Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sir Elton 08-25-06, 05:32 PM	Boy, the Queen is such a Megalomaniac, isn't she?
RPGfan 08-25-06, 06:18 PM	Let's just be glad that she isn't a Thrallherd. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=688766) The thought of her as a psionic character gives me the willies.
ekomega 08-25-06, 07:53 PM	She's just carrying on the tradition of her great-grandmother, who decided that she deserved the throne and not Mishann. It runs in the family.
RPGfan 08-25-06, 08:06 PM	I repeats. Let's just be glad that she isn't a Thrallherd. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=688766) The thought of her as a psionic character gives me the willies.
Nived 08-25-06, 08:11 PM	Well it's not like any of the other heads of state are well adjusted.
koboldlord 08-25-06, 08:39 PM	Well, King Boranel isn't that bad...
Nived 08-25-06, 08:41 PM	Yeah but how long is the old man going to be around?
Sir Elton 08-25-06, 08:55 PM	Well it's not like any of the other heads of state are well adjusted. I don't know. King Kaius may have had an eye opener when he went underground to disconnect himself from the Blood of Vol. He could have seen what the common people were actually like and how they lived in Karrn. He just has Chronic Anemia.
RPGfan 08-25-06, 09:57 PM	Well, King Boranel isn't that bad... I would like to give the following counter arguements from "1001+ Things the Worst Party in Eberron may not do" 2951. King Boranal is not an idiot. 2952. Even if he can't see his Prime Minister is out to get him... 2953. Even if he gave his kids over to a vampire... 2954. Even if he lost Droam... 2955. and Dargunn.... 2956. And he has a horde of militant druids in the forrest that he routinely goes hunting in.... 2957. And he lost his one chance to win the Last War... 2958. And he let the Cyreans settle in an area with strong enough support to revolt.... 2959. And his best warforged friend may be the Lord of Blades. 2960. King Boranal is an idiot. 2961. It is wrong to try to sell King Boranal beachfront Property in the Mournland. 2962. It is wrong to do the play "The Madness of King George" to Boranal. 2963. He won't get it. 2964. King Boranal is not Homer Simpson. 2965. Even if he says "Doh" alot... 2966. Especially after hitting his head alot on random objects. 2967. And he has an unusual fondness of doughnuts. 2968. And his skin is turning yellow from the Mournland campaign along with his hair falling out... 2969. It is wrong to try and get Bornal to count over ten or twenty if he's not wearing shoes. 2970. King Boranal is not King Steve.... 2971. It is wrong to randomly show up at his house and say that you're the Light Warriors... 2972. And prove it by holding lightbulbs... 2973. YES I KNOW HE'LL BELIEVE IT. 2974. King Boranal is not so dense that he forms a black hole around himself. 2975. The reason the King's Secret Service is called the "King's Citadel" is not because their primary duty is helping Boranal find his way back when he's lost in his own castle. 2976. A proper way of addressing King Boranal is not "Dumbass." 2976. The first draft of the Treaty of Thronehold was not in Crayon... 2977. And it was not in fingerpaint... 2978. Even if it was it wasn't Jaela... 2979. I know it was Boranal! 2980. King Boranal did not attend Grade School together with Jaela... 2981. And he wasn't held back that year either. 2982. Boranal doesn't need a manservant named Wooster. 2983. It is wrong when Boranal makes a questionable decision to go "HELLOOOOOOO...MACFLYYYY!" 2984. The best way to rob King Boranal is not to say "Hey! Would you close your eyes for 10 minutes while I rob your treasury?" 2985. That's the second best way to do it. 2986. The best way to rob King Boranal is to ask for 20 minutes. 2987. Boranal's daughter cannot be kidnapped by simply showing up and saying you're the villain and you have to suceed in the first part of your plot. 2988. King Boranal's entire statecraft doesn't come from anime.... 2989. It comes from comic books. 2990. It is wrong when an evil villain attacks Breland that the best way to stop him is USE HIS ARMIES RATHER THAN RAGTAG ADVENTURERS. 2991. King Boranal is not to be said to be the 'dumbest man on the planet.' 2992. Even when he has us, thieves and pillaging murderers, rescue the planet from Orcus.... 2993. ...When he pardons us for stopping the orcs despite mass murder equal to them. 2994. ....For single handidly reingniting the Last War several times... 2995. ...for trying to kill him on several occasions. 2996. It is wrong to pimp slap the King when he says something messed up. 2997. It is wrong to give Boranal's nephews copies of Hamlet as a "suggestion" 2998. It is wrong to sell the Emperor invisible cloth to get him naked during a parade.... 2999. He's already fallen for it. 3000. It is wrong to add to the King's unjustifed fear of invisible gnomes. 3001. He already has enough problems with them.
koboldlord 08-26-06, 12:09 AM	Well... Crap. So much for the five nations. You can say this for him, though. He's not a nine-year-old girl, who for the most part is a political puppet.
RPGfan 08-26-06, 12:14 AM	Actually, Jaela is, for the most part, jailbait. Seriously. Read "1001+ Things the Worst Party in Eberron may not do". And she's 11. 12 in that thread.
RPGfan 08-26-06, 04:19 AM	I don't know. King Kaius may have had an eye opener when he went underground to disconnect himself from the Blood of Vol. He could have seen what the common people were actually like and how they lived in Karrn. He just has Chronic Anemia. True. I see him as more of a Nuetral Good than his listed Lawful Evil. He might have been LE before, but he's becoming a nicer and nicer guy. And why hasn't anyone except maybe koboldlord clicked on the word Thrallherd yet? It's underlined. That usually means it's a link.
Bluebrush 08-26-06, 06:58 AM	Being sympathetic to the common folk doesn't stop you from being utterly ruthless though. Kaius exemplifies the whole "doing good through evil" aspect of the setting.
Sir Elton 08-26-06, 09:15 AM	Well, if you don't think she's megalomaniac, just take a look at this picture of her. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/5n_gallery/89983.jpg
Nived 08-26-06, 12:42 PM	RPGfan: Nah I still see Kaius as evil. Sure his goals are noble when taken at face value, but they're for selfish reasons and he wont hesitate to brutally murder anyone that screws with them. He wouldn't feel a pang of regret or know a moment of hesitation. Aurala on the other hand is basically a good person who believes that's she's faced with an impossible situation, because the rest of the world's heads of state are freaking nuts (but oh if she looked in the mirror). So she's willing to do what she needs to but she doesn't like it. They're both bonkers.... Of course you get more crazy as you go outside the 5 nations.
The Livewire 08-26-06, 01:38 PM	Well in 2e Neutral Good could be read as a campaign against evil, without regard for law and chaos. If I remember from Origins correctly She believe's that it's for the greater good for her to rule, even if she needs to start the war again to do it. And if she dreams of a Khorvaire under her rule, it might not even be her idea. "War is the continuation of diplomacy by further means." - Karl Von Clausewitz, Prussian military theoretician Kaius is more concerned for the survival and well being of his country, and thus his power. He's still fighting the war, just not with armies. He's using insurgency disguised as sympathy (helping the cyran refugees in Breland, for example) and appears to be very involved in the Mournlands (Inflict spells heal undead normally, right? Why not send in a Vampire minion with an eternal wand of inflict wounds, and a squad of Karnathi skeletons) He still keeps the warforged in servitude (Hmm, Thrane does too) and I wouldn't be surprised if he'd help the Lords of Dust muck with the silver flame (But, having learned from the Blood of Vol debacle, would likely stab the LoD in the back if they were too successful). He also has another advantage that none of the other five nations have. Time. "Diplomacy is a continuation of war by other means." Zhou En Lai Chinese diplomat & Communist politician
pquekadl 08-26-06, 07:15 PM	I would like to give the following counter arguements from "1001+ Things the Worst Party in Eberron may not do" I've had problems with most of these ever since I first read them 2952. Even if he can't see his Prime Minister is out to get him... The prime minister is not out to get him. He has plans for the country after Boranal dies but is perfectly content to wait for him to die of old age. 2953. Even if he gave his kids over to a vampire... Yeah and only about 10 people in all of Korvaire know that Kaius is a vampire. BS reason. 2954. Even if he lost Droam...[/QOUTE] Breland never had a strong hold over the area that is now Droaam. With the last was raging on Boranal was smart enough to realize that he couldn't afford to retake the area. And even if he tried, what then? The entire area is populated by monsters who would be unlikely to swear fealty to a human crown. [QUOTE]2955. and Dargunn.... Nobody knew that so many goblins were living in Darguun. Had it been known Boranal probably would have used fewer mercenaries from the area. After this happened he once again did the smart thing and forged an alliance with the goblins instead of investing resources in a long bloody campaign to retake an area populated be creatures that wouldn't be content to live under his rule anyway. 2956. And he has a horde of militant druids in the forrest that he routinely goes hunting in.... This is the first point so far that really indicates stupidity on Boranal's part. In his defense he does have members of the Citadel trying to track them down. And they’re simple bandits, not druids. 2957. And he lost his one chance to win the Last War... He was more interested in restoring peace to the land then conquering it. Are you suggesting that anyone who isn't a war mongering tyrant will make for an ineffectual ruler? And once again, conquering all of Galifer would probably not have brought true peace as most of the other countries would not have been content to live under Boranal's rule. 2958. And he let the Cyreans settle in an area with strong enough support to revolt.... This one may have been a bad move on his part. But I still wouldn't call him an idiot. 2959. And his best warforged friend may be the Lord of Blades. I really want to know which source book indicates that Three the lawful good warforged paladin who spends all his time at Boranal's side may in fact be The Lord of Blades, a lawful evil fighter/ artificier/ warforged titan who spends all his time in the Mournland, far from Wroat.
The Livewire 08-26-06, 07:52 PM	I really want to know which source book indicates that Three the lawful good warforged paladin who spends all his time at Boranal's side may in fact be The Lord of Blades, a lawful evil fighter/ artificier/ warforged titan who spends all his time in the Mournland, far from Wroat. I beleive that's a reference to Bulwark, not Three edit: Corrected the name, thanks Bluebrush
Bluebrush 08-26-06, 08:01 PM	This is the first point so far that really indicates stupidity on Boranal's part. In his defense he does have members of the Citadel trying to track them down. And they’re simple bandits, not druids.Nope. I think he's referring to the "Shadows of the forest sect" from the Druid Dragonshard. Mind, they are probably likely to mess with bandits and kings in order to protect the forest. I really want to know which source book indicates that Three the lawful good warforged paladin who spends all his time at Boranal's side may in fact be The Lord of Blades, a lawful evil fighter/ artificier/ warforged titan who spends all his time in the Mournland, far from Wroat.This was brought up in Races of Eberron, (so take this with a pinch of salt) which mentions a warforged named "Bulwark" who lived by Boranel's side and eventually lead him to the belief that warforged are sentient beings deserving of freedom, leading to Boranel being a proponent of classifying Warforged as sentient creatures and thus protected by the Code of Galifar. The book goes on to say that, once he had attained the freedom of his race, he left, never to be seen again. The book goes on to say that he may have later become the Lord of Blades, and that Boranel is worried that this may be the case.
Nightshade 08-26-06, 08:02 PM	I would like to give the following counter arguements from "1001+ Things the Worst Party in Eberron may not do" 2951. King Boranal is not an idiot. 2952. Even if he can't see his Prime Minister is out to get him... 2953. Even if he gave his kids over to a vampire... 2954. Even if he lost Droam... 2955. and Dargunn.... Actually # 2955 is incorrect. It was Cyre that lost Darguun not Breland (see ECS 152). Breland lost Zilargo (ECS 212).
RPGfan 08-26-06, 09:16 PM	Ummmm... guys? I'm just a loony who can't do the qoute thing right. Those things were orginally done by the people on the "1001+ Things the Worst Party in Eberron may not do" board by Charles Phipps. I posted them because I thought they were funny, not because I thought they were true. Can't you people take a joke?
Loki5654 08-26-06, 10:47 PM	Well, if you don't think she's megalomaniac, just take a look at this picture of her. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/5n_gallery/89983.jpg And to add Narcissism to her Megalomania, this picture is actually her looking into a mirror, trying to seduce herself.
Sir Elton 08-26-06, 10:58 PM	And to add Narcissism to her Megalomania, this picture is actually her looking into a mirror, trying to seduce herself. Ewwwwe. That's an ugly thought for Queen Aurala. No wonder she has only 3 possible heirs to the throne. :yuck:
RPGfan 08-26-06, 11:05 PM	No wonder the Catgirl from "1001+ Things the Worst Party in Eberron may not do" calls her the Wicked Witch of the West.
Sir Elton 08-26-06, 11:09 PM	RPGfan: Nah I still see Kaius as evil. Sure his goals are noble when taken at face value, but they're for selfish reasons and he wont hesitate to brutally murder anyone that screws with them. He wouldn't feel a pang of regret or know a moment of hesitation. Aurala on the other hand is basically a good person who believes that's she's faced with an impossible situation, because the rest of the world's heads of state are freaking nuts (but oh if she looked in the mirror). So she's willing to do what she needs to but she doesn't like it. They're both bonkers.... Of course you get more crazy as you go outside the 5 nations. I think the whole Wynarn family is inbred. The Wynarn family and the Human and Elven Great Houses. That's why they're nuts. Every few generations or so, the Wynarn family marry into each other or into one of the Human or Elven great houses. It was only during the Eighty Years of the Last War that they've stopped the practice totally due to mutual hatred. Of course, King Kaius wouldn't marry Queen Aurala simply because he thinks of her as a spoiled brat. That, and he married an Aerenal Aristocrat. It would have been very interesting if he married a Valenar princess.
Charles Phipps 08-27-06, 12:17 AM	Well yes, the whole point is to crack jokes, not actually state that Boranal in Eberron canon is a true idiot. My take on Queen Aurala is the fact that she's a woman that struggles with the fact that she's ambitious and a authoritarian whom believes in divine right. In Aurala's case, she could very well tumble into evil at any given time. However, she runs her country with a loving and caring hand with great attention towards the plight of the common people. Were Aurala Emperor of Galifar, she'd no doubt be remembered as a monarch of wonderful skill and diplomacy. However, there's the catch, Aurala isn't Emperor. Aurala believes the other nations are severely messed up and that divided we stand, divided we fall. I take it as a note that Aurala could just start the Last War over again by declaring war against the other four nations immediately. She doesn't though because she knows that eventually one of them will do it for her. Then she'll use it as an excuse to restore peace in Galifar and satisfy both her conscience as well as her problem with the whole not being Empress thing.
RPGfan 08-27-06, 12:31 AM	You're a wise man Charles. Please stop being that way.:P By the way, what would happen if someone tricked Aurala in to wearing a bra padded with catnip when Marish was around?:plotting:
Charles Phipps 08-27-06, 12:40 AM	Something not found outside of fanfic.
Nived 08-27-06, 12:47 AM	I still stand by my statement that none of the heads of state in Khorvaire are well adjusted people.
Charles Phipps 08-27-06, 12:55 AM	It's the Middle Ages except with the Great War. The minds of people dealing with an idea combine the worst aspects of Henry the Fifth self-justification with Kaiser Wilhelm Diplomacy. They're not crazy or monsters, they just inherited a mess that requires a very bizarre worldview to deal with.
Sir Elton 08-27-06, 10:32 AM	I bet the independent people in the Adventurer Social Class are glad that they aren't kings or queens of the Five Nations, though. They wouldn't have time to do what members of the Adventurer social class does best. Go on dangerous archaeological expeditions, or go bounty hunting, be hired swords and spells, and become saboteurs in the plans of significant Secret Societies (the Lords of Dust, the Chamber, the Aurum, the Dreaming Dark) and not so secret societies (the Twelve Houses, the Royalty of the Three Nations [everyone likes Boranel, he's like Augustus Caesar]).
(Psi)SeveredHead 08-27-06, 12:50 PM	Of course, King Kaius wouldn't marry Queen Aurala simply because he thinks of her as a spoiled brat. That, and he married an Aerenal Aristocrat. Did he really? Well, I can see them getting along, but what would people think of the heir? (Assuming it's possible to create one.)
Sir Elton 08-27-06, 01:05 PM	Did he really? Well, I can see them getting along, but what would people think of the heir? (Assuming it's possible to create one.) He did. King Kaius ir'Wynarn III(I) is married to Etrigani ir'Wynarn (CG Female Elf, aristocrat 4/Wizard 2). They were married in 993 Y.K. Despite being unable to produce an heir (half-vampires only exist the Marvel Universe, thank goodness); King Kaius has adopted his greatgrandson's children as his own heirs. His "sister" (really his great-greatgranddaughter) Haydith is currently being fostered by King Boranel while King Kaius fosters Boranel's son Halix ir'Wynarn and Boranel's daughter Borina ir'Wynarn. I suspect that Halix and Borina are being trained to be good rulers with a harsh Machiavellian perspective, and Haydith will have a different perspective when she returns to Karrnath.
taski 08-27-06, 11:59 PM	Clearly, Kaius is going to give his wife a night on the town with some human male who looks aproximately like him. Then that human male will disappear, never to be heard from again. Several months later, viola, an heir. So the heir will probably be khoravar; so what? Nobody's up in arms about his being married to an elf, and they would have realized by now that the next monarch probably won't be human. And anyway, a Karrnathi khoravar is still ten times better than a Thranish human. Edit: I doubt the Karrnathi people or the Warlords would sit well with either Halix or Borina (both Brels!) inheriting the Karrnathi throne.
Nived 08-28-06, 12:06 AM	I suspect he's going to do what he did the last time. Drop out of sight 'die' have his 'brother' or 'sister' assume the throne and be a puppet. He has the means... then when one of their sons come of age he'll replace them and sit on the throne proper again.
Sir Elton 08-28-06, 08:35 AM	Clearly, Kaius is going to give his wife a night on the town with some human male who looks aproximately like him. Then that human male will disappear, never to be heard from again. Several months later, viola, an heir. So the heir will probably be khoravar; so what? Nobody's up in arms about his being married to an elf, and they would have realized by now that the next monarch probably won't be human. And anyway, a Karrnathi khoravar is still ten times better than a Thranish human. Edit: I doubt the Karrnathi people or the Warlords would sit well with either Halix or Borina (both Brels!) inheriting the Karrnathi throne. They are being fostered in Kaius' court. That means, both Halix and Borina are going to be the most qualified to lead Breland over their sisters and brothers. Boranel isn't stupid. He's either going to let Breland become more like Modern England or choose the best heir for the job. And that means Halix and Borina.
(Psi)SeveredHead 08-28-06, 12:20 PM	Clearly, Kaius is going to give his wife a night on the town with some human male who looks aproximately like him. Then that human male will disappear, never to be heard from again. Several months later, viola, an heir. So the heir will probably be khoravar; so what? Nobody's up in arms about his being married to an elf, and they would have realized by now that the next monarch probably won't be human. And anyway, a Karrnathi khoravar is still ten times better than a Thranish human. Edit: I doubt the Karrnathi people or the Warlords would sit well with either Halix or Borina (both Brels!) inheriting the Karrnathi throne. Well, now that I know Kaius has "children", I don't see there being much point of giving his wife children. Royals frequently had trouble siring children, and he already has "children" too. Of course, maybe he could polymorph long enough... I presume that results in a half-elf child with no vampire traits.
Sir Elton 08-28-06, 09:45 PM	I think he does just that. The Karrns are expecting him and Etrigani to provide an heir. But if he polymorphs himself into a mortal human with -- ahem -- working equipment he's still Kaius the Vampire. Still, he should be able to produce a son of his body through Etrigani. A half-Elf, half-Karrn prince isn't as bad if Borina or Halix had a claim on the Karrn throne. :)
The Fireballed Mage 08-28-06, 11:57 PM	Or, Deep Prisoner 16 in Dreadhold is kept alive for a specific purpose. That way the true heir to the throne could be born, and if Kaius I is found out, he can leave Karrnath with a true successor, preventing civil war.
Nived 08-29-06, 12:10 AM	Kaius strikes me as the type that has a number of contingency plans in case things go south for him. He's lost his throne once, he's going to keep the power this time no matter what happens.
Sir Elton 08-29-06, 12:21 AM	A good tyrant knows when to maintain some good contingency plans and when to discard them.
Bluebrush 08-29-06, 07:05 AM	Or, Deep Prisoner 16 in Dreadhold is kept alive for a specific purpose. That way the true heir to the throne could be born, and if Kaius I is found out, he can leave Karrnath with a true successor, preventing civil war.Of course, if prisoner Deep 16 is Kaius III then he will have been aging all this time, since Kaius apparently didn't spring for a Stasis spell or a petrification. Perhaps this is part of the plan, so that if Kaius feels he can't keep up the facade, he can bring out his grandson and say "Well, your birthright is waiting. Just don't mention the whole kidnapping and such or there'll be a civil war, and we wouldn't want that would we?".
RPGfan 08-30-06, 07:57 PM	That's more twisted than a clone of King Boranal duking it out with a psionic double of Queen Aurala.
RPGfan 09-02-06, 11:56 AM	To see that happen, please take a look at this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=688766) thread.
davethebrave371 09-02-06, 02:42 PM	Of course, SPOILER I wonder if he'll bring him out to breed with someone, to add a child into the mix. That way when the child grows up Kaius can put him in prison, and continue the facade.
ArcTan 09-02-06, 06:05 PM	He already has kids, therefore there already is an heir to the throne. The question is whether Kaius is going to kill and replace one of them, too, when the time comes. (I don't see why he'd go to the trouble of creating a blood heir if he doesn't need to -- the fact that he's already stolen the throne from his grandson by stealing his grandson's life shows that he doesn't really care that much about family or anything.) The real interesting part of this story is what happens when Boranel's kids come back with dictatorial Karrn values, making them even less appealing as possible heirs to the Bear. And what happens when Haydith returns. Haydith's vividly described falling in love with Brelish customs, culture, love of freedom and respect for the individual... there's gonna be some problems there. What might be an interesting situation is if Kaius' kids die in some kind of accident, leaving Haydith the hereditary heir to the throne. Remembering that of all people she knew the real Kaius III the best and loved him -- along with her new, Boranel-trained value system -- means she's a very real threat to Kaius' power. She's by far the most likely person to discover his secret and the least likely person who can be safely entrusted with it.
davethebrave371 09-02-06, 07:36 PM	He already has kids, therefore there already is an heir to the throne. The question is whether Kaius is going to kill and replace one of them, too, when the time comes. (I don't see why he'd go to the trouble of creating a blood heir if he doesn't need to -- the fact that he's already stolen the throne from his grandson by stealing his grandson's life shows that he doesn't really care that much about family or anything.) The real interesting part of this story is what happens when Boranel's kids come back with dictatorial Karrn values, making them even less appealing as possible heirs to the Bear. And what happens when Haydith returns. Haydith's vividly described falling in love with Brelish customs, culture, love of freedom and respect for the individual... there's gonna be some problems there. What might be an interesting situation is if Kaius' kids die in some kind of accident, leaving Haydith the hereditary heir to the throne. Remembering that of all people she knew the real Kaius III the best and loved him -- along with her new, Boranel-trained value system -- means she's a very real threat to Kaius' power. She's by far the most likely person to discover his secret and the least likely person who can be safely entrusted with it. Whoa! Where does it say that Mr. Deep 16 has kids?! Did I miss something in Five Nations?
The Fireballed Mage 09-03-06, 12:38 AM	He already has kids, therefore there already is an heir to the throne. Please provide a reference for this statement. As far as I know, Kaius III has a wife, siblings, and his aunt as the regent, but I know of no case where they've stated Karnnath has an heir.
Knightstar 09-03-06, 09:03 AM	wasnt the whole reason that Kaius came out of the shadows and tooke has place as Kaius III so that he could get try and bring some manner of peace to Karrnath and get his country out from under the stranglehold the Blood of Vol had over it? At this point the Treaty of Thronehold is still barely in place and Vol is just as longlived as he is and he knows it. So unless it says otherwise somewhere else, i was under the assumption Kaius main goal was the elimination of Vol and making sure Karrnath was as strong as it could be. As for Aurala, im not entirely sure whether or not her motivations are out of any sense of duty towards what Galifar once was, or to ensuring Aundair will endure once everyone else supposedly self-destructs.
ArcTan 09-03-06, 11:45 AM	Please provide a reference for this statement. As far as I know, Kaius III has a wife, siblings, and his aunt as the regent, but I know of no case where they've stated Karnnath has an heir. Huh. It seems I'm wrong. I was sure I'd read something about him "assuming Kaius III's children as his heirs".
davethebrave371 09-03-06, 04:10 PM	Huh. It seems I'm wrong. I was sure I'd read something about him "assuming Kaius III's children as his heirs". In that case, I re-submit my spoilerized musings.
Alratan 09-08-06, 09:15 AM	I thought half-vampires did exist, from Libris Mortis.
Sir Elton 09-08-06, 09:43 AM	I thought half-vampires did exist, from Libris Mortis. I don't have the Libris Mortis, so I wouldn't know.
Bluebrush 09-08-06, 10:58 AM	Yep. Thanks to Libris Mortis "I am a Vampire (Half)!" is now an option. Though the flavour basically says the vampire has to drink a lot of blood before they can breed with other races. It's not clear what they need all that blood for though.
davethebrave371 09-08-06, 12:25 PM	It's not clear what they need all that blood for though. :eek: I hope that was sarcasm.
Nived 09-08-06, 03:38 PM	I suppose it's possible for Kaius to make a little half vampire, but I can't think of any reason why he'd want to. He doesn't want an Heir, he's immortal and he never really intends on abdicating the throne. He needs a 'cover' not a real heir... some kinda freaky deaky half vamp could eventually either expose him or try to take his place... better to continue to manipulate his family as he has been. Also how did talk about Queen Aurala end up discussing Kaius' sex life?
DarkWarriorKarg 09-08-06, 04:01 PM	Good question. Maybe people got confused: What's the difference be Aurala and Kaius? One is a monstrous menace who should be staked through the heart and have it's head lopped off before it drains you of all your vital energy. The other is a vampire.
davethebrave371 09-08-06, 04:25 PM	Also how did talk about Queen Aurala end up discussing Kaius' sex life? I was actually talking about Kaius III, not Kaius I. No vamp sex involved.
Nived 09-08-06, 06:18 PM	You know I love Eberron. What other setting is the LE Vampire King who impersonates his gradson who he keeps in prison loved by the fanbase. While the NG Queen who really hasn't done anything terrible constantly bashed, mocked and derided. I mean I would go back to the OP... but well she is a megolomaniac... but she's a megolomaniac for all the right reasons. Of course I don't see why I'm trying to defend her, my current campaign is set in Karrnath and involves Aundair terrorists... so yeah what room to I have to talk about using Aundair as a punching bag.
davethebrave371 09-08-06, 06:27 PM	You know I love Eberron. What other setting is the LE Vampire King who impersonates his gradson who he keeps in prison loved by the fanbase. While the NG Queen who really hasn't done anything terrible constantly bashed, mocked and derided. I mean I would go back to the OP... but well she is a megolomaniac... but she's a megolomaniac for all the right reasons. Of course I don't see why I'm trying to defend her, my current campaign is set in Karrnath and involves Aundair terrorists... so yeah what room to I have to talk about using Aundair as a punching bag. My current campaign has Kaius discovering the Dreaming Dark's machinations, and making some decidedly LE decisons to throw them off the scent of him knowing (i.e. he's oppressing the kalashtar as dangerous terrorists en par with the Emerald Claw, and having some "disappear" during mass jailings...only to reappear as witness protection-style informants and advisors to an elite branch of Karrnath's intelligence org).
Nived 09-08-06, 06:44 PM	The crew I run game for have a Ex-Paladin (LN) Karrnathi Bone Knight, a Karrnathi born marked Deneith Paladin (LG), and a CN Karrnathi Warlock (born near the Madwood). Oh the IC ethical arguements between the party have had me near tears because I'm laughing so hard. Amazing how well they work together on the battlefield though, hooking them has been a trick... the "We all hate Aundair" (even the nationally neutral mercenary Paladin) has been a blessing of a hook. And Aurala makes it so easy.
davethebrave371 09-08-06, 07:42 PM	Oh boy. This is going to be long. My group is/has been: Brelish Aberrant Marked Elf Warlock (dead, had a "mixed Mark" of Shadow and Death) Lhaazar Lyrandar Marked Khoravar Bard/Dragonmark Heir (dead) Karrnathi Phiarlan (and then Thuranni) Marked Elf Rogue/Dragonmark Heir (dead, and caused the deaths of the first two through his sneaky, insidious machinations...character deaths not as a result of monsters? Yes please!) Eldeen Reacher Shifter Barbarian (dead, killed by level 1 cultists because his player left the group...hahaha) Brelish Kalashtar Psion (went insane, or possibly always was, and the player made a different character...he's still out there for me to use...MWAHAHA) Warforged Artificer (currently off in Xen'drik on his own, as of last session, so the player has a new character, but his 'forged is returning some day, it's character stuff) Brelish Human (now Kalashtar) Rogue/Master Inquisitive (drew a card a few sessions ago from the Deck in Races of Eberron that can change your form...he pulled kalashtar) Brelish Kalashtar Soulknife/Atavist (the second character of the psion's player, now a woman from the Deck that changed the human) Karrnathi Human Marshal (achieved rank of Lord-Colonel in the Last War, currently kidnapped by the Dreaming Dark) Droaamite Changeling Wizard/Psion (now dead for failing the Cabinet of Faces, the second character of the Phiarlan/Thuranni Rogue) Brelish Human Fighter/Psychic Warrior (departed the adventurers to stay with his family, in character decision, second character of the Death/Shadow Elf) Eldeen Reacher Changeling Druid (departed for the Eldeen Reaches to better serve his Gatekeeper elders, second character of the Lyrandar Lhaazarite) Talentan Ghallanda Marked Halfling Rogue/Dragonmark Heir (drew a card that made her Medium-sized last session) Brelish Pseudodragon Psion/Thrallherd (currently off amassing an army of iredar in Droaam, third and current character of Death/Shadow elf, the player of which is temporarily out of the game while he works out work stuff in real life) Aundair Lyrandar Marked Khoravar Artificer/Windwright Captain (owns his own airship, third and current character of the Phiarlan/Thuranni Rogue) Brelish (and then Droaamite, and then Brelish again) Tharask Human Psion/Fighter/Extreme Explorer (has 15 action points, and 8 per day that don't draw on that pool...min/maxed action point stuff, and second, although temporary, character of the 'forged, not Marked yet, but will be when she hits Heir of Siberys) Aundair Orien Marked Human Scout/Dragonmark Heir (he can go 650 feet in 6 seconds on a full run...and he can do it THROUGH THE TOPS OF THE TREES...an amazing speed build, and he can teleport 3000 miles, or 6000 miles in the direction of an Orien beacon, twice per day...yikes! Third and current character of the original Lhaazarite Lyrandar Bard) We also had a human wizard, a halfling rogue (Jorasco) and a shifter ranger, all of whom were in the group for only one or two sessions each because the players barged their way into the apartment in which we were playing the game and imposed themselves (or were a relative of one of the players), but I don't count them, because they were just bit parts in a greater story. The player of the Marshal, the Pseudodragon and the Barbarian have all left (only one of them permanently) over the course of our game, but two are coming right back in once work settles for them, and the Barbarian player left within the first three months of us playing, and we've now been playing for almost a year, so it was ok that he left when he did. Including him (but not including the 3 that I don't count), we have 9 players, and then me. Ten people, all packed into apartments and people's living rooms. Then nine people, and now seven people (but two are coming back soon), and one session we had eleven including me. Yikes! It's tough to DM sometimes, but its really rewarding and superfun. We're doing it up tomorrow. And the session after this next one will be our one year. I feel like I need to get them a present or something.
Yakman 02-20-07, 02:03 PM	She's just carrying on the tradition of her great-grandmother, who decided that she deserved the throne and not Mishann. It runs in the family.Actually, Aundair was with the Cyreans initially. Only Breland's Queen was adamantly against Mishann becoming Queen--the Thranish and the Karrnathis wanted to look into amending the rules of succession. Anyhow, I don't think that Aurala is a megalomaniac. She just wants to restore Galifar, and wants to be on top at the end of that restoration.
Sir Elton 02-23-07, 06:59 PM	Although, that is scary, actually. I would not want to see Aurala on the Galifar throne. I'd rather it be King Kaius or the new Prime Minister of Breland.
davethebrave371 02-23-07, 09:59 PM	Although, that is scary, actually. I would not want to see Aurala on the Galifar throne. I'd rather it be King Kaius or the new Prime Minister of Breland. I have a feeling a Prime Minister of Breland wouldn't take the Galifar throne, per se. Maybe try and make all of Khorvaire into a giant democracy.
Sir Elton 02-24-07, 11:44 AM	Or a republic. :)
The_Last_Rogue 02-24-07, 02:35 PM	Two questions/thoughts: 1. Has her age been established? How old is she? I am guessing early 30's at the oldest? 2. We (and the source books) seem to paint her with an ambitious light. Do you think she would be the type of person who would be willing to enter undeath or some such mysticism as a means of prolonging her life, and therefore realizing her ambitions? Hmm...
Charles Phipps 02-24-07, 02:39 PM	2. We (and the source books) seem to paint her with an ambitious light. Do you think she would be the type of person who would be willing to enter undeath or some such mysticism as a means of prolonging her life, and therefore realizing her ambitions? Only if she's got no heir that she trusts with the job.
The Fireballed Mage 02-25-07, 12:55 PM	1. Has her age been established? How old is she? I am guessing early 30's at the oldest? She is old enough to have a full-grown son serving her has a member of the Royal Eyes (5 Nations). So she's probably late 40's. 2. We (and the source books) seem to paint her with an ambitious light. Do you think she would be the type of person who would be willing to enter undeath or some such mysticism as a means of prolonging her life, and therefore realizing her ambitions? Not publically. Undead have no legal rights under Galifar law. And remember while ambitous, she's still Good. There are limits she won't cross (at least not without a lot of soul searching.)
The_Last_Rogue 02-25-07, 02:10 PM	Yeah, logically 40-45 is the best answer . . . I imagine that picture of her was her in her younger years. As for the undeath thing -- bringing up her alignment is probably the best way to look at this (and something I did not consider). Still this begets the question: How ambitious/desperate is the Queen? As she advances in age and sees her dream of a united 'Galifar' under Aundarian rule (ie her rule) begin to slip away -- could she, would she become more sucesptible to doing dastardly deeds to reach her 'good' means?
davethebrave371 02-25-07, 02:17 PM	Yeah, logically 40-45 is the best answer . . . I imagine that picture of her was her in her younger years. As for the undeath thing -- bringing up her alignment is probably the best way to look at this (and something I did not consider). Still this begets the question: How ambitious/desperate is the Queen? As she advances in age and sees her dream of a united 'Galifar' under Aundarian rule (ie her rule) begin to slip away -- could she, would she become more sucesptible to doing dastardly deeds to reach her 'good' means? I think it's actually the reverse. She does good things for an ultimately evil goal, not dastardly things for a good goal. That's Kaius. Kaius does things he knows are evil, things he knows are not just morally gray, but morally black, so that he can acheive national security and peace. Aurala wants to control all of Galifar, and screw peace...but she'll only use methods she sees as good to do so. Any morally gray areas are likely going to be dealt with by the Royal Eyes without her direct approval or knowledge, though I'm sure she trusts their discretion.
The_Last_Rogue 02-25-07, 02:30 PM	Oh, I was not saying that she currently is doing 'dastardly deeds' (debatable) . . .I was saying it is well-documented that the Queen as aims of controling a united Galifar. As she ages and that dream becomes more and more unlikely . . .what extent would she go to to claim the throne? Would she bankrupt Aundair's future in her last few years just to taste the dream? WOuld she turn to the blood of vol, much as Kaius did? Etc.
davethebrave371 02-25-07, 02:34 PM	Oh, I was not saying that she currently is doing 'dastardly deeds' (debatable) . . .I was saying it is well-documented that the Queen as aims of controling a united Galifar. As she ages and that dream becomes more and more unlikely . . .what extent would she go to to claim the throne? Would she bankrupt Aundair's future in her last few years just to taste the dream? WOuld she turn to the blood of vol, much as Kaius did? Etc. I have a feeling she wouldn't go that far. I think, at best, Kaius was LN corrupted to LE, but was likely LE all along. Always willing to WHATEVER it took to make his nation strong, to have his nation win...and then, in the end, he realized the err of that opinion, that peace was the better option. Of course, being pro-peace doesn't make you Good, and it seems that even that realization wasn't good enough to sway him from a "I'll do whatever it takes" point of view. Again, if he had began as LG, I don't think he would have agreed to Vol's bargain.
Nived 02-26-07, 12:30 AM	I don't believe there is a single nation leadership structure that believes the war is truely over. Kauis felt he couldn't win given the current circumstances so sought peace as a stalling tactic to rebuild. Thrane still believes it is their duty to erradicate evil from this world, their crusade isn't over merely postponed. Breland has Droaam on the left, Darguun on the right, they aren't going to demilitarize anytime soon. Zilargo, The Trust... nuff said. Valenar... nuff said. Darguun, is a nation of warriors, they'll need a war or they'll turn on each other. The Mror Holds are keying up for defense rather than expantion in contrast to most others. The Talenta Plains are still a battlefield what with the Valenar raiders. Aurlia isn't trying to start the war for its own sake... she believes that war is coming, it is inevitable... but she's going to win when it does come. She has to, she's the only one who can 'save the world from itself'. That's how I see her anyway. If the tense peace lasts long enough for her to be an old woman... I don't believe she'll turn to undeath... she will mearly try to instuct her heirs to be ready... because the war will still be coming.... in her mind at least.
The Fireballed Mage 02-26-07, 02:47 AM	Oh, I was not saying that she currently is doing 'dastardly deeds' (debatable) . . .I was saying it is well-documented that the Queen as aims of controling a united Galifar. As she ages and that dream becomes more and more unlikely . . .what extent would she go to to claim the throne? Would she bankrupt Aundair's future in her last few years just to taste the dream? WOuld she turn to the blood of vol, much as Kaius did? Etc. That would make a good story, and is a believable way for a character to fall to darkness. She would fall for the right reasons... not believing anyone else could be a good ruler for Galifar. One reason I wouldn't do that though is that many here already have difficulty with the idea that she's ambitious, yet Good. Having her fall to evil would appear too easy and a unleash a whole bunch of, "I told you so!"'s. While ambition provides a Shakespearean flaw to her character, it would also seem too easy a plot hook. If your players half expected her to Fall, then it's probably better for her not to. She wants it, she wants it badly. She'll do almost anything to get it... but that's the key point: almost anything. There are some lines she will not cross, some travesties she will not entertain, some horrors she will not unleash... not if she wants to look at herself in the mirror. Yes, she may order a city to be razed: in the hopes that 2,000 dead now will save 2,000,000 later. But she will agonize over that decision and try her hardest to make sure that never has to happen again. Kaius, on the other hand, will also kill 2,000 to save 2,000,000. But he'll do it coldly and efficiently. And he'll do it again if necessary. That's the difference. Both can be ruthless and order mass deaths to achieve their goals. But where Kaius will be coldly indifferent to their fate, Aurala will weep for the fallen. ... of course she is ambitious, arrogant, and petty: that comes through in her character descriptions. And yet she still cares for her citizens and wants the best for her nation and the whole of what was once Galifar. She's Good, without being perfect. She's no white knight, but she rules her nation well and with its best intentions at heart. In short: she's an Eberron monarch.
rabidclipper 02-26-07, 03:26 AM	That's the difference. Both can be ruthless and order mass deaths to achieve their goals. But where Kaius will be coldly indifferent to their fate, Aurala will weep for the fallen. ... of course she is ambitious, arrogant, and petty: that comes through in her character descriptions. And yet she still cares for her citizens and wants the best for her nation and the whole of what was once Galifar. She's Good, without being perfect. She's no white knight, but she rules her nation well and with its best intentions at heart. In short: she's an Eberron monarch.[/QUOTE] A point that I would like to bring up is that, ultimately, she is probably correct. She IS the best choice for Queen of a new Galifar. Hear me out.... Boranel's heirs are likely to lose their thrones (and the old king himself isn't a very competent politician, and wouldn't do a great job of reconciling the 5 (4?) nations if he were to reunite them. Kaius? yeah, his new Thranish citizens would get a REAL kick out of that. Even if the "he's LITERALLY a monster" part didn't get them, the coziness with blasphemous forces pretty much renders any Karrnathi monarch unable to rule Thrane without playing by what would be called the "Hama rules" in the real world. The same is true for Jaela in Karnnath or the religiously open Breland (you want us to recognize a little girl PRIEST as our queen? Without voting on it or anything?). And most likely it would be Krozen and not Jaela herself who took such a demanding political office, given how busy her religious duties keep her (she doesn't even run thrane, the cardinals do). Who's left, Oargev of... where? Simply put, Aurala really is the only person with the personal magnetism to pull the nations together, should Aundair pull off the improbable (it almost certainly won't with its poor geographic position between Karnnath and Thrane, and its small population vis a vis breland). Of course, that is precisely WHY she is so ambitious and GOOD. Looking at the post-apocalyptic landscape of Khorvaire, she can see the unaviodable consequences of letting anyone else rule. Brought to you by your friendly local Aundairian Recruitment office. Enlist, and be part of a new golden age for Khorvaire!
rabidclipper 02-26-07, 03:27 AM	I know the fireballs are about to fly after that last post, but I just had to stir the pot, with all the "Aurala is a *****" talk.... {{dives behind nearest wall}}
davethebrave371 02-26-07, 12:03 PM	Boranel's heirs are likely to lose their thrones (and the old king himself isn't a very competent politician, and wouldn't do a great job of reconciling the 5 (4?) nations if he were to reunite them. Actually, Boranel is talked about in the fluff as being a really good politician, and that's why his heirs are likely to lose the throne. In comparison to Good Ol' Boranel, the Parliament will make the heirs look like incompetent buffoons. Kaius? yeah, his new Thranish citizens would get a REAL kick out of that. Even if the "he's LITERALLY a monster" part didn't get them, the coziness with blasphemous forces pretty much renders any Karrnathi monarch unable to rule Thrane without playing by what would be called the "Hama rules" in the real world. a) No one, not even Karrnathi citizens know that he's a monster. Not even the Emerald Claw or Blood of Vol know that he's a monster. Only the highest of high ups in the EC and BoV hierarchy know anything about it. You could count on one hand how many people in the Karrnathi government know about it. Other than that, only his stable of loyal bloodsacks know about it, and they aren't let out of his room (or wherever he goes to drink). So the "literally a monster" part wouldn't get them. But yeah, regardless of Kaius' program to expunge the EC and BoV from his country, Thrane wouldn't be happy with Kaius as king, that's for sure. The same is true for Jaela in Karnnath or the religiously open Breland (you want us to recognize a little girl PRIEST as our queen? Without voting on it or anything?). And most likely it would be Krozen and not Jaela herself who took such a demanding political office, given how busy her religious duties keep her (she doesn't even run thrane, the cardinals do). I don't think any country would be happy with a theocracy. If a citizen of Breland, Thrane or Karrnath wants a restored Galifar, that means monarchy generally, not theocracy. Who's left, Oargev of... where? Simply put, Aurala really is the only person with the personal magnetism to pull the nations together, should Aundair pull off the improbable (it almost certainly won't with its poor geographic position between Karnnath and Thrane, and its small population vis a vis breland). Of course, that is precisely WHY she is so ambitious and GOOD. Looking at the post-apocalyptic landscape of Khorvaire, she can see the unaviodable consequences of letting anyone else rule. Brought to you by your friendly local Aundairian Recruitment office. Enlist, and be part of a new golden age for Khorvaire! Really? Aundair? The nation that couldn't keep a few woodsmen from carving a chunk out of their hide? The nation that lost more ground to another of the Five (Thrane) than any nation had? Well, Cyre lost more ground than anyone, but that was to backstabbing mercs in both cases, and they're gone anyway, so it's moot.
Yakman 02-26-07, 12:15 PM	a) No one, not even Karrnathi citizens know that he's a monster. Not even the Emerald Claw or Blood of Vol know that he's a monster. Only the highest of high ups in the EC and BoV hierarchy know anything about it. You could count on one hand how many people in the Karrnathi government know about it. Other than that, only his stable of loyal bloodsacks know about it, and they aren't let out of his room (or wherever he goes to drink). So the "literally a monster" part wouldn't get them. But yeah, regardless of Kaius' program to expunge the EC and BoV from his country, Thrane wouldn't be happy with Kaius as king, that's for sure. But if Kaius were to take over Thrane, he'd have to actually go there to personalize his rule. And the bishops would probably know that he's a vampire when he shows up--detect evil, and turn undead and all that. So Kaius isn't going to conquer Thrane--or anyone else for that matter. I don't think any country would be happy with a theocracy. If a citizen of Breland, Thrane or Karrnath wants a restored Galifar, that means monarchy generally, not theocracy. But Thrane still has an heir of Jarot as the nominal head of state. A deal could almost certainly be worked out with local elites. The Silver Flame isn't really opposed to re-unification, I don't think. After all, the chaos of the war was a great evil, and the post-war division isn't good either. In my own campaign, Oargev is 3/4 of the way to re-uniting Galifar. He was given Karrnath by the other three powers after Kaius was deposed in a coup (the vampire is still out there though). He's made a marriage alliance with Aundair, and agreed to create a position of "High Priest of Galifar" with the Silver Flame, supplying a bishop to fill, although he's guaranteed religious freedom for all. Breland is still holding out, but he's made it clear to them that he doesn't want war, and would rather make a peaceful agreement bringing them back into the fold by allowing some form of local autonomy.
davethebrave371 02-26-07, 12:25 PM	In my own campaign, Oargev is 3/4 of the way to re-uniting Galifar. He was given Karrnath by the other three powers after Kaius was deposed in a coup (the vampire is still out there though). He's made a marriage alliance with Aundair, and agreed to create a position of "High Priest of Galifar" with the Silver Flame, supplying a bishop to fill, although he's guaranteed religious freedom for all. Breland is still holding out, but he's made it clear to them that he doesn't want war, and would rather make a peaceful agreement bringing them back into the fold by allowing some form of local autonomy. That's interesting. I wouldn't see Aurala approving of anyone but Aundair taking Karrnath, and I wouldn't see the Cardinals allowing anything but a purifying influence to take hold in the land of the undead worshippers. Especially given Atur. And Kaius being deposed is also interesting, as the only way I could see that happening is if his Warlords united to take him out because he was too pacifistic...which wouldn't lend itself well to a peace-loving foreigner taking the throne. If anything, I think the Warlords would unite and take out any "pretender", unless he promised them a war. And given Krozen's nature, I wouldn't see him being happy with religious freedom for all, even with a Flamite taking the position of High Priest of Galifar...and I also don't see anyone taking the Galifaran throne giving a minority religion (compared to the Host, it really is) that position. The Host priests would be outraged, and they number greater than Flamites, and they have more followers throughout Breland, Aundair, Karrnath and Thrane than the Silver Flame has. But, of course, I'm sure there are reasons for how this all happened in your game (the marriage being one of them...unless the marriage happened after the Karrnathi coup, in which case I still don't get why Aurala would agree).
Yakman 02-26-07, 12:42 PM	That's interesting. I wouldn't see Aurala approving of anyone but Aundair taking Karrnath, and I wouldn't see the Cardinals allowing anything but a purifying influence to take hold in the land of the undead worshippers. Especially given Atur. And Kaius being deposed is also interesting, as the only way I could see that happening is if his Warlords united to take him out because he was too pacifistic...which wouldn't lend itself well to a peace-loving foreigner taking the throne. If anything, I think the Warlords would unite and take out any "pretender", unless he promised them a war. And given Krozen's nature, I wouldn't see him being happy with religious freedom for all, even with a Flamite taking the position of High Priest of Galifar...and I also don't see anyone taking the Galifaran throne giving a minority religion (compared to the Host, it really is) that position. The Host priests would be outraged, and they number greater than Flamites, and they have more followers throughout Breland, Aundair, Karrnath and Thrane than the Silver Flame has. But, of course, I'm sure there are reasons for how this all happened in your game (the marriage being one of them...unless the marriage happened after the Karrnathi coup, in which case I still don't get why Aurala would agree). Well, what happened was that the Captain of the Palace Guard (not Kaius' personal guards, but the palace's guards) was having an affair with Kaius' elven wife. And he happens to be a Silver Flamer. Oargev, in my campaign being the head of Cyre's intelligence network knew about Kaius' "condition." He sent the PCs (and some professional undead hunters) to Korth on a 'diplomatic mission'--which made for a pretty interesting adventure, as the PCs were in the palace when everything went down. Long story short, Kaius got the boot and fled (fate still unknown), and the palace guard seized the capital. Karrnath's warlords, predictably, were rather riled up--some siding with the new government, most opposing it. The other three nations decide that a civil war in Karrnath is a bad idea, and form a council. Oargev manipulated the council into granting him a 'regency' in Karrnath until Kaius' nephew comes of age. The PCs had previously brought the remaining humans out of Darguun and to New Cyre, so he has quite a sizeable powerbase that Boranel was happy to get rid of, while Aurala wanted an ir'Wyrnan in charge. Thrane, of course, is desperate to avoid another war, and would rather have strong, intelligent Oargev in charge than whichever Karranathi has the biggest army. The PCs get to help Oargev move into Korth and establish himself--lots of cool adventures in the Karrnathi hinterlands, and battling the more recalcitrant warlords and their undead hosts--Vol wasn't really keen on the whole episode. Once Oargev was enthroned, he proposed a marriage alliance with Aurala's eldest daughter (in my game, he's in his mid-30s--his family was killed in the Mourning). Aurala jumps at the chance--her daughter would be queen of Karrnath. Rather interesting adventure there--the PCs went to bring the bride to Korth and they were jumped by villainous druids, who captured and planned to sacrifice the poor girl to a corrupted spirit of the woods. As for the "high priest" position, I was inspired by the Qing Dynasty making the Dalai Lama the "high priest" of the Empire. It was a minority religion, but it served to bind the western portions of the empire to the center. Thrane isn't officially ruled by Oargev (yet) and neither is Aundair (yet) but they are allied to Oargev's Karrnath.
davethebrave371 02-26-07, 01:21 PM	Well, what happened was that the Captain of the Palace Guard (not Kaius' personal guards, but the palace's guards) was having an affair with Kaius' elven wife. And he happens to be a Silver Flamer. Oargev, in my campaign being the head of Cyre's intelligence network knew about Kaius' "condition." He sent the PCs (and some professional undead hunters) to Korth on a 'diplomatic mission'--which made for a pretty interesting adventure, as the PCs were in the palace when everything went down. Long story short, Kaius got the boot and fled (fate still unknown), and the palace guard seized the capital. Karrnath's warlords, predictably, were rather riled up--some siding with the new government, most opposing it. My first issue with this is that the best intelligence groups in Khorvaire (the Royal Eyes and the Trust) don't know that Kaius is what he is. How would Oargev's little ragtag intelligence org know that? Phiarlan and Thuranni don't even know. The other three nations decide that a civil war in Karrnath is a bad idea, and form a council. Whoa, whoa, whoa! Hold up. Breland, Thrane and Aundair decided that civil war in Karrnath was a bad idea? If anything, Thrane and Aundair both would take advantage of the political instability to say that the current government is invalid without Kaius III, and then make their own moves across the water for Korth. If they could take the seat of Karrn the Conqueror, how good would that make them look as the next nation in line for the throne? Even if warlords hellbent on a war took over most of Karrnath, Thrane and Aundair would have armies in Korth before those warlords could sneeze. Oargev manipulated the council into granting him a 'regency' in Karrnath until Kaius' nephew comes of age. The PCs had previously brought the remaining humans out of Darguun and to New Cyre, so he has quite a sizeable powerbase that Boranel was happy to get rid of, while Aurala wanted an ir'Wyrnan in charge. Thrane, of course, is desperate to avoid another war, and would rather have strong, intelligent Oargev in charge than whichever Karranathi has the biggest army. Well, whichever Karrnathi has the biggest army just lost a whole crapload to the other warlords if they let the civil war run its course, and even the warlord with the biggest army is nothing compared to Thrane's armies. Combined, those warlords are a threat. But the whole idea is that they wouldn't be combined. The PCs get to help Oargev move into Korth and establish himself--lots of cool adventures in the Karrnathi hinterlands, and battling the more recalcitrant warlords and their undead hosts--Vol wasn't really keen on the whole episode. Once Oargev was enthroned, he proposed a marriage alliance with Aurala's eldest daughter (in my game, he's in his mid-30s--his family was killed in the Mourning). Aurala jumps at the chance--her daughter would be queen of Karrnath. Rather interesting adventure there--the PCs went to bring the bride to Korth and they were jumped by villainous druids, who captured and planned to sacrifice the poor girl to a corrupted spirit of the woods. As for the "high priest" position, I was inspired by the Qing Dynasty making the Dalai Lama the "high priest" of the Empire. It was a minority religion, but it served to bind the western portions of the empire to the center. Thrane isn't officially ruled by Oargev (yet) and neither is Aundair (yet) but they are allied to Oargev's Karrnath. No real issues with the latter half, assuming there were reasons for the former half. But I just can't see it. Obviously, it's your game, and you can always say, "Well that's what happened.", but I just can't see it.
Yakman 02-26-07, 02:52 PM	My first issue with this is that the best intelligence groups in Khorvaire (the Royal Eyes and the Trust) don't know that Kaius is what he is. How would Oargev's little ragtag intelligence org know that? Phiarlan and Thuranni don't even know. You don't want me to give it all away, do you? ) Whoa, whoa, whoa! Hold up. Breland, Thrane and Aundair decided that civil war in Karrnath was a bad idea? If anything, Thrane and Aundair both would take advantage of the political instability to say that the current government is invalid without Kaius III, and then make their own moves across the water for Korth. If they could take the seat of Karrn the Conqueror, how good would that make them look as the next nation in line for the throne? Even if warlords hellbent on a war took over most of Karrnath, Thrane and Aundair would have armies in Korth before those warlords could sneeze. The problem is that Aundair and Thrane are scared that each other would jump on Korth--neither is ready for war, and neither is sure who Breland would support in such a war. As such, they wanted another agent, who was relatively neutral (but amenable to all parties) to take over Karrnath before a military confrontation became inevitable. Thrane is devastated by war, and Aundair is not ready for war--certainly not against Thrane and Breland. As such, in order to prevent a war, they chose to maintain the status quo through Oargev. Well, whichever Karrnathi has the biggest army just lost a whole crapload to the other warlords if they let the civil war run its course, and even the warlord with the biggest army is nothing compared to Thrane's armies. Combined, those warlords are a threat. But the whole idea is that they wouldn't be combined. Again the danger is that Karrnath without a monarch is a threat to the status quo. Does the emergent warlord ally with Aundair against Thrane? Does he ally with Thrane against Aundair? Do Aundair and Breland want a royal who is not an ir'Wyrnan on the throne of Korth? What implications would this have on the Treaty of Thronehold? The Council of ABT decided to go with the safest course--and heck, there's a spare heir of Jarot sitting there!
davethebrave371 02-26-07, 04:15 PM	You don't want me to give it all away, do you? :) Well, again, Oargev's meager intelligence offerings have nothing compared to the Houses of Shadow, Aundair or Zilargo. If Oargev knew, they knew it years ago. The problem is that Aundair and Thrane are scared that each other would jump on Korth--neither is ready for war, and neither is sure who Breland would support in such a war. Five Nations seems to indicate the Breland would side with Aundair if such a thing were to happen. They border both, but the majority of skirmishes with Aundair stopped when the Eldeen Reaches seceded, so there is MAJOR bitterness againt Thrane, but the two nations who are friendliest to each other are Aundair and Breland (Breland may not have fought Karrnath much, but damn are they creepy). As such, they wanted another agent, who was relatively neutral (but amenable to all parties) to take over Karrnath before a military confrontation became inevitable. Thrane is devastated by war, and Aundair is not ready for war--certainly not against Thrane and Breland. As such, in order to prevent a war, they chose to maintain the status quo through Oargev. They're all devastated by war, but I don't think that'd stop them from letting Karrnath get MORE devastated by war, and then swooping in to pick up the pieces. They're not even Karrnath, by Treaty standards, with Kaius out of the way. Thrane might even let Aundair have it if Breland stepped up to the plate, or negotiate to give back their chunk of Aundair if they can take Korth. But I don't see them suing for peace. Aundair and Thrane didn't even want peace. It was Kaius first, and then Boranel agreed. Thrane and Karrnath did it because of pressure, however they may give lip service to peace (Breland had a huge military production rate and more magical whatsits than Aundair, which is scary considering Arcanix is in Aundair, and Karrnath had all those fancy undead). Again the danger is that Karrnath without a monarch is a threat to the status quo. Does the emergent warlord ally with Aundair against Thrane? Does he ally with Thrane against Aundair? Do Aundair and Breland want a royal who is not an ir'Wyrnan on the throne of Korth? What implications would this have on the Treaty of Thronehold? The Council of ABT decided to go with the safest course--and heck, there's a spare heir of Jarot sitting there! The "emergent warlord" wouldn't even be recognized. Aundair and Thrane would both be stronger than the emergent warlord when he did, in fact, emerge. They would laugh at any attempts at diplomacy, and laugh harder at any military action. Aundair ALONE, without Breland's help, could take out the winner of that warlord bloodbath. Aurala would step in there, and with Boranel to watch her back, Thrane wouldn't do a thing. The safest course is not keeping the status quo in that nation, because while Karrnath will become weak enough for attack with all the warlords rebelling against the Cyran pretender, they have no set themselves up to not be able to invade my legitamizing it. And I don't see Aurala or the Cardinals being that dumb.
Yakman 02-26-07, 04:35 PM	Well, again, Oargev's meager intelligence offerings have nothing compared to the Houses of Shadow, Aundair or Zilargo. If Oargev knew, they knew it years ago. Kaius became a Vampire 90 years ago, when Cyre was still around. I never mentioned that Oargev had just learned that Kaius was a vampire... Five Nations seems to indicate the Breland would side with Aundair if such a thing were to happen. They border both, but the majority of skirmishes with Aundair stopped when the Eldeen Reaches seceded, so there is MAJOR bitterness againt Thrane, but the two nations who are friendliest to each other are Aundair and Breland (Breland may not have fought Karrnath much, but damn are they creepy). But Breland would not want Aundair to seize Karrnath either. Breland wants a status quo, and can beat either Aundair OR Thane individually (although not both at the same time). Aundair is therefore not able to take Karrnath, and Thrane isn't either. Breland can't for geographic reasons. As such, the status quo must be maintained at all costs--no one wants a war right now, and the risks of chaos in Karrnath causing such a war are too great. They're all devastated by war, but I don't think that'd stop them from letting Karrnath get MORE devastated by war, and then swooping in to pick up the pieces. They're not even Karrnath, by Treaty standards, with Kaius out of the way. Thrane might even let Aundair have it if Breland stepped up to the plate, or negotiate to give back their chunk of Aundair if they can take Korth. But I don't see them suing for peace. Aundair and Thrane didn't even want peace. It was Kaius first, and then Boranel agreed. Thrane and Aundair did it because of pressure, however they may give lip service to peace (Breland had a huge military production rate and more magical whatsits than Aundair, which is scary considering Arcanix is in Aundair, and Karrnath had all those fancy undead). But the dynamic has changed. Peace has been achieved. However, it is delicate, and based on a balance of power between the Four Nations. No two can beat any other two. If Karrnath is removed from the equation, Thrane and Aundair have a major problem--neither can hold off Breland on its own. As such, their interests are threefold: 1) Prevent the other (whether A or T) from controlling K 2) Prevent a military alliance between the other (whether A or T) with B 3) Restore K, so as to ensure the balance of power The "emergent warlord" wouldn't even be recognized. Aundair and Thrane would both be stronger than the emergent warlord when he did, in fact, emerge. They would laugh at any attempts at diplomacy, and laugh harder at any military action. Aundair ALONE, without Breland's help, could take out the winner of that warlord bloodbath. Aurala would step in there, and with Boranel to watch her back, Thrane wouldn't do a thing. The safest course is not keeping the status quo in that nation, because while Karrnath will become weak enough for attack with all the warlords rebelling against the Cyran pretender, they have no set themselves up to not be able to invade my legitamizing it. And I don't see Aurala or the Cardinals being that dumb. The problem is not the chaos in Karrnath so much as the risk that one of the remaining three would jump into the fray--Karrnath's weakness could cause a new war, not her strength. Why would Boranel allow Aurala to form a juggernaut larger than him? That would be dumb--no matter how much good will he has with her (and I don't really see it)--he's not going to allow her to control the northern half of Galifar. Aurala, meanwhile, isn't going to risk war with Thrane while she's entangled in Karrnath, even if she could get some guarantee of Brelish neutrality. The same goes for Thrane. As for Breland, Boranel does not want war, but he will not allow Karrnath's annexation. The solution is for the three powers to agree that Karrnath is Oargev's responsibility.
davethebrave371 02-26-07, 04:47 PM	Kaius became a Vampire 90 years ago, when Cyre was still around. I never mentioned that Oargev had just learned that Kaius was a vampire... Again, as of 998 YK, none of the other intelligence orgs learned it, and Aundair and Zilargo's orgs have always been the best national orgs. And him becoming a vamp would have been used during the war against him, for sure, if it had been found out during the war. Propaganda, etc. If there was even the slightest evidence, especially given his undead army, people would have bought it and ran with it. They never would have stopped fighting Karrnath, because every nation would know he was a vampire. But Breland would not want Aundair to seize Karrnath either. Breland wants a status quo, and can beat either Aundair OR Thane individually (although not both at the same time). Aundair is therefore not able to take Karrnath, and Thrane isn't either. Breland can't for geographic reasons. As such, the status quo must be maintained at all costs--no one wants a war right now, and the risks of chaos in Karrnath causing such a war are too great. Well, the chaos is going to be there regardless, given the virulent opposition people will have to a Cyran on the throne. Not just warlords, but the general population. Remember they shared a border. Karrnathis are not on good terms with Cyrans. And now all these refugees coming and taking our jobs? From CYRE?! I really don't see how it'd be any different, except it's actually more unstable in that the weakened military of a warlord state is attackable by the other nations legally, whereas they've made it legitimate, so now when (not if, when) they get so weak they're a target too irresistable for Aundair and Thrane, they'll be violaing the Treaty and starting all-out war. But the dynamic has changed. Peace has been achieved. However, it is delicate, and based on a balance of power between the Four Nations. No two can beat any other two. If Karrnath is removed from the equation, Thrane and Aundair have a major problem--neither can hold off Breland on its own. As such, their interests are threefold: 1) Prevent the other (whether A or T) from controlling K 2) Prevent a military alliance between the other (whether A or T) with B 3) Restore K, so as to ensure the balance of power I'll cede this point in that it's true if all the other factors weren't out of character and tactically unsound. The problem is not the chaos in Karrnath so much as the risk that one of the remaining three would jump into the fray--Karrnath's weakness could cause a new war, not her strength. Why would Boranel allow Aurala to form a juggernaut larger than him? That would be dumb--no matter how much good will he has with her (and I don't really see it)--he's not going to allow her to control the northern half of Galifar. Aurala, meanwhile, isn't going to risk war with Thrane while she's entangled in Karrnath, even if she could get some guarantee of Brelish neutrality. The same goes for Thrane. That's actually a good point. I suppose Boranel wouldn't want Aundair having that much power. P.S. Thanks for being civil while defending your points. That's not meant to be patronizing or anything, it's just that there are some board members who take a criticism of something not even in their game, much less stuff actually in their game, as a criticism of them personally, and get really rude about it. I'm quite thankful that you're being a good sport.
Yakman 02-26-07, 04:58 PM	Again, as of 998 YK, none of the other intelligence orgs learned it, and Aundair and Zilargo's orgs have always been the best national orgs. And him becoming a vamp would have been used during the war against him, for sure, if it had been found out during the war. Propaganda, etc. If there was even the slightest evidence, especially given his undead army, people would have bought it and ran with it. They never would have stopped fighting Karrnath, because every nation would know he was a vampire. Again, I don't want to give it away. But Oargev knew and acted. How he knew, why he acted when he did are still mysteries and I don't want to say right now. Well, the chaos is going to be there regardless, given the virulent opposition people will have to a Cyran on the throne. Not just warlords, but the general population. Remember they shared a border. Karrnathis are not on good terms with Cyrans. And now all these refugees coming and taking our jobs? From CYRE?! I really don't see how it'd be any different, except it's actually more unstable in that the weakened military of a warlord state is attackable by the other nations legally, whereas they've made it legitimate, so now when (not if, when) they get so weak they're a target too irresistable for Aundair and Thrane, they'll be violating the Treaty and starting all-out war. The Chaos certainly is there. And Oargev fights daily to keep it down. He employed a divide-and-conquer strategy, co-opting some warlords and destroying others. The peace party that supported Kaius was generally supportive of him, while the war party remains a major hassle. The PCs have had a number of adventures in this vein. The key for ABT is not that Karrnath is in chaos, but that they have all agreed to stay out of that chaos so as to avoid war. As for Cyran refugees, Karrnath has a major labor shortage, and the Cyrans are skilled workers. There's plenty of land and work to go around. I'll cede this point in that it's true if all the other factors weren't out of character and tactically unsound. I don't see it that way--realpolitik and all. The key to maintaining the Treaty of Thronehold is to keep any one Nation from gaining too much power. As such, it is in the interests of any two nations to keep the third from conquering Karrnath. It is in the interests of all parties to avoid war--everyone's bankrupt, everyone is ruined, and there's a sober understanding of what such a conflict would entail. For comparison, look at Europe after WW2--the USA could have tried to prevent the USSR from dominating eastern europe, but chose not to, recognizing that a fresh war was not worth the cost of allowing soviet control of the east. In Eberron, neither Aurala, nor the bishops, nor Boranel is under any illusion of what a resumption of the Last War would entail, and none of them is anxious for a fresh round of conflict. Let Karrnath simmer and stew, they say, and we'll agree to stay away. P.S. Thanks for being civil while defending your points. That's not meant to be patronizing or anything, it's just that there are some board members who take a criticism of something not even in their game, much less stuff actually in their game, as a criticism of them personally, and get really rude about it. I'm quite thankful that you're being a good sport. No problemo.
davethebrave371 02-26-07, 05:13 PM	Again, I don't want to give it away. But Oargev knew and acted. How he knew, why he acted when he did are still mysteries and I don't want to say right now. Fair enough, your players probably read the boards. I know what that's like. The Chaos certainly is there. And Oargev fights daily to keep it down. He employed a divide-and-conquer strategy, co-opting some warlords and destroying others. The peace party that supported Kaius was generally supportive of him, while the war party remains a major hassle. The PCs have had a number of adventures in this vein. The key for ABT is not that Karrnath is in chaos, but that they have all agreed to stay out of that chaos so as to avoid war. As for Cyran refugees, Karrnath has a major labor shortage, and the Cyrans are skilled workers. There's plenty of land and work to go around. Sounds reasonable, except that prejudice is usually blind to need. It doesn't matter if the jobs the Cyrans take aren't able to be filled without them, Karrnathi sentiment isn't going to change because they're oh so helpful. Just look at sentiment towards foreigners in...well...most countries. I know here in British Columbia we didn't always look kindly on Chinese, Japanese and Indo-Canadians "taking our jobs" to the point where there was a case that went to the Supreme Court of Canada about Chinese people being able to hire white people or not. I don't see it that way--realpolitik and all. The key to maintaining the Treaty of Thronehold is to keep any one Nation from gaining too much power. As such, it is in the interests of any two nations to keep the third from conquering Karrnath. It is in the interests of all parties to avoid war--everyone's bankrupt, everyone is ruined, and there's a sober understanding of what such a conflict would entail. For comparison, look at Europe after WW2--the USA could have tried to prevent the USSR from dominating eastern europe, but chose not to, recognizing that a fresh war was not worth the cost of allowing soviet control of the east. In Eberron, neither Aurala, nor the bishops, nor Boranel is under any illusion of what a resumption of the Last War would entail, and none of them is anxious for a fresh round of conflict. Let Karrnath simmer and stew, they say, and we'll agree to stay away. That's a fair comparison, assuming there are spies all over the frickin' place from ABT, which is pretty much a given considering Cyre's ragtag nothing of an intelligence group and Karrnath always having been last place in international spy work.
Yakman 02-26-07, 05:24 PM	Sounds reasonable, except that prejudice is usually blind to need. It doesn't matter if the jobs the Cyrans take aren't able to be filled without them, Karrnathi sentiment isn't going to change because they're oh so helpful. Just look at sentiment towards foreigners in...well...most countries. I know here in British Columbia we didn't always look kindly on Chinese, Japanese and Indo-Canadians "taking our jobs" to the point where there was a case that went to the Supreme Court of Canada about Chinese people being able to hire white people or not. I looked at this problem and solved it in several ways: 1) Cyran farmers were settled on land vacated during the war, of which there is plenty in Karrnath. This way, not only is the rural economy stimulated, but Oargev maintains a distinctly Cyran base of support among these colonists, rather than spreading them out as impoverished farm workers. 2) Cyrans represent a skilled worker segment in a labor market that is desperate for workers--look at europe after ww2, when millions of southern europeans and turks and arabs moved to the war ravaged nations to take part in the re-building efforts. Those guys were unskilled of course, but the shop owners are going to want the Cyrans--who the fluff makes out as the best artisans in Galifar--working for them. This is going to cause some disruption, but everyone is desperate for new workers, so it's not a reason for rioting. 3) the Blood of Vol seems to be an extremely tolerant faith--the importance is that people are alive. I've used it as a force for tolerance in war-ravaged Karrnath. That's a fair comparison, assuming there are spies all over the frickin' place from ABT, which is pretty much a given considering Cyre's ragtag nothing of an intelligence group and Karrnath always having been last place in international spy work. oh yeah. everywhere. and large sections of the country are in chaos. but central Karrnath is being brought under control, slowly and surely. Oargev is wily, cunning, and willing to work with almost anyone.
davethebrave371 02-26-07, 05:32 PM	I looked at this problem and solved it in several ways: 1) Cyran farmers were settled on land vacated during the war, of which there is plenty in Karrnath. This way, not only is the rural economy stimulated, but Oargev maintains a distinctly Cyran base of support among these colonists, rather than spreading them out as impoverished farm workers. 2) Cyrans represent a skilled worker segment in a labor market that is desperate for workers--look at europe after ww2, when millions of southern europeans and turks and arabs moved to the war ravaged nations to take part in the re-building efforts. Those guys were unskilled of course, but the shop owners are going to want the Cyrans--who the fluff makes out as the best artisans in Galifar--working for them. This is going to cause some disruption, but everyone is desperate for new workers, so it's not a reason for rioting. 3) the Blood of Vol seems to be an extremely tolerant faith--the importance is that people are alive. I've used it as a force for tolerance in war-ravaged Karrnath. oh yeah. everywhere. and large sections of the country are in chaos. but central Karrnath is being brought under control, slowly and surely. Oargev is wily, cunning, and willing to work with almost anyone. Seems decent enough. Wouldn't use it in my game, but we can agree to disagree there. Of course, I still haven't the faintest how Oargev knows, but I'm sure you've got a good reason, as these all seem to be.
Yakman 02-26-07, 05:39 PM	Seems decent enough. Wouldn't use it in my game, but we can agree to disagree there. Well, actually we can agree there, because I'm not really sure where to go right now with the campaign... I'm thinking of just shuffling everyone off to Xen'drik so as not to deal with Khorvaire anymore :D
davethebrave371 02-26-07, 05:58 PM	Well, actually we can agree there, because I'm not really sure where to go right now with the campaign... I'm thinking of just shuffling everyone off to Xen'drik so as not to deal with Khorvaire anymore :D Hey, SoS just came out, and it's practially a self-contained campaign setting on its own! You could do lots of fun stuff with it. You turned Khorvaire on its head, see what you can do with Sarlona!
Yakman 02-28-07, 12:49 PM	Hey, SoS just came out, and it's practially a self-contained campaign setting on its own! You could do lots of fun stuff with it. You turned Khorvaire on its head, see what you can do with Sarlona! Well, I was thinking about this: Remember how there used to be 13 moons? And somehow between the apogee of giant civilization and its fall, one got 'lost'? Most people assume that it sort of 'darkened' or became permanently remote, or was thrown out of the solar system or something, because that's what the giants did to dal quor. But what if it 'disappearing' has nothing to do with the super-weapon? What if it didn't truly 'disappear'? What if the giants decided to use it as a weapon against the dragons--and it's heading straight for Argonessen?!?!?? How does that work?
davethebrave371 02-28-07, 08:08 PM	Well, I was thinking about this: Remember how there used to be 13 moons? And somehow between the apogee of giant civilization and its fall, one got 'lost'? Most people assume that it sort of 'darkened' or became permanently remote, or was thrown out of the solar system or something, because that's what the giants did to dal quor. But what if it 'disappearing' has nothing to do with the super-weapon? What if it didn't truly 'disappear'? What if the giants decided to use it as a weapon against the dragons--and it's heading straight for Argonessen?!?!?? How does that work? It's been heading there for over 10,000 years?
Yakman 03-01-07, 10:55 AM	It's been heading there for over 10,000 years? Better late than never!