Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gruul 09-25-07, 11:25 PM	Gamers of Highland Park, CA turn back! This may be your DM writing... I'm running a campaign in which a Kharnnathi warlord is attempting to destroy either Sharn or Wroat in Breland so as to cause war to once again break out across Khorvaire. His reasoning behind attacking Breland is that it's industrial might poses the greatest threat to Kharnnath in wartime. Does this seem logical?
JohnBiles 09-25-07, 11:31 PM	Gamers of Highland Park, CA turn back! This may be your DM writing... I'm running a campaign in which a Kharnnathi warlord is attempting to destroy either Sharn or Wroat in Breland so as to cause war to once again break out across Khorvaire. His reasoning behind attacking Breland is that it's industrial might poses the greatest threat to Kharnnath in wartime. Does this seem logical? My suggestion would be that he destroy Sharn and find some way to make it look like Thrane did it. Then he can get Breland to attack Thrane, so they weaken each other, then move in and pick up the pieces. (I incline to think Thrane, with its superior number of Paladins and Clerics compared to other countries, is the biggest threat to the undead armies of Karnnath.)
Alex_ 09-27-07, 05:18 PM	Gamers of Highland Park, CA turn back! This may be your DM writing... I'm running a campaign in which a Kharnnathi warlord is attempting to destroy either Sharn or Wroat in Breland so as to cause war to once again break out across Khorvaire. His reasoning behind attacking Breland is that it's industrial might poses the greatest threat to Kharnnath in wartime. Does this seem logical? I don't think anyone of the Five Nations would start a war they didn't think they could win or finish. If he's afraid of Breland's industrial strength, he should cripple Breland's industrial strength- not just strike at them in a way that is guaranteed to cause them to use it. I like John's suggestion that he would instead try to make it look like Thrane (or even Aundair) did it, and let them fight. However if you want Karrnath to actually fight against someone, I'd make it Thrane. The other nations don't like them, but Thrane (and Valenar) pretty much hate them, and are more willing to use any excuse to go war. If Thrane and Karrnath go at it, Aundair and Breland are less likely to want to get involved.
Yakman 09-28-07, 11:18 PM	I think it's a great idea. Breland came out of the war with the least amount of damage, and Sharn is now the economic capital of Khorvaire. For Karrnath, whose military might and disdain of individual liberties, it might be a natural opponent... Good idea. Go for it.
Cifer 10-01-07, 06:28 PM	If Thrane and Karrnath go at it, Aundair and Breland are less likely to want to get involved. I doubt that, for the simple reason that any clear winner would probably have enough ressources to dominate the rest of Khorvaire, especially in the case of Karrnath and its necromancers.
Ashlock 10-02-07, 11:22 AM	Sharn could certainly be an economic hub for Khorvaire, but it's hardly central. I think it would be difficult to attack the city, since as a whole it would be an unassailable fortress of towers. It would be pretty hard to lead an army against the city and try to hide the identity of said army. However, terrorist activities within the city might do the trick. Especially ones that you try to pin on one of the embassies in Ambassador Towers.
Alex_ 10-02-07, 12:46 PM	I doubt that, for the simple reason that any clear winner would probably have enough ressources to dominate the rest of Khorvaire, especially in the case of Karrnath and its necromancers. Thrane and Karrnath haven't expressed any interest in taking over the rest of Khorvaire, even in a long term goal either. That's Aundair's thing, and its pretty much the only nation left that's interested in war for the original reason: placing an heir of Galifar on the throne of a united Khorvaire. Even if they wanted to, in a war between Thrane/Karrnath, the winner setting up a prolonged occupation and trying to incorporate enemy forces into their own is going to face a lot more reistance than if they marched into somehwere else. Both sides are not only amongst the most martial and passionate (I'd sooner die than give up), but they hate each other more than pretty much any other two nations on Khorvaire. Furthermore, Aundair doesn't like either Thrane or Karrnath, although it probably dislikes Thrane more. Breland doesn't seem to favor one any more than the other either. Neither Aundair nor Breland seems to be too concerned about invasions by their neighbors, and I doubt a Thrane/Karrnathi conflict will make them jump to the conclusion that one or the other has suddenly gained ambitions regarding taking over the continent. It's two forces that you know have always hated each other getting into yet another fight "over there". Sort of like how nobody seems to bug Valenar, even though it constantly launches attacks against Karrnath, and after they're defeated, will simply turn to the next most powerful military force on Khorvaire and launch attacks against them. Nobody really likes Karrnath or Valenar enough to get involved, so they just kind of let it happen.
Cifer 10-02-07, 08:19 PM	Thrane and Karrnath haven't expressed any interest in taking over the rest of Khorvaire, even in a long term goal either. Right. It's not like both of them have been willingly involved in a hundred-year-long war with the dominance over Khorvaire at stake. Their present rulers may not have shown any actions in that direction, but what they may think is something else entirely. If Karrnath wins against Thrane, it's got the graveyards and the dead soldiers of two nations as ressources. Vice-versa, you'd have Thrane with the armories and industrial power of Karrnath. Of course, the occupation will sap some strength, but it would still be a massive boost. Sort of like how nobody seems to bug Valenar, even though it constantly launches attacks against Karrnath, and after they're defeated, will simply turn to the next most powerful military force on Khorvaire and launch attacks against them. Nobody really likes Karrnath or Valenar enough to get involved, so they just kind of let it happen. I'd rather say "Nobody thinks Valenar to be powerful enough to deal serious damage to Karrnath, but nobody's stupid enough to engage the crazy elves on their home ground".
Vharuck 10-03-07, 09:33 AM	If Thrane and Karrnath start duking it out, I'd say Aundair would wait for the majority of Thrane's forces to mobilize to the Eatern front. Then Aundair would make a simple alliance with Karrnath ("You hate them, I hate them, let's hate them together!") and invade Thrane under the pretense of reclaiming the land Thrane "annexed" from Aundair during the Last War. Breland does seem rather reclusive in the affairs of the Five Nations. If I remember correctly, their biggest adversary during the Last War was Cyre. Now the only one of the Five Nations bordering Breland is Aundair, and those two are on pretty friendly terms. I'd guess that Breland would stay out of any fighting between Aundair, Thrane, and Karrnath as long as it could. As for Karrnath's military might, I think people here are forgetting two things: #1. Karrnath, since Kaius' messy break-off from Vol, no longer officially embraces undead units. They still have them and use them (Why trash soldiers they spent good money and time on?), but creating new ones is frowned upon, if not forbidden (I can't remember right now). Karrnath's military forces initially will include about the same ratio of living to undead soldiers as it did around the end of the Last War, but over time, as the Karrnathi undead are whittled away, living soldiers will make up all of its troops. #2. Karrnath is the military powerhouse of Khorvaire, hands down. There's a reason every scion of the King of Galifar went to Rekkenmark Academy before the Last War; Karrnath's military training, from the mandatory time every citizen must serve to the education of elite generals, is unsurpassed. The reason Karrnath struggled during the Last War was because of non-war disasters that hit hard in the nation, like the plague and famine. Now that Karrnath has recovered from these tragedies, defeating it in a war is no small task. Unless divided between two or more fronts, Karrnath will utterly dominate Thrane, in my opinion.
Cifer 10-03-07, 09:43 AM	#1. Karrnath, since Kaius' messy break-off from Vol, no longer officially embraces undead units. They still have them and use them (Why trash soldiers they spent good money and time on?), but creating new ones is frowned upon, if not forbidden (I can't remember right now). Karrnath's military forces initially will include about the same ratio of living to undead soldiers as it did around the end of the Last War, but over time, as the Karrnathi undead are whittled away, living soldiers will make up all of its troops. Not quite - undead are still researched upon and the citizens still don't have a right to a proper burial. It's not done quite as openly right now, but Karrnath still has the option and probably the will to use undead on a strategic scale. Further, Karrnath has a new advantage: No other nation has the possibility to create tireless soldiers at will anymore since warforged would have to be conscripted and/or paid, but they can't be bought.
Alex_ 10-03-07, 05:48 PM	Right. It's not like both of them have been willingly involved in a hundred-year-long war with the dominance over Khorvaire at stake. The war started that way. By the end, that wasn't the primary reason for fighting. Their present rulers may not have shown any actions in that direction, but what they may think is something else entirely. True. However, to assume that the nations that have hated each other for generations each other and have shown no interest in continental conquest are getting into a fight each other as part of a plan for continental conquest is is a pretty big (or paranoid) leap. If Karrnath wins against Thrane, it's got the graveyards and the dead soldiers of two nations as ressources. Vice-versa, you'd have Thrane with the armories and industrial power of Karrnath. Thrane is a theocracy devoted to a faith that condones the use of violent force against Evil, and ideals of self sacrifice and devotion to a religious cause (*caugh*Iraq/Soviets in Afghanistan/Chechnya*cough*). Likewise, Karrnath is a very militant nation with very strong traditions of warfare, nationalism, and the idea that one of the greatest honors is fighting to the death or your country (*cough*Post-WWII Japan/Soviet Union/North Vietnam*cough*) only, you can be risen to fight again. Also, the invading country wouldn't just be an enemy, it would be the other nation's enemy for over a century, representing many things the other is morally opposed to almost on violent grounds. Military occupation is just begging for a prolonged and incredibly violent resistance/insurgency short of some kind of extreme advantage, but the disparity between Thrane and Karrnathi forces is not that great. Neither nation has to fall and get taken over by the other for there to be a winner or a loser, and given that neither nation has ever expressed a desire to actually rule their enemy's land, people, and resources of the other, a war of conquest seems less likely. Of course, the occupation will sap some strength, but it would still be a massive boost. Not just any fallen individual can become a Karrnathi Skeleton or Zombies, but they can make grunts and enemy units into normal Undead though. Either way, this in and of itself is not a reason to adopt strategies and military goals that allow for high casualties. Undead make great guards and defenders, but pretty lousy soldiers, and even worse police/law enforcement, which an occupation would require. Karrnath turned to them largely out of desperation and a desire to defend themselves, but there weren't many instances where they used Undead to move in and take terrain, complete specific objectives, or deal with the locals as occupiers. Also, they were used back when the Blood of Vol was the national faith of Karrnath and much more prominent. The current socio-political climate doesn't lend itself as much to the use of Undead troops. That's why much of the development of Undead tends to be carried out in secret, even from Kaius himself. Plus, Thrane has the highest concentration of Divine Spellcasters on Khorvaire, as well as a disproportionately high number of individuals who may not be spell casters, but are still trained to fight Evil stuff like Undead, and the equipment that entails. I'd rather say "Nobody thinks Valenar to be powerful enough to deal serious damage to Karrnath, but nobody's stupid enough to engage the crazy elves on their home ground". Short term damage, no, but Valenar is pretty much devoted to war, and until someone goes in and attacks them (which they want) they'll never stop. Even if they don't roll into Korth, that's still a significant problem. If Thrane and Karrnath start duking it out, I'd say Aundair would wait for the majority of Thrane's forces to mobilize to the Eatern front. Then Aundair would make a simple alliance with Karrnath ("You hate them, I hate them, let's hate them together!") and invade Thrane under the pretense of reclaiming the land Thrane "annexed" from Aundair during the Last War. I don't think they like Karrnath that much either. In either case, I don't see the need for pretenses, since they've always expressed interest in reclaiming land lost to Thrane (namely Thaliost). Move in some troops while Thrane is concentrated on another front. If any Thrane forces attempt to fight back, they'll be divided and at a disadvantage. Take Thaliost/territory and defend it until you can negotiate a cease fire or treaty of some kind.
Cifer 10-03-07, 09:02 PM	The war started that way. By the end, that wasn't the primary reason for fighting. What was it then? True. However, to assume that the nations that have hated each other for generations each other and have shown no interest in continental conquest are getting into a fight each other as part of a plan for continental conquest is is a pretty big (or paranoid) leap. As of 998, the fighting is done for only two years. Actually, in most material I've read, everyone expects the war to go on somewhen. Military occupation is just begging for a prolonged and incredibly violent resistance/insurgency short of some kind of extreme advantage, but the disparity between Thrane and Karrnathi forces is not that great. With Karrnath occupying Thrane, it's actually relatively simple: They're not that much interested in industrial production, but in simple dominance. That enables them to resort to rather rude strategies like "We've no special problem with your faith, but every killed Karrnathi solder and every destroyed undead will be replaced by 3 of your citizens". Undead make great guards and defenders, but pretty lousy soldiers, and even worse police/law enforcement, which an occupation would require. They don't tire, they can march all day, they're impossible to bribe or intimidate... as long as you only need fighting forces and can supply the brains by sending some living officers along (wait, that came out wrong...), I'd believe undead to work just fine. Plus, Thrane has the highest concentration of Divine Spellcasters on Khorvaire, as well as a disproportionately high number of individuals who may not be spell casters, but are still trained to fight Evil stuff like Undead, and the equipment that entails. While they may have more divine casters than other nations, they probably don't have more PC classed characters. Take a look at the Adept (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/adept.htm) class and tell me which of its spells would be that practical against undead.
Alex_ 10-03-07, 10:20 PM	What was it then? By the end of the conflict it was about revenge, regaining territory, and lesser conflicts based on socio-economic-political situations, but not about choosing a new leader of Galifar. As of 998, the fighting is done for only two years. Actually, in most material I've read, everyone expects the war to go on somewhen. Fighting yes, but not over control of the throne of Galifar. There are still plenty of other reasons for them to fight. With Karrnath occupying Thrane, it's actually relatively simple: They're not that much interested in industrial production, but in simple dominance. That enables them to resort to rather rude strategies like "We've no special problem with your faith, but every killed Karrnathi solder and every destroyed undead will be replaced by 3 of your citizens". I try to think of it from a Thrane's point of view. My faith (Silver Flame) promotes use of force in fighting evil, and my faith was founded by a martyr (Mira), and seems to spawn a disproportionately large number of them. In fact, some believe that dying while fighting Evil can earn you eternal life (joining the Flame). I've been training with weapons since I was a child as a part of my religious training (archery). The enemy is one with whom my people and nation have been at war with for decades (Karrnath), and I know for a fact that the tactics and tools they use in war rank up there with the most Evil things my religion says exist (Undead). They even killed some of my friends and relatives using those vile methods (battles during the last war). All this and they just invaded my homeland -my holy land- and demand that I roll over and submit. Not going to happen. Not without a darn good fight, possibly resulting in my death. Throw in the fact that there's probably hundreds of thousands more just like me. This is not the kind of country where I would suggest Karrnath setting up a military occupation to be a good strategy. They would probably be able to get away with it in Breland or Aundair, where the people don't hate them nearly as much, aren't religiously devoted to self sacrifice and defeat of Evil, and don't have as many Clerics, Paladins, and other Undead slayers. They don't tire, they can march all day, they're impossible to bribe or intimidate... They can only perform a single task that can't exceed a couple of words in length like, "Guard this room and kill anyone who enters." Karrnathi Skeletons/Zombies fight smarter, but I doubt they're a replacement for even a guy sitting at a checkpoint or patrolling in search for questionable activities (which they couldn't even identify). as long as you only need fighting forces and can supply the brains by sending some living officers along (wait, that came out wrong...), I'd believe undead to work just fine. Those couple of guys with brains have to practically baby sit their forces though. There's no room for individual skill or judgment, which is especially important during a military occupation and in counter-insurgency operations, where your forces are not only killing people, but acting as police, representatives, information gatherers, etc.. Furthermore, your enemy won't be in big formations marching towards you on an open battlefield. They're going to be in the same villages and cities as everyone else, look like everyone else, and be moving with everyone else. They're also going to have the support of the general population. You definitely don't want mindless creatures as soldiers in these situations. While they may have more divine casters than other nations, they probably don't have more PC classed characters. Take a look at the Adept (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/adept.htm) class and tell me which of its spells would be that practical against undead. According to the demographics Dragonshard (which as admittedly simplified) Clerics in Thrane are roughly comparable in frequency to Wizards in Aundair. Paladins in Thrane are just as common as Clerics. For Adepts, Protection from Evil and Cure Spells have obvious applications. Obscuring Mist could be helpful against Undead, which would be too stupid to notice someone was using a spell to escape their notice, and other spells like Burning Hands or Command could be used against the few living troops in charge of a number of Undead, assuming Karrnath actually did do that. This is to say nothing of any possible anti-Undead items made by Thrane, or non-spellcasters that nonetheless have had experience fighting Undead, so they carry the proper weapons and tactics for combating them. Thrane's national religion is devoted to fighting stuff like Undead, and one of their greatest enemies uses Undead as an integral part of how they make war. They will be prepared to fight against them. I'm not saying Thrane will simply laugh at the idea of Undead troops, bit the nation is far better equipped to deal with them than any other nation on Khorvaire.
Ogiwan 10-08-07, 10:50 AM	To answer the original poster: Yeah. A rogue Karrnathi warlord certainly wouldn't hold to Kaius' desire to maintain peace; it's stated that the warlords are champing at the bit for a resumed war. Now, if Sharn is destroyed by some cataclysmic event, it would take a huge chunk out of the Brelish industry; the Cogs are entire districts devoted to heavy industry. If Boranel dies in Sharn, then it either transfers to a parliamentary system, or to a civil war between Royalists and Parlimentists. Now, why blame Thrane when you can blame Cyre? Cyre was destroyed in a cataclysm; so was Sharn. Obviously, the Cyreans are bitter and pissy and whatnot; blame them! Civil war between New Cyre and the rest of Breland. They might call on the Valenar to help them out; another crazy warlord in Darguun might try to capitalize on all the disorganization in Breland. If you blame Thrane instead of the Cyreans (harder to do), then Karrnath might have a pretext for launching a joint war with Breland; that whole heir-exchange program, i think. To close, Karrnathi armies in the Last War didn't make much use of maneuver: it was mostly a blunt-force frontal assault, unless it was clearly the wrong thing to do. (James Wyatt, et al, Forges of War, 53-54). I feel so nerdy for having cited that in demi-parenthetical style.
Burningspear 10-09-07, 06:59 PM	I feel so nerdy for having cited that in demi-parenthetical style. LOL.... :rofl:...
Gruul 10-18-07, 06:29 PM	To answer the original poster: Yeah. Now, why blame Thrane when you can blame Cyre? Thanks very much for the answer and while you're at it, get out of my head! Think about it: a landless, wealthy Cyran Noble driven somewhat mad by his anguish over Cyre's destruction and striving to carve out a new homeland for his remaining people partners up with war-hungry Kharn general to strike at the heart of a mutual foe. The Cyrans us the chaos which follows to carve a chunk out of Breland and the Kharns no longer need worry about the might of Brelish industry! Of course each would try to implicate the other's country in the terrorist attack.
Ogiwan 10-19-07, 04:33 AM	....why stop there? Your proposed Cyrean noble might or might not be that dude in New Cyre; if it is, then the Cyrean threat is somewhat unified, if not, then there are factions within the Cyrean population that the PCs have to figure out. Or, that could be the story that the evil Karrn warlord makes up; after all, that Mourner trash wouldn't balk at making other people's lives misrable if it will get Cyre back. This was just an experiment gone wrong. The Karrn warlord? Well, why is he trying to start all kinds of trouble? To make Kaius look weak. He'll stir up a bit o' trouble with Aundair and Thrane, and since Kaius won't go to war with them, Kauis looks like a wimp. Meanwhile, evil warlord guy is stirring up anti-Thrane and Aundarian resentment (perhaps through conventiantly-released documents bringing new and horrid Thrane/Aundairian atrocities to light? Carefully staged diplomatic incidents/crimes framing Thrane/Aundarian diplomatic personell?). All he needs is the spark. Oh, conveniently enough, that botched Cyrean experiment that turned Sharn into a wasteland/whatever else you want? It just so happened to be funded by Thrane/Aundair. Evil warlord guy might go for the coup; I'm a fan of Kaius, so I say he escapes, and evil warlord guy goes to righteous war against those evil Thranes/Aundarians. Why? Well, I see two possibilities: My less favorite and my most favorite. Less favorite: Vol seeks to re-establish her control of Karrnath by putting the Order of the Emerald Claw in control of the bulk of the country; by attacking those dirty thrane/aundarians, the OotEC shows that they're true Karrns, unlike those who followed Kaius. Vol gets control of her own country, with the requisite resources, for what end? DM says. Most favorite: The end result is a new Age of Daemons. So, over a million years ago, the Raksasha Rajas are imprisoned. Sucks to be them. The ones who didn't get trapped have to get their bosses out so they can go back to playing. They can't trick the dragons into doing anything, 'cause they're dragons, but they can trick the lesser races. The cataclysms after the Quori Wars? the Lords of Dust knew that if the Giants just did things a little differently this time, the Rajas would be released; hence, the Dragon scouring of Xen'Drik. The Xoriat invasion? Who else would have led the Daelkyr to Eberron? Lhazaar's migration to Khorvaire: The Lords knew that humans, with their ambition, creativity, and short life span (read: no look at long-term consequences) would be the perfect tools for arcane research. The War of the Marks you can do with as you will, but just look at the Last War: a massive development in weapons research. Perhaps next time, one of the nations will turn towards this one technique unearthed in a Xen'Drik ruin that has such-and-such an effect on the world.....after all, look at what happened to Cyre.