exactly it was like is unknown. Not to mention the fact that the proposed "labor" species is the smallest and therefore not very useful as a laborer. By following Arctan's thinking, why weren't Bugbears simply bred to be more docile and goblins simply exterminated? They don't have to be big to be laborers. Halflings and Gnomes (both small) are supposed to be very hard working and industrious races, often serving as laborers and menial workers in many societies. In Eberron, Goblins in cities are often slaves and workers, and nobody ever seems to complain about their lack of apptitude. Goblins could have been craftsmen, farmers, animal handlers, or filled other occupations. In situations where one Goblin wasn't enough, you could have gotten 2 or more together to do it... which brings up a good reason why Goblins were intentionally bred smaller. Not every task requires something the size of a Bugbear or Hobgoblin. Those races eat more, take up more space, and take longer to mature. Goblins, as are most smaller animals, eat less, take up less space, and mature quickly, so they can provide a more stable manpower force with less relative upkeep. If a certain number of Goblins can't finish a project that a single Hobgoblin or Bugbear could, just add more Goblins. And since they have the advantage of numbers, it's best if Goblins are bred to be docile, cowardly, and less capable in a straight-up fight than the Bigger Goblin races in the possible event of an uprising. Bugbears could have been bred for strength, in all its applications: war (heavy weapons) and peace (heavy labor). They could supplement the Goblin numbers by bringing in an element of quality any time the Goblins' quantity simply wasn't cutting it. However, you don't need them for ALL applications. You don't exactly need a Bugbear's strength and endurance to raise pigs and chickens, make nails, pick grain, or thatch a roof. And now we have a reason for using both. When the ECS makes reference to the "goblinoid" kingdoms I would take that a suggestion that there are more than just one type. However, the only goblinoid race specifically mentioned is at -16,000 which mentions goblins, not the other two. By mentioning the goblins specifically does that mean that the others came from the goblins? Fairly sure "Goblins" here refers collectively to the goblinoid races, and not just the smaller varieties as we know them today. Not that it would be impossible for the smaller variety to be very similar to the earliest kinds. There is also an earlier reference to the first Goblin Kingdom forming in what is now Breland/Darguun around 38,000. It would seem that there was a Goblin Kingdom that grew, splintered (or spawned others), and was then reunited under the Dhakaani Empire before splitting up again. ........................................ ........................................ ....................... I'd have to say I'm with Arc Tan here. I too favor the idea of the Goblinoids as leaning towards a way of thinking more unlike the other races. There are enough humans and human-like races already. Adding creatures that aren't just imitations of certain human stereotypes in a different skin is refreshing and adds morechances for unique roleplaying and dicoveries. While giving them some elements of certain real world cultures is cool (I love the South American-ish Giants and indo/Arabic-ish Gnomes), I don't think it should restrain what they can be.
gaerfindel 11-28-06, 12:47 PM	I'd have to say I'm with Arc Tan here. I too favor the idea of the Goblinoids as leaning towards a way of thinking more unlike the other races. There are enough humans and human-like races already. Adding creatures that aren't just imitations of certain human stereotypes in a different skin is refreshing and adds morechances for unique roleplaying and dicoveries. While giving them some elements of certain real world cultures is cool (I love the South American-ish Giants and indo/Arabic-ish Gnomes), I don't think it should restrain what they can be. And in proving (or disproving) this idea, you have the perfect motive for a Morgrave or Wynarn scholar to go adventuring!
gaerfindel 11-28-06, 12:52 PM	The very concept of a clan is anathema to the good of the empire, for it breeds inferior and false loyalty. To hold those who, by accident, gave birth to you and to your ancestors, in high esteem without pausing to muse upon their accomplishments, their thoughts, and their actions is nothing but folly. Which goes to my theory that the three castes were educated together, the better to foster brotherhood & loyalty to the Empire.
Darth Syntax 11-28-06, 02:05 PM	On the caste system (revised and updated, with some new musings and all manner of other junk I assume) To divide the whole of imperial society into three castes would be foolish and needlessly wasteful. Further, to base these castes on the species of the Empire would be akin to shooting yourself in the foot. What would you do with a hobgoblin with no talent for speech, leadership and the like, but who possesses an analytical mind, and a talent for organizing vast stores of data? Sending them off to fight or having them manage the affairs of state would probably be a very bad idea, but having them serve in the bureaucracy as an economist or some such thing would be the 'correct' thing to do. The same could be said for the introspective bugbear, the persuasive goblin, and host of others. This line of thinking has lead me to the inevitable conclusion of what could be called 'the dynamic caste system.' I have no idea exactly how many castes and subcastes there were in the empire, but I outlines some of the major ones earlier in the thread, so I'll not bore us all to tears by writing on them again. In the Imperial system, caste was originally assigned by profession and by region during the early history of the Empire. The rural population of what is now southern Thrane was generally grouped as 'farmer caste, specializing in the growing of corn and olives' as these were the main crops of the region. In the cities, most of the natives were assigned to the 'laborer caste', the 'artisan caste' or the 'merchant caste'. These castes had little if anything to do with specific species, although the thranish olive farmers tended to be goblins simply because they were the majority population in the region. The same can be said for the caste of husbandmen (herders, animal breeders etc) from around the Black Caps, who where mostly bug bears. Whatever caste you originally belonged to was determined by the caste of your mother. If I were born to a member of the bardic caste, I would begin my life as a member of that caste with all the rights and restrictions that such a position entails. However, caste assignment was not necessarily permanent, and there was a whole system of assessment in place to make sure that every member of society was in their proper (which is understood to mean the most useful) place. Every year or so the assessors of the Gaoltaaj (the internal auditors of the empire) would travel the length and breadth of the Empire, in groups of nine so as to make bribery difficult, assessing all children between the ages of 5 and 8 (regardless of species), if what they saw in these children was not in accordance with their birth-caste they would re-assign them to a more appropriate caste. This could mean that a particularly bright child of an olive farmer might be given over to the Civil Service and educated to become a bureaucrat or an imperial alchemist. Likewise, a member of the bardic caste who could neither sing, nor tell stories (which by 8 they were supposed to be well on their way to this) might be reassigned to the merchant class, or even lower on the scale should the accessors deem it proper. In some cases, children (usually males) who showed both intelligence and good physical attributes (being acrobatic, swift, and generally dexterous) were taken to be trained as Dazhutraan, the elite imperial slave-soldiers. This system was simply accepted, as it was for the greater good, the proper running of the Empire. On Caste, Land Ownership and Property Rights Generally speaking, when we think of the correlation of property rights and land ownership with social status, we tend to assume more social status = more property rights. This was not the case in the Empire as owning land was considered to be uncouth, barbaric, and low-status. Farmers own land, not bards, civil servants, and soldiers. As a result, the higher classes were not allowed to own property, and instead rented it from the Empire or from the lower classes. The Empire itself was the largest owner of land, which was understood to be a necessary evil, as only the Empire had the infrastructure and wealth to administer such vast holdings. -- Well enough from me for a while.
lordalm 11-28-06, 02:08 PM	Source? No source and no inference/source to "genetic breeding either."
lordalm 11-28-06, 02:20 PM	Clydsdales were bred for war. They were the heavy cavalry mount used by knights in thier full armor. Armor I might add that requried them to be lowered on the horse with a winch because it was too heavy for them to climb into the saddle. Draft animals was what became of them after there was no longer any use for them as calvary. Advent of firearms saw a switch back to the faster smaller horses that make up the majority of the species. Of course now a days all horses are good for is glue and french quisine.
lordalm 11-28-06, 02:23 PM	MM4 puts out a new Hobgoblin that is supposed to be the ancient ansestor. So if you all want to keep putting forth the breeding progrom, thats probally your source.
goblin_pride 11-28-06, 02:27 PM	In some cases, children (usually males) who showed both intelligence and good physical attributes (being acrobatic, swift, and generally dexterous) were taken to be trained as Dazhutraan, the elite imperial slave-soldiers. This is quite similar to what I was thinking. The modern clans are a derivative of these societies of slave-soldiers, with each having a distinctive sub-culture within the empire but a loyalty to the empire being first and foremost. A member of one of the slave-soldier societies would take the name of the society as both a clan name and a personal surname unless the society had additional surnames to denote rank within the society. As tools of the emperor, they would be trained in civilian occupations as well as weapons and tactics in order to smooth the transition to Imperial control of newly conquered territories. Very much indeed like the mameluks and Jannisaries of the middle east. Training in the military arts and the civilian occupations necessary to a standing army served the societies well as the empire crumbled around them. The attempt to embody the perfect Dhakaani soldier preserved much of the culture during the long years in hiding as well as the trades and crafts. Philosophy, art and literature survived among the remains of the empire due to this drive to be able to serve the empire intellectually as well as physically. As time progressed the slave-soldiers began repopulating the ancient bastions now left almost empty due to losses against the Daelkyr and in some cases other goblinoids. Generations of goblinoids born to the slave-soldiers were given clan names to differentiate them from the soldier-slave society struggling to maintain it's traditions without the benefit of it's Empire to serve. Over time, many clans would come from the birth of the soldier-slaves and grow into a sizable breeding pool for the societies to recruit from.
lordalm 11-28-06, 02:28 PM	Another bee for your bonnets. Since there is no indication of where all the races that "evolved" after the demon/dragon war got thier start. Its possible that the 3 goblin races were the creation of one of the 2 primaries mention. IE: cannon fodder.
goblin_pride 11-28-06, 03:03 PM	Generally speaking, when we think of the correlation of property rights and land ownership with social status, we tend to assume more social status = more property rights. This was not the case in the Empire as owning land was considered to be uncouth, barbaric, and low-status. Farmers own land, not bards, civil servants, and soldiers. As a result, the higher classes were not allowed to own property, and instead rented it from the Empire or from the lower classes. The Empire itself was the largest owner of land, which was understood to be a necessary evil, as only the Empire had the infrastructure and wealth to administer such vast holdings. I had a slightly different angle on this. The Empire owned all the land and a farmer worked the emperor's land and received 3/5 of the harvest as payment for his labors. Any sons they bore could petition the crown's agents for grants to farm additional fields on reaching adulthood.
a_psh 11-28-06, 05:13 PM	Clydsdales were bred for war.IIRC, Clydesdales originated from a mixture of English and Flemish warhorses with local Scottish work animals, but the Clydesdale itself was never a warhorse.
Alex_ 11-28-06, 05:15 PM	Clydsdales were bred for war. They were the heavy cavalry mount used by knights in thier full armor. Armor I might add that requried them to be lowered on the horse with a winch because it was too heavy for them to climb into the saddle. Draft animals was what became of them after there was no longer any use for them as calvary. Advent of firearms saw a switch back to the faster smaller horses that make up the majority of the species. The forerunners of Clydesdales were bred for warfare and later used as heavy draft animals. Clydesdales themselves were specifically bred from those horses (and others) to serve specifically as heavy draft horses. Of course now a days all horses are good for is glue and french quisine. My neighbor makes good use of them raising cattle. To divide the whole of imperial society into three castes would be foolish and needlessly wasteful. Further, to base these castes on the species of the Empire would be akin to shooting yourself in the foot. [quote] For humans, yes. There are many organisms in which class based systems, with morphologically varied individuals filling specific roles works well enough for them to have practiced it unchanged for millions of years. [quote] What would you do with a hobgoblin with no talent for speech, leadership and the like, but who possesses an analytical mind, and a talent for organizing vast stores of data? Sending them off to fight or having them manage the affairs of state would probably be a very bad idea, but having them serve in the bureaucracy as an economist or some such thing would be the 'correct' thing to do. The same could be said for the introspective bugbear, the persuasive goblin, and host of others. This line of thinking has lead me to the inevitable conclusion of what could be called 'the dynamic caste system.' I don't think anyone pushing the concept of a caste system envisioned something THIS restrictive. In this instance, your race determines your options and inclinations towards a particular occupation, not the occupation of your parent(s). What I was thinking of was more like... Hobgoblins- Brains Bugbears- Brawn Goblins- Spirit/Numbers This in no way precludes the existence of- say a military- with mixed races, although the goblins are most likely to be the frontline troops, bugbears the shock troopers, and Hobgoblins as highly trained and more autonomous units. Even then, those are a mere handful of the jobs in the military. Generals, cooks, animals handlers, logistics, transportation, etc all have their own jobs, in which all the Goblinoid races have a place. In a peaceful setting, like say a government building, Hobgoblins are the leaders and administrators, Goblins are their secretaries, paiges, and attendants, while Bugbears serve as the royal guard, or the arm of law enforcement . If a Hobgoblin is a better accountant than a speaker, they become an accountant, which is still a position with much authority and responsibility, especially compared to the other castes. The Bugbear can be introspective and still be a soldier or a hard laborer. People in the military or blue-collar jobs can still enjoy philosophy, art, and poetry. The influential Goblin can still find himself in a job as a craftsman or farmer. That alone won't be enough to make him head of state though. Race in this instance wouldn't dictate the exact occupation you have, but would place limitations on what you could or couldn't do. The Goblins could care less. Just because a Hobgoblin isn't as good a speaker as others, he still feels an urge to be in higher positions and doesn't want to live as a farmer. The Bugbear may like philosophy, but that doesn't mean they don't also enjoy using their hands, or that they want to be a leader. Just because a Goblin is influential doesn't mean they don't know their place and that they actually want to be something else. If a Goblin simply cannot bear to live such a life, they leave, get driven off, or are killed. This is VERY different from how humans think and how a human society could function, and that's the general idea. It's supposed to be different from humans. Goblins aren't Humans. I also think that would be a great explanation for why Goblinoids seem to be so much at odds with the other races. Individually, or in smaller numbers of one or the other, the races can coexist, but as a whole, Goblin social behavior operates on a level so radically different from Humans and the other races, that they can never be fully integrated, and these fundamental differences are what leads to many conflicts. ........................................ ........................................ .................... On a different note, I'm really digging the idea of the modern clans/tribes existing as the remnants of old Dhakaani organizations and social institutions. EDIT: Being a part of a caste society doesn't mean you can't have hobbies or a personal life either. Spend all day working in the fields, training for war, or legislating, then go drink some ale, play some party games, and listen to music.
Darth Syntax 11-28-06, 05:48 PM	Of the three sorts of goblinoids, I generally had this breakdown when one looks beyond the caste system. Goblins: the brain of the empire, they dominate the civil service, they are the thinkers. Hobgoblins: the voice of the empire. As a general rule hobgoblins are better 'front-men' than the others, so they often end up as the pubic face of things. Bug Bears: the spine of the empire. it is they who do most of labor, they may not have designed the roads, but they built them. -- All that said, the goblinoids are distinct species and cannot function as a 'hive'. Rather they must function like a great clock, and this is precisely what Dhakaani society was: from the very beginning the Empire was an engineered, artificial society, an ideal state rather than an organic outgrowth of pre-Dhakaani society. Everything was carefully planed and controlled to maximize internal harmony and decrease 'barbarism'. The founders of the Empire had the will, and the means to radically change the nature of society, breaking away from most of the ancient and traditional practices and setting up a system unlike any that had come before it. The Empire is more akin to a realization of Plato's Republic with elements of the Ottoman empire and Ming China (as we imagine them to be, rather than as they were) than to any natural state. This artificiality was key to the success of the Empire, but it is also the reason it fell so completely. When the Civil Service and the rest of the government collapsed after the Daelkyr wars, there was no one to maintain the system. the clockmakers had all gone. In the current, modern, world of Eberron the closest thing to the Empire would be Reidra, save for the all important fact that the empire was ruled by mortals.
a_psh 11-28-06, 08:50 PM	Race in this instance wouldn't dictate the exact occupation you have, but would place limitations on what you could or couldn't do.Lots of societies have worked this way for a long time, too. It's not like any ol' serf could stop and say "Farming sucks" and go off and be a noble instead. He had some outs, potentially, but the station he was born into would always have a very powerful affect on his life, even determining what kind of path he could follow to try to escape it. So it's really not all that unthinkable, especially for a non-human society, that being born into a specific race would place similar limitations upon you. Especially for a society with a rigid and regimented mindset about these things. (Well, in a lot of human societies, being born into a specific race placed those kinds of limitations on you, too.)
ArcTan 11-29-06, 12:01 AM	What I meant was that the given the extreme differences in racial traits and aptitudes of the different goblinoid races that the idea of breeding them specifically to that point, planning race A to be this way, Race B to be another and Race C to be this way, seems just a tad odd to me. Of course it's odd. That's the point. It's a fantasy world and contains things that in real history would be bizarre and weird. Keith has said in threads on these boards that part of his conception for the Dhakaani was that they were far more Lawful a society than humans would find natural. Keep in mind that, for what it's worth, we're talking about an empire that canonically existed for 11,000 years, which is far longer than recorded human history, and that this empire, for most of its existence, had access to magical technology that outstrips what we see in modern Eberron in many ways, and probably therefore a degree of scientific understanding of biology and genetics far beyond a stereotypical quasi-medieval fantasy kingdom. (Regardless of whether or not magitech "genetic engineering" was ever actually used to affect the breeding process.) Yes I know we breed horses, but if I can't suddenly produce a grumby if I keep mating clydesdales. Just saying that the idea of essentially breeding each race into its current existance seems strange, not to mention that there is no clear progenitor race that would show common ground with all the goblinoids. Actually, you *can*, over a very long period of time, produce a Shetland pony from a race of Clydesdales, by repeatedly taking the smallest Clydesdales and making them mate with each other, building up the alleles for small size and taking advantage of any random mutations in favor of smallness in the population. That's how we *got* Clydesdales and Shetland ponies in the first place. This is still demonstrating a whole lot of ignorance about how evolution works. The *point* of evolution, natural or artificial, is that with a given pool of alleles in a population you can breed for quite extreme concentrations of traits if you're careful enough about sifting through for the best breeding pairs. Just like you don't need a single "progenitor" race -- the way evolution works is that if you take a single progenitor race and apply pressures to it in various different ways, the *whole population* shifts according to those pressures. Over biological timescales, no population remains static and unevolved -- everything evolves into something different over time. There are no remaining examples of any species identical to the original species that gave birth to Cro-Magnons and Neanderthals, because that species passed out of existence -- it evolved, and the path of evolution it took happened to lead down two (or more) branches. (That said, I don't consider it unlikely that goblins are the race closest to baseline for the goblinoid races, and that hobgoblins and bugbears are the equivalent of breeding humans for giantism. It's built into the name of "goblins" and "hobgoblins", where hobgoblins have a prefix appended to them that apparently means something.)
ArcTan 11-29-06, 12:07 AM	Not to mention the fact that the proposed "labor" species is the smallest and therefore not very useful as a laborer. By following Arctan's thinking, why weren't Bugbears simply bred to be more docile and goblins simply exterminated? Physical strength means a lot less once your society reaches a certain level of technology. Remember the Morlocks from The Time Machine? If *we* were to split off into an aristocratic and laboring species, our laborers would probably be selected for manual dexterity and quickness over brute strength -- makes them far more useful in maquiladoras and the other sorts of environments where such humans would be useful. Not that the species have to be perfectly optimized for the tasks they were best suited for. If you assume there *was* an original species similar to goblins, and that the goblinoids we see now were specialized variants of them, it may be that what we now see are optimized limits to how far you can push the goblin genome. We've been breeding horses for a long time, but we still haven't bred a horse that has eight legs and can fly, much as some Norse peoples would've liked one. We have the problem that it's really hard to breed a dog for great strength and aggression without giving it serious problems with pattern recognition and obedience (the pit bull problem) -- if bugbears are the result of maximizing the goblinoid frame's potential for size and strength by greatly upping their equivalent of HGH and testosterone and, as a result, giving them permanent roid rage, that might be why they became a soldier caste. Etc. The theory actually makes more sense if you make the assumption that makes more sense than assuming that goblinoids had infinite magical power to reshape the subraces any way they desired -- that, as in real life, there are natural limits to what you can do with a certain set of genes. Natural breeding will never give you *everything* you want, and may impose certain tradeoffs -- the hormones for strength also influence aggression, a larger body requires a much longer maturation rate (hence the vast disparity in goblin and hobgoblin breeding cycles), etc.
ArcTan 11-29-06, 12:10 AM	No source and no inference/source to "genetic breeding either." Er, the ECS quotation (don't have the book on me) about how the Dhakaani "bred the goblins and bugbears as laborers and warriors", actually, along with repeated references to that by Keith Baker on these boards. On the other hand, the flat-out statement that goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears all existed *exactly* as they do now before the formation of Dhakaan seems to be the result of reading a particular meaning into the word "goblinoid" that I don't at all support. If there's a reference to "humanoid" races existing somewhere, I see that as a reference to there being races with Type: Humanoid there, not proof that all the humanoid races in the PHB existed in that place and time. And, if there's a reference to the "gith" when discussing an ancient event in the illithid empire, I assume that they're using that word to mean a species that fits into the *same category* as the modern githyanki and githzerai, including a possible Forerunner species of both. Just because *nowadays* "gith" means the specific races, githyanki and githzerai, doesn't mean that's all it can mean.
ArcTan 11-29-06, 12:11 AM	ECS pg 224, -38,000 under the heading The Age of Monsters When the ECS makes reference to the "goblinoid" kingdoms I would take that a suggestion that there are more than just one type. However, the only goblinoid race specifically mentioned is at -16,000 which mentions goblins, not the other two. By mentioning the goblins specifically does that mean that the others came from the goblins? It's a possibility. The goblins seem in many ways less optimized than the others, and they're certainly *far* more numerous, which makes it far more likely that they're the mainline thread of their species' evolution and the hobs and bugbears are offshoots of them than vice versa.
ArcTan 11-29-06, 12:21 AM	On the caste system (revised and updated, with some new musings and all manner of other junk I assume) To divide the whole of imperial society into three castes would be foolish and needlessly wasteful. Further, to base these castes on the species of the Empire would be akin to shooting yourself in the foot. ...It would be a social injustice in many ways, sure, and in that way inefficient, but so what? Every society in history has had social injustices and inefficiencies born of them. Why does the Empire of Dhakaan have to be *perfectly* efficient in order to be a rational society? What would you do with a hobgoblin with no talent for speech, leadership and the like, but who possesses an analytical mind, and a talent for organizing vast stores of data? Sending them off to fight or having them manage the affairs of state would probably be a very bad idea, but having them serve in the bureaucracy as an economist or some such thing would be the 'correct' thing to do. The same could be said for the introspective bugbear, the persuasive goblin, and host of others. The point of purposely breeding people into racial subcategories would be to drastically reduce this possibility. It would be to try to sift out all the genes that make for good leaders, good workers, good soldiers, etc. into distinct groups of the population. That's the *reason* for the races in the first place. You're reading it backwards, from human assumptions -- that the races exist as the product of random chance, and so making stereotypical assumptions based on guesswork about what the differences between the races actually are is irrational bigotry that can lead to nothing good. But that *doesn't hold* if you know how the genetics behind the races work, and you created the races in the first place to perform different tasks. This is what 19th-century eugenicists thought they could do -- and we now think they were wrong and tunnelvisioned, but later generations may prove that their problem was merely that they had dreams too big and knowledge too little. Brave New World, with its Alphas and Betas and Gammas, may yet happen -- I see no inherent reason why a society that knew its genetics well enough couldn't do it. Yes, this system is inefficient and will make mistakes -- but, at least from one point of view, it'll make *fewer* mistakes than any other. The problem is that *every* society has to sort people somehow -- it has to sort out the competent from the incompetent, the leaders from the followers, the scientists from the artists, etc. And our society, arguably, is massively, ridiculously inefficient at doing so. Tons of potentially great leaders fall through the cracks because of insufficient education, because of the whims of the market, because of personal grudges and so on. Tons of bad businessmen get to run their own businesses thanks to lucky breaks. The system is riddled with holes, or so it seems to someone who wants to maximize efficiency. Any system can be gamed. A meritocracy based on testing has potential, but look at how it actually worked in ancient China -- cronyism and corruption continued unabated. Test results can be faked or skewed. Survey data can be corrupted. The free market is full of mathematical failures. If you could control people's genes, and if you *knew* that a certain bloodline had far more potential for genius than another, then you've got a huge leg up on the sorting problem. Arguably, *even if* this program has a comparable degree of error than, say, a meritocratic testing program, it's *still more efficient*, because once the bloodlines are in place and known, identifying which bloodline is which is far less costly in time and resources than the testing program, and you're wasting far less bureaucracy to perform a substantially similar sorting task. Yes, this means the occasional mutant individual, the occasional sport, the occasional Bernard Marx slips through the cracks, but as a central planner caring only about the good of the State, what's that to you? It's still arguably a system that's fairer than the massive randomness masquerading as free will that rules in the city of Sharn.
ArcTan 11-29-06, 12:39 AM	This in no way precludes the existence of- say a military- with mixed races, although the goblins are most likely to be the frontline troops, bugbears the shock troopers, and Hobgoblins as highly trained and more autonomous units. Even then, those are a mere handful of the jobs in the military. Generals, cooks, animals handlers, logistics, transportation, etc all have their own jobs, in which all the Goblinoid races have a place. Oh, sure. Keith himself says that a Dhakaani warband always has members of all three races, and all three races believe that they have their specific role to play -- that only their race can play -- in any particular task (military or civilian), and are taught to take pride in it. Hobgoblins in general form the officer corps, bugbears the heavy troops, and goblins the light infantry and scouts, though variations on all these exist. (The shaarat'kesh goblin assassins, for instance, or the hobgoblin frontline chain troopers.) I never meant to imply that there are *only* three castes, and that their roles are actually as simple as "Hobgoblins bosses, goblins drudges, bugbears thugs". In fact I agree with Darth Syntax that a civilization as developed as the Dhakaani Empire *must* have had an intricately complex caste system, with many other contributing factors to caste assignment besides race, in place. There may even have been a system for identifying sports and mutations -- hobs, goblins and bugbears who didn't fit their assigned places -- and "dealing with them" somehow, though this could range from being somewhat warm and fuzzy and letting them stick out as sore thumbs in the "wrong" position to shoving them in Brave New World-style "islands" to coldly culling them from the herd. Whatever happened, though, I don't think being atypical for your race would be a pleasant or expected or common experience in Dhakaan. Race in this instance wouldn't dictate the exact occupation you have, but would place limitations on what you could or couldn't do. The Goblins could care less. Just because a Hobgoblin isn't as good a speaker as others, he still feels an urge to be in higher positions and doesn't want to live as a farmer. The Bugbear may like philosophy, but that doesn't mean they don't also enjoy using their hands, or that they want to be a leader. Just because a Goblin is influential doesn't mean they don't know their place and that they actually want to be something else. If a Goblin simply cannot bear to live such a life, they leave, get driven off, or are killed. This is VERY different from how humans think and how a human society could function, and that's the general idea. It's supposed to be different from humans. Goblins aren't Humans. Exactly. This is what I keep hitting on. I also think that would be a great explanation for why Goblinoids seem to be so much at odds with the other races. Individually, or in smaller numbers of one or the other, the races can coexist, but as a whole, Goblin social behavior operates on a level so radically different from Humans and the other races, that they can never be fully integrated, and these fundamental differences are what leads to many conflicts. Yeah. The whole idea of human/monster conflicts not just arising from simple petty misunderstandings but some basic incompatibility in some way justifies the D&D attitude about attacking monsters brutally and with impunity. It also, in some way, adds a great deal of pathos and tragedy to it. I like it. On a different note, I'm really digging the idea of the modern clans/tribes existing as the remnants of old Dhakaani organizations and social institutions. The term "Ghaal'dar" is supposed to mean "Council of Chiefs" or something, isn't it? I like the idea of it being some kind of state-administrated local leadership institution -- an officer corps, a set of local land managers, whatever -- that after the dissolution of the empire became brutal and dictatorial. EDIT: Being a part of a caste society doesn't mean you can't have hobbies or a personal life either. Spend all day working in the fields, training for war, or legislating, then go drink some ale, play some party games, and listen to music. Sure, although in a society like Dhakaan I would expect even this to be different. There would be distinct cultural pursuits and cultural expectations for each race, and a real sense that it was "improper" for a goblin to indulge in hobgoblins' games of oratory and negotiation (a hobgoblin party might be like a French salon), while bugbears would never scorn to touch goblins' strategic gambling games, parlor games based on wordplay, or love of arts and crafts (goblins striking me a lot like, well, D&D geeks in their pursuits), and bugbears' love of athletics, mock combat, hunting and hiking and sport and so on being disdained as uncouth by both other races.
ArcTan 11-29-06, 12:47 AM	All that said, the goblinoids are distinct species and cannot function as a 'hive'. Rather they must function like a great clock, and this is precisely what Dhakaani society was: from the very beginning the Empire was an engineered, artificial society, an ideal state rather than an organic outgrowth of pre-Dhakaani society. Sure. I never literally said the goblinoids were a hive in the way an anthill is. They're sentient beings, and their actions and breeding cycles far too complex to be controlled directly by hormonal triggers secreted by a queen. If they are a hive, they're a metaphorical one, one controlled not by biological factors but social ones, by the education and institutions of the Empire (memes controlling genes, rather than vice versa), and thus the system obviously falls into disarray and imbalance once the Empire falls. Left to their own devices, hobgoblins become tinpot dictators, bugbears petty thugs, and goblins a crawling, snivelling brutalized underclass; the correct set of memes need to be present for the genetic differences to reach their full potential, or else you just have three species ordered by weak->strong->stronger and dumb->kind of clever->smart, left to futilely struggle back and forth for dominance.
goblin_pride 11-29-06, 09:03 AM	Er, the ECS quotation (don't have the book on me) about how the Dhakaani "bred the goblins and bugbears as laborers and warriors", actually, along with repeated references to that by Keith Baker on these boards. The line is "bred goblins and bugbears as slaves and warriors" and my view was that individuals of both races were hand-picked to join societies of slave-soldiers rather than one being slaves and the other warriors.
goblin_pride 11-29-06, 09:18 AM	I never meant to imply that there are *only* three castes, and that their roles are actually as simple as "Hobgoblins bosses, goblins drudges, bugbears thugs". In fact I agree with Darth Syntax that a civilization as developed as the Dhakaani Empire *must* have had an intricately complex caste system, with many other contributing factors to caste assignment besides race, in place. This is nothing like the tone that came through in your earlier posts. From what was said earlier, you made it sound like any form of vertical movement by any of the races was impossible and the bugbears were just mindless servile brutes, goblins were only mindless workers and the hobgoblins ruled supreme. My thinking was and is that odd genetic manifestations such as great goblin leaders and philosophical bugbears would be cherished among the Dhakaani as outstanding and truly unique members of their respective races. The great heroes or the cultural icons of the Dhakaani would be those rare individuals that demonstrated levels of aptitude in skills generally assumed to be the province of the others.
goblin_pride 11-29-06, 09:25 AM	Oh, sure. Keith himself says that a Dhakaani warband always has members of all three races, and all three races believe that they have their specific role to play -- that only their race can play -- in any particular task (military or civilian), and are taught to take pride in it. Hobgoblins in general form the officer corps, bugbears the heavy troops, and goblins the light infantry and scouts, though variations on all these exist. (The shaarat'kesh goblin assassins, for instance, or the hobgoblin frontline chain troopers.) I wish you would've included that phrase "in general" in your earlier posts. My thinking was that all the races took part in every aspect of the empire. Goblins, bugbears and hobgoblins would each have vital roles to which they were better suited to the others but not to the point that the others would be completely omitted from any given function.
ArcTan 11-29-06, 03:02 PM	The line is "bred goblins and bugbears as slaves and warriors" and my view was that individuals of both races were hand-picked to join societies of slave-soldiers rather than one being slaves and the other warriors. Do this long enough and in a thorough enough fashion and the races will start to undergo evolution based on the roles you "breed" them for, even if you're not trying to do it. Humans started breeding dogs from wolves more or less by accident, after all.
lordalm 11-29-06, 03:06 PM	ArcTan and Darth Syntax your last few post have been very helpfull in clarifing your thought processes, thank you for your hard work.
ArcTan 11-29-06, 03:08 PM	This is nothing like the tone that came through in your earlier posts. From what was said earlier, you made it sound like any form of vertical movement by any of the races was impossible and the bugbears were just mindless servile brutes, goblins were only mindless workers and the hobgoblins ruled supreme. No. That is how the Ghaal'dar work, though. However, I do think the Empire is a place where goblins were specifically designed and designated to hold what we think of lower-level laboring class positions, hobgoblins were designed and designated to hold political and elite positions, and bugbears were designed and designated to hold the heavy labor and muscle positions. Their philosophy, however, was that none of these positions was inherently more honorable than the other, and everyone deserved plaudits for the work they did in the empire. Vertical movement would certainly be possible, in the sense that some goblins are certainly higher-rank than other goblins, hobgoblins higher-rank than others, etc. (The shaaraat'kesh outrank most ordinary goblins and, arguable, most members of any race, for instance.) *Lateral* movement, however, I think should be extremely rare, if it happens at all, and be culturally frowned upon -- this is a race based on Lawfulness, on careful pre-planning, and on everyone being content with the place society hands them. What we think of as class-jumping or class warfare should be anathema to the Dhakaani -- it should be something that modern-day Dhakaani see as a crippling and disgusting element of human society, that humans have no physical difference between their warriors, laborers and leaders and that the one can easily become the other through luck or subterfuge or determination. My thinking was and is that odd genetic manifestations such as great goblin leaders and philosophical bugbears would be cherished among the Dhakaani as outstanding and truly unique members of their respective races. The great heroes or the cultural icons of the Dhakaani would be those rare individuals that demonstrated levels of aptitude in skills generally assumed to be the province of the others. That's not very Dhakaani. Not if you accept the Dragonshard's emphasis on the role each race was bred for and the constant cultural exhortations to be content with your lot. If you want a Lawful, stable, happy Empire, you do *not* encourage people to chase after pipe dreams -- you do *not* play games like telling every goblin they could grow up to be emperor someday. That, in the long run, leads to situations like the Marguul, after the fall of the Empire -- when bugbears start to think that their physical strength and their ability to wrest control of the tribes from hobgoblins means they are fit to rule, because some damn fool human gave the bugbears the idea that rulership was something to strive for and try to achieve by taking it from those who have rightfully inherited it.
ArcTan 11-29-06, 03:13 PM	I wish you would've included that phrase "in general" in your earlier posts. My thinking was that all the races took part in every aspect of the empire. Goblins, bugbears and hobgoblins would each have vital roles to which they were better suited to the others but not to the point that the others would be completely omitted from any given function. But it's the big step of saying that the broad three-caste system *was* universal, or so close to universal as to make no difference, and that this was intentional thanks to selective breeding of the goblinoid races, that makes them interesting and different from humans. As it is, if the races just show certain tendencies toward certain kinds of work, then the differentiation of the goblinoid races is no different from the differentiation of ethnic groups in, say, Qing Dynasty China. To me the concept of "cosmopolitanism" is anathema to the idea of Dhakaan as a hyper-Lawful state, one that stresses unity, conformity and collective strength above all else. Individual ambition, self-determination and initiative -- these are *Chaotic* values, and ones that are the hallmark of the barbaric human nations. I don't, in other words, think that it's necessary or even good to apply principles from real life -- like saying that institutionalized racial restrictions on certain occupations are bad, counterproductive and will eventually lead to social revolution and collapse -- to the Dhakaani Empire. The point of the Dhakaani is that they're alien and different and should eventually be seen to think and act in certain ways that we would find repugnant and bizarre, just as we would seem to them. (And, just to be even more of a devil's advocate, I'm not even sure that it's actually true that an empire can never survive if it's founded in racist principles. Some very, very long-lasting empires had very hardcore prejudices about caste, race, and nation.)
Darth Syntax 11-29-06, 03:14 PM	we may have bread dogs from a wild form (although it is look less ans less like a wolf from some of the studies I have read) but when selective breeding and the like are no longer practiced, and the populations left to their own devices, you get something like dingos every bloody time. By analogy, the same thing would have happened to the goblinoids if they were bred in the same way, thye might well return to their 'original' form relatively quickly.
ArcTan 11-29-06, 03:34 PM	we may have bread dogs from a wild form (although it is look less ans less like a wolf from some of the studies I have read) but when selective breeding and the like are no longer practiced, and the populations left to their own devices, you get something like dingos every bloody time. By analogy, the same thing would have happened to the goblinoids if they were bred in the same way, thye might well return to their 'original' form relatively quickly. Keep in mind, though, that with most animals humans have only been breeding them for six thousand years at best (the limits of recorded history) so the amount of genetic divergence there can be is limited. Importantly, dogs may be an exception -- humans have apparently had dogs since before recorded history began, going all the way back to Cro-Magnon times -- and, also importantly, dogs are a *different species from wolves*. Dogs and wolves are still cross-fertile, sure, but they don't naturally seek each other out to mate, and dogs have many important genetic differences from wolves that they maintain when you set them loose in the wild. African wild dogs are very different from the other canines on the continent; dingoes are recognizably distinct from other _Canis_ species; etc. Even feral dogs still retain the obedience traits we bred into them so long ago -- they recognize human facial expressions and attitudes far more easily than other Canis species, sacrificing some ability to communicate among themselves to do so, they're always more intelligent on average, they have an ear for spoken language, etc. More importantly, when you "let these animals loose", these are non-sentient animals that breed by instinct. They will immediately start mixing their genes around again with anything that smells vaguely like a fertile member of the opposite sex once you let them out of their breeders' hands. (Even this isn't totally true, of course -- let a Chihuahua population and a St. Bernard population loose in the wild, and what probably happens is that the Chihuahua population dies out, not that you start getting a huge number of Chihuahua/St. Bernard half-breeds. Even if goblinoids suddenly lost their sentience and became dumb animals in heat, I doubt a bugbear would look at a goblin and think of it as a *possible*, much less attractive, sexual prospect.) However, we're talking about ingrained cultural differences in intelligent beings, here -- and culture, memes, is the magic bullet for keeping behaviors alive in the long term when genetically bred instincts won't cut it. Even assuming that goblins, bugbears and hobgoblins haven't undergone true speciation -- that it is, in theory, still possible for a bugbear to have sex with a goblin and produce an in-between hybrid -- they've probably have it drummed into them for millennia that this kind of crossbreeding is disgusting, anathema, the worst kind of perversion. That's the kind of cultural prohibition that lasts even when the civilization that spawned it and its reasons for doing so have gone. And goblins *listen* to cultural prohibitions -- they're not, by nature, like humans, who seem to have a perverse desire to have sex with everything that moves or breathes no matter how gross it is (hence the existence of Half-(Human Half-)Elves, Half-(Human Half-)Giants, Half-(Human Half-)Ogres, Half-(Human Half-)Orcs, etc.) Goblins probably find the high number of hybrids among the PHB races to be nauseating. Which is not to say, again, that true speciation may not have occurred. With the timespan and the resources the Empire had to work with, I would actually be surprised if, at this point, goblins had the ability to successfully mate with hobgoblins. Even if it's genetically possible in theory, it may be that the physical differences are too great for a pregnancy to carry to term (look at the *size* difference) and an offspring that was born might end up sterile, like mules.
Darth Syntax 11-29-06, 04:09 PM	To me the concept of "cosmopolitanism" is anathema to the idea of Dhakaan as a hyper-Lawful state, one that stresses unity, conformity and collective strength above all else. Individual ambition, self-determination and initiative -- these are *Chaotic* values, and ones that are the hallmark of the barbaric human nations. Conformity might be one of the possible interpretations of 'lawfulness' but I think it is a very human and very narrow (and uninteresting) was of looking at law. Dhakaani social philosophy (my version that is) was based on the concept of a kind of universal law, which was more akin to gravity than to what we think of as legalism. All things, all people, have one and only one purpose in an ideal cosmos and it is the duty of the state to determine what this is and place the individual accordingly. Ideally, the desire of the individual and the will of the state would be the same and if these desires conflicted, it was assumed the state was correct, and that the individual was just confused. And this concept was constantly reinforced in the culture, so that very few people questioned it. The legal system, and the culture, were designed to maximize internal harmony, and not to control. Control arose from harmony, but it was not the origin of the Law. Law in the Empire was 'scientific' in that is was based on careful observation of how the various goblinoids behaved and designed so that 'it just made sense', so that people could not help but want to follow the laws. It was also culturally ingrained that that Law and the Courts were the only legitimate means of solving social problems, which reduced violence within the populous. If one is unhappy, one fills out forms and makes a petition to the courts, and one waits for the decision. Granted the laws are complex, confusing and downright Byzantine is nature, but it was what the Empire was centered on. Another aspect of Dhakaani social structure which is at odds with some conceptions of Lawfulness is its absolute hatred of all forms of traditional loyalty. These make for wonderful slaves, but make for poor citizens. Imagine if the vast majority of your population willingly and even happily, submitted to the Law. This is why blood-relations were considered generally meaningless, why religion was seen as odd and barbaric, and why clans were seen as illegitimate. The Empire was far more concerned with how you thought than with from who or from where you came. The Empire is far more about civic virtue and cooperation than it is about absolute conformity.
goblin_pride 11-29-06, 04:52 PM	Another aspect of Dhakaani social structure which is at odds with some conceptions of Lawfulness is its absolute hatred of all forms of traditional loyalty. These make for wonderful slaves, but make for poor citizens. Imagine if the vast majority of your population willingly and even happily, submitted to the Law. This is why blood-relations were considered generally meaningless, why religion was seen as odd and barbaric, and why clans were seen as illegitimate. The Empire was far more concerned with how you thought than with from who or from where you came. Blood relation clans would be the people that taught you originally the virtue of loyalty to the state and the responsibilities that entails. Being the source of those teachings, I would've assumed that the state would prize the clans as yet another tool of applying pressure to disident elements in the empire. High crimes such as outright treason would carry death sentences for not only the offending individual but the obviously tainted bloodline from which he came. Such harsh penalties wouldn't carry as much weight if the clan structure wasn't so ever-present. The clans would represent one in a series of layered loyalties, Birth clans, educational clans, professional clans, military and even political clans. Saying the clan structure divides the loyalties of an individual is a bit of a broad generalization that could be carried to an extreme. Do the bonds between soldiers in the empire divide the loyalty of the soldiers themselves? Do the bonds and loyalties to the other students in the universities and schools of the empire divide the loyalties of an individual? Where does it end? Another thought is that the citizens of the empire aren't born to a clan, they come from within one of the military or political societies. Being accepted into one of the societies that earns an individual citizenship would be a major turning point in a goblinoid's life and would carry with it a great deal of celebration or solemn ceremony. It wouldn't be birth that earns you the rights of citizenship, it would be the acheivement of demonstrating to the society that the empire would benefit from your citizenship.
Darth Syntax 11-29-06, 07:40 PM	You seem to be using a much broader meaning of clan than I. I interpret clan to mean 'a groups of related families allied as a political and/or social unit', so for me, you idea of non-kinship clans is somewhat confusing. Secondly, the Dhakaani dislike of blood-ties, clans, and the like, has little do do with divided loyalties, and everything to do with the distinction between proper and improper loyalties. Improper loyalties are those whose basis is arbitrary, families and kin-groups are an example of this. There is no rational basis to assume that you should owe any loyalty to your relatives solely on the basis of relation. If the people you are related to are indeed worthy of respect (due to their actions and so forth) then it is good and proper for one to show loyalty towards them. At the same time, one should owe no loyalty at all to people who are undeserving of respect. If your mother (for example) is a thief and a social parasite, breaking laws and contributing nothing to the larger society, then it is your duty to spurn her, and show no respect and no loyalty to her. However, if your mother is a hard-working olive farmer who pays her taxes and abides by the laws, then it is right and proper to show her respect and loyalty. Proper loyalty is freely, and most importantly, rationally given based on the actions of the person (or the organization or whatever) and how they benefit society as a whole. So it is perfectly permissible to be loyal to your kin if they deserve it, but their status as kin confers no special privilege upon them. Another thought is that the citizens of the empire aren't born to a clan, they come from within one of the military or political societies. Being accepted into one of the societies that earns an individual citizenship would be a major turning point in a goblinoid's life and would carry with it a great deal of celebration or solemn ceremony. It wouldn't be birth that earns you the rights of citizenship, it would be the acheivement of demonstrating to the society that the empire would benefit from your citizenship. This is somewhat closer to what I have in mind for how the empire functions. When one proves that they can be a useful member of their profession (their caste) and that they are worthy of respect, they are grated full citizenship (as it is defined by the particular caste). Those who fail to prove their worth to the caste and to the larger society might be sold into slavery (of the lowest kind) or exiled from the empire. -- Some further information on Dhakaani family and caste structure In most cases, the living arrangements of the citizens of the Empire are quite different from what might be regarded as 'a traditional nuclear family.' As a general rule spouses do not live together, and this is especially true of the middle and upper classes. Indeed for them to live under the same roof would be seen as somewhat scandalous. Children are expected to live with their mother until the age of assessment, if the occupation (the caste) of the mother fits the child then the child will stay with her and learn her trade. If, as often happens, the child might be better suited for some other task, a patron is arranged for the child (this might be an individual or an organization), and the child passes into this person's care. For the next few years (generally until about age 14) the child is apprenticed to the patron and taught the rudiments of what is to become their profession. At around age 14, the child in question may select a member of their new caste whom they regard as especially worth of respect and may choose to be adopted by this person. If the proposed adopter agrees, and sees the child as worthy of respect, then the adoption occurs. A similar thing occurs to children who remain in the caste of their mother. At around age 14 they may petition to be adopted by someone they deem worthy of emulation. This can even be ones own mother or some other relative. These adoptive families are considered to be an expression of proper loyalty as they are willing entered into.
eehamburg 11-29-06, 09:26 PM	It is amazing ... here I am in the middle of the Caribbean Sea with my wife on our vacation cruise and yet ... I am still drawn to this particular thread to find out the latest on the great minds constructing the goblinoids ..... So I started thinking and I saw this : MM4 puts out a new Hobgoblin that is supposed to be the ancient ansestor. So if you all want to keep putting forth the breeding progrom, thats probally your source. And that got me thinking in a different way ... what if the breeding programs were not just breeding like with like ... strong with strong and intelligent with intelligent, etc... but what if they were like what the Inspired were doing and adding in other races? Why should the Inspired have a monoply? And where does it say that it all has to be pure goblinoid blood? What if some Orc blood or human blood was thrown in? So ... what if for instance, you started with the goblin and you mixed with a human until it ran pure and thus the goblin/human hybrid gave you the hobgoblin much like the human/elf gave you the Khoravar? And what if the goblin/orc hybriad gave you the bugbear in much the same way? Do any of you think that this could be a possiblity? Could this be an idea that could have some merit? Well .... I leave that to you experts... for me ... I am merely watching and providing comments, here and there. And besides, tomorrow we go to St. Thomas and I hear it is nice. Let me know what you think... as I might be back before the end of this cruise. Later.
goblin_pride 11-29-06, 09:57 PM	You seem to be using a much broader meaning of clan than I. I interpret clan to mean 'a groups of related families allied as a political and/or social unit', so for me, you idea of non-kinship clans is somewhat confusing. Sorry, I may not have made it clear earlier in my posts. I followed to a degree the idea in KB's Dragonshard article of clans based on merit for joining and applied that to a much broader spectrum. Yes, the clan that bore you into the world would be important for arranging adoption and a proper mate* but beyond that all clan affiliations are based on your being accepted into and you accepting the rules of the clan to which you are a member. Calling these close-knit affiliations clans is both a hold-over to the more barbaric past when the clans were indeed related by nothing more than blood ties and a political tool because a clan's representation to the Imperial court is based on the "each clan shall have it's say" rules of the empire during the rise from the kingdoms period. The Tribal system that arose within the Grand council of the Empire resulted from the same set of dictates and said that "a tribe may speak for the clans within it and be counted as the opinion of all it's clans, unless objection is voiced by a clan itself". Better to change the words society uses than to alter a good law, neh? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- * the clan of a goblinoid's birth is important in the choosing of a fitting mate for further population growth only in that it's a serious crime for matings to be from within the same bloodline. Cousins may marry among the humanoids, but among the goblinoids marrying cousins related closer than 8 generations removed and fathering children with them can have legal complications, social stigma and possibly even fatal court-imposed results.
a_psh 11-29-06, 11:14 PM	And that got me thinking in a different way ... what if the breeding programs were not just breeding like with like ... strong with strong and intelligent with intelligent, etc... but what if they were like what the Inspired were doing and adding in other races? Why should the Inspired have a monoply? And where does it say that it all has to be pure goblinoid blood?The thing is, this trope already rans rampant throughout fantasy genetics. It's really the other approach -- the one that's a lot closer to biological reality -- that's poorly developed and represented in the fantasy genre, D&D, and Eberron itself.
goblin_pride 11-29-06, 11:48 PM	In most cases, the living arrangements of the citizens of the Empire are quite different from what might be regarded as 'a traditional nuclear family.' As a general rule spouses do not live together, and this is especially true of the middle and upper classes. Indeed for them to live under the same roof would be seen as somewhat scandalous. Is this meant for the Citizens and not the non-citizens? I'm assuming that you also see "citizen" as being a title of status among the Dhakaani much as it was in ancient Rome, with the bulk of the population being non-citizens and being a citizen conferred quite a bit of political clout compared to the non-citizens who had very few rights but were still free men as opposed to slaves. My view is that while a goblinoid might be a citizen of Paluur Draal, he may not be a citizen of the Dhakaani Empire. Because being a citizen of the empire is more of a social rank earned by those who serve the empire best, the non-citizens wouldn't have the same rights and priveleges.
ArcTan 11-30-06, 04:44 AM	Conformity might be one of the possible interpretations of 'lawfulness' but I think it is a very human and very narrow (and uninteresting) was of looking at law. Dhakaani social philosophy (my version that is) was based on the concept of a kind of universal law, which was more akin to gravity than to what we think of as legalism. All things, all people, have one and only one purpose in an ideal cosmos and it is the duty of the state to determine what this is and place the individual accordingly. True, but this is, in a way, a chicken-and-egg problem. The easiest way to make sure that your control is beneficial for the people you control and that they will be smoothly and easily amenable to the control you enforce on them is to cheat, to start out by making people into the kind of people who wish to be controlled by you and thrive under your control. Any social system will try to do this on an individual level with social conditioning, with education and upbringing and trying to "raise children right". This is why the Confucian system, which in history bears the most resemblance to the kind of rhetoric you're talking about here, emphasizes *education* above all things -- an adult who has been poorly educated is very, very difficult to accomodate into the harmony of a peaceful society, whereas a child who has been taught from birth to know and accept his place ("Let a king be a king, a servant be a servant, a father be a father and a son be a son") will by nature be happy and productive where he is. Of course, there's a nature as well as nurture factor -- genetics may make you unhappy in a chosen societal role even if all your environmental variables are constrained to try to make you happy there -- but then, what if you could control that too? In fact, wouldn't an enlightened society that valued harmony *want* to do this? If you could, in fact, have the power to make sure that all the children of a certain family were born with the aptitude for a certain kind of manual labor, would enjoy it and be prosperous and successful at it and lack the natural ambition and propensities of a leader, wouldn't it be an amazing step toward improving social harmony to try to give as many families as possible this kind of guarantee? Ideally, the desire of the individual and the will of the state would be the same and if these desires conflicted, it was assumed the state was correct, and that the individual was just confused. And this concept was constantly reinforced in the culture, so that very few people questioned it. The legal system, and the culture, were designed to maximize internal harmony, and not to control. Control arose from harmony, but it was not the origin of the Law. Law in the Empire was 'scientific' in that is was based on careful observation of how the various goblinoids behaved and designed so that 'it just made sense', so that people could not help but want to follow the laws. It was also culturally ingrained that that Law and the Courts were the only legitimate means of solving social problems, which reduced violence within the populous. If one is unhappy, one fills out forms and makes a petition to the courts, and one waits for the decision. Granted the laws are complex, confusing and downright Byzantine is nature, but it was what the Empire was centered on. Another aspect of Dhakaani social structure which is at odds with some conceptions of Lawfulness is its absolute hatred of all forms of traditional loyalty. These make for wonderful slaves, but make for poor citizens. Imagine if the vast majority of your population willingly and even happily, submitted to the Law. This is why blood-relations were considered generally meaningless, why religion was seen as odd and barbaric, and why clans were seen as illegitimate. The Empire was far more concerned with how you thought than with from who or from where you came. The Empire is far more about civic virtue and cooperation than it is about absolute conformity. Sure, but this is really a difference in attitudes rather than a difference, I would say, in kind from what a human would think of as "conformity". Your average Brel -- or, hell, probably even Thrane or Karrn -- will look at a Dhakaani social structure and a brutal Ghaal'dar social structure and basically see lots and lots more people doing what they're told -- and far, far fewer people acting on random whims, struggling for their own power and success, and seeming to have thoughts of their own -- than he's used to, and he's going to call both societies "conformist" even though people in one seem far happier and better-adjusted than people in the other.
ArcTan 11-30-06, 04:52 AM	And that got me thinking in a different way ... what if the breeding programs were not just breeding like with like ... strong with strong and intelligent with intelligent, etc... but what if they were like what the Inspired were doing and adding in other races? Why should the Inspired have a monoply? And where does it say that it all has to be pure goblinoid blood? What if some Orc blood or human blood was thrown in? So ... what if for instance, you started with the goblin and you mixed with a human until it ran pure and thus the goblin/human hybrid gave you the hobgoblin much like the human/elf gave you the Khoravar? And what if the goblin/orc hybriad gave you the bugbear in much the same way? Do any of you think that this could be a possiblity? Could this be an idea that could have some merit? As a_psh points out, the idea of rampant cross-species hybridization has roots in fantasy because it's born of a certain old-fashioned and unscientific view of how "races" or "species" work -- that a species is a fixed, unchanging constellation of traits, but that passing traits between species is an easy matter -- that, in theory, anything can mate with anything -- and so evolution or change in species is the result of an external force injecting new "genes" into the mix and changing everything around. This, in fact, is not really how it works -- evolution doesn't require the injection of new genes from elsewhere, it just requires the certain level of random variation and spontaneous mutation that's always ongoing in any gene pool. And, indeed, among different species, the prospect of randomly mixing in genes from one species into another is quite difficult -- most species are not, in fact, cross-fertile (that's what keeps them separate species) and in real life humans and Vulcans or humans and elves probably couldn't have hybrid babies, any more than you can make a carnivorous hunting-mount by making horses breed with dogs. Goblinoids undergoing their *own* speciation by simple selective breeding does, in fact, make more sense -- it's actually the kind of thing you'd *expect* to happen in real life that, mysteriously, never does happen in fantasy. The converse, two completely unrelated species meeting for the first time and somehow generating hybrids, is far less likely and yet fantasy is chock full with it up the wazoo. I really would expect Dhakaan to have a certain notion of racial purity and a sense of miscegenation, like other kinds of disorder and chaos, as, at the very least, distasteful. I like the idea of all the goblinoid races nonetheless being part of the same, singular super-race, all pure descendants of the one original bloodline of the blessed race of goblinoids, and a sense of shunning outsiders as, well, outsiders, not part of the great racial project of empire. Yeah, sure, a long-lived and sophisticated empire would find a *place* within the empire for the gnomes and dwarves and other Khorvairian humanoids they conquered as slaves over time, but probably very, very rarely would this ever be a good or honored place. Those xenophobic, barbaric orcs, dwarves, gnomes and kobolds all probably had damn good reasons for hating, fearing and resisting the Dhakaani with all their might, to the point of gnomes and dwarves still having that racial hatred and racial bonuses against the goblinoid races. And you do notice that Dhakaan probably had more than enough resources to communicate with the reclusive elves of Aeren but never bothered to do so, letting first real contact between the elves and the continent of Khorvaire wait for the age of humans -- any more, I guess, than Ming Dynasty China felt bestirred to let Zhenghe open real, normalized communications between China and those Europeans on the other side of Africa.
goblin_pride 11-30-06, 12:51 PM	Once again I find myself at a loss to come up with anything truly useful, but a bit of fluff text seems to have forced it's way through the quagmire: The door creaked open, hinges showing their age with a sound more blood-curdling than any I'd ever heard before. The voice from within was harsh, more growling than speaking as it said, "get in here child, don't just stand in the hallway looking like the other slack-jawed morons we bought from that pathetic flesh-peddler." I tripped as I cross the threshold, I wasn't expecting the step up and the growling voice began anew, "are you so afraid of me child that you forget the simple process of walking?" I simply bowed my head, knowing that any answer could make my situation far worse. "Good, it knows when it should keep it's tongue firmly behind it's teeth" he began, "do you know how to read?" I shook my head meekly, hoping that this would be answer enough to avoid a lashing. When he spoke again, the tone wasn't as harsh, but the texture was still as abrasive as anything I'd ever heard. "I am not on the floor child, you will focus your eyes somewhat higher when I am addressing you." When I looked up, I was expecting to see something else. The goblin addressing me was far older than many I'd seen, with tattoos and scars covering most of the skin left exposed on his face and arms. "I am Kethet the elder, and it would seem that before I can decide if you are to be adopted by the Silent Sons, I am to teach you to read and write." I was shocked at the thought, reading and writing? Slaves never learn to read and write. A low chuckle broke my train of thought as he looked at my papers. "It would seem this may be a bit of destiny, little one." I was puzzled and he must've been able to clearly read it from my face. "Your father appears to be one of our Esteemed Fathers." His laughter subsided a bit and he continued, "one day, I may be able to say that I had trained father and son." I was perplexed, I'd always thought my father was just another slave. "Good bloodlines, both Elo'khesh and Taarka'khesh", he paused for a moment, "I would be remiss if I didn't have you tested for riding ability." I waited for him to explain, but he never did. "It says here that you tested well with the sword and spear, but with the bow you surpassed all expectations for a goblin your age and level of training." A smile began to creep across my face. "Wipe that grin off your face or my backhand will join it", he bellowed, full of rage. I didn't understand at the time what offense I had caused. "You are no better than any other in these halls, to take such pride in the ability given you through no effort of your own is intolerable. I will not suffer such boastful vanity from one such as you when others struggle all their lives to do through skill things breeding makes of you capable." And that was when he hit me. The stroke of the cane was sharp, not like the lash of the slave-tenders, it cut the flesh cleanly. "That scar, you insolent little whelp, will remind you that your talents are useless without the constant devotion and training required to hone the skills that others here have spent a lifetime building." I dropped to my knees, fearing that another stroke was coming. "Get off the floor, you are not some snivelling, wretched field slave." I stood up, uncertain if I would be driven back for rising too quickly or too slowly. "You have received your punishment and that's the end of it." He resumed his reading and when he finished, he looked at me and said, "I have come to a decision, would you like to know what it is?" I don't know how I ever found the courage to answer, but it seemed to please him. "You were brought to me for consideration because you are insolent, stubborn, pig-headed, uneducated and sadly, intelligent." My obvious confusion coaxed him to continue, "You were going to be sold to the farmers for your inability to control your baser personality traits. However, the brother in charge of the training barracks remembered that I was the same when I was your age." He reached for something behind the desk as he continued, "Finding recruits with brute physical strength or manual dexterity is not difficult. Those traits are common among the clans that provide labor for the more refined. Intelligence is however, a rarer trait." He held up a book and said, "This book is a treatise on tactics written by Ghala'ar the silent with notes added by Jataan the serene. It was a gift to me in my youth by my adopted father and will be yours if you wish." I looked at the book and realized what it was he was saying. "In the morning, you will begin the arduous path of learning. Once you've mastered reading, I will begin sending you into the library to study the ancient works of tactics between training sessions with the weapon masters." He stood and set the book down on the desk in front of me, saying "when you have learned all that I have to teach, you will take a place among the Silent Sons as a planner and leader, from the day you are accepted as a brother you will be known as Kethet the younger." From the moment I picked up that book, it has been with me always, a first gift from father to son. He told me once who it was that gave me life, some minor leader in the clan, no one worthy of mention.
eehamburg 12-01-06, 04:20 PM	So here I am still on the cruise with not much to do as we are 'at sea' this day and I felt like checking the thread .... and low and behold ... replies: The thing is, this trope already rans rampant throughout fantasy genetics. It's really the other approach -- the one that's a lot closer to biological reality -- that's poorly developed and represented in the fantasy genre, D&D, and Eberron itself. As a_psh points out, the idea of rampant cross-species hybridization has roots in fantasy because it's born of a certain old-fashioned and unscientific view of how "races" or "species" work -- that a species is a fixed, unchanging constellation of traits, but that passing traits between species is an easy matter -- that, in theory, anything can mate with anything -- and so evolution or change in species is the result of an external force injecting new "genes" into the mix and changing everything around. I am a little bit confused by these statements. Can you please clarify? Because the way that I see it is that this is fantasy and since when does reality interject itself into fantasy this way? If that is so, then call them Khoravar and NEVER refer to them as half-elves. And in addition, come up with a new name for Half-Orcs. Because if we are to interject true evolution and genetics then we must consider that these species are completely separate from their similar family. And in addition, they are "breeding true" is but a fallacy as they were already "true" from evolution... darwin not-withstanding. The point is that they should be considered separate and if we are to hold true to evolution, then we must put aside our old 'fantasy' perspectives and focus on the evolutionary 'reality'. So to sum it all up ... is Eberron fantasy or reality? you be the judge and you decide. Just let me know which idiosyncratic way you have decided to sway. Good day... good gaming....
goblin_pride 12-02-06, 02:38 AM	The point is that they should be considered separate and if we are to hold true to evolution, then we must put aside our old 'fantasy' perspectives and focus on the evolutionary 'reality'. I already do this. Without explaining anything in genetic terms, I focus on the individual tribe and use their name in place of goblin, hobgoblin, or bugbear. Each tribe or clan, has an identity that carries with it a specific traits common to that tribe or clan. Ferocious warriors are "as bold as a Kalkor", particularly stealthy individuals are "as quiet as a Sharaat'khesh". By using the tribal and clan names instead of the Race names of the game mechanics it adds a flavor to the setting and gives you a cultural reference to the genetic traits of each clan.
a_psh 12-02-06, 04:39 AM	I am a little bit confused by these statements. Can you please clarify?In reality, different critters can seldom cross-breed (one of the definitions of species is based on the ability to produce fertile offspring). In fantasy, they do all the time. In reality, speciation can occur over time for a variety of reasons... populations drift away from each other genetically and environmentally until they can no longer interbreed. This happens all the time. It's why practically everything has a common ancestor somewhere down the line, after all. In fantasy, unless you take the crossbreeding definition above to mean that humans and orcs and elves are one species, &c., there tend to be few indications of common ancestors among different species of beings, and things mostly speciate through silly magic. It would be at least mildly refreshing or surprising to turn the tired old tropes on their head and actually have goblinoids just split into different species like real creatures might, as a testament to the power and strangeness of their culture. Or, without overthinking it too much (because thinking too much about certain standard fantasy tropes makes one's head hurt with frustration and despair), * breeding with all kinds of weird creatures = common as rain in fantasy * actual speciation = fairly rare in fantasy, and vaguely unsettling when applied to D&D
ArcTan 12-02-06, 04:48 AM	I am a little bit confused by these statements. Can you please clarify? Because the way that I see it is that this is fantasy and since when does reality interject itself into fantasy this way? If that is so, then call them Khoravar and NEVER refer to them as half-elves. And in addition, come up with a new name for Half-Orcs. Because if we are to interject true evolution and genetics then we must consider that these species are completely separate from their similar family. And in addition, they are "breeding true" is but a fallacy as they were already "true" from evolution... darwin not-withstanding. The point is that they should be considered separate and if we are to hold true to evolution, then we must put aside our old 'fantasy' perspectives and focus on the evolutionary 'reality'. So to sum it all up ... is Eberron fantasy or reality? you be the judge and you decide. Just let me know which idiosyncratic way you have decided to sway. Good day... good gaming.... Er, dude. C'mon. Half the point of threads like this is, if not ouright *realism*, the feeling of verisimilitude. That's what makes fantasy interesting in the first place -- that you vary certain things from what they are in real life but that you try to make them feel real, feel engaging. Really, the argument that "It's fantasy, it doesn't have to be realistic" annoys me. You're right, it *doesn't* have to be realistic, but there ought to be some kind of reasoning when it isn't. (Game balance, when you're playing a game. The sake of the story, when you're telling a story. The cool visual image, if you're in a visual medium.) The thing is that there's nothing inherently "non-fantastic" about a model of evolution that adheres more closely to real life. It's like saying that if I take pleasure in researching how real medieval weapons worked and try to make a combat system that feels as close to the real back-and-forth of a swordfight as possible, that I'm somehow being "non-fantastic" because I *don't* include skyscraper-high leaps and swords twice the size and weight of a man and the ability to project fire from a blade. Sure, magic exists in D&D, and the fantastic idea of magical hybridization does too. But it's not intrinsic to D&D that we subscribe to the old-school creationist idea that the borders between different species are sacrosanct barring magic and that real evolution never happens. For someone who knows a little bit about how genetics and evolution work, it becomes *more fun* and *more interesting* if you can include some of those ideas -- which, after all, are, in my opinion, incredibly cool -- in the game. After all, I never said that magical hybridization *did not exist* in my Eberron. In fact, it was the opposite -- I see magical hybridization as something that happens all the time with the wacky chaotic churning world of modern Khorvaire, and I see a *contrast* between that and the Dhakaani -- the idea that the goblinoids *lack* a penchant for breeding with random other races and magically screwing around with their genes makes them interesting, in much the same way that their lack of something ubiquitous and defining among modern human nations -- divine spellcasters and institutionalized religious faith -- makes them interesting. The role reversal of having the society that is in many ways *more like our own* -- more "modern", more "scientific", less magical -- be the alien and grotesque one because we are so used to the standard D&D kingdoms within the context of D&D is interesting. In any case, slamming an idea of mine -- and, I argue, of Keith Baker's -- because it's too "realistic" seems utterly wrongheaded to me. After all, the other people in this thread are similarly the ones who argued *against* selective breeding and caste among the goblinoids for reasons of "realism", except they cited *historical* rather than scientific realism -- that a society like this "just wouldn't work" based on what we know of historical societies -- which seems to me far more dubious, since everything we know about the social sciences comes from the history of one species, while what we know about biology and evolution is far more certain and far more universal. In any case, do you similarly slam someone who makes arguments on katana fantasy threads based on a real understanding of metallurgy and Japanese military history, or in the interminable "How populous must Sharn be?" debates based on real knowledge of economics and urban planning? It's fantasy, sure, but that doesn't mean ignoring real issues when they crop up, or the fact that for a lot of knowledgeable people fantasy is most fun when it acknowledges the way things really work instead of ignoring them (especially when ignores them out of ignorance rather than by choice). An addendum: I'm not really entirely sure what kind of point you were trying to make with the Half-Elves and Half-Orcs. As I pointed out, those races *are* unrealistic in their sudden appearance due to hybridization between extremely dissimilar races, and I don't like the very clear, bright line drawn between the "half-" races and the full races. But I don't exactly *mind* that, since it's a fantasy world. I just don't see why this must be the rule for how all things work, and the fact that this *exists* does *not* mean that real evolution still doesn't exist and still doesn't happen (any more than a species created with genetic engineering technology today would be immune to the forces of natural selection). Of course, the *name* "Half-Elf" and "Half-Orc" is the least important part of it. A world can hold to a certain scientific principle without everyone in it being aware of it or using the terminology a scientist would find accurate. I know a starfish isn't a fish, but I still call it a "starfish" rather than a "sea star" because that's the terminology I'm used to. Big whoop. Your statements aren't entirely accurate, anyway. It isn't outside the realm of possibility to have something like a "half-orc" in real life -- many related, but separated, species can be hybridized after reintroducing them to each other. If the species are radically different enough that the hybrid is clearly very different from either of them (like with a liger or a mule) then the new species typically has a very hard time reproducing on its own, but there's no inherent reason why this should be impossible, and a new identifiable set of phenotypic traits be associated with this new hybrid species. Some claim that true-breeding ligers existed once in southern China, for example. It's just that it's hard to swallow this in D&D sometimes with the sheer range of ridiculous things humans can mate with (elves, who don't sleep and outlive humans by two orders of magnitude; ogres; giants; etc.). But still. I'm not that ticked off about it, I'd just like some acknowledgement that not everyone in the world of Eberron should see this rampant hybrid brigade as normal.
ArcTan 12-02-06, 05:01 AM	And a quick addendum: My main objection to any notion of splicing in genes from other species for the goblinoids is that I can't see any reason to do it. Like you said -- it makes them just like the Inspired, and like tons of other powerful villain states in fantasy fiction. It takes something unique and makes it boring and cliched. If anything, I would think that to truly be *fantastic* and be imaginative, fantasy should stop trying to copy all the fantasy that came before it. Half-Goblins are an old and tired trope -- a species that breeds its way to specialization on its own are a new and interesting one.
Siran Dunmorgan 12-02-06, 12:22 PM	If you want a Lawful, stable, happy Empire, you do *not* encourage people to chase after pipe dreams -- you do *not* play games like telling every goblin they could grow up to be emperor someday. That, in the long run, leads to situations like the Marguul, after the fall of the Empire -- when bugbears start to think that their physical strength and their ability to wrest control of the tribes from hobgoblins means they are fit to rule, because some damn fool human gave the bugbears the idea that rulership was something to strive for and try to achieve by taking it from those who have rightfully inherited it.Damn fool human? I don't think so. Damn fool Zil, more likely, aye, and suggestive of the reason the Empire fell in the first place. Regarding the questions of genetics, breeding, and the caste system, I've always assumed that there was a natural common ancestor of goblins, gnomes, and halflings, and that the separation of these races was a result of tinkering by one or more Rajahs. Further, I have assumed that this same process (with a different ancestral stock) also resulted in the various types of lizardfolk, troglodytes, and similar races that we see today. Whether the three goblinoid races that we see today existed before the Age of Giants is still open to debate: I suspect that they did, but this thread is providing some very convincing arguments that only the common goblin-like stock existed in that era, and that it was sometime late in the Age of Giants or early in the Age of Monsters, that the lines began to separate. —Siran Dunmorgan
lordalm 12-02-06, 06:35 PM	Well this thread has been active hasn't? ArcTan congratulations on the longest flame I think I ever saw, wether it was your intention to flame or not. And I certainly understood where your coming from. To the guy that opened the can of worms. Did you enjoy your vacation. IT'S COLD HERE, I HATE YOU. And to kinda answer your question a little better. Its both. Helpful? Science creeps into fantasy, like it, hate it, its part and parsel of an educated populous. Though wait a couple more years and Bush's no child left behind will finish the dumbing down process that the politicical elite have been after for years. Speaking of Societies. I notice that the 3 biggest contibutors of the goblin history seem to have come up with communism/socialism. I want to play :devil: 's advocate if I may? Why should the goblins be so against familial bonds? I mean in the greater scheme of things not a lot of time is spent by most warm blooded species with thier progeny. But they do take care of the young and the young do look to the parent(s). Goblinoids may very well engage in creche rearing as part of a soceital process. But, again going back to that evil common base we all draw from, there is no real world parallel to draw from, at least from any human society that I am aware of. From scientific data the development of the human brain is actually harmed if the babe dosen't get a lot of positive reinforcement from its mother/primary care giver (it wasn't that clear to me if any extra emphasis was placed on the mother vs. say the father from the news report I am thinking of). Come and get me. :duel: :mrt: :monk:
eehamburg 12-02-06, 08:49 PM	goblin_pride: part of my point so thank you for your explanation. a_psh: excellent points and things to consider. ArcTan: you just thrive on conflict, don'tcha? everyone has their own POV ... thanks for sharing yours.... even if I don't fully agree. lordalm: Where are you at? Our cruise is just about over then it is back to Philly and back to the cold.... the warmth was nice while it lasted. ...and ahhh I saved up for 3 years to get this cruise ... with some work and practice, you can too... hey ... I saw that news report... scary stuff.... wouldn't like that for my kid ... and to top it all off ... I agree that even in communist/socialist socieites, family can be important and therefore should be no reason to change it here. Oh well ... time to fly ... back to the cold it shall be....
Darth Syntax 12-03-06, 04:55 AM	I have several different things to respond to here, so please bear with me as I ramble. On Evolution and other biological items In my version of the world, goblinoids belong to a different genus than the PHB humanoids, and are not, in fact, apes. Rather, goblinoids share a closer relationship with baboons, mandrills and the like. This relation was suggested mostly by the whole blue nose thing with male hobgoblins and sort of spiraled out of control i guess. Anyway, the three major goblinoid species do share a common ancestor, but it was remote enough in the past that they can no longer produce offspring across the three groups. Similarly, goblinoids cannot hybridize with humans or other anthropoids. Speaking of the various PHB humanoids, I would like to touch on them briefly before moving along to other things. All the PHB humanoids (and I would assume shifters, kalashtar and maybe changelings) belong to the same genus which, as we all know, cannot be written on these fora. How they arrived in their present locations is something of a wee problem, but I have attempted to tackle it. A creature not unlike h. erectus originally evolved on Sarlona during the late Age of Demons and eventually became quite widespread (possibly crossing land-bridges to continents other than sarlona). Those that came to Khorvaire were marginalized by the already existing proto-goblinoids and eventually became much smaller than their cousins in sarlona. These would evolve into halflings and gnomes, with gnomes emerging out of halflings possibly due to the interference of a manifest zone to Thelanis or some such thing. Meanwhile, the sarlonin hominids eventually developed into something like archaic-modern humans and Neanderthals. This latter group would migrate across the frostfell and down into khorvaire where the main line of the population would develop into orcs, and a small, isolated population would speciate up in the mountains and become dwarves. Elves, well their weird, as in my incarnation of the world the Giants of old Xen'Drik created them out of h. erectus stock by means of now-lost scientific sorcery. This is the reason for their absurd lifespans, lack of sleeping, and all the other oddities about them. As for the Rajah's messing with the wee humanoids, I really don't see it happening. To the Rajahs, humanoids would have been like bugs, very boring bugs. I don't tend to get too worked up with the spiders in my shower (yes I know spiders are not actually bugs, but bear with me here) and if i do anything to them, its squish them. Such was the opinion of the Rajahs concerning humanoids, in my view. The Rhakshasa's on the other hand might have messed with things, and i generally assign them as the creators of the gnolls and other such beast-men, mostly because beast-men don't make any sense. Ok then, moving on to things more germane to the thread -- Why should the goblins be so against familial bonds? I mean in the greater scheme of things not a lot of time is spent by most warm blooded species with thier progeny. But they do take care of the young and the young do look to the parent(s). Goblinoids may very well engage in creche rearing as part of a soceital process. But, again going back to that evil common base we all draw from, there is no real world parallel to draw from, at least from any human society that I am aware of. From scientific data the development of the human brain is actually harmed if the babe dosen't get a lot of positive reinforcement from its mother/primary care giver (it wasn't that clear to me if any extra emphasis was placed on the mother vs. say the father from the news report I am thinking of). First, I would like to offer up a slight clarification concerning goblinoids and families. It is not all goblinoids who considered biological families to be socially irrelevant, this was a feature unique to the Dhakaani empire. Secondly, I would like to offer something in the way of an explanation of my line of thinking on this topic. From a world-external standpoint, I am frankly tired of family and kin groups being used as the foundation of social and political legitimacy in fantasy literature (I find the whole notion of a 'rightful heir' and the like to be an inherent oxymoron as I don't accept the notion of hereditary legitimacy), so I decided that I would attempt to construct the Empire on a totally different line. The idea of a meritocracy, with strong legalistic overtones and an emphasis on culture rather than kin suggested itself and I ran with it. This lead to the ideas of wide-spread adoption and the marginalization of the biological family, as well as the idea of proper and improper loyalty. This is not to say there there are not social units in the Empire that approximate a family, it is simply that these units are not based on genetic relations. Rather these units were consciously constructed and often negotiated so that all members of these 'families' were volitional members. As I have said before, adoption was widespread in the Empire especially in the middle and upper classes where it was basically a given. This has some interesting consequences for kinship terms and the like, which I am only begining to discover. As a child lived with and is cared for by its mother until about the age of 7, it seems logical that the biological mother is called yäyďn the OHD informal form of mother. However, the notion of a child's father is a bit more complex. In most cases the husband of the mother would not be the biological father of any of her children, as spouses are supposed to live apart and meet only in public gatherings and the like. Nevertheless, the child would refer to this person as kaule which is the formal form of father in OHD. The consort of the mother, and most likely the child's biological father, might be referred to as daru (the familiar form of father ) especially if the child is not adopted, but this is by no means universal. If the child is adopted, then the male adopter who directly cares for the child in some way, might well be known as daru. This is the most common person to whom the word is applied. A child who was adopted by the civil service might call their care-taker/instructor daru and one taken in by the Dazhutraan might well call their master daru. Patraline descent gets rather more complicated at this point, as one's paternal grandfather is defined as something like 'the one called daru by the one you call that same name'. So one's patraline is formed, usually, by a string of various adoptive 'fathers'. Moreover, the patraline tends to indicate a profession or a group of related professions as adoption is generally seen as a form of patronage or apprenticeship. This group is considered to be your 'true family' as they represent your professional forebeares, the kin of your mind. If, however, you are adopted by a female, then you end up with a very complex system of relation which i am only begining to understand. Effectively, you belong to two matralines, one your 'family of the flesh' and the other 'your family of the mind' and there are no doubt various terms to distinguish these. In Dhakaani society, only your 'kin of the mind' are considered to be socially legitimate. A brief note to add onto this: these adoptions were allowed to be cross-species, although this was not particularly common. The rarity of this was mostly due to the difficulties one might have in dealing with a child of radically different psychology. It was, however, possible to be a goblin with a bugbear whom you call daru and a hobgoblin you call dadaru. -- Well, hopefully that all made some sense, and gives you all a clearer idea of where I am coming from with some of my ideas. I'm sure I'll have all manner of addenda, edits, revisions and the like to make to this model until it looks like what I am seeing in my mind's eye. I would just like to add: Clearly this thread is mistitled, as there is clearly plenty of love for the goblinoids around here.
goblin_pride 12-03-06, 08:58 AM	Secondly, I would like to offer something in the way of an explanation of my line of thinking on this topic. From a world-external standpoint, I am frankly tired of family and kin groups being used as the foundation of social and political legitimacy in fantasy literature (I find the whole notion of a 'rightful heir' and the like to be an inherent oxymoron as I don't accept the notion of hereditary legitimacy), so I decided that I would attempt to construct the Empire on a totally different line. The idea of a meritocracy, with strong legalistic overtones and an emphasis on culture rather than kin suggested itself and I ran with it. This lead to the ideas of wide-spread adoption and the marginalization of the biological family, as well as the idea of proper and improper loyalty. This is not to say there there are not social units in the Empire that approximate a family, it is simply that these units are not based on genetic relations. Rather these units were consciously constructed and often negotiated so that all members of these 'families' were volitional members. In Dhakaani society, only your 'kin of the mind' are considered to be socially legitimate. I went a slightly different way with the familial bonds among the Dhakaani. First of all, you have to understand that not all the goblinoids of the empire were considered Dhakaani. Being a Dhakaani meant that you had served the empire in some fashion and were considered worthy of being made a citizen of the empire. Being Dhakaani usually involved being adopted by another Dhakaani that was not a blood relative. Most Dhakaani reached their citizenship by service in one of the many "clans" that consisted of Dhakaani citizens. Children born from Dhakaani clans would still have to make their own way into citizenship and were treated as property of the clan under the law until such time as they were adopted. It didn't mean that the family wasn't important, it just didn't matter to the empire. Non-Dhakaani in the empire were literally nothing more than chattel. The slave societies would often purchase the children of Dhakaani clans in large numbers so that they could find suitable heirs to the power wielded by the societies and the empire itself. Most of the recruiting pool would either die in the examination process, be sold off to slave buyers of the farming clans or be adopted by the society or one of it's members. Adoption by an individual was rare, because the emperor allowed the societies to adopt by the hundreds in order to increase troops strengths when needed. Dhakaani clans were the only ones that had a voice in the running of the empire because it was the Dhakaani that ruled the entire empire. Life was hard for those not adopted by a Dhakaani or a slave society. Most were relegated to lives of hard labor and endless toil. The Dhakaani members of the farming clans would adopt promising young slaves from their field stock, just as the mining clans would adopt particularly adept miners. The same happened in every clan and every profession in the empire. The few non-dhakaani clans that were composed of free subjects, those freed by their former masters, were taxed ten times as hard as the Dhakaani clans in the same profession and by law could not own slaves. If a non-dhakaani couldn't afford to pay it's taxes, it's freedom was forfeit and it was made property of the empire and sold to whatever clan wished to purchase. With such a large number of individuals living under the rule of the empire, certain laws were very important. Non-Dhakaani and slaves were not allowed to own weapons, armor or property. Killing a slave you or your clan own was never questioned, but the killing of another's slave required payment of up to seven times the slave's value if the killing was unjustified. Property was granted to the clan by the grand council of the empire and the emperor. Only a clan could own property and a non-dhakaani could rent from any clan, as long as his taxes were properly paid.
goblin_pride 12-03-06, 02:33 PM	A brief thought on the concept of slavery in the empire. The Dhakaani viewed children as property until they took their place as a member of the empire. It was purely voluntary for a slave to try to better themselves and many slaves worked very hard to make themselves valued enough to their owners to be adopted and made full citizens of the empire. Some were content being nothing more than slaves and as such were held in great contempt by the empire and routinely changed owners as one clan would tire of a slave with no desire to better himself and the empire. The fact that all citizens of the Dhakaani empire started their lives as slaves is important to the mindset of the Imperial culture. A second major misconception is that the Dhakaani used slaves as soldiers. This is blantantly untrue, the Dhakaani felt strongly that slaves weren't motivated enough to be used in the defense of the empire. The soldier-slaves referred to by scholars were slaves adopted into one of the military societies of the empire, trained as soldiers and used as either part of the training forces of the societies or assembled into frontier garrisons, police forces and elite guards for the rulers of the empire. These soldier-slaves referred to in the epics were Dhakaani citizens that achieved their status through excellence in their craft as deemed by the commanders of their society. Mistreating a slave within the empire was considered distasteful at the least and treasonous at the worst. The Dhakaani citizens were responsible for the slaves under their care and it was considered a waste of the clan's and the empire's resources to abuse a slave to the point they were useless for physical labor of any kind. If a slave was unsuited to a task, they were simply sold to another clan or to one of the slave-soldier societies, very rarely would a Dhakaani slave be put to death without some grave offense being committed. More often than not, the Dhakaani that oversaw the work of an offending slave would point out that there are far worse tasks he could be doing. Slaves were, for the most part treated like children no matter what their age, because a slave that reached maturity without finding a niche and making good progress towards becoming a citizen was viewed as being somewhat odd. The laws that slaves were held to were considerably more restrictive than those of the Dhakaani citizen. Slaves were expected to yield to a citizen at all times and clear the path when meeting one on streets and roads. Slaves were prohibited from even handling weapons or armor at all, the sole exception was within the slave-soldier societies and that was only under the care of a master of the society and within the training halls. A slave was expected to wait for a citizen to address them before speaking. A violation of any of these laws would result in minor corrections, usually a swift blow from a whip, leather flail or cane, depending on the clan. The weapon laws were another matter altogether, however, a slave caught with a weapon in hand could be killed on the spot without question. The Dhakaani views on the care and feeding of slaves were unique. A slave would, quite often be adopted by a citizen and join the clan, so they were treated far better than one would expect. Slaves were housed in communal stables within the clan's enclave and fed quite well considering their position. Food for the slaves was usually just as good as the food eaten by their masters although the citizens usually wouldn't waste money by feeding delicacies to the slaves. A warm bed, a roof over their head and three meals a day was standard in the empire.
lordalm 12-03-06, 03:38 PM	lordalm: Where are you at? Our cruise is just about over then it is back to Philly and back to the cold.... the warmth was nice while it lasted. ...and ahhh I saved up for 3 years to get this cruise ... with some work and practice, you can too... hey ... I saw that news report... scary stuff.... wouldn't like that for my kid ... and to top it all off ... I agree that even in communist/socialist socieites, family can be important and therefore should be no reason to change it here. Oh well ... time to fly ... back to the cold it shall be.... In Iowa, I don't fell so bad now...:cool:
lordalm 12-03-06, 03:50 PM	So the notion of slavery, which had begun to bother me, has been addressed. Sounds good to me Goblin-Pride. Which of course, with the slave taking and abuse that occurs with modern goblinoids so disgusting to the Dahkaani Heirs? Or would that be one of those areas that they are closer to thier lesser bretheren than they would like to admit?
VVill 12-03-06, 07:58 PM	Wonderful thread! Just wondering if anyone has though of the Blue's place in society?
goblin_pride 12-03-06, 09:41 PM	So the notion of slavery, which had begun to bother me, has been addressed. Sounds good to me Goblin-Pride. Which of course, with the slave taking and abuse that occurs with modern goblinoids so disgusting to the Dahkaani Heirs? Or would that be one of those areas that they are closer to thier lesser bretheren than they would like to admit? It's not the slavery that they find so disgusting, it's the abuse and mistreatment of the slaves and the races taken as slaves that offends the Dhakaani remnant's sensibilities. Taking huge numbers of slaves from populations that the Dhakaani empire would've considered vermin is dangerous in their minds. A Dhakaani citizen begins life as a slave and so they see taking slaves from the other races as particularly disturbing because that suggests to them that those races can also become citizens.
goblin_pride 12-03-06, 09:43 PM	Wonderful thread! Just wondering if anyone has though of the Blue's place in society? The Psion Gobbos? Aren't they addressed in the psionics book?
Darth Syntax 12-03-06, 11:57 PM	On Slavery in the Empire Slavery in the Empire was widespread, although some forms of it we might not recognize as such. The most common and recognizable form of slavery was the dazhun or chattel slaves. These were laborers, agricultural workers, and other menials and were often composed of non-goblinoids or of 'barbarian' peoples. The Kobolds of Argonessen were brought over specifically to be slaves of the empire and were considered to be a kind of useful vermin, and were uniformly low on the proverbial totem pole. All kobolds on Khorvaire today are the descendants of these slaves. Orcs too were often used as slaves of the lowest kind although they were simply considered to be violent, savage, and uncouth rather than simply as vermin. Their great strength and relative dimness made them ideal as heavy laborers. The Dhakaani had little use for gnolls, and on more than one occasion they attempted to exterminate them, but to no effect. Likewise, the lizard folk were not usually used as slaves because of the difficulty in keeping them in line. Both gnomes and halflings were brought into the empire as slave species, but they were seldom assigned the role of menial agrarian laborers. Rather they were brought to the cities to work in the factories of the empire. Eventually some of the gnomes managed to make themselves indespensable members of the society, and some even managed to move into the middle classes as merchants and low level civil servants. Gnome psychology (as evidenced by Zilargo) was far more capable of coping with the byzantine legal system of the Empire as well as the complex culture of constantly negotiated status. This may be a good time to mention my understanding of the Dhakaani view of species as it related to social order. In brief, your species didn't matter, even if you were not a goblinoid, all that mattered was your culture. If you were Dhakaani by culture, then you were not a barbarian and thus could be afforded some respect. If you were of a different culture then you were a barbarian regardless of you species. The reason one did not see great hosts of orcs, dwarves, and other Khorvairan humanoids in the empire was their complete inability to adapt to the Imperial culture. The Dhakaani thought themselves to be superior based on their culture, not their genetics. In addition to chattel slavery, there were also what could be called 'household slaves' who often worked as servants or as managers of culturally distastefully businesses. Land management was often the domain of these slaves, as was the running of the more mundane aspects of sanitation and the like. These slaves were allowed a degree of autonomy, being allowed to own other slaves (chattel slaves mostly) and they could own small amounts of property outside of cities. Indeed they were not allowed in the heart of the cities of the empire and could be killed for entering districts barred to them. These slaves were beholden to their masters and were required to turn over their profits to them, as well as having to move about at their masters beck and call. It was illegal for a master to kill this sort of slave, and it was similarly illegal to beat them. Finally, there were the Dazhutraan, the elite slave soldiers of the empire. They were considered to be the property of the Empire itself rather than any one person, even the Empress and the General could not claim to own the Dazhutraan. The Dazhutran could own no property (which was standard for those considered to be of the highest status), nor did they own any of their possessions. Similarly, they were forbidden to make a profit and in most cases they had no money of any kind. It was understood that the empire provided them with everything they would need to survive. Their modes of dress were tightly controlled, and although their clothes were of fine quality, they were minimalistic and somewhat austere. They were forbidden to grow beards, but required otherwise to never cut their hair. They were also required to be armed at all times, and generally slept with a drawn dagger on their chest. It was a sign of discipline among them to be able to sleep without disturbing the dagger. Officially the Dazhutraan are not allowed to participate in politics of any kind, although this was extremely hard to enforce and often counter to their chief purpose, which was to defend the empire at all costs. They were charged with removing rulers from power if their policies were detrimental to the empire , and more than one empress was slain by her Dazhutraan guards for treason against the Empire. This gave them enormous power but it was seldom abused , in part because of the education and indoctrination of the Dazhutraan, and in part because the various choruses (the name for a group of Dazhutraan) were charged with monitoring the others. The Dazhurtraan were not considered to be citizens of the empire, for they had no real rights. At the same time, they were afforded great respect because of their role as 'the immune system of the empire'. -- On Citizenship This is a somewhat complex subject in the empire, with many layers. There were non-citizen residents, resident foreigners, partial citizens, full citizens, and the Dazhutraan which i have already described. non-citizen residents of the empire were culturally Dhakaani but had the misfortune of being born outside of a city. The rural population was considered to be lesser than the urbanized population of the empire, and they were treated accordingly. They were protected by the empire, and they enjoyed the services provided (the roads, the wine, the olive oil, and so on) but they did not have the rights and privileges of other people of the empire. These were some of the largest property holders in the empire, although they had to meet the demands of the empire for agricultural produce. Resident foreigners were barbarians who had voluntarily given up their old culture and adopted that of the Dhakaani. They were somewhat restricted in their movements and in their ability to make money and trade, but they could own small amounts of land, although their usage of it had to be approved by the Empire The partial citizens were the largest segment of the urban population of the empire, and had general freedom of movement and some political rights. They were not allowed to own land other than their houses, although most simply 'rented' their houses from their city. This gave them more status as they were freed of the obligation to the land and could devote themselves more to the culturally more important fields. Most merchants, artisans, skilled laborers, soldiers, and civil servants and the like, belonged to this group. They had access to most parts of any city, the right to petition the courts for serious grievances, and most importantly the right to make a profit by their labors. However, they were denied free access to the courts and were usually not allowed to observe legal proceedings. full citizens were relatively rare in the empire as this form of citizenship had to be earned through dedication to the empire. Some of the more dedicate civil servants attained this rank as did many bards and some merchants. By definition farmers and other rural people could not become citizens unless they were promoted to an urban caste. These citizens had the right of full court access as well as the ability to directly petition the government (although there were lots of forms to fill out) and were not permitted to own property but their housing was covered by their city. -- On the Blue and the Bhuka Blue Theory 1: the blue are a random mutation within the larger goblin population which manifested itself during and after the daelkyr wars especially in the tributary state of Kesh (in what is now Droaam and the eastern Shadowmarches). Blue Theory 2 (thankyou Taski): The Blue represent a population of goblins, possibly from Kesh, who sided with the daelkyr during the Xoriat invasion and recieved their psionic potential as a gift from their insane masters. Bhuka: The Bhuka are natives of the blade desert and equally related to the hobgoblins and the goblins (more distantly related to bugbears) who have become supremely adapted to their environment. Their population has always been small and their location largely isolated them from continental history. They were known of in the Imperial period, but regarded as peaceful, irrelevant barbarians. -- Ok, thats all for now. I would write more but i am suffering from a cold so its off to deal with that.
lordalm 12-04-06, 03:20 PM	I am not sure to what extent the blue where explained in the article. It would make sense that they would be a natural (unnatural) adaptation in the goblin tribes in Sarlona because of the Quori and the Inspired. Fight fire with fire and all that. Of course with those towers of thiers collecting excess psionic energy they probally have a secondary effect of mutating anything living in them, which reideirans are claimed to do. No reason the goblins wouldn't have for the very same reasons.
Darth Syntax 12-04-06, 03:23 PM	Of course this idea of yours then begs the question: What are goblinoids doing on Sarlona?
lordalm 12-04-06, 03:42 PM	Kinda of the same reason the giants are. They took a boat or, in the case of the goblins, they could have walked through khyber to get there.
goblin_pride 12-04-06, 04:40 PM	Kinda of the same reason the giants are. They took a boat or, in the case of the goblins, they could have walked through khyber to get there. Or the Quori wanted test subjects.
lordalm 12-04-06, 05:18 PM	Or the Quori wanted test subjects. Could be....
ArcTan 12-05-06, 02:32 AM	Blues as an artifact of the Daelkyr War seems more likely to me. Keith says that psionics in Eberron is usually extraplanar in origin, but there's (at least) two sources of it: Dal Quor and Xoriat, which represent something like the difference between the preconscious and the unconscious, or the half-submerged, half-uncontrollable part of the mind that lives in dreams and the wholly submerged, wholly uncontrollable part of the mind that lives below that and only emerges in insane people. (Arcane and divine magic thus represent manipulation of power by the fully conscious mind, either the rational forces of arcane magic or the emotional, faith-and-intuition based forces of divine.) Since we have no known contact between the goblinoids and Sarlona or the quori, but we *do* know there was a hell of a lot of contact between Dhakaan and the daelkyr, the blues as a daelkyr artifact make sense. We know the daelkyr have a habit of warping races and creating grotesque parodies of them -- a blue could be some kind of inverse dolgrim that had its mind warped and enhanced, not its body. Or, conversely, the blues could be an attempt by the goblinoids to harness the strange psionic powers of the illithids for their own purposes using advanced Dhakaani technology. Either way it speaks to the blues' strangeness and double nature. I'd imagine that now they're extremely rare, probably the stuff of myth and legend among most goblinoids, though the Dhakaani reclaimers might have some idea of their history and might either seek to regain their power or suppress them as a source of chaos and uncertainty.
Hellcow 12-05-06, 06:41 PM	I just thought that I should finally respond to the invitation, if only to apologize for not having time to respond to the invitation. The goblinoids of Eberron are a subject that is near to my heart, and one that I'd love to explore in more detail. So far I haven't had that opportunity. I didn't actually work on the goblinoid sections in either Player's Guide to Eberron or Races of Eberron, and while I've submitted ideas for Dhakaani articles to Dragon, there's been no luck there. I'd love to do a Lost Civilizations of Eberron sourcebook, and one of my standard convention pick-up games casts the PCs in the role of a Dhakaani strike force (present-day, needless to say). But the issue is one of time, and that's why I've actually been avoiding the thread - because there's a lot I'd like to say about the goblinoids, and frankly, I don't have the time to do it... because I know that if I get started I could easily spend hours and hours debating and discussing, and I just don't have the time right now. I don't even have time to closely review all 17 pages of this thread, although the fact that there ARE 17 pages in this thread only confirms my belief that there are people who would like to see more official love for the goblinoids, if WotC decides to embrace it. In any case, I'm glad the thread exists. Keep up the good work, and let WotC know you want to see more love for goblins. Sovereigns know I'd like to write more about them!
Darth Syntax 12-05-06, 08:30 PM	I agree with ArcTan on the issue of the Blue (by they way, is there a consensus as the the proper plural form for this? I have been using it as a common-number noun, rather like sheep). Given that there is a psionic presence on Khorvaire (the Daelkyr) and given that goblinoids are endemic to that continent, it seems far more likely that the blue were in somewhat caused by the Daelkyr. Blue theory the third: In the years preceding the arrival of the Daelkyr, strange events were common both in and beyond the empire. The Skies would burn with unnatural fire, plagues of madness seemed to sweep the land, only to fade without reason. With all these ill-omened events came the birth of the Blue. Born to ordinary goblin parents, the blue's strange appearance coupled with their mysterious powers made them living portents of some strange upheaval. Most blue who survived the trauma of their childhood, brought on by their visions of doom, and the slow decaying of their own sanity, lived as hermits pursuing the meaning of the vision that dominated their lives. The apocalyptic vision of the blue were devastating to their numbers, and only 1 in every 50-100 blue survive to see adulthood. These visions are erratic and incomprehensible and moreover, they sap the strength and sanity from the young blue. (boring rules stuff here: these visions drain pertinently constitution, 1 point for each vision unless a will save is successful. In the event of a successful save the loss of constitution is only temporary. all this is just an idea). For those blue who do survive the trials of childhood, living in any society it difficult. The have visions of their companions, their city, their friends being destroyed, consumed by horrors beyond understanding. Blue often become obsessed with their visions and almost compulsively seek meaning in them; hoping to find a means to control them. The first step that they often take is to become hermits, hoping that this will end the visions they have of their homes and companions being destroyed. However, little peace is derived in this isolation, and the blue often slip further and further into their own private madness. They begin to create, although they often cannot explain the purpose of their creations. Some paint, others build strange devices or sculpt figures of grotesque and alien geometry, and still others dedicate their lives to the creation of what can only be described as 'eldrich machines' with opaque functions. Today, blue are much as they were, eccentric hermits determined to understand and control their visions. Some are regarded as oracles, others are seen as simply mad. I would like to thank Aughra from The Dark Crystal, Ben Hawkins from Carnevale, and a host of other random sources for this. -- Well, that went on a bit longer than I had originally intended. Hellcow: thankyou for your words of encouragement. -- We now return to our regularly scheduled thread.
ArcTan 12-05-06, 10:41 PM	The apocalyptic vision of the blue were devastating to their numbers, and only 1 in every 50-100 blue survive to see adulthood. These visions are erratic and incomprehensible and moreover, they sap the strength and sanity from the young blue. (boring rules stuff here: these visions drain pertinently constitution, 1 point for each vision unless a will save is successful. In the event of a successful save the loss of constitution is only temporary. all this is just an idea). For those blue who do survive the trials of childhood, living in any society it difficult. The have visions of their companions, their city, their friends being destroyed, consumed by horrors beyond understanding. I like this concept a lot, though, of course, a playable blue character would have reached adulthood and already lived through their quota of visions, making this less of a problem. I'd like to point out, though, that D&D usually represents insanity by Wisdom loss rather than Constitution loss, which makes a little more sense -- your ability to perceive and understand the world is what takes the hit, not your physical body, and you waste away because you stop taking care of yourself and attending to your physical needs, not because of direct physical trauma. (While going to 0 Con is the only way ability loss can outright kill you, going to 0 Wis throws you into a coma from which there's no coming back, which in most societies means you waste away and starve to death pretty fast. Hell, someone who even drops below 4 Wis is probably on the verge of letting himself starve or die of disease while tormented by raving and screaming.) I do also like the idea of simply calling them the "blue" (as short for "blue goblins"). The Dhakaani probably referred to them as such, as though "the blue" were some kind of spreading plague, like "the Black Death". Blue often become obsessed with their visions and almost compulsively seek meaning in them; hoping to find a means to control them. The first step that they often take is to become hermits, hoping that this will end the visions they have of their homes and companions being destroyed. However, little peace is derived in this isolation, and the blue often slip further and further into their own private madness. They begin to create, although they often cannot explain the purpose of their creations. Some paint, others build strange devices or sculpt figures of grotesque and alien geometry, and still others dedicate their lives to the creation of what can only be described as 'eldrich machines' with opaque functions. Mechanically -- well, okay, it's flavor and not mechanics, but in "Eberron physics" -- the reason for the blue's birth in this case would simply be proximity to a Xoriat manifest zone while the plane was moving toward a coterminous state. Right now Xoriat is remote, but unlike with Dal Quor, the Gatekeepers lacked the power to make this a permanent state, so Xoriat still *has* a connection to Eberron and blues can still be born and access their power. Xoriat's current remoteness means that no new goblin bloodlines are being infected with corruption from Xoriat and no new blue bloodlines are being formed, but if Xoriat should start to swing back again -- as it someday inevitably will -- and herald the return of the daelkyr, new goblin families will suddenly find themselves with blue children. This will be the first sign of a coming apocalypse, and sadly probably only a few Dhakaani reclaimer sages will know anything about what it means, and the Five Nations won't at all be willing to listen to them. The Gatekeepers might, but the Gatekeepers' remaining strongholds of power are quite far from the caves of the Dhakaani clans. I smell a quest.
Darth Syntax 12-05-06, 10:49 PM	The idea behind the con-loss was to indicate that the visions make them physically ill and eventually lead to nervous system problems and brain-death. The physical condition of the brain might indeed make them act more and more insane, but the damage is physical, not mental. On the issue of Xoriat manifest zones and new blue while it is true that the drawing-nearer of Xoriat lead to the initial birth of the blue, we have to remember that there are still Daelkyr imprisoned on Eberron, and their presence alone might be enough to trigger the birth of new blue. All that said I like your idea of an increase in the number of blue being a harbinger of the return of Xoriat.
ArcTan 12-05-06, 11:17 PM	The idea behind the con-loss was to indicate that the visions make them physically ill and eventually lead to nervous system problems and brain-death. The physical condition of the brain might indeed make them act more and more insane, but the damage is physical, not mental. Sure. It's not like WotC is entirely consistent with this, either. Still, the overwhelming majority of things that do similar things -- forms of corrupting, damaging insanity -- in the game do Wisdom damage or drain. The default effect of things like being attacked and killed by quori in dreams, experiencing a _nightmare_ spell, getting attacked by beings of madness like allips, etc. is Wis damage. It's implied that "nervous system problems" are, in fact, Wis damage rather than Con damage (which is more like problems with the heart and lungs). However, variant mechanics like Taint and Depravity from HoH or Insanity from UA (imported from Call of Cthulhu) make even more sense than Wis drain, so whatever.
Darth Syntax 12-06-06, 01:08 AM	Well I've gone and explained myself poorly again. When I spoke of nervous-system damage in reference to the blue I was thinking more alone the lines of MS, Parkinson's, and other degenerative diseases. They would experience crippling headaches, phantom pains, tremors, and a general physical degradation. Sadly, their minds would remain generally as alert as ever, but they would eventually be consumed by their afflictions. Sorry for my poor explanations.
goblin_pride 12-06-06, 02:55 AM	When I spoke of nervous-system damage in reference to the blue I was thinking more alone the lines of MS, Parkinson's, and other degenerative diseases. They would experience crippling headaches, phantom pains, tremors, and a general physical degradation. Sadly, their minds would remain generally as alert as ever, but they would eventually be consumed by their afflictions. I like this alot, it plays well against the Dhakaani pursuit of physical, mental and spiritual perfection. The mind of a blue may be far advanced of any other Dhakaani, but they pay for it by the body slowly wasting away leaving no means to support the mind. By making a blue more like an aberration than a normal citizen you make them something to be feared and shunned and therefore any role they have as a harbinger may well be ignored.
goblin_pride 12-06-06, 03:31 AM	I don't even have time to closely review all 17 pages of this thread, although the fact that there ARE 17 pages in this thread only confirms my belief that there are people who would like to see more official love for the goblinoids, if WotC decides to embrace it. The fact that there are 17 pages just shows that some of us are more of the artifact and archaeology type gamers. Without any official source of material to base our adventures off, we're simply making it up and sharing with other like-minded* individuals. *Arctan counts as like-minded in that he's trying to create an empire of the dhakaani, I still think the genetic speciation is nuts.
ArcTan 12-06-06, 04:06 AM	Well I've gone and explained myself poorly again. When I spoke of nervous-system damage in reference to the blue I was thinking more alone the lines of MS, Parkinson's, and other degenerative diseases. They would experience crippling headaches, phantom pains, tremors, and a general physical degradation. Sadly, their minds would remain generally as alert as ever, but they would eventually be consumed by their afflictions. Sorry for my poor explanations. Hmm. Tremors and such sound more naturally like Dex than Con damage, though. Whatever. It's not all that important, and I actually think we could do a lot with the daelkyr by taking Taint rules and importing them to Eberron, and associating all this kind of "madness" with Depravity, which is a lot more interesting on paper than simply lowering a single number is.
Darth Syntax 12-06-06, 11:33 AM	I agree that the taint and depravity rules might well come into play. My only real issue with them is that they are often not subtle enough for my tastes.
eehamburg 12-06-06, 11:50 AM	The fact that there are 17 pages just shows that some of us are more of the artifact and archaeology type gamers. Without any official source of material to base our adventures off, we're simply making it up and sharing with other like-minded* individuals. There is also the fact that ... to make a good campaign now, it helps to flesh out and utilize history. Even in our own society, nothing that we do now has not been touched by something that has been done in history. Everything is connected. ... so if we make a campaign in the present, then there had to have been something in the past that would make the present campaign happen. On the road of life, you don't know where you are going if you don't know where you have been. BTW...as a side note ... back from the cruise ... so back in Philly ... went from 80 degrees to 30 degrees in a 2 hour flight ... now, that's magic :)
ArcTan 12-06-06, 03:43 PM	There is also the fact that ... to make a good campaign now, it helps to flesh out and utilize history. Even in our own society, nothing that we do now has not been touched by something that has been done in history. Everything is connected. ... so if we make a campaign in the present, then there had to have been something in the past that would make the present campaign happen. On the road of life, you don't know where you are going if you don't know where you have been. Sure, although moderation is always important. The actual experience of the campaign should come before the intricate world you've built to support it, and you should be willing to alter any details necessary to give your players a good time -- you should never forget that the "world" of an RPG ultimately exists around the players and for their benefit.
goblin_pride 12-06-06, 04:09 PM	Sure, although moderation is always important. The actual experience of the campaign should come before the intricate world you've built to support it, and you should be willing to alter any details necessary to give your players a good time -- you should never forget that the "world" of an RPG ultimately exists around the players and for their benefit. One and the other are not inseperable, the world you build will build the campaign. The ruins of the past will be forever there, watching the events of the present, silent sentinels of the passing of history. This day or the thousands past, the ruins will have seen all. In another millenium, you will be long since gone and they will remember you as well. How they remember you is another story.....
eehamburg 12-06-06, 05:08 PM	One and the other are not inseperable, the world you build will build the campaign. I agree with this ... the 2 can be completely intertwined. That is why I think that this thread is so great. Once you have a multitude of history behind it explaining the empire, the adventures that can occur either looking for old relics or agents trying to reclaim the past or searching for something of use or whatever the effect to even coloring a character can be made to be great. The ruins of the past will be forever there, watching the events of the present, silent sentinels of the passing of history. This day or the thousands past, the ruins will have seen all. In another millenium, you will be long since gone and they will remember you as well. How they remember you is another story..... Where is that quote from or did you make it up yourself?
Darth Syntax 12-06-06, 05:58 PM	For me, the speculation and the creative effort of making the world is actually far more interesting than playing the game. Actually, see making the histories, religions, philosophies, sciences, languages and all as a game.
goblin_pride 12-06-06, 06:08 PM	Where is that quote from or did you make it up yourself? Sadly, that's not a quote. I wish it was, being able to tack on a name of reknown would give it a far more dignified air. I did however draw heavily on the Arabic sentiments on the pyramids but I just couldn't remember the saying verbatim*. *man may wait on time, but time waits on the pyramids.
goblin_pride 12-06-06, 06:14 PM	For me, the speculation and the creative effort of making the world is actually far more interesting than playing the game. Actually, see making the histories, religions, philosophies, sciences, languages and all as a game. Each has it's place, but creating the world is sometimes more difficult in that the world is a far bigger canvas than we'd like and leaving the blank spots along the edges guarantees that's the spot the players will want to explore. It's one of those Murphy's law situations....
Darth Syntax 12-06-06, 06:20 PM	I am of the opinion that the world in not for the players, the players are for the world. This is the opinion of the whole of my very tiny gaming group, we have characters so that we have reference points for the discussion of the history, politics and everything else. Now that's not to say that playing the game isn't fun, but i honestly can't recall the last time anything like a dungeon crawl occurred, although I fondly recall an adventure involving a Cyran cypher-device and the ensuing discussion of cryptography in Eberron (from the perspective of the characters).
eehamburg 12-06-06, 06:34 PM	For me, the speculation and the creative effort of making the world is actually far more interesting than playing the game. Actually, see making the histories, religions, philosophies, sciences, languages and all as a game. I am of the opinion that the world in not for the players, the players are for the world. This is the opinion of the whole of my very tiny gaming group, we have characters so that we have reference points for the discussion of the history, politics and everything else. Now that's not to say that playing the game isn't fun, but i honestly can't recall the last time anything like a dungeon crawl occurred, although I fondly recall an adventure involving a Cyran cypher-device and the ensuing discussion of cryptography in Eberron (from the perspective of the characters). Why do I find myself strangely and completely agreeing with these comments? I find creating a world can be just as fun and as interesting as playing in it.... and playing in the world becomes even more fun once you have given it life.
goblin_pride 12-06-06, 06:38 PM	The biggest problem I've ever run into with the Dhakaani was the span of time. I'm not in the slightest interested in abbreviating it, I rather enjoy the thought that the empire ruled over a period longer than the recorded history of the earth. The problem with the timespan is that it offers the space for dozens if not hundreds of major shifts in the history of the empire. Radical changes in the government, politics, philosophical ideals and culture would be too easy to fit in without worry because no matter what you change, the empire carries on. Time periods like the Pax Romana and the Tokugawa shogunate would be mere footnotes in Dhakaani history. With a canvas so large to paint, where does one begin? The issue of ruins is another great stumbling block as well. Ruins such as the coloseum in Rome are excellent as examples of people living alongside the bones of an ancient empire. But think about this for a brief moment, the coloseum is a mere two millenia old, it fell into ruin sometime after 450 AD. Picture for a moment living alongside buildings that were built five or six millenia ago and are still in use today. It boggles the mind to imagine it. Even the Pyramids at Giza can't claim that great an age. With such a vast spread of time to build, the empire would have a vibrant history of building and rebuilding, with new buildings being built on the foundations of the building's they're replacing. And yet still we try, knowing full well that the things we build today might live out the full passage of time or be torn down when the fashions change.....
Shady314 12-06-06, 09:55 PM	The biggest problem I've ever run into with the Dhakaani was the span of time. I'm not in the slightest interested in abbreviating it, I rather enjoy the thought that the empire ruled over a period longer than the recorded history of the earth. The problem with the timespan is that it offers the space for dozens if not hundreds of major shifts in the history of the empire. Radical changes in the government, politics, philosophical ideals and culture would be too easy to fit in without worry because no matter what you change, the empire carries on. Time periods like the Pax Romana and the Tokugawa shogunate would be mere footnotes in Dhakaani history. With a canvas so large to paint, where does one begin? The issue of ruins is another great stumbling block as well. Ruins such as the coloseum in Rome are excellent as examples of people living alongside the bones of an ancient empire. But think about this for a brief moment, the coloseum is a mere two millenia old, it fell into ruin sometime after 450 AD. Picture for a moment living alongside buildings that were built five or six millenia ago and are still in use today. It boggles the mind to imagine it. Even the Pyramids at Giza can't claim that great an age. With such a vast spread of time to build, the empire would have a vibrant history of building and rebuilding, with new buildings being built on the foundations of the building's they're replacing. And yet still we try, knowing full well that the things we build today might live out the full passage of time or be torn down when the fashions change..... The Dhakaani did have the means to craft artifacts. Perhaps this incredibly ability could be extended to their more important architecture. Not quite making them magical but lasting far longer than would realistically be possible.
goblin_pride 12-07-06, 09:43 AM	The Dhakaani did have the means to craft artifacts. Perhaps this incredibly ability could be extended to their more important architecture. Not quite making them magical but lasting far longer than would realistically be possible. My problem isn't the longevity, it's the finite amount of space and the near infinite amount of time.
goblin_pride 12-08-06, 12:16 AM	Here's a little tidbit for you to use in your own game: Garivik, a one-eyed Half-orc originally hailing from the Shadow Marches has begun selling maps to the Dhakaani ruins in the Seawall mountains. The only problem is that the information he's been paying a Kalkor for is somewhat flawed, alot of the "ancient sites" are actually inhabited villages belonging to the Dhakaani remnant clans. The maps themselves are quite good, detailing the location of about 20 Dhakaani villages, the mines that supply the mineral wealth to the cities of Volaar Draal and Serenity, and the location of the fortress-bastion of the Elo'khesh at Serenity. Rumor has been spreading of "painted goblins" asking about the maps and Garivik has been avoiding his regular haunts since his Kalkor informant was found impaled in a marketplace, still alive with his skin peeled off most of his body. The Kalkor clan isn't happy with one of theirs being so grievously assualted and hope to find either Garivik or the goblins responsible before their kinsman dies.
Alex_ 12-08-06, 11:53 AM	The biggest problem I've ever run into with the Dhakaani was the span of time. I'm not in the slightest interested in abbreviating it, I rather enjoy the thought that the empire ruled over a period longer than the recorded history of the earth. The problem with the timespan is that it offers the space for dozens if not hundreds of major shifts in the history of the empire. Radical changes in the government, politics, philosophical ideals and culture would be too easy to fit in without worry because no matter what you change, the empire carries on. Time periods like the Pax Romana and the Tokugawa shogunate would be mere footnotes in Dhakaani history. With a canvas so large to paint, where does one begin? Perhaps there was no change? The length of time suggests that either one thing was done correctly for a very long time, or a long string of things were done correctly for a long period of time in order for the Dhakaani Empire to remain a recognizable entity. Rather than numerous radical changes that one way or another resulted in the continued unity and rule of the Empire, I think it more likely that the Empire remained quite stable throughout its entirety, with any radical changes being more geographically (as well as temporally) isolated. I don’t see the Dhakaani being a dictatorship one century, and a Republic the next, or undergoing a religious revival for several generations, followed by reactionary agnostic/atheist attitudes. There may have been some population centers with ideas similar to >>insert Human social phenomena here<< but the movement would most likely be quickly and readily overwhelmed by the massive force that was the Dhakaani Empire’s military Power/Cultural influence to the point where the movement would have no real impact outside of the population center that originally spawned it, and would go generally unknown by the general populace and history. I’m seeing many Salem Witchhunts, Shay’s Rebellion, and Waco-style incidents as opposed to something like the European Renaissances or US Great Awakening. Changes that did take place within Dhakaani society were very slow and subtle, and would have been almost unrecognizable to the average citizen. The issue of ruins is another great stumbling block as well. Ruins such as the coloseum in Rome are excellent as examples of people living alongside the bones of an ancient empire. But think about this for a brief moment, the coloseum is a mere two millenia old, it fell into ruin sometime after 450 AD. Picture for a moment living alongside buildings that were built five or six millenia ago and are still in use today. It boggles the mind to imagine it. Even the Pyramids at Giza can't claim that great an age. With such a vast spread of time to build, the empire would have a vibrant history of building and rebuilding, with new buildings being built on the foundations of the building's they're replacing. And yet still we try, knowing full well that the things we build today might live out the full passage of time or be torn down when the fashions change..... In Eberron, there are ruins dating back over a million years from the Age of Demons that are still more or less intact (enough to be explored by adventurers). For whatever reasons, structures in Eberron last a VERY long time. Just as Sharn is connected to the plane of Sky to enable impossibly tall towers and skycoaches, and Aerenal to the plane of death to enable deathless and powerful necromancy, the world itself is tied to the Progenitor Wyrm Eberron, thus giving all things in it (stone, wood, and other building materials) ridiculously long endurance compared to the real world. …………………………………………………………………………………………. Any information regarding Imperial architecture would also help shine more light on how their society worked. With a less dynamic and more stable society, they might see themselves as living alongside the thousand year old remains of another age in Dhakaani history. Dhakaani history is still being made. The millennia old coliseum wouldn’t be “THE Coliseum of XYZ”, it would be a coliseum like any other. There might be a shop down the street that’s managed to stay standing for even longer. I’m not imagining the creation of monuments to particular achievements in Dhakaani history or memorials to influential leaders. There may have been monuments to the deities or the Empire itself, but these were consistent with Dhakaani culture independent of time and place. In this instance, it wouldn’t be like humans, who treat older structures as special and revered places and intentionally set them aside for renovation or as historic sites. Or the opposite where historic structures are considered an obstacle or foundation, and new structures built into/ontop of them if the older structures aren’t removed outright. In general, the human concepts of nostalgia and remembrance of older times would be absent in the Dhakaani’s cultural psychology.
Darth Syntax 12-08-06, 03:52 PM	Considering the absurd time-depth of the Empire, some ideas (in addition to my previous suggestion of truncation and all that) have come to mind. I. The Cycles of the Empire The historical entity known now as the Dhakaani empire was actually a succession of many hundreds of distinct political and cultural units inhabiting the southern portions of Khorvaire. During some golden age, scholars of one of these states looked back over the whole of history and began to construct a kind of meta-polity as an historical narrative. Each of the successive states, empires, whatever, was seen as being an inherently necessary step towards the inevitable creation of the state of this hypothetical golden age. Think of this like the succession of the Dynasties in China, or some European scholar seeing the Athenian Empire, the Alexandrine Empire, the Hellenistic civilization, The Romans, The Holy Roman Empire, the various medieval countries, the rise of state-hood and nationalism of the early modern and modern periods, and finally a kind of peaceful unity (like the EU) as being inevitable stages in the development of the same civilization. Granted this is a kind of over-simplification but this is just an argument by analogy. So when historians speak of the Dhakaani Empire, they are speaking of something more akin to say "Western Civilization" or something of that nature. II. Corrupt, Stagnant, Opulence Imagine the Empire as a kind of massive Gormenghast, tied to all manner of absurd rituals, practices and social customs that are so baroque and complex that they little drag the whole civilization down. The Dhakaani, in this version, effectively imprisoned themselves in their own culture and were incapable of change. This gives the Empire more of a 'Dying Earth' feel perhaps, but it might prove instructive.
goblin_pride 12-08-06, 04:08 PM	The historical entity known now as the Dhakaani empire was actually a succession of many hundreds of distinct political and cultural units inhabiting the southern portions of Khorvaire. This is closer to what I had in mind, rather than one large unified culture in the empire, each of it's member-states and divisions would have a culture independant of the Imperial core culture. While the Dhakaani core may fit into Darth Syntax's "perfect society" model, other portions of the empire might have a culture viewed as barbaric in the capitol.
Darth Syntax 12-08-06, 04:24 PM	I wasn't talking about member-states though but rather a historical progression something like the following: dynasty 1 > period of chaos > 43 city-states > Unification > period of Stability with Dynasties 2-6 > another period of chaos > Unification under Empire 1 > period of chaos > 5 states and lots of wars > Unification again > Empire 2 . . . . (history happens) > Empire 21b > chaos > 6 states > cocktail party > Philosophical Empire of the Golden Age > Daelkyr Wars > period of Chaos > lots of little states > period of forgetting of all previous history > barbarism . . . My descriptions of the Empire (following this model) refer only to the Philosophical Empire of the Golden Age.
goblin_pride 12-08-06, 04:31 PM	So when historians speak of the Dhakaani Empire, they are speaking of something more akin to say "Western Civilization" or something of that nature. Utilizing the Dhakaani empire in more broad strokes like this would seem to make more sense. There's still the glory of "the empire" without the need for it to be one continuous ruling body for the entire run of it's 11,000 years. Maintaining the Dhakaani name would be simple enough, the imperial seat was occupied for the entire run of the empire but during portions of it's long history it would be divided between warring factions seeking the imperial mandate to rule. Fighting among the rulers under the emperor's banner was nothing more than diplomacy within the empire retreating to it's last bastion. While the emperor had the authority to demand wars within the empire to be settled, often times it would be in the empire's best interest to let them run their course to allow new blood to be infused into the leadership of the empire.
goblin_pride 12-08-06, 04:34 PM	My descriptions of the Empire (following this model) refer only to the Philosophical Empire of the Golden Age. Ahh, I see. The empire you posted was just a small portion of the long history rather than being the pattern for the full run of the empire.
Darth Syntax 12-08-06, 05:11 PM	Indeed. Granted the history of said empire was about 3500 years and was the lens through which the rest of the history was understood. This is still a hugely successful state and (in my version of the world) the sort of empire the Kech Volaar wish to recreate. Dhakaan herself lived (supposedly) in the early period of this 3500 year empire and her philosophy was retroactively applied to the previous cultures back into the remote past. These older political states were seen as the precursors to both the philosophy of Dhakaani, and the Empire. Granted this is all under this new model. Under my old model there was no retroactive historical weirdness, but rather a mythic exaggeration for dramatic effect. I am currently attempting to merge the two together in some way, so, who knows whats going to happen.
goblin_pride 12-08-06, 05:20 PM	Granted this is all under this new model. Under my old model there was no retroactive historical weirdness, but rather a mythic exaggeration for dramatic effect. I am currently attempting to merge the two together in some way, so, who knows whats going to happen. Don't you hate it when you get an idea that seems to throw most of the older stuff you've written on the scrapheap?
goblin_pride 12-08-06, 05:35 PM	Dhakaan herself lived (supposedly) in the early period of this 3500 year empire and her philosophy was retroactively applied to the previous cultures back into the remote past. The idea of a mystic stepping out of the crowd and unifying the warring states is a wonderful foundation for the empire. I took that as also the founding of the line of Dhakaan, the unbroken line from the first empress, the uncrowned, through the final battle in which the Daelkyr forces overran the capitol-in-exile at Cazhaak Draal. The lesser Dhakaani lines, the bloodlines descended from the brothers, sisters and cousins of emperors soon came to the forefront as the only source of reaffirming and restoring the empire. The fueding heirs to the imperial throne tore at the fringes of the empire trying to lay claim to it, all the while unravelling the great empire.
goblin_pride 12-08-06, 05:53 PM	I took that as also the founding of the line of Dhakaan, the unbroken line from the first empress, the uncrowned, through the final battle in which the Daelkyr forces overran the capitol-in-exile at Cazhaak Draal. A brief thought on the heir to the imperial throne. Tradition holds that the rule of the empire is passed according to the instructions of the third emperor, who on his deathbed was asked "who should rule after you?". His reply was "the fittest". Competition within the imperial household is fierce to prove fitness to rule, prompting the children of the emperor to attempt to prove themselves the fittest by excelling in the fields of art, literature, music, philosophy, mathematics, history, the sciences, dance and even warfare in a rare few cases. The throne is passed from the reigning emperor or empress to the fittest of the children of the imperial line and affirmed by the council of Six, representing the six original tribes unified under the Dhakaan.
Darth Syntax 12-08-06, 06:36 PM	Those are some interesting and cool ideas, and I think they really fit with your imagining of the Empire. I especially like the "rule of the fittest" bit and I can see that death-bed scene becoming ritualized in the coronation rites. My own take on things is a bit different but that's to be expected considering out differing views on the particulars of the empire. At some point, I would like to discuss the philosophy and metaphysical concepts of the empire, although I am not yet sure when that will be. But I promise to finally explain the obsession with wheels and bells.
goblin_pride 12-08-06, 10:52 PM	I especially like the "rule of the fittest" bit and I can see that death-bed scene becoming ritualized in the coronation rites. I stole that from Alexander the Great of Macedonia. But if I recall correctly, I think he said "the best" according to Ptolemy. Feel free to steal it for yourself.
lordalm 12-09-06, 06:22 PM	I'd like to address a couple of ideas that keep coming up in the last couple of posts. Well actually stumbling blocks. The length of the empire and its preceived lack of ruins. I think we already covered the whole "humans just took over the old cities and built upon them" ala Sharn. Not to mention raiding the old places for building materials. One of the reasons we still have some of the ancient ruins in the real world, is the quality of construction, and the materials used. As I recall most of the damage that occured to Greek and Roman edifices was as much to human hands as the forces of time and nature. Many of the eidifices we still have of the romans is because they used concrete in thier construction. Now from some of the novels I have read that dealt with various subjects but included Dhakaani ruins. These relics of the empire were either constructed underground (a goblinoid city in the Lhazar Principalities construtced in a hollowed out cavern), over grown (an ancient hobgoblin artificers workshop, about the size of town by the way), or just some ruins that the races that came after (the stilt city in the Shadow Marches that I can't recall the name of) built upon. So they are there they just haven't really been addressed. As I have posted before, if you live right next to the leaning tower of Pizza, you probally just grumble at the annoying tourists. Now as to how the structures of the empire last. I would subscribe to the theory that the Dhakaani (wether as one continious organizations or rerelizations of different groups under the same name) just kept using the same edificies over and over. It was implied that the Dhakaani were great builders but thier aritecture was uniform and blunt. Similiar to what you'd find in the subbasement of a highrise, just no cable runs or piping. Of course the Dhakaani weren't using concrete they used shaped blocks of stone, similiar to what the Egyptions and similiar ancient cultures did in thier construction. Repairs being conducted as a matter of course, what ever the state of the empire politically. After all it took 3000 years or so for the empire to finally die after the war. Considering how long in the fantasy worlds things continoue without change it not hard to imagine life just going along day to day. The amount of inovation shown in Khorvaire in the last 100 years would be similiar to the Industrial Revolution in the real world and just as dramatic in its impact on the world. Lightning Rail, Airships? Khorvaire I would sumerise holds a lot of similarities with the 1800's in the real world.
goblin_pride 12-10-06, 02:06 AM	A bit of technology of the empire. During the rise of the empire, while the borders weren't completely continuous a weapon of some great power was developed. A goblin with some degree of skill in the arcane arts created an object he called a Fireglobe. Originally shunned by the Hobgoblin commanders in the armies, they quickly found widespread use among the goblins of the army for the massive amounts of devastation they could wreak on the enemy's defenses. A fireglobe is a bit of an odd piece of military equipment, a small clay globe about the right size to hold in the hand. When the command word is spoken and it's hurled at an enemy's position, it bursts in a cataclysm of flame and devastates the area. Quite useful in the taking of enemy cities because a goblin sneaking into the city at night can drop Fireglobes down the chimneys of the enemy's barracks and eliminate most of the defenders quickly and effieciently. Called a Gre'naad in tribute to the goblin that first created them, the use of a fireglobe is simple. Take it in hand, Shout the command word, "Gre'Naad" loud enough so that others in your unit know you're tossing one and throw it with enough force to crack the clay of the globe. While the command word needs only to be spoken, most goblin military units shout it as a warning. Infiltrators have said that whispering the command word works just as well. I don't understand exactly how they work. From my understanding, the globes are imbued with a bit of their maker's arcane power that only work when the globe is activated and then broken. I can tell you this though, I have seen these things used to great effect. A goblin trooper hurling gre'naads just before a swell of bugbear shock troops can shatter an enemy's resolve in ways that nothing else in this world can. And the ability to freely distribute a wizard's power among common troops with little to no training required to use is a great advantage.
Thramzorean 12-10-06, 10:02 PM	A point on the architecture. When the golinoid ruins are discussed it's the 'monolithic' buildings built into the rock. I would say it's quite clear that the Dhakaan empire's architecture style was built for durability and millenia of use. When you start counting them up there are a lot of ruins of an ancient destroyed empire still around even with the limited material on the subject. Especially when you consider many -> most of them were probably below ground to start with.
goblin_pride 12-11-06, 04:26 PM	A point on the architecture. When the golinoid ruins are discussed it's the 'monolithic' buildings built into the rock. I would say it's quite clear that the Dhakaan empire's architecture style was built for durability and millenia of use. The monolithic appearance would be a small matter of the decorative elements wearing away, decaying or being carted off to build something else over the millenia since they were occupied by the Dhakaani. I personally always saw the bare, monolithic nature of the buildings as the bones of what was originally highly ornate and decorative. Obviously larger structures are going to seem monolithic if you strip away the facing. I can see Dhakaani buildings using plaster and paint, hand-carved stone and even carved wooden decorations do make each building more pleasing to the eye. I still can't picture the bulk of the population living in caves and caverns as a standard. The basis for the belief they lived underground is because the large stones that make the foundations of the Dhakaani fortresses are still present but the wooden structures built on top have long since rotted away. The appearance of these older fortresses, built of raised stone foundations would look like gatehouses to people unfamiliar with Dhakaani architecture, since portions of them have collapsed or filled in with the debris from the upper floors.
Darth Syntax 12-12-06, 12:05 AM	I agree that the whole concept of a completely underground empire doesn't sit all that well. This is partly for aesthetic reasons, but I would like to think that pragmatic concerns weigh heavily on this as well. Other than a combination of tradition and darkvision (which I have removed from all goblinoids in my games, replacing it with low-light vision) there is not pragmatic reason for goblinoids to be subterranean. They are not well adapted to cave life, and frankly, craving all those caves would be an enormous undertaking. Living underground also poses some problems from the standpoint of trade and agriculture. The growth of foodstuffs would be difficult at best, and the building of road networks to move said food about would be a nightmare underground. Additionally, the underground in Eberron is none too safe, so its probably best avoided if at all possible. Now, onto the issue of the seeming lack of ruins. It has been thousands of years sense the fall of the empire, and wars, erosion, plant growth, and the reusing of old materials and sites could well account for the general lack of ruins in the modern world. Additionally, it could be that the ruins of the old cities are in somewhat unreachable places. In my version of the world one could visit the ruins of the ancient capital of the empire, if one had the ability to dive to the bottom of Lake Brey and poke about in the layers of sediment. Those ruins that do survive are mostly the old foundations of cities along with the storage vaults, cellars, and sewers, all of which were built below ground so as to be out of the way. The vaults especially hold quite a lot in the way of artifacts, and are often explored and studied. The fact that the corridors are often decorated and the like has led to the erroneous conclusion on the part of many modern historians that the Dhakaani lived underground.
goblin_pride 12-12-06, 03:21 PM	In my version of the world one could visit the ruins of the ancient capital of the empire, if one had the ability to dive to the bottom of Lake Brey and poke about in the layers of sediment. I went a completely different way with this. I put the Dhakaani capitol right where Great Crag is in modern Droaam. It made sense to me that the Capitol would've been a choice prize* for the Daelkyr and that the Hags would've chosen their Capitol based on the importance it played in the struggle between the Daelkyr aberrations and the Dhakaani. With the ancient capitol in Droaam, it sets the stage for conflict in the future if the Dhakaani ever manage to begin the rebuilding of the empire. The Imperial regalia, however, was never found. * the other great prize was the petrified body of the last emperor who was personally leading the armies of the empire from his capitol-in-exile at Cazhaak Draal. When the Daelkyr lords loosed the Medusae and their minions on that city, the emperor was among the casualties, prompting the succession wars that tore the empire apart.
Darth Syntax 12-12-06, 03:29 PM	Ah, in my imagining of the empire, what is now Droaam was the client-state of Kesh, considered to be a barbaric land full of backwards people. The reason there are so many fortresses there is that the Dhakaani were taking the mineral wealth from the area and needed a means of securing this.
goblin_pride 12-12-06, 03:51 PM	Ah, in my imagining of the empire, what is now Droaam was the client-state of Kesh, considered to be a barbaric land full of backwards people. The reason there are so many fortresses there is that the Dhakaani were taking the mineral wealth from the area and needed a means of securing this. I was thinking about where the Daelkyr first entered Eberron when I placed the Dhakaani capitol and the thought of the Daelkyr suddenly appearing so close to the capitol would make the war a desperate struggle to survive. With the bulk of the Dhakaani armies on the frontiers of the empire it would take time to get word to them that the capitol was under siege and march back to retake it. We already know from the canon that the Dhakaani were losing badly before the orcs stepped in and began trapping the Daelkyr, so having the capitol of the empire in it's later period built right on the manifest zone of Xoriat seemed like a logical idea to me. The ruins of fortresses could have been a later addition, built after the destruction of the Capitol but before the sack of Cazhaak Draal.
Darth Syntax 12-12-06, 04:30 PM	The Daelkyr Wars have been much in my mind of late, and I have come to severeal conclusions, based on my thoughts about the Dhakaani empire as the nature of the Daelkyr themselves. The Wars were not conventional conflicts by any means, as such a thing seems far too 'comprehensible for the lords of Xoriat. Had it been a conventional war, the Empire might well have won, they could have pushed the invaders back and held their ground, but the Daelkyr do not fight on the field like other foes. The Daelkyr Wars began as plagues of madness, whole cities tore them selves apart as the grip of insanity fell on them. People gouged out their own eyes to try to stop the horrific visions, but nothing seemed to work. Then, when the population was softened (like clay is softened with the hands) with madness, the Daelkyr would arrive to perform their art. To think like a Daelkyr is to think aesthetically, all they care about is their own, horribly alien, sense of beauty. All that is not shaped, not molded by their hands, is unbearably ugly to them, and so it must be remade in a pleasing shape. The Daelkyr came to Eberron as artists, as sculptors, but the clay resisted; it did not want to be shaped. Slowly, the Daelkyr worked their art on Eberron, softening the minds and the bodies of its people so they could remake them in pleasing shapes. They created, they remade the world everywhere they touched it, they made it beautiful. But the clay did not wish to yield to them, it wished to remain raw and unfinished, but the clay did not know how to resist. How do you fight a foe that has no armies, who preys on your thoughts and drives you mad with images of terrible, unspeakable beauty? What good are swords and gunpowder against such foes, what good even are ideas of harmony and order against the tide of madness? Like a disease the Daelkyr and the minions spread, some took great delight in simple destruction of the unfinished and ugly world; they tore down cities, killed untold millions with all the care of a child stepping on snails. Others delighted in punishing the unfinished for their ugliness, forcing them to become slaves, that they might be educated as to their folly. Throughout the empire, factions arose who were loyal to the thoughts of the invaders, they had been driven mad by visions of alien beauty and desired to bring it to pass. So the Empire had its own people to fight in addition to the invaders who seemingly could not be stopped. Civil war erupted, the madness spread, and by the time the Gatekeepers had sealed the Daelkyr in Khyber or sent them back to Xoriat, the damage had already been done. The last Empress, in her own madness, had ordered the destruction of Hankarash (the capital) so that it might not fall to her unknown enemies. Her guards were already possessed by the visions of alien beauty, and willingly set about the task. The foundations of the city were destroyed, and the great city fell apart and sank to the bottom of the lake. Roads had been torn up, hoping to stem the tide of the mind-disease (for it was erroneously thought to be a disease like any other that might be stopped by quarantine), farms were burned, the empire was in ruins; destroyed from within by the madness that overtook them.
goblin_pride 12-12-06, 05:25 PM	The Daelkyr Wars have been much in my mind of late, and I have come to severeal conclusions, based on my thoughts about the Dhakaani empire as the nature of the Daelkyr themselves. The Wars were not conventional conflicts by any means, as such a thing seems far too 'comprehensible for the lords of Xoriat. Had it been a conventional war, the Empire might well have won, they could have pushed the invaders back and held their ground, but the Daelkyr do not fight on the field like other foes. I like the turn you've taken on this but the destination seems a bit too far. The Daelkyr were the lords of Madness, yes, but the troops on the field weren't all daelkyr. The canon even talks about the Daelkyr wars as being more conventional than what you've come up with. It's an excellent idea and I plan on using it my own game but not to the extent you've gone with it. The Daelkyr would use some conventional tactics utilizing beholders, medusae and other aberrations the way other generals use infantry, cavalry and the like. On the whole I see the Daelkyr war being fought by the generals under the Daelkyr lords much the same as the Dhakaani forces fight for the generals under the emperor.
Darth Syntax 12-12-06, 05:44 PM	the point I am trying to make though, is that the Daelkyr Wars did not have to be conventional at all to be effective. The Daelkyr and their servants are not humans or goblinoids or whatever and do not think anything like them, and this is what makes them so devastating when confronted. Why lay siege to a city with living artillery (beholders and the like) when you can drive the city mad and let your 'foes' do all the work for you? We know from the ECS that the Daelkyr treat the destruction of worlds as a form of art (this being the genesis of the 'aesthetic thought' idea) so it makes little sense to frame the coming of the Daelkyr in the traditional mold of an invasion. The Daelkyr and their servants are subtle beings (mindflayers are not known for their martial prowess, but for their plotting and scheming, beholders are generally viewed the same way), so it makes far more sense of the Daelkyr Wars to have been a subtle affair. Plots and counter plots, schemes to undermine the Empire and other power groups, fomenting conflict, a little light city-razing for fun, a general spreading of madness, that sort of thing. Granted I am trying to apply reason to the Daelkyr, but what the hell eh? Hordes of aberrations marching across the field of battle just isn't the style of Xoriat as evidenced by the actions of the cults of the Dragon Below, the trapped Daelkyr, and the like. So I just don't see a conventional war being all that likely given the nature of the invaders. Moreover, an unconventional conflict would help to explain why one of the great martial powers of Eberron was so utterly defeated, and why a bunch of barbarians with strange rituals managed to drive the Daelkyr back. Granted this all happened nine thousand years ago, so the historical record is bound to be garbled something fierce. War (or rather a word that could be translated thus) may have been the only word that came close to describing the conflict, but it was not a wholly accurate term.
goblin_pride 12-12-06, 07:22 PM	We know from the ECS that the Daelkyr treat the destruction of worlds as a form of art (this being the genesis of the 'aesthetic thought' idea) so it makes little sense to frame the coming of the Daelkyr in the traditional mold of an invasion. The Daelkyr and their servants are subtle beings (mindflayers are not known for their martial prowess, but for their plotting and scheming, beholders are generally viewed the same way), so it makes far more sense of the Daelkyr Wars to have been a subtle affair. Plots and counter plots, schemes to undermine the Empire and other power groups, fomenting conflict, a little light city-razing for fun, a general spreading of madness, that sort of thing. Granted I am trying to apply reason to the Daelkyr, but what the hell eh? Hordes of aberrations marching across the field of battle just isn't the style of Xoriat as evidenced by the actions of the cults of the Dragon Below, the trapped Daelkyr, and the like. They used the word Incursion, not invasion. My thinking is that they did alot of mental manipulation of the dhakaani but the food raids by the aberration troops were the memorable portions or the conflict. The conventional portions of the war would be the only part that really stood out because those would be the only part that was ever recorded. The manipulative portions wouldn't even be regarded as being part of the war because it wouldn't be clear that the Daelkyr were behind this city or that tearing themselves apart. The Empire would just assume that it was cowardice or treachery that caused the civil strife.
Darth Syntax 12-12-06, 09:28 PM	I don't think it would take long for the Dhakaani to realize that their unspeakable foes were behind much of the strife and turmoil, but they would have almost no way to combat it. The horrors of the madness-plagues and the civil strife would have been some of the worst part of the wars, with the actual appearance of the creatures of Xoriat coming only when defeat was already assured. Oh the empire tried to fight the Daelkyr with force of arms, they rooted out beholder hives and illithid cities. Cults were destroyed and the mad were rounded up and either killed out of mercy or quarantined, but nothing was effective. The Daelkyr seemed to have eyes everywhere and their strange allies were seemingly limitless in number. The Empire was impotent to stop the horrors visited upon them, even the final use of the beshyk weapons and suicide raids on Daelkyr holdings in the west did nothing. These military actions would have been almost more for show, as a means of trying to reassure a populous who were half mad and frightened. They accomplished little for moral and even less towards victory. In my view of the Wars, the madness-plagues, the civil strife, the horrifying transformations, the fear, and all that came with it were the Wars. All the military actions, the deaths, and the destruction was simply incidental. This is why the Empire was so demoralized, they were utterly unable to deal with the conflict in any meaningful way. This was very much a War that was fought by every living person of the Empire every minute of every day for I don't know how long. The Soldiers might die, but so do the shopkeepers, the civil servants, the boatmen of the canals, the stevedores, the farmers and the slaves. No one was spared the madness of the conflict. It would have been a horrific time to be alive, and even after the Daelkyr had been bound, the empire would have been in no shape to rebuild. All confidence would have been shattered, and the empire tore itself apart. I imagine that all semblance of the Dhakaani state vanished within a few years of the end of the Daelkyr Wars with various regions claiming to carry on the ancient traditions of the now lost state but with no central authority. The wars were the death knell of the Empire. My intent here is to try to imagine the sheer horror of this kind of conflict, one that cannot be won on any terms. And even the gatekeepers only managed a cease-fire: the Daelkyr are still here, and they still feel the desire to unmake and remake everything, but they are endlessly patient, they have time.
goblin_pride 12-13-06, 03:53 PM	My intent here is to try to imagine the sheer horror of this kind of conflict, one that cannot be won on any terms. And even the gatekeepers only managed a cease-fire: the Daelkyr are still here, and they still feel the desire to unmake and remake everything, but they are endlessly patient, they have time. The empire would've had an outside chance to win, but the need for the Daelkyr to have bodies to twist to serve them would make the war slightly more conventional than you've outlined. In my thinking the Daelkyr didn't come to invade, they were fleeing the things that the Daelkyr feared from their home plane and the Dhakaani made a ready source for new recruits for the armies to fight whatever it is the Daelkyr lords fear. With that drive to rebuild the armies of madness on Eberron, the Daelkyr couldn't release the full weight of their mental attacks. The Daelkyr, stopped cold in their tracks may find their home plane completely gone to them should they ever free themselves of the Gatekeeper prisons that bind them.
goblin_pride 12-16-06, 11:28 PM	So you whelps would have yourselves a member of the Taarka'khesh, eh? This night I ride the moonride and any that can keep pace may call themselves my brother. This is the final rite of the wolves of the empire and most of you will not survive. Those brave few that do manage to live will take a place among the packs that prowl the empire's borders. I was writing out a bit of an adventure and the concept of the Silent Wolves final rite came to me. The Moonride is an initiation and test of continuing fitness among the fiercest, most feral of the Dhakaani goblins. Of all the rites of passage the moonride is the most important. Any Taarka'khesh may call for a moonride on any night when three or more moons go full. As a rite of passage, any goblin that makes his first moonride becomes a member of the pack he rides with. As a test of leadership, the moonride shows the fitness of prominent members' abilities to lead raids and allows them to found their own packs. And finally, as a funeral rite, the moonride allows a dead Taarka'khesh to be honored with the spoils gathered in their name by their surviving brothers. The moonride itself is a test of endurance, skill and often battle prowess. It consists of a ride at full speed from moonrise to moonset wearing nothing but a loincloth and carrying nothing but spear and shield or bow and quiver. Some leaders will ride all night and cover great distances while others will direct their pack into enemy territory to gain trophies. Riding without saddle or armor, many do not survive.
ArcTan 12-17-06, 08:18 AM	It's an excellent idea and I plan on using it my own game but not to the extent you've gone with it. The Daelkyr would use some conventional tactics utilizing beholders, medusae and other aberrations the way other generals use infantry, cavalry and the like. Just a note: Medusae are actually monstrous humanoids, not aberrations. While the suspicious and somewhat xenophobic Gatekeepers credit the daelkyr Orlassk (the Master of Stone, who loved to use petrifying monsters like medusae and basilisks to freeze enemies in horrific poses), the medusae themselves believe their kind, like all creations of the Shadow, have existed since the beginning of Eberron, and it's my own feeling that such medusae as participated in the Daelkyr War were recruited by Orlassk and other daelkyr rather than created by them -- and that most were probably neutral or even fought against the daelkyr.
goblin_pride 12-17-06, 12:43 PM	On the notion of hospitality: In the days at the height of the empire, the rules of Hospitality were clearly defined. These rules, thought to be handed down from the Dhakaan herself, existed long before the founding of the Empire in the traditions of the tribes of mountain goblinoids. To become a guest one need only be invited into the household of another. A guest may stay as long or as short as he would like, but the host must guarantee his protection and health while he is under the host's roof. Once used by the twelfth Emperor, he sought out an enemy general on the battlefield and offered to stop the fight so he could "rest awhile under my tree and regain a bit of your strength". The general*, so beholden to the laws of hospitality promptly ordered a cease to the fighting because he had just become a guest of the emperor and a guest must do no harm to his host. * The general, Barget Yarkuun'Tash became known after his death as "the king under the tree", because he had the tree dug up and replanted atop his palace in the city of Yarkuun Draal, thus staying in the emperor's household until the end of his life. The laws of hospitality kept his city loyal to the emperor from the first day to the last days of the empire itself.
goblin_pride 12-17-06, 02:28 PM	On the nature of Clans and tribes within the empire part III: A Clan during the height of the empire was simply an elite group of Goblinoids assembled according to their own rites and rituals. Usually founded by a hero or his followers, a clan would gain some measure of political clout when it was recognized by the emperor and afforded a seat in the Imperial council. Most clans come from within the military of the empire, thus giving the empire a strong, militaristic feel to modern historians. Although there were more military than civilian clans, the civilian clans often used considerable leverage to force the decisions of the council by withholding support for the grand expeditions for which the generals clamored. Thus when the farmer clans demand a new aquaduct, the military clans often made certain they got it. A tribe in the empire was a political affiliation of clans that almost universally voted the same in questions of law and governance. When a Tribe* spoke on a decision, the votes of each of it's clans was cast for or against a given measure. Tribal councils were often held in order for decisions to be made as to which way to vote in matters before the grand council of the empire. The political machinations of the grand council could be as violent and brutal as the battlefield and thus it was common for tribes to have several military clans associated with it to stop it's member-representatives being "prevented" from having their voice heard. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- * The closest real-world example of Dhakaani tribes would be the political parties of the modern world.
eehamburg 12-18-06, 08:55 AM	* The closest real-world example of Dhakaani tribes would be the political parties of the modern world. I can see it now ... In this corner ... the Republican Clan in the other ... the Clan Democrat It is a battle to the death .... who can slay the other by flinging more mud .... and the winner is???
goblin_pride 12-18-06, 09:15 AM	I can see it now ... In this corner ... the Republican Clan in the other ... the Clan Democrat It is a battle to the death .... who can slay the other by flinging more mud .... and the winner is??? Usually the one that's filled more empty graves, but that's just my thinking.
eehamburg 12-18-06, 11:03 AM	Usually the one that's filled more empty graves, but that's just my thinking. This may be the case, but don't forget about all of the backdoor negotiations and deals made... behind closed doors is where the real power of the Empire was formed and laid. And then there are the great Dhakaani debates over the public drunkeness of their empress or who she has been seen with .... and yet no mention about the true problems of the masses.... Oh ... and since we are on the topic of tribes being like political parties ... has anyone given any thought to how individual rights are handled or guaranteed within the empire and more distinctly within each tribe or clan? does the average citizen get to vote on anyone who represents them? if so, then how is this handled? are there campaigns or is it might makes right? And furthermore, what would the average citizen view as being their 'true' problems? what were the concerns of the masses? How did the governing bodies view and handle these issues? how did these issues come to light?
goblin_pride 12-18-06, 05:22 PM	Oh ... and since we are on the topic of tribes being like political parties ... has anyone given any thought to how individual rights are handled or guaranteed within the empire and more distinctly within each tribe or clan? does the average citizen get to vote on anyone who represents them? if so, then how is this handled? are there campaigns or is it might makes right? And furthermore, what would the average citizen view as being their 'true' problems? what were the concerns of the masses? How did the governing bodies view and handle these issues? how did these issues come to light? Individual citizens would have a voice in the selection process for determining the clan's representative to the grand council, but the it would be a decision made within the clan using their own system rather than any laws meant for the whole empire. Since citizenship was tied to membership in one of the clans recognized by the council and the emperor, the common people that were subjects but not citizens wouldn't have any representation and very limited rights in the courts and under the law of the empire. With legal protections, rights and priveledges tied to citizenship, it was in the best interest of any subject to seek membership in one of the imperial clans. The problems of the subjects weren't of any concern to the empire or the council and would be universally ignored, but the problems facing citizens would often times be championed by one or more clans in the grand council and dealt with immediately. When the grand council bogged down in debate over any given issue it would often be steered to a course of action by the emperor's small council, appointees meant to counsel the leader in matters thought to be too unimportant to bother his imperial majesty.
goblin_pride 12-18-06, 05:24 PM	This may be the case, but don't forget about all of the backdoor negotiations and deals made... behind closed doors is where the real power of the Empire was formed and laid. Politics is but warfare on a differing scale.....
goblin_pride 12-18-06, 05:29 PM	And then there are the great Dhakaani debates over the public drunkeness of their empress or who she has been seen with .... and yet no mention about the true problems of the masses.... I always envisioned the imperial household being more closed off to the public. Sure, the emperor would make his official appearances but for the most part the imperial family would live a very cloistered life in the capitol and access to his imperial majesty would be very limited. With the exception of the rare few emperors that ruled from the front, most of the people would never see any member of the imperial house except on state ceremonial occasions. As the direct descendants of the great Dhakaan, the imperial bloodline was viewed as something relatively akin to divine, without all of the religious nonsense.
goblin_pride 12-19-06, 05:25 PM	A few thoughts on the small council of the empire: The small council of the empire, also referred to as the emperor's Privvy council*, consists of appointees from the grand council chosen for their abilities in one area of expertise or another. Membership in the small council is a position of extreme honor among the Dhakaani because it puts a goblinoid in close proximity to the emperor on a near daily basis. The master of Coin, called the "emperor's purse" was most often a position held by a member of one of the many merchant clans of the empire. His duties to the emperor and empire was to ensure that taxes and tarrifs were paid and that the imperial treasury was replenished as funds were used. The master of the household, also referred to as "the emperor's shield" was the head of the emperor's personal bodyguard. Charged with his imperial majesty's defenses, the master of the household was the commander of all the imperial troops in the palaces spread across the empire and could, if needed raise an army to protect his highness. The Hand of the emperor was responsible for governing the empire on a day-to-day basis when the emperor was to busy or too too bored to deal with the task. Also called "the proxy emperor" by most of the Grand council, The Hand's duty was to run the empire in the emperor's name and stead. Many of the hands of the empire were the more qualified members of the imperial line who were appointed to the position so that half-wit emperors with preferred birth rank wouldn't destroy the empire with their edicts. In at least 35 cases the Hand was made emperor after members of the grand council arranged an "accidental death" for the emperor. The master of Song was the Duur'kala appointed by the grand council to oversee the education of young emperors and to ensure that the emperor was well advised on the history of all matters. Most times, however, the Song was nothing more than an entertainer that kept his imperial majesty from meddling in the governing of the empire. The master of Law, called the "emperor's word" was responsible for the enforcement of Imperial Edicts and grand council law over the full expanse of the empire. The courts, the judges and the police forces of the empire answered directly to the Word or his subordinates. The master of the armies, called the "emperor's spear" was literally the one Dhakaani in control of the armies along all the imperial frontiers. The Spear dealt with the majority of military matters and ensured that a competent leader was always in control over the imperial legions. Generals across the empire answered to the Spear because he was the commanding general of all the legions. This position was chosen by the generals of the imperial legions and confirmed by a vote in the Grand council, one of the few small council positions not appointed by the grand council. Other consular positions passed in and out of the imperial small council, but the ones mentioned above seemed to exist for the bulk of the empire's history. In some rare cases, the emperor himself was more capable than the counselor in a given field and in those cases the emperor simply overruled that counselor. Given that an Imperial Edict was all that seperated Eberron and Dolurrh, most counselors accepted being overruled by his majesty. * it was called the Privvy council because there were more than a few Emperors that couldn't have used the privvy without the guidance of the small council. Although saying this directly would probably find one dancing at the end of a rope.
goblin_pride 12-19-06, 05:44 PM	A brief thought about the Ghaal'dar: I was considering the impression the Dhakaani remnant would have towards Haruuc's government while I was trying to create a Dhakaani government. Within the council system I created to handle the governance of the empire, Haruuc and his followers would be looked on as nothing more than one tribe in the grand council, assuming they were afforded citizenship to begin with. Thus, the Ghaal'dar would be nothing more than a tribal council to the Dhakaani and in their opinion, not a terribly stable tribe. Without the proper level of stability, a Dhakaani leader wouldn't even consider the Ghaal'dar when making decisions and more likely than not would see that breaking the tribal council of the Ghaal'dar would be needed before they could be properly assimilated into the plans to rebuild the empire.
goblin_pride 12-19-06, 08:59 PM	In light of the treachery of the Rhukaan'tash, the Hand of his Majesty has ordered the razing of this city and the deaths of all the disloyal inhabitants. You, my brothers are to be the instrument of his Majesty's will this day. That city stands with it's gates barred to the loyal citizens arrayed here on this field, the love of the empire and the will of his Imperial Majesty. I received word this morning just before sunrise that this city no longer exists. It's people are to be slaughtered if they bear weapons against the soldiers of the empire, sold to the flesh-peddlers if they surrender or burned alive in their houses if they choose to hide. By the time the sun makes it's way into the eastern sky again, this city will be a smoking ruin. The people of this city failed to show their loyalty and open the gates for us to capture their leader and that means they are equally guilty of treachery, do not hesitate to slaughter them like animals. We are the Dhakaani, they are not. Our will and the will of his Majesty this day are going to erase this stain from the proud history of our empire and cast this wretched refuse to the wind. -Kethet the Elder At Rhukaan Draal* *as quoted by Kethet the Younger, in his history of the empire
goblin_pride 12-20-06, 06:03 PM	A brief explanation of the continued reference to Rhukaan Draal: In the glorious history of the empire, the Rhukaan'tash (razor crown) clan lead a revolt against imperial rule. No one is particularly certain what the clan's name was before the revolt but the razor crown they're named for was forced onto the head of their leader after his capture at the siege of Rhukaan Draal. Due to the cowardice of a sizable number of them, the clan Rhukaan'tash managed to survive all the way up to the modern era and in the year 969 by your calendar, you discovered a bit of the treacherous nature of these usurper kings. The ancient city of Rhukaan Draal and the modern city of the same name shouldn't be confused, they are not the same. The ancient city was destroyed completely by the armies of the empire. Under the orders of the the Imperial Hand, the very stones of the city were stripped away and carried off by the armies that laid waste to that wretched haven of usurpers. It was said that every soldier of the empire was rewarded the weight of the stone they carried off in silver and that the foundations of many imperial buildings used the stone so that the empire itself would be the tomb marker of the treacherous would-be kings. The ancient city was the focal point of an almost ten year civil war just prior to the golden age of the empire. The number of generals of significance present was impressive to the historians of the later eras that it was often wondered which of them truly led the armies there. Among the great generals present were Kethet the Elder and his siege engineers, Kethet the Younger and his infiltrators, the Wolflord Arkhuul and his Taarka'khesh wildriders, the Marghuul lord Barak'gor and his stormguard, Ruus the Bold of the Yarkuun'tash, Tuvaar the Word-bearer and no less than a dozen Generals of the Dhakaan'tash line. The armies at Rhukaan Draal numbered well into the hundreds of thousands and the walls held firm for a full year before a bold plan came from Kethet the younger to send in six hundred infiltrators to open the gates from the inside. In the darkest part of night, goblins crossed the walls, crawled through sewers and in at least one case flew into the city to wreak havoc as others made their way to the gates of the city. Once the gates were open, the stormguard forced a foothold and the mad slaughter began. House by house the armies of the empire closed on the palace of the razorcrown, leaving nothing but a wake of flames and corpses. The destruction of Rhukaan Draal and it's people was the cost of the crown of the Rhukaan'tash, the dead never saw the long march of the Beggar-king of the Razorcrown back to the Emperor's palace, but the brutality of that day was the price of usurpation. We dealt with our Razorcrown king in the Dhakaani way, Cyre gave theirs his throne. Why would I leave goblin brothers living under the dominion of such weak-willed leaders? -Kethet the Trollbait Tactician and historian of the Daru'khesh
goblin_pride 12-20-06, 07:11 PM	On brutality: The goblinoid attitudes towards cruelty and brutality are a bit alien to the human mind. You would consider some of the punishments that we take as particularly cruel and I believe you call them inhumane. I have many scars given to me in the course of my learning and growth to adulthood. Each is a clear reminder of the offense committed that was contrary to the Dhakaani way. Individual pain and discomfort are merely tools used by parents, grandparents and teachers to steer us down the right path. It is nothing in the Dhakaani mind to inflict a grievous wound to correct wrong-thinking. The punishments we mete out to our young in the course of their education serves a dual purpose. First, it causes severe discomfort to remind us that what we have done is not a Dhakaani way. The second purpose is that it helps to dull the pain response, thus making our warriors much more able to endure significant amounts of physical punishment than you weak-willed and weak-bodied humans. The brutality of the goblinoids is legendary among your armies. Our leaders will use severe punishments for offenses that your kind would consider slight because a Dhakaani should know better and in order to cause pain a Dhakaani requires a great deal more effort. Death is a punishment used for many offenses and we think nothing of simply cutting a branch to save the tree. Life and death don't carry the same meaning to the Dhakaani. My life is the empire's and if the empire needs my death, so be it. The same holds true for all the goblinoids under me as well as over me in the chain of command. If the resolve of the troops under my command would be strengthened by the death of one of their number by my hand, I will kill without thinking. The human need to hate their enemies is the most alien of the aspects of your people. We Dhakaani don't feel a need to hate our enemies, we can kill an enemy without such petty feelings. A soldier of the Dhakaani kills because that is his duty to the empire. If an enemy is doing his best to kill you as you kill him, you should love him for the devotion to his people, but kill him none the less. Honoring an enemy for fighting well after he's been dispatched is the greatest honor a Dhakaani warrior can offer. If these things make us brutal to human eyes, so be it. We held an empire for eleven millenia and we will most likely rebuild. Our brutality will force serious consideration by the generals of our enemies and that may make some of you subjects to the rebuilt Dhakaani empire. -Kethet Trollbait* *from a conversation with Professor Varien of Morgrave university, Sharn 998YK
goblin_pride 12-20-06, 07:25 PM	On brutality: Suitably alien enough?
Darth Syntax 12-21-06, 02:15 AM	It's not bad at all, I especially like the bit about life and death. Speaking of death, I have been thinking about the Dhakaani view on death, time, the concept of the self, and other related matters. If it's not too much of an imposition, I thought it might not be a wholly bad idea to discuss these things. More later, when I can think a little better.
eehamburg 12-21-06, 08:56 AM	I think that it is all generally well done ... well done indeed.
goblin_pride 12-21-06, 11:33 AM	Speaking of death, I have been thinking about the Dhakaani view on death, time, the concept of the self, and other related matters. If it's not too much of an imposition, I thought it might not be a wholly bad idea to discuss these things. On the topic of life and death, I was thinking about Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse, Goyokla and a few other lesser-known leaders of the native americans. The one trait that struck me about them was an absolute lack of fear in death. Death was embraced as merely another part of life, not something to be feared. The lack of fear in dying made them seem completely alien to the Europeans and is still to this day somewhat unnerving to Americans to think about.
goblin_pride 12-22-06, 02:20 AM	On the self: I am one of many. While there are many like me, that does not mean that I have little or no value. I am of great value to the empire for the things I have seen and the ordeals I have endured. My knowledge of the world is unique to me and my value to the empire is great because I can teach these things to others. The empire's knowledge grows with each new secret I discover and each new map I provide to those I serve in the empire. My life is my own for this moment, but it belongs as well to those who took the time to teach me the things they have learned, and those to whom I will teach the things I have learned. I am the focal point of countless generations of ancestors and I will be the well-spring of countless generations to follow. It is this debt to ancestors past and to future generations that I struggle daily to repay. Many have followed the way of the Dhakaan in the past and many will follow it in the future. The sacrifices I make in honor of the Word given by the first of the line of the Dhakaan are few compared to the rewards I receive from the sacrifices of others. If my life is called for in sacrifice I will give it freely, it is a good day to die. -Tuvaar the Word-Bearer General and Paladin of Dhakaan
goblin_pride 12-22-06, 02:57 AM	-Tuvaar the Word-Bearer General and Paladin of Dhakaan Yes, I'm aware that the idea of Paladins among the goblinoids of the Dhakaani empire probably flies in the face of everyone's perceived notions of goblinoids in general, but it just seems logical that with such a driving force behind the formation and expansion that at some point a degree of faith would spawn a cult of empire* that would produce paladins. My own take on the alignment of the empire is that it ran the gamut from good to evil and chaotic to lawful, with individuals rising to prominent status on all sides. *A cult within the empire doesn't change the agnostic nature of the empire itself, merely a focus of divine energy for a small minority. By no means would any of the varied Imperial cults be widespread enough to change the face of the empire, but it allows for artifact-level divine relics.
goblin_pride 12-22-06, 03:26 AM	On death: My home is in the mountains on the southern edge of the Seawall range. Life there would be brutal and short had it not been for the fortresses built by his majesty for my people to shelter themselves from the elements, the aquaducts that bring the water from higher in the mountains and the food that we couldn't have grown that comes in on the trade roads built by his Majesty. These things allow us to gather the riches of the earth unimpeded and strengthen the empire. The Iron from our mines make the armor and weapons of the empire that allow us to conquer new territories and bring prosperity to other clans, for when one prospers, all prosper. If not for the gifts of empire, my life would have ended long before this day. Considering the days the empire has given me, I go into war in his Majesty's name knowing that my life is his life, it has been a good, long life and it is a good day to die. -Barak'gor of the Marghuul* General of the Empire Founder of the Stormguard Protector of Darguun Servant of the Dhakaan'tash Governor of Paluur Draal *Bugbear general that died in his bed at the ripe old age of 103
Darth Syntax 12-22-06, 03:59 AM	The following are some (rough) musings on the understandings of time, death, and other such things as they relate to my interpretation of the Dhakaani. I would like to point out that these are the cultural norms, and while widely accepted some in the empire would hold divergent views. (I hope to eventually discuss the various philosophical schools and the like) -- A brief word or two about the nature of (normative) Dhakaani philosophy and cultural metaphysics The school of though out of which the empire grew, and which was directly responsible for the creation of imperial culture, might be classified as a kind of loose idealist philosophy. Thought and Mind were considered primary and superior to Action and Matter. On the whole, I have borrowed from Platonism, Neo-Platonism, Gnosticism, Stoicism, Buddhism (both from it in general and from Zen in particular), Legalism, Confucianism, and probably many others which I have forgotten. I must admit the platonic/stoic/Buddhist elements are quite strong, but hopefully interestingly worked with. -- On Time To the Dhakaani, and their forbearers, time was a cyclical phenomenon which progressed by a series of Great Cycles, which in turn were broken up into shorter Lesser Cycles. Each Great Cycle lasted for enormous lengths of time (indeed the time from the Progenitors to the present day would have been considered to be part of the same Great Cycle) and the world has already known countless cycles, and will know many more. Thus, the Dhakaani viewed the world as unthinkably old and as something that was, in some sense, eternal in nature. The previous Great Cycle was ended by the actions of the Progenitors, but remnants were left behind (aboleths, ethergaunts, spellweavers, and others). Very little is known about this Cycle, other than the world was a far different place. However, Cycles were understood as have recurring elements, so that each cycle was a variation on some unknown universal theme. The Lesser cycles of time were also bound by these themes, including the cycle of seasons, of tides, and even the rise and fall of empires. All of these were the playing of variations on the themes of the Cycle. So, the Age of Demons might be understood as a lesser cycles, as would the Galifaran period, and so forth. More on this later On Death With Dolurrh being a reality in the world, the question ‘what happens when we die’ does not carry the same philosophical weight as it does to us. It is something of an empty question, offering no room for real speculation, or philosophical inquiry. The more relevant question, to my mind at any rate, is ‘what is the purpose of Dolurrh?’ To the Dhakaani, Dolurrh was the place where memories were purged from the soul (which was seen as an extension of the mind rather than as some separate thing) so that the soul could be ‘reused’. In effect the Dhakaani held a belief in a form of reincarnation without the concept of a permanent self. When someone died, their soul went to Dolurrh were all its memories (that which is the very heart of the self) were drained away. Once this process was complete, the soul was then incarnated in a new form according to need. There was no hierarchy of reincarnation (at least not ‘officially’) and your deeds in life had no effect on what your self-less soul was incarnated as after your death and purging. The Dhakaani then had neither reward nor punishment to look forward too, only endless cycling through history. This translated into a cultural ambivalence towards death, and a much greater focus on living. Life had meaning, death was just a kind of cosmic waiting room, so why focus on that?
goblin_pride 12-22-06, 05:22 AM	The Dhakaani then had neither reward nor punishment to look forward too, only endless cycling through history. This translated into a cultural ambivalence towards death, and a much greater focus on living. Life had meaning, death was just a kind of cosmic waiting room, so why focus on that? I had the exact same thought. With death being nothing more than a purging of old memories and reintroduction to the empire most goblinoids would be able to more properly focus their attention on other things. Additionally, it makes the vast amount of histories, tactics primers and collected works of philosophy very important to the people so that the great minds that they revered could learn from themselves as it were.
goblin_pride 12-22-06, 01:22 PM	On the pursuit of pleasures: I recall once, long ago, enjoying an apple. I was a young whelp then, perhap seven years old. It was on the eve of a battle that seems to have slipped my memory. My master was sitting beneath a tree on a hillock, waiting, just before the sun rose. It seems odd to me that so many years since then I can recall the sunrise, I can recall my master sitting there patiently waiting for it and I can remember that perfect apple but the battle that followed has escaped notice completely. Long since faded are the memories of the blood and gore of the field, the fetid stench of the dead and dying and the bright vivid colors fading slowly to brown as the very life drained from friend and enemy alike. But the memories of that apple linger. I can almost taste it today. Hundreds of battles later and still I cannot forget the sweet, juicy texture of that one perfect piece of fruit. I can still feel the juice running down my chin, the the muted green color of it's skin in the early morning hours looking much like the skin of my companions, the slight crunch as I sank my teeth into it's meaty interior. Some devote themselves wholly to the perfection of the goblinoid form, others seek glory in battle for themselves and the empire. My master told me long ago that it was the little things that motivate us, he sought a perfect sunrise and it had eluded him for some thirty years. The way of the warrior on the path of the Dhakaan is strenuous but along it one is taught that finding perfection is a life well spent. Today I have orchards full of apples grown for me and I have eaten bushels of them on the eve of battle but that one perfect apple still eludes me. I can smell the blossoms of the apple trees on the breeze, perhaps this year I will finally find it. -Kethet the Younger from "The Way of the Warrior"
goblin_pride 12-22-06, 06:45 PM	On naming: Naming conventions among goblinoids may seem rather odd to the other races of Khorvaire because we tend to reuse and recycle names quite often. My name, for example, is derived from two great generals of the golden age of the empire that were influential at the time and quite prolific in their writings. Naming me and better than half of my siblings after these two generals was my parent's gift to them. This commonality of names is tempered by the addition of a descriptor to the identity of the child that often times is carried over into adulthood. As a result, I Kethet Trollbait have the brothers Kethet the Short, Tall, Fat, Loud, Ugly, Strong, Lop-Ear, Half-wit, Stubborn, Arrogant and Vain. My father was Kethet Half-hand and my grandfather on my mother's side was Kethet Ironjaw. While that does have the potential to cause obscene levels of misunderstanding, we usually ignore the first names when dealing with each other and instead use the descriptor like a proper name. Where this causes the greatest problem is in the writings of many of the great Dhakaani philosophers, for how can you tell the difference between the Warrior-Poet Arkhuul, the Wolflord Arkhuul and Arkhuul, Idiot of the Kraal*? Unless the secondary name is present in the documents you find among Dhakaani ruins, you should not ascribe them as works of a given author because it is possible that they were written by another of that name. Most times the tone and subject of the matter should be enough to be able to discern the author, but with writings unlike any other works the document should be categorized as an unknown author. -Kethet Trollbait *Arkhuul the Idiot of Kraal was sent to the Fortress-Monastery of Tuvaar the Word-bearer by Barak'gor of the Marghuul because it was thought the fool might be able to make the Word-bearer laugh. Barak'gor sent hundreds of entertainers and courtesans to the Word-bearer over the years because he thought the hobgoblin "far too serious".
Darth Syntax 12-23-06, 03:05 AM	My own thoughts on naming conventions in the Empire are intimately tied up in both the language (which is currently undergoing a substantial grammatical revision) and the culture of the Empire. Well, all that and my own personal obsession with naming conventions. -- For the most part, names in the Empire were semantically transparent (i.e. their meanings were clear to any who heard them and spoke the language) although they were often metaphorical in nature. Take for example the given personal (first) name Harann, which literally means ‘revenge’. Harann is a common hypocoristic form of Harannashyolan meaning ‘revenge begets him’. Hlaarai comes from the root ‘hlaar’ meaning ‘sorrow’ and also ‘to weep’, and the name might be translated as ‘she of (the)perpetual sorrow’ Turra literally means ‘sparrow’ Tlöönakt is a compound of ‘book’ and the verb ‘to be mindful, or to watch over’ (aktlaan, for example means ‘guardian’) and might be translated as ‘the one who watches over the books’ and is more meaningfully translated as ‘sage’ or ‘scholar’ This is just for given (first) names. Caste names, family names (usually from both the matraline and the adoptive families), various adjectives (the great, the lesser, the perpetually confused, the spotted, the coward, the learned, etc.) are also added. Full names in OHD can be quite long and can be changed over time (a fact that makes record keeping a nightmare, and one of the reasons for the professional clerks and others. It also makes for difficult work for any modern historian/archaeologist trying to figure out who’s who. The Modern-Dhakaani have adopted many of the old names for their use, although their meanings are often no longer transparent.
lordalm 12-23-06, 03:40 PM	Good bunch of post everyone. Thought for the day. What if the Dalkyer invasion was 6 bored guys who went slumming and picked a fight with the biggest bully on the block? So they basically show up with just thier retinues, thier ability to cause madness and the knowledge to warp other beings with elements of creature from other realities. So they begin the slow process of corrupting the Empire, under the Empire's nose. Literely, they were camped out in Kyber. Start twisting those that got closest to them, your guess is as good as mine as to what they used as the base creature for the beholders. Goblins and hobgolbins, probally bugbears too, though there is no direct mention of anything coming from the bugbears. Decades or centuries later its all out warfare time. Fall of Empire but not before the Gatekeepers manage to seal the portals to Xorat and the surving Dalekyer in Khyber. Dosen't bother the Dalekyer much. They have the lovely cults of the dragonbelow to play with....
goblin_pride 12-23-06, 06:04 PM	Thought for the day. One should really finish building the house before one begins arranging the furniture.
goblin_pride 12-23-06, 06:17 PM	To the Dhakaani, and their forbearers, time was a cyclical phenomenon which progressed by a series of Great Cycles, which in turn were broken up into shorter Lesser Cycles. The cycles within cycles view would lead directly to the reincarnation beliefs, with this life being no more or less valuable than the hundreds before or after. With a strong belief that you will come back after death, most Dhakaani fear death about as much as they fear stubbing their toe.
goblin_pride 12-23-06, 07:21 PM	On Tactics: Our esteemed companion, the Wolflord Arkhuul is not one for the writing of tactics primers. It is in his honor that I attempt to put into words the many finer points of his particular style of combat, for it can be said that his and mine are the most similar. The generals Tuvaar the Word-bearer and my esteemed father, Kethet the Elder and the legion of Dhakaan'tash generals that seem to follow them around like fawning calves favor the clash of armies on the field in strict, ordered regiments. The armies are meant to assemble and fight en masse at a place predetermined by the opposing generals, often times camping in relatively close proximity to one another. The Wolflord prefers to attack an enemy army on the move. What is the point allowing an enemy to prepare himself for battle, especially when he may outnumber you? An army that never arrives to the field is the Wolflord's gift to the armies of the empire. During this last campaign the Wolflord's packs destroyed no less than three of the enemy's legions before they could even march within one hundred miles of the field of battle. Swift, cunning and not tied to a particular place, the Wolflord's packs may number only a dozen warriors each, but that dozen warriors will slow down an entire army as they hit them on the march and seperate the men from their supplies, their officers and even each other. Soldiers forced to pull supply wagons will often times be too tired to fight when they do reach the battlefield. That is the fundamental basis of the Wolflord's cunning. My own infiltrators often rode alongside the packs of the wolflord sneaking into the enemy's camps at night to inflict grievous harm in the night to add to the woes Arkhuul's packs inflicted in the daylight. Fear, terror, and exhaustion would break the enemy's resolve and eliminate whole armies from the battles to follow. The Rhukaan'tash had us all but beaten on no less than six occasions during the war. It was the tactics of hit and run adopted by the Wolflord that saved his majesty's armies each time. We were badly outnumbered, sorely in need of supplies and trapped in geography that made the moving of an army all but impossible. Without the weakening of the enemy's armies, the loyal armies under such esteemed generals as my father, Tuvaar, Barak'gor and the Dhakaan'tash would have been shattered and destroyed. The Wolflord himself often said that it is in times of weakness that you must strike, attack only when the enemy is weak and retreat when he turns his strength towards you. Many times we would fire their camps at night and attack them during the day while they marched only to fire their camps again the next night. One determined goblin hiding in the shadows of a tree with a bow can decapitate an army, why would I waste hundreds of loyal troops on the field when I can kill a disloyal general that easily? In this the Wolflord and I agree, why attack a castle when you could've easily killed the builder? -Kethet the Younger
Darth Syntax 12-24-06, 03:05 AM	The cycles within cycles view would lead directly to the reincarnation beliefs, with this life being no more or less valuable than the hundreds before or after. With a strong belief that you will come back after death, most Dhakaani fear death about as much as they fear stubbing their toe. In a way, but there was no concept of an enduring 'self', so death (and dolurrh) were the end of anything that could be tied to a particular 'self'. For example when Harann dies, all that is Harann becomes nothing; he is no more. To bring someone back from the dead (unless it is done in less that a day to allow for the rectification of accidents and the like) would be considered, at best, to be a kind of grave-robbing, and it was not done. So death was a very 'final' sort of thing to the Dhakaani. The finality of death and the imperminence of life were actually celebrated in the Empire, mostly in a desire to truely lead a life worthy of the rememberence of others. If they sing songs and tell tales (or better yet write operas about you and your deeds) or read your writings and discuss your thoughts years after you are dead and gone, then you lived a good (i really need a better word for this, memerable?) life.
goblin_pride 12-24-06, 09:07 AM	In a way, but there was no concept of an enduring 'self', so death (and dolurrh) were the end of anything that could be tied to a particular 'self'. For example when Harann dies, all that is Harann becomes nothing; he is no more. To bring someone back from the dead (unless it is done in less that a day to allow for the rectification of accidents and the like) would be considered, at best, to be a kind of grave-robbing, and it was not done. So death was a very 'final' sort of thing to the Dhakaani. My personal take on it was that the Dhakaani believed that this life was just one small circle within the greater circle. The end of this life simply merged what was you with everything else until parts of it seperated again to have another go 'round. Not so much that the spirit was erased but that it went on to the become a part of the whole until it or parts of it were seperated again to live another life. This "Eternal Council" wasn't an afterlife per se, it was more of a universal spirit to which all other spirits were part and parcel. By going at it from that angle instead, death isn't final in their minds, it just means that things get more interesting. Resurrection would be a crime so vile that it would find the caster's spirit exiled* and his name erased from history as well as the resurrected returned to the grave quickly with his spirit possibly exiled as well for wishing to return. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- *most cultures have some funerary custom that ensures that the spirit of the deceased doesn't go on to whatever afterlife that culture believes in. With the ancient Egyptians and early christians it was burning the body of the deceased. To do so guaranteed that they wouldn't pass on into the afterlife of those cultures because a body was required for their particular afterlife. Spirit exile would be a punishment for crimes considered so heinous that merely executing the criminal wasn't enough, erasing them from existance completely would be the only way to ensure that an offense of that nature was never committed again.
goblin_pride 12-25-06, 04:19 PM	On notoriety and fame: In the years since the treason of the Razorcrown I've heard countless tales of the exploits of the generals in that conflict. While a rare few actually get the story right, there are a few exaggerations in their accounts. As my life grows closer to it's end, I feel a strong desire to set things right and give them proper credit for the things they did do rather than continue to allow the stories to build unchecked. Tuvaar the Word-bearer was indeed the greatest of the generals. His ability to rally troops was amazing at the very least. The storytellers would have you believe he was Dhakaan reborn. While good for storytelling it isn't very good for history. Tuvaar was a staunch believer in the words of the Dhakaan and he strived to bring it to all the goblinoids on the continent. He was the first of our fellowship to fall, dying on the northern frontier fighting goblinoids that didn't much like the idea of joining the empire. He was leading from the vanguard as usual when the commanders of the flanks pulled back leaving Tuvaar and his host exposed. Kethet the Elder died the same day as Tuvaar in the very same camp along the frontier. The goblin to whom no wall was too high and no river too deep died by his own hand after executing the commanders of the flanking units that allowed Tuvaar's host to be massacred. He fought his way to the front to rescue Tuvaar and returned him to the camp during the rout of the armies of the empire only to watch his old friend die. My esteemed Father's final letter to the emperor said simply "Tuvaar will need his master of siege in the next life, in this one I am completed." Arkhuul fell to Valenar blades while scouting along the southeastern frontier three years later. The Word-bearer's dog was proud and strong to the very end, his hair turned white from the ravages of age long before. It was the white hair that drew the attention of the Valenar, they singled him out and once he fell they retreated. He's buried out there on the Talenta plain, a simple stone marks the final rest of the Wolflord of the Empire. It says, "Here lies the wolf with the taste for horseflesh". Barak'gor lived a full twenty years after that. He rose to great heights, governing both the Darguun prefecture and Paluur Draal while he was still able. The Stormlord was always bigger-than-life but in the end he died old and infirm. He had come to visit me as he had done often in the many years since we first met. When he fell ill, the doctors said that it was a miracle he was still alive to begin with and there was nothing they could do. I had them executed and the parade that followed tried everything they could. But in the end, the storm had blown itself out. The Dhakaan'tash we shared the field with so many years ago have slipped into the past without notice by me, but to the empire it would seem they are the heroes of that war. The nine golden generals they are called and this time of peace they secured is some sort of golden age. There were more than nine to begin with but two of them died at my father's order in the north, the others I do not know. That leaves only me to complete the tale. My life in the fifty-six years since the rebellion has been calm. Aside from a few short expeditions at the frontier I have done very little besides train additional troops and grow old. I was but a child at the start of that bloody business. At the siege of Rhukaan Draal I was a mere seventeen years old and led six hundred hand-picked volunteers into the city under the cover of darkness. At seventy-three now, I am the last of a dying breed, a relic of the past best left forgotten. -Kethet the Younger* *introduction to his history of the razorcrown wars.
goblin_pride 12-25-06, 08:37 PM	I was sitting here thinking about my own campaign and my mind drifted to the origin of the goblin and goblinoids in general. Goblins as we know them came to us from a variety of different sources but the one detail of each is that goblins are Fae creatures in most every culture on earth. Creatures like the finnish Metsan Vaki would be much like the goblins we all know and love, but they weren't inherently evil or malicious, they were more of child of nature. With this in mind, I wonder if perhaps the goblinoids of the Dhakaani may be more closely related to the inhabitants of Thelannis. Perhaps a troop of faelings that marched through a manifest zone and found themselves unable to get back home, a hunting pack lost in Eberron without the ability to return to their home plane no longer coterminus,or possibly even a population of Fae that no longer wished to live under the rulers on Thelannis. Taken to an extreme the ruling Hobgoblins could even have a bit of celestial or fiendish blood pumping through their veins. That would explain the strongly agnostic views of the Dhakaani. Knowing that the gods don't exist except as symbolic figures in the mind of their followers would make them not so keen to follow them.
goblin_pride 12-26-06, 08:57 PM	I apologize that so many of my posts lately have been on the Razorcrown wars, these civil wars in the middle period of the empire are going to foreshadow quite heavily on the events in my own campaign centered around the rebirth of the Dhakaani empire. In the flavor text pieces so far I've laid out a strong foundation for the interrelation of most of the major players in Darguun and set the stage for quite a dust-up over Haruuc's usurpation of power in the eyes of the Kech Volaar and their ancient allies who view Haruuc's clan and tribe as traitors that should have been completely wiped out before the golden age of the empire. The Character of Tuvaar Kech Volaar is the founder of the tribe of the same name. His ancient fortress at Volaar Draal is the seat of power for the Dhakaani faction that would happily see Rhukaan Draal razed again in the modern era and the tribes of the Ghaal'dar scattered to wind if they cannot be brought fully into the reborn empire. The fortress bastion at Serenity is the home to several more militant goblin clans that side strongly with the Kech Volaar and trace their lineage back to the two Kethets and Arkhuul the wolflord. The number of clans living there is somewhere around three dozen, but the Elo'khesh, Daru'khesh and Taarka'khesh are the most likely to appeal to PCs. Additionally, the Marghuul leadership also lives at Serenity* along with three Hobgoblin clans loyal to the Kech Volaar. The Marghuul took a bit of thinking. I put them strongly in the Dhakaani camp with nominal ties to the Ghaal'dar. As subjects to Haruuc in name, the Marghuul have been raiding wildly and pretty much targetting everyone in hopes that Haruuc will march an army out of Rhukaan Draal to confront them over it. With his army in the field the Marghuul and the Dhakaani will be able to sweep down out of their mountain strongholds and destroy the Rhukaan'tash without having to burn them out of their cities. I intentionally left the Kech Sharaat and the Sharaat'khesh out of mention because they didn't exist at the time of the previous wars. The Sharaat'khesh monks are undecided which side they favor because until an emperor dons the crown of the Lhesh Dhakaan they have no loyalty to any one faction. The clans loyal to the Kech Sharaat are contesting the choice of emperor by the Duur'kala of the Kech Volaar and at the moment are loyal to no one but the leader of the Kech Sharaat who covets the throne for himself. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- * The fortress-bastion of Jataan the Serene was chosen to house the Marghuul because it is still unknown to the Ghaal'dar council. This fortress deep in the Seawall mountains is isolated enough that the bulk of the meetings by the Leadership of the Kech Volaar takes place there. It also houses one of the few remaining imperial palaces and grand council chambers so will most likely be a temporary capitol until a proper capitol can be built (conveniently, it's original purpose). The absolute secrecy surrounding the location is watched over by the infiltrators of General Madoc of the Daru'khesh also called Half-ear, Nine-finger, One-eye and several other less complimetary names. Hopefully this gives you a little bit to work with in your own campaigns.
goblin_pride 12-27-06, 06:24 PM	On the fashion of warfare in the old empire: Over the course of the millenia in the empire, armor designs varied widely and it became a bit of fashion to decorate one's armor. Utilitarian armors with little decoration were worn by rank and file soldiers* but as one moved farther up the command ladder the level of decoration would grow by leaps and bounds. Generals within the empire often wore suits made of bamboo, silk, leather and steel painted in color patterns that would at best be called gaudy with fearsome masks intended to strike fear into the hearts of their enemies. One goblin cavalry general even went so far as to have his helmet designed in such a way that his double topknots could be pulled through his helmet and add further individuality to his already distinctive wolfhead helmet and mask. *Common practice was for a soldier to enamel his armor in the color of his commander so that clashing armies could be easily discerned on the field. This lead to confusion occasionally but usually a base color with different colors for the shoulder flashes prevented two armies on the field having the same colors.
goblin_pride 12-29-06, 06:04 PM	On the topic of the perfect warrior: I have thought long and hard in my life about the perfect warrior. The way of the warrior along the path of the Dhakaan is rather a hard road that will test even the most devout. To be a perfect warrior, one must be as adept at the court as the field. A perfect warrior is the ultimate vessel of the culture of the Dhakaani. The skills of war must be tempered by the skills of peace, for each is a part of the true Dhakaani. My own skills are lacking in poetry, philosophy and aesthetics, but many a cold night along the frontier do my troops and I share the stories of heroes of the empire long dead. The songs of our people often rise into the still night air from the camps of our armies on fringes of his imperial majesty's domain. Not to say that those who devote themselves wholly to war without regard for the more refined skills are lacking. Truly, they are as much a warrior as any, but to be perfect, one must carry the fullness of the empire's culture. The common troops are much comforted by a commander or shieldmate that can bring a bit of home with them on campaign. Many nights have I heard the shrilling of a fife coming from the watchtowers and slept as though I was were sleeping in the comfort of my bed at home. My companion Barak'gor and his love of life make him as perfect as any warrior I have ever met. His appreciation for wine, women, food and song are legendary among the troops that serve alongside him. On any night you'll likely find him moving from fire to fire singing bawdy songs and drinking heavily with all the men of the army. There isn't a tavern song that he doesn't know and it comforts the men to celebrate life with such a ferocious warrior-general. His laughter tonight will become a battle roar tomorrow, but the troops will not yield one inch as long as he still lives. -Tuvaar the Word-bearer* *from an uncompleted letter to Kethet the Younger on the nature of the perfect warrior.
ArcTan 12-30-06, 03:37 PM	I was sitting here thinking about my own campaign and my mind drifted to the origin of the goblin and goblinoids in general. Goblins as we know them came to us from a variety of different sources but the one detail of each is that goblins are Fae creatures in most every culture on earth. Creatures like the finnish Metsan Vaki would be much like the goblins we all know and love, but they weren't inherently evil or malicious, they were more of child of nature. With this in mind, I wonder if perhaps the goblinoids of the Dhakaani may be more closely related to the inhabitants of Thelannis. Perhaps a troop of faelings that marched through a manifest zone and found themselves unable to get back home, a hunting pack lost in Eberron without the ability to return to their home plane no longer coterminus,or possibly even a population of Fae that no longer wished to live under the rulers on Thelannis. The term "goblin" certainly refers to the set of creatures that can be broadly seen as fey, but those creatures in D&D are more akin to elves or halflings in their demeanor and habits than to the goblinoid races. I mean, if you go by this tack, then any non-human race would have ties to Thelanis, which is clearly not the intention. Hell, human history doesn't appear in Eberron until well after the Age of Giants ends, suggesting that they may be *less* natural inhabitants of Eberron than the goblinoids. Certainly this was what many of the goblinoids thought when the Sarlonan explorers came over, bearing an uncanny resemblance to the daelkyr. Nearly everything about the goblinoids suggests an almost anti-Thelanis mindset, actually. The Dhakaani Empire, at least, is Lawful rather than Chaotic, stresses duty rather than mercurial personal passions, values strength and efficiency and longevity more (at least in my view of Dhakaan) than passing aesthetic moments of beauty, etc. The feeling I get -- and the feeling I like -- about Dhakaan and the goblinoids in general is a very salt-of-the-earth, rooted-in-Eberron kind of existence. The vaguely related orcs are the species chosen to be Gatekeepers and opponents of all other planes, after all. In general I'm not a fan of proposing extraplanar origins for Eberronian races unless they explain something important. Remember that it is a very basic part of the Eberron creation myth that the mortal races of Eberron are Eberron the Wyrm's children, created from drops of her blood, and that the mortals are just as native and just as important to the Plane of Eberron as the children of Siberys (dragons) and children of Khyber (rakshasa) are. Taken to an extreme the ruling Hobgoblins could even have a bit of celestial or fiendish blood pumping through their veins. That would explain the strongly agnostic views of the Dhakaani. Knowing that the gods don't exist except as symbolic figures in the mind of their followers would make them not so keen to follow them. Who says the celestials and fiends *are* aware of the gods' nonexistence (if, in fact, the gods' nonexistence is a fact)? The usual explanation for extraplanar divine intervention -- that there are worshippers of the gods or, at least, analogous divine entities among the outsiders themselves -- seems to me to indicate the opposite. Certainly the conception of the gods among Eberron scholars -- that they exist in the Beyond, outside the orbiting planes -- means that the simple fact of being able to go to Syrania and not see the gods there proves absolutely nothing about the real existence of the gods.
ArcTan 12-30-06, 03:38 PM	One should really finish building the house before one begins arranging the furniture. If this is meant to imply that we should all wait until you finish a gigantic world-building process before throwing out ideas for hooks we could actually use in a campaign, I heartily disagree.
lordalm 12-30-06, 03:45 PM	Having made a Hobgoblin Artificier for Goblin Prides' game I find myself considering his reasons for being. Since this is going to be about recreating/restoring the empire I have come up with the general background for my character. He is a promising student of the ancient Dhakaani Arts of Artificing. Selected by his (guild, council?) to aid in a specific mission for Kech Volarr. Now my character himself is pretty much all about the lost knowledge and dosen't really care about a reborn empire. In point of fact he sees Hurac(?) as being the emperor all the Remenats have been looking for, but because he wasn't born amoungst them he can't be the one they have been waiting for. :rolleyes: Any ideas out there about the nature and importance of the Artificer specifically to the ancient Dhakaani? From one of the fluff novels it was painted as one of the greatest things one could be in the Empire. Responsible for not only the great weapons, but considering the skills, the general look of the empire as well. Thier knowledge of the planes works with the back story of the empire as well. Which leads me to think that the current version of the Artificier was learned in Khorvaire by the Sarlona imigrants from goblinoid practicioners. I suspect that the Art of Artificing was learned by the goblinoids from giants probally fleeing the end of things in Xendrix or were essentially trapped in Khorvaire after the fall. Kind of gives that whole passing the torch of civilization that I like to see in real world history even if there isn't much to base it on.
ArcTan 12-30-06, 03:57 PM	A few notes (not criticisms per se, but things I'd do differently): 1) We've disagreed on how strict the caste system in Dhakaani culture is or should be, but artificer is very definitely one of those jobs that a goblin would be far more likely to hold than a hobgoblin. 2) Someone taking the artificer class as written in the ECS would be following a highly modern reimagining of the role "artificers"-as-such had in ancient Dhakaan. Keith has said that all of magic was quite different in the Dhakaani era, and arcane magic as we know it simply wasn't practiced -- at least not in the form of wizardry. The modern artificer class' abilities are quite fundamentally rooted in wizardry -- the artificer starts out making wizard-like spell scrolls and wands before she can create wondrous items. The ancient Dhakaani artificer was the opposite -- in Dhakaan magic was something inherent in *things* and their uses, not something imprinted in words or the mind -- i.e. spellcasting as such was barely known outside the spontaneous abilities of the bard or the occasional, perhaps, sorcerer, but artificers were able to make items of artifact-level power on a regular basis. Of course, this ability has been lost long, long ago, but the point is that a modern artificer among the Dhakaani would be reconstructing an ancient role on quite different principles than his ancestors actually worked by. I imagine Dhakaani see the modern study of magic as, in a sense, backwards -- starting with subjective triggering conditions set up by the individual mind and working from there to the truly objective, basic forces of magic that can be embedded in neutral matter (i.e. starting by knowing spells and using spells as prereqs to make wondrous items) while the ancient magical theory of the Dhakaani worked in quite the opposite manner (seeing the basic, typeless magic of the artificer as fundamental and the spellcasting of a wizard as this idiosyncratic and unwieldy implementation of those forces).
lordalm 12-30-06, 04:26 PM	A few notes (not criticisms per se, but things I'd do differently): 1) We've disagreed on how strict the caste system in Dhakaani culture is or should be, but artificer is very definitely one of those jobs that a goblin would be far more likely to hold than a hobgoblin. 2) Someone taking the artificer class as written in the ECS would be following a highly modern reimagining of the role "artificers"-as-such had in ancient Dhakaan. Keith has said that all of magic was quite different in the Dhakaani era, and arcane magic as we know it simply wasn't practiced -- at least not in the form of wizardry. The modern artificer class' abilities are quite fundamentally rooted in wizardry -- the artificer starts out making wizard-like spell scrolls and wands before she can create wondrous items. The ancient Dhakaani artificer was the opposite -- in Dhakaan magic was something inherent in *things* and their uses, not something imprinted in words or the mind -- i.e. spellcasting as such was barely known outside the spontaneous abilities of the bard or the occasional, perhaps, sorcerer, but artificers were able to make items of artifact-level power on a regular basis. Of course, this ability has been lost long, long ago, but the point is that a modern artificer among the Dhakaani would be reconstructing an ancient role on quite different principles than his ancestors actually worked by. I imagine Dhakaani see the modern study of magic as, in a sense, backwards -- starting with subjective triggering conditions set up by the individual mind and working from there to the truly objective, basic forces of magic that can be embedded in neutral matter (i.e. starting by knowing spells and using spells as prereqs to make wondrous items) while the ancient magical theory of the Dhakaani worked in quite the opposite manner (seeing the basic, typeless magic of the artificer as fundamental and the spellcasting of a wizard as this idiosyncratic and unwieldy implementation of those forces). Funny I thought that was the standard description of the Artificier in the ECS. Also going back to your thinking, why wouldn't a hobgoblin be an artificer? They have no penalties to either charisma or intelligence so they are perfectly capable. And seeing as how the caste system, we largely agree on, paints the hobgoblins at the top of. They would certainly want to be the top dogs in that field of endeavor. Especially as it seems to dovetail with the skill sets in designing the empire from its cities, roads, waste removal, etc. Throw some quality magic like purify food and drink and you got the equivalent of the ancient roman water works without having to worry about bad water ever for example.
goblin_pride 12-30-06, 08:52 PM	If this is meant to imply that we should all wait until you finish a gigantic world-building process before throwing out ideas for hooks we could actually use in a campaign, I heartily disagree. Actually I meant we should get the history of the Daelkyr invasion a bit more polished before we start speculating on their purpose. But on further thought, their motivations would give us a bit more insight into what tactics they may have used.
goblin_pride 12-30-06, 09:27 PM	Any ideas out there about the nature and importance of the Artificer specifically to the ancient Dhakaani? My own take on it was that artificers were highly respected for the ability to harness great power and channel it into mundane items, causing them to do the extraordinary. The only real difference I would see between the modern and the ancient is that the ancient artificers drew on the powers of the sorcerors rather than wizards for inspiration. Modern Dhakaani artificers should be obsessed with learning the skills of both, thus increasing their ability to harness the arcane to empower the mundane, while keeping in secret the ancient techniques of the Dhakaani art. When creating Dhakaani relics, nothing should be too far out there. Saddles that give bonuses to ride skills, gondolas that float on the air, aquaducts that purify the water that flows through them or even statues that repeat the famous speeches of ancient heroes, nothing is too odd to be considered as a relic of the collapsed empire.
ArcTan 12-30-06, 09:28 PM	Funny I thought that was the standard description of the Artificier in the ECS. Also going back to your thinking, why wouldn't a hobgoblin be an artificer? They have no penalties to either charisma or intelligence so they are perfectly capable. And seeing as how the caste system, we largely agree on, paints the hobgoblins at the top of. They would certainly want to be the top dogs in that field of endeavor. Especially as it seems to dovetail with the skill sets in designing the empire from its cities, roads, waste removal, etc. Throw some quality magic like purify food and drink and you got the equivalent of the ancient roman water works without having to worry about bad water ever for example. But that's just it. The hobgoblins aren't at the "top". All three castes are supposed to be equal but different. (Which, in practice, might've put hobgoblins in pride of place, but whatever.) Goblins are the brains -- they're the clever ones, the ones who understand how things work, the ones who do the actual work of the Empire. It's the hobgoblins' job to provide the charismatic leadership, the acts of heroism, and so on that tie the empire together -- be the empire's equivalent of our politicians and movie stars and war heroes all rolled into one. (And if you're thinking that this means we need far more goblins than hobgoblins, well, that is in fact the case -- hobgoblins and bugbears form tiny minorities next to goblins, if you take the reproduction stats at all seriously.) Just as it's the bugbears' job to provide the brawn, the physical muscle, the jobs that require grunt labor and resilience and steadfast dedication -- which seems to us to be a "lower" position but by the Empire's values is as highly honored as anything else. In any case, we're explicitly told that it's the goblins who, in human cities, have taken to wizardry and artifice, and that this is the same role they play in modern Dhakaani tribes where those tribes have embraced arcane magic. As for the artificer: Yeah, that's how modern artificers see themselves, but modern artificers are subservient to the wizardry model of spellcasting in many ways (because, in the metagame, the Artificer class was created in a game system whose core is based around the Wizard class). The main thing is that Dhakaani artificers would probably never have created such a thing as a spell scroll or a wand, and wouldn't've thought of the wondrous items they made as having "spell prerequisites". They would trade in the ability to cast arcane spells in the sense we think of spellcasting to making wondrous items far more powerful than the ones modern artificers can make -- basically creating artifact-level weapons and armor and gear and such as a matter of routine. Such a class would be almost impossible to balance in-game, although from a player's perspective, in the limited timeframe of a campaign, trading in the capacity to make scrolls, potions and wands for a major bump in CL of wondrous items created might actually be a fair trade. Hmm.
ArcTan 12-30-06, 09:30 PM	Actually I meant we should get the history of the Daelkyr invasion a bit more polished before we start speculating on their purpose. But on further thought, their motivations would give us a bit more insight into what tactics they may have used. Enh. It seems to me that these two topics are intricately tied together -- you can't say what the daelkyr would've done without some idea of why they did it (even if your idea is only "their minds are driven by mad schemes beyond all mortal ken"). For instance, the idea you've posted repeatedly about the daelkyr fleeing some greater madness in the heart of Xoriat is intriguing, but seems at odds with much of the behavior they're described as exhibiting in the printed material. (Most notably that their response to whatever apocalyptic magic of binding used by the Gatekeepers was to *withdraw back* to Xoriat, leaving their weakest members behind to be trapped by the Khyber seals, rather than all taking the chance to take refuge in Khyber under the mixture of imprisonment and protection the Gatekeepers' spell seems to afford.)
goblin_pride 12-30-06, 09:38 PM	1) We've disagreed on how strict the caste system in Dhakaani culture is or should be, but artificer is very definitely one of those jobs that a goblin would be far more likely to hold than a hobgoblin. I strongly disagree with you on this, I can picture artificers coming from each of the races and the artifacts they create mirroring somewhat the values of the race of the creator. On the topic of Casting, I see the dhakaani following in the traditions of their ancestors to a degree by creating clans of blood and merit with ties to each being part of the core of every Dhakaani's life. These clans would fall into dominant and submissive roles in regard to each other on a regular basis with no preference for race being present. By this thinking, there would be some hobgoblin clans being lower than bugbear or even goblin clans, with all clans being subservient to the Imperial clan.
goblin_pride 12-30-06, 09:48 PM	For instance, the idea you've posted repeatedly about the daelkyr fleeing some greater madness in the heart of Xoriat is intriguing, but seems at odds with much of the behavior they're described as exhibiting in the printed material. (Most notably that their response to whatever apocalyptic magic of binding used by the Gatekeepers was to *withdraw back* to Xoriat, leaving their weakest members behind to be trapped by the Khyber seals, rather than all taking the chance to take refuge in Khyber under the mixture of imprisonment and protection the Gatekeepers' spell seems to afford.) My thinking on the withdrawal to Xoriat would be that the strongest of the Daelkyr would consider the slim chance of survival would be better than the prospect of being trapped for an eternity behind a gatekeeper's seal. Without knowing the power of the seals I can imagine it was a decision to stand and fight on Xoriat or be trapped within the seals. From my own thinking (flawed and human as it is) dying free is far more palatable than living in a cage.
goblin_pride 12-30-06, 10:09 PM	The main thing is that Dhakaani artificers would probably never have created such a thing as a spell scroll or a wand, and wouldn't've thought of the wondrous items they made as having "spell prerequisites". They would trade in the ability to cast arcane spells in the sense we think of spellcasting to making wondrous items far more powerful than the ones modern artificers can make -- basically creating artifact-level weapons and armor and gear and such as a matter of routine. I'm not so sure about this. I can see Dhakaani artificers creating wands for the Duur'kala of the Dhakaani to use to further strengthen their abilities. Granted they most likely wouldn't have looked like the modern conception of wands, they may have been in a form completely alien to the wizard's sensibilities but perfectly logical to a bard. The same holds true for scrolls, they would've been used liberally by the Duur'kala, artificers and rare few sorcerors of the empire, but would seem to be relatively unknown among the relics because the spell energy wouldn't appear as a spell formula common to modern scrolls. Imperial Edicts, warrants and the like could be infused with any manner of spell and it's effect occur at the end of the reading of the edict or warrant. Imagine an Imperial death warrant that triggers a Finger of Death at the end of it's reading. One can easily imagine many of them lying hidden in a dark corner of some university or library waiting for someone to study them further, not knowing that they carry such a powerful spell's energy waiting to be triggered.
goblin_pride 12-30-06, 10:45 PM	Of course, this ability has been lost long, long ago, but the point is that a modern artificer among the Dhakaani would be reconstructing an ancient role on quite different principles than his ancestors actually worked by. I envisioned the Dhakaani artificer as being as much a scholarly historian as a builder of arcane wonders. Poring over tomes of the written accounts of ancient sorceries and the patterns and plans for making the effects being as much a part of their work as the laying of infusions. To an Dhakaani artificer, the freakish nature of a sorceror to wield such arcane gifts was powerful, but it was the artificers that created order from such random chaos, granting those same gifts to those given the items they created. A Dhakaani artificer would look down on a sorceror as weak because the artificer could grant the ability to wield arcane power to anyone, but the sorceror could not. Modern Dhakaani artificers have millenia of of material to draw from for their inspiration, the powers observed and duplicated in the past scribed and transcribed over and over during the long reign of their clans. A wizard's ability compared to an artificer's is pathetic in the eyes of a modern Dhakaani artificer, the sad result of an individual's study of the corrupting influence of the arcane rather than the purer aspects of it's use in the tools of the empire. The weakening of the flesh is a foul trade to the artificers who create wonderous tools to be given to those worthy of their bearing.
ArcTan 12-31-06, 01:54 AM	I strongly disagree with you on this, I can picture artificers coming from each of the races and the artifacts they create mirroring somewhat the values of the race of the creator. Enh. Whatever. I recall artisanship and engineering to be traits explicitly placed as the purview of the goblin race in Keith Baker's Dhakaan article, but whatever. In any case only goblins are mentioned as being wizards and artificers in modern Dhakaan/Darguun/city goblin populations, and all the example hobgoblin builds we've been given stick to the martial classes. (FWIW, from a mechanical perspective you'd probably rather be a goblin focusing on ranged attacks than a hobgoblin if you want to make the most of your artificer in the game anyway.)
ArcTan 12-31-06, 02:01 AM	I'm not so sure about this. I can see Dhakaani artificers creating wands for the Duur'kala of the Dhakaani to use to further strengthen their abilities. Granted they most likely wouldn't have looked like the modern conception of wands, they may have been in a form completely alien to the wizard's sensibilities but perfectly logical to a bard. The same holds true for scrolls, they would've been used liberally by the Duur'kala, artificers and rare few sorcerors of the empire, but would seem to be relatively unknown among the relics because the spell energy wouldn't appear as a spell formula common to modern scrolls. Imperial Edicts, warrants and the like could be infused with any manner of spell and it's effect occur at the end of the reading of the edict or warrant. Imagine an Imperial death warrant that triggers a Finger of Death at the end of it's reading. One can easily imagine many of them lying hidden in a dark corner of some university or library waiting for someone to study them further, not knowing that they carry such a powerful spell's energy waiting to be triggered. I'm just trying to go with Keith Baker's statement that arcane spellcasting, as such, did not exist in the ancient Empire. (If there were sorcerers, presumably they did not exist as part of any unified tradition and were rare anomalies, like Blue psions may have been.) What you describe is not truly arcane spellcasting -- no spell completion is being performed by the reader, and the act of reading is just the mundane act of reading a piece of paper, with the paper itself containing some magical effect programmed to go off after being read. The magic, in other words, is not dependent on any magical ability of the reader (no UMD check, no spell list, and no act of spell completion provoking an AoO and prone to ASF). I can imagine the description of Dhakaani artificers we've been given creating such things. These would *not* be spell scrolls by the modern definition, but more akin to ordinary writing on which spell effects have been *cast*, a la explosive runes, sepia snake sigil, symbol of pain, etc. The difference being, of course, that if arcane spellcasting doesn't exist, these have to be created individually by a far more expensive and risky process -- or they'd be created themselves by an artifact printing press or pen created by an artificer. In any case, the point is that Dhakaan did not have wizardry as we know it, and probably not much of a sense of "spells" as codified magical effects -- the Duur'kala were probably *not* aware of their various songs as "spells" the way arcanists studying bardic magic today would codify them. This is a debatable and changeable point, of course, but I do value it as one of the definitive things Keith Baker has said about magic in the Empire that greatly separates the way things worked back then from how they work now. In any case, the idea that *people didn't really cast spells* back then seems to me to be important (if bards cast spells, they cast spells that weren't really identifiable as "spells" separate from their bardsong -- spells like suggestion or charm person, say). A Dhakaani "artificer" would be more like the Maester PrC or, I dunno, call them a "master smith" -- someone whose *only* power is to make things. I don't picture Dhakaani artificers blasting heavily metamagic'd scorching rays from wands or faking a scrying spell with spell storing item and action points or all the other cheesy things modern artificers do -- I picture them just making enchanted stuff and making it really well.
ArcTan 12-31-06, 02:03 AM	Modern Dhakaani artificers have millenia of of material to draw from for their inspiration, the powers observed and duplicated in the past scribed and transcribed over and over during the long reign of their clans. A wizard's ability compared to an artificer's is pathetic in the eyes of a modern Dhakaani artificer, the sad result of an individual's study of the corrupting influence of the arcane rather than the purer aspects of it's use in the tools of the empire. The weakening of the flesh is a foul trade to the artificers who create wonderous tools to be given to those worthy of their bearing. Nonetheless, the fact that there isn't a Dhakaani Artificer PrC that lets you craft artifacts as a non-Epic level character does mean that vast amounts of knowledge have been objectively lost by the modern Dhakaani clans. And I do seem to recall mention of both goblin wizards and artificers being embraced by the modern Dhakaani clans, and being a relatively new phenomenon -- I really would presume that the lack of resources and communication after the retreat to the caves would lead to a general inability to wield magic, and the post-Darguun world for goblinoids of all tribes has led to a kind of magical renaissance.
lordalm 12-31-06, 11:15 AM	(FWIW, from a mechanical perspective you'd probably rather be a goblin focusing on ranged attacks than a hobgoblin if you want to make the most of your artificer in the game anyway.) Actually thanks to my GM allowing me to reroll my stats after my intiall attempt barely netted an average of 12, my stats were pretty good for a front line combatant, on par with a cleric. Since I am kind of filling the position of cleric in the party, I made 20 scrolls of cure light wounds at character generation. Took a masterwork mace, light crossbow, a heavy wooden shield and a chain shirt to maximize my 19 dex for AC. With the 1st level infusions (the only ones I really looked at while creating my character, took forever to do compared to everyone else as it was the first artificier I had made) that I saw I was thinking I had a pretty good chance of surviving combat. As it stands now the party level is an adjusted 3rd. Everyone is 2nd lvl starting, with me the only hobgoblin. 2 goblins and 2 bugbears with 2 who weren't available due to the holidays.
lordalm 12-31-06, 11:22 AM	Nonetheless, the fact that there isn't a Dhakaani Artificer PrC that lets you craft artifacts as a non-Epic level character does mean that vast amounts of knowledge have been objectively lost by the modern Dhakaani clans. And I do seem to recall mention of both goblin wizards and artificers being embraced by the modern Dhakaani clans, and being a relatively new phenomenon -- I really would presume that the lack of resources and communication after the retreat to the caves would lead to a general inability to wield magic, and the post-Darguun world for goblinoids of all tribes has led to a kind of magical renaissance. From what I have read I would agree with the above. I saw my character being sent out to find the lost knowledge using what is known today. My take on the Arts of Artificing being learned from goblinoids by the humans of Sarlona would have seen them getting the shaft after the human expansions into the lands they still controlled after the shattered empire. Karnnath the Conquer (I think I missremmembered the name) [and english] is stated in one of the books (5N) that he started unifiying his country and the other human kingdoms by conquering the remant goblinoids still living in the areas that would become Galifar and the 5 Nations, before he turned on those kingdoms that didn't follow him initially.
goblin_pride 01-01-07, 03:33 PM	And I do seem to recall mention of both goblin wizards and artificers being embraced by the modern Dhakaani clans, and being a relatively new phenomenon -- I really would presume that the lack of resources and communication after the retreat to the caves would lead to a general inability to wield magic, and the post-Darguun world for goblinoids of all tribes has led to a kind of magical renaissance. That's my recollection as well. Magic is a somewhat new phenomenon among the goblinoids. It's not that they never had it, they more or less focused on survival more than arcane abilities. Magic, even in the old empire would've been different. Sorcerors would've been rare, like the psionics of the blue, but the effects of the sorceries would've been heavily studied by the artificers in hopes of being able to duplicate the effects to pass on to others in objects of power. With the focus of the empire lying with the majority over the minority, an artificer's ability to freely distribute the powers of these objects would've been highly prized. And thus we come back to the modern Dhakaani artificer, an amalgamation of the newer and older traditions, with limited knowledge of each. I would look at a Dhakaani artificer as someone that seeks to blend the ancient traditions and crafting methods to the modern, seeking out the vast ancient libraries of the dhakaani research into sorcery and the modern wizardly study of the arcane. Additionally, a dhakaani artificer would almost universally seek to teach the skills that he learns to others in his craft among the remnant because of the empire's focus on the education of it's members. Focus not on what you can learn, little one, but rather on what you can teach.
ArcTan 01-01-07, 03:36 PM	Magic, even in the old empire would've been different. Sorcerors would've been rare, like the psionics of the blue, but the effects of the sorceries would've been heavily studied by the artificers in hopes of being able to duplicate the effects to pass on to others in objects of power. With the focus of the empire lying with the majority over the minority, an artificer's ability to freely distribute the powers of these objects would've been highly prized. That explains why the differing focus in crafting. In a society where serving the whole of the State comes above individual development, wizardry, which requires an intense, cloistered and highly idiosyncratic study of the mind, might never develop. Certainly the kind of stuff a regular artificer can create does *not* amount to stuff that enriches the masses, but only the spellcasting classes -- the masses have no spell lists or UMD and can't use Spell Completion or Spell Trigger items (scrolls and wands). Instead the focus would be entirely on use-activated wondrous items -- devices that look like mundane tools and weapons but that have magic built into the basic way they work, so that activating them is as simple as swinging a sword or donning a cloak or twisting open an orb.
goblin_pride 01-01-07, 03:46 PM	Instead the focus would be entirely on use-activated wondrous items -- devices that look like mundane tools and weapons but that have magic built into the basic way they work, so that activating them is as simple as swinging a sword or donning a cloak or twisting open an orb. Exactly, the general purpose items would be the focus of the bulk of Dhakaani crafting techniques. Weapons that discharge spell-effects in combat, utilitarian items that grant competency bonuses, spell-effects that assist unskilled users and items of wonderous power that can be used by the masses. Picture climbing harnesses for young goblinoids learning mountaineering that have featherfall effects, sledges for hauling cargo that can float a few inches or feet above the ground, saddles that give bonuses to ride checks and the aquaducts mentioned earlier that purify the water flowing through them.
Joni-san 01-01-07, 03:55 PM	On the issue of Hobgoblin artificers: While the novels aren't canon, Don Bassingthwaite's The Grievin Tree does contain information about a famous hobgoblin artificer called Taruuzh. In Don's Eberron these artificers were called daashor. Their art has been lost almost completely.
goblin_pride 01-01-07, 04:19 PM	On the issue of Hobgoblin artificers: I rather prefer the explanation we've come up with here. To a degree, the art has been lost, but with the existance of the artificer libraries spread out in the ruins of goblinoid cities it can be regained.
ArcTan 01-01-07, 09:02 PM	I rather prefer the explanation we've come up with here. To a degree, the art has been lost, but with the existance of the artificer libraries spread out in the ruins of goblinoid cities it can be regained. Well, the art has been lost to a very great degree, though, if ordinary artificers were once capable of creating items of artifact-level power (which, by D&D rules, *no one* with any combination of class levels in the modern world can ever duplicate).
eehamburg 01-02-07, 10:10 AM	What amazes me is this ... how do you all come up with all of this stuff? Don't you have jobs? and what I mean by this is ... where do you get the time?
goblin_pride 01-02-07, 11:34 AM	On Knowledge of your enemy: I rounded the ridgetop to where Arkhuul was observing our enemy's host, I hadn't noticed the toll those long weeks had taken him until that day. We were riding hard, night and day, fighting and moving, hoping to buy Tuvaar a precious few extra miles. We had lost the battle at the Western edge of the Darguuni prefecture. Most of Tuvaar's host had been massacred. Arkhuul and I led the troops harassing the enemy so that the rest of what was left of the army could make the safety of the mountains. In the mountains they would be safe, they could rest and recruit. All we had to do was buy them time. Arkhuul pointed down to the horde marching below us. "That one there," he said pointing, "the one with the feathered headdress." I squinted to see. "He's the one, the god-king Ur'daxa, if you can kill him tonight, this host will break. I've been watching for them for several days, his followers will stop to choose a new god-king if we manage this." I asked why we should kill the orcish mercenary leader when we could as easily target the usurper's troops. Arkhuul raised an eyebrow and turned to me, "the usurper's troops won't stop the army, if we behead the orcish host they'll stop to choose a new leader and if we're lucky, they'll kill each other in the process." As he spurred on Kierna, the old she-wolf growled her displeasure. "I'll take the orcish camp tonight, you ride ahead and set the ambushes for tomorrow, with luck we'll be able to rest instead." And rest we did, it was fully three weeks time before the Usurper could regain control of his orc allies and in that time Tuvaar, Father and Barak'gor had reached the safety of the mountains. Once the snows began and we could retreat behind the closed passes, I asked Arkhuul to teach me all he could about the orcs that served the Usurper. Little had I known that Arkhuul had been part of the army that forced the submission of the tribes of orcs that were now fighting alongside the Traitor. Knowing your enemy isn't merely a matter of seeing the weakness of his physical form. Learn how he chooses his leaders. Learn what foods he eats. Learn what gods he prays to. Learn everything you can about your enemy so that you can predict his every move. Only then can you truly conquer your enemy. -Kethet the Younger
valkeriesmurf 01-02-07, 10:35 PM	What amazes me is this ... how do you all come up with all of this stuff? Don't you have jobs? and what I mean by this is ... where do you get the time? Haven't a clue myself, but dudes, keep it up! This is just awesome stuff!
goblin_pride 01-03-07, 04:53 PM	What amazes me is this ... how do you all come up with all of this stuff? Don't you have jobs? and what I mean by this is ... where do you get the time? Easy, steal a bit from history, a bit from literature, mix well and season with the input of others. A job that doesn't require alot of brainpower does help though.
goblin_pride 01-04-07, 01:19 AM	A brief note on size: People in the modern world look at my size and assume weakness from it. Yes, I am not as physically strong, but to base your assumptions on my size over my abilities would be foolish. I have learned through my years to use the perceptions of weakness to my advantage. When my bigger, taller or stronger allies engage you, be wary of me moving past you. I'm most likely analyzing the weaknesses of your armor and watching the way you attack to place just the right strike to bring you down with very little fight. While you ignore me for the ally of mine that you falsely assume is the more dangerous, it gives me the opportunity to open up your weaknesses and free up my larger allies for another opponent. The Dhakaani empire conquered vast territories because the bugbear warriors that were rightly feared for their strength also diverted the attention away from the knives of the goblins that could drop an enemy in a single, well-placed blow. It was this unity of action, this complimentary nature, that made the Dhakaani the rulers of hundreds of thousands of square miles of territory. -Kethet Trollbait
goblin_pride 01-04-07, 03:26 AM	I was a youngling when I first led my infiltrators into the city of Rhukaan Draal. I'd fought in dozens of small clashes with the troops of the Usurper, but this was the first time I can recall that I was actually part of a large-scale pitched battle. Even the other months of the siege didn't feel like a battle to me then. I had close to three thousand under my command but I needed to use the larger portion of them to back Barak'gor's Stormguard in the assault on the main gates of the city. I chose six hundred of my best to sneak into the city and decided against the wishes of the other generals to lead them myself. My Father was absolutely furious that I would be inside the city while the rest of the army was still trapped outside. His opinion was that the possibility of losing a general on such a foolish attempt to breach the walls was unforgivable. Honestly, I think that was the first time I had ever actually angered him. The sergeant of my first company opened the grate to the sewer that we made our entry through, the large iron sluice gates guarded by a small detachment of the Usurper's goblins. Our losses in the sewers below the city were minimal, the guards were focused more on the troops outside the walls than the sewers beneath the city. As night fell, we began fanning out into the city, the first and second comapny heading for the eastern barbicans that held the massive Dhakaani gates the imperial trade roads entered the city through. The third and fourth companies headed for the northen gates that Tuvaar's troops were waiting to be thrown open. All the other companies broke up and fanned out into the city to cause as much chaos as possible and raise alarms all over the city. I can recall climbing the tower just to the west of the main barracks of the Usurper's army and sniping at the hobgoblins that poured out the front doors as fireglobes detonated in every room we could throw them into. I watched the battles in the streets between my goblin troops and residents of the city that had come to the conclusion that we were inside the walls. Calls for help and screams of horror filled the air as fires leapt from building to building, goblin raiders running from shadow to shadow, falling on the defenders before they could mount a defense. Signal flares arced into the night sky all over the city, signalling the taking of the city's internal defensive works. As the barracks before me collapsed on itself, I looked to the eastern barbicans to see the dozens of flares that signalled the gates had been taken and the stormguard were into the city. I watched as the parapets and towers were being assualted by goblins intent on making a swift end of this treacherous nest of cowards. Fireglobes exploded sporadically as tower after tower was breached, their weapons turned in on the city they once defended. The city was burning with a heat I'd never felt, it was as if the hells themselves had opened up to swallow it whole. I could hear the baying and howling of Arkhuul's wolfriders pouring into the western reaches of the city, tearing and ripping at the defenders, offering no quarter, an orgy of blood and death the likes of which have never been seen since. The trooper beside me raised my banner over the tower we held and another fired three flares to signal our location, hoping that we would soon have loyal troops by our side so that we could continue our advance to the fortress at the heart of the city. By the time dawn broke over the bones of the city, the Usurper's fortress was being bombarded by the engines of my father. Fires that had been raging all night had died down and the ruins of the city had assumed a cold, still silence. Our banners danced on the breeze as they were flown atop the towers that had previously kept us from our enemy. Grim reminders of the carnage were everywhere, blood flowed on some streets like an aquaduct, red rivers pouring into the sewers through which we had entered. It was well past noon when the gates of the keep finally broke, hammered into rubble by the engines dragged into the city as well as the ones atop the Usurper's walls. The sudden press into the heart of the Usurper's household would make the previous night seem tame by comparison. No living thing was tolerated in that fortress, the slaughter of the treacherous line would not stop until it was eradicated completely. Those who tried to surrender were cut down before they could finish the words. The prisoners taken in the fight for the city were called the Rhukaan'tash* for the crown forced onto the head of the Usurper. It was an irony that he didn't survive donning the crown he sought all of the days of his life. I disagreed with the others on the topic of taking prisoners but they said that the emperor wouldn't approve of destroying such a useful source of slave labor, so they were bound and marched out of the city for the slave markets of the empire. -Kethet the Younger * the Rhukaan'tash appear to be a clan that sprang from the prisoners taken at the final siege of Rhukaan Draal, although references to the name of the city are lacking from the period before it's destruction. The Usurper's name, the name of his clan and even the name of his city seem to have been wiped from the history of the empire, replaced by the names presented in the histories of Kethet the Younger, which are often thought to be demeaning and insulting.
Thramzorean 01-04-07, 10:23 AM	One concept I like is using Magic of Incarnum for the goblin empire. Their arcane power came from the spirits of those who went before them and the souls of all goblins. There are several useful tie ins here. Incarnum would be a good reason why the empire remained agnostic, not unlike the silver flame they have a belief that their souls all went into some useful pool of energy - perhaps tied to the planes - and the next generation of goblins reactivated it. I much prefer having the Darkan Empire having Incarnum than the suggested sidbars thrown in WotC products simply looking for a dumping spot. Goblins are incarnates and soulborns. Halflings are of course totemists. It's a viable twist though my personal preference would be to still keep it limited to rare practitioners.
Alex_ 01-04-07, 11:19 AM	One concept I like is using Magic of Incarnum for the goblin empire. Their arcane power came from the spirits of those who went before them and the souls of all goblins. There are several useful tie ins here. Incarnum would be a good reason why the empire remained agnostic, not unlike the silver flame they have a belief that their souls all went into some useful pool of energy - perhaps tied to the planes - and the next generation of goblins reactivated it. I much prefer having the Darkan Empire having Incarnum than the suggested sidbars thrown in WotC products simply looking for a dumping spot. Goblins making use of "chakrah" would also tie into many of their other similarities to Asian-style cultures.
goblin_pride 01-04-07, 11:51 AM	You'll have to pardon my not involving myself in the discussion of Incarnum, I haven't read any of the material that it comes from.
goblin_pride 01-04-07, 12:10 PM	On the eternal war: In the darkest part of the mind of the goblinoid lies conflict, the eternal conflict that consumes and composes all the things we are. It's not to say that we are a war-mongering people, we are no more or less inclined to open warfare than any other. What we know is that we are indeed embroiled in conflict for our very survival in every aspect of our lives. From the battlefields of the world to the marketplaces in the cities across the continent, the goblinoid people struggle endlessly with themselves and the other creatures that call Eberron home. The highest point in the lives of the goblinoids was the rule of the Dhakaani, for in that time, the word Unity came into the goblinoid mind and focused the efforts of our eternal war outward. We members of the clans that form the Kech Volaar hold the word of the Dhakaan above all else, we are as unified in our thoughts as a people can be. Our wars, from our trade wars with the Ghaal'daar to the physical conflicts with the Kech Sharaat strengthen us for the continuation of life and further exploration of the eternal war. -Kethet Trollbait
goblin_pride 01-04-07, 01:15 PM	On love, respect and honor: Hatred is a wasted emotion. To be called to hate an enemy to kill him weakens the point of his death. The enemies I have had over the course of my life are legion, yet I have overcome the trials and tribulations of their efforts to kill me with ease because I am not inclined to hate them. Indeed, I would be almost tempted to say that I do in fact, love them. An enemy draws out the purer, more focused sense of self that allows me to be. An enemy is as instrumental in shaping me as the father that bore me into the world, the father that taught me the ways of honor and loyalty and the emperor whom I serve. Without any one of these, I would be a weakened husk of a goblin with no concept of honor or knowledge of the eternal war. It is in the struggle of life that I find purpose. Pausing to honor a fallen foe on the battlefield is a sign of the utmost respect. Something as simple as kneeling to close the eyes of an enemy while ignoring others shows a respect for one that helped to shape your devotion to your master and your martial skills. It could be said that the empire is the anvil and your enemies the hammer that individually couldn't shape your form, but together are able to bring form to the metal of your being. For this purpose, I say that to not love your enemies would be a form of disrepect and dishonor that does not befit a warrior of the Dhakaani way. I serve my emperor without question and attack his enemies without concern for my life, but in respecting my enemies, he has no voice. When the enemy of the emperor died at Rhukaan Draal, I felt no loss. When my father died on the northern frontier, I felt little loss. When the emperor himself died, I felt little loss. However, when my enemy from the Usurper's camp died at the battle of Daan'alor Pass, I felt a great loss, his skill in war was equal to my own if not greater. When my blade bit deep into his flesh and the life drained from him, all the things I could've learned from him died. I carried his body from that field and buried him with my own hands, for he was my enemy and his death was my death. -Kethet the Younger
goblin_pride 01-05-07, 10:10 AM	I was sitting here reviewing some of my previous posts and it occured to me that some might find the references to Rhukaan Draal confusing. The Ancient city of that name was located close to the Cyre/Mournland border, though it was only referred to by that name after the ruler of the city was defeated in the Razorcrown wars and his city razed. The modern city of Rhukaan Draal was built and named for the tribe composed of the offspring of the prisoners taken from that siege many years after they been restored to the good graces of the empire. The modern Rhukaan'tash are not direct descendants of the ancient Usurper, but they are indeed of that bloodline. The strain of two camps of enemies in an ancient civil war living in close proximity and having to share one kingdom makes the volatile political situation in Darguun that much more likely to result in open warfare. With the Dhakaani factions aware of the ancient history and the Ghaal'daar council not aware, the current covert actions are viewed as the acts of individual clans rather than a unified attempt to goad Haruuc and his faction into open warfare.
goblin_pride 01-05-07, 09:13 PM	I've been thinking about the warforged and the Dhakaani remnant since the issue was brought to light in the game I play in. Long story short, my PC goblin came into possession of a warforged (another PC) that had been the property of one member of the clan or another since the last war. Look for the moment on that thing in the corner. That thing, that machine of war built by the humans vexes me. It has been my property since my return to Darguun this past year. I'm not certain I will retain it as my property for much longer. When I return to Sharn, the laws of that country prohibit the ownership of Warforged as property and my own personal view is that ownership by right of purchase is foul, if they are indeed creatures capable of thought. I may grant it freedom if only to see if it will pledge itself to me and the empty throne I serve. Not that it hasn't proven useful. Truly, it's ability to work through the night at tasks presented to it is a wonderful trait and worthy of all manner of praise. I can give it orders that would not get carried out by my pinkskin allies and it will follow them to the letter, never questioning the order. If I tell it to slaughter one of my other allies should they attempt to flee from combat, it will do so without care or concern. My only worry is that it is a thing, not a creature capable of independant thought. By granting it freedom, will it accept the oaths as a means to return to servitude, or will it view that freedom as precious and offer it up to the throne as a sign of loyalty? I do find this thing interesting, if for no other reason that it calls into question what it is to be a servant of the empire in myself. My uncle called this thing Sharaat, which suggests that it is a tool, a mindless instrument of the will of the wielder. I may expose this creature to some of the great works of the old empire. If after reading the philosophy of Jataan and Ghala'ar, the histories of Kethet the Younger and the poetry of Arkhuul the Sage it shows no spark of intellect that would tell me it is indeed capable of thinking on it's own then I shall return it to my uncle and wish never to see another of it's kind. But on the other hand, if it shows a keen intellect and asks questions about that which it has read, I may well free it to see if the way of the Dhakaan is possible for the living weapons built by he humans. -Kethet Trollbait
goblin_pride 01-07-07, 03:25 AM	On the discovery of the Valenar: In the southeast of the continent, beyond the very frontiers of the empire, there are a people of great ferocity. These Valenar as they are called, are warriors worthy of respect and fear. I was able to gather some information from one that was captured last month. It seems they are descendants of a people called the Aereni that rebelled from another civilization ruled by creatures far bigger and far more advanced than the Ogres that live in the Droaamite enclaves and western Andalaar*. These giants were cruel and vicious taskmasters and the Aereni rebelled, seeking to flee their overlords. The Aereni and the Valenar are slimmer and seem quite frail compared to a hobgoblin. Their bodies, while slim and light seem equally capable of the rigors of open warfare. While we saw no Aereni, the Valenar we interrogated said that they are similar in body, but they are weak in that they do not value as highly the skills of the warrior, but rather the skills of something called the arcane arts. these Valenar seem to be ferocious warriors, fighting hard from the saddles of their mounts, equally skilled with blade and bow. They ride into battle atop great beasts, fully the height of a tribex, but narrower and seemingly less violently ferocious. These "horses" seem to be some sort of swift herbivore, somewhat akin to the goat or deer. Our first contact with them one of our scouts was unlucky enough to be too close and one of their horses jerked back it's body onto it's hind legs and split his skull with a horrendous crunch as it brought one of it's hooves down onto it. I am somewhat loathe to suggest it, but if you can find additional troops somewhere that can be sent to the southeastern frontier, I would greatly appreciate it. I am afraid that we have found a people far more capable of resisting our advances than any we have seen thus far in our glorious history. I realize that the campaigns in the north have Tuvaar and your father bogged down, perhaps you or Barak'gor could levy troops and march this direction until we can ascertain the true strength of these Valenar. I fear alarming the grand council with this until I have a better understanding of the enemy we face, it would be better to fortify our grasp here and scout farther into Valenar territory first. -Arkhuul the Wolflord the Word-bearer's Hound First of the Taarka'khesh *Andalaar seems to have escaped the notice of historians, it's thought to be the name of the provinces that lie where Aundair or the Eldeen reaches is today. The name disappeared after the failed attempt to conquer new northern territories by Tuvaar the Word-bearer. It is possible however that the region known as Andalaar was where Cyre was located prior to the Mourning, considering the region of origin of the generals during the razorcrown wars. This letter is the only known reference to there being a "western Andalaar".
goblin_pride 01-07-07, 10:05 AM	On zest for life and purpose: That Tuvaar drives me mad. For all his preaching and prattling on about the merits of unswerving faith to the word of the Dhakaan and his praise of the rewards of service to the empire, he never takes any time at all to enjoy his rewards. The village around his fortress is growing by leaps and bounds as the people of the empire flock to his banner. The dozens of clans that serve him directly would easily consider treason if it was in the Word-bearer's nature to covet the crown. Seemingly in spite of this, he carries on, campaign after campaign, always seeking to expand the empire rather than stopping to enjoy for even the briefest moment the spoils he has earned in the emperor's name. The rice wines brewed around his home are some of the finest of all the empire, yet he does not drink. I have on many occasions grown quite drunk in his fortress, and he simply continues to drink nothing stronger than perhaps ewe's milk, all the while preaching to me that, "drunkeness clouds the mind and obscures the goals of a general of the Dhakaan, my friend." The sheep and goats of his people's flocks grow fit and tender on the grasses of his pastures, yet he seems not to notice that they are some of the most tender in the empire. For him it is nothing more than food for his belly, never noticing the care taken in their preparation due to his foolish lack of desire for the spices that his people use to great effect. Many meals have we shared under his roof, the foods as varied and wonderous as the empire itself, yet he eats nothing more than roasted goat and plain bread while his guests eat like emperors and kings. "This food is nothing, the Word of the Dhakaan gives it all the spice I need" he says, as the rest of us enjoy a meal worthy of her imperial majesty. Women? Hah, the fool has dozens of imperial governors wishing to use their daughters to warm his bed. I've sent women to the fool myself in hopes that at least one of them would give him a night's pleasure only to be disappointed in the morning when they tell me that he slept on the floor and never touched them. His fortress has become a convent of disappointed women, all seeking to bear his children and rule his domain while he campaigns on, yet he takes none of them but offers hospitality to all. If it were me, I would have bred an army myself in these last few years. "Pleasures of the flesh are nothing compared to the pleasure of spreading the Word of the Dhakaan." If I hadn't seen him make water on campaign, I would assume he was castrated. He does laugh though, on rare occasions. It's usually when I begin ranting and raving on about him not taking some sort of pleasure in this life. The last time I saw him smile, I was too drunk to stand and supporting myself with two half-naked dancing girls in my own house, berating him on his inability to show even the slightest sign of enjoyment of the benefits the Word had brought. He looked at me in all my drunken glory, sang me a line from the Hedgehog Song and beemed a smile as I began laughing as I had never laughed before. "Some choose life, love, the joys of food and drink, in this life I take greatest pleasure in the Word of the Dhakaan." He may be a fool for it, but he is my friend and I will continue to tempt him to enjoy this life a bit more until I find my way into a grave, most likely because of one of his damned-fool campaigns, but that's another story, I think. -Barak'gor of the Marghuul
goblin_pride 01-07-07, 12:10 PM	On the perfection of the Warrior on the path of Dhakaan: A perfect warrior does not exist, it is an abstraction that draws many to it's banner but lacks any true substance when examined closely. To be a perfect warrior, you'd have to embody all the principles of the Dhakaani espouse all the philosophies of the Dhakaani and to be quite honest, be all of the Dhakaani. Tuvaar's slavish devotion to perfection is foolhardy at best, he tortures himself daily attempting to reach a perfection of form that grants him some sort of enlightenment. It's that endless need for purpose that hamstrings him. Never good enough in his own mind to feel content, he strives endlessly to make himself more and more of the perfect warrior. Barak'gor is the opposite extreme, he lusts his way through battles, only to lust his way through life. His path seems to follow along the excess of the things in life that are interesting to him. Food, wine, women, and song, Barak'gor has tasted them all or at least well more than any other has in this life. Always quick with a jest or a drink, Barak'gor is the perfect example of the things in life that are good. Sadly though, his appetites make him need more and more in order to sate those same appetites. As a warrior on the field, he slaughters wildly, seeking to recapture the first victory of his youth, never thinking about the goals of a campaign or the tactics of battle, a wild, roaring creature, leading the most ferocious of our armies from the front, holding the vanguard through sheer force of will. Arkhuul is different, he varies between the lustful and the suffering, gorging himself at times while at others starving himself. Like the creatures he loves so much, Arkhuul can be as tempermental as his wolves. When on the field, he rides wildly, savoring the bloodlust of the battle, driving his troops in such foolhardy charges as he can, often times risking far more than he thinks, demonstating his rightful place as the leader of his pack. Undisciplined and feral, he shows as much kin to his wolves as he does to you or I. You, my son are far more capable of disciplined decisions than most. Look back to the Razing of the Usurper's city, you were the one that knew the sewers would be lightly defended. Seeing that weakness shows that you are able to logically observe the enemy and make reasoned assumption that they would overlook such an easily exploited weakness in their defenses. Without the ability to understand the enemy, you would never have risen to the level of power and influence you have. At best, you would have been skulking about the shadows observing enemy movements and reporting to a leader that is exactly as you have become. I'm quite certain that your time at my knee and in Arkhuul's company made you the blending of the wild and the disciplined that you are and gave you the skills and attributes to lead the number of troops that you do. My mind is completely logical, I am too disciplined I am told. For me the defenses of a city are nothing more than either a puzzle to solve or an obstacle to be torn down. A battlefield is a game and the movements of the pieces will give me a win if I am paying attention to the other player's pieces. I don't see the individuals in the army as much as I see the units they serve in. It is an oversight that costs me more lives than I care to count, but that is the price of empire and my impressive list of victories still draws troops to my banner. The perfect warrior doesn't exist, it's a concept that is somewhat flawed. One warrior cannot be perfect, it's the comrades and allies that one chooses that makes a warrior perfect. I am nothing without Arkhuul, Barak'gor, Tuvaar and even you. It is in the company of the five of you that we conquered the Usurper, and it is in the company of the five of you that I will be remembered. Individually we are as flawed as any other person in the empire, but as a group, we are the greatest generals of our time. Funny, isn't it, the Unity that the Dhakaan spoke of so long ago is the source of the perfection on the Path of the Warriors. -Kethet the Elder
goblin_pride 01-07-07, 02:52 PM	I wasn't talking about member-states though but rather a historical progression something like the following: dynasty 1 > period of chaos > 43 city-states > Unification > period of Stability with Dynasties 2-6 > another period of chaos > Unification under Empire 1 > period of chaos > 5 states and lots of wars > Unification again > Empire 2 . . . . (history happens) > Empire 21b > chaos > 6 states > cocktail party > Philosophical Empire of the Golden Age > Daelkyr Wars > period of Chaos > lots of little states > period of forgetting of all previous history > barbarism . . . My descriptions of the Empire (following this model) refer only to the Philosophical Empire of the Golden Age. aww bugger, I put my Razorcrown wars in the cocktail party in your timeframe.
goblin_pride 01-07-07, 03:16 PM	30+ views while I was copying my fluff text posts to my hard drive* and no one even left an attaboy or anything? * yes, I created all that stuff and didn't even have a copy of my own material, my own players (with one exception) are obviously incapable of logging on here to look at some of the rich background I've created so I had to copy it so I could print them up a bloody handout.
lordalm 01-07-07, 03:29 PM	What amazes me is this ... how do you all come up with all of this stuff? Don't you have jobs? and what I mean by this is ... where do you get the time? I am at work. I have 13 hours on Saturday and 14 hours on Sunday where I have almost nothing to do. Of course I don't wright books like ArcTan. Goblin_Pride is a cabbie so he spends a lot time in his own head. So glad I don't have telepathy.....;)
goblin_pride 01-07-07, 03:35 PM	Goblin_Pride is a cabbie so he spends a lot time in his own head. So glad I don't have telepathy.....;) So you're saying I can discount you as one of the voices in my head?
lordalm 01-07-07, 04:02 PM	"I sit here once more in the dark before the dawn preparing for the day ahead. Once again I read late into the night on the works of the Elder and the Younger. How I grow tired of the prattle of ancient warriors from a time gone to dust, never to return. The Heirs of Dhakaani strive to retake the lost glories while being in no better than any other of this time. If Galifar hadn't fallen to sibling rivalry the old fools wouldn't even be thinking about crawling out of the holds in the mountains they have hidden in these past 4000 years. I see it as my calling to find and restore the Arts of the Artificier which I had to learn from goblins from Sharn, who in turn learned it from humans who claim to have invented it! All because the elders see a hobgoblin only finding honor in war. That they have let all other forms of thought or expression from the empire fall by the way side. Quoting lines from generals who were mostly goblins and bugbears as if they had been hobgoblins. We are not so enlightened as our forbearers. While the goblins and bugbears have a measure of thier old place in the empire with the remants found here, as opposed to those of our kind ignorant of our history. The hobgoblins are the undesputed lords and masters of the Heirs. I will find the acient ways. And I will show them warfare as it was done of old, during the Dalkeyr war. Then let them speak as such to me." From an unburnt scroll fragment found in a communal trash fire in Kech Volarr.
lordalm 01-07-07, 04:07 PM	So you're saying I can discount you as one of the voices in my head? Yep. :angelhide
goblin_pride 01-07-07, 05:29 PM	On the imperial succession: As per your request, I have looked into the matter of the succession and found the solution to the matter of the situation with the Kech Sharaat that will not be good news to the Council. According to the documents in our library on the matter, some of which date from after the fall of the empire and the retreat, the succession of an emperor is decided in a very specific manner and cannot be altered. In keeping with ancient tradition, the Grand Council is to convene and choose the six most likely candidates from the Dhakaan'tash bloodlines. It is from these six that the Duur'kala, a descendant of the Dhakaan herself, is to choose the fittest to rule. The problem, as I see it, is that Tuura and Ruus are both of the Dhakaan line. Tuura's claim is flawed due to the fact the Grand Council has not met in over twenty centuries. With this glaring omission in the rites of succession, her claim to a legal right to appoint the emperor is completely without justification. In order to make her right legal, she would have to call to council all the clans of the Dhakaani, many of whom are no longer living, their bloodlines stamped out in the millenia since our clans withdrew. The other point in which this plan becomes unpalatable is that the meeting of the council would have to include the clans of the Rhukaan'tash because they were and in law still are Dhakaani clans. The claim to the throne of Ruus Dhakaan of the Kech Sharaat has no basis in the laws of the old empire. Never in the history of the empire has a member of the Dhakaan bloodline appointed themselves to the throne. To allow his succession in this manner would be throwing away eleven thousand years of tradition and opening the door to a form of tyranny never before seen in the history of the Dhakaani. It is no better than if he were to seize the throne by the strength of his sword arm. Haruuc's position is irrelevant, his throne in Rhukaan Draal bears no influence on the empire other than that of a vassal state. His voice in the Grand Council however, is dictated by his clan's inclusion in the Grand Council of the ancient Dhakaani empire. To refuse him the right to council would fly in the face of that which the empire was. Any attempt to seat an emperor before bringing the Rhukaan'tash to heel would mean tipping your hand to them and alerting them to the strength of our armies. Considering the possiblities, civil war is inevitable. One of the two Dhakaan must yield and it will most likely come to military might. The Sharaat'khesh have said they will not even consider the killing of a member of the Dhakaan line and that leaves the possibility of using an assassin to force the succession closed to us. I wish there were more options open but it would seem the issue of succession leaves us very little room to manuever. In order to crown a new emperor we must remove one of the claimants, bring the Rhukaan'tash to heel and locate the crown of the Lhesh Dhakaan, assuming of course the title you bear as Keeper of the Regalia is merely a ceremonial honorific due to your position as protector of an imperial palace. I will return to the library at Volaar Draal and resume my search of ancient manuscripts in hope that I may find something of use to us, but I fear our course of action may already be laid out before us. -Hatuur the Lame* First advocate of the Daru'khesh order of the thirteen *his letter to the commander of the order of the thirteen, written in the spring of the year 998YK
goblin_pride 01-07-07, 05:44 PM	Quoting lines from generals who were mostly goblins and bugbears as if they had been hobgoblins. We are not so enlightened as our forbearers. While the goblins and bugbears have a measure of thier old place in the empire with the remants found here, as opposed to those of our kind ignorant of our history. Is that a request for more hobgoblin specific material? I had thought the Hobgoblin general that was the first Kech Volaar would be flattering enough. Although making him a paladin probably wasn't quite what anyone had in mind.
lordalm 01-07-07, 06:06 PM	Is that a request for more hobgoblin specific material? I had thought the Hobgoblin general that was the first Kech Volaar would be flattering enough. Although making him a paladin probably wasn't quite what anyone had in mind. Sure, that would always be nice. I think some more about bugbears would be good too. Too much goblin centric to the thread... Oh wait the title...Can we rename it "No love for the Dhakaani"? We have been looking at the ancient empire so long. I started thinking about the modern looking back. Which is kind of where my post came from. Its my character in your game by the way. I forgot the name I gave the character. I'll use it for future posts once I get a look at my character sheet again.
goblin_pride 01-07-07, 06:46 PM	Vaarsuva paced the hall, his boots clicking with the rhythm of his stride, tappinig out the tone of his frustration with that wretched little monstrosity that the council saw fit to make a general. The insolence of that creature, the sheer audacity, to question a general of a field unit. "If I had my way, I'd have that goblin stripped of rank and then of skin," he muttered, "I am a hobgoblin and commander of the combined forces of this citadel, why should I have to suffer his insolence?" "Because he is a general, same as you or I" came the rasping voice of old Daraak from behind him. "We bide our time, here, waiting for his spies to do their work." The Bugbear reached out to brush a loose hair from his epulets. "When the time comes to march out of these halls, you'll have your respect from him. But for the time being you must learn that he is the only general with troops in the field and accord him the respect the council has." Shifting his weight, the old bugbear spoke again. "It would not be wise for us to contradict the council's choice to make him a general, it would most likely end in both of our deaths." "You're telling me that you actually approve of him bearing the rank?" The Hobgoblin asked, aghast. "He's nothing more than a wretched little spy, no more capable of leading an army than flying" "I don't say I agree or disagree, but the council agrees and for the time being we agree as well" Placing his hand on Vaarsuva's shoulder, Daraak continued, "for all our training for the battlefield, we do not know how to deal with the situation as it stands. That wretched creature does and for that the council made him a general." The rumbling of the old bugbear's stomach punctuated his statement and he said, "for now his skills eclipse ours. When his spies have done their work and the battle is joined, our skills will eclipse his and all will be right in your mind. Worry about the matter later, for in time, things change. Come, to the mess hall we go, I am hungry."
lordalm 01-07-07, 06:52 PM	Kewl!!! Can't wait to see how that story plays out.
goblin_pride 01-07-07, 07:37 PM	"HOW DARE THEY? I am the commander of the infiltrators of this bastion, how dare they appoint some wretched little merchant to generalship?" Madoc threw his helmet as he stormed into the antechamber to his office."Hatuur, find out all you can about this creature before he starts sending my best and brightest to their graves." "I have already, sir, the report is on your desk." Hatuur limped over to the window to close it before someone heard something they shouldn't. "If it's any consolation, Vaarsuva seemed rather displeased with the notion as well." "that's just because he can't stand me, now there's two.... He didn't?" "No, sir. He was talking with Daraak in the training hall a few minutes ago." "That's the best news I've heard in days." Madoc bent over to pick his now-dented helmet from the spot near the corner that it had landed. "Do you suppose the thought has crossed his mind yet that I do know the right ears to whisper into to have the wretch killed?" Madoc opened the door to his office and said, "get Longshanks up here and find me someone to send to Rhukaan Draal. If they want spies in Rhukaan Draal, I'll give them spies." Hatuur sighed and said, "he's already inside" as the door was closing. Shuffling through a pile of reports he looked out the window and muttered, "why wasn't I born a farmer?"
lordalm 01-07-07, 07:43 PM	Shuffling through a pile of reports he looked out the window and muttered, "why wasn't I born a farmer?" Ancient Dhakaani curse: "May you live in interesting times."
goblin_pride 01-07-07, 08:26 PM	Tuvaar fought hard to suppress the chuckle welling up inside. "I think it was when you told him you needed his soldiers to learn to be spies that you lost him." He snorted as the urge to laugh hit him again. "telling the commander of the citadel that you were taking some of his troops, the troops he plans on using to wage war and that they were going to learn to be spies, may have been a bit much." "So what, I'm a general now, the same as him and I need troops." To'ova said, beeming with pride. "If he won't give me any of his troops, I'll just tell Madoc to give me some of his." Unable to control himself, Tuvaar burst out laughing. "I can guarantee you one thing, if you so much as talk to either one of them today, your generalship will be the shortest in the history of this citadel." "what do you mean by that?" "Daraak is probably convincing Vaarsuva not to kill you as we speak and more likely than not, Hatuur has pointed out that Vaarsuva doesn't like you very much to Madoc." he said, before the giggling kicked in again. "If I were you, I would avoid talking to either of them until after they've had time to think about the consequences of killing you." "they couldn't do that, could they?" the fat merchant asked as the hobgoblin burst into laughter again. "generals don't kill other generals, do they?" "It's frowned upon, but it has been known to happen." Tuvaar said, his face grown red from the laughter. "Don't worry, Daraak will cool Vaarsuva down. It's Madoc I would concern myself with if I were you. You've taken his job as far as he's concerned and I'm sure the rumor that he killed a general to become one is just a rumor." "Why are you still here then?" To'ova asked. "Longshanks will be waiting to talk to Madoc, after he vents to Hatuur. Daraak will calm Vaarsuva down and then they'll eat their dinner. I'm actually not needed in this, so I'm enjoying myself listening to you." The laughter welled up again, this time bringing tears to his eyes. "So tell, me master spy, do you plan to levy troops to your cause or will you be asking the other generals for theirs again?"
goblin_pride 01-07-07, 09:33 PM	A quick scorecard of the Goblinoid leaders of the rebirth era: Vaarsuva Dhakaan'tash: The hobgoblin commander of the armies of Serenity, thinks that hobgoblins are the best troops of the Dhakaani armies and is chomping at the bit to wage war with whoever is availible. Madoc:Commanding general of the infiltrators of Serenity, often called Madoc's cut-throats. A goblin not to be crossed if you value your life in the slightest, not only does he know more ways to kill you than the average goblin, he knows where to hide the body as well. Daraak the Calm:Bugbear general and commander of a group of fanatically loyal bugbear siegebreakers. Unusually patient for a bugbear and more than willing to see how the political manuevering comes out before taking the field. Arkhuul Longshanks:Commander of scouts for Serenity, he's kept the passes safe for the past ten years. Just as capable and ruthless as Madoc, but the rumors about Madoc are far worse. Called Longshanks because there are at least six dozen Arkhuuls among the captains in service to the Citadel. Tuvaar the Jovial: Master of the Works, Siegemaster of Serenity. A pleasant hobgoblin with no real desire to advance, he's quicker to laugh than most and his troops and the other generals love him for it (with the exception of Vaarsuva, who thinks he doesn't take his work seriously enough) To'ova the Git: A merchant, his ties to the merchants and underworld of Rhukaan Draal bought him appointment to general, even though he has no ties whatsoever to the military. He sees the appointment to general benefitting his mercantile endeavors since as a general he won't have to pay mercenaries to guard his caravans, he can just use his troops. Odds on who kills him are leaning heavily towards Madoc with Vaarsuva coming a close second. The Council: The civil authorities of the citadel of Serenity, representing all the clans of the city. They appoint the governor and the generals of the city and can remove any of them if they so choose (usually executing those they remove). Hatuur the Lame:Technically not a leader, he's Madoc's clerk and anything you need to know, Hatuur can find out.
eehamburg 01-08-07, 09:01 AM	Ancient Dhakaani curse: "May you live in interesting times." Couldn't you have come up with anything more original than that???? Sheesh ....
goblin_pride 01-08-07, 10:13 AM	Tuvaar was half-awake when he heard the measured tap-tap-tap of Vaarsuva's morning walk down the marble halls of the General's quarters. A comforting sound on most days, the agitated pace of the commander's walk this morning was disquieting to the affable Tuvaar. His mind drifted back to the previous day's events and a smile began to creep across his broad, fanged face. A screech from down the hall brought him fully awake with a start. Grabbing a sword from the rack by his bed he was running at full speed down the hallway when Vaarsuva caught up. "it came from down near To'ova's quarters" he said, "you didn't?" Vaarsuva, who was at full speed himself replied, "not this soon, no. You don't suppose Madoc did?" Tuvaar dismissed the thought, "not yet, no. He'll find someone to do it soon enough, I suspect, though." When the pair reached the door, they found Longshanks standing in the doorway, dumbfounded. "It would seem our master of infiltrators has left a gift for our new master of spies." Longshanks chuckled as he gestured inside, "suit of armor suitable to a general of the empire." The two newly-arrived generals looked in, seeing the fat little goblin sitting on a couch being fanned by servants, his trousers soaked through and looking faint. The suit hanging on the display rack was familiar, it's demon mask and horned war helm were obviously the armor of the previous commander of the citadel. "I'll post additional guards on your chamber tonight", Vaarsuva said, knowing full well the guards at the end of the hall didn't catch Madoc putting this here, additional guards wouldn't hear him either. "I'll get some of my own guards today", the fat little merchant said. Tuvaar snickered and turned to Longshanks, "Breakfast?" was all he said. "Aye, I could eat", the master of scouts said, sliding the shortblade back into the sheath at his waist. The trio of generals wandered back down the hall, laughing as quietly as they could. Tuvaar was the first to speak, "an interesting first strike, I wonder how the fat little wretch will reply."
goblin_pride 01-08-07, 10:35 AM	"That fat little git has servants, servants in the general's quarter. I tell you Hatuur, such a thing has never been done before." Madoc ranted, still irritated by the little usurper the council seems to have insulted him with. "Tuvaar doesn't even bother putting men in his guard's rooms and this fat little twerp brings in servants?" "I sleep up there as well, sir. Wouldn't I be considered a servant?" The clerk asked, knowing full well the answer he would get. "Hardly, you were one of the best cut-throats there was before taking that blade to the thigh. Besides, your value is in information, not pampering me." Madoc's thoughts shifted quickly after thinking about the event that left his trusted Hatuur lame. "Do you suppose they found the armor yet?" "Most likely", Hatuur said, his mind more focused on the document in his hand. "It's a bit of a risk, choosing that particular suit, though. You don't suppose they'll begin to wonder about it's previous owner after this?" "The Council has heard more rumors about me than they could ever possibly believe. They think the doddering old fool got too close to a rail on the palace tier and fell." Madoc looked out the window and continued, "it'd be a shame if that suit carried that kind of foul luck with it though, eh?"
goblin_pride 01-08-07, 11:31 AM	Daraak chuckled as the others told him about the armor incident this morning. A bit of old hat for a cut-throat, sneaking in and leaving a message for the merchant. It wasn't that long ago that he loathed Madoc for the tactics his kind used. Infiltrators aren't like regular soldiers, you can't line them up and put spears in their hands. They are the kind that are used to operating alone and surrounded by enemies. Daraak was certain that when the war came, he would need Madoc and his troops. The fat merchant would be in the way if he distracted the master of Infiltrators. "Did you hear me Daraak?" Longshanks asked knowing full well the old bugbear was deep in thought. "No, I was thinking about something else" "I said my scouts turned up another one of those maps last night. About ten miles out they discovered a camp, six humans and two Ghaal'dar. Looked to be another one of those graverobbing parties that have been turning up lately." Longshanks looked at the old Marghuul and asked, "Do you think we should tell Madoc about it or hand the matter off to the Git like the council says?" "do both," Daraak replied. "Madoc needs to know about it because he'll send his own people to look into the matter and it's the Council's wish that the fat merchant earn his rank in this. After all, isn't that why he was forced on us?" "Which one do I tell first?" "Tell Madoc first, the merchant will go directly to him looking for advice on where to get his own people. That should set Madoc off rather nicely." The Marghuul snorted at the thought of the fireworks that would cause. "As much as I dispise Madoc, he's been our ears in the cities of the Ghaal'dar for long enough that I trust him to do this without revealing our position here."
goblin_pride 01-08-07, 01:12 PM	Jatuun leapt from hiding under the eaves and sprinted down the street as quickly as he could. The guards seem to have missed him yet again. The shadows of Rhukaan Draal aren't as welcoming to a Dhakaani as the ones in Volaar Draal are. Finding a suitable spot in the shadow of a winebarrel, Jatuun paused. Hatuur told him this one would be dangerous but this is far worse than dangerous. Two guards, Hobs, most likely, too loud to be bugbear. Jatuun pulled his cloak up over head and tried to disappear deeper into the little shadow he had found, his hand reaching for the dagger hidden at the small of his back. I could kill one easily enough, he thought, but that second might be disciplined enough to run for help. He waited. As soon as they had wandered past, he slinked from the safety of his little pool of shadow and across the square. The tavern should be just the other side of the square and halfway down the lane. The Smiling Ogre, Hatuur had said, third floor two windows from the right. There it was, just as described. The drainpipe creaked as he scuttled up the wall, but it held his weight. Handholds were abundant here but the cover of darkness wasn't, he would have to climb quickly. Reaching the window, he pulled the dagger free of it's sheath and slipped the blade between the shutters to lift the latch. It opened easily enough, but there was a stirring inside the room. He paused. Opening the shutter, he slipped inside and settled close to the floor. The message bag was hung from the chair near the door. Sliding across the floor, he inched his way across, smooth as silk. He pulled the bag from the chair, took the letter from the bag and stuffed it into his shirt. Get the message, kill the courier, burn the letter, Hatuur was very specific, the letter must be destroyed and any eyes that had seen it. A fire still smoldered in the fireplace, so he tossed the letter onto the coals and turned to attend to the courier. Smooth as silk, hard as steel, sharp as a knife, he was an infiltrator of the Daru'khesh, this task was as good as done. He crept to the bed, slid his hand over the mouth of the courier as the blade of the knife parted the flesh of the courier's neck. He struggled slightly as the blood flowed from the wound, warm, wet and sticky. The fire flared as the letter was consumed, casting dancing shadows and light across the room. He turned quickly at the sudden illumination and the floored creaked under his feet. Still as stone, quiet as the grave, he thought as he stopped moving. If the guard in the hall heard that, the way out would be far more difficult than getting in was. The door creaked open and Jatuun jumped to catch the guard unaware, stabbing again and again, hoping to drop him before he could raise the alarm. As the guard slumped to the floor, Jatuun pulled his cloak up over his head and moved to the window. He glanced quickly outside before slipping out and back down the drainpipe. Crossing quickly back across the square, he paused again to wait for two unobservant city guards to pass him. The message Hatuur was afraid would get through was taken care of, the writer dead, the message burned and the courier killed in his bed. In the morning I will be Jatuun the innkeep, he thought, but tonight I am Jatuun, infiltrator of the Daru'khesh, a Dhakaani and we are but ghosts, we do not exist.
goblin_pride 01-08-07, 02:07 PM	Attacking a caravan this close to Sterngate might be risky, Daar'gal thought to himself. I suppose that if we can annoy the humans enough they might force Haruuc's hand and force him to march. He raised the glasses to his eyes again and watched to see if their scout's report was right. A hobgoblin should be at the heart of a battlefield, he thought, not planning raids on caravans. These Marghuul were fierce warriors, but he would rather lead them in the sack of Rhukaan Draal, not slaughtering the human traders and stealing their goods. Watching the passes for any sign of Haruuc's banner was annoying, we should rally what troops we have and take their city like the ancients did. As the caravan rounded the curve and started down the track, he raised his hand to signal the troops he had to prepare themselves. Less than a dozen guards, this bloody business would be terribly swift. The humans have no idea of the horrendous slaughter that awaits them, more than three dozen well armed, well disciplined bugbear raiders line the sides of the path. When the first wagon reached the ambush point, Daar'gal dropped his hand signalling his men to close the trap. Putting the glasses back into their case, he waited for his sergeant to tell him the deed was done. This raiding of caravans didn't need an experienced battlefield commander, a sergeant could easily handle things. War is on the horizon, but waiting for it to arrive may be too much for a captain of the Dhakaani armies to take.
goblin_pride 01-08-07, 02:15 PM	I hope no one minds if I expand this with fluff text, I think the fluff text approach is more appealing than just adding post after post of game mechanic posts. Let me know if there's something specific that appeals to you and I'll try to include more along those lines. Otherwise, without feedback I'm just going to follow along the path my mind chooses and at times it tends to be a tad on the chaotic side.
goblin_pride 01-08-07, 03:20 PM	Dagdaruun moved slowly through the Bloody Market, looking from vendor to vendor. He paused here and there, taking time to look at the goods being offered. The silk of his clothing set him apart from the others and when he moved through the market people noticed. He paused when he came to the Inn on the north side of the market. Stepping under the canopy he sat down on the cushions arrayed in front of the place. When the innkeeper came out with tea, he spoke. "So, Jatuun, can I tell my master that you've slaughtered a fatted calf in his honor?" Jatuun sat down and lifted a cup to his lips, pausing to answer first, "that you can." After drinking he said to the Hobgoblin, "it was rather a foul creature though, so I had to kill another." Dagdaruun looked pleased, "and you burned an offering to the old gods for him, I hope." Jatuun gestured widely with a flourish and said, "have I ever failed to make an offering for your master?" He reached for a pair of kebabs and offered one to his old friend. "I expect he should be quite pleased."
goblin_pride 01-08-07, 07:46 PM	If Post #649 makes you wonder what happened to the agnosticism of the Dhakaani, reread post #646 and then #649 again. I'm saving myself from having to answer dozens of posts pointing out that the Dhakaani were agnostic. If you caught the allusion the first time 'round, ignore this post.
eehamburg 01-09-07, 12:12 PM	I hope no one minds if I expand this with fluff text, I think the fluff text approach is more appealing than just adding post after post of game mechanic posts. Let me know if there's something specific that appeals to you and I'll try to include more along those lines. Otherwise, without feedback I'm just going to follow along the path my mind chooses and at times it tends to be a tad on the chaotic side. The fluff is fine because it adds dimension and character ... besides, it's interesting.
goblin_pride 01-09-07, 05:29 PM	"The fat git is outside," Hatuur said to Madoc, the tone flat an smooth, hoping it would calm the tempermental general, "should I show him in?" "Show the little twit into Dolurrh for all I care." The general hissed, the sound of his voice dripping with venom. "We could, of course use this fat fool for what he will eventually be." Hatuur suggested. "What in the name of the Empress are you talking about?" Hatuur looked at his commander and continued. "We have been using merchants to do our work for years. This one has a generalship that we can use as the authority behind some of our less than savory tasks that further our plans. Having one in such a high position to take the blame if an operation goes awry could be valuable." Madoc's face went blank. "I see, a general we can use to insulate ourselves from blame if things go awry and hang if the council disapproves of something we do." Hatuur raised an eyebrow as he half-turned towards Madoc. "You're beginning to learn, I was wondering when you would see the fool in that light." "Yes, yes, you're smarter than I am. Always seeing multiple angles to everything. Show our ally, general To'ova in so that we can confer on how best to link our cut-throats to his spies." Madoc said as he walked out of the antechamber and into his own office. Hatuur shook his head as he moved to the outer door.
goblin_pride 01-09-07, 06:29 PM	"What are you two conspiring about?" Vaarsuva asked. Longshanks and Tuvaar turned as one to look at him and Tuvaar spoke. "shh, To'ova went into Madoc's office a half-hour ago." Vaarsuva shook his head disapprovingly. "Does Hatuur know they're in the same room?" Longshanks answered this time, "Hatuur showed him in." Vaarsuva stepped onto the balcony that looked out onto the training floor and looked across towards Madoc's office. "What are they saying, Longshanks?" "I can't make all of it out, Madoc has a nasty habit of facing away from the balcony when he speaks, almost like the little bugger knows we're watching." The trio paused to look at each other. "The git thanked him for the armor and swords, though. He even asked if Madoc would show him how to wear them properly." "Sticking out of random organs is not the proper way to wear your swords," Tuvaar said and the trio burst out laughing. After they recovered, Longshanks continued, "they've been talking about the maps and some letter. All quite civil, really." "I don't see chains in any of your hands and if I recall, this room is for chain practice," boomed Daraak from behind the trio of skulking generals, "or did the fireworks begin?" "No fireworks yet," Longshanks said, disappointed. When Hatuur entered the room on the other side of the courtyard, Daraak spoke, "that room across the way has two of the most cunning creatures in this citadel in it. To'ova is a mindless, prattling git, but Hatuur and Madoc are a dangerous combination. Madoc is a cut-throat, but Hatuur would convince you to cut your own throat with little difficulty." After a lengthy pause, Daraak grabbed Tuvaar and Vaarsuva by their collars and dragged them towards the middle of the room, saying, "No fireworks today, we may as well train, neh?"
goblin_pride 01-09-07, 07:36 PM	Dagdaruun looked at the little manling as he loaded the pigs of iron onto wagons to be shipped back into Breland. He chuckled a bit as he counted out the coins. Hatuur was right, he thought to himself. "everything right then?" the little manling said to him. "all the coins there?" "They seem to be," the Hobgoblin said, "be sure to come back when that runs out, the Marghuul have some of the richest iron mines in the country." "They certainly seem to, this is some of the most refined ore for sale in this place." The little manling continued, "How much can they produce quickly? The Kalkor raids are making the masters of my house consider moving the production here to Darguun." "I'm certain that I could arrange something, the bugbears aren't terribly bright in matters of trade, I could probably coax a bit more production out of them with the proper motivation." Letting out a chuckle, knowing full well that the manling would make assumptions, he continued, "It'll be expensive to produce enough to cover all of your master's needs but I'm quite certain a few hundred goblin workers won't cost me too heavily." "You'll have coin aplenty if we move here, my friend." The manling smiled and waved as he followed the wagons down the track towards the field where the caravans assemble. Dagdaruun chuckled as he walked inside his warehouse. If the manlings knew that iron was the armor and weapons that the Kalkor raiders had stolen from them just last week they would be rather upset, he thought to himself. I'm not sure we haven't sold that same iron to them a hundred times or more, but their coins are good each time and it's funding most of Hatuur's operations here in Rhukaan Draal. "Fetch me a messenger, I'll have a letter for Hatuur in about ten minutes and I need it in his hands before morning," he told the goblin stacking iron ingots near the office. "yes sir" the goblin snapped before running off. As he walked into the office, Dagdaruun chuckled.
goblin_pride 01-09-07, 08:46 PM	"You, my friend, should've been born a bugbear." Daraak said, not looking up from the duty reports in front of him. "Hardly, you and I prefer different fights." Hatuur continued, "A message came to me this morning from Rhukaan Draal, we need to step up the raids on the caravans along the Marghuul Pass, the humans are considering moving their manufacturing to Darguun." "It'll be a bit tough to raid caravans when they start making the weapons and armor here." Daraak looked up, hoping there was some explanation coming. Hatuur looked at him, wondering, "you haven't puzzled it out yet? I'm rather shocked, I had always thought you brighter than the others." "You were going to tell me about the plan, weren't you?" Hatuur, taken back by the old bugbear's interest in the more subtle portions of the plan, said, "If we can get them to move their base of operations to Darguun, when we seize the capital we'll seize a portion of the war production capabilities of the kingdom of Breland as well. Put simply, I'm trying to get them to put all the eggs in one basket." "And the fat merchant?" "A useless scapegoat, I put him forward in the Council so that I would have a figurehead. Madoc wouldn't do any longer, he's become too good to waste in such a way." Hatuur paused, "how did you know I was here?" "You're still dragging that leg." Daraak said, matter of fact. "What about the others? Vaarsuva, Tuvaar and Longshanks, were they part of your plan?" "All capable, that's why they're generals. I need generals for the combat aspects that I don't need to mollycoddle. You know how this game works, we've been playing the game of kings since our youth." "How long do we have until this plan bears fruit?" "It already has, old friend, we've tripled the coin in our treasury, we've got troops engaged with the enemy all along the Seawall and we're moving to decapitate the Ghaal'dar. The only real sticking point is the pair of imperial whelps arguing who gets the throne." Hatuur paused for a moment. "Does the political battlefield worry you?" "No, I have an excellent commander in that battle," Daraak replied. After a long pause, Daraak asked, "what about me, am I just another of your puppets?" When he got no answer he turned to look and the little clerk was gone.
goblin_pride 01-10-07, 02:36 AM	To'ova was pleased with himself. The armor fit, but he wasn't completely sure he had put it on correctly. The mask seemed akward, but looking at himself in the glass, he hardly recognized the fierce warrior that looked back at him. Let them laugh at me now in the market, he thought, I can have them killed. "Sir?" It was Yuni, the servant girl that Hatuur had suggested. "What is it, girl?" he said, "and be quick about it, I'm to review the first of my levies this afternoon." "Begging your pardon, but you don't need armor to review your troops and you've bound it on wrong." The girl's eyes never left the floor. "With this binding where you have it, you've left your kidneys exposed, a good warrior would see that and his dagger would leave you dying because of it." "What does a girl know about wearing armor and fighting?" He said, looking to see the opening she pointed out. "A thousand apologies, sir, I thought you were aware." "Aware of what, that a girl thinks she knows more about fighting than a general of the Citadel?" He said, the contempt in his voice almost palpable. He raised his hand to backhand the girl for speaking out of place, but before he could connect, she dropped to the floor, locked her legs around his and rolled, bringing the fat merchant face-first into the floor. Yuni was on her feet and astride the fat man's back in a heartbeat, her hand grasping his wrist with his arm pulled behind him as far as it would go without wrenching it completely from it's socket. "A knife like this one, put right here, would bleed you slowly, you'd take hours to die, but you would die, you contemptuous slug." "Guards," shrieked the merchant-general as loud as he could muster. Only mere seconds passed before the pair of hobgoblins from outside were standing in the doorway. "Out, now," Yuni snapped at them, "or I'll take great pleasure watching you dangle from the eaves." The guards gave a quick nod and returned to the hallway. Again Yuni spoke to To'ova, "You wretched little slug, I am Yuni, a Captain of Infiltrators, and the commander of your guards, if you ever dare to raise a hand to strike me again without cause, I will bleed you out myself." She loosened her grip and let the merchant off the floor. "My father asked me to take command of your guards because you couldn't defend yourself from a mildly agitated rat. I have been trained since I was very young in the use of armor and weapons, so you had better show proper respect, merchant." "You're the captain of my guards?" he managed to utter, stammering out the words poorly. "Why did you attack me?" "You are not a merchant any longer, fool, you are a general of the citadel. Any other general would know that to strike another warrior without cause in this place leaves a warrior free to defend himself." She straghtened her clothing, slipping the dagger back into it's place, a sheath concealed up her left sleeve. "I have given you a first lesson, consider yourself lucky I didn't give you a scar to remind you." "My apologies, Captain, I did not know." the merchant said, almost meaning it. "You should have. The council may have made you a General, but to the other warriors of this Citadel, you are a merchant, that will make protecting you difficult. As the Captain of your guard, I will have to be twice the warrior because you aren't a warrior at all." Yuni walked to the balcony, and said, "Now remove my uncle's armor so we can go see what kind of troops your levy has drawn."
goblin_pride 01-10-07, 11:29 AM	Hatuur hobbled down the wide hall towards the council chamber. When he reached the doors that led to the council itself he paused to remove his overmantle and hand it to a waiting servant. He turned towards the two great doors and the hobgoblin guards dressed all in black, their armor and weapons somber and solemn, as fit their duty. As Hatuur approached, dressed in his black trousers, ceremonial dagger at his waist, one of the guards raised his hand. "None shall go armed within, citizen," the guard said, flat and emotionless, "the word of the empress is weapon enough." "A powerful weapon it is, as three have become one. But alas, I am but thirteen." Hatuur said, holding up the hand wearing the signet of the black order. "How do you stand, citizen," the guard said, voice unchanged, "at the doom of the empire?" "In the darkness, looking out, a beacon of the empress' light for all that would see." Hatuur said. "You may pass, brother," the guard said, "I am blinded by your light, I see no weapon." Hatuur felt relieved when the guards pulled the doors open. It was always this way, he never grew comfortable with the ritualized questioning. All weapons are prohibited in the council chambers with the sole exception being the ceremonial daggers of the black order, those sworn to defend the empire against any enemy. Even now, wearing the ring of the inner circle, the thirteen most powerful of the black order, he still felt as though he was violating her own dictates that none shall come before the empress armed. Climbing down the stairs he could hear the mindless droning on of the merchant clans pushing for more freedom to move beyond Volaar Draal with their caravans. As he reached his seat and saw the younger of his clan's delegation, Hatuur said "anything of interest or just more of this mindless babbling?" "More of the same," said Jolan, second advocate of the Daru'khesh, "I would love to explain the need for our secrecy to those braying asses. Your nomination of one of their number to generalship caused this sudden push to expand the routes of their caravans, you know." Looking around the chamber, Hatuur noticed that the warrior clans that once filled this chamber were now outnumbered by a sea of colored shirts. Once this council was more of a war council, the shirtless goblinoids that filled this hall would've easily understood the nature of the war they waged. They've become weak, barely one in ten was shirtless now, a sure sign that the people were not prepared for the war that was on the horizon. Hatuur turned to Jolan and said, "fear not little one, war is coming and that general of the merchants will restore faith in this council that we are the ones they should trust to lead the armies, even if it kills him."
goblin_pride 01-10-07, 02:02 PM	Madoc found Tuvaar and Daraak in the planning room, arguing how best to take Rhukaan Draal if Haruuc didn't commit all his forces in the hunt of the Kalkor. "Look, all I'm saying is that if Madoc can't seed the city with infiltrators before we crush their armies in the field, Taking the city will be long and hard," Tuvaar said. "I'm not doubting your abilities to storm the gates, I'm seeing the lack of engineers as the problem." "Bah, we don't need throats cut," Daraak responded, "they don't have walls around the city, just defensive fortresses in a ring along the outer edge. We can easily topple one or two and have a wide avenue to advance on Haruuc's keep in the center." "What Tuvaar is afraid of, Daraak," Madoc said, pulling a goblin-stand up to the wide table with a scale model of the city, and climbing up, "is the gnomes. Unless we can control the gnomes of Sivis, Haruuc will only have to hold us at bay long enough to get word to the manlings of Deneith to come and break the siege." "Exactly," Tuvaar added, "those gnomes and their ability to send messages to the Haruuc's allies outside the city will spell out our doom if the siege takes longer than it would take to march. With the limited engineers I have for the task of cracking his keep, it could take as long as a week clearing the space needed to bring the bigger engines to bear." "And with the troops staged at the Deneith recruiting fortress," Daraak said, suddenly seeing the problem, "it wouldn't take a week for reinforcements to arrive." "I could speed the process with additional bodies," Tuvaar said, "but plotting the trajectories and getting the ranging right would still require engineers. Then there's the matter of sight lines, without a clear line of fire, I could end up wasting time battering down buildings that block a clear shot at the fortress." "Rams, perhaps, to batter down the gates," Daraak offered, "that would allow us to ignore the walls completely." "These towers," Madoc said, pointing, "would cut down anyone trying to use a ram on the gates. Even a covered ram would have problems as they rained oil and fire down on it." "So it falls to cut-throats to open the gates from the inside then." Daraak said, his distaste obvious. "I run into the same problem young Tuvaar has," Madoc said, shaking his head, "goblins I have by the hundreds, bugbears are almost as common, but hobgoblin infiltrators are rare." "How is that a problem?" Tuvaar asked. Madoc pointed to the outer fortresses, "in these defenses, goblins are quite common, I could take one of them from the inside with no difficulty." Pointing to the central keep, he continued, "but here, this fortress that we must take quickly, is held almost exclusively by hobgoblins. In order to slip infiltrators in, they need to be unnoticed by the defenders, a goblin or bugbear can't pass as a hobgoblin." "So the Ghaal'dar thinking that a hobgoblin is best to rule hamstrings us?" Daraak asked. "How many do you have?" "Barely two dozen," Madoc said, "hobgoblins like Tuvaar or Vaarsuva are common, but a hobgoblin infiltrator is extremely rare. With so few to place they would almost all have to be devoted to opening the gates and putting them that close would make noticing them more likely and put them in great peril of having all the defenders on them before they could open the door for us. It would be a slaughter inside and we would still have to batter down the walls." "Aside from the few spies we have in the city," Madoc said, "we have very little in terms of resources. We could put the resources of our little merchant to task and try to buy some of the defenders, but that could leave us badly exposed." "How so?" Both looked at the goblin, but it was Tuvaar's voice that spoke. "As things stand, the Ghaal'dar and Haruuc don't know that we have the army that we do." Madoc began, "If we begin bribing the guards in their service, we may find one or two that are truly loyal to their masters and find ourselves betrayed. The plan to smash his army in the field could be compromised if the attempt to buy the soldiers in his citadel came to light." "How long would it take you to train additional infiltrators?" Daraak asked. "Too long," Madoc answered, "it would take years to teach them the skills needed and then get them into position inside the fortress. Without a way to flood their fortress with trained infiltrators from outside, we have to plant them inside before the siege even begins." "So we're stuck hoping that the fools take the bait and march their whole army out to deal with the raids?" Daraak asked. "Possibly," Madoc said, "I have people in the city looking for a backdoor I can use to get into their fortress, but so far the prospects are slim."
goblin_pride 01-10-07, 02:27 PM	Just for my own gratification, did that leave enough loose threads that you could start your own campaign or should I continue to make the tapestry bigger? I was hoping that through the fluff text pieces I could paint a picture of the Dhakaani as a people with as varied and vibrant a society as any other and alter slightly the image people have of goblinoids in general. I realize that they come off a bit martial, but with the material presented thus far, the canon points to that as well. Any thoughts, criticism or praise would be most welcome and will help me to further develop along lines that would possibly be more of an interest to you.
MetaEidolon 01-11-07, 02:48 AM	Just for my own gratification, did that leave enough loose threads that you could start your own campaign or should I continue to make the tapestry bigger? I was hoping that through the fluff text pieces I could paint a picture of the Dhakaani as a people with as varied and vibrant a society as any other and alter slightly the image people have of goblinoids in general. I realize that they come off a bit martial, but with the material presented thus far, the canon points to that as well. Any thoughts, criticism or praise would be most welcome and will help me to further develop along lines that would possibly be more of an interest to you. First of all, great work! I lurk the boards daily, but this is the only thread I really keep tabs on. Your story line and the other fluff pieces you have written have inspired and helped me to create and constantly develop the goblin swordsage I currently play. Keep up the great work! For my own selfish edification, I would like to see some of what is going on in Sharn and Breland in this plot arc, some of the personailities there, and also the Silent Clans and the role they play for both sides of the conflict. (my swordsage is an il'khesh in Sharn, and I'm trying to get my DM to run with this for a stretch) Thanks again for some great reading material!
goblin_pride 01-11-07, 10:11 AM	For my own selfish edification, I would like to see some of what is going on in Sharn and Breland in this plot arc, some of the personailities there, and also the Silent Clans and the role they play for both sides of the conflict. (my swordsage is an il'khesh in Sharn, and I'm trying to get my DM to run with this for a stretch) Madoc, Hatuur, Jatuun, Jolan and Yuni in the storyline are all Daru'khesh, as is Kethet Trollbait from the letters (Who lives in Lower Dura in Sharn, by the way). I've primarily focused on the Darguun factions for the time being because Trollbait is the character I play in Lordalm's campaign. Longshanks is a Taarka'khesh, but I've been saving him while trying to come up with a really good story arc with him at it's center. The infiltrators of the silent clans have been stretching out into all the nations since the rebellion that created Darguun, some even serving as mercenaries in the armies of the Last War. Information gathering and assessments of the city goblins for fighting quality is one of the primary tasks in most of the nations surrounding Darguun, with an eye towards creating a fifth column of city goblins taught Dhakaani ways and tactics. Trollbait's ultimate goal is to raise an army built from the ground up using only Sharn goblins and seize control of the city just as the armies of the empire raze the Sterngate and pour into Breland. There's a reference to a Dhakaani remnant living in close proximity to Yarkuun Draal in the Five Nations that I plan to develop a bit more. But with all things, the pace at which it comes to me is random at best. I'll post a dozen items one day and then hit a gap of a week waiting for inspiration to hit again, so it's difficult crafting the loose ideas together sometimes.
goblin_pride 01-11-07, 12:14 PM	Taluur leaned out from the ledge a bit farther, the rope wrapped around his calf stretched taut. "Kethet was right," he said to himself, "these city goblins have perverted themselves with the human greed and selfishness." He nocked an arrow and pulled the string to his chin. The recurve of his bow flexed to it's maximum, he sighted down the shaft at the goblins dividing the spoils that they had just stolen from another of their kind. "Steal not from your brethren," he said, "for if you are truly in need they will give it to you." He loosed the first and hit his mark, the screeching from below a comfort to his ears as the unjust find punishment at his hands. The second shaft struck home as well, and the third, and another, and another. After returning his bow to it's proper place in his quiver, he slipped the rope from his calf and slid down it's length to the walkway below. The rain came softly at first, a slight drizzle that would soon become a torrent from above. So much the better to hide his grizzly work this day. Shaking his grapple loose he gathered the rope before setting to his task. As he severed the heads from these wretched creatures, he thought back to the days when he was a Keeper of the Law in Volaar Draal. The commandments of the Dhakaan were sacred there, few would dare to violate the Word. Those who did would find themselves hunted by the Keepers. "Mine is a sacred task,' he recited, "to protect those who cannot protect themselves from the monsters among us and give comfort and vengeance to those who have been wronged." He stuffed the heads of these foul things into a sack, five more grizzly warnings to those who would steal from their own. "The Law is sacred," he said, "you should have known better, now your final service to the empire will be to warn others of your kind." The walkways were a river and the towers a waterfall by the time he dumped the bodies over the rail. He found himself struggling against the current anyway, "better children shouldn't see these reminders of my work. The heads will be enough." Making his way to the goblin market, he found the statue of the book in a niche along the inner wall. "Empress preserve me, I have brought further sacrifice to the word of Law. These five broke the Law of the empire and their heads shall bear mute witness to the might of Law and give warning to others who would disobey your edicts." He stacked the heads solemnly, taking great care that their eyes were open and facing into the market. He smeared their blood on his hand and left one bloody right handprint on the surface of the carved granite pages. Moving quickly, he left the shelter of the market and climbed into a niche farther up the wall of the tower. Pulling a blanket from his pack, he settled in to sleep, the rain soothing him to sleep. Kethet was right, he thought, Sharn is a wonderful city.
goblin_pride 01-11-07, 11:54 PM	A storm was building over the Graywall as Tuurek followed the track to the cave the orc had told him about. Ur'dar was a chieftain among his kind and held Tzaryan Rrac's ear it was said. With luck, these negotiations would place ogre warbands at the front of the battle to restore the empire of the Dhakaan. Spurring his mount on, he rushed towards the cave, not wanting to be caught in a downpour out here in the open. As he entered the cave, both he and old Kataan shook the water from themselves, goblin and wolf alike shaking violently in an attempt to dry off. "I have been making of fire," Ur'dar said, his grasp of the goblin tongue obviously poor, "coming to warm yourself you should." "My thanks," Tuurek said, slipping easily into the orc tongue, "have you had a chance to speak with your master?" "I have," the old orc said, still somewhat shocked that the goblin spoke such fluent orcish, "but he wishes to know what price his loyalty will fetch him from your masters." "For each of the ogres he can provide to us, we will pay their weight in silver immediately. Assuming the campaigns against Breland can be mounted soon after, he will recieve a kingship over a portion of the conquered territory equal to his domain here." Tuurek said, knowing full well the ogre's loyalty would exist only as long as wealth continued flowing to it. "His bloodline will be named the governor of central Breland and the Droaamite reaches once those territories are annexed. The only cost he will be forced to pay is loyalty to the Lhesh Dhakaan and obedience to Dhakaani law." "And what for the orc chiefs?" "Kingship over the orcish lands along the Graywall and estates in southwestern Breland." He said, knowing that the Council will disregard the orcs and smash these pathetic mercenaries as soon as Breland and Droaam are secured. "You will be allies of the Dhakaani and answer only to the Emperor himself, it will be the task of your kings to rule their portion of the empire." "We may have a bargain, little Dhakaani," the orc said, his grin showing the broken tusk on the right side as he spoke, "I will have to confer with my master on this, however. There is food enough here for several weeks, if you wish to wait for my return. It will take a day to hike there and another to get back, so I will most likely have your answer in three days." Tuurek watched as the old orc chieftain trudged out into the downpour, the lust for power pushing him far harder than his old frame could have otherwise. It is a dangerous business, this. If the orcs or ogres knew what reward they would recieve for their service, they would have killed him weeks ago rather than making the deal that may seal the fate of the Ghaal'dar and deliver the usurper Haruuc to the Dhakaani.
goblin_pride 01-12-07, 10:01 AM	"Taluur? Kethet? Yatzuur?" Ghaash called out, growing irritated. "I am the only one here, Captain," little Hratec answered, "the others are off doing the things only they can do." "And what is it you can do?" Ghaash asked, knowing the answer wouldn't please him. "I am and have been reviewing the catelogue of artifacts in the museum that Yatzuur secured for me. Judging by the number of uncatelogued crates, these manlings would seem to have decided the giants are more worthy of study." the little historian said, still reading. "I would suggest sending the others in for the uncatelogued crates first, reclaiming the items the museum's curators know they have will arouse suspicion and put us at great risk." "Do you plan to take them out of the museum one at a time?" Ghaash asked, dumbfounded. Hratec looked up from the book and stared at the hobgoblin for a moment, then said, "You do of course realize that the museum houses enough artifacts of our people that we would need a small army to carry them out, don't you?" "How many crates are there?" Ghaash asked, not particularly certain he wanted to know. "Enough that if a few go missing they won't notice them for many weeks. From the ledger here, I would say the quantity is somewhere near a thousand uncatelogued crates. The ones that have been catelogued are close to five hundred, possibly six." Hratec paused to let the commander grasp the sheer quantity before continuing, "I would suggest leaving the pottery shards and the like and focus on the books, weapons, armors and possibly the tools. The easily portable items will be more likely to be smuggled back into Darguun safely and the carriers less likely to be caught. I realize that leaving the imperial dinnerware might be considered an affront to our traditions, but the other items may ensure that we can rebuild the empire and seize the rest by force." "Have you already plotted a timeline for the thefts?" Ghaash asked. "I have Yatzuur already working on the recovery, he should be back within a few hours." Hratec said, "there is wine on the table over there, fill two cups and you can join me in waiting for him." Handing Hratec a cup of the spiced wine, Ghaash said, disappointed, "It would seem the lecturer is going to continue teaching the manlings about Dhakaani history for some months, eh?"
goblin_pride 01-12-07, 10:51 AM	Yatzuur paused, looking down from the window alcove, scanning the street below for signs he had been seen. No guards running, no whistles sounding, he pushed open the window that he left unlocked from his last visit. Sliding soundlessly to the floor, he crept a few steps forward, hoping that the guards had decided to find something to do other than patrolling between these dusty crates. He knew he could sneak past any living creature without their notice, but this was something else. Moving along the rows of crates, he paused at one, trying to read the label. Pulling a pry bar from his pack, he pried the lid loose and lifted it as quietly as he could. Once out of the way, he pulled the needle-like awl from his belt and opened the holes a bit wider where the nails had been. Reaching into the crate he brushed away the straw looking to find the contents. At the bottom of it he found what he was looking for, wrapped in a rough cloth. He lifted it gingerly from it's resting place and began to unwrap it. Hearing the door open at the other end of the hall, he stopped moving. The guards must have realized their duty. He set the object down gently and climbed into the crate. As swiftly as he could, he grabbed the lid and pulled it back into place over him. It settled into place perfectly, he was now safely hidden inside the crate and he listened for them to pass. The guards babbled something that he couldn't make out, but it didn't matter. The fact that they were here was all that mattered. He listened until they reached the door and waited for the sound of it closing before he lifted the lid. Reaching in below him, he grasped the rough cloth and quickly unwrapped the item inside. Inside was a circlet, roughly crafted, and obviously belonging to a warrior-king. He checked it quickly for the inscription on the inside. It was badly worn, but there was an inscription. "A crown of Iron for the king of the Graywall, Third of the six" Tucking the circlet into his pack, he gathered up the rest of the contents quickly. Hratec would be pleased, a second of the six crowns of the Dhakaani Warlords are back into our possession, he thought. He emptied the crate of all it's contents except the stone marker. Leaving the marker would be a great loss to the people of the empire, but the regalia of the Ironlord were more important. "Forgive me, great one," he whispered, "Your grave marker is too large for me to carry, but your regalia are back in the hands of your people." Slipping the lid back into place, he vowed to himself he would return for the stone later. As he climbed the wall to leave again, he wondered what other treasures of his people were here, stolen from the graves of the Dhakaani and housed like some curiosity, waiting to be paraded before the world. The humans didn't conquer the Dhakaani, one day they will be punished for looting the old places. He slipped from the window and climbed back down from the alcove. The handholds were abundant, the humans that built this place had never thought goblins from the mountains would come to reclaim the treasures of their people or they would have built the walls smooth. One day, he thought, I will parade the crown of your kings in triumph, one day a Dhakaani will rule this land.
goblin_pride 01-12-07, 11:22 AM	Barek'dan shuffled uneasily, this waiting wasn't comfortable to him. He looked towards the towers of Sterngate, knowing that at any moment the guards from that place could swarm out and seal the border. He found his commander in the tavern, making small-talk with the barmaid. "Try to relax old friend," Dar'gaal said, "the courier will be here anytime now." "I cannot do this," Barek'dan said, "this skulking so close to the humans without attacking them is too much for me. You should have brought one of the others." "Ah, but you forget," the captain said, "if I had brought one of the others, I wouldn't know I was safe if they did discover the business we were about." "That is true," the bugbear said, relaxing a bit, "the others could not hold their own so heavily outnumbered. But I am afraid that being so close to them I may cause us to be discovered." "Nonsense, " Dar'gaal said, "you are my guard, it is good you are being cautious so close to an enemy nation. Those humans would see us all killed if not for that piece of paper they signed so many years ago." The hobgoblin leaned in close, "The trick, my friend is to pretend you are supposed to be here. If you act as though nothing is amiss, they will think nothing is amiss." "I would still rather be hunting them than hiding so close." Barek'dan grunted. "As would I, my friend, as would I."
goblin_pride 01-12-07, 12:07 PM	Hatuur laid a book on the table next to Tuvaar. "I believe, my lord general, I may have found a partial solution to your manpower shortage." "A book of genealogy? How does that solve my problem?" Tuvaar looked perplexed. "This book contains the bloodlines of the Byeshk range goblinoids from the period before the fall of Cazhaak Draal. It would seem that in the city of Suthar Draal's history there was a similar problem. They got around a lack of manual labor by breeding Hobgoblin engineers with ogre slaves, much like the orc tribes had been doing for many centuries." the old clerk, paused to see if the idea had struck the young general and continued, "The offspring were almost double their father's size and far stronger than a tribex." "You bring me a suggestion that I use some ancient fairytale to end a siege faster?" Tuvaar looked for some sign of madness in the old goblin. "No," Hatuur said, "I bring you the suggestion that you send scouts to ascertain if the clan that came from these matings still exists and if they held onto the traditions of the Dhakaani." "They were Dhakaani? Ogre half-breeds?" Tuvaar's look went from disgusted to curious. "Yes, I found it odd myself," the clerk continued, "It seems that they made up a full tenth of the population of the Draal before the Daelkyr attacked. Sadly, the record since the attack aren't as complete." "I should find Longshanks, shouldn't I?" Tuvaar said, scrambling to his feet and moving quickly for the door. "I would" Hatuur said, a grin beginning to turn up the corners of his mouth.
goblin_pride 01-12-07, 05:50 PM	Tuulva Prowled the banks of the rice fields looking for his seargent. He found him at the southern reaches atop a tower gazing at something downslope from the village. "What is it you see, old friend?" "It looks like some animal, I can't be certain, I forgot to bring the farseeing glasses when I came out here." Jataan said. "I wasn't expecting to have to look downslope while I repaired this tower." "Here," Tuulva said, tossing his glasses up to his sergeant, "tell me what it is." "Nothing," Jataan said, "A Bighorn ram that would easily feed the village for two days, maybe three. Not something that we should worry about. If I had my bow, we would eat well tonight." "I say we leave it be, perhaps it will bring friends when it comes back to graze again." Tuulva said, "The governor will mark himself rich if a flock of Bighorn take up residence just downslope of the village. I have more depressing news that requires your attention." "What is it?" Jataan asked, "It must be very grave for you to make a face that ugly." "I have had word from the Citadel," Tuulva began, "the news is foul, they want my sergeants. My congratulations, you are my equal now, Captain. Although I think your brother may dislike the news even more than you." "Why would they promote me?" Jataan asked, "Im hardly qualified to command." "You are an honorable brother of the Daru'khesh and have earned two of the other marks of that kinship," Tuulva said, "You are more qualified than any other from this village. Besides, I sent a reply with the courier that brought me the message. You are now a captain, I am to help you levy the troops of your command and prepare your troops and mine for combat. We will recieve marching orders sometime in the near future." "What of the village," Jataan asked, the concern showing on his face, "Are we to leave our homes defenseless?" "No, old friend, but perhaps you should read the order yourself." Tuulva held out the rolled parchment for his former sergeant. Taking the rolled parchment, Jataan began to read. "They want our daughters now too?" he said, amazement painted on his face. "Which one is to lead them?" "I had thought your sister, but I wanted to confer with you first." Tuulva said, looking to his old friend for some sign it was a good choice. "I've seen bugbears less hostile and dangerous as her, I would say it is a good choice," Jataan smiled as he said it, "But you get the dubious distinction of training her. I'll not be remembered as the one that put swords in her hands."
goblin_pride 01-12-07, 07:20 PM	Vaarsuva found Tuvaar near the stables. "Daraak tells me that you fall short of trained laborers and engineers." "Yes,", Tuvaar said, "the number of engineers is far short for our expected tasks. Have you anyone qualified to be taught?" "Between you and Madoc, I'm left with very few capable of any level of quality education." Vaarsuva said, "but if you wish to have one of your captains begin testing for competency, you have my blessing." After a brief pause, Vaarsuva continued, "I was reading a report from one of the scouts on these Warforged creatures that the manlings built for their civil war. A few have come into possession of clans beyond the wall. Do you suppose a few of those might help alleviate your problems?" "Possibly," Tuvaar said, "But I would need to find a large number of them to be able to make any real difference. We are talking about a siege of a city of over one hundred thousand taking days instead of weeks. I've been reviewing the scouts' reports and laying out a timetable. We cannot take the fortress at the heart of Rhukaan Draal before the troops from Deneith arrive." "Are you telling me that we'll lose?" Vaarsuva asked. "Not by any means," Tuvaar said, "But we will be encircled on the third to fifth day of the siege, which means we'll be defending ourselves on the outside without walls and reducing the walls of the fortress in the heart of the city at the same time. I can plan for the defense of our positions, but that will increase the time battering down Haruuc's fortress." "No word from the envoys to the orcs and ogres of Droaam, I take it." Vaarsuva said. "No, Madoc assures me that his people will have word any day now." Tuvaar said, "But I dislike the idea of promising them kingdoms within the empire and betraying them after we have a firm grasp of Darguun." "We aren't betraying them," Vaarsuva said, "They will have their kingdoms, but they will be established after we are able to bring war to those on our borders. I would prefer to limit the number of foreign provinces in the rebuilt empire, but the petty kingdoms that bend their knee to us will be acceptable." "Has it occured to you that we will be at a disadvantage," Tuvaar asked, "when we have Darguun under control and we move armies into Droaam to re-establish the the imperial presence there?" "We won't be," Vaarsuva said, "I have no intention of establishing the kingdoms of the orcs and ogres for them, they will lay those foundations themselves or they will become subjects when we do reach there." "About these Warforged," Tuvaar asked, "were you thinking of offering them a place in the empire for their service?" "Possibly, but it is up to the council to recognize their clans." Vaarsuva said.
goblin_pride 01-13-07, 03:42 PM	Longshanks threw open the doors, "Generals, I need you now," he shouted, knowing they would be within the sound of his voice, "We have a problem that requires immediate attention." "What is it?", Daraak asked, the first through the doors of the planning room. "The snows have come to the high villages," Longshanks said, knowing he would have to explain further for the others. "If we don't start evacuating the villagers here soon, we may not be able to until spring." Daraak pushed the door open and yelled at the guard outside, "Get me captains from the Dawntreader and Snowwalker clans up here now, as well as captains from any of the other high-mountain clans." "Yes sir," snapped the guard, "right away." "What are you two yelling about?" Vaarsuva asked, irritated. "The snows have come early and with a vengeance," Longshanks said, "we need to start evacuating the High-mountain villages to Serenity or we'll lose a good number of our scouts and shock troops." "If the Ghaal'dar move against the Marghuul while our troops are trapped in the valleys beyond the high passes, we'll never be able to defeat them." Daraak said. Longshanks grabbed a map from the scribing desk and laid it on the table. "These three passes are completely snowed in, Daraak has already summoned the captains we have that know those passes to see if there's a way to get in and out with the snow blocking the passes." "What do these four passes look like, Longshanks?" Daraak asked. "Waist-deep on a goblin already and a storm front moving in that could bury a bugbear within a day or two." the little scout said. "Empress preserve us," Daraak said, "we'll have under a week to get all the people of those villages below the snow line." He shuffled through a stack of paper from one of the shelves, holding one in front of him. "That's nearly three thousand people in the valleys we can't get to." "Guard," yelled Longshanks, "send runners to find any goblins from the Ridgerunner clan, I need them in the training hall in under a half-hour." "Where have you been, Tuvaar? I need sledges, tribex and handlers along the roads leading into these six valleys within two days," Daraak said, "enough to move roughly eight thousand people and their belongings back here." "Did I miss something?" Tuvaar asked. "Guard," shouted Daraak. "You seem to have run out of guards to send running," Madoc said, "May I be of assistance?" "Find the quartermasters. We need rope, pitons, bamboo for snowshoes and sleds to drag the materials out of these villages. We also need burlap for making shelters in the valleys while we work and furs for heavy winter clothing." Daraak said. "As you wish, general." said Madoc, smiling. "I'll send additional runners up here for you to send scurrying as well." "We'll need foods high in fat for the troops making the trek through the snowed in...... Where'd Madoc go?" Longshanks asked. "You sent him running for the quartermasters." Vaarsuva said. "Calm yourselves, you have a half-hour to make your plans. I will tend to the food reserves for the troops making the crossing. You two need to focus yourselves and prepare to brief the scouts and stormguard that are going to be making the trek." After Vaarsuva left, Longshanks looked at Daraak and asked, "When did he become such a good leader?"
Alratan 01-13-07, 04:04 PM	Just like to say first that I strongly approve of this thread. Thinking on the bardic aspects of goblinoid culture a couple of possibilities presented themselves: The classic celtic bardic culture, where being the subject of a bardic satire was a terrible shame and insult, but responding violently only compounded your error. Essentially rhetoric and the like was the sublimation of physical aggressiveness into a less destructive format. For goblinoids this may be more important in maintaining a stable society than for humans. In a magical technology based around rhetoric and narratives, and mythic cycles, perhaps an explanation can be found for multi-millennial empires. The epics were themselves magical "items" in nature, after countless repetitions the Imperial Cycle and associated lesser myths themselves became enchanted. Thus, everyone in society would have a mythic archetype to aspire for, and not only that, one they were magically as well as culturally moulded to fit, as they heard the songs and stories over again. This would allow a culture to survive indefinetly, as the magic and society would mutually reinforce. The Daelkyr would break this as they subvert and corrupt the songs, introducing dissonance into the magically reinforced social structure, turning its strength against it - with all the consequences of social breakdown described above. The last ones just a wild suggestion.
goblin_pride 01-13-07, 04:18 PM	"Is something wrong?" To'ova asked. "Nothing you should worry about, General." Yuni answered. "The other generals are tending to the problem, you need to be focusing on your sword practice." "bah, I'm a general, what do I need to know swordsmanship for?" the Git asked, his disdain obvious. "Because the captains under your command will flock to another General's banner if you appear unschooled in war." Hatuur said, "and you will find yourself a general without an army if that happens." "The others have that matter well in hand, they're planning a miracle for this winter. One that the people of the empire will remember for generations if they succeed and if they fail, there probably won't be any people or an empire." Hatuur said. "I have faith in them that they will deliver us from this threat. It is a small matter considering the planning we've done so far against the Ghaal'dar." "The Ghaal'dar are simpletons, we can crush them with the weight of coin, Hatuur." The fat merchant said, "I have come into possession of a map that shows a stockpile Warforged. They should be quite easy to revive and return to service in the name of the empire." "Warforged?" Hatuur stared at the fat merchant. "Yes, a house Cannith enclave that was used to teach the walking weapons," To'ova said, "I was planning to go and fetch them as soon as possible, they will make excellent soldiers for my captains." "Perhaps we should mount an expedition to retrieve them," Hatuur said, "General Tuvaar may need your troops in the siege if they are indeed there." "Does it shock you, Merchant," Hatuur said, "that I saw a purpose to your being a general." "A little, yes. But I was afraid to ask what it might be, to be honest."
goblin_pride 01-14-07, 09:47 AM	Da'ankor paced the hall, checking the doors for signs of intruders. In the morning, he thought, I'll be serving To'ova and be a captain of a real general, not guarding warehouses and merchants from their rivals. Moving into the hall that leads to the warehouses, he tripped over something. Looking to see what it was, he became aware of the puddle he was sitting in. "GUARDS" he shouted, seeing the body in front of him, old Joruum's eyes staring up at him, empty. Scrambling to his feet he struggled with the door, trying to get into the residence hall. "GUARDS" he shouted again, looking for further signs of the thief that was bold enough to strike at a TwoCoin holding. Running down the hall, he came upon the grizzly sight. The master of the house's residence was breached. The guards at the entry slaughtered almost without a fight, Talaar's hand still on the sword half-drawn. Opening the door, sword in hand, Da'ankor, paused to listen. Hearing footfalls in the hall, Da'ankor braced himself for the fight that was to come. "Empress preserve me, I will not falter." he said, reassuring himself. He stepped into the hall to face the thief. "HALT, in the name of the master of TwoCoin." he said, to the creatures he hadn't seen. "TwoCoin is dead, guard, as will you be if you seek to prevent our exit." the voice smooth and even. "Your allegiance to your master is honorable, but it died with him." "Who goes there?" Da'ankor said. "A shadow, no one of consequence, I'm afraid," the voice said, "Are you to join your master?" "Come into the light" Da'ankor said. A figure appeared at the end of the hall, a gaunt goblin, dressed all in black. He moved towards the guard with a measured pace as others appeared behind him. The blade in his hand dripped blood as he crept closer to Da'ankor. "Are we to fight this day, Guard?" "Who are you?" Da'ankor asked. "I am a keeper of secrets, the master you serve sought to sell the Dhakaani into Ghaal'dar chains, I have righted this wrong and ushered him into the next life. Now, are we to fight?" The figure asked. The Keeper leapt, slicing high as Da'ankor dropped to a knee and sliced low. Both blades finding their mark and biting deep. Da'ankor felt the sting as his life blood drained from him, his sword arm not responding as he tried to raise it. The keeper of secrets lifted himself from the floor, blood seeping from the vicious wound on his leg. "You have served your master well, Guard," he said, "and fought bravely even against the odds. Your master's death was ordered, but the shame in this act is that one so loyal and brave should die with him." After waiting a moment to honor Da'ankor, the Keeper of secrets turned to the others and said, "He is dead. Go, quickly, we have much to do this night."
goblin_pride 01-14-07, 09:52 AM	In a magical technology based around rhetoric and narratives, and mythic cycles, perhaps an explanation can be found for multi-millennial empires. The epics were themselves magical "items" in nature, after countless repetitions the Imperial Cycle and associated lesser myths themselves became enchanted. Thus, everyone in society would have a mythic archetype to aspire for, and not only that, one they were magically as well as culturally moulded to fit, as they heard the songs and stories over again. This would allow a culture to survive indefinetly, as the magic and society would mutually reinforce. That sounds quite a bit more likely to be Valenar than Dhakaani.
goblin_pride 01-14-07, 10:04 AM	The classic celtic bardic culture, where being the subject of a bardic satire was a terrible shame and insult, but responding violently only compounded your error. Essentially rhetoric and the like was the sublimation of physical aggressiveness into a less destructive format. For goblinoids this may be more important in maintaining a stable society than for humans. Take it to another level, with goblinoids striving to make themselves more than the creature satired by the bards. Honor and dishonor are hard to guage but a Dhakaani finding himself ridiculed by a dirgesinger would strive to make himself a hero to others. Dhakaani bards, were the keepers of the culture, most of the histories of the old empire were sung, not written. While writing of history wasn't frowned on, the songs of the dirgesingers were a community affair. Whole communities would gather when a dirgesinger was around, regaling in the stories of the ancient heroes, dastardly villains, and the might of the Dhakaani way.
goblin_pride 01-14-07, 01:13 PM	"Come to break your fast with the Cut-throat, have you?" Madoc asked. "Who ordered it," Vaarsuva asked, "Who ordered the decimation of a merchant clan last night?" "I beg your pardon," Madoc said, the smile suddenly gone, "What merchant clan?" "One of To'ova's rivals found their house attacked last night," Vaarsuva said, "none survived. Seems the work of a master of cut-throats to me, I was wondering who ordered it." "Are you suggesting that I would dirty my hands slaughtering merchants?" Madoc said, his anger obviously roused. "Have you not known me long enough to know that I would not hide such an activity in the shadows?" "Have I?" Vaarsuva asked. "You have insulted me, General, prepare to defend yourself," Madoc shouted, drawing the short blade from his belt. The two squared off as they circled the room, looking for an opening in the other's defense. Vaarsuva held his long blade in front of him as he sidestepped a wide circle. Madoc's short blade was held down as he moved, watching closely the motions of the other general. As Vaarsuva bumped into the table, Madoc charged, using the chair to catapult himself over the hobgoblin's shoulder. As he stood from a crouched position, Madoc said, "Apology accepted" and resheathed his blade. Turning to Vaarsuva he said, "Now start at the begining and don't omit any details." Vaarsuva wiped the blood from the fresh cut on his cheek and said, "You didn't know, did you?"
lordalm 01-14-07, 02:33 PM	Couldn't you have come up with anything more original than that???? Sheesh .... I suppose I could reinvent the wheel, but the one we got works so well....:D
goblin_pride 01-14-07, 02:38 PM	To'ova was scared, Yuni could almost smell it on him. "Something wrong, general?" she asked, knowing the answer. "Someone killed TwoCoin. I wanted him dead often enough, but now that he is, I'll get blamed." the fat merchant stammered. "You won't be blamed," Yuni said, "none of the generals think you're capable of giving the order and they're quite sure you haven't anyone in your command capable of doing such a thorough job of it." "But Madoc and Vaarsuva fought over it this morning." the fat git said. "I doubt it was over you," Yuni said, "More likely they found something else to fight over." "I should tell your father this is a bad idea," the git started, "If the others were to find out, there would be trouble." Yuni rose to her feet and ordered the servants and guards out of the room. Turning on To'ova she said, "master merchant, general, I would suggest you learn to hold your tongue when there are ears present that are attached to tongues you don't control." Walking to the window, she continued, "One of my sergeants was injured during training last night, a deep wound to the thigh. He'll be unfit for duty for a few weeks." "Why are you telling me this?" the fat merchant asked. "It is something you should know about, considering he was leading the raid on the TwoCoin that you ordered." Yuni said, still looking out the window. "What?!?" said the merchant, sounding like he was about to faint. "You don't recall telling me to eliminate your old rival yesterday? I can remember it quite clearly and will be more than happy to tell the whole sordid tale to the council if you dare to speak of my uncle's plans again." Yuni said, watching a pair of hobgoblins squaring off in the training courtyard. "But I never ordered anything," the merchant sputtered, "You wouldn't have done it if I had." "Exactly," Yuni said, turning to see that he had wet himself again, "but will the council believe you, with all you have to gain, or me, who loses her position as captain to a general?" "You'd be sending me to the grave." the merchant said. "Then you had better do exactly what you are told, hadn't you?" Yuni said, walking out of the room.
goblin_pride 01-14-07, 03:36 PM	The wind howled outside the small cave deep in the Seawall. Inside, Gaarvan was sharpening his blades. The firelight danced on the walls as the wind outside swirled among the peaks and valleys. Replacing the blade he was working on in the rack by his bed he went to the mouth of his cave and shifted the fur hung there to shut out the wind. As he turned towards his bed, he was struck down as if by an unseen hand. "Gaarvan of the snow walkers, you have been chosen." The voice echoed. "You are to be the instrument of my will." "Who are you?" Gaarvan asked, his voice echoing off the walls of the cave. "I am of the Old Ones, I am the one your people once called War." The voice said, echoing. "I have chosen you to carry my standard for the children of Dhakaan when the ram's horn blows." "But the Dhakaani hide in the mountains and do not speak the names of the Old Ones any longer." Gaarvan said. A face of came into view, a hobgoblin face, horned and bloody, and the voice echoed loudly in Gaarvan's ear, "YOU DO, AND THAT IS ALL THAT MATTERS." Gaarvan awoke with a start, looking to the statuette of the horned god of war in the corner. It's black eyes stared back at him. "as you wish, my master, I will bear your standard in war for the children of the Dhakaan."
lordalm 01-14-07, 03:50 PM	Hatuur looked over his desk at the hobgoblin Artificier standing as close to attention as he could. He then looked down at a scrap of burnt paper. Clever to burn the evidence of his treasoness thoughts, not so clever to write them down and then not make sure they were fully destroyed. Putting him with To'ova's forces would be the best use of him. If he wised up and learned his place in the empire he might be of use, Hatuur mused, if not he could fall with his general when the time came. "Do you know why you are here," Hatuur asked? Quickly glancing down at the burnt scrap of paper the hob spoke, "I can hazard a guess," in careful tones. Hatuur eyed the hobgoblin sternly, "You are not fit in thought to be considered a Dhakaani. However, you may yet serve the Empire as sorce of information on the world around us." Hatuur marked the relaxing of the hobgoblin's stance as he relized he wasn't going to be executed immediately. "That is if I advise General Madoc to make use of your worthless hide." Hatuur concealed his grin as a grimace as the hobgoblin stiffened up again, ringlets of sweat forming on his clothing. "As you probally know we need all the Artificiers we have to aid us in restoring the knowledge lost during the Fall. You are keen to discover those secrets yourself, yes?" querried Hatuur. "Yes," replied the hobgoblin, a light kindling behind his eyes that Hatuur did not see when the Empire was spoken of. Hatuur sighed at the social decline that had led to the loss of one so promising to the Empire. "You know of To'ova's recent appointment to general?" Hatuur asked. "The Merchant General? Yes." responded the hobgoblin. "Well he is the General of Spies,"said Hatuur, "congragulations you are now a soldier under his banner." The hobgoblin's mouth fell open in surprise, only to snap shut with teeth cracking force. "I am a what!?" true anger showing and replacing the healthy fear that had dominated his constance since being show into Hatuur's presence. It was obvious, concerning his family troubles, that being in the service of a general was not high on the hobgoblin's list of life path choices. "Are you insane you old.." a look from Hatuur silencing the young hobgoblin before he could say anything that would demand his death. "You could always be executed." said Hatuur in pleasant voice. A sly grin finding its way on to his face. If not his eyes. The hobgoblin actually thought about for a few moments, which Hatuur gave him points for, but in the end he got the answer he was expecting. "Where do I report to?" the hobgoblin said sullenly. After dismissing the hobgoblin from his presence Hatuur gave thought of who to add to To'ova's forces to keep an eye on the hobgoblin, maybe even correct his thinking before his death would have to be insured. A certain goblin came to mind, Madoc wouldn't like losing the promising youngling. But sacrifices in war and all that. Now how best to show the road to Madoc?
goblin_pride 01-14-07, 06:46 PM	"who was it?" Madoc asked. "I really don't know what you mean, sir." Hatuur said. "Vaarsuva saw the compound," Madoc said, "he told me it could only have been done by my infiltrators." "What are you going on about, sir?" Hatuur said, laying the daily reports on his desk. "The merchants, I want to know who did it." Madoc said, growing irritated. "oh, that," Hatuur said, "I did." "I don't suppose there's an explanation forthcoming, is there?" Madoc said, "or am I to just guess the reason for such a pointless massacre?" "I needed a massacre of the moron's rivals so that doubt would be cast on his loyalties to the empire." Hatuur said, abandoning hope that Madoc would've seen through the plan already, "If we show that he is a greedy little twit that would turn the might of our armies on a rival in pursuit of coin, we can make the Council see that the military needs to be left solely under the control of it's generals." "Ah, I see," Madoc said, "but you realize I've already been blamed once for it today, don't you?" "Relax, little brother," Hatuur said, " I used Yuni's people for the attack. Since she's To'ova's Captain now, you'll be free of blame when the plot finally comes to light. Your defense of your honor this morning was the right course of action, it shifted blame away from you in Vaarsuva's eyes. I've laid the clues in the right order, it won't take long to discover the culprit. At least the culprit I want them to discover, that is. And when the army is back under the complete control of the generals, we can wage our war with impugnity" "Won't that leave Yuni exposed?" Madoc asked. "A captain following the orders of her general? What do you think?"
eehamburg 01-15-07, 09:27 AM	I suppose I could reinvent the wheel, but the one we got works so well....:D OY
goblin_pride 01-15-07, 11:08 AM	The three walked down the center of the lane, ignoring the goblinoids dodging out of their way. Their long black robes trailing them as the strode the length of the soldier's market. No one would meet their gaze, for fear of what it was they may see. They walked on, in unison, their pace measured and well practiced. Arriving at the gates to the Citadel, they stopped. The one in the middle, a goblin by the size of him, raised his gnarled right hand and pounded at the gate three times and the three spoke as one, "Dhakaani justice as at your door, throw open the gates that you may be judged." It was a hollow sound, like a chorus from beyond the very grave. A sentry pulled the large, iron-bound door open and dropped to his knees beyond it, and said, "We in this house are the subjects of the Dhakaan, we have no fear of her laws, come forth and judge." The three stepped inside and stopped. The small one in the center turned to the sentry, his milky white eyes staring as much through him as at him, and said, "The infirmary, you have one named Khoorva, show me to him." He straightened as the Hobgoblin sentry stood and ran ahead of the three as they made their procession into the bowels of the Citadel.
goblin_pride 01-15-07, 11:58 AM	The Keeper of the Peace waited patiently. When the little goblin finally appeared to notice him, it said, "To what do I owe the pleasure of a visit by a captain of peacekeepers? It is captain, isn't it, you haven't fallen that far from your military origins, I hope." "You are Hatuur, are you not?" the black-cloaked figure asked. "So much for you lot in the courts being all-knowing, I'm Madoc, Hatuur is my clerk." said Madoc, "and the sneaky little bugger is standing behind you." The Peacekeeper turned and said to Hatuur, "My apologies for disturbing your day, Citizen. But we have a slight problem." "What is it, Persecutor?" Hatuur asked. "The attack on the TwoCoin mercantile house has lead us to one of the generals of the Citadel." the Persecutor of Justice said, "and that is where the problem lies." "How so?" Hatuur asked. "The council seems to have complicted this matter by appointing a merchant-clan goblin to a military post." the Persecutor said, "The advocate for his clan in the courts knows well the laws of commerce but his grasp of military law is weak. Without a properly educated advocate, it would be a miscarriage of justice to try him." "So simply execute him and be done with it," Hatuur said, "He is military, after all." "I wish it were so simple," the persecutor said, "He's claiming no responsibility for it and demanding trial before the courts to defend himself. I am here to ask if you or one of the other military clans will put forth an advocate to defend this wretch." "Teach the snivelling, fat little snotling to dance and be done with it," Madoc said, annoyed. "We can loan you thicker rope if you need it." Hatuur glared at Madoc, turned to the persecutor and said, "I will defend him in the courts as best I can. You may tell the Justices that he has an advocate schooled in military law."
goblin_pride 01-15-07, 12:51 PM	Have we got enough material yet?
goblin_pride 01-15-07, 01:51 PM	"Looks like I misjudged you cut-throat," Vaarsuva said, scratching at the V-shaped scab on his cheek, "those guards down at To'ova's quarters say he had the merchants killed. One of these days, you'll have to teach me how to make that cut." "To'ova is a halfwit, how'd he do it?" Madoc asked. "He took as a captain one of your old sergeants." Vaarsuva said, "Yuni, Hatuur's niece. Wasn't her father the old goat whose armor you left for him?" "Yep," Madoc said, "Flick the wrist a quarter turn when the chisel edge of the blade hits flesh." "What?" Vaarsuva asked. "To make that cut," Madoc said, "Flick the wrist in the middle of the stroke. How long 'til the trial?" "Should be a few days at the most," Vaarsuva said, "That's it, just a flick of the wrist?" "You'd have better luck with a shortblade, that thing you use will probably gouge out the eye if you try it." Madoc said, "Hatuur is going to speak for him in the courts." "That's good to know. At least he'll have a decent defense." Vaarsuva said, ""So a shorter blade is better?" "It's the way you use it, a long blade is for making long wide slashes, a short blade is good for a quick stabbing attack as well." Madoc said, "It amazes me that you hobgoblins never think about the stab. A stab wound will drop an enemy long after you hit him, you don't have to kill right away, a stab wound will seep for weeks and fester on an enemy. You think To'ova did it?" "No way of knowing." Vaarsuva said, How do you know when you've bit deep enough with the blade?" "It's a trick that, a few times I've hit the cheekbones before and left a mess of it," Madoc said, "learn to focus on where the point of the blade is, it'll improve your skill with the long cuts as well. Any word if Yuni is being charged as well?" "Nothing yet, I saw her this morning," Vaarsuva said absent-mindedly holding his blade out in front of him, practicing the flick, "she was in the training court." "I told you," Madoc said, "use a short blade, you want a stab, not a slash."
goblin_pride 01-15-07, 02:20 PM	Dagdaruun smiled and leaned back in his chair. "Take my offer, friend, it's the best you'll ever recieve." he said. The letter he got this morning meant that the negotiations this afternoon would be rather one-sided. "Why should the TwoCoin take an offer of half what the goods are worth?" the little goblin said. A shrewd bargainer, Dagdaruun thought, but pointless. "TwoCoin is dead, the house wiped out two days ago." Dagdaruun said, "you're on your own now and the letters of credit in your pocket are worthless paper. I was offering you something for the goods you have and perhaps employment if you would seek it." "What do you mean wiped out?" the wily bargainer asked, "Who would dare such a thing? It is against the laws of commerce to wage open war." "To'ova, general of the Citadel, you know the name perhaps?" Dagdaruun asked. As the situation sank in, the goblin slumped down in his chair. He looked at Dagdaruun and said, "What are your terms? It would seem I am a merchant without a house." Dagdaruun smiled. Battlefield or bazaar, he thought, war is hell.
goblin_pride 01-15-07, 03:07 PM	"Barek'dan, which messengers are overdue?" Dar'gaal asked, already knowing the answer. "The groups from Droaam and Sharn, captain. They're almost a full week overdue now, we should consider them lost and get these dispatches back to safety." Barek'dan said, the old bugbear's discomfort showing through. "Perhaps," Dar'gaal said, "But I worry that they'll turn up as soon as we've left." "If they do, they know to wait," Barek'dan said, "as it is, these dispatches we do have are all overdue at the Citadel." "You're right, pack our things," Dar'gaal said, "we'll catch up to the raiders and turn what we have over to the courier from the Citadel. He should be quite happy to move on to a more comfortable place than a bugbear raiding camp." "Not to mention that the forty-three dispatches we do have are enough for the Ghaal'dar to call us spies and stretch our necks." Barek'dan added. "I would've thought this sneaking around would please you, old friend." Dar'gaal said, "you're in luck though, Madoc is going to set up a courier post here under the guise of a merchant house. I heard them talking about it the last time we handed off our burden." "Cut-throats, traders and bandits, some army we're turning out to be." Barek'dan said with a snort.
eehamburg 01-15-07, 03:46 PM	Have we got enough material yet? NO!
goblin_pride 01-15-07, 04:46 PM	"General Madoc, sir," the guard said, "there is some creature here to see you and quite a few irritated merchants that would also like a word." "What now?" Madoc said, looking up from his lunch. "A rider came to the Citadel a few moments ago," the Guard said. "Put the message on my desk, Assuming Hatuur can still see some trace of desk beneath the pile of other things he wants me to attend to." Madoc said. "Hatuur refused to let him into your office," the guard said, "something about the smell." "MADOC," Vaarsuva shouted, "where do your people learn their manners?" Madoc hung his head and then looked up at Vaarsuva. "You've heard about the messenger, I take it?" the commander said, looking cross. "Have you heard about the string of guards that he never bothered to stop and talk to? How about the dozens of merchants at the gate screaming for blood because he rode a wolf right down the lane, through the middle of the market? This had better be good or I'm going to toss you to that bloodthirsty mob." "Where is this messenger?" Madoc asked. "Oh, that's the best part," Vaarsuva said, "He's in the training court, bathing, because Hatuur refused to let him indoors." Madoc got up from the table and started towards the hall, turning back towards Vaarsuva, he said, "you coming?" "I wouldn't miss this for the world," Vaarsuva said. Halfway to the training court, Hatuur met them, saying, "Taalen is back, and I refused to let enter any room in this citadel without bathing first." "Taalen?" Madoc asked just before starting to run. Reaching the courtyard, he sprinted across the sandy floor towards the goblin dousing himself with water. "TELL ME YOU FOUND IT" he shouted before reaching him. "Morning General," Taalen said, " I suppose you've guessed by now that I found it." Madoc's eyes grew as wide a saucers. "It's their water supply, I told you that was the key." He said as he cut the matted and tangled braids from his scalp with a knife. "The spring that feeds them their water has another opening not even three hundred feet outside the walls. It took some searching and a bit of mining to widen it out, but it's big enough we can slip hundreds inside when the time comes." "You've secured it?" Madoc asked, "We can hold it open?" "Wide open, I had Dagdaruun buy the buildings around it, he sent me to bring back enough to fortify the holdings of his merchant house. The title deeds are in my pack, he thought you might like to have the deeds to the fortress of Rhukaan Draal." he said as he pointed to his pack.
goblin_pride 01-15-07, 06:48 PM	Gaarvan stood at the edge of the crevasse, looking down. "I don't suppose you know another way across, Old One?" he said, knowing the old god wouldn't answer. He pulled the grappple from his pack and prepared to throw it as he thought, this is madness, crossing the Seawall in the heart of winter to bear a standard of a god with no followers in a war unfought. Tossing the grapple, he felt it bite into the ice on the other side. He swung out over the gap, feet braced to catch himself before he slammed into the far wall. he felt the wall under his feet as the grapple surrendered it's hold on the treacherous ice. That's it, you've killed yourself, he thought as he tumbled through the air. He felt heat as he awoke. Lifting his head, he could smell a ram cooking, it's roast flesh a pleasing smell after the three days on the high ice. The chamber was worked stone, the firepit on the wall nearest him held the ram that reminded him of home. "Ah, you live, I was beginning to wonder if you would," a voice said to him, "That fall was more than any could've survived, but here you are." "Where am I?" Gaarvan asked, his voice softer than he remembered it. "Why you are home, child," the voice said, "Don't you remember it?" "No, I was walking the peaks, trying to get to the city of the Dhakaani," Gaarvan said, "the Old One told me to bear his standard for him in their war." "A powerful vision," the voice said, "but the children of Dhakaan are not at war, their kind has been scattered to the winds and you have no standard." "I saw him though," Gaarvan said, "the horned one, he told me that I must go, I have been chosen." "You must eat," the voice said, "One such as you will grow very weak without the nourishment that home provides." "Who are you?" Gaarvan asked. "I am." the voice said, "If you must put a name to me, I am home, I am family, I am clan, I am mercy from an enemy. You spoke of the Old One of War, I am the Old One of Kindness. I was the King Under the Mountain Once, father of the goblinoids in a sense, but that time has faded as I have. Eat now, your journey will wait for you." Gaarvan ate his fill and asked, "What is to come of me? My journey is not complete." "Sleep now, my brave child," the voice said, "When you awaken, you may resume your journey." Gaarvan awoke, the grapple laying in the snow beside him. His pack was next to it, warm and steaming, full of fresh ram's meat. He looked around and saw the statue, the horned face was familiar, the right hand extended from the wall of ice, standard flapping in the breeze. He looked at the cliffs of ice on either side and said, "Thank you, Old Ones."
goblin_pride 01-16-07, 01:03 AM	"What's that?" said Tuvaar, pointing to the west. "Those are the Twins," Daraak said, "The bulk of the Snowwalkers live in the valleys beyond them." "I wasn't talking about them," Tuvaar said, "I was talking about that." He handed the farseeing lenses to Daraak and pointed towards the base of the mountains. The dark mass moved slowly towards the village that the pair of generals were evacuating. As it got closer, Daraak said, "those are snowwalkers from the looks of it. Wildlings that live beyond the domains of the Dhakaani, deep in the mountains. Solitary creatures, most of them still worship the dead gods. That's why they moved into the far ranges, to be closer to their gods they said. Some trade in the moutain villages, but most of them never see another living being for months at a time." "Are they coming to raid?" Tuvaar asked, "Because we're a bit outnumbered here." "I've never seen a raid that large," Daraak said, "they're organized. That's an army. Let's get these people moving before we have to find out."
Lawdog 01-16-07, 06:58 PM	Dang Goblin_Pride, you are correct. I am impressed. I am finshing up my PC for Goblin_Pride's game, and am looking for tribe info and name examples. I saw the post on naming conventions, and intend to follow it, but don't want to copy Madoc or Taalen (or Yuni, for that matter, as you know my position on gender bending). Once I can get a little research in on those matters, I will post a character statement here. Although I assure you that it won't compete with Goblin_Pride or Lord_Alm.:D
goblin_pride 01-16-07, 07:50 PM	"The children of the Old Ones assemble, Gaarvan." The voice said, "It will be a mighty army to carry the Old Ones back to crush their children that have forgotten them." "No," Gaarvan said, "I am to carry the standard in the war for the Dhakaani. War said I am to show his pleasure on the Dhakaani cause." "You owe him nothing, the Old King under the mountain saved you from the deep ice," The voice said, "You owe a debt to the Old Ones. Take this army of followers and strike at the heart of the Dhakaani. Bring the Old Ones back to their kind. Kill all who would not yield." "NO," Garvan shouted, his face ripping as horns forced them selves through the skin on his scalp, his voice becoming the growling snarl of a beast of the abyss, "AWAY, FOUL BETRAYER, YOUR POISONS DROVE US FROM THE DHAKAANI IN THE BEGINNING, WE ARE HERE TO SHOW OUR LOVE TO OUR LOST CHILDREN." Gaarvan awoke screaming. Slowly he reached up to his face, feeling for the horns, relieved when he found nothing but skin. Shaking, he started to rise. "The Old Ones speak to you again, master?" A female voice asked. "Yes," Gaarvan said, "prepare the camp, we march." Gaarvan Warchild of the Snowwalkers stood in the flap of the great tent, looking out over the throng of shelters, "We are coming Dhakaan, our Old Ones have decreed it."
goblin_pride 01-16-07, 10:45 PM	"We should be safe tonight," Tuvaar said, "I've doubled the sentries and added towers to the fence. Do you think they'll attack?" "I'm not sure," Daraak said, "I've never seen the Snowwalkers horde like this. Something is motivating them, better we should hurry in the morning and get back to our walls. In the meantime, Tuvaar, have you met Jaalan, the governor of the village in the valley of Unity?" "No," Tuvaar said, the confusion obvious on his face, "Why?" "Because I am a Duur'kala and a Snowwalker, boy." Jaalan said, "And Daraak thought you should know what that horde behind us may mean." "My apologies, Duur'kala," Tuvaar said, bowing his head, "I meant no offense." "None taken, child," Jaalan said, "You couldn't have known. I was just telling your companion that the villages closest to the Twins won't need to be evacuated, the Snowwalkers have been absorbing them as their horde moves closer to us. You are free to return to Serenity with those you have." "We've barely assembled half the number from the upland villages," Daraak said, "Are we to return with so few and leave a possible enemy to gather the rest?" "You make your enemies, Daraak," Jaalan said, " This Warchild the wildlings rally around may not be one. It's difficult to see, they are different from you. I still revere the Old Ones, so I may be able to find out more in their camp than you." "You're going to join them?" Tuvaar asked. "I'm not going to join them, child, I am one of them." Jaalan said, "I walk the line between my loyalty to the empire and my loyalty to the Old Ones. If this Warchild truly speaks to the Old Ones, my loyalty to him may eclipse my loyalty to that empty seat." "What?" Tuvaar and Daraak asked in unison. "Calm yourselves," Jaalan said, "I am still a servant in the way of the Dhakaan, but I am also a servant of the Old Ones. The Old Ones may have a Warlord but I see no one sitting the throne of the Dhakaani. If their warlord is here to do ill to the children of the Dhakaan, I will send word to you." Jaalan rose and pulled his cloak over him. After walking to the flap on the general's tent, he turned back and said, "Remember, the Dhakaan unified six warlords and forged an empire, I have but one to reconcile to her way." And then walked out into the cold, still night.
goblin_pride 01-16-07, 11:48 PM	"Little Gobling, I am here to be making the deal." Ur'dar said, his goblin had not improved any. "So the price was acceptable," Tuurek said, his orcish perfect, "Your master approves of it?" "Indeed, little friend," Ur'dar said, "we are allies of the Dhakaani now. I am to take you to the coast, where the ships are being built to carry three hundred ogres, eight hundred Droaamite goblins and over a thousand orc warriors to Darguun." "So few?" Tuurek said, "I thought the number was going to be considerably higher." "No," Ur'dar said, "Our master sent word to Great Crag, the rest of our forces will be moved to the border with the manlings. When the Chief of Darguun is under attack, we will send raids deep into Breland to keep them from attacking you." "What?" Tuurek asked. "The manlings," Ur'dar said, "we will wage war on them as you wage war in Darguun and when your homeland is secured, you will come to help us conquer the manlings. It will be a glorious empire for you and the kingdoms of the orc will rise from manling graves." As he mounted up for the ride to the coast, Tuurek thought to himself, Hatuur will not be pleased.
goblin_pride 01-17-07, 12:30 AM	Dang Goblin_Pride, you are correct. I am impressed. You realize that I'll be expecting the same level of work on your part for your game, don't you?
Lawdog 01-17-07, 12:37 AM	You realize that I'll be expecting the same level of work on your part for your game, don't you? You realize that you are going to be disappointed, don't you?
goblin_pride 01-17-07, 12:39 AM	Once I can get a little research in on those matters, I will post a character statement here. No need to unless you just want to add to the overall feel of it. These posts I've been putting up are laying a really solid foundation for a campaign using the Dhakaani that anyone with access to the boards can take and use as they wish. I'm hoping that at least one person is looking at the posts and drawing inspiration from them if not swiping the whole run to use in their own game. Although, if they are, they're being terribly silent on the matter.
goblin_pride 01-17-07, 01:40 AM	Tahraan had been riding for the better part of a week. The time in the saddle was pleasing, but the contents of his backpack scared him. He would be glad to hand off this message to another courier and have a bit of spiced wine and roast rat. The Marghuul pass wasn't far now, the inn just the other side of Sterngate would be a welcome sight. He heard the hooves behind him and turned to look. "Bandits," he said, spurring on the wolf under him, "let's show them Darguun's hospitality, old girl." As the path narrowed he saw another pair of riders. "Smart bandits," he said. "We'll be taking whatever it is you've got in that bag there, goblin," the biggest and ugliest of the bandits said, "along with any coins you're carrying." "You can have whatever you want," Tahraan said, "Just don't hurt me." The riders moved closer, trying to block him from escape. He could see the horses were a bit skittish, so close to a vicious predator. "Alright, let's have it, and be quick about it." the bandit leader said. "You asked for it," Tahraan said, and the wolf tore into the flesh of the leader's horse and Tahraan's shortblade caught another in the flank. As the wolf broke from the encircling horses, Tahraan could hear them trying to get control of their mounts. "Idiots," he said. Further up the track he could hear the hoofbeats behind him. The Sterngate was just ahead, he looked behind him to see why they were so bold. The Brelish uniforms were unmistakable, but he didn't dare to stop. Soldiers in these parts are a bit bolder in molesting goblin messengers. "STOP THAT GOBLIN," he heard them shout, the bandit leader obviously a bit annoyed at his lack of a prize. "we'll be home in a few moments, old girl," Tahraan said, the hope of a hot meal and cold wine swiftly disappearing. The gatehouse was still open, a tunnel of enemy strength some three hundred yards long. If the alarm is raised, I'm stuck in Breland, thought Tahraan. He pushed the old wolf faster, he had to make this run at full speed. As he crossed the Breland bridge into the border crossing he could hear the shouting of the guards. Passing under the portcullis he heard the distinctive sound of arrows hitting the cobblestones around him. "Don't stop, don't give up, run," he said, as much to himself as the she-wolf under him. He felt the sting as an arrow caught him in the hip, "a lucky shot, humans aren't good enough to hit a Taarka'khesh on the run," he said. As he cleared the Darguun gate, he relaxed a bit. He passed close to a wagon as he crossed the bridge, the old she-wolf spooking the beasts and overturning the wagon. "Welcome home," he said, and started down the track towards the Marghuul camps, knowing that to stop at the inn would be dangerous. It was near dark when he finally made the camp. Captain Dar'gaal would need to see what he was carrying. When he finally came to a stop, he slumped over in the saddle. "Will he live?" Tahraan heard captain Dar'gaal say. "Don't go planning my funeral just yet, captain," Tahraan said, "I plan on running that gate many more times before I die." "That's good. When we found you pinned to your saddle by Brelish arrows, we were wondering." Dar'gaal said, "Now what are you carrying that was worth such a risk?" "The crown of the Ironlord of the Dhakaani." Tahraan said.
goblin_pride 01-17-07, 12:31 PM	Longshanks peered through the glasses. "How many do you count, Sergeant?" "I count fourteen manlings, six Ghaal'dar, and one Zil, I think." Sergeant Jataan said. "Possibly eighteen total combatants." "And the three wagons?" Longshanks asked. "Supplies," Jataan said, I had one of mine sneak in to check last night. "Take them now or wait until they camp, sergeant?" Longshanks asked. "They'll be too close to one of our settlements if we let them continue until nightfall, sir," Jataan said, "between you, me, Captain Arkhuul and sergeant Kethet, we have forty-five riders, we can quite easily overtake them on the trail with little difficulty." "Sound the charge, sergeant," Longshanks said, "No prisoners and I want any maps they have on them." Jataan put the curled Ram's horn to his lips and blew three long notes. Before the travellers knew what was happening, the Taarka'khesh were on them, snarling jaws and snapping teeth, the flash of steel in the sunlight and the jeering, howling fury of a pack driven wild by bloodlust. It was over in moments, nothing of the caravan still lived.
goblin_pride 01-17-07, 10:35 PM	"A name, that is all I ask," said Longshanks, reading the manling's journal. The caravan this afternoon yielded another map, identical to the others and a tattered journal. "Pardon, sir?" Jataan said. "Nothing," Longshanks said, "I was just talking to a dead manling. He has here entries about buying the map, but he doesn't seem to want to give me the name of the seller. How can I loose Madoc's hawks if I can't see the quarry?" "It's a puzzle, general," Jataan said, "The maps are an exact duplicate of our maps. One of ours must be the source of their information. Look here in the corner, this is one of our hidden caches, none but the Taarka'khesh know where that well and cavern are." "Incorrect assumption, sergeant," Longshanks said, "these same maps are widely distributed among the Daru'khesh and the officers of the army. I still wonder how one of our military maps ended up in the hands of these manlings, though." "That does increase the number the guilty party hides among, general," Jataan said. "That it does," Longshanks said, "In the morning, split the pack, you ride south, Kethet east, Arkhuul north, and I'll ride west to the citadel. These manlings are getting bold, I want to know where they're coming from." Longshanks paused for a moment and said, "Tell Arkhuul to recruit another sergeant, you are now captain, assemble your pack after you return to the Citadel. I'll speak to the officers at daybreak, captain Jataan."
goblin_pride 01-18-07, 04:21 PM	The scout, yet another Arkhuul, helped himself to the generals' wine. "the other camp is advancing at nearly twice your speed, I would recommend either force marching the day tomorrow or sneaking the non-combatants out tonight because they'll be on you by tomorrow's nightfall." "And Serenity?" Tuvaar asked. "Fully three days at our current speed," Arkhuul said, I sent word yesterday with one of my swiftest, if Longshanks is there, he'll ride out in the morning to intercept us and bolster our numbers." "Do you have enough scouts to slow their advance?" Daraak asked. "I could," Arkhuul said, "but it would be suicide. I've ordered my scouts to avoid contact with the enemy's scouts, but it would seem he doesn't bother with them." "How far to the Daanalor Pass?" Daraak asked. "We can push for the pass tomorrow but we'll have barely half the day to prepare a defense." Arkhuul said, "What did you have in mind?" "We'll reverse Kethet's defense," Daraak said, "Take the scouts and ride ahead, go tonight, build up the fortifications during the day tomorrow. When we arrive in the early afternoon we'll add to the works and post sentries while we assemble. Agreed, Tuvaar?" "Agreed," Tuvaar said, "Go Captain, you have your orders."
goblin_pride 01-18-07, 04:57 PM	"I'll meet you at the Daanalor," Longshanks said, "I'll split the packs when I get there and leave some to begin rebuilding the works so that you can post troops to the defense and be ready to fight when you get there." "Are you taking enough?" Madoc asked. "Thirty packs," Longshanks said, "close to a thousand individual scouts. I should be able to drop one or two hundred to mount the defensive works and still be able to harass the enemy if they get too close to Daraak and Tuvaar's host." "I'll force march in about two hours," Madoc said, "I'll be there sometime in the middle of the day tomorrow. Vaarsuva is assembling Daraak and Tuvaar's troops, I'm hoping their loyalty will make them march faster. The Stormguard marched three hours ago, they'll be arriving at the Daanalor by daybreak. If you can link up with our little lost sheep, do it, but plan the fight at the Daanalor." "You push them as hard as you can," Longshanks said, "I want to see you before nightfall, it's cold out there and I don't want to get left." "I'll be there," Madoc said, "Good luck."
goblin_pride 01-18-07, 05:34 PM	"We're not having this argument again, Commander," Madoc said, "You are the commander of this bastion and you will stay here and mount a defense because in the unlikely event that we can't stop them you will have to." "I am the more adept at commanding troops in a set-piece battle, Madoc," Vaarsuva said, "I should be the one marching out." "Respectfully, commander," Madoc said, "I will add another scar to that cheek if you insist on pushing this issue." "Generals," Hatuur said, "if you please, move this discussion out of sight of the troops massing for the march. Madoc is quite correct, Commander, your place is here. The bastion is your responsibility, the Council would object to you abandoning the inner defenses to go out and meet the enemy." "Bah," Vaarsuva said, "the Council would have the armies of the Citadel never move an inch to rebuild the empire" and stormed off, visibly irritated. "He's anxious to begin the fight," Madoc said, " do something to speed that decision, would you." "I am on schedule," Hatuur said, "You be careful, I need you and the others as well as that spoiled Dhakaan'tash. He doesn't see that it builds the confidence of the junior officers when he sends out a lesser general to fight. No offense intended, little brother." "None taken," Madoc said, "I'm not going to fight anyway, I'm just returning the others' troops to them. You know as well as I do that they'll start taking orders from Tuvaar and Daraak as soon as we link up with them and I'll be the skulking cut-throat again." "A role you are quite skilled at," Hatuur said, "But be careful anyway, I need you to crack the keep at Rhukaan Draal and who would I blame if things run afoul on me." "I am quite certain you could find another cut-throat," Madoc said, "and you're as adept as I. But I'll be cautious and return the flock to the little lost sheep."
goblin_pride 01-19-07, 07:02 PM	As he stood in the little alcove, a goblin stripped off the armor that had gotten him in this far. Little protection it had offered it's previous wearer, he thought. Stashing it behind a stautue of some long-dead general, he slipped from the alcove to the nearest pool of shadow. Barefoot and silent he moved towards his prey. A guard stepped from a side chamber a few feet ahead. As he turned towards the little goblin, he was struck down, steel-like fingers finding their way under his jaw to keep him silent as the blade drank deeply of his life's blood. He left the body where it lay and continued on. "How can you defend that wretch, Hatuur?" Vaarsuva said, "He's broken the first of the military law. We serve the empire, to use our skills and the troops granted us by the empire against it's citizens is a violation of the very oaths we swore to the throne. That may have been acceptable among the merchants, but he is military now, by order of the council." The goblin moved quickly. The darts from his right hand found the larger general quite easily, as he barreled down the hall past the crippled one. "posion?" was all the hobgoblin said as he slumped to the floor. The crippled one shouted "ASSASSIN IN THE CITADEL" as he ran for the pair of Peacekeepers at the door of his prey. He caught the first of the peacekeepers with an upwards strike, the blade slicing easily through chain, flesh and bone. As he pulled the blade free, the other drew his weapon. Turning, the little assassin blocked a strike that would easily have caught another unaware. With measured agility he paced out the blows of the guard, watching for the moment to strike. Blocking the savage fury of the guard, the little assassin easily saw the opening, his blade found the inside of the thigh of the guard and with a quick stab and violent twist, the guard fell. Stepping into the room, he sought out the fat one. A servant girl was all that he saw. "To'ova?" he asked, knowing that the girl would surrender her master instead of her life. She pointed quickly towards a door to the right. The assassin moved towards the door, opening it. Suddenly, the assassin felt the sting of a blade, it's end finding his heart. "Foolish assassin," the voice whispered in his ear, the servant girl, "I am Yuni of the Daru'khesh, you should have known better than to turn your back on a female in a military citadel." As she jerked the blade, the assassin went limp, his spine severed and both lungs cut cleanly.
goblin_pride 01-19-07, 07:56 PM	The sight of the extra guards worried the governor. He had been awakened with dire news from the citadel. He moved quickly down the halls of the general's quarter towards the main audeince chamber. As he entered, the commander of the bastion was surprisingly absent. "Hatuur?" said the governor, "where are the generals?" "Vaarsuva was poisoned by the assassin," Hatuur said, "the healers say it is unlikely he'll see the dawn. Tuvaar and Daraak were overseeing the evacuation of the high villages, they're retreating to Daanalor with a snowwalker host in pursuit. Madoc and Longshanks are moving towards Daanalor to confront the host of snowwalkers. As senior captain of the citadel, I am the closest to a general that we can muster, unless you want to speak with the merchant." "That's quite alright," The governor said, "Do you know who sent the assassin?" "Considering that he was less than forthcoming when he was alive," Hatuur said, "I can only guess. I have spoken with the master of the Sharaat'khesh, he was not one of theirs. His target was obviously To'ova, trying to silence the merchant general before he could speak in the courts, I would imagine." "You suspect a greater plot?" the governor asked. "Always," Hatuur said, "but I will know more when the identity of our little playmate this evening is proven." The governor looked at the clerk for a moment, deep in thought, and said, "Until the other generals return, you have the command of this bastion. I appoint you as general until then. Do what you must to find out the extent of this plot." "I will need the commander of the peacekeepers for this investigation," Hatuur said. "I will send word to him that it is time the commander of the peacekeepers resume his military rank and return to the Citadel." the governor said. "Assemble a martial court and try To'ova as a general, find out what he knows and punish him for his misdeeds. I want this matter closed quickly and the council can be damned for it's sheer stupidity in trusting that a merchant would have the same discipline as a captain of the army." "As you wish, Governor,"Hatuur said, "I will find the root of this misdeed and eliminate it's corruption."
goblin_pride 01-19-07, 08:58 PM	Anybody see that one coming?
goblin_pride 01-22-07, 04:05 PM	"My fellow Dhakaani," Hatuur said as he hobbled his way down the central stairway, "Please take your seats, we have much to discuss this day." The Citadel's large audience chamber was filled with all manner of goblinoid, the leaders of all the clans of war in the remaining Dhakaani empire. "My friends," Hatuur began, "We come here today under the order of the Governor of this bastion to decide the fate of that wretch kneeling in chains before the Great Dhakaan of War." Gesturing to the statue, he continued, "here under the watchful eyes of the Great Dhakaan, we are to decide the fate of a merchant playing at war. Do you know, wretched merchant, why she has the fife and the sword cradled in her lap?" "No," the merchant said, a whisper, barely able to lift his head. "The great Dhakaan of the warrior clans holds the fife to show that those who serve will be remembered in the songs of her people," Hatuur said, "and the sword is for the swift death that comes for those that do not serve her will and the empire." Hatuur turned to face the goblinoid audience of the war clan chieftains and advocates. "Do you know, miserable merchant," Hatuur said, facing the crowd, "what the penalty is for betraying the Dhakaani?" "Death," To'ova whispered, his body wanting to collapse under the weight of the word. "Honorable brothers of the Dhakaani clans of war," Hatuur said, "I was appointed three days ago to find the source of the unrest among the merchant clans. In my search, I have found that this wretch sold maps of our villages to an agent of the Ghaal'dar. I do not know what price he asked to deliver the Dhakaani to them in chains, but I know what the Law says he will pay for this act." Hatuur spun on his heel as the longblade slipped from it's sheath. As he spun to again face the audience, he flicked the blade to shake the blood from it and To'ova's head rolled across the floor, coming to rest at the foot of the Dhakaan. "This matter is closed, the Council's master of spies, the general among merchants has lost his war." Hatuur paused for a moment, turned to the gathered crowd and said, "Bugbear brothers of the Paluur'uru, Miin'kara, Kalkor and Marghuul, are your clans prepared to make war on this wretched slime's allies?" "AYE," came the reply from the assembled leaders of the bugbear. Hatuur scanned the crowd and said, "Goblin brothers of the Elo'khesh, Daru'khesh, Taarka'khesh, Jataan'saak, Ghala'ari, Tuvaar'aash, Arkhuul'aan and Kethet'ren, are you prepared for war?" "AYE," came the shouts of the goblins. "Brother hobgoblins of the Dhakaan'tash, Jalaan'tiiri and Kech Volaar, are you prepared for war?" Hatuur asked, his clenched first held out in front of him. "AYE," the voices echoed back to him. "I, a mere clerk, have been elevated to the position of the Master of the Citadel by the governor of this bastion." Hatuur said, turning to open the small chest at the foot of the Dhakaan of War. "So when Vaarsuva, the Master of the Armies of the Citadel, recovers from the poison the merchant's assassin afflicted him with, he will don this, the Crown of the Ironlord of the Dhakaani. Go and raise the armies of the Citadel, we are at war and the Ghaal'dar await our arrival."
goblin_pride 01-22-07, 05:21 PM	"How long have I been out?" Vaarsuva asked, trying to sit up. "Ah, you are awake, I was beginning to wonder if you would ever rise," a small goblin said, turning back towards the bed. "I am Jaamun, a physician and herbalist. Hatuur asked me to look after you. The poison you were given is a rare one, it comes from a plant in the Yarkuun valley. This plant excretes a sap that causes animals eating it to collapse, unable to move, eat and often breathe. You are a very lucky one indeed, my lord." "How long until I can return to my duties, Physician?" Vaarsuva asked. "Your only duty, for the moment is to relax, rest and heal, sire. The poison was enough to kill most tribex, it's a miracle you are still among us. The wound went septic the day after it was inflicted, and I was forced to open it to leech out the toxins. Your blood was thinned by the poison so the danger was great. You may notice that it bleeds a bit while the poison's lingering effects are with you, I would imagine that in a few weeks you may be completely back to normal. The wound on your cheek may seep a bit as well, it was a bloody mess when you were first brought here, the sutures were already starting to ooze, sire." "Why do you keep calling me sire," Vaarsuva said, "are you not Dhakaani?" "No, sire," Jaamun said, "I am Dhakaani, but you are the first warlord of the Dhakaani to be crowned in two millenia, sire. I was unsure the proper way to speak to one elevated so high in the rule of the empire, so I speak to you as though you are a king. Am I wrong to do so, sire?" "Warlord?" Vaarsuva asked, "Apparently I died and this is all a dream." "No, sire," Jaamun said, "You are the to be the first warlord of the reborn empire. Hatuur has a list of people wishing an audience with you, but I thought it better to wait until you've gotten a bit of your strength back. I did however agree to let your friends in to speak with you."
goblin_pride 01-22-07, 05:57 PM	"You should have been there, Yuni," Madoc said, "I was moving the infantry column up to the Daanalor fortifications and one of the sergeants told me they were empty." Madoc was hanging his armor back on the stand by the door and he continued, "it was then that we noticed the sound." "Music," Madoc said, "of all the things I expected to find at Daanalor, music was not one of them. We found the wolves of the Taarka'khesh, and the supplies and wagons from Tuvaar and Daraak's columns, but the troops seemed to be missing." "Where were they?" Yuni asked. "I'm getting to that," Madoc said, "if you would let me finish the story. We looked out over the valley below the fort and saw the fires in the valley of the gods. You know the one I'm talking about, the valley that Kethet the Younger let the Snowwalkers erect stautues of their gods in." "Yes," I've been there," Yuni said, "please continue." "I ordered one of Tuvaar's sergeants to post sentries and be prepared for attack," Madoc said, "and took the handful of mine that marched with us to go have a look." "So what did you find?" Yuni asked. "We snuck into the camp easily enough," Madoc said, "the snowwalkers didn't post sentries. As we got closer to the biggest of the bonfires, I could hear Daraak singing one of those tavern songs of which he's so fond." "You're kidding," Yuni said, "he was drinking in the enemy camp?" "No," Madoc said, "He was drinking in the allies' camp. It seems the Snowwalkers they were running from were coming to join us on their own. Daraak looked at me, and said, 'Look, reinforcements, Tuvaar,' and smacked the passed-out Tuvaar on the leg. 'I hope you last longer than these two, pipsqueek,' was all he said, so I did." "Aye, he made it all the way to dawn," Daraak said, standing in the doorway, "and I hope his head felt like mine did the next morning." "Jaalan and Gaarvan settled in are they?" Madoc asked. "Yes," Daraak grumbled, "but that pint-sized little physician still won't let me in to see Vaarsuva." "He's just afraid you'll sneak him in some wine," Madoc said, "We'll go have a talk with him later."
goblin_pride 01-23-07, 10:49 PM	Jolun looked worried. He stood in the hall waiting until Hatuur arrived. At the first sight of the little clerk, he said, "I have bad news from the Council." "I doubt it," Hatuur said, "they haven't the spine or the skills to contradict my plans." Jolun looked shocked and asked, "So being appointed Governor was part of your plan, was it?" "What?" Hatuur asked, aghast. "You've been appointed Governor of this bastion," Jolun said, "in light of the recent Governor's inability to curtail the manipulations of the greedier elements in the merchant clans. And if that wasn't enough, the farmers, handlers and Millers clans are calling for you to do something about the merchant clans' stranglehold on the markets." "Dhakaan preserve me," Hatuur said, "What halfwit put this motion forward?" "The previous Governor suggested it to the Council," Jolun said, "and they ratified it unanimously." "Even you?" Hatuur asked. "I had no choice," Jolun said, "if I had been the sole dissenter it would've appeared as there was some breach in the unity of our camp. So how do we reverse this without openly defying the Council or appearing as weak as your predecessor?" "We don't," Hatuur said, "I'll appear before the council in the morning to call for the return of the governorship to a military position." "As you wish," Jolun said, "but as you already carry a military rank, the governorship has been merged with the army." Turning to leave, Jolun said, "I look forward to seeing you dance before the Council tomorrow, Governor-general."
goblin_pride 01-23-07, 11:19 PM	"I should have you killed for this cut, Madoc." Vaarsuva growled, pressing a cloth to his cheek, trying to stop the blood that seemed to be pouring from the wound. "I'm not sure if anyone has pointed out to you yet, Warlord," Madoc said, "but you can order me to kill me now." Daraak burst out laughing and said, "Still the same, you two. I'll be happy to see what happens when you have a common enemy." Tuvaar stopped eating long enough to say, "I don't know of many more common than Madoc," and the general's mess erupted in laughter. "Still, he's right though, Vaarsuva, you finally have the authority to order all of us to our own graves now. I suppose that means we'll be marching soon." "As soon as I can quit bleeding like a stuck pig," Vaarsuva said, "and that damned physician tells me I don't have to worry about dying from a skinned knee." Longshanks turned towards Madoc and said, "Don't get any ideas, I'd cut you down before you could get that blade drawn, you old rat." Daraak, Tuvaar and Longshanks began laughing again. "So you want more of the same scouting, Warlord?" "Yes," Vaarsuva said, "your's and Madoc's. I want to know exactly what's happening in the enemy's camp before he does." Jaalan appeared in the doorway, Gaarvan walking with him. "Good morning generals and warlord. May I introduce Gaarvan, standard-bearer of the Old god of War, Warlord?" "Yes," said Vaarsuva rising from his seat, "our newest ally from the snowwalkers, I am pleased to meet you." Dropping the cloth from his cheek to push himself up from his chair, Vaarsuva turned towards Gaarvan just seconds before the Snowwalker dropped to his knees. "Apologies for my lack of speed arriving master," Gaarvan said, his face never turning away from the floor, "I rallied an army for you as I travelled here." The generals looked at each other quizzically, but it was Madoc that spoke, "I think things just got more interesting."
goblin_pride 01-24-07, 09:34 PM	"Why didn't you tell any of us about this?" Vaarsuva asked. "I was afraid it would look bad for the rest of you to show any signs of knowledge of the plans." Hatuur sat facing the collection of generals, the worry beginning to show on his face. After a brief pause he continued, "the orc and ogres I sent Tuurek to negotiate with were meant to be mercenary reinforcements after the battle with the Ghaal'dar. I never expected them to launch an army to help wage our war, much less for them to plan an attack on Breland." "We cannot take Breland, my lord," Daraak said, "not without a significant increase in our troop strength. As it stands, we'll be hard-pressed to decapitate the Ghaal'dar." "Madoc?" Vaarsuva said. "Impossible," Madoc said, "Tuvaar's host will have to take the Sterngate. I'm looking at the possibility of as high as fifty percent casualties in taking the fortress at Rhukaan Draal. Without time to scout the defenses of the Brelish border, I couldn't begin to plan an assualt." "Longshanks?" Vaarsuva said. "Not good," Longshanks said, "I passed word this morning to get eyes on the Droaamite forces arrayed on the Brelish border, but it'll take easily two to three weeks to get word back. My scouts in Breland are few and far between, the likelihood of being able to help with a border siege from that side are slim. Breland is a country still ready for war, they could probably throw off an invasion from the Droaamites easily enough. The question still stands though, do you want to wage a war with the manlings before we've consolidated?" "Not really," Vaarsuva said, "but our dear clerk here has left us few options. How do you stand, Tuvaar?" "A week to take the Rhukaan Draal," Tuvaar said, "another to dismantle the engines, two weeks to move them to Sterngate. My best guess would be a month, perhaps twenty-four days before I could begin an assault. And that's all assuming I have the troop strength after defending a siege from the Deneith reinforcements." "May I speak, my lords?" Jaalan asked. "By all means, Duur'kala," Vaarsuva said. "Daraak has a bloodline claim to the Stormlord," Jaalan said, "you could name him Warlord. If the Lhesh Haruuc of the Rhukaan'tash was asked to ally himself to the Lhesh Vaarsuva of the Dhakaan'tash and the Lhesh Daraak of the Marghuul, part of your problems would vanish for the moment. There's still the unresolved issue of the Throne, but with three warlords, you could face down the Droaamites and then rush to offer Breland help in their defense of their kingdom. With Dhakaani troops interspersed among the Ghaal'dar we may be able to win converts back to the way of the Dhakaan. It would strengthen the armies of Darguun and might cause the Brelish manlings to ease up the guards of their border with us." "That still leaves us the Ghaal'dar problem," Vaarsuva said. "The Ghaal'dar are not a problem," Jaalan said, "our clans outnumber theirs by almost double and we'll make certain that the goblins and bugbears of their territory are included in the grand council of Darguun. We'll suppress their voice in the Grand Council and if need be we can resolve this by civil war, it is allowed under imperial law."
goblin_pride 01-25-07, 06:17 PM	"My thanks for coming to see me off, Warlord," Jaalan said, the smile never leaving his broad, fanged face, his voice calm, smooth and measured. "Worry not though, I'll be back within a week and I'll bring envoys from Volaar Draal and Rhukaan Draal." "I do not like this plan," Vaarsuva said, "But a Duur'kala gave us the empire, a duur'kala may be the one to reforge it." "Nonsense," Jaalan said, "I am but a singer of songs and a master of diplomacy, my lord." Leaning down from the saddle he said in a low voice, "Continue the preparations for war. We may be offering alliance, but I would have them see what being our enemy would cost them, my Ironlord of the Dhakaani. They will have our hospitality, but I would have them understand that it is only that hospitality that keeps them on this side of the grave." Sitting upright in the saddle of the larger than average wolf the Captain of the Taarka'khesh offered him to ride, Jaalan said loudly, "Such concern is touching, my lord, but the general Madoc and the Daru'khesh have given me an escort of thirteen of their bravest warriors and Longshanks of the Taarka'khesh sends his fastest and fiercest warriors to speed our journey. I fear the Dhakaan was not protected as well when she went to entreat with the warlords of the founding." Hatuur approached the pair and said, "Preparations are under way, Duur'kala, the crown will be in it's proper place when you return with the envoys. I have given orders to prepare the chambers in the heights of the Bastion for the honored guests you bring." "Good," Jaalan said, "If we're lucky, the Empress will smile on us in this." Jaalan nodded to the the Ironlord as he and his host began the long overnight ride towards Volaar Draal. Vaarsuva turned towards Hatuur after th Duur'kala's host left and said, "What crown is this he mentioned?" "The crown of the Lhesh Dhakaan, my lord," Hatuur said, head still bowed. "What?" Vaarsuva said. "The Imperial crown, my lord," Hatuur sad, "it was smuggled from Cazhaak Draal by the Daru'khesh under imperial mandate before the siege of that city that killed the final emperor. We have been the caretakers of the Imperial regalia for six millenia, my lord, the crown of the Lhesh Dhakaan has rested at Serenity since it was borne from Cazhaak Draal by a single goblin so many years ago. Did you never wonder why we guarded the secret of this place so jealously?"
goblin_pride 01-27-07, 06:57 PM	"What is it, Master Longshanks?" Jaalan asked. "An old friend," Longshanks answered, "I think. It looks like Mahataan's banner." "Friend or foe?" the duur'kala asked. "Taarka'khesh," Lonshanks said, "one of the pack leaders that sided with the Blade-bearer. Hopefully he's not spoiling for a fight." "And if he is?" Jaalan asked. "Then I kill him and your negotiations with his master start off a bit strained." Longshanks answered. "With any luck, he can see he's outnumbered and won't try to pick a fight." A lone rider approached with banner held high and said, "You are entering territory contested by the Master of the Kech Sharaat, turn back if you wish no part in this legal fight." "I am the Duur'kala Jaalan the Snowwalker, I have no qualms with your leaders or those of the Kech Volaar, I bear messages for each. Who leads this host?" "Apologies, Duur'kala," the rider said, "I am Arkhuul the loud, my leader is the general Mahataan of the Taarka'khesh. Of course you and your escort are welcome to our fires this night if you wish. I will lead you to our general now if you would care to follow."
goblin_pride 01-28-07, 11:15 PM	Tuurek looked out over the bay one more time. This would be the last sunrise he would see in Droaam. By this time next week he would be sailing into Wyvernspur at the head of an army of Droaamites. "My Little gobling friend, why be making you long face?" Ur'Daxa asked, the concern painted on his orcish brow. "You be home soon, with Droaamite army behind you. Ships built, crews ready, we sail on the tide this afternoon." "Your goblin is getting better," Tuurek said, lying, "I will miss the sunset here, along the coast the sun shines so much brighter than at home. The water shows it's light differently, I suppose." "Your warlord maybe letting you live in Droaam when we are done this bloody business my friend," Ur'Daxa said, "I would happy be, you live in my Kingdom. I give you big farm, make you lord here." Tuurek thought about the letter that had come from home that morning. It's message was painfully clear but the wording was intentionally vague. "Continue on and report immediately when you reach Darguun." These mercenaries are to be sacrificed, but to what end. "When we reach Darguun, I will ride ahead to speak to my warlord," Tuurek said, "You and the army will camp and await my return." "Want you company for the riding?" Ur'Daxa asked, "go to the city of your warlord, I would like." "When this business is settled," Tuurek said, "I will show you all the wonders of Darguun and the Dhakaani empire, but when we arrive your army will need you to stay with it." "A wise one are you," Ur'Daxa said, "I see why your warlord made such a little one a chieftain." "Captain," Tuurek said, and general of an army of sacrificial lambs, he thought.
goblin_pride 01-29-07, 12:04 AM	"Who else knows?" Vaarsuva asked. "A small number, sire," Hatuur said, "Myself, General Madoc, the Inner thirteen, the Duur'kala of our order and the generals in this room now sire." "No Guards?" Daraak asked, "For something as important as the Imperial crown, I would expect a legion of guards." "One hundred and sixty-nine, exactly." Madoc said, "Their silence guaranteed after they swear their oath by the removal of their tongues by their own hand. The Mute they're called, skulking monks to all outward appearance, lethal fighters and fanatically loyal to the crown and their oath." "Their own tongues?" Tuvaar asked. "Yes," Madoc said, "it is a great honor to serve among the mute, standing silent vigil over the palaces and regalia. None but the most devoted to the Dhakaan will suffice. The final oath is followed by the removal of the tongue so that it is the last words uttered by them." "This secret was the cause for Jaalan to wander the high peaks," Hatuur said, "He has been the High Duur'kala of our order for almost two decades. He sought insight among the Old Gods of the Dhakaani when the secret was made known to him by the master of the inner circle." "Wait a moment," Vaarsuva said, "if you're not the master of the inner circle, who is?" "I cannot say," Hatuur said, bowing his head. "You should not have been asked," Madoc said, relaxing the grip on his shortblade. "You are dismissed, go and see to the affairs as Jaalan instructed."
goblin_pride 01-29-07, 09:19 PM	"Are you sure you're ready to brave the crossing again?" Madoc asked. "Why general," Tahraan said, "you seem almost concerned." Mounting his old she-wolf he looked down at Madoc. "I'll be fine, the wound is mostly healed up and I'm wearing my arrow-proof britches." "Don't flatter yourself," Madoc said, "You know as well as I do that the letters you carry could start a war if they fell into the wrong hands." "I know," Tahraan said, "why do you think I never bother to cross the border like some fool tourist? I don't trust that these travelling papers you lot buy from the Zil won't betray me." "So to avoid undue attention," Madoc said, "you storm across the border like a mad raider?" "It's worked so far," Tahraan said, "besides, the manlings don't think of a lone goblin as a threat. At best they think I'm some crazed fool." "I'm beginning to agree," Madoc said, "but there's a letter in the pouch for the manling king. If you want, you can stop at the border and ask the manlings to escort you to Wroat." "Madoc, I'm surprised at you," Tahraan said, "What fun would that be? I'd rather they chase me all the way to Wroat." As he watched the courier ride out like a goblin with a barghest on it's tail, Madoc said, "And they say I'm mad?"
goblin_pride 01-29-07, 10:05 PM	"Jatuun, old friend," Dagdaruun said, maintaining the facade, "may I have a word with you?" "Certainly," Jatuun said, ushering the hobgoblin indoors. "Pack your things, we are going," Dagdaruun said, "we have to be across the border in less than three days." "What are you talking about, Captain?" Jatuun asked. "Our operations here are established," Dagdaruun said, "we are to move to Sharn in Breland and establish a trade presence there. The orders came to me this morning." "Has Hatuur lost his mind?" Jatuun said, "It takes months to create the network of spies and informers we need." "Hatuur is no longer in command," Dagdaruun said, "These orders came from Madoc. We are to take whatever coin we can from the operations here and travel through the Sterngate before the messenger from Serenity reaches it. We cannot attempt to cross under scrutiny, if they examine our papers too closely the deception will be seen. Once in Sharn, we are to link up with Ghaash Durkaat and begin shipping relics home among other trade goods." "Hatuur is dead?" Jatuun asked. "No," Dagdaruun said, "promoted to governor. How much coin do you have here?" "A little over three hundred in gold," Jatuun said, "how much from the ironmongery?" "Several thousand," Dagdaruun said, "it should be enough to start transhipping the relics stolen from the manlings and a sizable number of trade goods. Leave this place, I'll send Gaavar to run it while you're with me in Sharn. He's a tad simple but running an inn shouldn't be terribly difficult for him." "What about ships?" Jatuun said, "I don't think the manling ships will be terribly happy hauling goblinoid cargoes." "Already setting sail from Wyvernspur," Dagdaruun said, "they were given orders at the same time I was. The captains of the ships will be in Sharn before we are. Their ships will be flying the banners of the three-finger trade house. We are to establish a market for goods from Darguun there and ship goods from Breland here."
goblin_pride 01-29-07, 10:15 PM	I was asked by two of my players to stop adding to this thread. Apparently they've got more than enough of a feel for the empire, and they don't want to spoil the game as it stands. What do you think, should I listen to them or keep churning out adventure hooks in the fluff texts?
Rathis Darkwielder 01-30-07, 02:32 AM	Well I've been really enjoying your fluff, so I'd rather see more text churned out. At the same time, I'm not in your game so I suppose your players should have more to say about this than I. As a compromise they could stop reading the thread while you keep writing ;)
Zorloff 01-30-07, 10:56 AM	Well I've been really enjoying your fluff, so I'd rather see more text churned out. At the same time, I'm not in your game so I suppose your players should have more to say about this than I. As a compromise they could stop reading the thread while you keep writing Agreed. Keep churning out the fluff and hopefully they can stop reading the thread.
Lawdog 01-30-07, 08:15 PM	I was asked by two of my players to stop adding to this thread. Apparently they've got more than enough of a feel for the empire, and they don't want to spoil the game as it stands. What do you think, should I listen to them or keep churning out adventure hooks in the fluff texts? Agreed. Keep churning out the fluff and hopefully they can stop reading the thread. Knowing your group, I truly doubt that they (ie. WE) possess that sort of willpower. :D
goblin_pride 01-30-07, 09:14 PM	Knowing your group, I truly doubt that they (ie. WE) possess that sort of willpower. :D Actually, with certain members that are able to seperate player vs character knowledge, that's not a problem. It's no as though Lordalm or you haven't read a good chunk of the official material and I have been trying to keep the fluff pieces seperated from the areas the players are involved in. Although I wasn't expecting Lordalm to clamp down quite so hard on the idea of searching for the forgotten warforged.
goblin_pride 01-30-07, 10:44 PM	Madoc winced as he settled into the bath. The dripping sound from the water condensing on the cold ceiling of the cavern was broken only by the long exhale as the heat of the water penetrated his sore muscles. The footfalls behind him prompted him to speak. "What is it?" he said, without opening his eyes, his head resting gently on the stone around the steaming pool. "May I join you, general?" It was Yuni. "There are no generals in the bath, child," Madoc said, "call me Madoc or uncle if you wish." The conversation to come was not one Madoc relished. She could've at least waited until after my bath, he thought. "Uncle," Yuni started, " I was wondering if you had given any thought to my next posting. I would like a place in the front if at all possible." Madoc inhaled deeply and said, "I had thought a posting to the infiltrators on the assualt, but another posting has become availible that would suit you better, child." "The assault would be perfect," Yuni said. Madoc sighed and said, "you take after your mother, child, always snatching the first bauble you see rather than waiting to see what else there is." "Ghaash Durkaat in Sharn forwarded a letter to me from a black wanderer," Madoc said, "it laid out rather a decent plan. It seems our wayward guardian thought that perhaps a detachment of infiltrators in Sharn could build an army from the local goblins. It's a difficult assignment, but the reward may be worth the risk." Yuni looked puzzled. "Why not appoint the wanderer to the task?" "There would be the problem," Madoc said, "he was carving his way up the chain of command in the criminal elements of the city goblins and leaving a fairly large trail of corpses when suddenly he vanished. No one has seen or heard from him in weeks and the bodies have stopped appearing. I had thought that perhaps he might raise an army to take Sharn but it would seem that we are going to have to act for that to happen." "You want to send me to Sharn?" Yuni said, "Away from the fight?" "No, I want you to go to Dura'sharaat as my general there," Madoc said, "and build me the army your brother Trollbait suggested." "Trollbait?" Yuni asked, "He's alive?" "He was three weeks ago," Madoc said, "I've already sent captain Dagdaruun to Sharn to establish a trading presence and three of the ship captains from Wyvernspur. As the general in command of Dura'sharaat, you'll be responsible for protecting and maintaining our assets there. I would imagine as general, you could issue orders for training exercises geared at locating that wayward black wanderer of ours as well." "When do I leave?" Yuni asked. "In the morning," Madoc said, "Vaarsuva and Daraak both approved your generalship, Hatuur agreed as governor, the papers are drawn up for your travel in Breland and Longshanks has arranged three longriders as escort for you, General Yuni. Bring the Empire victory, child."
goblin_pride 01-31-07, 11:23 AM	"You sent her where?" Hatuur asked. "To Sharn, brother," Madoc said, "I sent her looking for her brother." "Your son, you mean," Hatuur said, his skin reddening around the ears like it always did when he was really furious. "I have no son, brother," Madoc said, "just as you have no daughter, our oaths to Black order forbid it. I promoted our brother's daughter to general and assigned her to a place where she could find the brother that abandoned her in favor of his oaths to the empress." "Sharn?" Hatuur said, "you sent her deep into Breland, a territory we'll most likely be at war with inside a year?" "She doesn't even know you're her father," Madoc said, "she was an infant when we swore to forsake our families for the empire. She's looking for that idiot son of mine that swore himself to carrying the word of the empress into the wildlands far beyond our borders. She's the most capable of performing the duty until she finds him and then he can take over and she'll return home." And you can count on being buried before I put that assassin back at your side, Madoc thought. "Oh, perhaps it is for the best then," Hatuur said. "It is," Madoc said, smiling.
goblin_pride 02-01-07, 11:15 AM	Yeah, it looks like not posting is going to be about as likely as me growing a set of wings and flying south for the winter.
eehamburg 02-01-07, 12:27 PM	Yeah, it looks like not posting is going to be about as likely as me growing a set of wings and flying south for the winter. Can I quote you on that?
goblin_pride 02-02-07, 09:48 PM	"Alright, that's it," Tahraan said, "You've been shadowing me for the last hour, show yourself." He turned the old she-wolf around to face the undergrowth he was certain his observer was hiding in. The bush parted as a small dark-skinned goblin stepped from behind it, his bowstring drawn taut. Tahraan wheeled the old she-wolf a quarter turn, readying himself to bolt if the other loosed his arrow. "That's a fine blade there," Tahraan said, noticing the dhakaani shortblade at the whelp's belt, "Who'd you steal it from?" The whelp's arrow missed Tahraan's ear by a fraction of an inch and the old Taarka'khesh was on him before he could draw the blade at his belt. They tumbled headlong into the brush as the she-wolf watched. Tahraan's shortblade was in his hand as he pinned the younger goblin beneath him. "Yield or die, thief," he said. "I am no thief," the little goblin said in Dhakaani, "I am Tarkhan of the Yaarkun'elo and if you press that blade of yours, we both die." Tahraan felt the cold of the little goblin's steel on the inside of his thigh as realization hit him. "You're Dhakaani?" he asked, the words of the old tongue feeling strange spoken so far into Breland.
goblin_pride 02-04-07, 12:29 AM	The sweat trickled down Tahraan's brow. His muscles were beginning to cramp. A half-hour at least they had been locked in this stalemate and neither was about to yield. It was the sound of hoofbeats that finally turned the tide. "Friends of yours?" Tarkhan asked. "Not so much, no," Tahraan said, "yours?" "Look boys," one of the manlings said, "lovers." "Six manlings, six horses," Tahraan said, "too many for one of us to take." "It would seem honor must wait for her due this day, eh?" Tarkhan said, "We call it a truce for now." The pair of goblins broke and rolled into a fighting stance opposite the manlings. Tarkhan threw his shortblade and caught a manling squarely in the chest, the sound of his laughter turning into a liquid gurgling as he slipped from his saddle to the waiting earth. Tahraan rolled under the manling leader's horse and opened it's belly with his blade, the other manlings fought to control their beasts as one of their number spilled it's innards. Tarkhan grabbed his bow and quickly put an arrow into one of the manling's throat as Tahraan threw his shortblade into another. Jerking the longblade free of it's scabbard on his back, Tahraan cut the legs from under yet another horse as Tarkhan shot an arrow into it's rider. "Mercy?" said the leader of the manlings a split-second before Tahraan gave him his wish with a broad stroke of the longblade. Tarkhan turned towards the manling trying to flee and put two arrows into his back as he tried to run, slumping him over in his saddle. "A horse with a dead rider escapes," Tarkhan said, pulling his shortblade from one of the dead, "we should be leaving this place now." "Agreed," Tahraan said, whistling for the old she-wolf. "But to where, that road leads directly to Sharn." "My village lies not far from here," Tarkhan said, "we can go there. Do not worry, you are under my hospitality until our matter of honor is settled, no harm will come to you there."
goblin_pride 02-04-07, 11:40 AM	Daraak sat on the steps of the bathing pool as Zalmua tightened the braids in his hair, her hands well-practiced. Lost in the sensation, his muscles relaxed. "More heat," he said, sending servants scurrying to stoke the fires beneath the pool. "You'll cook us before we meet the Ghaal'dar at this rate, sire," Tuvaar said, from his the other side of the pool. "Musician, sing us The Rains of Rhukaan Draal again." "Look Zalmua," Daraak said, "the general seeks to revel in the glories of his ancestors. I'm wondering if our little cut-throat shares your desire to sack the enemy's camp." "I wouldn't doubt it," Vaarsuva said, from his bench a few feet from the pool, "he seems to take far too much pleasure in killing, it's almost as though he has to prove he's the most capable of his infiltrators." "I had thought old Suuwo's massage had put you to sleep, old friend," Daraak said, "he must be losing his touch." "Have you given any thought to my sons, Daraak," Zalmua asked, "they would consider it a great honor to serve under your banner." "Much as would value the service of such fine Paluur'uru," Daraak said, "I cannot take them. I am a warlord now and it would be inappropriate." "You've sons that wish to serve the armies of the citadel?" Vaarsuva asked, "even after it has taken their father?" "I believe that was the reason they wished to join the armies of the citadel," Zalmua said, "to follow in the footsteps of their father." "Daraak is quite right," Tuvaar said, "he cannot take them. They're far too inexperienced to command any of a warlord's troops. If they are capable, I would be honored to take your sons under my banner." "There is the other matter as well," Vaarsuva said. "Yes," Daraak said, "They will earn great honor serving under Tuvaar." "What other matter?" Zalmua said. "Daraak does not wish to upset you by explaining," Tuvaar said, "So it seems it falls to the engineers again. Your sons would dishonor themselves and Daraak if they served under his banner before earning distinction. If they are capable, they will earn rank under my banner. Once they have earned their place among the officers of the citadel, then there will be no mark on their honor in them transferring to an equal place under their father's banner."
lordalm 02-04-07, 06:02 PM	Actually, with certain members that are able to seperate player vs character knowledge, that's not a problem. It's no as though Lordalm or you haven't read a good chunk of the official material and I have been trying to keep the fluff pieces seperated from the areas the players are involved in. Although I wasn't expecting Lordalm to clamp down quite so hard on the idea of searching for the forgotten warforged. What?!? You practically give me on a silver platter an army of warforged that my eager little artificer hands can fondle! I can then use them to gaurd my backside as I break free from the tyranny of the ancient ways of Dhakanni to stride boldly into the future. Of course those looters of the old Dhakanni tomb will have to be dealt with. Lawdog's character is a little to narrow minded to realize he's serving something that died 4000 years ago. But oh well....:P And I didn't want you to stop posting because I was tired of reading your stuff. It was because its because I don't seem to have the time to read anymore. But I have this nice football holiday to catch up with my reading. Whew!
lordalm 02-04-07, 06:17 PM	Angramar the Artificier cursed the old fool of a clerk that had put him in this position. As the orcs descrating the tomb of one the Dhakanni generals or some such charged the position that he and his companions had taken up at the entrance. The lone orc sentry had fallen quickly enough but the rest looked like they were ready for a fight. Of course that simple minded goblin of General Madoc's wouldn't leave the orcs to pillage the ancient's burial place, never mind the fact that the supposed heirs would have been equally happy to do so. The rest seemed happy to fight for Dhakann, mostly because they never had to think for themselves. Soldiers all. "Fools," thought Angramar as the orcs came boiling up the passage that lead deeper into the crypt. Though wether that was a comment on the orcs or his compatriots, even Angramar would be hard pressed to say.
goblin_pride 02-05-07, 10:08 AM	"I've partitioned the areas you indicated for any troops our guests bring with them," Tuvaar said, "and I left the backdoors that Madoc demanded. Do you really think that Jaalan will be able to convince the fueding tribes to come?" "Were you able to make the halls we have for our guests appear defensible from the inside?" Vaarsuva asked. "Yes sire," Tuvaar said, "the stonemasons' work was of such quality that they had to make maps of the entrances for us. It seems odd that we would have to make them feel they could defend themselves even after we offer them our hospitality." "It is not us that they will worry about," Vaarsuva said, "The Kech Sharaat and the Kech Volaar are at war, that is why I ordered the reworking of the unused barracks' and halls. They will feel they are completely safe from their enemies behind the portion of the city we set aside for their use here." "The Marghuul are complaining about having to move from their current location," Tuvaar said, "but Daraak and Zalmua have convinced most of them it is a better part of the city." "How many did Daraak have to kill? Vaarsuva asked, grinning. "Only two," Tuvaar said, "but they were honorable disputes and Daraak allowed them to back down after drawing blood." "Prepare yourself, Tuvaar," Vaarsuva said, "if we are to talk, you will be called on to speak for the troops under your banner. Your troops are your clan in the eyes of imperial law, so you'll be included in all negotiations with the others. We may be called on to seat an emperor in a few days, I hope you're prepared for the consequences of it." "I am," Tuvaar said. "That's good," Vaarsuva said, "because I'm certainly not."
Thramzorean 02-05-07, 10:39 PM	Heh, I'd like to start another storyline here that would inlcude a couple of characters I've got going. Would you mind a (smaller!) set of posts going in and out here goblin_pride? I could [sblock] mine so to easily differentiate what's what. Main character will be Kharth Shei, a Dharkanni bugbear barbarian/scout and will be set in the west with the Shadow Marches. I'll also be tying in Grok (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11237261&postcount=27) and Hrak (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11234028&postcount=5)
goblin_pride 02-05-07, 10:50 PM	Feel free, Thramzorean, the boards are here for everyone.
goblin_pride 02-05-07, 10:52 PM	What?!? You practically give me on a silver platter an army of warforged that my eager little artificer hands can fondle! I can then use them to gaurd my backside as I break free from the tyranny of the ancient ways of Dhakanni to stride boldly into the future. Yeah, sure, you go ahead and tell yourself that's what they're for.
goblin_pride 02-08-07, 12:41 PM	Ghaash looked over the shoulder of the aging bugbear, "Why Kethet Bladesong, you've finally lost your mind." "How so?" Bladesong asked, looking up from his notes. "Well," Ghaash said, "looking at the plans you're laying out for the children, I notice that you've included material that even the students at Morgrave have difficulty with. Not to judge you too harshly, old friend, but do you think the children of the city goblins are capable of understanding the philosophy of the Sage?" "I do not know until I begin teaching it to them if they will understand, do I?" Bladesong said, "but I have a dozen students that already speak Dhakaani more fluently than Yatzuur there does. For them the desire to learn of their history and culture is great and I intend to fan those flames." "You've taught a dozen to speak Dhakaani already?" Ghaash asked. "Not alone," Bladesong said, "Taluur has taken a couple of them under his tutelage and the first thing he insisted on was that they be able to speak Dhakaani. The first few patrols he made of the lower city with them made the two whelps so eager to learn that they seem to have infected the others. Who knew that showing them that goblins are not weak would make them so eager to learn?" "Speaking Dhakaani does not make them Dhakaani," Ghaash said, "and I would imagine that he's taught them all manner of warcraft with no instruction whatsoever on honor, philosophy, history or culture." "On the contrary," Bladesong said, "both are well versed on the histories of the Razorcrown wars, both can recite more of the Law of the Dhakaan than Yatzuur, both are exceptionally skilled in the arts of warfare and one shows great promise in his understanding of the philosophy of Arkhuul the Sage. Taluur and I were planning to ask you if it would be possible to send them to Volaar Draal to take the oaths of a peacekeeper, since in a few weeks time we'll have more than a single peacekeeper can watch over." "Yatzuur is more than a single peacekeeper can watch over," Ghaash said. "You do realize I am standing right here, don't you?" Yatzuur asked.
goblin_pride 02-08-07, 02:05 PM	Taluur found the Talentan easily enough. The younglings knew his routine well, but Taluur thought it better he should confront the outlander. "Let's have it then, goblin," the ruffian said to the fishmonger, "I haven't got all day." "He speaks the truth, fishmonger," Taluur said, "he died the moment he entered this market." The Talentan turned quickly to face Taluur and said, "You'd best walk away before I open your belly for all these lazy wretches to see. Boromar owns this market and anyone that sells here will pay their tribute." "This is the goblin market," Taluur said, "and I've never seen a goblin named Boromar. Are you certain that he owns this market?" The Talentan pulled a blade and said, "You're a brave one, but you should know that Boromar will make these people pay for your insolence. I'll collect my due from you now, though." The Talentan moved faster than Taluur had expected and his blade caught him just above the elbow. Turning into the stroke Taluur buried the business end of his shortblade between two of the Talentan's ribs. "Boromar will know my name soon enough," Taluur said, "and I will make him pay for any injury the children of Dhakaan suffer in this city." With that, Taluur gave his blade a twist and jerked it free from the Talentan as blood flowed like a fountain from the gaping hole under the Talentan's arm. Turning to his apprentices, Taluur said, "Saatur, Jutaan, throw that garbage to the fishes, his head isn't a suitable trophy for the Law." Flicking the blood from his blade Taluur said, "This market is under my protection now, Fishmonger, spread the word, no goblin will be accosted by that scum here."
goblin_pride 02-09-07, 10:46 AM	I received a personal message the other day asking for a bit more of the Dhakaani of Sharn, Breland and Droaam. I looked back over the storyline and realized I left big enough gaps that I can add a deeper layering of characters and still not completely fill in some of the juicier plot hooks. So over the next few weeks I'll be adding a second and in some places a third and I think at least one fourth layer of characters removed from the Generals at home. I hope you're enjoying these as much as I'm enjoying the telling of the tale.
Nerdicus 02-10-07, 08:33 PM	Wow guys! I have been reading through this thread now for a few days(still not through it fully) and just had to say wow! Great work. I especially like the fluff bits. Can't wait to hear about the Sharn and Droaam clans and how you will tie them into everything. I am currently running a goblinoid solo campaign for someone and will be using much from your thread here. Quick question, have you guys put any thought as to how the Dragon Prophecy might tie into the Dhakaani past and present? Also, what do you think about this idea: Part of the reason as to why the Dhakaani empire fell so hard was a result of a magical desease that was inflicted apon the Bards who spread the knowledge and word of the empire. Nearly 2/3 of the bardic leaders fell to a strange desease that eventually ravaged the empire and played a huge part in it's decline into chaos and in fighting. Just an idea I have had floating around my head as I have been reading through the thread. That some assult on the Duur'kala that cut their numbers down drastically was a huge factor in the fall of the empire. Anyways, keep up the great work!
goblin_pride 02-11-07, 03:45 AM	Also, what do you think about this idea: Part of the reason as to why the Dhakaani empire fell so hard was a result of a magical desease that was inflicted apon the Bards who spread the knowledge and word of the empire. Nearly 2/3 of the bardic leaders fell to a strange desease that eventually ravaged the empire and played a huge part in it's decline into chaos and in fighting. Just an idea I have had floating around my head as I have been reading through the thread. That some assult on the Duur'kala that cut their numbers down drastically was a huge factor in the fall of the empire. I've put alot of thought into the Duur'kala. You'll note that in the fluff pieces spread out over the two or three dozen characters, there is only one. A musician is mentioned offhand by a character in another post but it isn't named or treated with the same respect as the Duur'kala Jaalan receives. The Dhakaani Duur'kala are treated with an absolute and utmost respect, because they're not just singers or musicians. A Duur'kala is a singer, musician, lorekeeper, arcanist, diplomat and the writers of the great dirges. Due to the varied roles of the Duur'kala and the position of one specific Duur'kala in their history, the Dhakaani often times will treat a true Duur'kala with more respect than they would a clan leader, general, warlord and sometimes, though very rarely, even an emperor. A disease afflicting the Duur'kala isn't needed to explain the collapse of the empire, simply because the Duur'kala aren't the leaders. It was a lack of leadership to listen to the rare few Duur'kala of power that led to the fall. When the last emperor died at Cazhaak Draal the competing Imperial clans ignored tradition and squabbled over which bloodline would next bear the crown of the empire rather than listening to their Duur'kala who were calling for further assualt on the Daelkyr invaders. Many of the Duur'kala died alongside the generals, clan leaders, warlords and armies that did follow their words.
goblin_pride 02-11-07, 03:52 AM	Quick question, have you guys put any thought as to how the Dragon Prophecy might tie into the Dhakaani past and present? I can't imagine that the Dhakaani would care one bit about the dragons or the prophecy. If the prophecy was so all-knowing and the dragons so all-powerful, why didn't they swoop down and prevent the Daelkyr from decimating the empire? The Dhakaani view would most likely be that the dragons could have acted to prevent the daelkyr from destroying the empire but didn't, so they must be against the empire.
Darth Syntax 02-11-07, 04:07 AM	I generally agree that the Dhakaani didn't much care about the dragons or their prophesy. Indeed, I generally think the Empire held the dragons in contempt. -- On the Issue of the Fall of the Empire I would imagine that the fact that the Empire (which in my own imaginings was seen as functionally omnipotent and politically ideal by its people) could not defeat the Daelkyr was a major factor in destabilizing the state. In addition, the fact that 'barbarians', (and worse yet orcish, religious, barbarians) had been more effective against the forces of Xoriat than the 'wise, the detached, and the rational' people of the Empire could not of helped. After the wars, the people lost confidence in the Empire, they lost their will. And without the supreme effort of the populace, the Empire and its bureaucracy fell apart.
goblin_pride 02-11-07, 04:14 AM	In addition, the fact that 'barbarians', (and worse yet orcish, religious, barbarians) had been more effective against the forces of Xoriat than the 'wise, the detached, and the rational' people of the Empire could not of helped. After the wars, the people lost confidence in the Empire, they lost their will. And without the supreme effort of the populace, the Empire and its bureaucracy fell apart. This was part of the problem I had with the model you presented initially. If the empire collapsed because the people lost faith in it, what would motivate them to rebuild it in any fashion? History would tell them the empre failed and that would be a serious stumbling block to rebuilding it.
Darth Syntax 02-11-07, 05:01 AM	It would be technically impossible to remake the old empire, there has been too much intervening history. However, it would be possible to use the empire (and its near-mythic status) as a model for the making of a new state. The modern goblinoids don't know all the history of their past, only bits and pieces , but they are enough to be powerful symbols. The great lesson of the old Empire is that no state can last forever, and such notions are the dreams of madmen. So, one does not set out to build a state to last forever, one builds a state to create stability now, and in the current political climate this might go over rather well. The Second Empire (should such a state ever come into existence) would be a very different sort of polity than the old Empire, but it would borrow from the traditions of the ancient state. This new state would not be a 'goblinoid state' (and the fact that the old one was such was largly an accident of history) but a 'Khorvairan' state. It would have to include gnomes, humans, khoravar, the goblinoids, and others. There really isn't any way around this sort of thing, and so the new empire would necessarily be a more cosmopolitan affair than the old one. I, for one, imagine that a great many people are tried of 'galifar this' and 'galifar that' and the image of an empire that lasted thousands of years, as opposed to hundreds might be appealing. If the Kech Volaar manage to articulate a plan for unity it will have to stretch beyond the neo-dhakaani for it to be successful. Breland seems a likely target for a plan of unification and consolidation of power. If (or in my case when) Breland erupts in civil war what better way of retaking the old imperial heartland than by coming in and keeping the peace? The clans will have to make themselves indispensable to the stability of the region, to the point that they become the de facto rules of the place. They come in and bring the peace, the wine, the roads, the olive oil, and the engineers. They rebuild, they don't destroy and they show the Brels that they are not only civilized, but civilizing. Once this is achieved, they can attempt to implement further measures, such as the abolition of the hereditary nobility in favor of a meritocratic aristocracy in the model of the old empire. The real trick will be not imposing themselves as a new ruling class. If they hold onto their new power by force and intimidation, it's not going to work, and the other nations of the continent are going to squish them like a bug. However, if the new rulers of southern Khorvaire are at least tolerated by their people, because well 'the trains run on time', then the people don't feel so conquered and will not send to the others for assistance.
goblin_pride 02-11-07, 08:02 AM	"Sit still," Hratec said, "or you'll have such a scar that people will think it was an alligator that made the wound, not some wretched Talentan." "I thought you were a healer," Taluur said. "Who gave you that foolish idea," Hratec said, "I'm here because the rest of you lot would make a mess of the recovery of the artifacts. I'm here for the planning of our operations. The fact that I can do a bit of simple surgery is just lucky for you." "His luck is better than you know," Bladesong said, "look here on the map. The market he chose for today's squabble with the talentan is in a perfect location. It's close enough to the docks we can use it to to build a fortified enclave for our traders that will be arriving soon. Most of the residences around it are empty because the talentans have been extorting such huge amounts of money from the goblins that they would rather live elsewhere. It wouldn't take too much effort to build the walls needed to protect our goods and people around Taluur's marketplace." "Wouldn't it make more sense to discuss this with your commander," Ghaash said, "rather than his clerk?" "My apologies commander," Taluur said, "my assault on the talentan was foolish, I may have compromised us. I will gather my belongings and move into one of the residences near to the market so that if the city watch is alerted I will not betray your mission." "You're quite right, it was foolish," Ghaash said, "with all the artifacts and relics within our reach you could have ruined our chances of securing them without the use of force." "I think you may be failing to see the opportunity commander," Bladesong said, "he has demonstrated clearly and openly that the city goblins don't have to suffer the whims of others any longer. I say we should seize this opportunity and make that marketplace a permanent outpost, so that when the merchant-captain arrives he can move right in and begin his work." "You are no Duur'kala yet, Bladesong," Ghaash said, "you still serve me, remember that when you speak." "My apologies," Bladesong said, "commander." "Taluur, you will move into that marketplace you've apparently made ours," Ghaash said, "and take this aspiring Duur'kala with you. When General Yuni arrives, she'll be needing a residence and base of operations. I expect you think you'll be recruiting additional peacekeepers, Persecutor Taluur?" "I'm not a persecutor, sir," Taluur said, "I'm a simple peacekeeper." "General Yuni was pleased with your recruits from within the city goblins," Ghaash said, "you are promoted, Persecutor Taluur and ordered to continue recruiting until you have enough to protect the Dhakaani citizens that will be filtering into this city. You have my permission as your former commander to leave my service and take up the task given you. I'm giving you Bladesong to teach the Dhakaani way to the city goblins so that you might be able to increase the number of recruits as quickly as possible. That is unless he has some desire to write a dirge on the death of Dura'sharaat rather than help to rebuild and retake it."
goblin_pride 02-11-07, 08:50 AM	The Second Empire (should such a state ever come into existence) would be a very different sort of polity than the old Empire, but it would borrow from the traditions of the ancient state. This new state would not be a 'goblinoid state' (and the fact that the old one was such was largly an accident of history) but a 'Khorvairan' state. It would have to include gnomes, humans, khoravar, the goblinoids, and others. I came to a similar conclusion about the new empire having to be a much more cosmopolitan affair than the previous incarnations. If I recall your timeline correctly though, the modern Dhakaani empire wouldn't be the second, it'd be more like the twelfth or thirteenth. I think grasping the idea that the empire is somewhat malleable politically and racially makes rebuilding it much easier. As long as citizenship is tied to striving for the ideals laid out by the Dhakaan, the Race of the Dhakaani in question would be irrelevant. It is after all, an empire founded on the philosophical viewpoints of a radical thinking Hobgoblin bard. (Stick that in your pipe and smoke it, Tolkien)
goblin_pride 02-11-07, 10:44 AM	"Master Longshanks," Jaalan said, "May I have a word with you?" "Certainly, Duur'kala," he said, slowing to match the pace of the hobgoblin's mount. "When we reach the citadel," Jaalan said, "will we have time for a bath and a decent meal? Or would it be insulting for me to indulge myself while others prepare to march?" "The Dhakaani of the citadel value you, Duur'kala," Longshanks said, "a bath and a hot meal after the many days in the saddle would not insult them in the least. I'm planning to drink as much wine as it takes to get the taste of the Ghaal'dar food off my tongue. I may even join you in the bath." "Good," Jaalan said, "I was worried that I might insult them by enjoying the simple pleasure of a hot bath while they prepared to march out." Longshanks looked at the Duur'kala for a moment and then asked, "That's your biggest worry? If a bath would insult the others? I had thought perhaps telling them of your plans would be more of a worry."
goblin_pride 02-11-07, 11:21 AM	Madoc walked through the doors to the baths, the steam rolling past him into the hall behind. He was troubled by a thought he couldn't shake. He found Jaalan lying on a table, Suuwo working hard to relax the Duur'kala's muscles. "If you have a moment, Duur'kala," he said, "I have a question and am in need of wisdom." "A general seeking wisdom? A rare occurance lately," Jaalan said, "what is it that vexes you?" Noting Suuwo was blind, not deaf, Madoc said, "If an architect entrusts a builder with all the secrets of a fortress and later finds that builder is untrustworthy, what should he do?" "An interesting question," Jaalan said, "Am I to take it then that the builder may betray those secrets?" "That is the worry," Madoc said, "but to what extent and for what purpose, I do not know." Jaalan paused for a moment and said, "Do we need the builder any longer or has his usefulness come to an end? We must weigh his value before deciding this matter." "He could continue to be useful," Madoc said, "but I fear his loyalties may be in question. I have others more loyal to the design and equally capable." "Kill the builder, general," Jaalan said, "and be quick about it."
goblin_pride 02-11-07, 12:17 PM	"Is there a general of the citadel not currently immersed in water?" Vaarsuva asked. "Daraak is getting a massage," Longshanks said, lifting the wine cup to his mouth. "But otherwise it would seem all of the commanding miscreants are bathing." "General Zalmua of the Paluur'uru is up on the palace tier," Tuvaar said, "preparing Daraak's new quarters there." Holding a kebab out towards Vaarsuva he said, "Rat, warlord? One of the females among the Snowwalkers cooks them with spices that will amaze you. I would take her for a wife if only she was a hobgoblin." "Then it would seem the bath cavern will serve as the war council's chamber for the time being," Vaarsuva said, slipping into the near-scalding water. "Tell me, Jaalan, how was your journey?" "Very productive," Jaalan said, "I've arranged for the others to come to the pass of Daanalor, where all will have the opportunity to speak so that we can resolve the issues of succession and begin the work of rebuilding the empire." "How did you get them all to agree to come?" Daraak asked. "I told them that the warlords Daraak and Vaarsuva had united and wished to discuss an alliance," Jaalan said, "and that their personal concerns would be addressed in turn." Longshanks face went blank as he stared at the Duur'kala. "Was that before or after telling Haruuc that Daraak and Vaarsuva's forces would come down out of the mountains and crush his petty kingdom if he didn't attend the meeting?" "It wasn't that bad," Jaalan said, "I told him they offered him their hospitality at the Daanalor and alliance as an alternative to marching on his kingdom. Haruuc was actually much more receptive than the others. I would imagine that he will be the easiest to convince to join our cause." "And what happens when each marches an army into the pass?" Madoc asked. "Each one will," Jaalan, " I told them that the wilds of Darguun are dangerous and that an entourage of two hundred of their soldiers should be sufficient to give them protection from their enemies and ensure that all will return from the meeting unharmed." "Two hundred?" Vaarsuva asked. "yes," Jaalan said, "you will of course be taking one thousand each. I want all parties to know that the forces of our warlords can usher them into the grave at any time they wish."
Nerdicus 02-11-07, 01:18 PM	In my comment about the dragon prophecy I think I did not make my viesws and thoughts all that clear. In my thinking and my Eberron world, the dragon prophecy touches nearly everything. In so much, I have it where the fall of the Dhakaani empire at the hands of madness was written into said prophecy and so the dragons merely watched it unfold and took no part( except perhaps causing the Durkalaa to have the problem I mentioned in my previous post) and that the rise of the fallen empire is also written into the prophecy. For the dragons, they couldn't care less what the other races think of their work, or their actions, as long as said races play their part in the prophecy. Most things that are meant to happen will happen in one way shape or another, irrigardless of the awarness of ones part in it. Back to the SHarn goblins and their part in the reformation of the Dhakaani empire: I'm using the Daask versus Boromar fued as the screen behind which the Dhakaani are going to begin moving in and taking control of the goblins in Sharn. So far I have it so that the Daask force seizing control of Malleon's gate for good are being advised by a female hobgoblin Dur'kalaa. She has not let any of the Daask know who or what she is, but she is secretly using their ambitions to allow her to begin forming loyal groups or cells of goblinoids in Sharn to aid the Empire in its reformation and rise to power. I see the remaining Dhakaani forces as fully understanding that because of their lack of numbers, for now they are fighting a guerilla war. They are moving in the shadows of the power forces present in Khorvaire and building their forces in secret. Small cells of Dhakaani loyalists are in each and every city subverting the goblinoids presnet to their way of thinking. Many of these forces of goblinoids are not aware of what is going on and never will be, but others are taken into confidence after they have proven their loyalty and worth to the Dhakaani leaders. In Sharn, the PC in my solo game is going to be first working on securing the goblinoid clan that lives in the sewers benieth Malleon's Gate and beyond. First is to unify theese goblins as a clan and organize their efforts. I'll have to wait and see how things play out to give you his next move.
Darth Syntax 02-11-07, 02:11 PM	I came to a similar conclusion about the new empire having to be a much more cosmopolitan affair than the previous incarnations. If I recall your timeline correctly though, the modern Dhakaani empire wouldn't be the second, it'd be more like the twelfth or thirteenth. I think grasping the idea that the empire is somewhat malleable politically and racially makes rebuilding it much easier. As long as citizenship is tied to striving for the ideals laid out by the Dhakaan, the Race of the Dhakaani in question would be irrelevant. It is after all, an empire founded on the philosophical viewpoints of a radical thinking Hobgoblin bard. (Stick that in your pipe and smoke it, Tolkien) You're right about the numbers of course *tries to save skin . . . * I think I've been away from the thread for too long.
goblin_pride 02-11-07, 05:11 PM	So far I have it so that the Daask force seizing control of Malleon's gate for good are being advised by a female hobgoblin Dur'kalaa. She has not let any of the Daask know who or what she is, but she is secretly using their ambitions to allow her to begin forming loyal groups or cells of goblinoids in Sharn to aid the Empire in its reformation and rise to power. The one big red flag I can see with that is the connections between Droaam and the Daelkyr. Droaam may not be directly tied to the Daelkyr currently, but the aberrations that seem to be accepted in Droaam would at the very least annoy a Dhakaani, if not provoke a fatal encounter for one side or the other. Another possible sticking point for me would be a Duur'kala living so far from the heart of Dhakaani territory. The dirge singers are of such vital importance to Dhakaani society that I can't really see one going so far afield by themselves. I would probably use a scout team with 5-10 members made up of a varied mix of peacekeepers (cops), infiltrators (spies, cut-throats and sabotuers) and raiders (thieves). A Dhakaani scout team would be slightly more adept at disrupting the criminal organizations, would give you a third party in the conflict in the bowels of the city and would allow you to call in reinforcements if you kill off one of the Dhakaani NPCs to advance the storyline.
Nerdicus 02-11-07, 06:00 PM	I am seeing the Daelkyr connection as being used as a purpose for the split. You see, the forming up with the Daask forces is purely an oppertunity for the Dhakaani scout teams to inflitrate Sharn. But not the only one, there will be three teams I think that are invading Sharn. One for the lower wards, one for the middle and one for the top platuea. Each will consist of a good mix of goblinoids from the empire forces as you have suggested. Super clandistined opperation where there plan is to inflitrate the gangs of the lower wards, the Sharn city watch( with a few placed officials in the workings who are working on some scheme, and another that will work on the financial subterfuge within the upper crust of Sharn. I am going to be using the empire much how you guys have been decsribing it in the thread discussion here except for some slight changes. The main one being that they are now The Hidden Empire for this campaign. They have been building their forces over the years and are finally ready to begin their sieze for control. It is going to be a long play, far reaching stradegem that the player will learn about in bits and pieces over sthe entire campaign. How much the player gets into that will depend on how detailed I get inot it all, but I'm hoping he takes the Dhakaani bait! Anyways, the Dhakaani forces have come to realize through years of watching that the only real way they are going to succesfully stage a move for power of any type that is going to last, they need to work on nearly every major city and certainly every nation that now exists. Cells of strike teams infiltrate the city and make their way into postions that will give them control and or leaverage for power in the city. Control of the gangs and lower class is always the key to each one. If the city warrants it other strike teams will infiltrate other aspects of the city/state. But for the purpose of this campaign and am mostly going to be focus on Sharn. I also intend to include the exploration of the Dhakaani ruins benieth Sharn for artifacts and cool pric-a-prac. A trip to the Seawall mountains to meet with some of the Dhakaani empirial leaders. A trip into the Eldeen reaches to search for a rare breed of griffon like beast. (The creature is of my own creation and is basically a wolf/owl cross that a small creature could as a mount. The fiercely intelegent flying creature will be pinnacle for the creaion of a new clan of goblins called the Silent Wings) That is as far as I have planned. And that is rough given that it is still very open as to what the player is going to decide his character is going to want to do. Ramblesaurus Rex there.
goblin_pride 02-11-07, 06:30 PM	Jatuun stood in the doorway of the car, watching the scenery fly by. "This lightning rail is impressive," he said, "but truth be told, I prefer to ride or march, old friend." Dagdaruun lifted the brim of his travelling hat up so he could look at the goblin before saying, "so would I, had I known we were going to have to ride with the freight. If the fools knew the number of coins in those bags, we'd have been treated like kings, I think." "Wasn't the point that we reach Sharn without attracting attention?" Jatuun asked. "Don't remind me," Dagdaruun said, "this roughspun is torture. I would kill for a hot bath and silk robes." Jatuun looked over at the hobgoblin and said, "Playing at being a merchant prince has made you soft, old friend. Don't worry though, once we reach Sharn, you'll be able to return to your accustomed disguise regardless of my desire to see you in mail." "I was able to get a few of the scouting reports from earlier teams in Sharn," Dagdaruun said, "I'm going to have a great deal for you to do when we get there." "I despise killing merchants," Jatuun said, "there's no sport in it." "It's not just merchants, old friend," Dagdaruun said, "we're being sent into a conflict according to some of the reports. The criminals among the locals may test your considerable skills. I have copies of the reports in my bag if you'd like to read them." "I may do that in a little while," Jatuun said, "but in the meantime, at least one of us should sleep. I'll keep watch while you nap."
goblin_pride 02-11-07, 07:06 PM	A goblin dressed all in black crept soundlessly down the hallway of the governor's residence. Moving from one pool of shadow to the next, he moved with the fluid grace of a cat stalking a mouse. As he approached the door to the inner suite he stopped. Two guards blocked his entry. Pulling a pair of matching daggers from his sleeves he threw them casually into the throats of the pair. Moving to the door, he pushed it open with a sound like silk brushing across glass. Inside was his target, the treacherous Governor Hatuur. "I had wondered when you would come," Hatuur said, not looking up from the page he was reading. "My death is ordered, is it?" The goblin in black pulled back his hood and said, "Sadly, yes, you are a threat to the empire, brother. Your personal ambitions overshadow the work we do." "I had thought you would send a lackey, Madoc," Hatuur said, "I had even hoped for it. I suppose we'll both go to our graves with the blood of kin on our hands." "I could not leave your death at the hands of some wretched lackey, brother," Madoc said. "It would be a dishonor to you." "And what is to be the instrument of my death?" Hatuur asked. "A mace etched with To'ova's own seal," Madoc said, "I had thought you might approve of using your death to finish the merchant clans." "That I do," Hatuur said, "be done with it then." Madoc raised the mace and struck, crushing half of Hatuur's skull. He dropped the mace on the floor next to the body and said, "My apologies, brother, may the empress preserve you." He turned quickly and left the way he came.
goblin_pride 02-12-07, 12:00 PM	"What was the commotion this morning?" Vaarsuva asked. "Nothing you should worry about, Warlord," Tuvaar said, "a minor bit of trouble with one of the merchant clans. A civil matter, dealt with as quickly as it arose." "Dealing with civil matters now, are you?" Vaarsuva asked. "Did you suddenly become governor while I was asleep?" "Actually, yes," Tuvaar said, reading, "Hatuur was assassinated last night. As commanding general of the Citadel I was responsible for appointing his replacement until the Council could confirm my choice or replace him. I would've woken you for advice, but I thought you might enjoy some relief from your old duties." "So who is the new Governor?" Vaarsuva asked. "Jolun of the Daru'khesh," Tuvaar said, "Although, I gave the order to the Keepers of the Law to do their duties this morning and eliminate one of the merchant clans. The weapon that killed Hatuur belonged to To'ova. The monies from the sale of underlings of the clan will go to the Citadel, since Hatuur had no heir and was a serving military officer. The heads of the leaders of To'ova's clan were delivered to the Daru'khesh this morning." "And the goods of the merchants?" Vaarsuva asked. "Again, with no heirs," Tuvaar said, "those belong to the Citadel. I informed Madoc they could be sent off to his agents in foreign markets after the generals looked over them for anything usable by the army." "Sensible," Vaarsuva said. "I sent purchasers to the slave market to buy any of the underlings from the clan that are fit as recruits," Tuvaar said, "With all the weight in gold from the clan, I thought the extra recruits might bolster our numbers." From the door, Madoc said, "And since the coins from the sale are coming to the Citadel anyway, we'll profit in coin and numbers. I'm beginning to think you're brilliant, Tuvaar." "I learned from the best, general," Tuvaar said, grinning.
Nerdicus 02-12-07, 12:04 PM	Hey Goblin Pride, would you mind if I added my own fluff text from the game I'm running? My text posts will most likely be from either the point of view of Skalaa, a young female goblin hier of Dhakaani who is currently posing as an apprentice of aan artificer in Malleons Gate named Garduush. She is both getting training from Garduush in the ways of the Artificer and also gathering information that will aid the Dhakaani in subverting the goblinoids of SHarn. And the young Durkalaa in training who is working side by side with a hobgoblin leader of the Daask forces who are taking over Malleons Gate. Her name is...Buraa'sa. There are other members of the strike force but those two are the ones that will be directly connected to the character in the game.
goblin_pride 02-12-07, 12:07 PM	Hey Goblin Pride, would you mind if I added my own fluff text from the game I'm running? If you wish, but I would recommend against intersecting with characters from my posts. As evidenced by post #758, none of them are immune to dying. Sorry, Lordalm, Hatuur had to go to further the storyline.
Nerdicus 02-12-07, 12:29 PM	Yeah, I was thinking that the strike force that they are a part of answer to different generals and captains then the ones in your story line. But I am planning on writing them as both taking place at the same time. Are you going to be writing about the taking of Malleon's Gate? Cause if so, I'll probably not bother posting fluff text from my game. But if you are willing to leave out that aspect of the Sharn story I'll happily fluff up that part of the story. For now most of it will have to wait until our next session before I can really get into it. so far not too much has happened in the story. The PC found two items in the Hidden forge whihc are Dhakaani weapons. A Byeshk short sword and a sweet composite short bow. Both weapons are the weapons of teh Silent wolves which were found by a Cannith explorer in the ruins of teh old Dhakaani fortress under Sharn. Anyways, the PC is hoping to use the Hidden forge as a place to set up camp and base and begin uniting the working class goblinoids of Malleon's Gate benieth his banner, The Hidden Forge Clan. I still need to find a good sounding Goblinoid name for that. Anyways, in our next session the Daask forces are going to be meeting with the local leaders and gangs of Malleon's Gate to see who will be able to last under their rule and who will need to be done away with. Obviously the Hidden Forge Clan will be one that is allowed to carry on...for now. After reading all the way through this thread and now starting my own goblinoid game using the Dhakaani empire I almost hope that the Wizards don't make an official supplement book about them. It might just go against too much of the stuff you guys have already come up with. But then again, it would be nice to have some official info to go off of.
goblin_pride 02-12-07, 01:12 PM	"How is it you can ride so many days without rest, Sergeant?" Yuni asked. "Training, general," Arkhuul the Runt said, "We're Longriders, our training is geared towards covering vast distances, so we're taught to ride for hours without end." "Longriders?" Yuni asked. "Yes, general," the Runt said, "The Taarka'khesh can be roughly categorized by our training and the philosophy and tactics we employ. We are the Longriders, followers of Suubadai the Longrider in philosophy and tactics. We're taught from our first whelping that we can cover the countless miles of the trackless lands if we pace ourselves and ride night and day. Many times it's only the sheer will of the pack that keeps us alive as we ride for three, four or five days straight." "How do you endure it?" Yuni asked. "The strong survive, general," the Runt said, "My thighs are like steel from the endless weeks traversing the lands of Darguun and Breland. We are the messengers the generals of the Citadel prefer because we're more likely to get through than our wilder kin, so we get plenty of opportunity to strengthen ourselves for the long rides." "You have wilder kin?" Yuni said. "Of course, General," the Runt answered, "the Wildriders. They're taught to expend the bulk of their energy in wild ferocious bursts, attacking furiously without regard for themselves. They're far more preferable in combat because of the massive casualties they'll inflict on the enemy. Once the bloodlust grips their packs, it's almost impossible to tear them from the fight." "I never knew there was such diversity among the Taarka'khesh," Yuni said, "are there others?" "The only others I know of are the Far-riders," the Runt said, "they are a bit like the Black Wanderers of your clan. They are usually lone Taarka'khesh that have no pack. The Lone wolves tend to push themselves to reach the lost clans that may be in hiding elsewhere. Travelling alone in the wildlands must be very lonely for them. I often wonder how it is they would accept such a torture, living far from home with no pack." "That would be a torture, wouldn't it," Yuni said, thinking of her brother. "Sharn is not far, General," the Runt said, "we could be there in the morning if you wish to travel night and day." "As you wish," Yuni said, "master Longrider, your duty is to get me to Sharn. I leave the time of our arrival in your hands." Turning to the others, the Runt said, "Saarun, Khuutala, mount up, the general wishes to prove she should be Taarka'khesh."
Nerdicus 02-13-07, 11:54 AM	Closing the door silently behind her, Skalaa quickly glances down the dark street before clutching the cloth wrapped bundle to her chest and making her way to the meeting place. Knowing that she doesn't have long before Garduush will become suspiscious she makes her way directly to the dark alley where she is to meet Buraa'sa. The dark streets of Malleon's Gate are teeming with activity as they always are, but none give the small female goblin a second glance as she swiftly makes her way down the streets. Even though Skalaa knows this, she can't help but glance over her shoulder a few times to make sure that no one is following her. Apon reaching the alley she finds Buraa'sa waiting for her with her arms folded across her chest. "I hope this was worth the risk Skalaa. That pig Horluud is not as stupid as he makes himself out to be. His eyes and ears will be looking for me the second they realize I am not at his side." Says the tall and lithe female hobgoblin. "I also have only a few moments before Garduush will know I am gone, but I fealt that you should see this." Skalaa quickly galnces around before unwrapping the bundle of cloth that she clutches in her hands. As the cloth slides away from the purple hued blade Buraa'sa hisses out in surprise, "Where did you find that?!" her hand reaches out to stroke the curved shortsword and trace the markings that run along the blade. "A young city goblin named Squibb found it in a hidden forge in the sewers benieth the streets here. As you can see, the weapon has no handle, but the oragins are unmistakable. This is a blade of the Taarka'khesh of old. " Replied Skalaa in a hushed voice. "Does he know what this is?" Asks Buraa'sa. "No. He knows it has value and worth, and recognizes the blade as vastly superior to anything he has every seen, but he does not know what it signifies." Buraa'sa thinks for a moment while tracing the etchings in the blade with a sharp finger nail before answering. "Is this goblin worthy of this blade?" "Perhaps, perhaps not. I have only just met the young man, but Garduush speaks quite highly of him. He says that Squibb has a chance of uniting the sewer goblins behind him." "Ahh, well then, we will let him have a chance to do this thing. If he is able to unite the city goblins under him, and if he shows wthe worth of the Dhakaani in his actions, his life will be spared for even considering the ownership of the blade. If he is not worthy, he will die so that someone more worthy can hold it. GO now, return to your Garduush and continue to learn what you can." Re-wrapping the blade in cloth Skalaa bows to Buraa'sa before heading back to Garduush's shop, the Tinkered Cog. As she moves her mind works at how to aid Squibb in his conquest without letting him know her intensions.
Nerdicus 02-14-07, 06:54 PM	I want to make up a PrC for a silent wolf but am having trouble hammering out something that will work properly. Have any of you guys figured one out? If not, we should work on it here for all our combined gonlinoid might.
goblin_pride 02-14-07, 07:04 PM	I want to make up a PrC for a silent wolf but am having trouble hammering out something that will work properly. Have any of you guys figured one out? If not, we should work on it here for all our combined gonlinoid might. I don't think a PrC is appropriate* in this case. We're talking about an entire clan of goblins, how prestigeous would the class be if every one of them had it? Just give your NPCs higher than average ride skill and feats geared towards fighting from the saddle. *This is not just because I think PrCs are for munchkins and clerics, even though they are.
goblin_pride 02-16-07, 11:21 AM	Sadly, I think I've reached a point where any further posting would alter the timeline. I started the fluff pieces with the sole purpose of breathing more life into the Dhakaani remnant and painting a vivid image of the goblinoids struggling with both the death of the old empire and the birth of the new. Hopefully you've been able to draw something from the posts, but I'm sure that a few of the possible adventure ideas I left buried in the text were missed, much like unexploded landmines. I find myself discovering in the posts new little nuggets that I didn't even realize I had left there. Lordalm pointed out to me that if I progress the storyline further, I'll break my own taboo of adding to the canon but not adding anything that will progress past the 998YK start date. The scheming and plotting within the little Dhakaani pocket posted here can all occur in the days and weeks leading up to the start of a campaign and should give any DM a decent basis for running a very rewarding "Rebirth" campaign. One thing to remember when looking at these posts is that not every character is integral to the plots and schemes, PCs may be doing the exact same tasks as others. Just because one NPC is presented doing a given task doesn't mean that there aren't dozens of others working at the same task all over Khorvaire. The infiltrators working in Sharn may be one of three, four or ten other teams doing the exact same thing.
goblin_pride 02-18-07, 02:06 AM	I was thinking about the Dhakaani weapons the other day. Looking back over the posts, I noticed that I made many references to longblades and shortblades. I intentionally left the descriptions vague so that you could pretty much use whatever fit your impressions of the Dhakaani. In my own game, the blades of the Dhakaani are simply that, blades. The guards and hilts of European-style weapons are mostly absent from Dhakaani weapons, because a blade is meant for cutting, not blocking. For the most part, the hilt of a Dhakaani blade is simply the piece that holds the blade to the grip and that's it. Also lacking are the decorative and offensive pommels common to European weapons, for a Dhakaani it seems silly to put a secondary offensive use to a weapon that has such a lethal primary.
goblin_pride 02-20-07, 04:38 AM	On the status of chains, flails and whips in the Dhakaani arsenal: The use of the chain as a weapon dates back farther in our history than the written word, so much of what is held as tradition may have been altered by the passage of time and the prevailing philosophies of the age. What we do know is that the common winnowing flails used by our farmers and the whips used to drive animals are indeed the root of all chain weapons. How such simple farming implements became the weapons of honor among the Dhakaani is a subject of much debate. The prevailing wisdom seems to be that the first of the soldiers of the Dhakaani were simply farmers called on to defend their farms and as such, they used the implements of their work as weapons. Although a reasonable explanation, my own thoughts are more akin to those of Arkhuul the Sage who wrote that the soldiers of the Dhakaani began carrying the tools of the field into battle so that the farmers of the empire could share in the glory of the armies. Whatever the origins, the importance of the chain in Dhakaani culture has elevated it to a status unmatched by any other weapon. As one of, if not the most difficult weapons to learn to wield, the chain is also a symbol of the slavery of it's wielder to the ideals of the great Dhakaan. A master of the spiked chain is often treated with the same respect as a general simply for the time they've devoted to learning to use a weapon capable of easily maiming an unskilled wielder. One thing you should be aware of when travelling in western Darguun. The length of the chain in a flail will warn you of the skill of the goblinoid in question. Masters of the "Dance of the Broken Mace*" among the bugbears of the Marghuul will often carry lengths of seemingly normal chain that they are quite capable of killing with. -Kethet Trollbait *One of the philosophers of the Marghuul, Tar'zhaak the Sad is often quoted as saying that "it is foolish to carry a rigid, unyielding weapon in the chaos of battle. Far better to use a weapon that is more like the chaos, that way you dance among your enemies without fear of your resolve being broken."
Nived 02-20-07, 11:11 AM	You know I have often considered that the spiked chains could have been a practical and eligant (if the term can be applied) answer to fighting the tenticled horrors of the Daelkyr Wars. Consider the Dolgaunt, CR2 creature that was supposedly created from twisting hobgoblins. These were probably one of the most common, and most tradgic foes foguht durring the Daelkyr wars... Look how they fight. Tenticles with 10 foot reach, improved trip as a racial bonus feat. Combat Reflexes... these guys are murder on close combat, not only that their worst attack vitality drain only works if they can get ahold of you and bear hug you. Not something you want to get close to. How do you fight something like that? A spiked chain is going to be darn handy I can tell you that much.
goblin_pride 02-20-07, 12:01 PM	A spiked chain is going to be darn handy I can tell you that much. So would a longspear and you could stand side-by-side with your mates and kill anything that got in front of the lot of you. Within a lawful society, I'm had quite a bit of trouble trying to integrate what would seem to be a skirmisher's weapon. I had to create an entirely new line of philosophy in order to make it fit, but it still feels somewhat shoehorned for the moment. The philosophy was going to exist anyway, but the idea struck me last night and I wanted to get at least part of the idea out while it was still fresh.
arjomanes 02-21-07, 12:33 PM	I'd just like to mention I really appreciate all the thought and work and time put into this thread. The Dhakaan empire and the modern goblins are so important to Eberron and I think the work you have done here is simply amazing. I haven't had a chance yet to read through all the pages, much less begin to process and collate all the information, or expand on the concepts in my own campaign. Just wanted to say thanks.
Darth Syntax 02-21-07, 02:44 PM	So would a longspear and you could stand side-by-side with your mates and kill anything that got in front of the lot of you. Within a lawful society, I'm had quite a bit of trouble trying to integrate what would seem to be a skirmisher's weapon. I had to create an entirely new line of philosophy in order to make it fit, but it still feels somewhat shoehorned for the moment. The philosophy was going to exist anyway, but the idea struck me last night and I wanted to get at least part of the idea out while it was still fresh. According to my sources (collected from the dusty vaults of my imagination)the use of the spiked chain originated in Operatic performance where it was used because of it's inherent showiness. Its military use arose in the Yimyataaq wars (some 700 years before the coming of the Daelkyr) where the chains were used to great effect in both disarming the heavily armed Yimyataaq and in knocking riders off their horses; either by tripping the horse or by pulling the rider from the animal. The chain was almost always used with either a spear or other pole-arm so that the entangled enemy could be quickly and efficiently dispatched. The chain quickly became a weapon associated with great skill and there was a brief vogue of carrying chains in public as a kind of status symbol. Eventually, the chain found it's way into gladiatorial combat where it's fearsome reputation and flashy nature were a thrill to the crowds. This lead to the chains becoming increasingly popular among the more bombastic elements of society and chain-duels were commonplace for a time. The banning of blood-sports by the Sublime Magistrate Yďďlänöt Zhengäätünänv in 2118 KG (KG, stands for Kďlet gäätän, Cycles of the Law) effectively ended the public prominence of the spiked chain by making the possession of such weapons illegal to all but members of the military and operatic performers. The current use of the spiked chain among those goblinoids that look back to the glory of the empire is partly in emulation of the one of the most distinctive combat techniques of the empire, and partly out of a desire to form a distinct identity through material means. It's also still quite effective against mounted troops.
goblin_pride 02-21-07, 04:36 PM	The chain was almost always used with either a spear or other pole-arm so that the entangled enemy could be quickly and efficiently dispatched. There's a Dhakaani tactic if I ever saw one. One chain-wielder to pull an enemy down and another to spear the poor, disillusioned soul that refused to see the error of not adopting the Dhakaani ways.
goblin_pride 02-23-07, 01:28 PM	I was looking over all the fluff posts trying to make sure I left the all the doors open. Were there any of the storylines that came to a conclusion that couldn't be carried on farther? I think I'm just too close to the trees to see the whole forest here. As I've said before, I want each post or series of interconnected posts to end with an unresolved conflict. The loose ends will make a campaign your own, depending on how you tie them up and I've tried to not tie up many of them.
goblin_pride 02-26-07, 04:09 PM	I was reading through the posts on the Secrets of Sarlona thread the other day and a thought struck me. Hellcow mentioned that the Riedran government is as it is because the Quori need it to be. I was thinking about this and suddenly the Dhakaani empire took a different role for a moment in my thinking. Could the founding of the empire have been the work of the Quori initially and the incursion of the Daelkyr triggered by the actions of Dhakaani goblinoids bent on removing the Quori that they discovered as the puppetmasters behind the empire's throne? It doesn't alter any of the material already posted here, but it would cause alot more questions regarding the foundations of the empire and it's subsequent fall.
Darth Syntax 02-26-07, 04:17 PM	An interesting idea. I agree that there might be some superficial similarities between the Dhakaani empire and the Riedran state, and it makes for a great conspiracy theory. However, the idea of extraplanar involvement in the founding of the empire takes some of the fun out of the Dhakaani for me. Also, there seems to be a lack of the Quori footprint on the Dhakaani. The Empire was not a theocracy, and the favored tool of the Quori seems to be religion. Somehow the Empire, to me at any rate, is greater and more tragic if it was the creation of mortals, without extraplanar 'help'. -- In other news, I hope to have a sample of the OHD writing system up in a day or three for all those interested.
goblin_pride 02-26-07, 04:25 PM	However, the idea of extraplanar involvement in the founding of the empire takes some of the fun out of the Dhakaani for me. I agree whole-heartedly, but the thought as it was caused me to need to explore it before continuing on.
goblin_pride 02-26-07, 04:26 PM	In other news, I hope to have a sample of the OHD writing system up in a day or three for all those interested. Yes please. As I recall this whole blasted thread came from your work on the OHD language.
Darth Syntax 02-26-07, 04:49 PM	By the Wheels man, how on earth do you respond so fast? I have become convinced that you have a whole branch of the Civil Service working for you, combing the forums for threads. . . .How much are they an hour? The great grammatical revision of OHD continues, although slower than I would like (bloody job things), but I hope to have something presentable soon.
Joni-san 02-26-07, 04:53 PM	I bet he's subscribed to this thread, has the send notification for every post and is online constantly, refreshing his subscription list.
Darth Syntax 02-26-07, 06:03 PM	Well yes, but that's not quite as fun now is it?
goblin_pride 02-26-07, 06:40 PM	I bet he's subscribed to this thread, has the send notification for every post and is online constantly, refreshing his subscription list. Actually, I'm a cab driver that only works weekends so I have plenty of time to read anything that comes up on the boards as soon as you hit the "submit" button. I know there's more I could be posting so alot of the time I'll be sitting here looking at a blank reply screen thinking. *note to self, hire more civil servants.
lordalm 02-26-07, 09:17 PM	Captain Ariic sat quitely behind his desk just having read his chief investigator's report on the growing gang unrest in the lower wards of Sharn. The furrows along his brow grew deeper as his thoughts branched out from the possibilities presented by the the investigator. "So, if one was to agree with your conclusions based on the evidence presented here," said Captain Ariic while tapping his index finger down repeatedly on the report, "we seem to have a third criminal faction. From the goblins of all places as a competing 'organization' against the other criminal elements." Chief Investigator Brian Woodbook schooled his features in the face of his superiors obvious disbelief. Not suprising considering how the ubiqutous presence of the goblins in Sharn was generally ingnored, unless something was stolen. Clearing his throat a tad. CI Brian spoke, "Sir I realize it seems to be a stretch. But the goblins around Malleon's Gate and other places in the lower wards and the Cogs are organizing. The reports are increasing by the day. And sir, Boromar isn't going to be able to handle this with the pressure its under from the other monster crime cartlel that has sprung up since the end of the war. We can't ignore this. It could be just another power play from Droam." Captain Aiirc squints at his man, "Perhaps, that would explain the organizational skills needed to pull this off. Though galls me to say it." The captain looks down reflexevilley at the report before looking eyes with his investigator. "Not a word to anyone on your conclusions. Keep gathering information. I think you may be on to something. I also think this might be more than the city watch can or should handle. I have friend with the King's Dark Lanterns. I will aproach her and see what she has to say about it. Dismissed." CI Brian breathes a quiet sigh, "Yes Sir!" Snapping to his feet, saluting and turn smartly on his heel to march out of Captain Aiirc's office. "I guess o'l rat face can see the forest fore the trees, if you cut enough down for him", mused CI Brian to himself as he made his way back to his office.
goblin_pride 02-28-07, 07:41 AM	"This is a nightmare," Jolun said, "I'm beginnig to think Hatuur's head simply exploded from hearing too much of the whining of the merchant clans." "Problems, Governor?" Tuvaar asked, a smile beginning to show itself at the corners of his mouth. "Nothing that couldn't be solved by a few hundred troops moving through the civilain quarters, commander" Jolun said. "I thought you would enjoy the challenge of your current posting," Tuvaar said, "it was Madoc that suggested it. If you'd like I can find someone else to assume the mantle of governor. But, of course, that would mean either your exile or death, because I can't have a former governor making the job difficult for the new governor." "Madoc?" Jolun said, aghast. "Yes," Tuvaar said, "he told me all sorts of little secrets about you, my young friend. I agreed with him fully, as governor you can do no harm to our plans. Your seat in the grand council is occupied by another, so you have no say in the making of laws an appointments. Hatuur had the command of the peacekeepers transferred to me during his brief time in that office of yours, so you have no say in the execution of the laws. And considering that your every move is watched by those who seek your office, you cannot plot my demise without worrying that you'll be discovered. A useful tool, that Keeper of Secrets, it's a shame you have no access to him." "But, but," Jolun stammered. "Relax, governor," Tuvaar said, "soon this bastion will be your own little domain. You've been allowed to live because you may yet be useful. After the army has secured the Darguuni province, the civilian clans housed here will begin spreading across the region and this bastion will return to being a retreat for the military and you'll have the honor of being the governor of a military post, if you so choose. I'll release you from your confinement then and only then." "Commander?" Madoc said from the doorway, "are you prepared for the march?" "Ah, Madoc," Tuvaar said, "I was just informing Jolun here of the situation. I suppose we should go and greet the assembled Lheshi of Darguun, neh?" "I've left a dozen of my best among the troops remaining here with orders to oversee the governor in our absence, Commander" Madoc said, "and Suturulaan of the Peacekeepers has been given the orders you issued this morning." "Very good," Tuvaar said. Madoc sneered at the governor as he toyed with the grip of his shortblade. After a pause he said, "Are you certain we may need this wretch, sir?" "Better to have him and not need him than need him and not have him, eh, Madoc?" Tuvaar said, his grin returning. Handing the paper he was writing on to Jolun he said, "these are your final orders before I leave with the others, governor. Carry them out to the letter or they will be your final orders, is that understood?"
goblin_pride 02-28-07, 08:34 AM	Daraak looked out over the parapet at the camps below. "Comfortable up here, Vaarsuva?" he growled. "Quite," Vaarsuva said, "and how are the accomodations down there in the mud?" "Wet and cold," Daraak said, "like a proper warlord's camp should be." "The glory of battle will come to you first at the base of these walls," Vaarsuva said, "if our little gathering of Lheshi goes badly, old friend. I envy you of that." "I always thought you were an idiot," Daraak said, "but you could've at least kept that little gem to yourself." The old bugbear snorted as his laughter echoed back from the dull granite walls of the pass. Vaarsuva grinned at Daraak and said, "Tuvaar's host needs the Elder's fortress so that they can deploy their engines if need be. Jaalan thought it would be better if you took the lower defenses. Those defenses held back an army under Barak'gor, I'm quite certain you're equally as capable." "Warlords," Jaalan said, "may I join you?" "Certainly," Daraak said, "Vaarsuva's braying is getting tiresome." Laughing, Vaarsuva said, "I was just thinking. The last time this many troops were here, there was an army pursuing them. I don't suppose we'll be lucky enough to see a repeat of that glorious day, will we?" "It is a possibility," Jaalan said, "but I was hoping we would repeat a much more ancient day. If we're lucky, the warlords of Darguun will reforge the empire here." "Not seeing yourself as a modern-day Dhakaan are you?" Vaarsuva asked. "Somehow I imagine she was prettier than you, Jaalan," Daraak said, sparking off a round of laughter from all three.
goblin_pride 02-28-07, 04:07 PM	Madoc rode alongside Tuvaar's wagon at the head of the column. Tuvaar was the first to speak, "Is the task in capable hands, old friend?" "Aye," Madoc said, "I would trust Taalen with my life, leaving him with this sort of dirty work will please him greatly." "No chance of betrayal behind us, I hope," Tuvaar said. "The persecutors of the bastion are loyal to you, commander," Madoc said, "I would imagine any attempt to seal it off against your return would draw a massacre without equal in modern times." After a few moments, Madoc asked, "How long have you known me, commander?" "All of my life, old friend," Tuvaar said, "Why do you ask?" "I take it then," Madoc said, "that you trust me?" "That's a foolish question, old friend," Tuvaar said, "you've been like my own father for the many years at the citadel. I was just a child when we first met." "Indeed," Madoc said, "but there are some things you should be told before we arrive at the Daanalor and I wanted to make sure that you trusted the one to tell you the tale." His curiosity piqued, Tuvaar said, "so what is the tale that needs such trust?" "When you were an infant," Madoc said, "Hatuur, Jaalan, Daraak, myself and a few others concocted a scheme of which you need to be aware. We traced many of the bloodlines of the empire in hopes that we could find a head fit to wear the crown that we've held in secret for so long. Of the hundreds of infants we found, you and Vaarsuva are the last remaining. The two of you share a common ancestor, a Dhakaan'tash wife of the Word-bearer himself. We brought all that we could to the citadel at Serenity in hopes that we could groom a suitable heir to the empire from those that we taught the ancient arts of war." "What are you getting at, Madoc?" Tuvaar asked. "I had hoped to be able to tell you under better circumstances, Commander," Madoc said, "Both you and Vaarsuva have a claim to the crown of the Lhesh Dhakaan. Yours is the stronger claim though. The Dhakaan'tash line crosses into your bloodline one hundred and fourteen seperate times. The one that truly matters is the mother of the last emperor, your bloodline from then on should have been Dhakaan'tash, but Kech Volaar carries more weight here in Western Darguun. It is a strong possibility that Jaalan will attempt to seat you on the throne of the Dhakaani in the pass that secured the Word-bearer's place in history."
goblin_pride 03-02-07, 04:25 PM	"Again," Tu'ulva said, holding the wooden practice sword before him. He raised the blade and charged at his opponent. Taalen raised his blade, blocked the other's, spun on his heel and laid a blow solidly on Tu'ulva's back. "Why do you torture yourself this way, sergeant?" He asked. "I've had many years in active service to develop my skills, I doubt you'll ever take me." "I cannot fight as well as some of the goblins under me," Tu'ulva said, "And that is unforgivable. Again." Another foolish charge, Taalen rolled to the right, extending his arm and planting his wooden blade on the back of the older goblin's thighs, causing him to drop to the sand of the practice floor. "You're beating yourself bloody squaring off against me." Taalen said. "Wouldn't it be wiser to spend your time with one of the regular instructors?" "I cannot do that." Tu'ulva said, "If the younger soldiers saw that I was as incompetent with the blade as I am, they would lose confidence with their leaders. In order to retain their confidence, I'm forced to limit my training to other officers. Again." Tu'ulva rushed again, blade held too high to defend himself. Taalen dropped to one knee and brought his practice blade up hard into the older goblin's abdomen, knocking the wind out of him. "That would've been a fatal wound, sergeant, I think it's time for me to speak and for you to listen." Laying on his back in the sand, Tu'ulva said, "demote me, execute me, send me back to the villages, it doesn't matter, I am no sergeant or honorable brother." "Listen to yourself," Taalen said, "you claim that you have no value because you cannot use a sword as well as a master of the shortblade? You've beaten yourself bloody trying to overcome a captain that has been using his shortblade for the last fifteen years." Wiping his face with a towel, Taalen stood over the older goblin and continued, "you were made sergeant because you believe in the empire, you are an honorable brother. Your skills with the bow and spear are almost good enough to wear the master's mark, yet you focus on the sword? Is that mark on your cheek so distatseful to you that you would rather have another? You were made sergeant because you are aware that the goblins under you will look to you to inspire confidence. There is far more to being Daru'khesh than swordplay, my friend." "I was named honorable because I understand morale?" Tu'ulva asked. "You're beginning to comprehend, I think," Taalen said. "Leaders aren't always those in the front rank wielding the weapons, more often they're the ones that can understand why their troops might break and know how to prevent that. You have been guarding the farms of that village of yours long enough that you can keep younglings fighting in a long campaign by reminding them of their homes. They'll fight and die for you because you are just like the old Daru'khesh that commanded the guards of the fields in their home villages. You are a connection to home for them and they will live die and kill to keep that alive in their memory." "I never considered that," Tu'ulva said. "No," Taalen said, "you didn't. And neither did the countless number of eyes that are watching from the gallery now." Turning towards the shadowed reviwing stands above, Taalen said, "I know you're watching from the shadows, you may as well come closer so that you don't have to strain to hear." As the tattooed faces of the new sergeants began to appear from the shadows of the gallery, Taalen continued, speaking to them all, "No one expects you to stand alone against the armies of the outlanders. You are sergeants of the army and brothers of the Daru'khesh, the Elo'khesh will look to you for strength and support. No one expects you to single-handedly win battles, no one expects you to build the empire yourself. Some of you are master builders and when the empire grows again, you will be needed. Some of you are master archers and when the armies clash, your arrows will weaken the enemy's resolve and thin their ranks. Some of you are masters of the spear or sword, in the battles to come, you will see the goblins you teach fight and die alongside you. Some of you are tacticians, for you the task is daunting, you will send many of us to our graves with the plans you lay. Not one of you stands alone, you are a part of an army and that army is a part of an empire and that is unbreakable." Taalen paused for a moment, thinking how best to motivate the goblins in the gallery and continued, "This day, this goblin threw himself at a wall he could not breach. Who will help him to learn the sword?" Scanning the crowd, Taalen looked for a sign he had reached them. A voice rose from the murmuring crowd, "I will, captain." "There," Taalen said, "is the strength of the empire. When a brother skilled in the blade offers to teach an honorable brother to wield his weapon better, the value of the words of the Dhakaan are proven. Teach each other, learn from each other, there is no shame in it, the shame lies in not doing so." Turning to help Tu'ulva up from the sand Taalen said quietly, "There, honorable brother, is your strength. I bet you didn't know you could forge the sergeants of this army into one cohesive unit."
goblin_pride 03-02-07, 06:47 PM	Have you got enough material to draw from for the Dhakaani in your game or should I continue? In the words of the great Dhakaani Duur'kala, Aarlo Guuthrie, "I'm not tired....or proud*." *from the great dirge Aalice's resturant. Yes, I'm freakin' old, leave me alone.
Darth Syntax 03-02-07, 07:15 PM	A liking of such music is not an actual sign of age . . . says the recent collage graduate who is listening to Bach and the Dubliners as we speak (although not at the same time, that would get a wee bit confusing) -- Anyway, I apologize for the delay in the writing system, but I am having a bit of trouble getting an image together than dosen't look like it was drawn by a blind orc with epilepsy. With real paper and a nice calligraphy pen I can do an excellent job, but with tablet and photoshop, well . . .yeesh. In moderately related news I have been considering begining a series of posts on Dhakaani political philosophy, economics, and social customs, as I imagined them . If there is any topic that you, oh readers of this thread, would like to read about (so that we may begin to disagree as is customary in such discussions) please let me know.
Darth Syntax 03-02-07, 10:03 PM	The Origin of Tea drinking and the Tea House Although the consumption of tea had always been popular in the Brey River Valley in the pre-Dhakaani period, the widespread consumption of the beverage as a social phenomenon seems to have been a product of the expanding civil service and of the increased emphasis on civic virtue and political awareness. Initially, civil servants began drinking tea in larger and larger quantities because of its stimulant properties. This allowed them to continue working without the need for costly breaks for rest and recuperation. Additionally, sense the consumption of wine and other alcoholic beverages was generally frowned upon while actively working for the government, tea drinking became more and more popular. With the large number of civil servants now developing a taste for tea, it became quite profitable for enterprising people to set up tea houses and the like near public districts where they were guaranteed to have a steady supply of patrons, all of whom where lightly addicted to the hot infused beverage. Within short order, these tea houses became the favored haunts of many civil servants as well as anyone interested in hearing about even the most mundane workings of the state. It was inevitable, it seems, that the presence of a relaxed atmosphere and an endless flow of caffeinated drink led to the tea houses becoming de facto public forums for the discussion of politics and civic issues. Within sixty years of the founding of the empire, tea houses where a ubiquitous fixture in Dhakaani cities and towns, and considered by some to be nearly as indispensable as the law courts. The tea house had become a social institution. With the ever-increasing popularity of tea consumption, demand increased for new kinds of tea other than the traditional red, amber and green teas (these would correspond to black, oolong, and green tea respectively). Blending various other flavors into the tea leaves became common practice, and eventually, a whole set of customs and practices developed around the consumption of tea. Like wine, tea was paired with foods, and particularly astringent or tannic teas were often consumed before and after meals, so as to cleanse the palate. Certain varieties of tea were also traditionally drunk at different times of the day, further complicating the tea culture of the Empire. Eventually a specialized profession of tea appraisers, blenders, and experts arose. An very incomplete lists of traditional Dhakaani teas and their consumption Red Silk Tea: a “red” tea blended with citrus oil, vanilla, and mallow blossoms. Traditionally a morning and evening tea. Real world counterpart: Cream Earl Grey Unfurling Hand Tea: a green tea blended with aromatic flowers. An all occasion tea, but often consumed at social occasions. Real world counterpart: Jasmine Pearl Tea Stone Tea: a strong, rolled green tea, often consumed before and after meals or with spicy foods. Real world counterpart: Gunpowder green tea. Burning Tea: a red, smoked tea, often consumed in the evening or with “earthy” foods. Real world counterpart: Lapsang Suchon Spice Tea: a red tea with aromatic spices, considered to be an evening tea. Real World counterpart: unsweetened, milkless chai tea Golden Oil: a very high quality amber tea. Real world counterpart: any good quality oolong tea
Darth Syntax 03-03-07, 12:07 AM	Ok, so after much ado and also several cups of Unfurling Hand tea, I offer up the OHD writing system. I apologize for the shakiness of the writing, for as I said, I am not used to doing this sort of thing in photoshop. http://farm1.static.flickr.com/158/408434974_4ec4ad9e70_b.jpg the letters are presented with their IPA (international phonetic alphabet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA)) equivalents above them. enjoy
goblin_pride 03-04-07, 07:50 PM	"NO, NO, NO," Madoc shouted, "I want the facings of the towers smooth. I don't want any living creature to be able to find handhold on these facings. Pull down the facing planks, plane them smooth, lacquer them and put them back up. And if I see a gap anywhere in that facing I'll have your hide striped to match, sergeant." "you seem to be having a ....... busy day, Madoc," Longshanks said, "I hardly think you can fault the builders though, you did say yesterday that you wanted the towers up quickly." "I expected them to do it correctly the first time," Madoc said, "This is to be first camp of an Imperial audience that the other warlords and generals of Darguun see, I expect it to demonstrate the greatness of the Empire." "You want your camp to outshine the towers of the main keep?" Longshanks asked. "That seems a bit odd, old friend, won't that make the Warlords look rather lazy in their preparations?" "Not at all," Madoc said, "but if the others decide they don't like what they hear, this fortification has to hold them pinned in the valley. I want these towers to be unassaultable. The smooth laquered facings would prove near impossible for me and mine to assault, I want to offer that sad prospect to any others that would look to tear down this position in their attempt to escape." "You're spoiling for a fight, my old friend," Longshanks said, "I can see the twinkle in that old eye of yours. Even Daraak isn't as certain that we'll be forced to fight." "Daraak's troops are to be the hammer," Madoc said, "This sad string of fortresses is to be his anvil. I would make it as strong as possible to force the enemy back on him and his host." "You've got captains you trust in each of the posts of Kethet's fence, my friend," Longshanks said, "and I've got riders in number in each as well as the outward patrols. We'll have them pinned in place as soon as they enter. You worry too much that you'll fail. But then again, you've never been confident when defending. You're far better on the offensive, more confident, like one of the generals of old." "Did you just compare me to one of the ancient heroes?" Madoc asked. "You could've at least waited until after I was buried for that. But you are right, I would prefer the offensive. Hatuur was always better on the defensive, I could use his insight right now." "Have you given any thought to his replacement," Longshanks said, "or will you continue doing the tasks of three goblins for the remainder of your life?" "I made Taalen my command captain while the warlords and Council consider promoting him to general," Madoc said, "and I left him at the Citadel with the task of building a second army there while we hold this position. If the Council accepts him, we will find another general and his army when we finally break from hiding and march across the face of Darguun." "Do you expect me to believe, old friend," Longshanks said, "that you'll stop the march of the armies at the borders of Darguun?"
goblin_pride 03-05-07, 12:26 AM	"I apologize, your majesty," Jaalan said, "Madoc was correct to tell you of the coming events, I was incorrect in hiding this matter from you for so long." "Did you ever think, Daraak," Vaarsuva said, "that you would hear a Duur'kala apologize to anyone?" "Never," Daraak said, "but I suppose things are hardly as they have been in the past now, I would imagine we'll be seeing alot more of things we have never imagined." "Are you two having fun?" Tuvaar asked. "I realize I prodded you a bit when this Duur'kala named you warlords, but this is a bit different, I should think. An emperor's crown hasn't been worn by any Dhakaani in over four millenia and he wants to put the accursed thing on my head." "That'll never work," Vaarsuva said, "your head's not big enough to wear a crown. It'll just slip down around your neck and look like a really ugly gorget." Both warlords burst out laughing at the thought of it. "Think of it this way, those over-sized ears of yours might actually prove useful now." "I'm being serious, you two," Tuvaar said, "this is not something to joke about. Once that crown is placed on a head, it can't be undone. If we do this as Jaalan planned, we are tied to this path and it can't be altered this side of the grave. I am not capable of wearing that crown, it's more responsibility than I can bear." "Nonsense," Daraak said, "I've seen you commanding your troops, all you need to do is think of the empire's armies as your army. The Lhesh Dhakaan is nothing more than the Dhakaani warlord, first among the warlords. It's no different than commanding the Citadel, little brother, do you think yourself better than others when you give orders to the other generals at home? You rose to the rank of general on your own, Tuvaar. The command of the Citadel of Jataan the Serene was a rank you earned by your own merit. The troops under your command have absolute faith in your abilities. Even if Vaarsuva disagrees, I would consider it an honor to bend my knee to you and swear the oath to serve you as my emperor." "While we may joke at your sudden rise to prominence," Vaarsuva said, "I agree with Daraak. I would rather bend my knee to you as my emperor than any of the others that Jaalan has arranged for us to meet with in the coming days. You have earned respect among all the troops of the Citadel, not one of them would question your fitness to rule. I would consider it a great honor to carry your banner alongside mine in the coming war, my brother." "It would seem my betters want me to ascend the Imperial throne," Tuvaar said, "Get off the floor Duur'kala, you have nothing for which to apologize. Send someone to fetch my Hound and my Cut-thoat, we have plans to make and I need the best of my generals here."
Aksapriya 03-05-07, 11:03 AM	I find this Thread very interressant. But I have a small, realy small problem with the Goblin Empire : 11 000 years is quite a long duration for an empire, we have no known example in the real world. So it's diffcult to imagine how it keeps working so long... We know that goblins are war minded people. So who were their enemies ? Barbarian Orcs ? It doesn't take 1 000 years for USA to conquer North America... What stopped Gobelins from conquering Khorvaire ? And what prevented them from internal destruction ?
Darth Syntax 03-05-07, 02:16 PM	Somewhere in the vastness of the thread, there is a discussion of this issue, although no consensus was reached; ideas were brought forth. I argue for a much smaller duration of the actual Dhakaani empire, 2500-3000 years immediately prior to the Daelkyr wars, with effective collapse within 30 years of the end of said wars. The reason for the 11,000 year number then come about due to modern historians taking the rhetorical device of saying "10,000 years" literally. Others, like my esteemed colleague goblin_pride, argue for a longer time span but for a less centralized state than I envision, which helps to explain things. -- On Enemies My version of the Empire at it's height did not cover the whole of the continent, only about a half. They controlled all of what is now Breland, Zilargo, and Darguun, the southern halves of Thrane and Cyre, bits of southern Aundair, and the eastern third of Droaam. This allows for plenty of room for rivals, enemies, and the like. In what in now Droaam and the Shadow Marches, the client state of Kesh held some power, but it was largely under the thumb of the Empire. In South and Western Karrnath, the Yimyataaq (a goblinoid people) had a successful culture and often was in a state of war (usually cold, but with occasional battles) with the Empire. The Yimyataaq viewed the Dhakaani as impious, intemperate, immoral, and decadent, and viewed it as their sacred duty to bring their moral order on the "southern blasphemers". The Dhakaani considered the Yimyataaq to be superstitious, unclean (the only bathed once a week or so, as opposed to the usual daily practice in the Empire), unethical, irrational, barbarians. I was a conflict of two highly lawful states (LN I suppose) over what constituted proper civil order. Well that and the Dhakaani wanted access to the fine quality salmon from the northern waters, but they never had the heart to commit fully to conquest of the far north. It was just too far to stretch the empire, and it would take forever to ship tea, wine, and olive oil all that way. -- In my vision of the Empire, the same force that prevented the Empire form collapse was responsible for preventing them from conquering the whole continent and beyond. The Empire was so focused on creating a stable and harmonious society, that is did not have the time or the resources to wage lengthy wars for no other purpose than glory and the like. Now, when the Empire did go to war, it was almost always to secure more resources (such as the ore from Kesh) for the ever growing population. Defensive wars were far more common than offensive ones, such as the long running war against the ancestors of the Valenar.
goblin_pride 03-05-07, 09:12 PM	In my vision of the empire, war was part of the glue that held the empire together for it's 10,000 year history. The empire's borders, both internal and external were constantly changing as fights occurred with both foreign enemies and domestic. If a long period of peace lasted for more than a generation or so, it was heralded by the Duur'kala as a golden age. One of the strengths of the empire was that it could withstand civil wars between it's own states without disravelling the entire empire. The geographic span of the empire was slightly larger in my model, because at the Imperial frontiers there were quite a few autonomous client-states that held their own law, ruled their own lands and pretty much just served as a buffer against the unconquered territory beyond. The modern kingdoms covered would be all of Droaam, Breland, Darguun, Zilargo, The Eldeen Reaches, the western portions of Aundair, the southern 2/3 of Cyre and only a slight presence on the western edge of the Talenta Plains. These frontier territories were an open, active theatre of war for most of the rule of the empire due to the nature of the freedom under Dhakaani rule.
goblin_pride 03-06-07, 02:08 AM	Madoc set the bowl of rice on the table and picked up the map of the new Darguun. "So this is the new empire," he said, looking at the borders freshly drawn on the parchment. "Empress preserve me if this is the wrong course of action," he said. "You have your doubts?" Longshanks asked. "I was thinking aloud," Madoc said, "nothing more. I thought you had gone off to bed like the others." "I had another matter I wanted to discuss," Longshanks said, "if you don't mind." "What is it?" Madoc asked, putting down the map. "I had wished to take a wife," Longshanks said, "but her father is no longer alive to give his consent. I was wondering if you could tell me how to go about securing permisssion from her clan." "Yuni is yours if you would like it," Madoc said, "as her father's brother and an elder in her clan, I give you permission. Although her children will be property of the Daru'khesh, that is my one condition." "Agreed," Longshanks said, "but how did you know?" "Did you forget that nothing in the Citadel escapes the gaze of my eyes," Madoc said, "or did you think the title "Keeper of Secrets" was merely an honorific? I knew of the affection between the two of you, that is why I sent her to Breland before killing her father." "Ah," Longshanks said, "it was you. You realize of course that by telling me that you've given me the means to destroy you." "I am aware," Madoc said, "but you need me as much now as you did before. The role I've played thus far is minor compared to the role I'll play in the future of our new empire. I need for Yuni to find her adopted brother so that I might have an ally as potent as Hatuur was. If nothing else, your children with her might also prove capable, but I fear that I will not live long enough to see them rise to power." "You don't find Taalen suitable?" Longshanks asked. "Taalen is a captain," Madoc said, "perhaps even a general. Give him a problem to solve on a battlefield and he will give you a solution. Show him troops with low morale and he will rally you a fanatical force to hurl at your enemies. He would be excellent to follow in my footsteps as a military leader, but in matters of politics, he is as suitable an heir as this chair. No, I think I will need another." "Have you considered sending Taalen out among the goblins of the Ghaal'dar to usurp their population away to the Khesh'dar?" Longshanks asked. "Jaalan considered that when we made these plans," Madoc said, "if Haruuc agrees to ally himself to the Imperial throne, we will erode the support of his goblin clans by bringing them back into the imperial fold. As members of the Khesh'dar council, they will see their voice heard in the grand council and it will make them bold. You can expect that Lhesh Haruuc will not sit long on his warlord's throne even if he does ally with us. Taalen will be key in that action, as the leader of the Imperial troops in Rhukaan Draal." "Too many plots," Longshanks said, "too many plans. I can see why you need an heir that can keep them all straight. I will do my best to give you a suitable selection to choose from, but you must do me the coutesy to stay alive long enough to make the choice." "I will do as I can," Madoc said, "but I cannot promise anything."
goblin_pride 03-06-07, 08:26 AM	Taalen stood on the balcony overlooking the training court, watching the pair squaring off on the sand floor below. A smile crept across his face as the older goblin overtook the younger of the pair. "Well done, sergeant Tu'ulva," he shouted, "I'll see you make captain before long, eh?" "Why do you encourage the levies, Captain?" Jolun asked. "You know as well as I do that they'll never see the battlefield. They're cursed to live out their days here guarding an empty fortress while the real troops fight the battles and hoard the glory." "So certain are you of things you do not know," Taalen said, "Governor?" "Quite," Jolun said, "the levies are here for the protection of the Citadel, I have Tuvaar's assurance of it." "His Imperial majesty has changed his mind," Taalen said, "the levies are to be fully trained and ready to march with the army within the end of the month or my head will find it's way onto a spike over the gates of the Citadel. Peacekeepers will defend the Citadel, the city proper and the council quarters, with the Mute guarding and defending the Imperial precincts at the top. I am to oversee the training of the levies, the preparations of the Peacekeeper commanders and accept the oaths of four new guards for the Mute before I rejoin the army at the head of these levies that you seem to detest." "Imperial majesty? What are you babbling about?" Jolun asked. "Tuvaar Kech Volaar was named Lhesh Dhakaan," Taalen said, "by the warlords Vaarsuva and Daraak and oaths were accepted by his Imperial majesty from the generals Madoc, Arkhuul the Longshanks, Zalmua of the Paluur'uru, Gaarvan of the Snowwalkers and a few minor generals from clans outside the Citadel. I received word last night that I am to escort you and the advocates of the Khesh'dar council to the camp at the Daanalor so you can swear your oaths of allegiance to his imperial majesty before he has his audience with the warlords of the other tribes. That is, unless you wish to dispute his claim to the throne, in which case I am to bring only your head, Governor." "When do we leave," Jolun asked, "or did you plan not to tell me?" "Quite the contrary, Governor," Taalen said, "I will be leaving at sunset. You have the honor of making the preparations for the journey and notifying all the leaders on this list that their presence is required." Taalen held the list out for Jolun. "If any on that list are not prepared for travel when I leave, I'm am to leave your body here and take only your head, by orders of Lhesh Vaarsuva. It would seem you have work to do, Governor. I would be about the task rather quickly, if I were you." "It will be done, Captain," Jolun said, tucking the list into the folds of his tunic and walking towards the door. "It's general, actually, Governor," Taalen said, "and that list is a copy, there were two in the dispatch. I was warned you might try to do something to make me look foolish."
Nerdicus 03-07-07, 12:19 PM	It doesn't take 1 000 years for USA to conquer North America........ :noway: Um.....mayhaps you have been gone for awhile...or maybe I have been gone for awhile, but last I checked Canada was still unconquered by it's southern neighbors.... Canada still stands! :dancin:
goblin_pride 03-07-07, 09:08 PM	It doesn't take 1 000 years for USA to conquer North America... They haven't done it yet. I'm guessing by your spelling of Goblin that you're French*, so let me try to explain a little bit about Les Etats Unite that most americans aren't even aware of. The United States is chock full of little countries that the American people don't even realize are there. The Native Americans weren't actually a conquered people in that respect, many of them live on reservations that are sovereign territories within the borders of the United States. They use US currency, they get the benefits of US citizenship, but in reality, they are resident aliens in the United States. It's that sort of relationship the Dhakaani had with the orcish states. By leaving the orcish states under orcish kings, the Dhakaani maintained a peace that was puncuated by violent clashes periodically. It was a somewhat sybiotic relationship, the orc wars helped to maintain the war readiness of the empire because there was always a bit of hostility simmering there, just under the surface. The Orcs didn't have to worry about being conquered by an outside force because they technically already were, so their armies would have plenty of free time to forment rebellion. *I realize that French is rather a widely-spoken language, but based on your comment I made the assumption that you're not French-Canadian. My explanation is geared towards someone not from the North American continent or not informed on the history of the Native American people. Please don't take my tone as demeaning in any way, the vast majority of americans aren't even aware of the history of it.
Darth Syntax 03-07-07, 09:26 PM	That's sort of how I imagine the Dhakaani relations with the client state of Kesh, although the Keshites were about 1/3 goblinoid in addition to the orcs. They were barbarians (in a more "Greek" sense of the word), they were just barbarians that had useful metal resources which the Empire liked to to use, but no one wanted to live in Kesh. Being sent off to administer the "Western Barbarians" was effectively a form of exile so no one wanted the job. There was only limited access to the civilized amenities of the Empire proper and then one had to deal with the unpleasant and backwards locals. Low grade military actions were fairly common in Kesh, but the generally fractious nature of the place made it very difficult for the Keshites to kick out their Dhakaani overlords. Also, the military attentions of the Empire were focued more to the north and east in my version of events. First to the Yimyaataq and the perpetual state of hostilities (even in the absence of open warfare) that existed between them. Then to the east, where the proto-Valenar were threating the boarders of the Empire and posing a much more aggressive and organized threat. The south-eastern Front is why there are so many Dhakaani ruins in what is now Darguun, it was the province that was closest to the Valenar and so needed to be heavily defended. -- On an unrelated note, and I do apologize for the shamelessness here, any comments on the OHD writing system? Good, bad, indifferent, utterly horrible you crazy person, I welcome any comments. Thankyou for your time
goblin_pride 03-07-07, 09:33 PM	On an unrelated note, and I do apologize for the shamelessness here, any comments on the OHD writing system? Good, bad, indifferent, utterly horrible you crazy person, I welcome any comments. It's pretty good, but it took relearning the basics of writing to be able to understand the IPA symbols. I'm still not sure I completely understand it.
Darth Syntax 03-07-07, 09:54 PM	Ah, that I can understand. I shall attempt to explain the symbols as best I can. In most cases, the symbols are pretty much what you would expect, but some are a bit different than in English. Some of the IPA symbols don't like to show up on fora/forums (whichever you prefer) so I'll try to describe the symbols as best I can, so you lovely people don't have to go and learn X-SAMPA (the IPA for Internet forums as well) Vowels: far more like the vowel sound in Latin (or Spanish) than English [i] : more like the vowel in "beet" [e] : a bit more like the vowel in "hay" but without the y-ish sound at the end [a]: like in "father" [o] : more like "boat" but without the w-ish sound at the end [u] : like the sound in "moo" Consonants [tl]: like the tl in Aztec words "atlatl" [c] : sounds similar to the "ch" in church, but is made with the middle of the tongue [funny looking J]: like the "j" in "jail" but the sound is made like <c> [j]: like "j" in "Bjorn" or the "y" in "yellow" [θ]: "th" in "thing" [đ]: "th" in "that" [integral sign or long 's']: "sh" as in "shoot" [cursiveish 'z'] : like "j" sounds in French, or as in "genre" (which is also French) [n with a tail] : its a retroflex n, so its like making an 'n' sound with your tongue curled back. [r] : is trilled like in Spanish, Italian, and a lot of other languages -- Hopefully that might help clear some things up (or confuse you more, we're offering a two for the price of one deal today)
goblin_pride 03-07-07, 09:55 PM	Also, the military attentions of the Empire were focued more to the north and east in my version of events. The Valenar to the Southeast were a major concern and explain the presence of the Dhakaani wolves in Darguun. Wolves are not native to Darguun, yet all the Dhakaani remnants have wolfriders among their number because the clans that moved onto the border along the Valenar front all brought their prized mounts with them. It was a bit odd for the Dhakaani generals to accept initially, but the mobility of the goblin wolfriders was the best defense against the Valenar. The highly mobile nature of the war with the Valenar meant that fixed formations and static defenses were utterly useless. The war between Wolf and Horse was long and costly. Many wolves died hunting the Horse but in the end the Horse was driven back into the sea. The Wolf lives for the hunt and his packs ensure that the Horse can never return.
Darth Syntax 03-07-07, 10:00 PM	Ah thats right, you kept the wolf bit, I'd forgotten than. I prefer my Dhakaani goblins on elephants or chariots.
goblin_pride 03-07-07, 10:08 PM	I prefer my Dhakaani goblins on elephants or chariots. I gave the elephants to the bugbears. A bugbear mahuut driving a war elephant through an enemy army's ranks was just too delicious an image. The light cavalry of the empire was borne on the back of the wolf, but the heavy cavalry was more like a walking fortress, elephants driven by bugbears with howdahs full of goblin archers on their backs.
Darth Syntax 03-07-07, 10:15 PM	Ah, you have cavalry, that explains it. The best mine have got are chariots and mounted infantry (proper dragoons), the Dhakaani were not all that comfortable with fighting or horseback. The reason I generally put goblins atop the elephants is that you can get several of them up there, along with light artillery. Also a goblin mahout is going to be a much harder target to hit than a bugbear. Oh the joy of mobile siege platforms.
goblin_pride 03-07-07, 10:28 PM	I shy away from the goblins when it comes to the elephants. Something about elephants and three foot tall handlers evokes images of an elephant freaking out over a mouse. Bugbears needed a little something special and I thought it would be a perfect fit, the gentle giants and their elephants. Both can be extremely patient and docile until they're roused then all Khyber breaks loose. Besides, I thought the bugbears would fall in love with a creature that could walk up and bash down walls and gates with it's head. It fit with the image of the more pastoral bugbears that they would keep beasts of burden that served them as well in warfare as peace. I'm not completely discounting goblins handling the great beasts, but as a cultural norm, I prefer bugbears to have a preference for them.
Darth Syntax 03-07-07, 10:38 PM	I see your point. And I really can see the bugbears (where I again I find myself in agreement with you regarding their temperament) working with the elephants during the building of roads and other engineering projects in the Empire. I just hadn't really considered the concept of a mounted bugbear. In war, I have been seeing the bugbears being used as heavy infantry mostly, or in artillery crews (moving around cannon is a job well suited for such strength).
goblin_pride 03-07-07, 11:15 PM	In war, I have been seeing the bugbears being used as heavy infantry mostly, or in artillery crews (moving around cannon is a job well suited for such strength). In the role moving heavy equipment like this, I can see the bugbears hooking up beasts of burden that scare most of the other goblinoids. Oxen, elephants and tribex fit well with the bugbears due to their size and the calm personalities of the bugbear handlers. Heavy infantry is a role defined by the needs of the army and all races have their own, the bugbears are just better suited to it.
Darth Syntax 03-08-07, 02:00 AM	For some reason, the image of uhtgaolann (goblin) heavy infantry is comically absurd. I have always pictured them as doing the artillery calculations, sniping, raged combat, and general intelligence gathering on the field. I just can't help but laugh at the image of a 4 foot tall, skinny little guy in heavy armor. I also have trouble take gnomes seriously in heavy armor, in a nice suit on the other hand, I'll be shaking in my proverbial boots. Halflings in heavy armor don't phase me though, who knew?
goblin_pride 03-09-07, 05:01 PM	For some reason, the image of uhtgaolann (goblin) heavy infantry is comically absurd. Why the hate, Darth? Were you abused by the goblins as a child or something? Or was it that you just weren't as good at playing Hunter and Prey? Seriously though, even in my game, the goblin equivalent of heavy infantry wouldn't be considered heavy infantry, they wear a medium armor and carry spears so they can form up into spear and pike hedges.
Darth Syntax 03-09-07, 05:25 PM	No, I don't hate the idea at all. I just keep seeing this goblin looking somewhat confused and annoyed by being put in all that armor. He is not happy with having his movement so restricted. Medium armor however, perfectly fine. Believe me, I like goblins. They just appear uncomfortable in lots of metal.
goblin_pride 03-09-07, 05:45 PM	That's the reason why I make so many of the goblins light cavalry and infiltrators. Goblins are very movement oriented and heavy armor isn't comfortable to them. Even in their history, the Dhakaani goblins make use of feints and false retreats more often than the other goblinoids, falling back only to turn and fight once an enemy has found itself surrounded by the flanks that didn't "break". Among the goblins of the military, there is no greater honor than playing rabbit or infiltrating an enemy's defenses.
goblin_pride 03-09-07, 06:24 PM	On the topic of infiltration: Goblin infiltrators can be roughly characterized into thre broad categories although a given trooper will blend more than one style in hopes that it will make him more useful. The adopter, the becomer or the spy chooses a role to play and literally becomes the person that fits the story he's telling. Most of the spies of the Silent clans will appear completely harmless at first glance, but beneath that quiet demeanor he's listening to every word you say and passing that information on to the command to interpret and evaluate it's usefulness. The eyes and ears of the silent clans try to gain insight and information at all costs, because the useless trivia they harvest might be of use in the future. The Cut-throat is a trained killer, most adept at getting themselves within knife range of an enemy whose death is needed. They'll train hard all of their lives to guarantee that when the time comes no one will see the lone knife hiding in the shadows behind an important enemy. Being called a Cut-throat among the other races might be insulting, but to a goblin it is a high honor. A living Cut-throat is a goblin that did his duty and managed to somehow get himself back out without dying, a hero among those trained to sneak in and kill without mercy. The reavers are the infiltrators trained to operate in numbers. A force of reavers will find dozens of ways to sneak into an enemy fortification and then sneak in with as many as they can to eat up an enemy's defense from the inside. The bugbears and hobgoblins outside the walls will draw the defenders' attention until it's too late to protect themselves from the goblins intent on opening the gates and catching the defenders by surprise.
goblin_pride 03-12-07, 02:47 AM	Taalen looked out over the fortifications below. He thought to himself, was this what the followers of the Word-bearer felt when they laid the defense of the Daanalor so many centuries ago? "Impressive, isn't it?" Madoc asked. "The generals of the Razorcrown wars never built the fortresses here that we're standing on, but I think they would be proud of these defenses built in honor of their victory here." "It is something to behold, General," Taalen said. "You don't need to call me general anymore, my friend," Madoc said, "you've earned a place at my side as an equal. As a gift, I'm giving you my third company infiltrators and my second and sixth company light infantry. Hopefully they'll be able to speed the process of turning your levies into an army." "I thank you, my friend," Taalen said, "I have six companies well on the way to fully trained and another four, perhaps five that could serve as a reserve inside a month. I do have a question for you though." "A question," Madoc said, "You?" "Yes," Taalen said, "try not to sound so surprised. I was referring to a sergeant I found in the levies. He's not the most proficient in arms, but I think he'd be an excellent captain. I wonder, would you consider promoting a goblin with less than perfect martial skills if his value to the morale of your army would be the only benefit?" "Does he have any other value, aside from morale?" Madoc asked. "Have you tested him for merit as a planner? Builder? Archer? Blade-brother? Spear-carrier? Herder? Farmer, perhaps?" "No," Taalen said, "he hasn't any ability with the blade or bow, but when you left for this place, you took the best of the teachers of the tactician's art with you. I've no one to test him for merit. He is capable with the spear, but not a master in skill." "An honorable brother from the villages, was he?" Madoc asked. "I would say that if he shows no mastery of any of the skills of war, the best you could do is to ensure his death in training and rally your army around his memory. It is for this purpose that so many of the honorable brothers are elevated in the levies, my friend. But if it would be of service to you, my tacticians are at your disposal, you may take any of my training company's officers with you to speed the process of raising your forces. I'll have them accompany you back to the Citadel when you go. They're useless to me here anyway, better they should be there raising more companies to the imperial banner." "I thank you," Taalen said, "general. I brought with me the first and second companies that are battle ready from the levies, they're only archers, but they should serve you well down there on Kethet's fence. Call them my gift to you." "I'm beginning to think you do understand politics," Madoc said, "to give me your only two ready companies does me a great honor. I thank you. We should go, the emperor will wish to bestow on you his gifts as well, general."
Romulus LoneWolf 03-12-07, 11:23 PM	About the implausibility of a continuous 11,000 year Empire, I thought about something.. What if that period of time didn't involve a single, continuous Dhakaani Empire, but instead a succession of Goblinoid Empires and Dynasties? Much like real-world Egyptian and Chinese ancient history, the Goblinoids of Khorvaire may have had numerous empires rise and fall over the length of their history, intersparsed with periods of tribal warfare and warring nation-states, until the Daelkyr Invasion finally shattered the Goblinoids' power-base beyond the point where they could easily rebuild their civilisation until the Humans first arrived. ...It would certainly explain why the Dhakaani clans of modern Darguun maintain their old traditions; as far as they're concerned, the Dhakaani Empire isn't dead. It's just resting. Edit: Just read the Darguun entry in the ECS, and it confirms my theory: "Over the course of thousands of years a host of goblinoid nations rose and fell."
Darth Syntax 03-13-07, 12:47 AM	Thats, more or less, how I have been viewing things. In my estimation, goblinoid civilization (as marked by the use of writing) occurred at a much earlier developmental stage; in the period between the late stone age and early bronze age. Most of the great powers of goblinoid civilization were iron age-type peoples, and due to constant warfare and the like, stayed in this state for some time. The Dhakaani were simply one of many goblinoid states that existed over time, although they were arguably one of the most stable and advanced. They also had the unfortunate luck to be one of the great powers when the Daelkyr came, and their fall had wide ranging effects. The Dhakaani proper rose to power following the collapse of the previous goblinoid empire. The interim was a bloody 300 year period of warfare, barbarism, and general unpleasantness. The new empire, which began as a city-state, broke all historical ties with its predecessors claiming that such empires were built on nothing but folly and held together with little more than personal magnetism and fear. Instead, the proceeded to create an oligarchical state based on the absolute rule of law. And it worked, for 3500 odd years. As to the modern Dhakaani, I personally do not see them as being the unbroken cultural descendants of the Imperial people. For most of the last 9,000 years they knew very little about the empire, and developed a totally different sort of culture. With the rise of humanity, some of the goblinoid groups began to look to their ancient past as a means of unifying against the humans and rediscovered the Dhakaani. The groups that most strongly embraced this lost empire were those who discovered that their languages were in fact descended from OHD. These would become the groups known today as the Dhakaani clans. They are still learning about their past, the centuries have not been kind to them and much has been irrevocably lost, but the image of a golden age of goblinoid civilization that was far more advanced than the Galifarans is intoxicating. The Ghaal'dar have a very hard time with the image of the lost empire, as it doesn't serve their political ends. Their whole culture is decidedly post-Imperial in structure, and is based on blood oaths, land rights, and family bonds. Haaruc is a product of his culture, he wants kingship, he wants personal power, and he wants land; those who wish to bring even a portion of the Dhakaani civilization back from the grave generally abhor the notion of hereditary rule, preferring to be lead by the noble in mind and action, rather than the noble in blood. It's a retelling of a very old conflict indeed, the modern Dhakaani are putting forward a legalistic/rational model of political power, the Ghaal'dar are promoting a hereditary/traditionalist model. Once again, the great gobinoid powers fight over the proper means of establishing order.
goblin_pride 03-13-07, 02:50 AM	My take on it was that the Dhakaani empire was a series of dynasties tied, very loosely at times, to the original bloodlines of the warlords unified by the teachings of the great Dhakaan. Hereditary rulership did occur, but for the most part land, titles and rulership were passed through merit rather than bloodline. The exceptions would've been when multiple goblinoids claimed title or rulership based on equal standing, then the bloodlines would come heavily into play. Additionally, each province or client-state within the empire would have it's own laws, rulers and traditions. These competing warlords could prove to be another imperial dynasty if the proper conditions happen to be met. I've used the bloodline of Tuvaar Kech Volaar* heavily in the fluff text pieces in this thread because he was a key figure in the backstory of the earlier incarnation of Darguun. The Razorcrown wars between the Kech Volaar and the Rhukaan'tash was one series of wars in a long-standing fued between the opposing factions of eastern and western Darguun in the period just before the golden age of the empire. It was the cooperation between the races under the first Tuvaar that is used as a model of the perfect empire to the Dhakaani of the Khesh'dar council, comprised mostly of the clans that provided the heroes of the Razorcrown wars. *Called Tuvaar the Great, Tuvaar the First, The Word-bearer, The Warlord of Unified Darguun, and a few less than flattering titles, depending on the author. The first Dhakaani ruler to unify Eastern Darguun with Western Darguun, he was a paladin of the great Dhakaan and modelled his domain to match the idealized state envisioned in the teachings of the Dhakaan and left an imprint on the Khesh'dar (called the Silent clans) that they are not lesser for being goblin and that makes them particularly dangerous to tribes like the Ghaal'dar that view goblins as little more than chattel. The fact that the Kech Volaar tribe is an offshoot from a competing group of bloodlines within the Kech Volaar clan just makes things interesting, with one branch of the clan claiming rulership from Volaar Draal and another branch claiming rulership from the Khesh'dar fortress of Jataan the Serene in the valley called Serenity.
goblin_pride 03-13-07, 03:00 AM	...It would certainly explain why the Dhakaani clans of modern Darguun maintain their old traditions; as far as they're concerned, the Dhakaani Empire isn't dead. Was it ever in doubt that the empire wasn't dead? One needs only to look to the Warlords of Karrnath to see that the Dhakaani have left an imprint on Khorvaire that transcends the racial lines that one would assume denotes Dhakaani rulership. I realize that the title of Warlord there may simply be a hold-over from the days when manlings ruled over goblinoid subjects close on the heels of the founding of that state, but even if only in name, the tradition still lives, buried in the shroud of history. It is long past due for the Empire's ghost to whisper into the ear of the Karrnathi to take their place in the rebirth of the empire alongside the Dhakaani of Western Darguun. Your traditions will join themselves to ours and our traditions will join themselves to yours and the empire will be reborn, stronger for the addition of your people's culture and traditions to ours.
Darth Syntax 03-13-07, 03:59 AM	Considering my particular version of the Empire, a Dhakaani influence on Karrnath is unlikely, as that region was home to the Yimyaataq, although the hereditary warlords do have taqanuk (the adjectival form for 'people' in their language) analogues. I see the, very faded, influence of the Dhakaani in surprising places. The Zil owe quite a bit to the Dhakaani, especially in the architecture of Trolanport (which like my old capitol of Hankarash is full of canals), in their byzantine legal traditions, in their writing systems, and in their civic zeal. These were part of proto-zil culture, artifacts of having been under Dhakaani rule for centuries. Granted, the modern Zil have developed in markedly different ways, and their social ethic is different, but the influence is deep, if not readily apparent. Brelish civic architecture of the pre-galifaran period took its cues from the local ruins, which is why there are so many domes, towers, courtyards, and wide cobbled streets in Breland; this was the style they knew. In short, it's why brelish civic buildings look a bit like The Red Fort (http://www.indianholiday.com/india-photo-gallery/images/delhi/red-fort-delhi.jpg). The influence of the Dhakaani on pre-galifaran breland also extended to the design of armor, the weapon styles, and occasionally tactics. The Galifarization of Breland reduced the more obvious Dhakaani influences, but the more deeply ingrained aspects remained. The tea houses of Sigilstar also show some Dhakaani influence as the Kech Volaar were original from this region and revived the practice before migrating further south when it became dangerous for them to remain in Thrane (due to anti-goblinoid sentiment stirred up by Karrn the Conqueror). If the Modern Dhakaani succeed in gaining more political power, I can bet they will point out these legacies to the world, draw on them, and see if they can't gather some support based on common cultural traits. -- Though the specifics and details are different, I agree with you. The modern Dhakaani are looking for allies, and they might find them in surprising places. May the Wheels turn once again!
goblin_pride 03-13-07, 08:32 AM	Though the specifics and details are different, I agree with you. The modern Dhakaani are looking for allies, and they might find them in surprising places. I'm looking at warforged and changelings primarily for the moment, but the thought of adopting the Zil state as a member of the new empire is such an in-your-face irony that I may even have to make it so.
Nerdicus 03-13-07, 02:51 PM	I'm looking forward to seeing whom my goblinoid player is going to be going to for allies to further the Dhakaani empire. So far he has rallied almost all the sewer goblins of Dura behind his banner( a group called the Redcaps because they all wear redcaps). So far he is still on friendly basis with the Droaam Daask goblinoids that are moving into Sharn, but he has already expressed that he doesn't care for their tactics nor their way of business.
goblin_pride 03-14-07, 03:26 AM	Tu'ulva tensed as the marking brother leaned over him. "Relax brother," Daanvar said, "your years of training with the spear caused you more pain than this will. I am quite skilled at my work, relax and the pain will be brief. If you tense up this mark will cause you much pain." "I do not fear the pain," Tu'ulva said, "it is having another standing over me with a sharp object that makes me tense, brother. It is nothing, I will suppress the urge to use my knife." "That is good," Daanvar said, "I have been struck many times over the years for my work, but I am rather fond of my skin not being opened by the blades of my brothers for it." The old goblin leaned over and began the work of tattooing Tu'ulva's newest honor on his cheek. "I was told by some of the other sergeants that I should grow used to working on you, brother" Daanvar said. "With the hours you devote to making yourself skilled in the arts of war, you'll be seeing alot of me, I should think." "Perhaps," Tu'ulva said, "I would not look forward to it any time soon, however." "Perhaps you are right," Daanvar said, "brother Haruuc is hardly one to listen to when he says I may soon be adding the mark of the archer to another." "The master of the archers said that to you?" Tu'ulva asked. "Yes," Daanvar said, "we were having tea in the Soldier's market and he mentioned you by name. Your name is spreading among the common soldiers as well, if you continue to learn, honorable brother, I'll be adding the captain's mark to your cheek as well." Daanvar leaned back in his chair and said, "and my work is done for this day at least. I expect to see you again within the next week or so to continue painting honor on your skin, brother." "If I continue to draw breath," Tu'ulva said, "you will grow tired of seeing me."
goblin_pride 03-14-07, 04:46 AM	"Sire, I must protest this," Jaalan said, "it is not proper." "You listen to the Duur'kala now," Vaarsuva said, " he knows better than any of us that it's not right. Tell him, Daraak." "I have to agree with his Majesty, Vaarsuva," Daraak said, "but I am sorry you can't see the value of it." "What is the opinion of my generals," Tuvaar said, "Madoc?" "I cannot say I agree with it on the surface," Madoc said, "but I can see the value of it as well, your majesty. I would recommend proceeding with caution on this matter, but it would seem to make some sense. Taalen has had the most contact with them, I would seek his opinion rather than mine." "I have had quite a bit of contact with them, your majesty," Taalen said, "they can be trusted with the most dangerous of secrets and they will labor nonstop towards the objective of an operation seemingly without care or concern for their own well-being. I would say that it a good idea and if this one in question truly is educated in our ways, he should take his place among us as one of us." "I have never had contact with one of them," Longshanks said, "so my opinion is useless to this debate, sire." "There is no debate," Tuvaar said, "the decision has already been made. I wish to know who among you will accept the oath of loyalty from the first of them among our people." "Not I," Vaarsuva said. "The honor of this should be yours," Daraak said, "and to the further glory of the Empire, your majesty." "Not I," Longshanks said, "they cannot ride, so they are useless to me." "I would prefer you find another," Madoc said, but I will accept their oaths if you order it, Majesty." "I will accept them, Majesty," Taalen said, "in your honor. It would be a great honor to me to do so." "It is settled then," Tuvaar said, "captain Mahaatus'ala, you will accompany Taalen back to the Citadel and when you arrive there, the warforged under your care will take the oaths of a Dhakaani and soldier of the Citadel. The ones that you have chosen shall be given the opportunity to take the oaths as sergeants and the warforged called Bastion shall be given the opportunity to take the oath as Captain of the Citadel under the command of General Taalen." "Yes, your majesty," Mahaatus'ala said, "I am honored that you accept them as soldiers of the Dhakaani, I am certain they will not fail you or the empire in any way." "Captain?" Taalen said, "How many are there that you are going to name one captain?" "Fifty-six are battle ready and knowledgable enough in our ways to be useful," Mahaatus'ala said, "but the goblins of my command are working on training and teaching another ninety-eight. With luck, our scavengers in the Mournland will increase that number significantly." "And where is this new company of the Dhakaani?" Tuvaar asked, "I would like to see them before they march to the citadel." "They are a day's ride behind me," Mahaatus'ala said, "They should be here by morning, assuming they carry their current officers and the builders that travel with them."
Rosary 03-14-07, 08:23 AM	Goblin Pride & Darth Syntax - you are the strawberries-with-cream of these boards! I always enjoy reading your insightful, well-considered posts, especially the Tolkienesque way you have of creating culture, language and ties to the past. It makes the world feel real for me and always extracts hearty acknowledge from the rest of my group when I tell your stories. Rest assured I will follow these discussions of yours. - Rosary
goblin_pride 03-14-07, 11:28 AM	I always enjoy reading your insightful, well-considered posts, especially the Tolkienesque way you have of creating culture, language and ties to the past. Tolkienesque? That's a bit too much of a compliment, I think. Although I appreciate the sentiment, I think Tolkien would roll over in his grave for what I've done with his goblins. I've always thought it was odd that so little time and effort went into creating history and culture as background for players wanting to explore the ancient empires in roleplaying games. The forgotten realms is dotted with lost empires that apparently left no trace on the present except ruins to be plundered. With Eberron, I got a fallen empire that not only left a sizable footprint in the ruins left buried over a wide area but also a people that still hold the traditions and culture as their heritage. I am a poor storyteller, but with any luck I've been able to flesh out a bit of the Dhakaani that give me such pleasure.
goblin_pride 03-15-07, 08:34 AM	"You be careful," Madoc said, "taking that one into your confidence would be courting disaster." As they walked along the battlements of Kethet's terrace, he continued, "Would you like to know the nature of the crimes which he's committed?" "Certainly, general," Taalen said, "it would be unwise for me to not ask the opinion of my seniors." "Mahaatus'ala was exiled from the Citadel for cheating in an examination," Madoc said, "he entered the training floor against his examiner with an enchanted blade and protective magics. The point of a fair examination was lost to him, the value of testing his raw skills unseen by his eyes." "He was exiled for it?" Taalen said, "I would've thought it more proper to sell him to the farmers to toil in the fields under their watchful eyes." "He was exiled because of his accomplices," Madoc said, "My younger brother Hatuur was among them. It was Jaalan that suggested that he be sent from the Citadel with only what he could carry on his back. A dozen others were given their deaths because the marks they had earned through deceit couldn't be removed." "They let him live? After such an outrage?" Taalen looked shocked. "Let me finish the story," Madoc said, "I hope you do not think less of me for it. I knew of his plans to use deception to advance himself. For my knowledge and failure to act, I was given the choice of taking the oaths of a Black Brother and wandering for a time or death. Jolun took part and for that he is forbidden from rising above the ranks of the Elo'khesh. Hatuur took the Black Oaths as well and his exile was at my side. Ten years we wandered, plotting these days the whole time. Hatuur planned well for almost everything, we had not considered the return of the Toymaker, however. His tools of war are potent, but I would use caution in accepting him into your confidence." "I'm shocked, brother," Taalen said, "in all the years I've known you I never would have thought you capable of that kind of deception. It would seem the Black Brotherhood has changed you for the better, my old friend." "I am a tool of the empire," Madoc said, "my oaths to the Black Brotherhood have been unbroken for all the years since they were first uttered. I will not betray the empire or even that child we placed on the throne. You should know that the Captain you accepted this morning doesn't share my devotion and you may be seen by him as a rung in his climb to power. Do not hesitate for a moment if you sense deception from him. Strike him down at the first hint of it." "And Jolun," Taalen said, "do I need to watch that one as well?" "Jolun is nothing to be feared," Madoc said, "he has reached the highest position he will ever attain and he knows he is watched. He's ambitious and deceitful, but he is predictable. Look to the Black Brothers among the companies I gave to you, they are people to be trusted. They were instrumental in the choice of companies that I gifted to you." After a pause, Madoc continued, "Jolun is nothing, he is a scapegoat placed in high political office, brother. If you find yourself in need of someone to take the blame for something grave, let me know and I will make certain that Jolun has done it. His life ended many years ago, he is just unaware of it."
Wymarc 03-15-07, 05:49 PM	Im afraid i don't have the time to read through the 20-some pages I haven't read yet, so sorry if it has already been mentioned, but I saw the alternative rage in the Cityscape Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) and thought it might be perfect for Dhakaani with levels of barbarian.
Darth Syntax 03-15-07, 07:23 PM	An interesting ability, although the pedantic side of me would like to point out the at very concept of a Dhakaani barbarian is somewhat paradoxical, owing to the fact that the term barbarian (from bara meaning savage or uncouth, with a collective form of barbara) was the OHD word for foreigners. Yes, I know barbarian actually comes from Greek, but it was just too tempting to include a similar etymology in OHD, and help explain the use of the word in the world. -- In a semi-related note, I was wondering if it might not be somewhat advantageous to compose some kind of Index for all this superlative goblinoid information, seeing as the search function is perpetually absent.
Millenia 03-16-07, 01:38 AM	What's OHD?
Darth Syntax 03-16-07, 02:18 AM	OHD is Old High Dhakaani, the Imperial language that I have been creating. There are references to it in this thread, although it seems the original thread that it appeared in has been lost the the Great Prune. Anyway, as it stands that version of OHD is out of date. A grammatical and lexical retooling is underway, mostly to make the language more naturalistic.
goblin_pride 03-16-07, 03:43 PM	In a semi-related note, I was wondering if it might not be somewhat advantageous to compose some kind of Index for all this superlative goblinoid information, seeing as the search function is perpetually absent. I thought about that briefly but discarded the idea because it would have to posted as another thread and it would find itself pruned, archived or out of date within a week.
goblin_pride 03-16-07, 05:10 PM	"I WANT TO KNOW WHO DID IT," Madoc shouted, stalking in front of the row of goblins along the battlements of the central tower of Kethet's Fence. "I DEMAND TO KNOW WHICH ONE OF YOU WRETCHES PAINTED THAT ON THE FACE OF MY TOWER." He pointed wildly up at the Imperial Sigil painted on the face of the tower, it's white enamel standing out boldly on the black, laquered wood face of the upper tower. "IF THE GUILTY PARTY DOES NOT STEP FORWARD THIS INSTANT, I WILL SEND EVERY ONE OF YOU TO YOUR GRAVES TODAY. I WILL NOT BE DISHONORED BY MY OWN TROOPS." Fuming, he reached the end of the row and turned back in time to see a lone goblin step forward in the middle of the row. Almost running, he reached the lone goblin at a pace far faster than one would assume from a goblin so old, struck him hard on the cheek, dropping the lone goblin to his knees. "YOU HAVE DISHONORED ME, YOUR BROTHERS AND HIS IMPERIAL MAJESTY WITH THIS PATHETIC SIGN OF HIS DOMINANCE." Madoc screamed, "FOR YOUR INSULT, YOU WILL NOW DO THE SAME ON EVERY TOWER-KEEP OF THIS FENCE. I EXPECT THE IMPERIAL SIGIL TO APPEAR ON EVERY TOWER-KEEP BEFORE THE SUN RISES AND HIS MAJESTY ASKS WHY HIS SIGN IS ON ONLY ONE." Madoc turned to walk into his command post atop the battlements as the rows of goblins scattered to begin the work. He smiled as he reached Longshanks and said, "rather a good bit of morale I think, eh?" Turning to the captain to his right, Madoc said, "suggest they should add the sigils for the great virtues of the Dhakaan beneath the Imperial Sign, Captain, spread the word to the others that I am pleased. Name the goblin who painted the first and the scapegoat to Honorable Brother when the task is completed." "Yes sir," the captain said and scurried off. "You have a strange way of showing your pleasure, brother," Longshanks said, "How did you know he would step forward?" "I didn't," Madoc said, "but I knew one of them would. The captain that was at my side and I concocted the plan last night, he saw to the task of having the sigil painted at my order. The goblin that stepped forward did so to volunteer to take the punishment for his brothers. In the morning, the Imperial sigil will be seen along the entire line of outer defenses for all to see and that brother who stepped forward to scapegoat himself will be promoted." "A dangerous plan," Longshanks said, "did you consider that no one would step forward?" "I know my people," Madoc said, "in the morning they will see me pleased at their work and it will boost their morale. They will have given the Emperor a gift and honored him and me as well. Painting the sigils and virtues on the faces of the towers will remind them of the oath to serve and in the morning they will enjoy the benefits of honorable service to the empire. The Captains have all chosen one brother from their commands to promote to sergeant and in the morning the entire army will be honored because I've arranged for Tuvaar to come down to the fence to thank them for their show of loyalty and devotion." "You're as mad as the council has always thought," Longshanks said, "You know that, right?" "Not entirely," Madoc said.
Romulus LoneWolf 03-16-07, 07:52 PM	Just a stray thought: anyone else think 300's Spartans would be a good model for the Goblinoids of Darguun?
goblin_pride 03-16-07, 09:32 PM	Just a stray thought: anyone else think 300's Spartans would be a good model for the Goblinoids of Darguun? I'm not sure. I haven't seen the movie yet. Read over the last few pages of the fluff text and tell me if you see similarities.
Joni-san 03-17-07, 02:39 PM	"This is blasphemy! This is madness!" "This! Is! DHAKAAAAAN!"
loseth 03-18-07, 07:49 AM	"This is blasphemy! This is madness!" "This! Is! DHAKAAAAAN!" Oh yes!
loseth 03-18-07, 07:50 AM	Just a stray thought: anyone else think 300's Spartans would be a good model for the Goblinoids of Darguun? The general feel of a totally uncompromising militarism fits, but KB has stated that the Dhakaani are not particularly concerned about honour (they're much more concerned about winning), so an adjustment would be needed there.
The_Robot 03-18-07, 03:41 PM	The general feel of a totally uncompromising militarism fits, but KB has stated that the Dhakaani are not particularly concerned about honour (they're much more concerned about winning), so an adjustment would be needed there. heheh. since i saw 300 two nights ago, I've been thinking about how it might fit in Eberron, I really can't come up with anyone better than the Dhakaani...er...maybe the Valenar? But at this point I am simply more familiar with the Dhakaani, so I'm going with them (thanks to this amazing thread.) And not to hate, loseth, but I have to say that I think the Spartans weren't above using backhanded tactics over honor so long as they won. That might be overstating it a bit, but I keep thinking about the scene in 300 where Leonidis bows to Xerxes, and the Spartan jumps off his back to kill the diplomat. I don't see things like that, feinting in combat, or tactical false retreats as being without honor. From a military perspective, those are smart tacticts. As much as the Spartans were amazing warriors, they were smart fighters too. In this way, I feel like the Dhakaani are a perfect fit for the Spartans...in fact, I'd be interested to see a history of the Daelkyr invasion of Khorvaire. Just to see how 300 the gobos got on the Daelkyr (even though, eventually the Spartans won, and that's not true of the Dhakaan-Daelkyr war.)
Darth Syntax 03-18-07, 04:11 PM	There is often, in my experience, some confusion over the distinction between glory and honor. Glory is about showing great prowess, it is about victory. Honor is more about behaving according to some code which hampers your actions in some way. The Greek heroic emphasis was far more about glory than about honor. I would say that the Dhakaani military ethic is slanted toward glory, but even more to pragmatism and efficiency. Dispatch your foe quickly, with the minimum of unnecessary action, move on. Adopt, adapt, and improve
Romulus LoneWolf 03-18-07, 06:20 PM	There is often, in my experience, some confusion over the distinction between glory and honor. Glory is about showing great prowess, it is about victory. Honor is more about behaving according to some code which hampers your actions in some way. The Greek heroic emphasis was far more about glory than about honor. I would say that the Dhakaani military ethic is slanted toward glory, but even more to pragmatism and efficiency. Dispatch your foe quickly, with the minimum of unnecessary action, move on. Adopt, adapt, and improve Agreed. Being Honorable doesn't necessarily mean being "Squeaky Clean". It really depends on the strictures of one's code of honor. I personally think that the Dhakaani Code of Honor installed Loyalty as being the highest virtue, based on a descending order: Race-Nation-Ruler-Lord-Commander-Family-Individual Family Member-Friends. Which meant that betrayal was acceptable, so long as you didn't violate higher causes: arranging for the assassination of your lord so you can take over his position is fine, so long as your loyalty to your Ruler and Nation are constant. Of course, if said Lord catches you in the attempt, he might not agree...
Darth Syntax 03-19-07, 01:25 AM	I envision the Hierarchy of Loyalties to be a bit differently. 1. Loyalty to the Law 2. Loyalty to the State 3. Loyalty to your City 4. Loyalty to your Caste or Profession 5. Loyalty to your Patron 6. Loyalty to your colleagues and true friends 7. Loyalty to your true being 8. Loyalty to your forbearers The ultimate loyalty is to the Law, which is to say that loyalty to civil order, reason, and wisdom were considered paramount. Any member of society who was found to have violated loyalty to the Law was subject to a swift death. It was actually more dangerous to commit willful perjury or be held in contempt of court than it was to plot the assassination of a government official. Perjury was considered a form of treason and punished accordingly. And woe to any advocate who knowingly offered perjured testimony in court.
goblin_pride 03-19-07, 02:01 AM	I wrote the bits of the Razorcrown wars on the Daanalor pass with a nod to Thermopylae, although I needed a glorious victory against overwhelming odds so I had to make the battle a much closer combat in terms of numbers. As far as the spartans go, I always envisioned the goblinoids that you might meet outside of the cities or outside of the Dhakaani controlled territories are most likely going to be military, meaning highly trained, highly skilled and highly capable fighters with a very strict code of ethics and an unflinching loyalty to the empire. It's a bit confusing at first, but I envisioned the Dhakaani as having multiple loyalties with loyalty to the empire being first and foremost. Deposing or destroying an emperor was distasteful, but even that was not an act disloyal to the empire because it would bring a new emperor to the throne and thus the empire would benefit. The loyalties of a dhakaani are to empire, emperor, province or army, governor or general, tribe or military order, clan, circle of friends and family, in that order. Often times the conflicts within the empire will cross one loyalty for another with the empire itself being the foremost concern. It's a bit of a twist, using family-based titles at varying levels of loyalty when family is valued below all others, but then again, the Dhakaani aren't like other beings.
goblin_pride 03-19-07, 04:00 PM	"Tell me, Physician," Madoc said, "has the Ironlord returned to health to your satisfaction or does he still require your care?" "He is quite fit," Jaamun said, "I believe he is more than capable of leading the armies of the empire in his Majesty's name, general. I would expect to be released from his household shortly." "Have you any plans for that day," Madoc asked, "Or do you plan to return to Serenity to practice your arts?" "I had no plans," Jaamun said, "but I was warned by the Ironlord that I should be concerned if you ever seemed interested in me. What plot is brewing behind those eyes, general?" "He knows me too well, I think," Madoc said. "I was thinking about the health of the armies. Would you be able to teach the healer's arts to common soldiers if given the opportunity?" "If they were capable," Jaamun said, "I'm certain I could instruct them in simple surgery and the treatment of disease, although they would need a proper physician to oversee their work in more serious matters." "Would you be able to oversee training and recruiting of proper physicians as well?" Madoc looked at the physician for some sign of interest and continued, "I was impressed with your handling of the Ironlord's injury and poisoning and thought perhaps it would benefit the armies to have physicians with them. Perhaps if the Ironlord's own physician were placed in a position of authority in the Citadel, we might be able to recruit or train troops capable of saving their fellows from grave injuries. Would you be interested in overseeing this project for me?" "General," Jaamun said, "are you asking me to raise an army of healers to travel with the army?" "Slightly more than that," Madoc said, "I want you to train soldiers in the art of healing from within the ranks as well. If one in ten or one in twenty is able to save the life of his majesty's soldiers then his majesty will not need to replace as many after a battle." "I must admit," Jaamun said, "some of your cut-throats' skills with the knife would lend themselves to the surgeon's arts. My only fear is that they would not respect a lowly physician during the training and I am but one goblin. There are far too many to teach alone." "Ah," Madoc said, "I had considered that. Read this letter and tell me if it would help you." He held out the rolled paper to the Physician. "You'll be given the rank of Captain, the mark of an Honorable Brother and the first master's mark of the healer if you present that letter to Daanvar in the Citadel." "There is no mark of the healer among the Daru'khesh, general," Jaamun said. "Yes," Madoc said, "that would be the reason I said you would bear the first mark of the healer. Do you think you would be capable of such a thing?" "I think including healers in the army is an excellent idea, general," Jaamun said. "I would be proud to serve his majesty in this regard. You'll have to excuse me now, I have a very important dispatch to deliver to brother Daanvar of the Daru'khesh."
goblin_pride 03-19-07, 06:43 PM	"Your operation is being reduced in it's importance," Yuni said, "I will be taking captain Hratec here as my clerk and lead planner." "Sergeant, ma'am," Hratec said, "begging your forgiveness." "Captain," Yuni said, "unless you're too stupid to understand a promotion, in which case you are of no use to me. The operation in the museums will be headed by you, Ghaash. For this I have ordered Kethet Nightshade for your detachment to lead the ten infiltrators that I have arriving with the ships from Darguun. He and the troops under him will serve as your means of liberating more of the relics of the empire from the museum. You will continue your disguise and attempt to gain further respect from the academics of the manlings. Unless you feel the desire to dispute these orders, in which case I offer you my blade for the dispute. I see that yours is woefully inadequate for an honorable duel considering you will now be in command of infiltrators hand-picked and trained by general Madoc himself." "No ma'am," Ghaash said, "I am in your service. Yatzuur is our best pilferer, would he not be a better choice for the museum?" "He would," Yuni said, "if I didn't need him in the operations to break the criminals that run freely in the lower reaches of this city. Yatzuur is to gain control of the criminal element in this city and turn it to our use. For this task he will need to be free of the task of plundering the museum. He was sent with you because he is a thief and I happen to need a thief." "As you wish," Ghaash said, "general." "Persecuter Taluur," Yuni said, "is now the sole commander of the peacekeepers of Dura'sharaat and he will be working closely with Yatzuur to ensure that our criminal enterprises don't target Dhakaani within the city. Furthermore, Taluur will be responsible for ensuring the borders of our holdings in the bowels of this wretched place. I have troops coming that will man the walls of our enclave, but until those walls are in place and the troops taught the ways of the city, his experience will be needed." "The marketplace is not defensible, ma'am," Hratec said. "It would take dozens of builders to make it so." "It is good that there are fifty coming with the ships, then, isn't it?" Yuni said. "This is not a small operation any longer, I have three hundred Dhakaani coming to fill in the outline laid out by Kethet Trollbait for retaking the city from the bowels up. Two in five of this city are goblins, from that population we will reforge the blade of the Dura plateau. From this point onward, we are rebuilding this city. We will begin by removing the elements that are dangerous to us and returning the goblin clans of this place to their proper place in the Empire's service. I expect the recruiting efforts among the local goblins to bear fruit, but if need be, we will use the troops I am bringing from home to do the tasks as laid out in the plans sent to general Madoc. Am I understood?" "Yes, general," Hratec and Ghaash answered in unison. "Now," Yuni said, "I am tired, I am hungry and I need a bath. Hratec, show me to the baths, fetch me something to eat and find me some spiced wine." "There are no baths, general," Hratec said. "Ghaash, find Arkhuul the Runt," Yuni said, "matters are worse than I expected, I will need to send dispatches back to the citadel. Hratec, when the builders arrive, tell them we will need baths. I will not live in such uncivilized conditions while we strive to bring civilization to the locals. How does the manling kingdom survive with no baths? It is unthinkable and uncivilized."
goblin_pride 03-20-07, 09:52 PM	"This is terrible," Dagdaruun said, "There is no way to make this place like home. Look at the lighting, the sun never gets down this far, does it? The whole market will feel like a tomb." "We've dealt with worse conditions, old friend," Jatuun said, looking over the list of incoming supplies. "Might I recommend that we include building supplies in the next load of goods coming to the city?" "Building supplies?" Dagdaruun asked. "Has your mind finally gone?" "I'm sorry, sir," Jatuun said, "I was just thinking that if we used Dhakaani architecture and materials here we could make it feel more like home and possibly draw interest from the leaders of the local goblin clans. Build a bit of home here in the bowels of the city of towers to pique the interest of the locals and give them a peek at what life is like inside the empire." "That may work," Dagdaruun said. "Not considering a return to the Innkeeper's life are you?" "No," Jatuun said, "but I have yet to settle on a cover for myself in this place. With so many coming, I had thought you might be able to assist me with the decision, so as not to duplicate another's position." "Not so keen on the tailor?" Dagdaruun asked. "Not particularly, no," Jatuun said. "My skill as a tailor is rather ham-fisted. As a soldier I am adequate at sewing, but not qualified as a dressmaker. I was examining the roster, there are enough brothers to cover most of the roles we need to fill. I had thought perhaps you could attach me to brother Kethet Bladesong's school, if it pleases you." "A musician?" Dagdaruun asked, smirking. "You have gone soft in the head, haven't you? You're far to valuable a tool to me to assign you to teaching the young. I cannot allow it." "Back to running the inn it would seem then, is it?" Jatuun said, looking disappointed. "I suppose it is what I do best." "Try not to be so glum," Dagdaruun said, "if you laugh more often you will live longer. I think it is time we exercise your skills as an architect. The idea to build a second home here was yours, it is your task to do so. Your wife will be more than capable of running the inn." "What?" Jatuun asked. "You are not so difficult to understand, friend," Dagdaruun said. "I had your wife and children assigned to the list of non-combat personnel coming here. Well, except the older ones, they voluteered to be assigned here. Your desire to be around the children in Bladesong's school told me that I was right to assume that being so far from home would be difficult for you." "Isn't that dangerous?" Jatuun asked. "There are dozens of wives coming here," Dagdaruun said, "I saw no danger in ensuring that yours would be among them. We are to build a home here and make this place a part of the empire. In order to do that we need Dhakaani families here to increase our numbers." "You're planning to build a village here?" Jatuun asked. "No, my friend," Dagdaruun said, "you are. I was looking for a way to put you in a position suitable to your loyalty to me and the empire. You will build the enclave here for the protection of our families. I have already asked the general to promote you and she agreed if I could find a task suitable for the appointment of a captain. You have never disappointed me, please do not begin now."
goblin_pride 03-20-07, 10:01 PM	Is anyone keeping track of the number of loose threads I've left in the fluff? I was at first but I kind of lost count in the mid-thirties.
gaerfindel 03-20-07, 10:34 PM	Once again, Pride, you astoud me with the depth & deviousness of goblin plots. Bravo, Brother. Bravo.
goblin_pride 03-20-07, 11:20 PM	Once again, Pride, you astoud me with the depth & deviousness of goblin plots. Bravo, Brother. Bravo. Which one? If I've done my task suitably there should be more than a few in the works.
gaerfindel 03-21-07, 09:07 AM	Which one? If I've done my task suitably there should be more than a few in the works.Well, the whole series of narritives is intriguing for the insight into the political machinations of the Empire. But mostly I was referring to the plan to take back Dura'sharaat from the "manlings". The city won't know what hit them...
goblin_pride 03-21-07, 10:19 AM	Zalmua shrugged. "I'm not sure what purpose there is behind it." As she lowered the glasses from her eyes, she turned towards Daraak and said, "I can see that the doing of the task has invigorated his troops' morale." "That old crow was always good with morale," Daraak said. "I suppose we should counter with a symbol of our devotion as well." "Captain, take notes," Zalmua said, "Pass the word that all weapons are to be sharpened and polished until they gleam in the sunlight. Fresh enamel and polish on all armor as well. I want all the banners of the empire to pale beside the banners of the Paluur'uru and the stormguard." "That is not enough, wife," Daraak said. "Captain, order the marble of the parapets scrubbed and polished. I want these paltry defenses at the foot of his majesty's walls to shine like the floors of his palace. Fresh silk draperies hanging from the turrets, alternating Imperial black and white, the stormguard's purple and green and Zalmua's red an blue. I want fresh enamel for the gates and doorways. In short, I want these fortifications dressed like an imperial palace. The goblins on the fence should look to our position and see a shining example of the livery of his majesty's armies. I want all in this valley to see our place of honor among the armies." "You have your orders, captain," Zalmua said. "Pass the word that creativity will be rewarded, any sign of our devotion to the empire that we've overlooked should be done. The Stormguard and it's auxiliaries are the first into battle bearing the Imperial standard, we will not be outdone by Madoc's light infantry."
goblin_pride 03-21-07, 10:56 AM	"This is interesting," Vaarsuva said. "Perhaps you should have a look, captain," he said, holding out the glasses. Daar'gal took the glasses and peered out over the valley. "An excellent sign of devotion from the goblins on the fence, sir. Do you think we should offer a sign of our own?" "It would seem the bugbears below think it's a good idea," Vaarsuva said, "and I am always one to follow Daraak's advice." "I'll order the banners displayed, sir," Daar'gal said. "It shouldn't take more than half of them to put all the others to shame." "No, captain," Vaarsuva said, "that won't do. I need much more than that. Jaalan brought musicians with him, didn't he?" "Yes sir," Daar'gal said, "and five of the great war drums are laid out among the trebuchet on the terrace." "Good," Vaarsuva said, smiling. "Send word to the musicians, I want the fife and drum to sound at all hours of the day. We will wake to the sound of the wardrum and rest to it's beat, the others may give his highness pretty colors but the Ironlord will bring the heartbeat of his majesty's armies to his ears." "A good plan, sir," Daar'gal said. "Still not enough," Vaarsuva said, "A feast will be held on the terrace this evening, sergeants, captains and one common soldier from each of their commands. We will gather in company to toast his majesty's rule and share in the blessings from his fields. Double the daily ration for all the common soldiers as well, there will be a feast for all the troops loyal to the emperor under my banner. You have your orders, go."
goblin_pride 03-21-07, 11:49 AM	"What's this?" Tuvaar asked. "A list of the promotions this morning from general Madoc," Jaalan said. "He raised to sergeant one soldier from each captain in the army and promoted two of his own choosing as well as adding Jaamun the physician to captain." "A physician?" Tuvaar asked. "Does he plan on healing our enemies to death?" "Hardly," Jaalan said, "I found an old text from around the time of the collapse that suggested a trained healer for every ten in an army would decrease the rate of loss in the aftermath of a battle by more than half. Madoc was willing to accept the task of testing the theory." "So, what's the total addition of troop strength once these sergeants and healers are added?" Tuvaar asked, laying the sheet of rice paper on the table in front of him. "Assuming Taalen's levies are raised quickly enough to battle strength and Madoc's new officers are able to fill their ranks," Jaalan said, "your army just doubled in size." "Twice as many untested by battle is not a pleasant thought." Tuvaar said. "Any word from the envoys or will we be marching soon?" "It would seem we will be marching," Jaalan said. "Madoc started the task of raising the spirits of the troops yesterday, they'll be in competitive spirits for some time, it would be best to march within the week." Tuvaar stared off into the open sky out the window and said, "I suppose now would be the time to decide where we are to march."
goblin_pride 03-23-07, 07:08 PM	Well, the whole series of narritives is intriguing for the insight into the political machinations of the Empire. But mostly I was referring to the plan to take back Dura'sharaat from the "manlings". The city won't know what hit them... When I first read the little bit on Ghash Duurkat in the PGtE (pg 114) in the Morgrave University section, my mind just screamed "SPY". When the DM used the same NPC for a source of info on a Dhakaani sword the rest of the players and I were chasing, it spawned the whole plot to infiltrate and overtake the city from the bottom up. It didn't help any that my Dhakaani PC was making lots of friends in the underbelly of the city by weeding out the more brutal criminals among the goblin residents in the Cogs. If a lone hero goblin steps out of the shadows in the Cogs and can unify the other goblinoid residents of the city, he could conceivably make life in the city very difficult for those living in the upper levels. The only problem comes in holding the city once an uprising starts. For that, you need trained troops, farmers, builders and ready access to both fields for growing food and the sea for trade and reinforcements. As the Dhakaani begin making a foothold, large portions of the undercity will be cleared out for producing food and housing the displaced from the renovations. The reason for using goblins primarily is one of logistics. First, goblins eat less and require less space to inhabit. Second, goblins can be trained, taught and in some cases bred more quickly than the other races. Third, and most importantly, goblins already make up 39% of the city's population anyway, no one will notice another couple hundred living in the bowels of the city where the social elite don't spend much time anyway. The purpose behind sending architects, builders and farmers along with combat personnel is one of morale. If the locals see that by siding with and learning from the Dhakaani means more food in their belly and less work to get it there, you'll have a more willing audience listening to the songs and studying the philosophies. The war for Dura'sharaat won't be a military conflict as much as it will a propaganda* war. Building an army of troops willing to die for what the empire has given them is a long process, the war for Dura'sharaat begins with the first city goblins accepting the Dhakaani way. It ends when the rulers of Sharn and Breland see that a Dhakaani enclave with it's own army has already existed in their city for some time and the cost of taking it would be too high to consider. *My thanks to Ho Chi Minh and John Paul Vann for their writings on the subject of propaganda vs combat. Winning the "Hearts and Minds" of potential enemies before they become enemies is crucial to the outcome of any war, it's odd that some of the best writings on the subject come from opponents in the "police action" in Viet Nam. It's almost as if no one had thought about this aspect of warfare prior to that conflict.
Nerdicus 03-24-07, 12:49 PM	In my game my player(goblin rogue/ranger with Dhakaani heratige) is going to be using the Daask, and how brutal and tyranical in their ways they are, as a means of getting the general populis on to the side of the Dhakaani. So far though, he has already upgraded and investied into the rat farming trade. He has put a bunch of money into it, plus taken it under his protection. He already produces almost all the food for the goblins of the Dura sewers and most of the Daask forces. He has also began using the skins from rats, something that had been piling up from the huge number of rats that are being consumed in a day, for making leather aromor.
goblin_pride 03-25-07, 05:05 PM	Tuurek knelt before the throne at the top of the Word-bearer's tower. "The Droaamites await your will, Majesty," he said. "I have them camped on along the western banks of the Wyvern's Spur, opposite the village of Wyvernwater. At your command I will march them to our enemy's gates, sire." "Excellent, Captain," Tuvaar said. "Go below, find food, drink and comfort, you are released from your duty for the rest of the day, Taalen will have your orders for you in the morning." "As you will, Majesty," Tuurek said, before rising and walking quickly to the stairway. "It was a foolish plan to begin with," Vaarsuva said, "But it would seem Hatuur's Droaamites are left here for us to deal with. Shall I dispatch troops to force them back into the sea?" "Have you lost your mind?" Daraak asked. "You would waste your troops strength to deal with the mercenaries hired to fight for us?" "I am in agreement with Daraak," Tuvaar said, "I'll not waste Dhakaani troops to remove a Droaamite thorn. Better our enemies should do that for us. The little clerk's Droaamite army might prove useful, regardless of his original intent." "The question stands, Majesty," Taalen said, "Where do we apply this foreign strength? I would prefer to raze the Ghaal'dar city myself, but the foreigners would be able to do so without exposing us to the outside world." "I disagree," Madoc said, "Use the Droaamites against the Kech Sharaat and their usurper. Raise the siege on the Kech Volaar once and for all and force them to our banner or smash their gates with hired troops. We can destroy two usurpers at once and then move the might of our armies to devastate the third." "Your troops are in place for this plan already, general Madoc?" Tuvaar asked. "Yes, Majesty," Madoc said, "The first First, fourth and fifth companies of infiltrators are in place inside Rhukaan Draal and the second, sixth and seventh are in place in Volaar Draal. All await your pleasure." "Longshanks, you're rather quiet." Tuvaar said. "Are you prepared for the long campaign?" "Quite," Longshanks said, "give the command and the Taarka'khesh will ravage the countryside and give your enemies no choice but to hide inside their walls, majesty. The wolves of the Khesh'dar serve your will, prepared or otherwise." "We are in agreement then," Tuvaar said. "This is madness, sire," Jolun said, "another year to build the strength of our army would be better. We could triple our troop strength if we waited another year. These fools are willing to throw away perfectly good armies in pursuit of a goal that we could easily achieve by waiting." "Governor," Tuvaar said, " you were allowed to sit in on this meeting as a courtesy. You are not military, you have no experience in these matters and since I agree with the generals' assessment of the situation and agree with them on the course of action, you have insulted me." "Allow me to assist, majesty," Daraak said as he grabbed Jolun by the collar and belt. Carrying the esteemed governor of the enclave of Jataan the Serene to the edge of the battlements, Daraak seemed unfazed by Jolun's kicking and screeching. Daraak swung the little goblin back towards the watching generals and then heaved him out into the open air overlooking Kethet's Terrace. Turning back towards the group, he said, "I take it there are no other objections?"
goblin_pride 03-26-07, 03:22 AM	"Back again so soon, sergeant Tu'ulva?" Daanvar asked, looking up from the trooper he was working on. "At the rate you're learning, you'll soon have no use for me, brother." "Perhaps, brother Daanvar," Tu'ulva said, "but I think I'll still find an excuse to come. Your counsel is appreciated and I find speaking with you more enjoyable than the whelps in my command." "I am done with you whelp," Daanvar said to the goblin seated in front of him. "Now get out of the way so that I can work on a goblin worthy of bearing his markings." Taking the seat Tu'ulva held out a letter to Daanvar. The old tattooist looked at the orders before speaking, "I apologize, captain, I was not aware of your promotion. Taalen's third company, eh? You should do well, although I expect you'll be sending me a bit more work to do in the next day or so. Have you selected suitable sergeants from your own command or will you be taking from the Citadel?" "My previous command were all Elo'khesh," Tu'ulva said, "perhaps one might be qualified for rank, but even that I would doubt. I think I'll take from the unassigned sergeants, assuming any will swear themselves to me." "I think you'll find it quite easy, brother," Daanvar said, "It was Madoc's third that Taalen first commanded. That detail will cause many in the citadel to think that Taalen is grooming you for generalship. The mere fact that you wear so many master's marks will draw many to you, but the thought of serving as sergeant to future general will draw more." "I would not make such a good general, I think," Tu'ulva said, "but you are right more often than not, so I will assume that you are correct in this as well."
goblin_pride 03-28-07, 05:00 PM	"That was not helpful," Madoc grumbled. "Nonsense," Daraak said, "every one of the troopers in this post knows now without a doubt that the civilain authority doesn't extend to military camps." "Or," Madoc said, "they know that their generals and emperor are not above losing their temper and throwing anyone of any rank off the top of a tower. Fear isn't a good motivator, my old friend, it'll cause an army to break in the heat of battle. Fear won't put them over the top, it'll ensure failure." "It still felt good to teach him to fly," Daraak said, smiling. "He knew too much and he was still a danger. You know as well as I do that he was looking to take Hatuur's envied place." "Oh, I agree," Madoc said, "great teacher of flight. You could've at least let me in on your plan to hurl him headlong into the engineers. I didn't mind watching him tumble topknot over teakettle, but I could've used the three engineers you killed when the governor landed. And that trebuchet didn't fare much better. Completely ruined, a perfectly good siege engine and you turn it to splinters by dropping the esteemed governor on it." "I was caught up in the moment, general," Daraak growled, "I wouldn't be so quick to chastise a warlord for such an act so close to an open window." Seizing the opportunity as Daraak leaned in to add weight to his threat, Madoc lunged. Throwing the weight that was holding down the map on the table, he caught the old bugbear squarely in the forehead. As the bugbear staggered backwards, Madoc was on him, forcing Daraak to the floor with a resounding thud. Sitting on Daraak's chest, blade drawn, Madoc spoke, "My friend, this could end badly for us. You killed the little would-be puppetmaster before I could find where all the strings led. His death was assured when he gave his loyalty to the little clerk, now I must find where the plot will come from. You've killed my only source of information and now I must prepare for battle without knowing the enemy or the field, do you understand?" "Yes, old friend," Daraak mumbled, "I am sorry for the outburst. I assumed you were chastising me without reason. How do we proceed?" "Ah, there's my old friend again," Madoc said, rising from his impromptu seat and resheathing his blade. "We do nothing." "Nothing?" Daraak asked, as he bagan to rise. "Horrible, isn't it?" Madoc asked. "Inactivity in the shadow of an enemy you do not know is the greatest enemy of an infiltrator. We wait, we use loyalty to find the knife held at our throat." "Loyalty?" Daraak asked, "What are you babbling about?" "Taalen," Madoc said. "I sent my most faithful of servants to find me a qualified hunter. He in turn will ferret out the plot against us and eliminate it, ruthlessly and efficiently. Taalen is certain he has one capable and he's willing to accept the task. He'll also rid us of the Toymaker in due time, because I have no doubt he has a role in Jolun's plans. His return was too well-timed to be coincidence. In the mean time, be cautious, you've killed their leader." "I have a question, Madoc," Daraak said, "was it you holding Hatuur's leash or the other way around?" "A good question," Madoc said, "we may have to discuss that someday."
goblin_pride 03-30-07, 03:46 PM	"A brief word if I might, general?" The voice was strangely soft coming from the hobgoblin standing in doorway of Madoc's field office on Kethet's fence. "I have traveled some distance in these many months, I would have hoped to see a bit more unity in the tribes and clans of Darguun in my absence." "Come in and sit down, before someone sees you," Madoc said. "Your skill at disguising yourself is good, Gatekeeper, but you should know that hobgoblins don't wear shaders, that is a weakness of the orc." "Ah, thank you for that insight," Dox said, sliding the goggles up onto his forehead. "I must admit, general, that I am not a true Gatekeeper. I am but a simple toolmaker for a Gatekeeper. My master cannot meet with you because he is incapable of slipping so easily through your guards." "Dox the Toolmaker, eh?" Madoc said, his face widening with with a sly smile. "Drop the disguise, my friend, I would rather look you in the eye while we speak rather than some false face staring back at me." "As you wish, general," Dox said, his eyes rolling back in his head for a moment and returning in their usually dull grey color. His skin muted and shifted as the lips, nose and brow of the hobgoblin faded away into the featureless form of of a creature seemingly half-finished. "Better, general? I would shed the tattoos, but they are indeed part of my face at this point." "Honors earned," Madoc said, "I cannot begrudge you wearing the honors you've earned in the years that we've been friends. What brings you again to me, Dox?" "Fear, general," Dox said, "the seals are weakening across all the face of Khorvaire. I fear the ancient enemies will soon be loosed on an unsuspecting world. We need the unity of the Dhakaani soon or this time we may not be so fortunate in our defense. My expeditions in the Mournands haven't turned up the seals that were there before Cannith's madness engulfed Cyre. I fear that we may be too late already, the creatures may have already slipped their bonds." "You risked yourself crossing our defenses to tell me you're afraid?" Madoc asked. "Such foolishness is unlike you, Dox." "No, I risked the defenses to bring you this," Dox said, pulling a Dhakaani style shortblade from his pack. "A gift for you, general. A blade made of the finest Byeshk, I thought you would appreciate it. Happy Birthday, general." Rising to leave, the Toolmaker paused as the hobgoblin's features returned. "I may not have said it in the past, general, but I value the things you have taught me. When the empire of the Dhakaani is rebuilt, I would be honored to make it my home." "Thank you, Toolmaker," Madoc said, "and you're welcome."
goblin_pride 03-30-07, 04:48 PM	"I just had the weirdest thing happen to me, Madoc," Longshanks said. "I was walking along the battlements when a hobgoblin passed me. Nothing terribly unusual in that, I know, but the markings on his face looked like that grey thing that you found out on the Torlaac back when we were Yuni and Taalen's age." "It was him," Madoc said, holding up the Byeshk shortblade the skinchanger had given him. "He came to bring me a birthday gift." "Your birthday isn't for another six months," Longshanks said. "I know," Madoc said, "it's his birthday. Today is fifteen years to the day that I released him from slavery. I would imagine that if you look in your room, you'll find a replacement for those horrible boots you wear." "Why?" Longshanks asked, looking perplexed. "Dox is a bit quirky," Madoc said, "for birthdays he gives out presents to the people that make him individual. Something in his mind makes him think that he is himself because of the people around him more than anything in particular about him. You were with me that day when I found him and took him in, chances are he's left you a gift." "Why did you do that?" Longshanks asked. "I've always wondered." "If that's the biggest concern you have," Madoc said, "then I truly am gifted in concealing my work." "Seriously," Longshanks said, "Why did you take that thing in?" "Curiosity," Madoc said. "I looked at him and I wondered how it was that he could change his face to look more like a goblin. He was just a child, you know, barely beyond an infant. His skills are much better now than they were then." "I can recall," Longshanks said. "Several times when he was here there were times when I wondered if it wasn't him I was speaking to." "It may well have been," Madoc said. "I was looking for a way to learn the trick he does mimicing the faces of others, but in the end it was a lost cause. I am a goblin and he is a skinchanger. It's a shame really, he would've been such a perfect infiltrator. I taught him enough that I could justify releasing him into the world as a free creature and I set him loose. His kind vex me, I wonder if we wouldn't be wise to gather them as well as the creatures that the manlings built for their war." "A skinchanger kingdom in the new empire?" Longshanks asked. "That would be rich, you'd never know if you were talking to the king or a slave." "No," Madoc said, "Dox told me on his last visit that his kind are shunned and hunted for their abilities. They hide among the manlings and others. Such wonderful talents wasted in hiding when they could be put to good use is horrible. I had thought to ask the emperor about them once, long ago, but since Tuvaar has taken the throne I haven't had the opportunity."
gaerfindel 03-31-07, 01:33 PM	Considering what we now know about the lot of Riedran changling, this revelation could prove...interesting.
goblin_pride 03-31-07, 03:48 PM	Considering what we now know about the lot of Riedran changling, this revelation could prove...interesting. I had thought the relationship between the diminishing Gatekeeper sect and the Dhakaani would've been more interesting. And the whole thing about the seals that were in Cyre just seemed too delicious to pass up. With the possibility that something ancient, powerful and bent on the reshaping of the world so close, it might just force action when caution would be more prudent.
gaerfindel 03-31-07, 09:21 PM	I had thought the relationship between the diminishing Gatekeeper sect and the Dhakaani would've been more interesting. Oh, no doubt. I'm merely commenting on the use of changlings, as a race, to further the ends of a given, non-changling nation-state. I find your--or rather, Madoc's--methods as far preferable to Riedra's, given that... ..most Sarlonan changlings aren't allowed individual personalities.
goblin_pride 04-01-07, 07:06 PM	Oh, no doubt. I'm merely commenting on the use of changlings, as a race, to further the ends of a given, non-changling nation-state. I find your--or rather, Madoc's--methods as far preferable to Riedra's, given that... ..most Sarlonan changlings aren't allowed individual personalities. It's a bit of a twist that the Dhakaani I use for my game are slightly more accepting of the newer races. Outlanders have a place in the empire in the view of the generals, warlord and imperial heir that I use as the basis for my game. The individual matters among the remnant of the Dhakaani that I use because most of the clans that comprise the remnant were goblin and in the goblin mindset, it's better to be an individual and willingly surrender a bit of your freedom and autonomy to gain the strength of empire than to have it forced from you. Other Dhakaani are viewed as a sort of extended family unified by a philosophical and psuedo-religious teaching, any race can learn the ways of the Dhakaani and therefore can become Dhakaani if one has the patience to teach or learn.
goblin_pride 04-02-07, 04:14 AM	"Beautiful, aren't they?" The hobgoblin asked. "Yes," Tuvaar said, "the armies are vying to outdo each other for my approval. I think we shall be at war before too long, the banners are just occupying them for the time being while the generals sort out the details." "Apologies, sire," the hobgoblin said, "I was referring to the soldiers, not the banners. Although the banners are nice as well, the faces of your soldiers show an inner peace and a beauty that the banners pale beside." "I never thought of that," Tuvaar said. "Which general do you serve?" "None, I am afraid," the hobgoblin said, "and all, in a manner of speaking. I am Dox'esaat uhtgaolaan, I was told by others in my youth it means Faceless Hobgoblin, but I think it was meant to be insulting really. You may call me Dox, if you wish, your majesty. I once was in the household of the old crow, but that was long ago." "Madoc," Tuvaar said, "I haven't heard him called the old crow in years. How long have you been in the field? Sergeant, is it?" "The markings are false, sire, as is the face," Dox said, "I needed them to get up here. I am a skinchanger, what the manlings call a changeling. I wanted to see the valley from the top of the Word-bearer's tower again, I apologize if I've disturbed you." "You're not an assassin then?" Tuvaar said, relaxing a bit. "By no means, your majesty," Dox said. "Just a weary traveller wishing to see a sight from long in his past. It's been fifteen years since I called this place home, little has changed though. The mountains are still the same and the people still have the same feel to them, but I see a sense of purpose in what they do. You'll be marching them off to war soon, eh?" "Most likely," Tuvaar said. "I had hoped to meet with the others here and settle the succession peacefully, but none have come. What is it like, the outside world? The others would put me on the throne of the world and I've never been beyond these mountains." "It's a wonderous place," Dox said. "You'll like the world, there is so much to do and see that you could live a thousand lifetimes and never see it all. And the people, such variety, it's almost as though they're blades of grass or leaves on the trees. Many are alike but many are different, it's awe-inspiring some times." "So what is it that brings you home again?" Tuvaar asked. "The search for things hidden and best forgotten," Dox said. "I am servant to a Gatekeeper. I came to Darguun to examine the seals that bind the Daelkyr to their prisons." "Daelkyr? Here?" Tuvaar asked, alarmed. "Calm yourself, Emperor," Dox said. "You've none of that strength here, although there are abominations buried in Darguun that should be left buried. I was on my way to the Mournlands to search for the seals there. I have a great fear that I will find one or more of them broken in that blasted land. I came here to look on the land of my youth before I condemn myself to the open grave that was once the manling kingdom of Cyre." "You're going to hunt them in the Mournlands?" Tuvaar asked. "Oh dear me, no," Dox said, laughing. "That would be far more stupid than anything else I've ever done in my life. We're going to find the seals to make sure the prisons are holding, nothing more." "We?" Tuvaar asked, "Are there more of you here?" "My companion is in Rhukaan Draal awaiting my arrival," Dox said. "I came to this place alone. I remember the need for secrecy, sire. I do have a gift for you, and a dire task that accompanies it." Dox held out the rolled paper towards Tuvaar. "This is a map of the Gatekeeper seals in Darguun. The places on this map are an extreme danger to all, as the emperor of the Dhakaani, I give you this map so that you may guard these places from treasure hunters." "What if one of these threats should break it's bonds?" Tuvaar asked. "Look to the Shadow Marches, sire," Dox said. "The Gatekeepers will come if you call for aid. It is their task to bar the way for the creatures of madness." "And what of the Dhakaani while we wait for aid," Tuvaar said, "How can we hold out until you arrive?" "Byeshk," Dox said. "Hold to your skill and arm yourself with Byeshk. The Dhakaani fought the Daelkyr army to army once, you can hold back one of their minions until the Gatekeepers arrive to rebind it." After a brief pause, Dox continued, "I must go, sire. Your people are in capable hands, but look beyond your borders for allies if you find yourself in need. Perhaps one day I will return to serve as the caretaker for the seals here. It would be good to make this my home again." "These places will be defended, Gatekeeper's servant," Tuvaar said, "you have the word of the emperor of the Dhakaani."
goblin_pride 04-03-07, 05:27 PM	Sorry for the delay in getting anything new up, I hit a stretch of writer's block that just doesn't want to go away. I'll think on the story and hopefully have something new before long.
Nerdicus 04-04-07, 02:21 PM	What do you think the hobgoblin cavalry would ride? I posted this question over in hte Classes, races, monsters area, but thought it might prove as a good conversation here too. So far the best I have thought of is a drie wolf. But I think they should ride something cooler!
DarthMidget 04-04-07, 02:46 PM	I don't know. I think they might ride horses. After all they used to be a mostly surface race right?
goblin_pride 04-04-07, 07:46 PM	And what's wrong with having the Dhakaani hobgoblins ride advanced hit die wolves? I realize they're not as fantastic or terribly different from their goblin cousins on regular wolves but it prevents a bit of the mounts turning on their riders. For a twist I give the mounts bred by the Taarka'khesh the magebred qualities as a freebie. It makes the silent wolves a bit more on par with the Valenar and doesn't overbalance them too much. As far as cavalry goes, I don't use hobgoblin cavalry*. The heavy infantry is where the hobgobs shine. Heavily armored, slow moving, but able to crush any defense under their plated boots. For an assault on a stronghold you want bugbears breaking through and scattering inside the enemy's defenses, but on the battlefield the regimented hobgoblin units will win the day. Goblin cavalry will scatter an enemy's archers so that the hobgoblins can crush any army on the field. Hobgoblins are best when their ability to form up strong regiments can be put to best use. I alone am nothing. My shield will protect me, but it is best used to protect the Dhakaani next to me, for he would do the same. My spear can kill one enemy, but my brothers' spears can form a wall of death that nothing can cross. My boots make little sound by themselves, but the footfalls of all my brothers will shake the world. I am Dhakaani, I am one of many. Strength in numbers, unity in purpose, glory in conquest, you will kneel or we will force you to your knees, for we are the Dhakaani. Our emperor would have your answer, will you resist? *the cavalry I do use for the Dhakaani goblinoids would be considered light or irregular at best. Goblin scouts form up to form the cavalry component of the armies so it's more like a massed group of individual combatants rather than a strictly regimented cavalry unit. Having huge numbers of individual small units makes the cavalry extremely difficult to control from one side or to defend against for the other. Picture it this way, on the battlefield you'd have multiple small units of light cavalry running amok in the backfield of the defending army trying to cause small amounts of damage over a wide swath of the defending army, while attempting to take out units like archers and engineers.
goblin_pride 04-04-07, 08:03 PM	I don't know. I think they might ride horses. After all they used to be a mostly surface race right? I was always of the mindset that the Valenar first brought the horse to Khorvaire and later the Sarlonans brought their own weaker breeds of a similar animal. I realize it's a bit cliche, but I somewhat like the idea of the first Dhakaani seeing a horse not knowing what it is he's looking at. In my own campaign, it was the goblins waging the "War between Wolf and Horse" that finally broke the Valenar first occupation. The victory in that war came from the Dhakaani goblins outnumbering their Valenar enemies more than anything else. The fact that the Dhakaani rode carnivores was also a major factor because the Valenar horses were targetted just as much if not more due to the wolves' biting. It was this conflict more than anything else that secured the clans like the Taarka'khesh a place in the imperial dominion as a seperate clan because it demonstrated the value of goblin cavalry as a specialized form of warfare.
DarthMidget 04-04-07, 10:34 PM	Hmmm...well goblin wolfriders should fill the strategic gap nicely given the opposition they would be facing. Since the only real cavalry army the Dhakaani would encounter would be Valenar (and there aren't too terribly many of them) the goblinoids should be able to hold their own.
goblin_pride 04-05-07, 08:43 AM	Did you forget about those pesky Talentans? Additionally, a wolf can trip medium-sized creatures like orcs and gnolls so that a single goblin scout can just poke away while his mount keeps an enemy on it's back.
DarthMidget 04-05-07, 12:13 PM	Did you forget about those pesky Talentans? Well I don't really see the Talentans being a problem for the Dhakaani. I wouldn't imagine the Dhakaani would be invading Talenta anytime soon. The Valenar, however, raid aggressively all the time which was mainly what I was referencing.
Nerdicus 04-05-07, 04:26 PM	Aren't the Valenar Cavalry a heavy cavalry? Because if so, that would mean they would fair much better against wolfriders. A line of heavy hose riding in formation, litteraly a wall of armored flesh with spikey spears the first thing the enemy meets, is something that would over ride wolfriders in every charge. OF course, after that first charge is finished and the formation is lost and the horse is forced to slow down, the wolfriders would be having their hayday with the tripping and the biting. I think that the Hobgoblin cavalry would have been something like heavy cavalry. Armored dire elk ridden in formation. So far that is my vote for coolest mount for the hobgoblin.
Darth Syntax 04-05-07, 04:36 PM	As far as I know, the Valenar are the epitomy of light cavalry. Lightly armored (if at all) and making use of hit and run and raiding tactics. Horse archery would be common I would imagine. Heavy cavalry just dosen't make sense for a nomadic people. -- On the mounts of thre Historical Dhakaani Unlike my esteemed collegue gobin_pride (may the wheels turn forever in his favour) I do not much care for the idea of the Dhakaani making use of wolves. Actually, I have a difficult time seeing them with any form of domestic or semi-domestic canine. So, no wolves, no dogs at all. As for calvarty, I really see the Dhakaani as having been primarily an infantry-based power with substantial investment in siege engines and artillary. They did make use of chariots and the like, mostly because the Khorvairan horse is a rather smallish animal and not well suited for riding. Tribex were also used to pull chariots, usually with a boghunbara (bugbear) driver, as they were more capable of handling the great beasts.
goblin_pride 04-05-07, 05:48 PM	As for calvarty, I really see the Dhakaani as having been primarily an infantry-based power with substantial investment in siege engines and artillary. They did make use of chariots and the like, mostly because the Khorvairan horse is a rather smallish animal and not well suited for riding. I have trouble seeing the Dhakaani hobgoblins using any sort of mount except to raise a general or perhaps a captain up on the field so that they can see the surrounding battle. Hobgoblins in my mind have a rigid, military mindset and tend to naturally form up into regimented units. Cavalry, which relies on controlling a wild beast, would be totally alien to that sort of thinking. Goblins and bugbears with their long histories of keeping domesticated animals would be far more comfortable in the handling and use of beasts of burden. The reason I used wolves in lieu of some other creature is because they are capable of increasing the combat abilities of the rider, as they advance in hit dice they become large creatures and their ferocious reputation fits well with the goblin. I think if there was another choice that was a normal animal, could grow large enough to bear a hobgoblin and had similar combat values, I would be just as likely to use it as the wolf. But my bugbears still use elephants and tribex. The big hairy brutes and their bugbear handlers are a testament to the skill of the Dhakaani bugbear at harnessing the creatures of the world to the empire's service.
Darth Syntax 04-05-07, 08:15 PM	I have trouble seeing the Dhakaani hobgoblins using any sort of mount except to raise a general or perhaps a captain up on the field so that they can see the surrounding battle. Hobgoblins in my mind have a rigid, military mindset and tend to naturally form up into regimented units. Cavalry, which relies on controlling a wild beast, would be totally alien to that sort of thinking. Goblins and bugbears with their long histories of keeping domesticated animals would be far more comfortable in the handling and use of beasts of burden. I don't see the Dhakaani hobgoblins as being necessarily rigid in their thinking, but rather predisposed to plan things out far in advance. These were a people (in my view) who thought honor was an excuse for incompitence and tradition a euphemism for inefficency. If you know that your enemy relies on the use of "artillery mages" in combat, then you plan ahead and fight in a formless, spread out fashion. Just because your forebearers fought in phalanx formations dosen't mean you must as well (unless it is still efficient, then you do). The reason I used wolves in lieu of some other creature is because they are capable of increasing the combat abilities of the rider, as they advance in hit dice they become large creatures and their ferocious reputation fits well with the goblin. I think if there was another choice that was a normal animal, could grow large enough to bear a hobgoblin and had similar combat values, I would be just as likely to use it as the wolf. But my bugbears still use elephants and tribex. The big hairy brutes and their bugbear handlers are a testament to the skill of the Dhakaani bugbear at harnessing the creatures of the world to the empire's service. I've never really had much luck with the image of the ferocious goblin. It always comes across as ineffectual. To me, goblins are devious amoral pragmatists, traits which are often mistaken cowardice. Now, this dosen't mean goblins are 'safe', far from it; but their more likely to poison you without your knowledge than they are to confront you in combat. They make better spies than soldiers, but if they are on the field I see them as performing varrious "support" roles such as carrying messages, aiming artilery, or acting as scouts. it would be unthinkable to have a goblin on the front lines, they would find it distasteful.
Nerdicus 04-05-07, 08:48 PM	I have trouble seeing the Dhakaani hobgoblins using any sort of mount except to raise a general or perhaps a captain up on the field so that they can see the surrounding battle. Hobgoblins in my mind have a rigid, military mindset and tend to naturally form up into regimented units. Cavalry, which relies on controlling a wild beast, would be totally alien to that sort of thinking. Goblins and bugbears with their long histories of keeping domesticated animals would be far more comfortable in the handling and use of beasts of burden. The heavy cavalry was exactly that though. Discaplined regiments of armored horses moving in lines to crush the exposed flanks of enemy forces. Or, perhaps to cleave throught the front lines to open the way for infantry.
goblin_pride 04-05-07, 09:42 PM	I've never really had much luck with the image of the ferocious goblin. It always comes across as ineffectual. To me, goblins are devious amoral pragmatists, traits which are often mistaken cowardice. Now, this dosen't mean goblins are 'safe', far from it; but their more likely to poison you without your knowledge than they are to confront you in combat. They make better spies than soldiers, but if they are on the field I see them as performing varrious "support" roles such as carrying messages, aiming artilery, or acting as scouts. it would be unthinkable to have a goblin on the front lines, they would find it distasteful. You can't picture goblins running in alongside the bugbears in an assault? The bugbears would scare the daylight out of the enemy, the goblins would use that as a diversion to pick off weaker and stronger opponents* while the battle line pressed forward. Remember, a goblin in combat is never alone. Simple demographics would put some goblins on the battlefield as infantry just due to their population. *I never use military goblins for the dhakaani that don't include at least one level of rogue. Regardless of their function on the field, my dhakaani goblins are not something you should ever turn your attention away from.
Darth Syntax 04-05-07, 09:56 PM	Goblins in a frontal assult? Just dosen't work for me, especially given that goblins are prone to breaking and running. As a general rule, goblins were not used as melee troops or as front line troops. Now goblins with ranged weapons, this is far more likely, they can hang back and provide covering fire and pin down the enemy. I can also see them being used in a covert capacity, demolitions and things of that nature. I agree that most goblin soldiers would be rogues or something of that nature. The front lines are probably going to be mostly hobgoblin heavy and medium infantry, dazutraan elite soldiers, and bugbears. In a pinch, they might use goblins, but it would be wiser to use them in other places on the battle field where they would do the most good.
goblin_pride 04-05-07, 10:05 PM	The front lines are probably going to be mostly hobgoblin heavy and medium infantry, dazutraan elite soldiers, and bugbears. In a pinch, they might use goblins, but it would be wiser to use them in other places on the battle field where they would do the most good. The only goblins I would put in the front ranks would be the elite light infantry in a supporting role to the hobgoblin infantry and the rare knifemen that would accompany the assault. The rank and file goblins would be archers, engineers and scouts. I never had any images of heavily armored goblins because as you pointed out previously, that's just laughable. Goblins have the advantage of a natural tendency to mob up when fighting, taking every possible opportunity to stick a knife in the back of a comrade's opponent.
goblin_pride 04-05-07, 10:11 PM	Goblins in a frontal assult? Just dosen't work for me, especially given that goblins are prone to breaking and running. Dhakaani goblins aren't the normal everyday Monster Manual goblins, just as the hobgoblins and bugbears aren't the same. The empire was able to solidify it's grasp on the world by moving beyond the stereotypes and it was that ability to transcend that would place the goblins in the frontal assault. A goblin with a knife working closely with a bugbear would be a perfect tactic because their enemy wouldn't see the goblin as a threat. And the goblin wouldn't feel the urge to break because the bugbear is his shield from harm.
Darth Syntax 04-05-07, 11:20 PM	Oh I agree with you about the goblins being much more than what the MM states, which is part of why I see them the way I do. The Dhakaani goblins were not the super-populous underclass, but rather a perfectly civilized element of society who were dominant in the sciences, mathematics, and in the bureaucracy. Gobin soldiers were actually quite rare in my view and as such they were not often put into the more "meat-grinder" portions of the army as they were too valuable to waste in that fashion. Most of the artillery commanders, the siege engineers, and the field alchemists were goblins. The natural goblin response to close combat is to run, fast. Again this is not to be interpreted as cowardess but rather as a deliberate tactic. Goblins are not physically imposing and they know this, so if they have lost all the element of surprise (or the advantage of distance) they make a dash for it. They might buy they compatriots some time to set an ambush while fleeing. The much celebrated goblin cowardess is at least as much tactical decision as it is real panic.
goblin_pride 04-06-07, 12:09 AM	The much celebrated goblin cowardess is at least as much tactical decision as it is real panic. I would hold that it was more of a tactical decision over cowardice. Goblins in the empire weren't only some of the smartest, they were also some of the devious. A goblin leader would order a retreat and fake a rout more often than not in hopes that their enemy would charge headlong into a waiting ambush by bugbear and hobgoblin troops held in reserve. The assumption that goblins would turn tail and flee was something that the Dhakaani goblins would capitalize on heavily. Goblins are not physically imposing and they know this, so if they have lost all the element of surprise (or the advantage of distance) they make a dash for it. On the other hand, there would be certain elements within the armies of goblins that were as equally motivated as their hobgoblin and bugbear comrades in arms and those would be the ones you would find in the front ranks. The numbers wouldn't be terribly large, but even one in a thousand goblins on the front ranks would still net a huge number in the massed armies of the empire. It's these individuals that I'm talking about, the ones that would put themselves at great risk sneaking inside the defenses of enemy positions to break them open from inside or charging out with their brothers in the first waves of the assault adding a higher degree of lethality to the assault. It's in those situations that war heroes arise among the diminuitive of the goblinoids. Your enemy will not see you or your knife in the shadow of a bugbear, but that is his error, because you will be free to remove that enemy from our larger cousin's path to glory.
Darth Syntax 04-06-07, 12:38 AM	I would hold that it was more of a tactical decision over cowardice. Goblins in the empire weren't only some of the smartest, they were also some of the devious. A goblin leader would order a retreat and fake a rout more often than not in hopes that their enemy would charge headlong into a waiting ambush by bugbear and hobgoblin troops held in reserve. The assumption that goblins would turn tail and flee was something that the Dhakaani goblins would capitalize on heavily. On this point we are in total agreement. Goblins were, and are, among the most devious of peoples. Only the Zil are really in competition with them. On the other hand, there would be certain elements within the armies of goblins that were as equally motivated as their hobgoblin and bugbear comrades in arms and those would be the ones you would find in the front ranks. The numbers wouldn't be terribly large, but even one in a thousand goblins on the front ranks would still net a huge number in the massed armies of the empire. It's these individuals that I'm talking about, the ones that would put themselves at great risk sneaking inside the defenses of enemy positions to break them open from inside or charging out with their brothers in the first waves of the assault adding a higher degree of lethality to the assault. It's in those situations that war heroes arise among the diminuitive of the goblinoids. Your enemy will not see you or your knife in the shadow of a bugbear, but that is his error, because you will be free to remove that enemy from our larger cousin's path to glory. I can see you point, I just view goblin psychology a bit differently. Generally goblins are not motivated to become up front combatants, it's just not in them. I do however agree that goblins would be the perfect infiltrators and assassins, and they were no doubt celebrated in such roles.
goblin_pride 04-06-07, 12:45 AM	I do however agree that goblins would be the perfect infiltrators and assassins, and they were no doubt celebrated in such roles. Most definately. But I added a bit of a twist to the infiltration angle with goblins infiltrating their way into the assaults of their larger allies, moving through the fluid melee at the front line cutting throats and opening kidneys to ensure victory for the Dhakaani. Only the most hardened of the goblin veterans would even consider taking on such a risky task, but they would be quite effective in that role because of the chaos of the melee.
Nerdicus 04-06-07, 02:24 AM	Modern Dhakaani goblins such as you speak of would do well with a level or two in beguiler. Moving through the enmy lines confusing and blinding them at the oppertune times.
goblin_pride 04-06-07, 07:02 AM	Modern Dhakaani goblins such as you speak of would do well with a level or two in beguiler. Moving through the enmy lines confusing and blinding them at the oppertune times. Not to insulting, but do you relly need a prestige class for every situation? A fighter/rogue can do that without making every goblin you meet 5-6th level. Prestige classes aren't meant to be used on every character in the game, otherwise they would just be called "classes".
Nerdicus 04-06-07, 12:17 PM	*ssshhhhhhh shhs shhh it's ok shhhhh* Beguiler is just a straight up class.
goblin_pride 04-06-07, 08:37 PM	Gaarvan smiled as he looked about the camp. Never had he seen such a host of his kin, the devout of the Old Ones were a force to be reckoned with these days. The Dhakaani can live with their rules and culture, here among the wildlings Gaarvan felt safe, secure, home. Taking the skin of wine from a skinny young female he drank deeply, turned to the older hobgoblin sitting next to him and said, "Your daughter is growing up, old friend. I should think it time we find her a mate. Are you amenable to my nephew for her?" Before the older hobgoblin could answer, Gaarvan's eyes unfocused, the world around him shifted and distorted. The bonfire grew searing hot on his flesh, but the coldness of it stung him in the depths of his being. He tried to rise, but something forced him to the ground. "Poison," he shouted, the word coming out as a whisper. He struggled against the weight of the very air about him as he tried to stand. The faces around his bonfire showed no sign of alarm, he could still hear the voices of those that shared his fire, though they sounded muted and distant. He blinked and the faces disappeared. The fire's intensity pushed him away from it as it both cooked and chilled him at the same time. As he gazed out across the valley of the Old Ones, Gaarvan couldn't see any of his people. He knew they were there just a moment ago, hundreds of them. "Am I dead?" he asked, with no one to answer. He staggered towards the statues of the Old Ones and the sky grew black as pitch. The mountains reflected back the light of his single bonfire when moments ago there were dozens. It was then he heard the sound. A mournful howl, like some great beast calling out to others of it's kind. Then he heard another, replying to the first. A third howl erupted from the silence, only this one far closer. Gaarvan huddled close to the bonfire, looking about for a weapon to defend himself. Then it hit him, the creature pounced from the darkest part of his vision. Or was there more than one? Gaarvan could feel a dozen jaws grasping at him, tearing at his flesh. Throwing him to the ground, the creature stood over him, it's jaws holding his arms and legs pinned. Gaarvan dared to look and saw it clearly, a great wolf, fully the size of a Tribex with three heads and six legs. It held him fast as he felt the life draining from him, it's remaining head snarling and vicious right at his throat. "My pet would consume you for disobeying me, Gaarvan the Warchild." The horned face stood over him, looking down on the broken body of Gaarvan. "Did I not tell you that you are to bear my standard in the war of the Dhakaani?" "The Dhakaani are not at war, my master," Gaarvan whimpered, struggling to wrench the power of speech from his broken body. "That is not my concern," War said. "Peace will destroy the goblinoid, you will bear my banner for it is all that will protect you and the Dhakaani from what is to come." The smell of roast goat filled Gaarvan's nose as another voice spoke, "Tell him of the threat, brother, otherwise you send a child to war in fear of your wrath rather than that which he should fear." "He could not understand it," War said. "This threat is far worse than any other, the knowledge of it would destroy him." Turning again to look down at Gaarvan he said, "If the Dhakaani do not make war, you do it. I will not tell you again. If you are not at war soon the world will hold no place for you or any other of your kind." "I am," the older hobgoblin said. "Your brother's son would make an excellent husband for her." "What?" Gaarvan asked, dazed as the world seemed to right itself in the span of a thought. "My daughter, Warchild," the older hobgoblin said, "You asked if a marriage to your nephew would be a good match. Are you alright?" "Too much wine, I think," Gaarvan said, "I must go find the Ironlord. I'll talk to my brother later about the match." Standing to go, Gaarvan was unsure if his broken body would support his weight but everything was as it had been before War had spoken to him. He hurried off towards the fortress of the Dhakaani in the next valley, not entirely certain of what course of action to take. "War must come," Gaarvan said, "and it must come quickly."
goblin_pride 04-08-07, 09:53 PM	"Madoc, wake up," Longshanks said. "There better be a good reason for this interruption, old friend," Madoc said. "Vaarsuva and Gaarvan are marching," Longshanks said, "I wanted to tell you before I joined them." "What?" Madoc said, springing from the bed and grabbing for his armor. "Does Tuvaar know?" "Not yet," Longshanks said, "I thought you would want to be there when I asked his majesty for his leave to march with the others." Stepping out onto the battlements, Madoc shouted, "Captain, pass the word the second, fourth and sixth companies light infantry, the second, fourth, sixth companies archers, the third and fifth engineers and the ninth infiltrators are all to strike colors and assemble in marching order. The Ironlord marches to war and if his majesty agrees they go with him." "Quite a few of your troops there, Madoc," Longshanks said. "Are you sure you can spare so many?" "Easily," Madoc said. "Taalen has another fourteen companies coming to reinforce my remaining nine. Those nine can back Vaarsuva and I can hold this position until Taalen's force arrives." "Taalen has fourteen companies of levies?" Longshanks asked. "No, he barely has ten." Madoc said, "I left nineteen companies behind when I marched here. Five should be able to hold Serenity while we secure the rest of the kingdom." "Hold on," Longshanks said. "That would give give you close to thirty-five companies. There aren't that many, are there?" "Closer to forty-five, actually," Madoc said. "I've been busy building his highness an army, although it's much easier now that they know they have an emperor. I'll need you to leave me a few scout companies, if it's no trouble." "Certainly," Longshanks said. "But I think we had best attend to his highness first, eh?"
goblin_pride 04-08-07, 10:45 PM	"I march to war, your Majesty," Vaarsuva said. "I ask your permission to take your name and will to the gates of our enemies." "Granted," Tuvaar said. "Sire, I must protest this," Jaalan said, "we should consider other options before conquest. Give diplomacy another chance." "Silence, Duur'kala," Vaarsuva said. "This is a council of war due to the failure of your diplomacy. You will be silent or I will have you silenced." "Have you chosen the battlefield Ironlord?" Tuvaar asked. "I have sire," Vaarsuva said. "It is intolerable that your imperial majesty, Tuvaar the Word-bearer, lives in exile from the city of the Word. I will retake the city of Volaar Draal for you, majesty." "Who will join the Ironlord in this?" Tuvaar asked. Longshanks stepped forward and said, "I will, majesty." "Ah, my most faithful hound," Tuvaar said, "I have a task for you, general. I want your companies to fan out across all of Darguun. Nothing is to leave any of the cities without my permission. You are going to be my hand at the throat of my enemies. Make it clear that this land is my empire and they live here at my whim. You will be the start of my siege of Darguun." "As you will, sire." Longshanks said. "Madoc, have we companies to assist the Ironlord's siege?" Tuvaar asked. "Nine sire," Madoc said, standing. "They are assembling for the march as we speak. The three companies of infiltrators inside the city are prepared to throw open the gates at the proper signal." "I will lead the assault at the walls in your name, Majesty," Zalmua said, rising. "Good," Tuvaar said. "You have my permission to leave, go and enforce my will. Madoc, Daraak, pass the word to remaining companies to assemble to march." "I beg your pardon, sire," Daraak said, "but I must ask why." "While the Ironlord retakes the city of the Word," Tuvaar said, "the Stormlord and the Word-bearer will revisit the Razorcrown. We march to Rhukaan Draal to force the Usurper's offspring to their knees." "Sire," Madoc said, "I must protest this, if we spread our forces so thin we will have no troops to reinforce us if one siege should fail." "Taalen builds an army at Serenity," Tuvaar said. "tell him to build it bigger. That will be our reinforcement if we should fail. All Dhakaani of the Khesh'dar shall be trained and prepared to defend our holdings at any cost. You each have your orders, now go."
goblin_pride 04-09-07, 11:44 AM	"A word, Majesty?" Jaalan asked. "I am on my way to check the progress of the troop massing for the march," Tuvaar said, "You are welcome to speak while we walk. Assuming of course you don't mind the Old Crow there overhearing." "I keep no secrets from Madoc," Jaalan said. "I wonder, sire, if it is wise for you to take the field now that you wear the crown of the Lhesh Dhakaan? I would think it far better for you to sit the throne and await news of your victories." "You mean my armies' victories," Tuvaar said. "No, I think the victory is ensured if the troops can look to me on the field. Don't you agree, Madoc?" "Yes, sire," Madoc said, absent-mindedly looking over a quatermaster's report. "Don't you just 'yes, sire' me, Madoc," Tuvaar said. "I learned tactics at your knee, what's your opinion?" "Honestly, sire," Madoc began, "I would have you at Volaar Draal for your own safety. Rhukaan Draal isn't a walled city and you are an engineer. Your skills would be better suited to the other prize." "But the Ironlord marches to face two Dhakaani armies," Tuvaar said. "How is it you consider that the safer prize?" "Longshanks will most likely rout the besieging force," Madoc said. "And the defending force will have to endure Vaarsuva's ambitions for victory. At least there you could be kept to the back of the battle with the engineers' train and paraded among the troops as morale was needed." "And at Rhukaan Draal," Tuvaar said, "will you try to keep me at the rear?" "There won't be a rear, sire" Madoc said. "Rhukaan Draal isn't a walled city. We'll be engaged at all hours along a wide front, the only rear areas we'll have will be the fortified positions we take or we build as we take the city section by section." "Is that a touch of fear, Madoc?" Tuvaar asked. "Are you unsure of victory?" "Never, sire," Madoc said. "I know how to take the city, but the taking of it is not something that I would expose the crown to unless your highness insisted. And considering that you have, the choice is out of my hands. I do have one problem that needs to be addressed, however." "You have a problem?" Tuvaar asked. "What could trouble the great Cut-throat?" "I need to be in two camps at once," Madoc said. "and unless Jaalan has some secret ability that I do not understand, that is not possible. I can command Longshanks' troops effectively enough, but mine are bit more difficult to use on the field. He isn't up to the task of using the infiltrators and Vaarsuva is completely inept in regard to them." "Inept?" Tuvaar asked. "Don't you mean he won't even consider using them unless he has no other choice and even then it's unlikely?" "Yes, sire," Madoc said. "Taalen has commanded the captains' that are inside the city already and he knows the signals to order them into attack but he is at Serenity raising additional troops. If you ordered him into the combat at Volaar Draal I would be a bit more at ease. Otherwise I fear that the siege of that city will fail for us as it has for the Kech Sharaat." "Who will build reinforcements if Taalen goes to the front?" Jaalan asked. "Finally a bit of sense, from the Duur'kala," Madoc said. "The captain of Taalen's third company is qualified to be made general and he could oversee the training of the levies until both cities are taken. I do not have a captain capable of generalship but apparently he found one among the levies that has an amazing ability to motivate the troops under him." "Done," Tuvaar said. "Does that put you more at ease, having Taalen at Vaarsuva's side to break the gates of the city open? Or would you have me send Daraak as well?" "No," Madoc said, "Daraak needs to be at your side in the siege of the Razorcrown. It won't escape the troops that they're fighting under the combined banners of the Stormlord and the Word-bearer against the Razorcrown. History will be our source of morale as much as your presence. It'll feel to them like ancient glories are repeating themselves."
goblin_pride 04-09-07, 12:02 PM	"Captain Tuurek," Vaarsuva said. "Yes, Ironlord?" Tuurek said. "The orcs and ogres from Droaam are prepared to march?" Vaarsuva asked. "Yes," Tuurek said, "They are awaiting orders from the crown." "They are given," Vaarsuva said, "Go and lead them into contact with the Kech Sharaat. Longshanks will need the help to rout that force." "Do these orders come from the crown or from you, sir?" Tuurek asked. "From me," Vaarsuva said. "You are ordered into action against the Kech Sharaat, captain. I am a Dhakaani Warlord and you will obey. I will not have Longshanks and the Taarka'khesh slaughtered engaging an enemy that outnumbers them needlessly. Your ogre mercenaries will be the shock troops he needs to rout the enemy and if we're lucky they'll be able to break that usurper without loss in our troops." "Yes sir," Tuurek said, "I will ride within the hour."
goblin_pride 04-09-07, 01:40 PM	Taalen stepped carefully, trying to avoid slipping on the wet stone steps. No one ever came down this deep into the fortress anymore. As he reached the bottom of the flight he nodded at the pair of guards clad all in black, the Empress' Kiss tattooed on their foreheads. As he opened the door, the stench from inside almost drove him back. "Empress preserve me, it smells like a charnel-house in here." "That is because it is," Na'gurta said. "You have need of the keeper of the dead, child?" His shackles rattled as he turned from the table. "You know as well as I that the grand council forbids any from speaking to me. Why have you risked the dangers of the slippery stair far from the comforts of the city above, child?" The old goblin turned his milky-white eyes towards Taalen and a smile crept across his face. "War has come, hasn't it?" "You're a bright one, I'll grant you," Taalen said, "but releasing you is against the will of the council. Why should I consider sending you beyond their reach?" "You're here of your own accord?" Na'gurta asked, his shackles rattling as he shifted his attention to the book on the table. "I had thought the old crow might have seen a need for his most dangerous prisoner. The dead are my armies, I would think the wisdom of fielding our enemies' own against them would be of benefit. I must be correct in my thinking or he would have seen to my execution so many years ago." "What makes you think I'm not here to see to that now?" Taalen asked. "No," Na'gurta said, "you're curious. Killing me doesn't answer your questions. You're not here to execute, you're here seeking understanding." The shackles rattled as the pale, old goblin sat down. "What is it you seek? Hmm? Could you be looking for some sign that my mind has slipped into total madness or that I haven't the power to raise an army from the crypts of the recently dead? My loyalty was in question once, could that be the thing you are here to judge?" Taalen shifted uneasily as a mouse's skeleton scampered across the floor and said, "Your life was spared long ago because of your position. If you weren't such a devoted captain so many years ago, Madoc would've had you killed." "Ah," Na'gurta said, "It is the old crow that drives you here. You wonder if I'm not a sign of his madness. Release me and I will show you why the old crow spared me, child. I will walk into the Daanalor and I will return with an army that the citadel cannot match. I will call to service the bodies that the Snowwalkers bury near to their gods." The old goblin's shackles rattled as he reached for the book and thrust it before him towards Taalen. "Vile magics, the council says. Necromancy, the art of the dead. I made myself a master of it against the old crow's wishes." Twisting the black signet on his finger, Na'gurta continued, "This saved me as much as Madoc's affection for his old captain. The black order shielded me from the wrath of the council. It is forbidden to kill a member of the black order unless it is wished by the thirteen. To kill a member of the Thirteen is a grave offense, the old crow would not have risked it. Even ordering it would stain his honor and find him killed in turn." "You?" Taalen asked, astonished. "You're one of the inner Thirteen?" "As is Madoc and his brother Hatuur," Na'gurta said. "You did not wonder why the Mute guard me and not the Peacekeepers? Those are my guards at the door, they answer to me. These shackles are mine, not Madoc's. He put them on me at my request. Is the boy crowned?" "The emperor Tuvaar sits the throne," Taalen said. "Hmm?" Na'gurta said, "I had thought it would be the other, Vaarsuva or perhaps even the fat one, Daar'gal I think was his name." Standing up the old goblin moved to the bookshelf and grabbed the pack that was on the lowest shelf. "Fetch me the key from the desk, child. It is time I be about my business and the old crow will need the army I can raise. Are the bodies of the Two-coin prepared for travel?" "How did you know about that?" Taalen asked. "I told you, child," Na'gurta said. "I am one of Thirteen, nothing escapes my notice unless I choose for it to. Hatuur informed me of his plan for them, I simply ensured that he would have the bodies burned and the bones prepared for a journey beyond the citadel." "The bodies are already interred," Taalen said. "A makeshift tomb was built for them at the thirteenth mile marker towards Rhukaan Draal. It was at Madoc's order, Hatuur is dead." "The little clerk will be missed," Na'gurta said. "But the old crow has given me the sign I needed. Has the Toymaker returned?" "Yes," Taalen said. "Kill him," Na'gurta said. "Do it quickly, do it violently, do it publicly. Make certain that his taint doesn't spread among the troops around him. That one would abandon all of our traditions for the ways of the Ghaal'dar, make very certain that his death comes after an argument over tradition. Find any excuse to begin the argument and make certain that you kill him very violently, preferably in front of any troops under his command." "As you order," Taalen said, "I will see to the task. And what message shall I send to Madoc?" "None," Na'gurta said. "Madoc will be going to Rhukaan Draal with the emperor, that was the point of the tomb. The bodies are the army I am to raise. You should return to the comforts above, child. The Bonelord has been loosed and the council will be in uproar over it shortly. Madoc will be expecting me to arrive at Rhukaan Draal soon. I have much work to do, as do you. Go."
goblin_pride 04-09-07, 03:05 PM	Tahraan rounded the track, knowing that the manlings wouldn't have so soon forgotten him. Turning back towards the other goblin he said, "Can that wretched pony of yours run?" "Faster than that dog you ride," Tarkhan said. "Why do you people insist on riding those flea-infested things?" "Don't you pay any attention to his grousing, old girl," Tahraan said, "He's just jealous because his people lost their wolves ages ago." "Is this the place you first picked up that hunting party we killed?" Tarkhan asked. "Yep, just here I killed one of their horses," Tahraan said. "It was about a week before we crossed paths." "So this is the border of the manling kingdom, eh?" Tarkhan asked. "doesn't seem half as dangerous as you made it sound." "The crossing is another quarter-mile up the track," Tahraan said. "You'll know it when you see it, big ugly stone fortress with drawbridges on either side of it. The trick is to get across the first bridge and be at a full run so that you can clear the second before they have the time to drop the iron gate and trap you inside." "Why not just kill them and walk across?" Tarkhan asked. Tahraan's brow furrowed as he glared at the Tarkhan. "Have you lost your mind? there's eight hundred manlings there." "Oh," Tarkhan said, "you're right, we better run the gates. We'd need at least three more goblins to take that many manlings. Should've brought my brothers with us, then we could've done it." "It's bad enough I have to keep you alive," Tahraan said, "but could you do me the favor of not getting me killed?" "Quit whining," Tarkhan said. "I haven't gotten us killed yet. We should go before we're discovered though." Spurring the little pony to a run he shouted back, "You coming or not, you old dog?" Hunkering down into the saddle, Tahraan spurred the wolf on. "Don't worry old girl, I'm not planning on either of us dying today."
goblin_pride 04-09-07, 04:28 PM	"How could you?" Jaalan shouted. "You knew he was a danger and you let him live. How could you have been so stupid?" "Duur'kala," Madoc said, "I will only utter this warning once and you had best pay close attention. I have killed for much less than what you have just done and I am quite certain I am capable of it now. Speak very softly and arrive at the point quickly or I will feel the need to still the wagging of your tongue so that it doesn't disturb others here." "The Bonelord, your former commander, that dabbler in vile arcane arts is free of your dungeons." Jaalan said. "I received word of it just now. The Council is furious that you didn't execute him long ago. He was your prisoner and you didn't do your duty." "He was his own prisoner," Madoc said. "And for what it's worth, he didn't escape my dungeons. Escape would suggest that he was anything other than a guest in my dungeons and that is all that he was. He lived as my guest, housed in my dungeons, a prisoner of his own accord and that is all there is to it." "You have no excuse," Jaalan said, "you were ordered to kill him. I saw the order myself, it was signed by the governor and the Master of the Citadel." "And the esteemed Na'gurta of the Daru'khesh was ordered executed," Madoc said. "One could say that he was. Na'gurta died the day he swore his oaths, the Bonelord serves the will of the emperor. No one would dare to arrest or raise a hand to such a devoted servant as he, no matter how foul the arts he practices in Tuvaar's service. Besides, the order lacked the signatures of the Thirteen." "You dare to cloak him in your own order to protect him from justice?" Jaalan asked. "He's a graverobber." "Yes," Madoc said, "a most useful graverobber and servant of the empire. And if I know my former captain, he is at this moment robbing the graves that I left for him." "You admit to being a part of this foul act?" Jaalan asked. "You've left free a dangerous creature and given him the directions to a cache of bodies for his evil deeds?" "I left him the bodies of criminals," Madoc said. "I suppose they weren't criminals before I made them criminals but that is another matter. The bodies were left so that the Bonelord could do as he does and attack the Razorcrown city in advance of the Emperor's army. Although I hadn't planned for him to set off quite so quickly." "I am going to take this matter to his majesty," Jaalan said. "If you're lucky he may only order you to your grave." "Sadly, Duur'kala, he won't," Madoc said. "I died years ago if you recall. It would've been that dark day that I took the last of the oaths that allowed me to shield the Bonelord from the justice you're screaming for. You, on the other hand are not so protected." "What do you mean?" Jaalan asked. "You can't harm me." "I don't have to," Madoc said. "Your plotting to place Tuvaar on the throne wasn't all that you had in mind. Any of the other insidious plots that you've laid would easily find you dancing at the end of a very short rope. I can produce quite a long list of graves that your plots have filled over the years." "What?" Jaalan said. "I had nothing to do with any of that." "On the contrary," Madoc said, "Hatuur kept meticulous records. Should I find that you've sought to elevate yourself above those of us that needed you to name Tuvaar as the successor, Hatuur's records of all the plots and schemes that you've perpetrated over the years will come to light. I counted thirty-two murders of political rivals, more thievery than I could stomach and one treasonous plot to sell Tuvaar and all of the Khesh'dar to the Razorcrown among your crimes." "You wouldn't," Jaalan said. "He would," Daraak said, stepping from an alcove. "As will I, if I ever hear another mention of any of it. The treasons you've spoken here today were witnessed by a warlord of the empire and my voice carries far more weight than yours, Duur'kala." "Now if you'll excuse us, Jaalan," Madoc said, "We have plans to make regarding the size of his Majesty's domain."
goblin_pride 04-09-07, 04:31 PM	I would venture to guess that my writer's block has come to an end. Any thoughts, criticism or praise on the recent posts?
UnderworldLord 04-09-07, 09:07 PM	Do you have a lot of time on your hands?
goblin_pride 04-10-07, 01:44 AM	Sometimes, yeah. When work doesn't require thinking my mind wanders back to Darguun.
Quoriil 04-10-07, 03:44 PM	From one goblin supporter to another, keep up the good work g_p! I love your developing story and the amount of thought you are putting into Eberronian goblinoids. Thanks!
goblin_pride 04-10-07, 11:17 PM	One aspect that I'm having a particularly hard time trying to come up with a suitable conclusion to is the voices Gaarvan Warchild is hearing. I had originally thought to make the voice of War simply a voice in his own head. The later appearances fit as delusions that he was creating in his own mind because they only appeared when Gaarvan was unconcious. Adding the second voice of an Old One was just so that there would be an internal struggle in the mind of the Wildling Prince, bearer of the standard of War. As I was posting yesterday I began to think about who would move to motivate the goblinoids to open warfare and to what benefit. Are the Old Ones that Gaarvan communes with in his mind the gods of the ancient Dhakaani? Perhaps they're something more sinister. A pair of Riedran Psions reaching out across the mindscape of Dal Quor pushing the goblinoids to make the world chaotic and frightful as a way to foil the Dreaming Dark and force the turning of the age? Unlikely, but still worth thought as a DM, non?
goblin_pride 04-11-07, 12:04 PM	"General," Tu'ulva said, "Have you looked at this disbursing report?" "Hmm?" Taalen said. "Oh, those. I never bother to read those blasted things. I just assume the quartermasters and paymasters know what they're doing and continue on with my day. Why, something interesting?" "Not so much interesting as odd," Tu'ulva said. "I had thought it was an error at first. Those warforged under his majesty's banner are supposed to be drawing monies from the treasury like any other Dhakaani soldier, aren't they? At least the ones that are properly educated and prepared for the field, of course." "Yes," Taalen said, "His Majesty granted them the full rights of a Dhakaani citizen and soldier of the empire, conditional on them passing the entrance exams. What of it?" "I just wondered why the disbursing report has their pay going to Mahaatus'ala," Tu'ulva said. "What?" Taalen asked. "According to the reports," Tu'ulva said, "the Toymaker is collecting the pay for all ninety-six of the warforged in his command." "You're sure it's not an error?" Taalen asked. "Perhaps he's distributing it himself." "I thought of that, sir," Tu'ulva said, "so I went down to their quarters and asked around. None of them are receiving pay at all." "Let me get this straight," Taalen said, "the Toymaker is keeping the coin that is, by rights, the property of the warforged under him?" "It would seem so," Tu'ulva said. "The builders of his unit that repair the damaged ones are drawing their own pay, so it would seem that the Toymaker is stealing from his own troopers, general. Not even Captain Bastion is receiving the pay due to him, which is sizable." Turning to look over his shoulder at the guards standing by the door, Taalen said, "Sergeant, fetch me the Persecutor-general. Tell him I have an urgent matter that demands his attention." "The puzzle doesn't end there, sir," Tu'ulva said. "After seeing the discrepancy in the disbursment records, I went to look at the quartermaster's reports. Did you know that we've been feeding the warforged the same quantity of rations as the Bugbear troopers under Daraak's command?" "I thought they didn't eat?" Taalen asked. "They don't," Tu'ulva said. "I think we need to find where the food being consumed by the warforged is really going. I would suggest sending the Persecutor-general into the soldier's market to solve this puzzle. Not to seem hasty, but theft of his troops' coin is treason, isn't it? If not, theft of his Majesty's food is." "It is indeed, general Tu'ulva," Taalen said, "It is indeed. I think we shall be seeing the little Toymaker executed for his misconduct shortly." "I beg your pardon, sir," Tu'ulva asked, "general?" "Oh sorry," Taalen said. "I go to the front and you assume command of the Citadel this afternoon. Your name was suggested to his highness by me for command here and seconded by Madoc. His Majesty approved and you are now the commanding general of the Citadel. Congratulations." "I don't know what to say, general," Tu'ulva said. "Call me Taalen," Taalen said, "and promise me this traitor will dance at the end of a very short rope within the week." "No," Tu'ulva said. "His troops were wronged by him, he'll be dismembered alive by them. It's an old punishment, but it seems fitting that the newest of the Dhakaani be given the right of an ancient punishment." "I may have been wrong," Taalen said. "You're not suitable as a general, you were born for it."
goblin_pride 04-11-07, 10:17 PM	"Jatuun, I am impressed," Yuni said. "This is amazing." "It was a by-product, General," Jatuun said. "I was attempting to channel the heat from the forges and the kitchens to the living quarters using hollows in the cement flooring when I realized that this spot was on the center of a dozen of the thermal lines. A quick bit of dressing for the cement walls and I was able to reproduce the bath caverns of the Citadel." "What did you use for a water source?" Yuni said. "This water is too warm to be from the dissipation of the heat below and the springs here are far too low to have been piped here." "That was the genius of it, general," Dagdaruun said. "He used enchanted metal rings in water channels for the entire compound to heat the water that runs across the entire area. We have a continuous supply of heated water for our use in the entire compound." "We have running cold water in the entire compound as well, general," Jatuun said. "I had a bit of trouble maintaining the pressure but after talking to one of my sergeants we were able to design a mechanism to shut off the flow at the ends of the piping. I was even able to build a fountain in the marketplace. Now our people won't need to fetch water, we have it piped in directly." "Where does the water come from?" Yuni asked. "There are six central taps in the system," Jatuun said. "Each one draws water from a simple piece of arcane engineering that we found in a shop in the upper levels. the flow of fresh water is continuous." "Won't we have to worry about flooding?" Yuni asked. "Not to worry, general," Jatuun said. "The entire compound is built over a system of drainage that when the fields are prepared at the lower levels can be used as irrigation water. For the moment, though, it drains into the river." "Very well done," Yuni said. "I am impressed. What was it you wanted to ask me after you showed me what Jatuun was woking on Dagdaruun?" "I wondered if it wouldn't be in our interest to build additional baths," Dagdaruun said. "Places the manlings could gather and discuss their plots and schemes in private, all the while attended by very attentive goblins, general." "You would give to our enemies the bath, one of the pinnacles of our culture," Yuni said, "only to use what they say in our baths against them?" "In a word, general," Dagdaruun said, "yes. I know I appear the scoundrel for violating the sanctity of the bath, but they are not Dhakaani so I feel no need to apply our custom to their protection." "A good plan," Yuni said, "do not build them too close to our enclave here. I want this place to be a secret for as long as it takes to make it completely defensible. Do you understand?" "I agree completely," Dagdaruun said. "I was considering building the first of them near the university. That way the manlings would think that it was a custom picked up among the people of the backwards nations by the academics. Better they should think it a harmless vanity adopted by academics, rather than the enterprise it is to gather information."
goblin_pride 04-13-07, 01:54 PM	Kethet Bladesong groaned as he slipped his bulk into the piping hot water of the bath. "I had forgotten what a wonderful feeling that was." he said. "It's been some time," Yuni said, "since you've been able to bathe, I take it." "Yes, general," Bladesong said, settling himself in. "Years, in fact." "When did you leave the comfort of home?" Yuni said. "In my youth," Bladesong began, "I was among the first of the Dhakaani placed by the general Madoc in foreign cities. I was sent into Sharn five, no six years ago. It's odd that it was in this place I found my place among the Dhakaani." "You're the one the historian drones on and on about," Yuni said, "the Duur'kala to be, eh?" "Doubtful," Bladesong said. "I haven't the patience for the writing of songs and my musicianship is terrible if I do say so myself. I will content myself to be as I have found I am in this wretched place, a teacher of children." "How is it you can stand those city goblins?" Yuni asked. "I find them horrible." "They've simply adapted to their living conditions, general," Bladesong said. "I was shopping in the market in the cogs when I overheard two of them conversing about a goblin that stood up to a whole gang in the Mudcaves one day and it dawned on me that they need only proper education and leadership and they could rule this place again." "Did you ever find the goblin they spoke of?" Yuni asked. "No, sadly," Bladesong said. "I wish that I had. His exploits had grown legendary over a short period, he would've been a perfect leader for the city goblins had I been able to find him and convert him to our way." "I'm not sure," Yuni said, "but I think he was Dhakaani. A letter arrived a couple months ago, written by Kethet Trollbait, a black wanderer and nephew to general Madoc. He outlined the very same plan you had as well as the plans to bring Dhakaani culture here in the form of an enclave that the city goblins could look up to as the pinnacle of existence. I had assumed you had met him, considering your plan is almost identical." "No," Bladesong said. "I hatched my scheme from overhearing a pair of city goblins speaking their desire to see one of their kind that could protect them. I met no wanderer. Could you describe this wanderer to an artist friend of mine if I asked, general?" "Probably," Yuni said. "But to what ends, my teacher of children?" "A hero," Bladesong said. "The city goblins were screaming for it in the past, it would seem they had one. If you can describe his face, my artist friend can carve his likeness in stone. Every enclave needs to have it's own heroes, statues they can point to as the founder of their place in the empire. Much like your own people's Jataan the Serene, the people here will have their Kethet Trollbait." "How will a statue help?" Yuni asked. "It's not the statue," Bladesong said, "it's the stories. The stories of this wanderer friend of yours spread quickly while he was here. Heroes are few and far between among these people, having one that protected and defended them caused the story to spread like wildfire. These stories will motivate and teach. If we can tie the founding of this enclave to a Dhakaani that felt these people deserved the emperor's blessing then we can remake the people here into Dhakaani citizens by telling and retelling the stories of your friend." "Wouldn't that deceit be wrong?" Yuni asked. "No more than convincing the first rank in the vanguard that they will break an enemy army themselves," Bladesong said. "As long as the people believe that your friend wanted this for them, they will come to it. If he should return and be found lacking for the virtues that the stories honor him with, we may be forced to kill the goblin to save the hero, but in times of war many goblins will die, no?"
goblin_pride 04-13-07, 03:06 PM	Daraak smiled as Zalmua approached. "It'll be good to put our skills to the test, eh?" "Not entirely," Madoc said. "Is that the sound of doubt in the old crow's voice?" Daraak asked, barely containing his famous chuckle. "Not doubt," Madoc said. "It's worry." "I've never seen you worried," Daraak said. "What troubles you now that you haven't overcome in the past?" "I've never had to worry about emperor or a sole heir's fate," Madoc said. "Don't you worry," Daraak said. "I'll be on the vanguard, I won't let a bit of trouble come to the boy. But he needs to be there, it'll look good to the people that their emperor was at the battle. The story doesn't need him to actually fight, but he needs to be there." "That's not the one I was worried about," Madoc said. "I have Tuvaar well protected. I can guarantee the city will fall quickly and no harm will come to him." "You're worried about Vaarsuva?" Daraak asked, amazed. "I thought you and he didn't exactly enjoy each other's company." "Did you stop paying attention when you were made warlord?" Madoc asked. "Neither you or I can ever rule the empire, but Vaarsuva can. And since Tuvaar has no children, if he manages to somehow get himself killed at Rhukaan Draal, Vaarsuva is our only remaining heir." "It may be better than you think," Zalmua said. "Tuvaar just named Vaarsuva as his heir. We have an emperor even if Tuvaar dies." "That is not better," Madoc said. "Are you up to the task of guarding Vaarsuva from his own foolhardiness? He will try to lead from the front, it's the reason Tuvaar was chosen over him." "She can shield him from the heaviest of the combat, Madoc," Daraak said. "You need to focus on the taking of Rhukaan Draal and not so much on Volaar Draal. Taalen is an excellent general, you've said so yourself. He can ensure Vaarsuva's victory at Volaar Draal. You need to be mindful of your emperor's victory, not his Ironlord's." "Would two dozen heavy infantry to guard his lordship put your mind at rest, general?" Zalmua asked. "A little," Madoc said. "Give them strict orders. If the fight turns, get the Ironlord off the field, no matter how much he protests. I need him alive." "Then it is done," Zalmua said. "I will tell his lordship that it is his Ironguard, chosen by me from my best and sworn to defend his life at all cost." "He might believe that they voluteered for the task," Daraak said. "I wouldn't tell him that or he'll intentionally put himself and them at greater risk." "I was thinking," Madoc said. "If I move the Droaamites into play at Rhukaan Draal I might end the siege faster. What do you think, Daraak?" "A good plan," Daraak said. "It would free us up to move on the manling camp or march on Volaar Draal to increase pressure. Would you like me to send a messenger to fetch captain Tuurek?" "You're too late," Zalmua said. "He left yesterday. Someone has already put the Droaamites into motion." "It would seem it falls to us, then," Madoc said.
goblin_pride 04-15-07, 06:22 PM	"My Lord, your imperial majesty," Jaalan said, "news has arrived from the front." "Could we have the short version?" Madoc said, "we'd like to march before the war ends." Jaalan glared at the old crow while Tuvaar snickered. "General Arkhuul of the Taarka'khesh has made contact with the enemy and sends you a gift, your highness." "Is there any way we could get to the important part," Tuvaar asked. "I'd like to start rebuilding the empire before my funeral." Taking the cue, Madoc took the letter out of the Duur'kala's hand. "He caught Mahaatan of the Kech Sharaat out in the open." Madoc said. "Fifty-six casualties and twenty-three wolves lost. The roads are secure all the way to Volaar Draal. The enemy's scouts were decimated except for a handful that fled into the mountains." "Was he able to get within sight of the city?" Tuvaar asked. "No, but based on the number he encountered," Madoc said, "it looks like Vaarsuva willl have the element of surprise against the Kech Sharaat. Initial figures for enemy loss are three hundred or so. It looks to Longshanks like he got the bulk of their scouts." "Good," Tuvaar said. "so what was the gift?" Opening the sack, Jaalan's face seemed to lose it's color. He dropped it quickly and took a step backwards. Madoc picked up the sack and reached inside. "It would seem," Madoc said, "That Longshanks has sent you an enemy general, sire." Reaching into the sack, Madoc lifted the head from the sack by it's topknot and dropped the sack. Mahaatan's face seemed frozen in a state of fear like none present had ever seen. "Take the head," Tuvaar said, "and place it on the battlements for all to see. It shall be the first of many more glories to come. Our first victory should be celebrated far and wide, but we have no time for it. Madoc, we must march soon so that our trophies may be placed beside this."
lordalm 04-18-07, 06:22 PM	Rhukan Dral: "Is this confirmed?" inquires Vogeren the merchant. "Yes, the changeling was drunk as a skunk, but he shaped Trollbaits face exactly. When not pretending to be a vampire." Shuddered Kelma the pot scrubber. "I am glad I don't have to tell Madoc his nephew is dead," muttered Vogeren. Sharn, a secret Dark Lanterns enclave: "Seems that the goblins who think they are Dhakanni are setting up a bath house in the lower tier, almost in the cogs," commentd Sgt. Locknum. "To what end?" enquired Lt. Ampersan. "Oh to spy on the 'manlings' and gather other intelligence in thier plan to form the goblins of Sharn into a emperial fighting force," said Sgt. Locknum. "Been making inroads into the various goblin factions yet?" asks Lt. Ampersan. "No real idea yet. We know of at least one group, fairly large that isn't to interested, but they don't like talking to any of us either," said Sgt. Locknum. "Well I guess you might want to keep an eye things, while we arrange for some 'intelligence' to fall into the Dhakanni goblns hands via thier new bath house," said a smiling Lt. Ampersan. His form melting and flowing into that of goblin, "G't right on that Guv'ner!" Sang out Sgt. Locknum as he climbed out the sewer hatch he climbed in with. Lt. Ampersan's smile faded to slit on his face as he recast the arcane lock on the grate. Walking deeper into the confusing twist of passages until coming to his quarters. He hastly passed on what he learned to his higher ups through the speaking stone provided for. Then sat back, waiting on his orders. Contemplating thousands of goblins boiling up out of the depths of Sharn....
taski 05-01-07, 12:20 AM	Can't let this thread fall to page two! So, picture time. I drew this goblin artificer trying to get some left over gunk out of a potion vial. http://farm1.static.flickr.com/177/479417633_a2cb2db6c7.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/83776000@N00/479417633/)
The_Robot 05-01-07, 09:30 PM	With my current character being a Morgrave historian and expert in all thigs Dhakanni (he is a goblin, afterall!) I had a suggestion for this thread, now that its over 30 pages...How about a table of contents someplace on the first page? I realize that the OP for this thread doesn't post in it much (at all?) any more, but maybe in Goblin_Pride's first post about halfway down the page? The info is fantastic! And I come here often for refference, but sifting through the lot to find what I need becomes taxing...
Telxon 05-02-07, 10:43 PM	I got a suggestion. Get your Internet connection restored so you can post some more. :P
lordalm 05-05-07, 03:09 PM	I got a suggestion. Get your Internet connection restored so you can post some more. :P Must be one of my gamers who knows that Goblin_Pride is sans internet currently. Oh and yes his character in my game is dead. He's now playing the changeling from the story contained on this thread. I see fun times a coming for the Dhakani in my game, oh yes...:evillaugh
goblin_pride 05-09-07, 10:04 PM	Dox looked out over the blasted remnants of Cyre with a feeling of absolute dread. The goblin in the capital may have given him faulty information. If the information was correct, the black wanderer's party from Breland should be close. He'd found the changeling Jack's body and tracks from the warforged but there was no sign of the Wanderer. "We should get going, toolmaker," Takoor said. "We don't want to be this close when the scent of fresh corpses are in the air." "A good idea," Dox said. "I don't think a wanderer of the Dhakaani would die in such a horrible place anyway." Turning to the scout he said, "We'd better find the druid and make our way back into a more natural surrounding before one of the wretched creatures catches our scent."
goblin_pride 05-09-07, 10:06 PM	I'm using the internet connection of a friend to post currently so regular posts may be difficult, but rest assured, your humble storyteller will continue to spin the yarn as bandwidth permits.
goblin_pride 05-23-07, 10:06 PM	"Quit scratching at that or it won't heal," Kethet Greyhair said. "If I set the bone right, you'll be up and around on it within a few weeks. But if you keep scratching at it, it'll go sour and the bone will disease and I'll have to hack the leg off to save your life. And what use will you be with one leg, you big, dumb ox?" "About as much use as I'll be until this blasted thing heals, I suppose," Dagmaaran said. "I suppose if I'd listened to you in the first place I wouldn't have to endure this accursed itching." Greyhair looked over at the squirming bugbear and said, "I suppose I could've used less poison oak in the plaster." "You didn't," Dagmaaran said, "If I could walk I'd probably strangle you for that." "It's a blessing for me that you can't then," Greyhair said."I didn't, however, use poison oak in the plaster at all. Although it would've caused it to dry faster. Had you been a goblin I would've used so much that you'd be cursing me to the end of your days. What in the empress' name made you ignore my warning about the ogre?" "I thought I could take him," Dagmaaran said. "There was just the one." "Just the one," Greyhair said, "that everyone else in the raiding party was smart enough to steer clear of and let the archers take. But not Dagmaaran, that oaf charged headlong into it to prove he was a mighty warrior and took a broken femur for a prize. I'm hoping the litter ride back to Dargaal'tar was comfortable, because you're going to be paying your brothers for that for months after you're walking again." "Don't remind me," Dagmaaran said. "They're already considering which duties I'll be taking when I'm up and around again." "First will be swimming, climbing and running to regain the strength you'll lose in that leg while the bone heals," Greyhair said, "followed closely by archery practice so that you can learn how to take down an ogre without repeating this exercise. And then, just so the lesson is complete, you'll be spending six months with the scouts so that you learn proper skirmishing tactics." "Six months?" Dagmaaran asked. "But how can I do that and maintain my place in the third assault company?" "I would enjoy my leisure while I heal, if I were you," Greyhair said, "Because your days will be quite long afterwards. You need a lesson in size and tactics and those five scouts that dropped the ogre that was about to finish you off are the ones to teach it. You didn't see any of them carried back here, did you?" "Point taken," Dagmaaran said. "Hmm," Greyhair said, "Perhaps there is a brain in that skull of yours after all. Don't fret, I'll forage something for the itching on my next patrol ride. Until then, you'll have to suffer it."
goblin_pride 05-23-07, 10:09 PM	"Who let this Lhazaarite peacock onto my parapets?" Madoc bellowed. "It's nice to see you as well," Daarvos said, "little brother. Where's the cripple that always slinks around in your shadow?" "Dead," Madoc said. "His reach was a bit more than his grasp. Much like another brother of mine. Which reminds me, aren't you still exiled for thievery?" "Pardoned," Daarvos said. "I received it this very morning. It would seem that his highness is in need of a pirate. Rather good timing too, I was facing rather poor prospects where I was." "Poor prospects?" Madoc asked. "Is that what they're calling the gallows outside of Darguun?" "Pretty much," Daarvos said. "My crew and I were considering other seas to ply our trade in when I chanced upon a rather pretty little Dhakaani general in Sharn. You'd be amazed at who she thinks her father is though." "You didn't tell her, I hope," Madoc said. "Certainly not," Daarvos said. "But I can if it would cause you considerable difficulties." "That it would," Madoc said, "Name your price." "Ah, right to the point," Daarvos said. "A company of your engineers so that I can build a secure harbor at the south end of the Torlaac Moor, you'll need to send another company to link up by road when the harbor is built. I don't want to risk anchoring his highness' fleet in the unsafe waters of the wyvern's spur." "Fleet?" Madoc asked. "You have one ship. That's not a fleet." "Ahh, always seeing the bucket half empty," Daarvos said. "I have two tons of coin and an imperial mandate to build a fleet of light, fast raiding ships to defend the seas around Darguun. His highness doesn't wish to see an army like those Droaamites arrive by sea again." "A pirate defending us from attacks from the sea?" Madoc asked. "An admiral," Daarvos said, "protecting our shores and ensuring that our trade ships make their journeys safely. Although I see considerable difficulties on the horizon for other nations' shipping."
goblin_pride 05-23-07, 10:11 PM	"Casualties?" Dar'gaal asked, looking up from the inventory of plunder from the raids. "Six taking the main caravan," Barek'dan said, "another four trying to grab the paywagons and then a further seven retaking the paywagons from what appear to be Dhakaani goblins." "Other raiders?" Daar'gal asked. "No," Barek'dan said, "when the orcs and ogres tryed to make off with the paywagons they crossed their path. A chance encounter, I think. I gave orders to take them alive when I saw the markings on the face of one of them, an Elo'khesh, I think. Unless I'm mistaken, the one that got into the center of my troops bears the markings of a pilferer of the fourteenth infiltrator company." "What was a pilferer of a reserve company doing this far out?" Daar'gal asked. "Did they have orders on them?" "I didn't search them," Barek'dan said. "I was hesitant to disarm them, even. If they were sent to reinforce our position I didn't wish to offend them. We took one hobgoblin and two goblins, the other hobgoblin and bugbear ran when the fight turned on them. We injured them badly taking them." "Fatalities?" Daar'gal asked. "No," Barek'dan said. "It was rather close for one though. That many arrows would've dropped most of the reserve company troopers I've seen, especially an archer. I sent the scouts to dress their wounds. I was hoping Greyhair would be able to talk to them when they regain consciousness." "A wise choice," Daar'gal said. "His skill in these matters is quite good. I'm rather surprised that he doesn't hold considerable rank." Barek'dan looked at captain Daar'gal, dumbfounded. "You don't know, do you?" he asked. "What?" Daar'gal asked. "He holds a supreme rank among the Khesh'dar," Barek'dan said. "That little scout is a general in the Black legion of the Khesh'dar goblins." "Nonsense," Daar'gal said. "There's no regalia here for he and his scouts to be guarding and this place is certainly no palace." "Have you ever looked at your troops, Captain?" Barek'dan asked. "You have the firstborn sons of more than a dozen Marghuul chieftains here. Half your sergeants would be captains under any general. You didn't notice that we chose this place to make permanent camp because of the statue of the Word-Bearer we found here?" "What are you getting at?" Daar'gal asked. "You are an heir to the throne, Captain," Barek'dan said. "You were sent here as hostage to show the good will of the Khesh'dar and the Dhakaani. The Marghuul allied themselves because you were sent here. Every one of the troops here is sworn to protect your life with our own. Your command is Daraak's third assault company."
goblin_pride 05-23-07, 10:14 PM	"This is important, Tu'ulva," Taalen said. "You must understand." "I do," Tu'ulva said, "but I don't understand why I must swear the oaths of the black brothers." "From the time of the Dhakaan herself," Taalen said, "the Duur'kala took from among the goblins thirteen of the fiercest and most loyal to guard her. All the generals of the khesh'dar since those ancient times have sworn oaths to the grandmaster of the order of the Black Dhakaan. It is an oath to uphold the way of the Dhakaan sworn to those who serve the word of her most exalted highness." "Go over it again," Tu'ulva said. "We'll descend into the chamber of the Black Dhakaan," Taalen said. "It's a statue cut from the belly of an ancient statue of a long-dead war god of the khesh'dar. The marble of the statue is stained black from the blood of countless thousands of generals and brothers of the order over the ages." "I understand," Tu'ulva said, "It's an old statue, go on." "Look, I can just let you go in without any preparation if you'd like," Taalen said. "No," Tu'ulva said, "continue, please." "First is the question of Law," Taalen said. "The high Justice will ask if you serve the Word of Law." "To which I answer," Tu'ulva said. "I was born under the law, I have lived under the law, I will die under the law and I serve the law as the law serves all Dhakaani." "Next is the bloodletting," Taalen said. "The keeper of the blades will offer you a knife of the order and ask if you would shed your blood in the Dhakaan's honor." "To which I answer," Tu'ulva said, "Mine is the blood of the ancient Dhakaani, I give it freely as did my ancestors before me." "Very good," Taalen said. "after you cut across the palm of your left hand, clench your fist to draw out the blood and the Grandmaster will hold out a golden bowl to catch the blood from your hand." "As he catches my offering," Tu'ulva said, "I say, 'I give of my flesh to the uncrowned empress, her way is my way from this day to the end of my days.' Is that right?" "Exactly," Taalen said. "The grandmaster will then add your blood to the blood that stains the Black Dhakaan and you tuck the knife into your belt so that others can see your loyalty." "I have just one question," Tu'ulva said. "Who is the Grandmaster of the black brothers? It can't be Madoc, he's at the Daanalor. Na'gurta is fled the citadel, so it can't be him. Longshanks is in the field, so he can't be the one. Who leads the order of the Black Dhakaan?" Taalen looked at Tu'ulva for a moment and said, "Brother Daanvar."
goblin_pride 05-23-07, 10:16 PM	That should keep you addicts sated for a few days more.
goblin_pride 06-10-07, 06:07 PM	Dagdaruun offered up the tray of sweets to the manling. "Something sweet? A delicacy from my homeland, candied termites," he said. "Try them, the field goblins will spend hours at work for just one such tasty morsel." "No," the manling said, his face turning green at the thought of goblin food. "You're sure?" Dagdaruun asked. "I have no stomach for them myself normally, but a treat from home is a treat from home," he said, popping one of the candies into his mouth. Pausing as the manling drank deeply again from the jug of spiced wine he continued. "Rice we will have aplenty when the first of the spring harvest comes in. What I am in need of is more cut stone for the buildings to house the harvests as they await sale or shipment." "The mountains around the Silln Plain are a good source of granite, as long as the hobbers keep to themselves," the manling said, without thinking. "Begging your pardon, I meant no offense, but the hobgobs in that place are a bit odd." "No offense taken," Dagdaruun said, his cheerful smile hiding his true thoughts."The hobgoblins in this part of the world lack civilty and social skills, I understand. Granite, you say?" "Yeah," the manling said, "most of that range is granite. A simple task to quarry whatever you need from there and ship here." "Granite doesn't exactly give off the right impression," Dagdaruun said. "I was hoping to offer a bit more of a striking first impression. Marble would do the trick. Something in a nice rose marble would be most excellent." "Marble is excellent," the manling said, "but costly." "We have the coin to weigh against your labor," Dagdaruun said. "I can even send a workcrew and a couple of my own stonemasons to assist in the selection of decent stone. Return tomorrow and we can settle on a price." As the manling rose to leave Dagdaruun extended his hand. "It is the custom I believe, in your country to shake the hand at the prospect of the close of a business arrangement, yes?" The manling stammered a weak "yes" and shook the hobgoblin's hand and left rather quickly. Turning to the goblin sitting to his left, Dagdaruun said, "He'll try to steer you to inferior quality stone. Do not accept anything that you wouldn't use to build a palace. I'll not pay a premium price for an inferior grade of stone." "Of course," Haspaar Stonecarver said, "I wouldn't wish to disappoint his highness by building a governor's palace from low-quality stone. But I think he is under the impression will be buying far more than we truly need. We are building in concrete and casing in marble, aren't we?" "Yes, of course," Dagdaruun said. "That's why when the workcrews go to his quarries you're be hauling the gravel away for them. Tell them it ensures a smoother finish on the stone if it's not dragged across the gravel." "I see," Haspaar said. "We buy their stone and take their gravel for free. Thus we get the bulk of our material for concrete from them as well, at no cost." "You're beginning to learn the merchant's arts, Master Stonecarver," Dagdaruun said. "Hopefully the negotaitions with the slate merchants are so fruitful."
goblin_pride 06-10-07, 07:06 PM	"My apologies, general," Bladesong said, "I do not wish to bother you will irrelevant worries. It could be that I have merely misplaced them." "Nothing is irrelevant," Yuni said. "My uncle once told me that all things are relevant and all things are linked. If the books you feel you may have misplaced were valuable, Taluur can find the scoundrel that absconded with them. Your pet project is valuable to his highness and the empire and all due effort will be made to ensure it's success. Now what were the tomes you think are missing?" "Three books of the writings of Arkhuul the Sage," Bladesong began, "they have no real value except to a student of our ways. There was, however, a complete copy of Kethet the Younger's histories of the Razorcrown wars illuminated by Garen'dan the Mad. That would fetch quite a hefty price among the antiquities collectors of the manlings." "You brought a priceless tactical manual here?" Yuni asked. "It is only a tactical manual to those who can decipher it," Bladesong said. "Any other who would read it will find only a dry history of a long-forgotten war in the middle of the empire's history. The manlings will not understand the lessons hidden in it's passages. The illuminations by the mad monk make the book far more valuable, however. It could easily be sold for an emperor's ransom. I would be willing to wager that it is worth many times more than my weight in gold, possibly even platinum." "Again I wonder why you brought such a valuable relic of our people with you to this place," Yuni said. "It was a gift to me from a former commander, general," Bladesong said. "When I was sent here, I was told to gather my belongings, that gift was my most treasured and prized belonging. I considered it my life's work to guard it and to someday pass it on to a student worthy of the task. A task, I might add, I seem to have failed." "Your failure was not in the loss," Yuni said. "Where you failed was in not making others aware of the book's obvious value. Taluur could have easily assisted you in it's safe-keeping had he known of it. I am sorry, brother, you have failed, but not in the fashion you would assume. Who knew of it?" "A handful of my students at the most," Bladesong said. "I know of five that had seen me reading it. The two that first joined Taluur and three others that now serve Yatzuur." "City goblins that were chosen to as pilferers?" Yuni asked. "I believe we have found the place to begin Taluur's search." "If it was one of them," Bladesong said, "I am to blame for not seeing their fault as well, general. I accept any punishment that you see fit for me." "For your fault, you are discharged from military service." Yuni said. "I understand, general," Bladesong said, "I will gather my things and prepare to return home and a life in the fields." "I was not finished," Yuni said."For your quickness to accept the punishment for this failure, you are to oversee the construction of a library next to the school so that such valuable tomes can be safely and securely stored. Your task from this day forth is to guard the library and school from any threat. Additionally, you will receive fifty lashes from the scourge for failure to make your commanders aware of the presence of such a valuable from our culture in our little outpost." "I am rewarded for my failure?" Bladesong asked. "Rewarded for your loyalty and willingness to accept punishment for failure," Yuni said. "Do not fail me again. Once Taluur has the culprit in hand, you will scourge him to death for stealing from another Dhakaani in the middle of the square. I expect you to carry out that task with deliberate care. Forgiving a Dhakaani willing to take the blame for the faults of his brethren is one thing, but you will not go easy on this wretch that would steal from his brothers. It is an especially heinous crime to steal from all Dhakaani a priceless heirloom of our culture, for that the thief will die horribly and publicly. Taluur can show you how to use seawater on the scourge to increase the torment of it's kiss." "Yes, general," Bladesong said, meekly. "I expect a full report on this matter and a letter of apology to his highness within an hour of the culprit's execution," Yuni said. "I will leave the disposition of this book to his majesty. You are it's caretaker until we receive a reply from his majesty on the matter."
goblin_pride 06-10-07, 07:35 PM	"That makes a dozen merchants he's met with today," Taluur said. "Commander, I must protest this. With so many coming here, keeping this enclave a secret will prove difficult." "Secrecy is no longer a concern," Yuni said. "Finally sent you word, did they?" Jatuun asked. "You knew?" Yuni asked. "I still hold Taalen's confidence, even so far from home." Jatuun said. "The emperor was crowned before the ships that arrived yesterday departed from home. While I may serve here, general, I still take my orders from those in command in Darguun. Dagdaruun is allowed to increase our standing here as he will because the war has already begun at home. If the war goes badly, our secret enclave's survival is severely limited." "And if the war goes well?" Taluur asked. "If all goes according to plan," Jatuun said, "you are promoted to Persecutor-general, Yuni becomes Governor-general and this becomes an embassy of the empire of Dhakaan." "What do you mean by severely limited?" Yuni asked. "I am the final cut for Sharn, general," Jatuun said."If the war goes badly I am to send as many of you into the mountains along the Silln plain as I can and topple as many of Sharn's towers as I can with the few agents I have here and as many of Yatzuur's pilferers as are useful to me. If the armies in the field are unable to gain control of Darguun, I am to make the Brel-men fear to attack by destroying as much of this city as I can." "Taalen ordered this?" Yuni said, shocked. "No," Jatuun said. "My orders came to me from another, Taalen was simply the messenger. Madoc is aware of my role here, I felt you should know as well, general." "There are hundreds of thousands in this city," Yuni said, "you would kill them all to cover the escape of this small enclave?" "I would kill many more," Jatuun said, "to cover the escape of one Dhakaani female heavy with child, general. This enclave has many Dhakaani, male and female, if the empire is lost in Darguun, they will hide in the mountains overlooking the Silln plain until time to rise again and rebuild. Would I consider sending one hundred thousand manlings into the grave to protect the shattered remnants of the empire? It is a foolish question. More to the point, wouldn't you?"
goblin_pride 06-10-07, 08:32 PM	Na'gurta looked at the tiny tomb. "What have we here? A ossuary, I think. A house of bone for his highness to have an army issue forth from." Turning to his assistants he said, "The two pavillion tents there and there, smaller tents for yourselves at the cardinal points. I want pallisades at one hundred feet from the smaller tents. Sergeant, you will have help shortly erecting the pallisade." Turning to the only three goblins not clad head-to-toe in black he said, "begin laying out the skeletons in the two pavillions, I want as many animated today as possible. I will join you in the task in a few moments, I must find the Crow's courier." Stepping into the gloom of the little stone building, Na'gurta paused to let his eyes adjust to the darkness. The bundles of bone wouldn't be the clue he sought, that was the army to build. Walking down the rough-cut stone steps he ventured deeper. Towards the bottom, in the pitch black, he found a simple coffin. Lifting the lid, he peered inside. He muttered a few unintelligle words and waved his hands, drawing the arcane energies into being. "Speak, clerk," he said. "What is your brother's plan for the bodies he has left me?" "Rhukaan Draal," Hatuur's corpse hissed, sounding distant. "The dead shall scatter the defenders of the city so that the infiltrators can sow discord in the fortress at the city's heart." "And where is the emperor to be?" Na'gurta asked. "Safely at the Daanalor," Hatuur hissed. "Madoc will make sure to delay the Imperial host for long enough for the dead to take their final march." "And the messenger?" Na'gurta asked. "To be added to the army of the dead in the front rank," Hatuur hissed, "as a guarantee of the message being destroyed and lost to the shades of Dolurrh." "A wise precaution," Na'gurta said. "Although, I dare say that it is to ensure the old Crow's order is never known. Is Danvaar aware of the Crow's plan?" "No," Hatuur hissed. "I was the only one aware of the plan. Madoc fears betrayal." "Just as his brother did," Na'gurta said. "How many of the heirs survived the teaching?" "Three," Hatuur hissed. "Vaarsuva, named Warlord. Tuvaar, the likely emperor. Daargal, sent as hostage to the Marghuul lords." "Good," Na'gurta said. "Three live and we need one. I hope your brother's plan succeeds and we can begin rebuilding, but he's taken care to ensure that other avenues exist for us if this plan should fail. Rest, clerk. I will need your memories again." "Yes," Hatuur hissed, "my master."
goblin_pride 06-10-07, 08:56 PM	"Drop the protocol, Madoc," Tuvaar said. "I get more than enough of it from the idiot Duur'kala. What are the odds of winning?" "If Vaarsuva is bright," Madoc said, "he'll get himself invited into Volaar Draal instead of having to lay siege to it." "Not likely," Tuvaar said. "He marched out spoiling for a fight. He'll make certain he gets one even if they welcome him with open arms." "I thought the same thing," Madoc said. "It doesn't help that I don't know where the Droaamites are. Or even who ordered them there." "Assume the worst," Tuvaar said. "Where would they harm us the most?" "Without doubt, Volaar Draal," Madoc said, rubbing the bridge of his nose. "Taalen's bright, if Vaarsuva can rout the Kech Sharaat from their siege, he'd find a way to get our besieging army invited in and hailed as heroes for relieving the siege of the city." "Only to betray them when it becomes possible, eh?" Tuvaar asked. "Of course," Madoc said, "he is one of my best infiltrators. I've taught him a few tricks, not that he uses them all properly. If they can get themselves invited into the city it'll fall in hours instead of weeks. But Vaarsuva is stubborn and wants to fight. If the Droaamites were ordered there, Vaarsuva's host will find the same defenses the Kech Sharaat have been trying to breach every summer for the last decade." "Impregnable," Tuvaar said, "wasn't that the would you used to describe that city?" "It'll tie up ten thousand easily," Madoc said. "I had hoped to have more troops here before the idiot marched. He's too headstrong. I would've made sure we didn't have to worry about the Ghaal'dar first. At least their city isn't walled, we can take it fairly quickly." "All but the fortress at it's heart," Tuvaar said. "Exactly," Madoc said. "That's the only problem with Rhukaan Draal. The fortress at it's heart is as strong as the defenses of Volaar Draal. The outer defenses of the city will be easy to take individually, once one of the outer forts falls it weakens the overall defense. The city's defense will collapse in stages as we advance on the middle. I had hoped to hurl the Droaamites at it and ensure the casualties in the first wave weren't Dhakaani." "What if it all goes horribly wrong?" Tuvaar asked. "Then I flee into the Seawall with you," Daraak said, "and Madoc takes the crown and flees for the Byeshk or Ironroot range of mountains." "I didn't hear you come in," Madoc said. "It won't come to that, I think. Besides, if it goes that badly, you'll both be dead. I have another being groomed to take my place hiding the crown, I'll die defending the last palace at Serenity. If it all goes wrong we are lost and others will flee to rebuild." "Ahh," Tuvaar said. "That's why Yuni's project at Dura'sharaat is so important to you." "That, sire," Madoc said, "is poisoning an enemy's well. I have troops in Dura'sharaat to bring down half the manling's city and make certain that the Ghaal'dar are blamed. The outpost will flee into another range of mountains if word comes of your death." "And the manlings pour an army into Darguun," Tuvaar said, "to avenge their countrymen that died at the Ghaal'dar hands." "That should," Madoc said, "keep the Ghaal'dar off of us while we get hosts of our people into the safety of the mountains." "How many wars have you been planning?" Tuvaar asked. "Six or seven," Madoc said. "If we succeed, the Droaamites pour into the Brel-man kingdom. That should keep them off of us long enough to close the borders of Darguun and get a firmer grasp on it. The war with the Ghaal'dar is obvious. Vaarsuva's war with the Kech Volaar and Kech Sharaat is his own, I didn't plan those. I did take into account how his success or failure will affect mine. The Marghuul war with the Ghaal'dar is mine as is the trade war that's going to start in Dura'sharaat and the war between the Brel-men and the Ghaal'dar if we lose our war." "That's only six," Tuvaar said. "But it would seem you've been busy." "You forgot the relatively bloodless revolution in Khesh'dar council," Madoc said. "Without which you would never have ascended the throne." "A whole clan died in that one," Daraak said. "How can you call it bloodless?" "I said relatively," Madoc said. "It had to be anyway, I needed that clan's position of prominence to get another clan into a trade war in the manling kingdoms as well as fresh coin in the imperial treasury." "Trade wars," Tuvaar said. "You're beginning to sound like a merchant, old friend." "Trade war is essential," Madoc said. "The manlings and others have clans among them that bear arcane markings useful in trade. In order to force them to heel we need to control more wealth than we do and be able to overpower them in matters of trade." "If you say so," Tuvaar said, "my architect of war. I will attempt to hold onto my life as long as possible to keep your mind swimming in plans. Come Daraak, we should prepare to march." "You won't have the supplies you need to support an army on the march for another week," Madoc said. "How did you know?" Daraak said. "I only just got the quartermaster's report." "I needed the week," Madoc said, smiling. "You can wait."
BrotherDog 06-16-07, 06:56 AM	Not meaning to break the flow, but I have a question to offer for discussion. Do any of you feel that Nilbogism exists on Eberron? What are your thoughts on this? The possibility should exist due to those nasty Daelkyr, even though this could be something that backfired on them.
your_last_battle 06-24-07, 10:20 PM	I hear ya on that brother I've made the remains of the Dhakanni ruins under modern Sharn a major role in the plot device of my current campaign, and it would be nice to have some more info on the Dhakanni empire. In fact one of my players is a Hobgoblin Scholar (Activist) hoping to become a spiritual leader for the Darguun. On the other hand the vagueness of the Goblin Empire has allowed to make some creative details of this ancient Empire. Like how in my campaign most of the designs for magical items commonly produced by House Cannith amoung with most of its traditions were founded by a Dhakanni Tinker guild known as the "Cannit" or "forgers" in goblini tongue. So I've been able to formed a rich history for my PCs to discover that they won't find in any splat book or dragon article. If I ever manage to go pro with my stuff I'd love to be a part of the group that puts gives some well diserved love to the gobliniods of Eberron.:D