Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Korhal IV 02-19-07, 05:07 PM	Riedra: 1.9 million citizens Aundair: 2.0 Thrane: 2.3 Karrnath: 2.5 Breland: 3.5 Now, we already know there's some trouble with the population density of the Big Four, but for each of the war-ravaged nations to have a larger population than Riedra, which has enjoyed centuries of peace? Gwah? Obviously, something sinister is at work. Do the Inspired limit the population of Riedra in some way? Is the dissident problem markedly larger than we assume? Subtopic: How is it possible destabilize and destroy the Inspired regime? I've just finished reading Brave New World, and Riedra is so similar that I am inspired to strike at it in effigy. I think one of the key points is to destroy as many hanbalai as possible while escaping detection, which is something only characters of exceptional talent can be expected to pull off.
Hellcow 02-19-07, 05:35 PM	Riedra: 1.9 million citizens Where are you getting this number, Korhal? By SoS, Riedra has over 13,000,000 inhabitants. (Still leaves the world extremely sparsely populated, especially if you use the listed scale, but it needed to be SOMEWHAT on the same scale as the ECS...)
ornitholestes 02-19-07, 05:42 PM	Hm... I'm looking at Secrets of Sarlona (page 43) and the "Riedra at a Glance" section (bottom of the page) has got the population at almost 13.9 million. I'm not sure where your figure came from, but if there are conflicting numbers I would go with the 13.9 and chalk it up to a typo. Subtopic: How is it possible destabilize and destroy the Inspired regime? I've just finished reading Brave New World, and Riedra is so similar that I am inspired to strike at it in effigy. I think one of the key points is to destroy as many hanbalai as possible while escaping detection, which is something only characters of exceptional talent can be expected to pull off. I also saw the Brave New world (and 1984) similarity, though at least in Riedra there are some factions and powerful individuals that might bring hope to the situation. Destroying the Hanbalai is one possibility and, while challenging, might make a fun campaign for high level characters. I can see some other possibilities. Powerful Outside Intervention In Eberron there are some pretty powerful outside forces that might be able to put up a fight against Riedra. The 5 nations is an obvious option but they are so divided it would be very difficult. Aerenal and Argonessen are probably your best bets - the Riedrans have not pursued relations with either nation. This may indicated the inspired are afraid of these forces perhaps because of their magical lore or knowledge of the prophecy. While these factions may not be able to topic the inspired (OK the dragons might), if they cause enough damage Adar and the other dissident factions could cease upon the opportunity. Of course, with both Aerenal and Argonessen the difficulty is getting them to care about the situation and intervene. The Evil:devil: Method By this, of course, I mean releasing a Rakshasha Raja or Daelkyr from the bowels of Khyber below Riedra. This method is not exactly moral and may well backfire if Inspired find a way to easily dispatch it (making them look all the more heroic) but at least it would be fun! Eldritch Machine The catch-all solution to any problem! This method could be fun, but is probably the least satisfying. Butt-Kicking for Goodness A bunch of level 20+ over-optimized PCs fly into Riedra, drop spells and bombs (and epic frenzied berserkers). After the beat the crap out of the inspired, they plane shift to Dal Quor and kick their butts also. This method may not be subtle and may wreck campaign believability, but I'm sure someone will do it anyways. :D Turning of An Age The Path of Light is Correct, years of peaceful mediation pay off and the dreaming dark simply vanishes to be replaced with something much better. This one probably has the least exciting adventures involved, but hey there is little collateral damage. Thats all I've got for now. . .
Korhal IV 02-19-07, 05:54 PM	Where are you getting this number, Korhal? By SoS, Riedra has over 13,000,000 inhabitants. (Still leaves the world extremely sparsely populated, especially if you use the listed scale, but it needed to be SOMEWHAT on the same scale as the ECS...) Err...I was looking at Pyrine, not Riedra. WHOOPS. Ornitholestes, good start on the topic. I'd like to rule out Turning of an Age and Eldritch Machine, just 'cause those are always up to the individual DM. Argonessen seems like a cop-out too, and the Undying don't stretch far past Aerenal (iirc, they get weaker the farther they are from the manifest zones?), making it impossible for them to deal with the Riedrans except on home turf, where they're unbeatable. The Riedrans likewise probably don't bother with the Aereni because the Aereni don't dream, ergo are unrelated to their problem. Evil Method seems deliciously appropriate - even if the Inspired beat down the released rajah (I'm going to go with rajah because it doesn't seem that the daelkyr made it as far as Sarlona since they lost out to the Gatekeepers), it shakes up their myth of godliness. Do you think the Inspired *could* beat down a rajah? The problem, of course, is that instead of just making the Inspired your enemies, you're dragging down the Silver Flame and the Chamber on your butt to boot. I'll comment on Powerful Forces when I'm done with the book as a whole - just up to the Tundra now.
The Dreaming Duck 02-19-07, 05:57 PM	Subtopic: How is it possible destabilize and destroy the Inspired regime? Subsubtopic... what would be the consequences of doing this? Whatever opinion a Khork has about Riedran life, Riedran is stable. The majority of its people live stable lives and have food and shelter. Forcibly shattering the system of the Inspired would likely result in chaos, civil war, famine, etc., etc. Is that actually a heroic thing to do? To me it's one of those Eberron puzzles: we know the Inspired are bad, but the consequences of removing them could be far worse. Really, it seems to me that Ornitholestes has it with the Turning of the Age. Who knows how to accomplish it, but this would be the way to remove the Inspried or even transform Riedra into something better with minimal suffering on the part of the Riedrans.
Korhal IV 02-19-07, 06:04 PM	Subsubtopic... what would be the consequences of doing this? Whatever opinion a Khork has about Riedran life, Riedran is stable. The majority of its people live stable lives and have food and shelter. Forcibly shattering the system of the Inspired would likely result in chaos, civil war, famine, etc., etc. Is that actually a heroic thing to do? To me it's one of those Eberron puzzles: we know the Inspired are bad, but the consequences of removing them could be far worse. "In fact, said Mustapha Mond, "you're claiming the right to be unhappy." "All right then," said the Savage defiantly, "I'm claiming the right to be unhappy." "Not to mention the right to grow old and ugly and impotent; the right to have syphilis and cancer; the right to have too little to eat; the right to be lousy; the right to live in constant apprehension of what may happen tomorrow; the right to catch typhoid; the right to be tortured by unspeakble pains of every kind." There was a long silence. "I claim them all," said the Savage at last. Mustapha Mond shrugged his shoulders. "You're welcome," he said. --Brave New World, page 240.
UnderworldLord 02-19-07, 06:05 PM	I don't think turning of the age would work. At least not if the quori stayed in the inspired host. I mean, the kalashtar, and that docent got away with it. Also, if there is a turning, what about those living prison cells [what race is that again]?
Korhal IV 02-19-07, 06:11 PM	I don't think turning of the age would work. At least not if the quori stayed in the inspired host. I mean, the kalashtar, and that docent got away with it. Also, if there is a turning, what about those living prison cells [what race is that again]? Those would be the elans. I don't think they're much of a factor - the quori spirits within them are helpless to manipulate the host. You're right, the turning of the age might not wipe out all of the quori, but it would ensure that killing a given Inspired would also kill the quori which controls him, for good.
UnderworldLord 02-19-07, 06:17 PM	Thats assuming they are physically trapped on the prime material. But what if they aren't? But what if the rest of the Quori do like kalashtar did? You've simply reversed the role of the conquered and the conquerees.
The Dreaming Duck 02-19-07, 06:19 PM	"All right then," said the Savage defiantly, "I'm claiming the right to be unhappy." But you have that right already. If you want these things, live in Khorvaire, or Adar, or Syrkarn. Even Riedrans can take the Summit Road. In removing the Inspired, you're taking away other people's right to BE happy and secure. The Riedrans consider Khorks to be violent, chaotic barbarians. Most Riedrans are happy with their lives and civilization. Do you have the right to decide that your way of life is better than theirs and enforce it upon them? Obviously it's something that we see quite often in our world. There's many people who may say that "Freedom is a moral imperative! We must free them!" I'm just saying that they should consider how many might suffer or die as a result of their actions. It's Eberron - good and evil aren't always easy.
johnkretzer 02-19-07, 06:40 PM	Subsubtopic... what would be the consequences of doing this? Whatever opinion a Khork has about Riedran life, Riedran is stable. The majority of its people live stable lives and have food and shelter. Forcibly shattering the system of the Inspired would likely result in chaos, civil war, famine, etc., etc. Is that actually a heroic thing to do? To me it's one of those Eberron puzzles: we know the Inspired are bad, but the consequences of removing them could be far worse. Really, it seems to me that Ornitholestes has it with the Turning of the Age. Who knows how to accomplish it, but this would be the way to remove the Inspried or even transform Riedra into something better with minimal suffering on the part of the Riedrans. But the turning of the ages could lead to exactly the same chaos, civil war, famine, etc. That any other method might have as a result. The Turning of the age means all their leaders are gone replaced either by nothing or even worse the empty vessels. Personaly the best way is to show the normal citizens what is being done to them.
UnderworldLord 02-19-07, 07:49 PM	And just think what that empty vessel has experienced under the control of the Quori nightmares and the Dreaming Dark.
Korhal IV 02-19-07, 08:09 PM	But you have that right already. If you want these things, live in Khorvaire, or Adar, or Syrkarn. Even Riedrans can take the Summit Road. Of course they can take it - if they find out it exists, if they find someone who works for it, if they can afford to take it (cash-wise or simply because the Inspired will take their wrath out upon family members - I imagine Gerazan's story on page 90 is not unique - or because they must care for dependents who cannot make the journey), and if they survive it, then yes, the Summit Road is a way out. For 95% of Riedran wannabe-escapees, however, the Summit Road is either not an option, or it ends in death. The Inspired aren't exactly issuing passports post-haste.
The Dreaming Duck 02-19-07, 10:36 PM	For 95% of Riedran wannabe-escapees, however, the Summit Road is either not an option, or it ends in death. None of which changes my point. As presented, 99.9% of Riedrans aren't wannabe-escapees. They have a secure and stable life, both physically and mentally. What you're describing is essentially a series of attacks to destroy their power grid - which provides them with food (teleportation network), light, mental security, and communications - and attacking the leaders that 99.9% of them adore. You're imposing suffering on people to try to force them to change their lifestyle, when they're happy with the lives they have. Even the kalashtar have avoided this sort of overt action in the past, seeking either to target the Inspired directly or engaging in the passive resistance which they hope will turn the age. Beyond that, even if the Inspired disappeared tomorrow, after a thousand years of indoctrination, what are the odds that the people would abandon the Path of Inspiration? This is a tradition that stretches back a thousand years, and which SAVED their people from war. If the Inspired vanished, would they suddenly drop everything and model a new nation after Breland? Or would they do their best to continue as they had been, allowing the Chosen to rules as best as they could, and fervently praying for the return of te il-Altas to guide and protect them once more? The Inspired care for the needs of their subjects. What the people of Riedra lack is the power to choose the course of their own lives, or to have whatever luxuries they might want. But if you tell a typical Riedran farmer "Come to Breland! You can follow any profession you want, and if you earn enough money you can buy whatever you want", he's going to say "I am following the path that will lead me to elevation in the next life... what could be more important than that? As for your coins, gold is the tongue of the altavar." Essentially, Riedrans are deeply religious, and religion isn't logical. How will you prove to the farmer that he's not going to come back in a higher form in the next life? Are you even sure that he won't? If you consider how powerful religion is in our world, and that the Riedrans have had not only centuries of verbal and psychic indoctrination, but add to that the fact that the Path has brought their nation internal peace and prosperity... it's going to be a tough nut to crack. And, of course, if you DO crack it, and the Path of Inspiration falls apart - what takes its place? It seems to me that the most likely scenario would be the military seizing power and the creation of hundreds of warlord states. Is that better? Will the typical farmer be any more free toiling for a local warlord than he is working for the Inspired? I'm taking the side of the Traveler, and I don't mean to imply in any way that people SHOULDN'T oppose the Inspired. I'm just saying that as with many things in Eberron, it's not a simple black and white situation. WE know the Inspired are evil and a threat to Eberron itself; but at the same time, they are providing food and safety to 13,000,000 people. A completely different option is to play up the rift between the Thousand Eyes and the Dreaming Dark. The Thousand Eyes are only interested in Riedran stability. If they became the dominant power among the Quori, you'd stop the expansionist schemes, and Riedra wouldn't pose a threat to Khorvaire. At that point, you could negotiate with the leaders of the Thousand Eyes; who knows, perhaps you can convince them to issue passports, or at least allow those who truly want to leave the freedom to do so. Unlikely? Maybe. Nonetheless, working with the quori to support a coup against the Devourer could at least allow for slower and more stable change in Riedra - a shift that wouldn't be as catastrophic for the people of the nation.
The Dreaming Duck 02-19-07, 10:45 PM	And just think what that empty vessel has experienced under the control of the Quori nightmares and the Dreaming Dark. Which is a valid point on a variety of levels. The vessels are, by and large, willing participants in the process... remember that while the Quori have primary vessels, they do switch from body to body, and it's not like a vessel rebels the moment it's released. What's been said in the past is that quori possession is like having the quori "think with your mind" - that it's hard to tell it's thoughts from your own, and that over time the vessels end up becoming mirrors of the spirits and acting like them even when the spirits are absent. Page 54 notes that many important positions are held by former vessels who are no longer used as vessels, but who have been shaped in this way. As such, if the quori vanished tomorrow, it's not like most Inspired would "snap out of it". They'd be afraid and confused... but most would presumably continue to act as they had before, guided by the last thoughts of the possessing spirit.
Hellcow 02-19-07, 10:55 PM	Just to return to the original post: I know population and population density are a continued subject of concern. Personally, I do think the world is too large and the numbers a little to low, but WotC's not going to go back and change the maps at this point in time. As such, my suggestion is to reset the numbers to whatever you're comfortable with... but to keep the ratios the same. I don't care if Aundair has 2 million or 20 million... what concerns me is that it's almost half the size of Breland. Likewise, the key with Riedra is that it does have more people than all five (er, four) nations combined. Change the precise numbers if you want - but that ratio should remain intact.
ArcTan 02-20-07, 12:28 AM	Err...I was looking at Pyrine, not Riedra. WHOOPS. Ornitholestes, good start on the topic. I'd like to rule out Turning of an Age and Eldritch Machine, just 'cause those are always up to the individual DM. As though any other option isn't? The specifics of what a released rajah can do are less handwavy than the specifics of the Turning of the Age, I guess. But still handwavy.
JulesCARV 02-20-07, 03:05 AM	Maybe the population of Riedra would go down to 1.9 million if some "hero" got it into his head to kill off the Inspired, throwing the whole country into anarchy and warlordism. ;)
DwarfPcfan 02-20-07, 10:18 AM	Riedra is distincly higher level then Khorvaire with at least 4-6 inspired lords in the 12-15th level psionic class range (mostly telepaths) as well as a distincly powerful 20th level psion inspired lord:eek: :eek: !! Seems to me that beatin Riedra should come with epic firepower (dragons of Argonessen, Daelkyr, etc), as a matter of fact a war with Riedra would make an excellent epic campaign for Eberron:plotting: :schemes: Oh just got an idea for a campign I really have to write down...
Hellcow 02-20-07, 11:26 AM	Riedra is distincly higher level then Khorvaire with at least 4-6 inspired lords in the 12-15th level psionic class range (mostly telepaths) as well as a distincly powerful 20th level psion inspired lord:eek: :eek: !! More than that, actually. By my count, there's four 20th-level kalaraq lords mentioned by name in the book. And certainly a number of high level seers, nomads, kineticists and shapers are mentioned in addition to the telepaths. However, this doesn't mean that the level of the COMMON person is higher than Khorvaire. Most soldiers of the Harmonious Shield are warriors, not fighters (though there are elite fighter units). So power is out there, but you aren't going to find a 16th level egoist in every village.
snakebliskan 02-20-07, 12:21 PM	More than that, actually. By my count, there's four 20th-level kalaraq lords mentioned by name in the book. And certainly a number of high level seers, nomads, kineticists and shapers are mentioned in addition to the telepaths. However, this doesn't mean that the level of the COMMON person is higher than Khorvaire. Most soldiers of the Harmonious Shield are warriors, not fighters (though there are elite fighter units). So power is out there, but you aren't going to find a 16th level egoist in every village. I can see what hellcow is saying. But i must say that if the psionic forces of the inspired invaded the 5 nations the 5 nations would be way over matched! psionics are way over powered compared to magic that i cant see anyone being able to stop them! psions are so much better than mages and there like. case in point an 8th lvl kineticist can cast a energy ball of what ever energy discriptor that they wish way more times than a wizard of the same lvl can cast fire ball. so the shear power lvl of them is dramaticly more powerfull...
Yakman 02-20-07, 12:33 PM	There's a few ways to topple Riedra. ---I think the easiest is the Riedran Civil War--something divides the Inspired against each other and the empire collapses. This does not eliminate Inspired rule, but it does eliminate the unity of Riedra. Potential for such a conflict comes from the Thousand Eyes v. Dreaming Dark rivalry, or more petty things--two great lords want to use the same empty vessel as a host. The PCs don't need to implement this--and it doesn't even have to be explained--but Riedra is tearing itself apart. This could give an opening for anti-Inspired forces to come to the fore or it could lead to a permanent division of the country or whatever you want. ---The Dragons of Argonessen destroy it. They have the power (maybe), but do they have the will? The 'Prophecy' can be used to justify any action that they take. ---Epic Level PCs decide to go to whoop school. and my personal favorite: ---Xoriat goes coterminal on them.
goblin_pride 02-20-07, 12:41 PM	I can see what hellcow is saying. But i must say that if the psionic forces of the inspired invaded the 5 nations the 5 nations would be way over matched! psionics are way over powered compared to magic that i cant see anyone being able to stop them! psions are so much better than mages and there like. case in point an 8th lvl kineticist can cast a energy ball of what ever energy discriptor that they wish way more times than a wizard of the same lvl can cast fire ball. so the shear power lvl of them is dramaticly more powerfull... Feeling a bit like a gobbo are you? Riedra wouldn't be terribly tough, you've learned tactics for fighting magic, psionics is just another obstacle to overcome. I'm not saying it would be a cakewalk, but I can't see it as impossible.
Yakman 02-20-07, 12:54 PM	You also have to consider that Khorvaire's entire infrastructure is built around war, while the Riedrans don't seem terribly adept at it. While a Galifaran invasion of Riedra would be doomed to failure, so would a Riedran invasion of Khorvaire--every adult man has some military training and most are veterans. The pervasive influence of magic in Khorvaire would also be a major advantage to the defenders.
Kreistor2 02-20-07, 01:21 PM	I can see what hellcow is saying. But i must say that if the psionic forces of the inspired invaded the 5 nations the 5 nations would be way over matched! psionics are way over powered compared to magic that i cant see anyone being able to stop them! psions are so much better than mages and there like. case in point an 8th lvl kineticist can cast a energy ball of what ever energy discriptor that they wish way more times than a wizard of the same lvl can cast fire ball. so the shear power lvl of them is dramaticly more powerfull.. A Psion's Fireball may be a little more powerful, but the Psion lacks staying power. At the end of the day, a Psion can only through 1D6 per PP, n matter what energy power he uses. If you count up all the D6 a Sorcerer can throw, the Psion is flat embarrassed. In a war, the enemy doesn't stop fighting after a few rounds: battles last hours. The Complete Mage's Reserve Feats actually make for a particularly useful warfare capacity. The Complete Arcane's Warlock comes out even better given their much longer range.
Cifer 02-20-07, 02:11 PM	psionics are way over powered compared to magic Not that one again... To sum up: -yes, it's easier for psionics to go nova than for spellcaster -yes, a single power of them (which is available to kineticists only) has a certain versatility. That's why they get 36 spells known at level 20, compared to the sorcerer's 54. -no, psionics don't scale as well as magics. At 7th level, that's a fireball taking up a level 3 slot dealing 7d6 damage vs. an energy ball taking up 7 power points dealing 7d6 damage. At 10th level, that's a fireball still taking up a level 3 slot dealing 10d6 damage vs. an energy ball which either now needs 10 pp or only deals the base 7d6. => no, psionics is not overpowered. There's an entire article about that one.
Hellcow 02-20-07, 02:35 PM	You also have to consider that Khorvaire's entire infrastructure is built around war, while the Riedrans don't seem terribly adept at it. I'd argue this point. RIEDRA is largely peaceful. However, the nation has a continual history of strife - the Adaran front, the wars with the Dromites and the Akiak, and the pursuit of the Heirs of Ohr Kaluun. You might say "Sure, but they haven't WON these wars." Adar is a special case: Khorvaire wouldn't win their either. It's got dragon defenders, powerful wizards, artifacts, and strong natural defenses. With the Dromites? The key is that the Inspired don't WANT to win. The dromites are Eurasia - they are the constant threat that lets the people say "Thank the spirits the Inspired are here to protect us." IMO, the Inspired likely COULD destroy the dromite nations if they really wanted to... but they dont want to. every adult man has some military training and most are veterans. And yet, most are still 1st-level commoners. Khorvaire's armies are largely based on peasant levies. You have your elite forces, but "every adult man" isn't a warrior... he's a farmer who may be recruited to war when the need arises. In Riedra, on the other hand, the majority of the peasants have no military experience at all. But those who DO are career soldiers brought into the profession as children and taught that the path of war is their sole purpose in life, and that death in battle will bring advancement in the next life. Their lives are dedicated both to training and to active service on the various fronts. As such, the typical soldier of the Harmonious Shield is a 2nd level warrior... and elite forces may be fighters. So you have more people READY to fight in Khorvaire, but a completely different attitude to military service in Riedra, The pervasive influence of magic in Khorvaire would also be a major advantage to the defenders. Certainly, just as the pervasive influce of psionics will give an edge to Inspired. They don't have as widespread psi, but what they have is more powerful (teleportation, big edge on communication). With all that said, I agree: a military battle between the nations would be extremely difficult for either side. Which is why the Dreaming Dark is prefering to use a subtle approach, and the Thousand Eyes is more interested in securing Sarlona.
Yakman 02-20-07, 03:41 PM	I'd argue this point. RIEDRA is largely peaceful. However, the nation has a continual history of strife - the Adaran front, the wars with the Dromites and the Akiak, and the pursuit of the Heirs of Ohr Kaluun. You might say "Sure, but they haven't WON these wars." Adar is a special case: Khorvaire wouldn't win their either. It's got dragon defenders, powerful wizards, artifacts, and strong natural defenses. With the Dromites? The key is that the Inspired don't WANT to win. The dromites are Eurasia - they are the constant threat that lets the people say "Thank the spirits the Inspired are here to protect us." IMO, the Inspired likely COULD destroy the dromite nations if they really wanted to... but they dont want to. Yet, Adar or the Ohr Kaluun could be used to much the same effect by the propagandists of the Inspired. Even if any real threat didn't exist, the all powerful spectre of "Invaders" or "Counter-Revolutionaries" could be used to mobilize the population, ala Communist Cambodia or Stalinist Russia or Orwell's 'Two Minute Hate.' As such, it would make sense to attack the real threats to the regime wihout restraint. In 1984, Eurasia/Oceania/Eastasia actually are competing for real resources--the populations and wealth of equatorial africa and asia, and the alliance system fluctuates based on who is ahead. The Inspired face no such enemies--they want, and should be able to take, the whole kaboodle (barring perhaps Adar). It just seems to me that while the Inspired are personally very powerful, they don't seem to me to effectively mobilize their might.
Wymarc 02-20-07, 04:13 PM	It seems to me that the main reason the Inspired rule Riedra is that the Riedrans want them to. The Inspired united the nations, ending a terrible war. They turned a bunch of warlords and their kingdoms into honest people who do the best for everyone. Add the brainwashing and Path of Inspiration, and there is no reason not to want the Inspired. The best way to get rid of Inspired rule would be the turning of the age followed by a takeover by people claimint to be Inspired. It may be difficult to convince the Riedrans they are Inspired, but it could be done. the best canidates would be the Chosen, who are bred for the job, or the Kalashtar, who would mix the plusses of the Path of Inspiration with freedom. (If they are still around after the turning of the age, which I think they will be, as they are bound to something on Eberron, like the Docet Shira in SoX) The major problem with an Inspired invasion would be that, imho, the Korks would not accept The Path of Inspiration. They are too nationalistic. Of corse they could be influencing the dreams of Korks now, repeating their stunt in Riedra.....
Yakman 02-20-07, 04:29 PM	The Inspired care for the needs of their subjects. I don't agree with you. The Inspired do what they think is best for them, not what is best for the people of Riedra. It is best for them that Riedrans are at peace, and so they are. It is also best for them that thousands of Riedrans die every year assaulting Adar, and so they die. That they are despots who rule over a peaceful, mildly prosperous nation does not change the fact that they are extra-planar mind-controlling molluscs bent on controlling reality.
Kreistor2 02-20-07, 05:02 PM	The Inspired do what they think is best for them, not what is best for the people of Riedra. It is best for them that Riedrans are at peace, and so they are. The Inspired must keep up the illusion that they are possessed by benevolent beings. To pepetuate that belief, they must give evidence of caring for their people. If they do not, then it is clear to the people that the Inspired are not telling the truth, and the Inspired, though powerful, cannot stand agaist the might of the realm they control.
Hellcow 02-20-07, 05:15 PM	The Inspired face no such enemies--they want, and should be able to take, the whole kaboodle (barring perhaps Adar). But they DON'T want the whole kaboodle... that's the point. The reason the Inspired don't control Syrkarn is because they don't WANT Syrkarn. They DID conquer Syrkarn - and then moved its people into central Sarlona and abandoned it. The key to understanding the Inspired is that control of land has very little meaning to them. What they want is control of PEOPLE - control of minds. Syrkarn and Tashana are both large areas with extremely low population density. What the Inspired want, they CAN take... the point is that they don't WANT Syrkarn or Tashana, and never have. Note that when they dedicated themselves to the destruction of the Akiak, it was accomplished within days. Sure, there are still a handful of Akiak refugees scattered across the world, but the Akiak nation and culture has been destroyed. If they WANTED to seize Syrkarn and turned the full force of the Harmonious Shield to it? It would be trivial. But it would require them to spread out forces, open new supply chains, and for what? Control of a handful of people, who add very little to their true goal of controlling numbers. Khorvaire is far more interesting, because of the population. Likewise THERE, bear in mind that they want to control the MINDS of the people of Khorvaire. Physical conquest is actualy very inefficient; for their purposes, it's more effective to transform from within. They don't need victory for RIEDRA... they need it for Dal Quor. Physical conquest of Khorvaire wouldn't cause the people of Khorvaire to embrace a Riedran lifestyle. The Inspired didn't conquer Riedra - they tricked the Riedrans into conquering themselves. That's what the Dreaming Dark wants to do in Khorvaire. Turning to the dromites, they serve a different role than Adar, Heirs of Ohr Kaluun, or Akiak. HoOK are disturbing, but they are few in number, divided within themselves, and don't generally threaten Riedra in a visible manner. IMO, most Riedrans don't know they are out there. Adar is a threat, but it's contained and far away from the northern territories. The dromites, however, are a GREAT lurking threat. They're UNDERGROUND. You never know where they are... they could be under you right now! Thank the spirits the Harmonious Shield is defending us! And yet... when have the dromites actually inflicted any sort of major defeat ON the Inspired? Again, my take is that the Inspired WANT the dromites around as a threat. If they wanted to erradicate them? They could have done it long ago. They've got the point. The fact that the dromites are still around but also haven't caused much damage suggests that they are effectively contained... that the Inspired are using them to serve their own needs.
Yakman 02-20-07, 05:26 PM	The dromites, however, are a GREAT lurking threat. They're UNDERGROUND. You never know where they are... they could be under you right now! Thank the spirits the Harmonious Shield is defending us! And yet... when have the dromites actually inflicted any sort of major defeat ON the Inspired? Again, my take is that the Inspired WANT the dromites around as a threat. If they wanted to eradicate them? They could have done it long ago. They've got the point. The fact that the dromites are still around but also haven't caused much damage suggests that they are effectively contained... that the Inspired are using them to serve their own needs. Unless that's what the Dromites WANT the Inspired to believe!! What if the Dromite government is using the Inspired for the same reasons! "They are ABOVEGROUND! They have SHOVELS! They could be Above you right now! They could be DIGGING as we speak!!! Thank the spirits that we are protecting our people!" The Inspired invasion of Eberron is a Dromite plot!!! :D
Hellcow 02-20-07, 05:30 PM	The Inspired do what they think is best for them, not what is best for the people of Riedra. It is best for them that Riedrans are at peace, and so they are. Precisely. However, as I read Dreaming Duck's statement, he meant that the Inspired care FOR the people of Riedra, not that they care ABOUT them. The Inspired are selfish. They feel no empathy FOR the people of Riedra... the people are, essentially, cattle. But it is in their own interests to keep the cattle content and healthy. That they are despots who rule over a peaceful, mildly prosperous nation does not change the fact that they are extra-planar mind-controlling molluscs bent on controlling reality. Of course, where you say "bent on controlling reality", I could say "desperately attemtping to preserve their entire race from complete and utter destruction." For the quori, Riedra is purely a tool for anchoring Dal Quor. They want to preserve their own civilization from doom. If we learned that Earth was going to be destroyed sometime in the next ten years, but that we could save it if we imprisoned all the monkeys in the worlld in battery farms, would we do it? You can certainly say "humans aren't monkeys"... but to a quori, they're not that different. Now, I'm not DEFENDING what the quori are doing. You're right, they've enslaved millions of people to serve their own selfish needs. But on the other hand, self-preservation is a powerful instinct - can you be certain that the people of Breland wouldn't do the same thing in their place? As Dreaming Duck says, it's not always black and white. As a human, it's your imperitive to oppose them - but as a quori, their actions aren't purely eeeeevil.
Hellcow 02-20-07, 05:31 PM	"They are ABOVEGROUND! They have SHOVELS! They could be Above you right now! They could be DIGGING as we speak!!! Thank the spirits that we are protecting our people!" Honestly? I wouldn't rule this out. I think it's entirely possible that there is some understanding between the Inspired and some dromite leaders.
Yakman 02-20-07, 05:34 PM	But what about their sharks with lasers on their heads? http://tn3-2.deviantart.com/fs12/300W/i/2006/277/5/1/Sharks_with_Lasers_by_WhiteStriker.jpg
snakebliskan 02-20-07, 07:20 PM	I don't agree with you. The Inspired do what they think is best for them, not what is best for the people of Riedra. It is best for them that Riedrans are at peace, and so they are. It is also best for them that thousands of Riedrans die every year assaulting Adar, and so they die. That they are despots who rule over a peaceful, mildly prosperous nation does not change the fact that they are extra-planar mind-controlling molluscs bent on controlling reality. LOL!!! Thats great!
JulesCARV 02-20-07, 11:30 PM	By the way -- is a level 2 fighter more likely to be considered part of an elite regiment than a level 4 warrior?
yrogerg 02-20-07, 11:45 PM	By the way -- is a level 2 fighter more likely to be considered part of an elite regiment than a level 4 warrior? I'm not Hellcow, but I'd give even odds. After all, the Redcloaks are made up predominantly of NPC-classes.
Hellcow 02-21-07, 01:38 AM	By the way -- is a level 2 fighter more likely to be considered part of an elite regiment than a level 4 warrior? If the bulk of the unit is 4th level, probably not. The point is that if the bulk of the unit are 2nd level warriors, 2nd level fighters are elite. I'd have to do some playtesting myself to give you an ideal answer, and it would also depend on whether you gave the fighter the elite array and maximum hit points at 1st level. The main point of calling out the use of fighters was to say that these soldiers stood out next to soldiers of similar level. The bulk of the soldiers of the Harmonious Shield are 2nd level warriors, making 2nd level fighters stand out. However, you can certainly assume that the HS has higher level units - it's equivalent of the Redcloaks. Whether they use PC or NPC classes is a matter of DM discretion, although it's noted that the Sleeping Sword has psionic classed characters and the Savage Legion has barbarians and rangers. As yrogerg points out, the Redcloaks of Breland are predominantly higher level NPC classed characters. High level certainly justifies elite status, providing additional skill ranks, feats, stat bonuses, etc. PC class vs NPC class is an additional level of distinction - i
Korhal IV 02-21-07, 03:17 AM	And, of course, if you DO crack it, and the Path of Inspiration falls apart - what takes its place? It seems to me that the most likely scenario would be the military seizing power and the creation of hundreds of warlord states. Is that better? Will the typical farmer be any more free toiling for a local warlord than he is working for the Inspired? I'm not out to topple the Path of Inspiration - I'm out to topple the Inspired, which is very different. Throwing out the priest, not the church. Plenty of anticlerical movements in our history have done the same. Besides which, the question of what happens to dissidents (such as those seeking the Summit Road) is very relevant to the question of keeping the Inspired around - if 1 in 100 people must suffer for the other 99 to be happy, is that a just society? Is it a desirable society? In 2003, more than 2 million Americans were behind bars, or about 1% of the population back then. Americans are largely prosperous, peaceful (domestically, violent crime rates are falling), and generally convinced that they have the best lifestyles in the world (for good reason, materially at least). So it's not unreasonable to say that in addition to the 1% that rebel against society generally, at least that many will rebel against an oppressive society, particularly one that dictates marriage, of all things to get mixed up in, occupation, home. Literally any discontent that a Riedran runs into can be laid at the feet of the Inspired.
Hellcow 02-21-07, 12:25 PM	I'm not out to topple the Path of Inspiration - I'm out to topple the Inspired, which is very different. How so? What would change if the Inspired weren't in charge, but the religion remained in place? People would still follow the path laid out; they would still aspire to BE inspired; in fact, what seems most likely to me is that in lieu of any TRUE Inspired, you'd end up with Chosen with psionic powers assuming they are Inspired. After all, we don't know if any of the gods are real, but people still believe in them. If we're now dealing with Chosen following the footsteps of the Inspired - and again, remember that those Chosen who have been Inspired in the past will still be "shadows" of the Inspired even if the Quori are no longer present - what do you expect to change? (With that said, one big thing is that without the hanbalani/quori you won't have controlled dreams, which will encourage more creative thought and dissidence - but that's a change that would take time, and in the meantime you may have mass hysteria and terror.) if 1 in 100 people must suffer for the other 99 to be happy, is that a just society? Is it a desirable society? Good point. But what if it's one in a thousand? What if it's one in TEN thousand? And by converse, is it correct for a thousand people to suffer so one person can be happy? Is THAT a desireable situation? What about the ol' "the good of the many outweighs the needs of the one or the few" line? So it's not unreasonable to say that in addition to the 1% that rebel against society generally, at least that many will rebel against an oppressive society, particularly one that dictates marriage, of all things to get mixed up in, occupation, home. I REALLY don't think that you can compare Riedra to the USA at any point in its history. In fact, I don't think you can compare it to any earthly nation, because it is quite literally a civilization that couldn't exist in our world. This is a civilization where a single religion has been engrained into every aspect of life. It is a place where your very DREAMS are used as tools of indoctrination. And when you don't have dreams of something different, how do you aspire to rise above your station? The Riedrans are taught from birth that the entire purpose of life is to follow the path laid before them, that to deviate from this is essentially damnation, and this is reinforced by both waking life and in their sleep. On top of this, they have living proof of the truth of their religion: the Inspired, who DO perform wonders, who defend their nation, who provide them with food, light, and shelter. The vast majority don't blame the Inspired for troubles, they blame the altavars who are tempting them and trying to sway them from the path. They aren't jealous of the Inspired, because they KNOW that if they follow the path, they too will BECOME Inspired. They don't see the Inspired as oppressive overlords - they see the Inspired as guardians and guides. This is a key difference between 1984 and Riedra. In 1984, daily life is very grim. You have a sense of class struggle between the party and the proles. Goods are shabby. You have a struggle for black market goods. Furthermore, it's also clear how the society of 1984 evolved from our own. But Riedra has had a thousand years to develop its traditions. You DON'T have people with memories of the Sundering, you don't have people who miss alcohol because they used to have it; instead, there's NEVER been alcohol in Riedra. You mention marriage... but imagine that in a thousand years, you've NEVER heard of anyone being married, that everyone you know has had their pairing arranged by the priests, who are after all our contact with the divine. The very idea of choosing your own mate would be bizarre... after all, how would YOU know who is destined to be your companion on the path? Beyond this, Big Brother clearly DOES help you - his teleportation network brings food to your city. And you know that if you follow the path, one day you will BE Big Brother. Riedra is a dystopia. It is a society whose people are not free. There are many comparisons one can draw between Riedra and 1984 or Brave New World. But the key is that while the Riedrans aren't free, you'd have a very hard time CONVINCING the average Riedran of this. He believes that he is free to follow the path to spiritual evolution - that YOUR freedom leads to crime, war, and damnation. And again, what I can't emphasize enough is that the Inspired control the dreams of Riedra. That alone makes Riedra unlike any civilization we've ever seen on Earth, and has a huge impact on dissidence and discontent. And furthermore, the average Riedran LIKES this: when he has "free dreams", they feel like madness. WITH ALL OF THIS SAID: The original question is "How could you change it", not "Why wouldn't you" or "What would stop you from doing it". So I'll stop arguing. I just want to emphasize that as strange and alien as it is to people of Khorvaire, Riedra doesn't feel oppressive to the Riedrans. With a few exceptions - and I'd say in the .01% to .1% range, not 1% - they don't WANT the freedoms Khorvaire possesses. They pity the people of Khorvaire, who live violent and chaotic lives with no protection from the altavars. So as you work to unseat the Inspired, remember that you're working against people shaped by a thousand years of tradition... people whose very dreams are controlled by the quori.
Yakman 02-21-07, 12:40 PM	Just to return to the original post: I know population and population density are a continued subject of concern. Personally, I do think the world is too large and the numbers a little to low, but WotC's not going to go back and change the maps at this point in time. Does this mean that you originally intended for a much smaller world, ala Krynn, or for greater populations?
Edymnion 02-21-07, 12:55 PM	Honestly, I see Riedra as being a kind of non-expansionist Borg. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. Your culture and technological distinctivness will be added to our own. Which really is an analogy that holds up, IMO. The Borg collective provides for all of the needs of the drones, it provides them with strength and unity, but at the cost of individuality and freedom. Not saying that Riedra takes things to the extreme of the Borg, but the basic idea is the same.
Cifer 02-21-07, 01:13 PM	Honestly, I see Riedra as being a kind of non-expansionist Borg. As soon as you take in the whole of the Quori, they most definitely try to be expansionist, though a lot more diplomatically and less bluntly than the cube-guys.
Yakman 02-21-07, 01:25 PM	As soon as you take in the whole of the Quori, they most definitely try to be expansionist, though a lot more diplomatically and less bluntly than the cube-guys. It's more like the invasion of the pod people.
DragoonDarkfire 02-21-07, 01:56 PM	This is interesting. The inspired want to dominate and control as many people as they want... Sound similar to a group of Aberrations we all know and love? The squid heads? Illithids? Something tells me that if a large group of Mind Flayers (and possibly a Daelkyr) were to discover that Reidra is full of psionically manipulated humans then it might be easy pickings for them. Inspired vs Daelkyr, there's a fight that would shock Reidra to it's core (especially if one of the Daelkyr managed to escape).
Yakman 02-21-07, 02:15 PM	This is interesting. The inspired want to dominate and control as many people as they want... Sound similar to a group of Aberrations we all know and love? The squid heads? Illithids? Something tells me that if a large group of Mind Flayers (and possibly a Daelkyr) were to discover that Reidra is full of psionically manipulated humans then it might be easy pickings for them. Inspired vs Daelkyr, there's a fight that would shock Reidra to it's core (especially if one of the Daelkyr managed to escape). Xoriat landing in central Sarlona should do the trick....
UnderworldLord 02-21-07, 03:43 PM	So heres the new plan: Forget the Rajah. We're going to get the gatekeepers to all start gaining levels, then we'll just open a small portal to Xoriat in Sarlona. That should be quite the Epic Adventure.
Edymnion 02-21-07, 04:50 PM	As soon as you take in the whole of the Quori, they most definitely try to be expansionist, though a lot more diplomatically and less bluntly than the cube-guys.Yeah, okay then, Borg with guile and subterfuge. Now *THAT* should scare the pants off of anybody. Borg that sneak up on you!
Cifer 02-21-07, 06:43 PM	So heres the new plan: Forget the Rajah. We're going to get the gatekeepers to all start gaining levels, then we'll just open a small portal to Xoriat in Sarlona. That should be quite the Epic Adventure. Let's just say there are reasons why throwing atom bombs is frequently considered bad manners. Small portals to Xoriat often have the tendency not to stay small...
sooperspook 02-21-07, 06:52 PM	As Dreaming Duck says, it's not always black and white. As a human, it's your imperitive to oppose them - but as a quori, their actions aren't purely eeeeevil. Actually, yes they are. Take a look at the Alignment: , line on their stat blocks. It says Evil. Their actions too, are evil as defined by the rules in D&D. They might not see it that way, and certainly Eberron does encourage that kind of moral ambiguity, however they are still unequivocally evil. Causing the deaths of thousands (if not millions) of people for your own benefit? Evil. Deliberately lying to millions of people in order to further your own agenda? Evil. Destroying a persons mind and replacing it with your own (thru mind seed)? Evil. Can a paladin smite them? Yes. Does Protection from Evil affect them? Yes. Now, some people might argue that all they are doing is trying to survive. That may be so, but that doesn't change the fact that their methods are evil. Remember that while Eberron has relaxed some of the rules regarding alignments, it hasn't eliminated them. The Purge of the Lycans by the Silver Flame may have been conducted by good people, but it was itself, evil. Wouldn't surprise me if a lot of paladins lost their abilities during that time. Eberron has a fair number of examples of good people doing evil. The Quori are Evil people, doing seemingly good things, which are in fact, evil. And that kind of twisted plot is one of the many reasons i love eberron. :D
Hellcow 02-21-07, 07:04 PM	Eberron has a fair number of examples of good people doing evil. The Quori are Evil people, doing seemingly good things, which are in fact, evil. That's all I was trying to say. The quori are very similar to Kaius - an evil, ruthless man who is nonetheless doing what he believes is best to safeguard his people. The quori are absolutely willing to exploit "lesser" beings in any way required to ensure the safety of il-Lashtavar. They will perform evil acts without hesitation. They will torture, massacre, or corrupt innocents. But nonetheless, they are driven to perform these acts by the threat of complete and utter genocide of their race - a threat even worse than Kaius has to worry about. They are taking evil actions - but what would the average human do if faced with the same dilemma? (With that said, as an aside, the quori ARE evil, in a way Kaius is not. I do believe that outsiders embody ideas, and the quori ARE nightmares. So yes, the last thing I'd say is that the quori are good - I'm simply pointing out that their actions are not, by and large, as reprehensible as those of many humans. They WOULD torture or murder without a thought if it was required... but they've created a system where, as a rule, it's NOT required. Dissidents will vanish... but between nocturnal indoctrination, a religion perfectly tailored to meet their needs, and a thousand years to shape the culture, there just aren't a lot of dissidents.) The further complication is that in order to accomplish their goals, the quori need a human population that is alive and reasonably content. Out of the daelkyr, the Lords of Dust, and the Dreaming Dark, the quori are the only ones with any interest in keeping humans alive. The daelkyr will leave the world a shell filled with horrors, while the Lords of Dust (well, many of them) will return things to the terrifying chaos of the Age of Demons. The Inspired are a threat to Khorvaire, and for that matter to Riedra... but in many ways they are the least threatening of those three. They want to subvert the world; the others essentially want to destroy it. Now, obviously the ideal situation is to have ALL of these go away... but that's another question.
Hellcow 02-21-07, 07:18 PM	...Then we'll just open a small portal to Xoriat in Sarlona. Well, a few thoughts there (though I realize you may be joking) - First, Riedra actually HAS a branch of the military specifically dedicated to countering extraplanar incursions and threats. They deal with SMALL portals - wild zones - on a regular basis. So they're actually far more prepared to deal with this sort of attack than Khorvaire. Of course, this is a two-edged sword, since the knowledge of the Edgewalkers could potentially be turned against the Quori. Second, if you expand the incursion so it's so large that the Edgewalkers can't handle it - essentially, doing the nuke thing - who are you hurting the most? It's possible the chaos this generates will help force the turn of the age. Otherwise, it's Riedran humans who will die, and in vast numbers... while the quori will simply move to different hosts or potentially just retreat to Dal Quor and wait out the conflict. It's an answer that could result in the deaths (or at least, conversion into aberrations) of millions... and you'd better have a plan for repairing the seals before they come for you! On the one hand, it could certainly put an end to the Inspired's plans in Riedra... but if it DOESN'T turn the age and destroy them, that means that they will have to focus their full attention on Khorvaire to control the surviving remnants of humanity!
sooperspook 02-21-07, 07:37 PM	Given the twisted and Machiavellian plans of many of the PC's enemies in Eberron, I wonder how long it'll be before a group of adventurers decides to be just as twisted and set the various power groups against each other? That would be an interesting game, probably high level, pc's as masterminds instead of pawns. Sending out their underlings to frame the Inspired, the Aurum, etc...
hockeyteam 02-21-07, 07:56 PM	The Inspired are a threat to Khorvaire, and for that matter to Riedra... but in many ways they are the least threatening of those three. They want to subvert the world; the others essentially want to destroy it. Now, obviously the ideal situation is to have ALL of these go away... but that's another question. The Inspired are more than a threat, the only reason I can think of that the Inspired havent gained control of Khorvaire is that the writers of the setting say so. The Inspired/Quori have plenty of 18-20th level psions, they have mastered teleportation, and can influence people's dreams. Khorvaire is filled with relatively low-level characters, low-level magic, it is not as if all of the leaders of Khorvaire are going to be permanently mind blanked, and since teleportation magic isn't really developed for wide use in Khorvaire, I would highly doubt that many of their house, palaces, business are going to block entry by teleportation. I can see no reason why the Inspired/Quori havent mind seeded everyone (of the people who count).
SSj3goblin 02-21-07, 08:00 PM	I would highly doubt that many of their house, palaces, business are going to block entry by teleportation. I can see no reason why the Inspired/Quori havent mind seeded everyone (of the people who count). It is far more easier to block teleporation than to actually teleport. You can bet most Monarch's castles and Houses main holdings are blocked from scrying, etherealness, teleportation, etc... My take on it. Otherwise, any mid level wizard/sorcerer could become the world's best thief/assassin.
UnderworldLord 02-21-07, 09:09 PM	Yes Sir, Hellcow I was indeed joking. Though I didn't know about these edgewalkers. And sadly, after all this... being an Empty Vessel PC really doesn't seem like a horrible idea anymore. You want the Quori to go in you, but it won't for some reason. They won't let you become Inspired until you fulfill some mission [SHAMELESS POKE AT DRACONIC PROPHECY]. Perhaps you're being used by the Dreaming Dark in a different way. Perhaps you were an Inspired sent out of Riedra to sow the knowledge of the Inspired way, basically like a priest going for converts. The Spanish and the French both did it in the early Americas, so why not the Quori. I'm not familiar with psionics really, but I assume an Empty Vessel Divine Mind might actually make sense in this role... but that is neither here nor there, as this is way off topic.
DragoonDarkfire 02-21-07, 09:50 PM	The Inspired are more than a threat, the only reason I can think of that the Inspired havent gained control of Khorvaire is that the writers of the setting say so. The Inspired/Quori have plenty of 18-20th level psions, they have mastered teleportation, and can influence people's dreams. Khorvaire is filled with relatively low-level characters, low-level magic, it is not as if all of the leaders of Khorvaire are going to be permanently mind blanked, and since teleportation magic isn't really developed for wide use in Khorvaire, I would highly doubt that many of their house, palaces, business are going to block entry by teleportation. I can see no reason why the Inspired/Quori havent mind seeded everyone (of the people who count). Well you need to remember the one thing about Khorvaire that makes them different from Dahakanni, from the Giants of Xendri'k and even from the most powerful extra planar forces in the entire world. The people of Khorvaire and the five nations have the Dragomarked houses. Now isn't to say that house Cannith WILL be the reason _________ group will be destroyed. It's the fact that the dragonmarked races are obviously tied in with the prophecy. It's because they're so obviously apart of the prophecy that they have some great significance with them. That's why there are no dragonmarked families or scions in Sarlona or anywhere else on the planet (save maybe Arenal which could hold a few lines of house Philara), you're essentially looking at a group of people/races CHOSEN to fulfill some great purpose. This is probably where the PC's come in. What I'm saying is that Khorvaire will most likely not be taken over so fast because they are so closely tied to destiny and the prophecy.
DragoonDarkfire 02-21-07, 09:55 PM	The further complication is that in order to accomplish their goals, the quori need a human population that is alive and reasonably content. Out of the daelkyr, the Lords of Dust, and the Dreaming Dark, the quori are the only ones with any interest in keeping humans alive. The daelkyr will leave the world a shell filled with horrors, while the Lords of Dust (well, many of them) will return things to the terrifying chaos of the Age of Demons. The Inspired are a threat to Khorvaire, and for that matter to Riedra... but in many ways they are the least threatening of those three. They want to subvert the world; the others essentially want to destroy it. But aren't the Redrians merely slaves to an extra planar force? Not directly mind you but close enough. If the inspired were to somehow re-establish a connection with Eberron and then launch a full scale Quori invasion then there's no telling what could happen. Of course since they rely on human thought energy for their power then they probably wouldn't destroy everything, but it probably wouldn't be any better then something the Lords of Dust would do.
UnderworldLord 02-21-07, 09:57 PM	I can see the dragons getting involved if the quori did launch a full scale war. Just because it'd be friggin awesome to have the dragons fighting the Quori across the planes.
Hellcow 02-21-07, 10:01 PM	I can see no reason why the Inspired/Quori havent mind seeded everyone (of the people who count). Actually, this is specifically discussed on page 65 of Secrets of Sarlona. You may not agree with the logic, but there it is. And of course, there are a few prominent leaders who are immune to mind-affecting effects... Beyond this, the high-level psions aren't as much of an issue in my mind, because honestly, I just can't see the direct conquest of Khorvaire working. Even assuming the psionic might of Riedra can overcome the industrial power of the Dragonmarked houses and the widespread magic of Khorvaire, the people of Khorvaire aren't going to blindly accept Riedran rule. The key to Riedra is that the Inspired didn't force their rule upon the people; they convinced the people that the Inspired were saviors, that the people WANTED the Inspired to rule. If the Inspired try to impose Riedran values on Khorvaire, there would be widespread insurgency, constant rebellion, and so on. In my opinion, what the Inspired are more likely to do is to repeat what they did in Sarlona, with a wrapper that's more palatable to the people of Khorvaire. Is there a movement to replace the monarchs of the Five Nations with the leaders of the Dragonmarked Houses? Well, the barons might be agents of the Dreaming Dark. Does Aurala step forward as an amazingly charismatic reuniter of Galifar? She may be serving as the host of a kalaraq quori. And so on, and so on. The Dreaming Dark doesn't need to conquer Khorvaire by force, or to make it a precise mirror of Riedra; they simply need to change the direction of society to serve their ultimate purposes.
Hellcow 02-21-07, 10:11 PM	If the inspired were to somehow re-establish a connection with Eberron and then launch a full scale Quori invasion then there's no telling what could happen. But why would they launch such an invasion, if they can accomplish their goals without one? We're used to looking at things from the human point of view. But for the quori, Dal Quor is heaven. They are embodiments of the realm, and it is a realm where reality bends to their whims; in the borderlands, they can literally have anything they can imagine. By comparison, life on Eberron is stagnant, static, and miserable. For all their glorious trappings, service as one of the Inspired is a chore for the quori. Yes, they have servants, luxury, and so on. But in Dal Quor, they could have any of these things if they wanted, just by imagining them. All the quori want is to secure the stability of their plane. To do that, they HAVE to control humanity (or so they believe). The hanbalani are working to repair the damaged axis and restore bonds between the two. But the quori don't want to live on Eberron. In Secrets of Xen'drik, the docent Shira says that the Quori simply sought salvation when they came to Xen'drik, and that it was the GIANTS who initiated the war. She may be lying, of course. But essentially, for the beings of the outer planes, Eberron is really fairly unappealing. Even the daelkyr didn't want to LIVE on Eberron; they wanted to scuplt it and move on.
hockeyteam 02-21-07, 11:15 PM	Actually, this is specifically discussed on page 65 of Secrets of Sarlona. You may not agree with the logic, but there it is. And of course, there are a few prominent leaders who are immune to mind-affecting effects... Beyond this, the high-level psions aren't as much of an issue in my mind, because honestly, I just can't see the direct conquest of Khorvaire working. Even assuming the psionic might of Riedra can overcome the industrial power of the Dragonmarked houses and the widespread magic of Khorvaire, the people of Khorvaire aren't going to blindly accept Riedran rule. The key to Riedra is that the Inspired didn't force their rule upon the people; they convinced the people that the Inspired were saviors, that the people WANTED the Inspired to rule. If the Inspired try to impose Riedran values on Khorvaire, there would be widespread insurgency, constant rebellion, and so on. In my opinion, what the Inspired are more likely to do is to repeat what they did in Sarlona, with a wrapper that's more palatable to the people of Khorvaire. Is there a movement to replace the monarchs of the Five Nations with the leaders of the Dragonmarked Houses? Well, the barons might be agents of the Dreaming Dark. Does Aurala step forward as an amazingly charismatic reuniter of Galifar? She may be serving as the host of a kalaraq quori. And so on, and so on. The Dreaming Dark doesn't need to conquer Khorvaire by force, or to make it a precise mirror of Riedra; they simply need to change the direction of society to serve their ultimate purposes. In all honesty I havent read Secrets of Sarlona yet and all I know of it I know from these boards. But I wasn't actually implying that the Inspired would use their psionic might in an actual invasion, but instead as a subtle take over as you suggested. I guess my point with this topic is 1) There is no reason why the Inspired could not do what they did on Sarlona in Khorvaire 2) If the purpose of the Quori was to enslave the greatest number of people in order to save themselves, why didnt they begin the taking over of Khorvaire 1,000 years ago, they could have at least started a religion and maybe had a theocracy by now(worked for the silver flame). 3) In general it seems that Khorvaire is at the mercy of really any power group that wants to flex their muscle, if the Dragons decide that Sharn needs to go to fulfill the prophecy, Sharn is just out of luck, if the Quori decide to take over the city council they are going to do it simply because there is no counter to them. Sure a group of pc's might thwart a plot or two, but the Quori are in it for the species, they are intelligent, they are numerous and powerful. At current there is no group that could really oppose them.
Yakman 02-22-07, 11:33 AM	1) There is no reason why the Inspired could not do what they did on Sarlona in Khorvaire Yes, there is. The power structure in post Last-War Khorvaire is vastly different than that of Sundering era Sarlona. The Inspired also have a lot more to lose now than they did then--their empire in Riedra. As such, they are going to be more conservative than they were in the past. 2) If the purpose of the Quori was to enslave the greatest number of people in order to save themselves, why didnt they begin the taking over of Khorvaire 1,000 years ago, they could have at least started a religion and maybe had a theocracy by now(worked for the silver flame). Because there are WAY more people in Riedra than in Khorvaire. And it was even more lopsided 1,000 years ago. They were busy consolidating their rule in Sarlona and didn't have the resources or the interest to bother with Khorvaire. 3) In general it seems that Khorvaire is at the mercy of really any power group that wants to flex their muscle, if the Dragons decide that Sharn needs to go to fulfill the prophecy, Sharn is just out of luck, if the Quori decide to take over the city council they are going to do it simply because there is no counter to them. Sure a group of pc's might thwart a plot or two, but the Quori are in it for the species, they are intelligent, they are numerous and powerful. At current there is no group that could really oppose them. There are plenty of groups that could, and would stop them if they got a whiff of what was going on. This is why Riedra is closed to foreigners--suppose House Phiarlann or House Thuranni dropped a few agents in the country? What then? If the Dragonmarked Houses found out about the true nature of the Riedran state, they would be able to mobilize all of Khorvaire against the Inspired. It wouldn't mean a Khoravairan invasion of Riedra, but it would mean an end to the Inspired's plans for the continent. So they move slowly, cautiously, and don't take any chances.
Hellcow 02-22-07, 03:45 PM	Yakman has covered most of the major points. Another one I'll point out is that there are a number of powerful quori who believe that control of Sarlona is sufficient to accomplish their goals... that they don't NEED Khorvaire, and that the Dreaming Dark should refrain from pushing farther. But that's a subject addressed in SoS. Likewise, remember that the Inspired of the present day reflect a thousand years of vessel eugenics. In the begining, there were fewer of this, with less direct control over their hosts, and a more limited ability to channel their power through their hosts. Likewise, Sarlona at the time was primed for war - ideal for their purposes. Of course, one interesting point... Galifar's conquest of the Five Nations wasn't too far apart from the rise of Riedra. If you want to play conspiracy theorist... what if GALIFAR was Inspired? What if the Kingdom of Galifar WAS controlled by the quori... and the Last War was started not by the Inspired, but by kalashtar telepaths or Lords of Dust who opposed the plans of the Inspired? Again, the Inspired want stagnation and stability... but there's no reason their stagnant society NEEDS to resemble Riedra. Of course, if I was to play up this plotline, I'd want Galifar to have been pressing for even greater control of the Dragonmark houses, and to take other actions to limit free thought. It's an unlikely situation... but certainly one you could explore. In any case, I'm off to Ireland for a convention, so don't expect to see me on the boards for a bit - I look forward to seeing what people have written when I get back.
allenchan 02-22-07, 04:27 PM	I keep seeing references to 1984 and A Brave New World, but Rierda strikes me as far more like what both of those are loosely based on: Plato's Kallipolis from The Republic. I'm not sure who else is familiar with his works, but in a very real sense in dnd Outsiders like the Quori are Forms, and the Inspired are Rulers, all-knowing philosopher-kings, Chosen are Auxiliaries, and the peasantry are the Moneymakers of his ideal society. Plato also goes into detail about the significance of dreams and lawless appetites, and how a control of one's dreams can create a better lifestyle. :cool:
Edymnion 02-22-07, 09:36 PM	Actually, this is specifically discussed on page 65 of Secrets of Sarlona. You may not agree with the logic, but there it is. And of course, there are a few prominent leaders who are immune to mind-affecting effects...Yup, which is why Kaius is the unsung hero of my Eberron. In my game, he knows all about the Quori, and is actively fighting them. On the outside, it just makes Karnnath look hostile and combative towards the peaceful people of Sarlona and their diplomats (which have been forcibly evicted from Karnnath). He's my main hook for if/when I ever want to get the PCs involved with fighting the Quori directly, and its my safety net for if they find out that he's a vampire.
AvonRekaes 02-23-07, 12:08 AM	I have my own take on Hellcow's suggestion that the Kingdom of Galifar was an Inspired plot. Instead of making Galifar retroactively more limiting to free will and tighter control on the Dragonmarked Houses, leave the conquest of Galifar untouched. Galifar the 1st was every bit the charismatic, heroic, progressive leader he was and he united the continent in a, while not completely perfect, exemplary society of civilization and individuality. The Dreaming Dark, however, didn't like this. The golden era of Galifar, where people were free to be individuals and dream their own dreams, was too dangerous to Dal Quor. So the Dreaming Dark fomented nationalistic pride in the provinces of the Kingdom of Galifar and stoked prejudices and rivalries. And finally, they got to Jarot. With his ever increasing nightmare-induced paranoia, he served to splinter the Five Nations, constantly worrying about threats from without and within. The Last War was to be the Sundering of Khorvaire. Except not even the Dreaming Dark could forsee the Day of Mourning, and all their plans were for naught when the sovereigns of the remaining Five Nations at the time couldn't ignore the threat of mutual distruction if they couldn't form a truce. The Treaty of Thronehold is the biggest victory against the Dreaming Dark in the current age, and no one, not even its signatories, was the wiser. Also, the Khoravar were meant to be Khorvaire's Inspired. Like the Inspired, they would have risen from the populace to guide the citizens of the warring Five Nations to prosperity and peace. Indeed, who better to lead Khorvaire than it's own Children?
Yakman 02-23-07, 11:53 AM	I have my own take on Hellcow's suggestion that the Kingdom of Galifar was an Inspired plot. Instead of making Galifar retroactively more limiting to free will and tighter control on the Dragonmarked Houses, leave the conquest of Galifar untouched. Galifar the 1st was every bit the charismatic, heroic, progressive leader he was and he united the continent in a, while not completely perfect, exemplary society of civilization and individuality. The Dreaming Dark, however, didn't like this. The golden era of Galifar, where people were free to be individuals and dream their own dreams, was too dangerous to Dal Quor. So the Dreaming Dark fomented nationalistic pride in the provinces of the Kingdom of Galifar and stoked prejudices and rivalries. And finally, they got to Jarot. With his ever increasing nightmare-induced paranoia, he served to splinter the Five Nations, constantly worrying about threats from without and within. The Last War was to be the Sundering of Khorvaire. Except not even the Dreaming Dark could forsee the Day of Mourning, and all their plans were for naught when the sovereigns of the remaining Five Nations at the time couldn't ignore the threat of mutual distruction if they couldn't form a truce. The Treaty of Thronehold is the biggest victory against the Dreaming Dark in the current age, and no one, not even its signatories, was the wiser. One problem with this: all the five nations were against splitting Galifar at the War's outset. Mishann of Cyre wanted the throne, as was her right by law. Aundair supported her claim. Thrane and Karrnath opposed her claim, but were interested in changing the laws of succession--solid diplomacy and some concessions could have averted the war with them. Breland wanted to reform Galifar's political system to be more akin to its own 'democratic' urges. It's your campaign though, and your own thesis makes for some pretty cool possibilities--especially if you consider your speculation that Thrane, Karrnath, and Breland who were "compromised" by the Dreaming Dark. This means that: a) the leadership of the Church of the Silver Flame may be subverted. Does Jaela know? What bearing did this have on the wars against the Shifters? b) is Breland's parliamentary faction the one the Dreaming Dark have compromised? or is it the royalists? how would the PCs know? c) Vol's turning of Kaius. Did she do this to break him free from his mind-control? Is Vol perhaps the strongest champion against the Inspired? d) 'megalomaniacal' Aurala is perhaps the inheritor of the true traditions of Galifar--should the PCs back her attempts to re-unify the Five Nations?
AvonRekaes 02-23-07, 03:32 PM	The nations might have been against actual warfare, but in the end it did come down to it didn't it? That kind of smacks of manipulation to me. (It would very easy to insert Dreaming Dark agents as prominent advisors to the crown. All you'd need to do is find the dreams of an established advisor and slowly subvert them so he allows himself to be possessed "for the good of the nation") The current situation I'm using is that for some reason or another (Chamber influence, Lords of Dust interference) the Five Nations weren't completely 100% manipulatable. After all it took the Sundering 300 years to forge Reidra and the Last War lasted only about 100. The original 3 scions that "defected" from tradition were more or less manipulated into fighting. However if you look, only one of those nations currently has the same ruling paradigm post-Thronehold. Thrane ousted it's own monarchy in favor of a theocracy (Maybe the quori manipulation was too much too fast and the populace responded). I don't think the Dreaming Dark would have wanted a continent united under the Silver Flame, because as one of the few religions with an undeniable divine source (the flame itself) it would be too hard to wrest control of it away from that source. Karnnath is now ruled by an uncorruptable sovereign. I don't think Vol even knows about the Inspired however. She's too focused on her own goals (I'm not even that terribly interested in her, so in my games her "big plan" culminates and must be stopped some centuries down the road so I don't have to deal with it now). So Karnnath and Kaius was a happy accident. The only dissident nation that is still ruled by a manipulatable monarchy is Breland, and that monarchy has somehow managed to run itself into the ground. (Boranel is so good, and his heirs so weak, that people are losing faith in the monarchy). This situation was more or less engineered by the Inspired to make way for government ruled by the people for the people. So in my games, yes, democracy is the latest evil plot of the Inspired. And you pretty much nailed it on the head with Aurala. She's honestly trying to unit the nations under the bannar of Galifar for the good of all. In my games she's not actively aware of the Dreaming Dark, but is being advised by a (lawful good) member of the Chamber who does.
Yakman 02-23-07, 03:41 PM	I don't think the Dreaming Dark would have wanted a continent united under the Silver Flame, because as one of the few religions with an undeniable divine source (the flame itself) it would be too hard to wrest control of it away from that source. Ah... but what if the Quori were able to play it so that they were sending out dreams claiming to be from the Silver Flame? Nonetheless, it works the other way as well--it was Thrane's monarchy that was subverted and then overthrown. What happened to the Inspired Agent who was in charge there? Karnnath is now ruled by an uncorruptable sovereign. I don't think Vol even knows about the Inspired however. She's too focused on her own goals (I'm not even that terribly interested in her, so in my games her "big plan" culminates and must be stopped some centuries down the road so I don't have to deal with it now). So Karnnath and Kaius was a happy accident.Cool. I was just thinking about the role-playing possibilities of Vol as the anti-Inspired champion. The PCs may be forced into an alliance with her, and into her debt....:plotting:
AvonRekaes 02-24-07, 02:13 AM	Well this is kind of getting really off topic, but the way I run Eberron is shades of grey + Absolute Evil AND Good, not shades of grey + Absolute Evil. If the Dreaming Dark were to try and pass off their manipulation as dream visions coming from the Silver Flame, the Flame itself (being an actual real source of divinity, unlike nebulous Sovereigns who may or may not exist) might retaliate after noticing it's worshipers being subverted. Such as a proclaimation from Jeala, who recieved the order from the actual Voice of the Flame, to ignore such false visions as supernatural evil influence (since as a worshiper of the Flame you acknowledge that there is supernatural evil out there and it must be fought). Further, knowledge that Silver Flame worshipers dreams are being subverted might have a faithful core of Silver Pyromancers studying the arcane and coming up with an answer that leads them to study the Plane of Dreams, which they believe to be the source of the false visions. (And the Dreaming Dark does NOT want a group of clerics with access to the Exorcism domain getting too nosey). So yeah, the Dreaming Dark might be a very efficient and manipulative force for Evil, but I do like giving them limits. In the time of the Sundering, the Dreaming Dark dealt with another Silver Flame theocracy, but they did it by force with war. They likely would have taken that route if the Last War continued (and will if it does), but manipulating an ACTUAL deity-level force's religion is beyond them in my games.
manneedshaircut 02-24-07, 02:58 PM	And you pretty much nailed it on the head with Aurala. She's honestly trying to unit the nations under the bannar of Galifar for the good of all. In my games she's not actively aware of the Dreaming Dark, but is being advised by a (lawful good) member of the Chamber who does. The only problem I have with this interpretation is that there has been at least one line (in 5 Nations, IIRC) where it has been stated that Aurala "dreams" of a united Galifar under her rule. I don't know about anyone else, but whenever I see the word "dreams" used in an Eberron book, I think about Dreaming Dark manipulation. Personally, I think that Aurala is the only nominal leader who has these dreams because Kaius is a Vampire, Jaela is protected by the Flame, and Boranel is too strong-willed to be reliably subverted through his dreams. However, that says nothing about Cardinal Krozen, or various members of the Brelish parliament who the DD may have subverted (or who the DD is trying to subvert). The House Deneith outpost in Sharn may be the first step toward corrupting the leaders of the Brelish nation.
AvonRekaes 02-24-07, 03:54 PM	Not everything on Dal Quor is under the power and influence of the Dreaming Dark. If you've read Keith's Dreaming Dark trilogy, specifically the Gates of Night, you might know how I got around Aurala's dreams. If you did read those books and don't know what I'm talking about... the Draconic Eidolon is a manifestation of all the dreams of dragons, a place where they can dream without have to worry about quori influence. The member of the Chamber that I have protecting Aurala is somehow channeling her dreams into the Eidolon's territory, keeping her free of influence. Sometimes when people have a dream, it's really just that. As for Boranel, its more of a manipulation of his children and the parlamentary sect. Boranel might be strong-willed, but this strength of character is mysteriously missing from his children.
yrogerg 02-24-07, 09:20 PM	Not everything on Dal Quor is under the power and influence of the Dreaming Dark. If you've read Keith's Dreaming Dark trilogy, specifically the Gates of Night, you might know how I got around Aurala's dreams. If you did read those books and don't know what I'm talking about... the Draconic Eidolon is a manifestation of all the dreams of dragons, a place where they can dream without have to worry about quori influence. The member of the Chamber that I have protecting Aurala is somehow channeling her dreams into the Eidolon's territory, keeping her free of influence. Sometimes when people have a dream, it's really just that. As for Boranel, its more of a manipulation of his children and the parlamentary sect. Boranel might be strong-willed, but this strength of character is mysteriously missing from his children. True, but the goals of the Brelish royal family and democratic agitators are mainly inward-focused at this point: if anything, events in Breland seem most likely to weaken the nation in the near future, with political infighting and corruption, rather than put Kourvaire, at large, in a suitable place for domination (I generally picture the massive corruption of Sharn's administration as a microcosm of a future, Brelish democracy). Plus, Aurala's the only one of the four monarchs who, as written, most wants to see Kourvaire under one rule again: given the DD's history in Sarlona, that seems very much like their MO at work. I wouldn't rule out the possibility of Dreaming Dark pulling the strings in both cases, but I really think their aim in Breland looks more like an effort to weaken Breland, while Aundair's already ramping up its power.
Roxlimn 03-05-07, 02:45 PM	Reidra isn't like 1984 or Brave New World. Reidra is The Matrix. Everything in Reidra, every dream, every sensation, every food particle and sunlight is engineered to make you want to stay and be happy. Assuming you're much like the majority of the population, you like this state of affairs and are deathly afraid of anything strange and unfamiliar. "There are people in the Matrix who will resist us because they like it here." Or something to that effect. The cage is invisible - it's in their minds. And once anyone gets free, he's flushed. Now, the Machines are really only after their own survival and freedoms (such as Machines think of it). The quori are after something even more basic - existence. However, I think that the virtually absolute nature of their control is similar. Would it be fair to rob people of this? I would say not. People naturally gravitate towards security. People want security. People need security. This is why insurance firms are such big business. This is why you seek tenure, a cushy government job, or a million dollars. It's all so you don't have to worry about what to eat and where to stay. Reidrans have this. They never worry about children because they know the children will be cared for, fed, and educated. They never have to babysit (unless they're naturally suited to it). They always have food, light, and shelter. They have bodyguards and even planar guardians (the Edgewalkers). There is no adoslescent angst. There is no vicious dating scene. Everyone you meet is a nice gander until you're paired up and then you have sex whenever you guys agree on it. If you fall in love with someone crazily enough to want a permanent arrangement - it can be arranged! Matchmakers in Reidra want their matches to be happy, so they accept mutual requests. I imagine that jobs are handled similarly - you're paired to a job the Inspired think you enjoy or at least tolerate. Of course, it makes for happy people, but that's exactly how the quori want the people, right? Nice, dutiful, and pacified. People have a right to be happy. The Reidrans ARE happy. They're slaves, but what of that? If they want to be slaves, is it right to deprive them of what makes them happy? Personally, I think that the quori are self-destructing. The Spirit of the Age is a nightmare, and I think that this is because of the strife and chaos that plagued Eberron since the Age of Demons. The quori believe that making every human dream the same dream over and over will stabilize their realm, but what if they're wrong? The average Reidran's life isn't a nightmare, at least from his perspective. What if this is what will ultimately turn the Age? Enough people dreaming happy dreams of security and communal self-sacrifice will usher in il-Yannah, the Great Light. Wouldn't that be so ironic? Of course, the quori could find out exactly what it is they're doing, but it is prophesied, after all. What if the hanbalani not only allowed the quori to affect the dreams of the populace but also gave it "inertia?" That given enough time, the people will keep on dreaming whatever it they've been dreaming, regardless of what the quori do? Doubly ironic would be a band of kalashtar heroes trying to sabotage all of this. It would be like a colossal comedy of errors. The quori unwittingly striving to end their own Age and the kalashtar unwittingly preventing it from happening. It's just so rich. The Quori are spreading dreams of contentment and happiness, and the kalashtar are increasingly formenting violence and strife. What a joke it would be!
The Dreaming Duck 03-05-07, 03:29 PM	Personally, I think that the quori are self-destructing... The Quori are spreading dreams of contentment and happiness, and the kalashtar are increasingly formenting violence and strife. If I were to pursue this, I'd suggest that il-Lashtavar is suicidal. The dream of the age is a nightmare... who's to say IT doesn't want to end? Its children are desperate to survive, but it simply wants to pass on and start anew... so it is deluding them, instructing them to undertake this action that will eventually shift the age and telling them it will preserve them.
Yakman 03-05-07, 04:21 PM	Would it be fair to rob people of this? I would say not. But the Riedran security is a lie. Should the Quori choose, for whatever reason, they could force the entire population of Riedra to commit suicide. They could send dreams to them convincing them to murder their children and then themselves. If that was what the quori wanted, they could do it. As such, the 'security' that the Riedrans have is predicated on the good will of evil extraplanar molluscs. Robbing them of this 'security' may be the only way to truly guarantee their lives.
The Dreaming Duck 03-05-07, 04:42 PM	Robbing them of this 'security' may be the only way to truly guarantee their lives. But how do you "guarantee their lives"? In saying that you have to oppose the quori "to save the people", the key issue to me is what happens once the quori are gone. It's easy to say that the quori could cause chaos... but they have a VERY strong incentive not too. On the other hand, once they are gone, what takes their place? If you don't have ANYTHING in mind, you're left with chaos, leading undoubtedly to civil war, famine, and human tyranny. On the other hand, if you have something in mind to replace the Quori - something that will make the people SAFER than they are now - that I'd like to hear. You say that the security of Riedra is based on the good will of extraplanar molluscs. But ultimately, would it make any difference if the Inspired were simply human? Then the safety of the Riedrans would be based on the good will of a handful of humans. Well, all of the civilizations we've ever seen in human history have been controlled by humans. Have we ever seen a civilization where the citizens have had the level of security as the citizens of Riedra? On the other hand, how many nations have we seen where the poor starve, where civil wars claim the lives of thousands, where people have no shelter, no light, no food? The quori may be evil extraplanar molluscs. But they have a solid reason - albeit a selfish one - for keeping their people happy. If you get rid of them, are you confident you can find a human replacement with the same motivation to care for the people? And are you certain that dedication will last over the generations? Because the quori will. They need happy people to preserve their own existence. They are immortal: the same quori have ruled the nation for a thousand years, and they'll still be there a thousand years from now... as opposed to human rulers whose grandchildren may be cruel, aggressive, greedy, or who knows what. To me, it's easy to say "The quori are aliens controlling people - we should save the people by destroying them!" But do you actually have any real plan for HOW you maintain their standard of life and continue to "save" them once the quori are gone? Or are you blindly dooming the people in order to save them? And again, for all I know you DO have a such a plan - but if so, that's what I want to hear. Another question: is there any nation in Eberron where people have the security you seek? The Five Nations have just been locked in a century of conflict - resulting in considerable death and destruction - because of the selfish ambition of their rulers. The Eldeen Reaches is largely anarchy; the people may not be oppressed by their leaders, but they also don't have any sort of organized leadership that provides food/shelter/whatever to people without it (let alone light!). Zilargo is essentially Riedra-as-done-by-mortals, with security paid for with the sacrifice of freedom. In Valenar, the safety of humanity is entirely based on the goodwill of warrior elves. Are any of these models actually better than what the Riedrans have?
Yakman 03-05-07, 05:23 PM	But how do you "guarantee their lives"? In saying that you have to oppose the quori "to save the people", the key issue to me is what happens once the quori are gone. It's easy to say that the quori could cause chaos... but they have a VERY strong incentive not too. On the other hand, once they are gone, what takes their place? If you don't have ANYTHING in mind, you're left with chaos, leading undoubtedly to civil war, famine, and human tyranny. True, very true. However, the population will almost certainly survive such chaos. They could not survive a quori dream broadcast telling them to jump off the nearest bridge. On the other hand, if you have something in mind to replace the Quori - something that will make the people SAFER than they are now - that I'd like to hear. They are safe now. But if the quori were to change their minds about keeping them alive, almost everyone in Riedra would be dead the next day. As such, their security is completely out of their own hands. That's not a very safe place to be. You say that the security of Riedra is based on the good will of extraplanar molluscs. But ultimately, would it make any difference if the Inspired were simply human? Then the safety of the Riedrans would be based on the good will of a handful of humans. Well, all of the civilizations we've ever seen in human history have been controlled by humans. Have we ever seen a civilization where the citizens have had the level of security as the citizens of Riedra? On the other hand, how many nations have we seen where the poor starve, where civil wars claim the lives of thousands, where people have no shelter, no light, no food? Bad governments can be overcome--they tend to collapse sooner rather than later. And yes, people suffer under them. However, people can also change them. There is no human voice in Riedra. There is no real consideration for the welfare of the people--there is only the need of the quori. And if the quori decide that they no longer need the people, then the people will die en masse, without nary a word in protest. The quori may be evil extraplanar molluscs. But they have a solid reason - albeit a selfish one - for keeping their people happy. If you get rid of them, are you confident you can find a human replacement with the same motivation to care for the people? And are you certain that dedication will last over the generations? Because the quori will. They need happy people to preserve their own existence. They are immortal: the same quori have ruled the nation for a thousand years, and they'll still be there a thousand years from now... as opposed to human rulers whose grandchildren may be cruel, aggressive, greedy, or who knows what. The quori may find another way to preserve dal quor. And that might involve killing every lesser race on eberron. Who knows? We do know that if they found such a way, then they would do it without a second thought. The quori themselves are cruel, aggressive and greedy--they control people's thoughts, force them to fight an endless war they can't possibly win, and curb their natural impulses. They do it for their own self-preservation. Yes, the people are generally secure--but that could change in a heartbeat should the quori decide it--and the population will not have any say in the matter. To me, it's easy to say "The quori are aliens controlling people - we should save the people by destroying them!" But do you actually have any real plan for HOW you maintain their standard of life and continue to "save" them once the quori are gone? Or are you blindly dooming the people in order to save them? And again, for all I know you DO have a such a plan - but if so, that's what I want to hear. You cannot preserve the system and destroy the pillar that supports it. IF you were to throw down the quori, then you would by default throw down the Riedran Empire. This will change the lifestyle of the people of Riedra. However, they will be able to choose for themselves what system will replace the old. It may be a better one, it might not be. However, the threat of mass suicide will be eliminated, and as that is the greatest threat to them, then they will be far safer than they were under 'peaceful' Inspired rule. Another question: is there any nation in Eberron where people have the security you seek? The Five Nations have just been locked in a century of conflict - resulting in considerable death and destruction - because of the selfish ambition of their rulers. The Eldeen Reaches is largely anarchy; the people may not be oppressed by their leaders, but they also don't have any sort of organized leadership that provides food/shelter/whatever to people without it (let alone light!). Zilargo is essentially Riedra-as-done-by-mortals, with security paid for with the sacrifice of freedom. In Valenar, the safety of humanity is entirely based on the goodwill of warrior elves. Are any of these models actually better than what the Riedrans have? uhmm... yeah. Riedra has been peaceful for two thousand years. Khorvaire has been wracked by turmoil and internal strife for far longer. However, four years ago--before the Mourning--there were more people in the Five Nations than there were in Riedra. i think that that speaks a lot about the success of "freedom"--more wealth, more people. I think that your characterizations of Khorvaire are misleading. Zilargo is essentially a free society--but if you intend to undermine it, they secret police will come after you. Valenar is an outlier--there are 80,000 people in the whole territory. The Eldeen Reaches ARE chaotic, however, I have the feeling that more people would prefer that than the "security" that Aundair provided. Life is a struggle there, but the people enjoy their freedom and fought long and hard for it.
The Dreaming Duck 03-05-07, 06:20 PM	Riedra has been peaceful for two thousand years. Khorvaire has been wracked by turmoil and internal strife for far longer. However, four years ago--before the Mourning--there were more people in the Five Nations than there were in Riedra. i think that that speaks a lot about the success of "freedom"--more wealth, more people. What? Are you seriously telling me that you consider population the indicator of freedom and success? Look to OUR world - are you telling me that the nations with the greatest population are the ones that are the models of happiness? If nation A has twice the population of nation B, is it automatically better? Or do you consider the typical lifespan of its citizens, the poverty rate, levels of malnourishment, and so on? In Riedra, population is CONTROLLED. The Riedrans control pairing and reproduction. They control their population... and this lets them ensure that their people are well fed, have shelter, and are generally healthy. Is it better to have a nation where the families are three times as large but have to struggle to put food on the table, where they suffer from disease and warfare, where they can't find shelter against the weather? Within Riedran society, there are no beggars. No-one goes hungry. No-one lacks for shelter. Are you truly telling me that prior to the Mourning, the same could be said for any of the Five Nations? Before you answer, please remember that Karrnath has specifically been called out as suffering from famine (offset, among other things, by food from Riedra!), that its people have been living under martial law for decades, and that they are so used to fearing their leaders instead of loving them that it's become part of their culture. This is a purely human nation. Is this BETTER than Riedra, where the people adore their leaders, where no one starves? You say that the quori COULD decide tomorrow that they want to kill everyone. But the warlords of Karrnath could decide tomorrow to kill all the peasants - or even just half of them - and raise them as undead. The undead are tireless troops requiring no support; if the Karrnathi warlords can find a way to mass-produce Karrnathi undead or control entire armies of traditional undead, this would be a powerful weapon. We know the warlords are quite comfortable using undead in battle. So, Karrnath is hardly a safe place to be. Could the peasants stop this? Should you slaughter the warlords of Karrnath to prevent this from happening? And what do you do to ensure that the nation that takes its place is better than what came before? There is no human voice in Riedra. There is no real consideration for the welfare of the people--there is only the need of the quori. And if the quori decide that they no longer need the people, then the people will die en masse, without nary a word in protest... and the population will not have any say in the matter. Let's address the last point first. You keep saying "If the quori told people to jump off a bridge, they'd do it." What? Where on earth do you get this idea? What we are told is that the quori dream broadcasts reinforce the idea that the Inspired are benevolent rulers and that the Riedran way of life is a positive thing. There's NO active control: it's purely passive reinforcement, telling them that the Inspired are protecting them and that life outside of Riedra is dangerous and chaotic. That's it. No robot programming. These are only dreams: the point is that they are reassuring and supportive of the government position. Essentially, you're watching government-sponsored TV all night. Let's imagine a Riedran has a dream saying "Kill yourself! The Inspired want you to kill yourself!" This goes against EVERYTHING the Riedran knows. He knows that the Inspired care about him. He knows that if he follows the path (in which suicide plays no part) he will be rewarded in the next life. And he also knows that the Inspired protect him against evil spirits... evil spirits that try to tempt people off the path. If the Riedran has that bad dream, will he kill himself over it? Or will he say "Clearly an altavar or kalashtar manipulated my dreams to try to lead me astray!" You're giving the Inspired far too much control. The Riedrans AREN'T mindless drones. The daily affairs of most villagers don't involve quori at all, although a village leader may be one of the Chosen who isn't actually an Inspired. You couldn't destroy Riedra by hacking into one hanbalani and broadcasting a bad dream - because the society isn't set up to be that self-destructive. Could the quori send wave after wave of "kill yourself" dreams? Certainly. At this point I'd seriously question whether this could overpower the human urge for survival, but they could. But again, the Karrnathi warlords could use armies of undead to harvest the bodies of the peasantry to create an undead army. Could the peasants stop them? It's far more likely a Karrnathi warlord would do something like this: the Karrns have been at war quite recently, many are power-hungry, and they are quite comfortable using the undead. The quori on the other hand, despite the hypothetical "They could suddenly change their minds!!!" are known to have a reason to keep their people happy and it's a reason that has held for a THOUSAND YEARS. I have to ask - have you read Secrets of Sarlona? This "the Inspired could send people a dream ordering them to kill themselves, and they'd all do it without complaint" just doesn't seem to gel with anything I see there, and in fact goes entirely against the myths of the altavars - demons that are KNOWN to tempt people, and which people are warned to be wary of. The quori may find another way to preserve dal quor. And that might involve killing every lesser race on eberron. Who knows? The same argument is true of EVERY nation in Eberron. "The Karrnathi warlords may decide that turning all peasants into undead is the key to winning the last war." "Queen Aurala may have caused the Mourning using a prototype magical weapon, and destroy all of Khorvaire when she tries to use it again." "Merrix d'Cannith may develop an eldritch machine that turns all living creatures into warforged, as he views warforged to be a superior form of life." May, may, may. Do you kill Queen Aurala, unseat the Karrnathi warlords, and destroy House Cannith? And what new force arises that is so much better? Even Riedra's stability isn't unique. Aerenal has been stable for twenty thousand years. Of course, we've seen the Undying Court destroy one family line. What if they decide to wipe out another line, or to destroy all dragonmarked houses? Could anyone stop them? Should you destroy the Undying Court to keep this from happening? What we know is that the Quori have an excellent reason to keep the people of Riedra happy - whereas by contrast, the life of a Karrnathi peasant is brutal and harsh, you live under martial law, and hey, your lord could always decide to kill you and turn you into a skeleton. Yes, the quori "might" suddenly change their mind - but that's just as likely as Aurala accidentally destroying the world with a new magical weapon. Nothing is ever certain. But what IS known is that the life of the typical Riedran farmer is more pleasant than the life of his counterpart in Karrnath. Shouldn't you go after Karrnath before seeking to destroy Riedra? I think that your characterizations of Khorvaire are misleading. While I, in turn, think that your characterizations of Riedra - as the "people would mindlessly kill themselves in a moment if ordered to do so - are extremely misleading. Zilargo is essentially a free society--but if you intend to undermine it, they secret police will come after you. Depends how you define "undermine". We've been told that there's essentially no crime in Zilargo, because the Trust eliminates the perpetrators. And we know that the "justice" of the Trust is swift and deadly - there's no trial by your peers in the land of the gnomes. Beyond this, what gives you any confidence that the Trust won't decide tomorrow to start using its power against the people? We're back to the "may". Yes, the Trust seeks to preserve order in Zilargo, but how do you know that TOMORROW, a new director won't take over and decide to kill all humans living in Zilargo? The Trust has the power to do this at a moment's notice, making this a very unsafe place to be. Shouldn't you do something about it? Meanwhile, I meantioned the Eldeen Reaches and Valenar, which are admittedly small nations. But what about Karrnath, which could be torn apart by its power-hungry warlords? What about Aundair, which could be destroyed by the ambitions of its queen? Should we bring security and order to these nations before we through the lives of millions more in disarray? And beyond that, the point about population is more fuel for the fire. Because of the ambitions of the monarchs, MILLIONS OF PEOPLE DIED IN KHORVAIRE. People "may" die in Riedra if the quori have an amazing change of heart. But people HAVE died in Khorvaire. Shouldn't adventurers be doing something to ensure that the Mourning never happens again before striking against a force that has provided peace and stability for a thousand years? Yes, there is no human voice in the government of Riedra. But when you compare Riedra to Karrnath, when you look at the Last War and the Mourning, is that such a bad thing?
The Dreaming Duck 03-05-07, 06:48 PM	Having posted the extremely long post, I wanted to apologize if I come across as overly hostile, Yakman. The key issue to me is that I don't see "Because humans are controlled by members of another species, the alien rulers must be destroyed" as a valid argument. The people of Karrnath are ruled by humans, but they live harsh lives punctuated by famine and warfare, and live under martial law. Is this somehow better than Riedra simply because the rulers are human? Beyond this, I just don't see the people of Riedra as being in nearly as much danger as you do. I don't see any realistic threat of a single "commit suicide" message working; the presentation of dream messaging isn't that controlled, and again, Riedran religion actively works against this, since people would clearly view such efforts as being the work of the altavars. Dreams can influence, but they don't control; they are subtle tools. As the quori can't physically manifest in the world, to kill the people of Riedra, they'd need to use their soldiers. Could they order the members of the Harmonious Shield to slaughter other Riedrans? Quite possibly. But again, at that point the situation is no different than Queen Aurala ordering her people to death in battle against Thrane, or the Karrns massacring the people of Shadukar... or that lingering threat that a Karrnathi warlord could decide to slaughter peasants to produce an undead army. Evil is evil. I don't argue that. But humans are just as likely to harm humans as the quori are - and in fact, by all current evidence, they're MORE likely to do it. I'm not saying you need to embrace the Riedran lifestyle. I'm not saying that I'd like to live there. But to destroy it PURELY because its governed by aliens... at that point, I think you need to unseat every ruler who wields deadly power over his people, regardless of race.
AvonRekaes 03-05-07, 10:25 PM	The problem with the Dreaming Dark is that Reidra isn't the only thing they control. DD Agents work across Khorvaire, and could be responsible for most of the death and destruction in Khorvaire (see my above posts, but it's really up to the DM on that one). As the PCs are most likely citizens of Khorvaire, they have a right to defend themselves and fight against the machinations of evil extraplanar scorpion-molluscs that are subverting their governments and corporations. Destroying the stability and piece of Reidra is an unfortunate consequence of defending themselves. The only middle ground I see as possible is one in which the Dreaming Dark only control Reidra and is forced to stop spreading it's shadowy hands into the lives of other people. They need to stop keeping Sarkaan a backwater nation. They need to give the Akiak their land back and make peace with them. They need to stop the seige of Adar. They need to stop whatever diabolical plots the DM decides that they're up to in Khorvaire (and in my games, it's one giant diabolical plot to repeat the Sundering). They might treat REIDRANS nice, but the people behind their government are guilty of far too many crimes to be left alone. Perhaps deciding that one (immense) nation's happiness is an acceptable sacrifice for the betterment of far more isn't the best of Good motives, but it's still valid.
goblin_pride 03-05-07, 11:11 PM	Hmm, reading this thread gave birth to a thought in the back of my mind. I wonder if the Infernal Bovine intended for his creation to cause questions of such heavy political, religious and philosophical nature. Could we have been directed back into thinking the thoughts that have plagued mankind's innovators since the dawn of consciousness by a man in Colorado writing material for a game? Just a thought. And now back to our regularly scheduled program......
The Dreaming Duck 03-06-07, 01:00 AM	Destroying the stability and piece of Reidra is an unfortunate consequence of defending themselves. Why and how? More specifically... The problem with the Dreaming Dark is that Reidra isn't the only thing they control. The Dreaming Dark doesn't control Riedra any more than it controls Khorvaire. The vast majority of the citizens of Riedra have never even HEARD of the Dreaming Dark. Essentially, you're saying that the United States is "controlled" by, say, the Freemasons. Maybe it is, but does that justify fighting a war with everyone else in the US because of it? This is clearly spelled out on page 57 of Secrets of Sarlona. Not only have most Riedrans never heard of the Dreaming Dark, if presented with unquivocable proof of an Inspired working for the DD, they'd attribute it to altavar possession. The Inspired lords who rule Riedra are not directly connected to the Dreaming Dark. In fact, some of them actively question its actions and its methods, as outlined on page 61 of SOS. So: is the Dreaming Dark a threat to the freedom of the people of Khorvaire? Certainly. Does this justify collapsing a nation of 14 million humans into chaos and potentially committing genocide of an entire culture of outsiders? Your call. They need to stop keeping Sarkaan a backwater nation. They need to give the Akiak their land back and make peace with them. They need to stop the seige of Adar. Wait a second. It's one thing to say that you, a presumed citizen of Khorvaire, have a right to defend your nation from the Dreaming Dark. But if the quori truly believe that the existence of their species is threatened by the kalashtar, what right do you have to challenge their right to defend themselves against the kalashtar, a force who pose a clear and present danger to the continued existence of il-Lashtavar and thus, all quori? How can you claim the moral high ground when you are advocating hostile action against them? It's OK for you to destabilize and destroy their government to defend your own, but it's not OK for them to battle a neighbor in the interests of defending the existence of their entire species? While we're at it, if we assume you're speaking for the Five Nations, when are you going to give the GOBLINS their land back? When will Thrane make reparations to the shifters whose families were slain in the purge? When will the Undying Court make reparations to the Line of Vol? When will Aundair stop its efforts to destabilize and reclaim the Eldeen Reaches? When will Darguun and Valenar turn over their land to the Cyrans? When will the humans of Q'barra leave the lizardfolk alone? Or are you blaming all of these things on the Inspired... despite the fact that the human enslavement of goblins occured thousands of years before the quori even took an interest in the world? My issue here is that people are attributing all evil to the molluscs while failing to acknowledge that humans can be just as bad - or worse. The quori are attempting to preserve their own existence. The people of Riedra are innocents whose lives are on the whole far more peaceful and stable than the people of Khorvaire. They know nothing of the Dreaming Dark. Yes, Riedra has disputes with its neighbors - just as almost every nation in Khorvaire does or has in the past century. That's politics. Saying that Khorvaire has a right to demand Riedra leave Adar alone when a) Adar poses a serious threat to the Inspired and b) the Five Nations are just a Mourning away from being back at war with one another... why are you expecting the Inspired to be more saintly than the kings and queens of Khorvaire? And before you say that the Last War was the fault of the quori, are you truly suggesting that no human ruler has been driven by greed or a lust for power? May I remind you of Malleon the Reaver? Karrn the Conqueror? If a party of goblin adventures had killed Malleon and Lhazaar and sent them packing back to Sarlona, the map of Khorvaire would look quite different today. Secrets of Sarlona suggests an entirely different option for dealing with things: Form an alliance with the Thousand Eyes against the Dreaming Dark. This won't get peace for Adar or get justice for the Akiak. But it would get security for Khorvaire and leave the Riedrans in peace... and frankly, until the people of Khorvaire have made far greater reparations to the goblins, I don't have a lot of sympathy for the Akiak. And in regards to the quori being responsible for the Last War, I will point out that dream manipulation has always been described as a subtle tool - that they can suggest ideas, but they can't force you to do something you wouldn't do of your own free will. Did they encourage Jarot's paranoia? Are they fueling the ambition of Aurala? Perhaps. But that's not the same as a domination spell. They draw out the evil in humanity - but it's ultimately human greed and ambition that makes these wars happen. The quori might have triggered the Last War, but if so, only because humans were willing to fight it. In any case, I don't argue your right to defend your nation - but I don't see an easy moral high ground in an attack that causes the Riedrans to suffer for the actions of the Dreaming Dark. The spoiler'd suggestion is one that could allow both sides to survive intact - getting the DD out of Khorvaire while allowing the Riedrans to live their lives. You may feel that the Riedran lifestyle SHOULD be destroyed - but at that point, you become the one trying to impose your values on a culture that's content with its own.
AvonRekaes 03-06-07, 10:04 AM	The Dreaming Dark doesn't control Riedra any more than it controls Khorvaire. The vast majority of the citizens of Riedra have never even HEARD of the Dreaming Dark. Essentially, you're saying that the United States is "controlled" by, say, the Freemasons. Maybe it is, but does that justify fighting a war with everyone else in the US because of it? I think you misinterpreted me. In your metaphor, I'm not saying to take out the US, I'm saying to destroy the Freemasons. Without their control, the US Government would collapse on it's own. Same holds true for Reidra without Quori control. The way Reidra is set up, the Quori control it. The dream broadcasts come from Dal Quor (if I recall correctly), and the insanely quick response time to crisis is due to time on Dal Quor being slower than on the material plane. If you destroy the Quori, Reidra will collapse under its own weight because they don't have the supernatural control that it does now. This is clearly spelled out on page 57 of Secrets of Sarlona. Not only have most Riedrans never heard of the Dreaming Dark, if presented with unquivocable proof of an Inspired working for the DD, they'd attribute it to altavar possession. Not having heard of the Quori doesn't equate to them not controling the nation. The Inspired lords who rule Riedra are not directly connected to the Dreaming Dark. The Inspired are quori-possed humans. The quori possessing them is birthed from the Darkness that Dreams and they are imminently tied to the Dreaming Dark because the stability of Reidra ties into the Dreaming Dark's plans. They might not have information about Dreaming Dark agents and plans abroad, but they are still Quori. Also, the Shadow Lines of Chosen are born, bred, and trained in Reidra, and they know the truth about the Quori and are then assinged to the Dreaming Dark. So in this sense, the Reidran government is directly aiding the Dreaming Dark by training its agents. In fact, some of them actively question its actions and its methods, as outlined on page 61 of SOS. Yes, and this is why I mentioned that there's a possibility for the threat of the Dreaming Dark to be nullified without destabalizing Reidra. So: is the Dreaming Dark a threat to the freedom of the people of Khorvaire? Certainly. Does this justify collapsing a nation of 14 million humans into chaos and potentially committing genocide of an entire culture of outsiders? Your call. Just to reiterate, I'm not talking about assassinating the leaders of the Reidran government, I'm talking about taking the fight to the Quori themselves. Once the Dreaming Dark, as an organization, is destroyed, the supernatural backing of Reidra is gone. Wait a second. It's one thing to say that you, a presumed citizen of Khorvaire, have a right to defend your nation from the Dreaming Dark. But if the quori truly believe that the existence of their species is threatened by the kalashtar, what right do you have to challenge their right to defend themselves against the kalashtar, a force who pose a clear and present danger to the continued existence of il-Lashtavar and thus, all quori? How can you claim the moral high ground when you are advocating hostile action against them? It's OK for you to destabilize and destroy their government to defend your own, but it's not OK for them to battle a neighbor in the interests of defending the existence of their entire species? As you pointed out, there are some Quori that don't agree with the Dreaming Dark's methods. There are some quori that think Reidra is enough to maintain the stability of Dal Quor. In the "changes" to Reidran policy that I said would need to happen to keep Reidran peaceful, I was assuming that these quori would be the ones in control. If they honestly believe the stability and peace of Reidra is enough to maintain the current age, then what do they care about kalashtar who believe differently? The kalashtar of Adar are mostly lightbringers, mystics who medidate and believe thats enough to win. They aren't a threat if the quori truely believe that Reidra Is Enough. The current seige of adar is as much offense as it is defense. They regularly try to invade the land of refuge. I'm not calling for them to throw their borders open and allow dissedents in. They have a right to defend themselves against kalashtar "terrorists" that try to cross the border to strike a blow to the Inspired. But as for trying to invade monataries inhabited by monks that you honestly believe aren't doing anything that could hurt you? That's gotta stop. While we're at it, if we assume you're speaking for the Five Nations, when are you going to give the GOBLINS their land back? When will Thrane make reparations to the shifters whose families were slain in the purge? When will the Undying Court make reparations to the Line of Vol? When will Aundair stop its efforts to destabilize and reclaim the Eldeen Reaches? When will Darguun and Valenar turn over their land to the Cyrans? When will the humans of Q'barra leave the lizardfolk alone? Or are you blaming all of these things on the Inspired... despite the fact that the human enslavement of goblins occured thousands of years before the quori even took an interest in the world? My issue here is that people are attributing all evil to the molluscs while failing to acknowledge that humans can be just as bad - or worse. The quori are attempting to preserve their own existence. The people of Riedra are innocents whose lives are on the whole far more peaceful and stable than the people of Khorvaire. They know nothing of the Dreaming Dark. Yes, Riedra has disputes with its neighbors - just as almost every nation in Khorvaire does or has in the past century. That's politics. Saying that Khorvaire has a right to demand Riedra leave Adar alone when a) Adar poses a serious threat to the Inspired and b) the Five Nations are just a Mourning away from being back at war with one another... Wow, its really funny that you said that. That was actually one of the plot points in a campaign I was running. A Second Mourning happened to jumpstart the war anew. The funny part is that I had Quori behind the whole thing. Heh. (Not really a point in the arguement, just thought it was a funny cooincidence that you mentioned a second Mourning.) why are you expecting the Inspired to be more saintly than the kings and queens of Khorvaire? And before you say that the Last War was the fault of the quori, are you truly suggesting that no human ruler has been driven by greed or a lust for power? May I remind you of Malleon the Reaver? Karrn the Conqueror? If a party of goblin adventures had killed Malleon and Lhazaar and sent them packing back to Sarlona, the map of Khorvaire would look quite different today. Secrets of Sarlona suggests an entirely different option for dealing with things: Form an alliance with the Thousand Eyes against the Dreaming Dark. This won't get peace for Adar or get justice for the Akiak. But it would get security for Khorvaire and leave the Riedrans in peace... and frankly, until the people of Khorvaire have made far greater reparations to the goblins, I don't have a lot of sympathy for the Akiak. And in regards to the quori being responsible for the Last War, I will point out that dream manipulation has always been described as a subtle tool - that they can suggest ideas, but they can't force you to do something you wouldn't do of your own free will. Did they encourage Jarot's paranoia? Are they fueling the ambition of Aurala? Perhaps. But that's not the same as a domination spell. They draw out the evil in humanity - but it's ultimately human greed and ambition that makes these wars happen. The quori might have triggered the Last War, but if so, only because humans were willing to fight it. I think you make a fair point, that humans and humanoids are sometimes appear more cruel than the quori. But humans and humanoids should be left to their own affairs. If a human fights a human, it was his choice. If he was evil and not brought to justice, it was a fallacy on the human justice system. If he was tempted to evil, if he was manipulated into fighting by some extraplanar force, thats an entirely different story. Humans, for better or worse, have free will and every single one of us has the capacity for good and for evil. Our personalities follow one path or the other, but we can be broken. To say that since we can be manipulated into fighting a war that we must have wanted it isn't fair. When an outside force can get inside your head, your very dreams, and mold them how it sees fit, who are you to say that you wouldn't be manipulated into a course of action you wouldn't have ever dreamed of by yourself? Temptation, manipulation, domination, alas, humans and humanoids are suspeptable to it all. Who's to say that Jarot wouldn't have been the epitome of his Galifar heritage? Who's to say that none of his separartist children would have chosen any differently without quori intervention? It's possible that nothing would have changed. Hell it's possible that the Quori had nothing to do with it in the first place. But I don't think the Quori can be given any slack because "they only made us do what we wanted to". For instance I doubt that the Chosen race would have come into being on it's own. It was purely due to Quori choosing who you loved for you. They made you fall in love, through dreams, with specific people so your great great great great grandchild would have no ability to resist having his mind raped and his brain being thought with for him. (As an aside, is it okay that Chosen are possessed because they want to be? Many victims of statutory rape don't mind either ("he's my boyfriend! We're in love!"), but it's still illegal. The Chosen are indoctrinated from birth into wanting it. They are being tricked. They think the spirits coming into them are their ancestors until they're forced against their will to think of humans as cattle. They are forced to slowly have their personalities rewritten by the alien mind they thought was benevolent.) In any case, I don't argue your right to defend your nation - but I don't see an easy moral high ground in an attack that causes the Riedrans to suffer for the actions of the Dreaming Dark. The spoiler'd suggestion is one that could allow both sides to survive intact - getting the DD out of Khorvaire while allowing the Riedrans to live their lives. You may feel that the Riedran lifestyle SHOULD be destroyed - but at that point, you become the one trying to impose your values on a culture that's content with its own. I didn't actually say I wanted it destroyed. I just said it was a likely consequence of the destruction of the Dreaming Dark. And the spoilered solution, as I mentioned above, is actually what I was talking about earlier.
Yakman 03-06-07, 11:06 AM	Having posted the extremely long post, I wanted to apologize if I come across as overly hostile, Yakman.You come across as opinionated, which is a good thing :) . The key issue to me is that I don't see "Because humans are controlled by members of another species, the alien rulers must be destroyed" as a valid argument. I think that's not the whole of the argument. The fact that the Riedrans have been blinded to the truth does not excuse the crimes of the Quori. They control people's minds. Use them to fight their wars. Tell them who to love, and how many children to have, and what to do. It's an evil system, and it should be fought. The quori have weaved their way into every impulse, every emotion, and have directed all the thought and energy of an entire nation for their own purposes--which are not horrific to those under their control but are for those outside it. The people of Karrnath are ruled by humans, but they live harsh lives punctuated by famine and warfare, and live under martial law. Is this somehow better than Riedra simply because the rulers are human? This is an unfair comparison. Karrnath is emerging from a hundred-year long war, where central authority collapsed, and where they were the victim of plagues and famines that decimated the population. It's going to suck in Karrnath--just like it would suck to live in post-Inspired Riedra. That's to be expected. I think a more fair comparison is Galifar to Riedra. Which would I rather live in? The answer is going to be Galifar every time. Beyond this, I just don't see the people of Riedra as being in nearly as much danger as you do. I don't see any realistic threat of a single "commit suicide" message working; the presentation of dream messaging isn't that controlled, and again, Riedran religion actively works against this, since people would clearly view such efforts as being the work of the altavars. Dreams can influence, but they don't control; they are subtle tools. Dreams in concert with propaganda are not subtle. Perhaps they couldn't do it in a day, but imagine if they set a time table--ten years of concerted messages, concerted worldly propaganda. They could, and would do it, if it suited their means. Remember, they control every media stimulus in Riedra--and they can get inside your head. As the quori can't physically manifest in the world, to kill the people of Riedra, they'd need to use their soldiers. Could they order the members of the Harmonious Shield to slaughter other Riedrans? Quite possibly. But again, at that point the situation is no different than Queen Aurala ordering her people to death in battle against Thrane, or the Karrns massacring the people of Shadukar... or that lingering threat that a Karrnathi warlord could decide to slaughter peasants to produce an undead army. Aurala could order her army to fight, yes. But so could the Quori. However, Aurala wouldn't order her population to murder themselves--and if she did she'd be laughed off to the loony bin. Because outside Riedra, there are groups that can fight back. That can defend their own interests. Inside Riedra, it is the will of the Inspired, and nothing else. A Karrnathi Warlord might try something like this--and he might succeed (if his necromancers didn't revolt, or the other warlords didn't attack him, or the Blood of Vol didn't slip him some poison, etc.--because remember, in Khorvaire, people can fight back!). But I'm not advocating his rule either, and I would support a crusade against him. Evil is evil. I don't argue that. But humans are just as likely to harm humans as the quori are - and in fact, by all current evidence, they're MORE likely to do it. I don't see this. After all, the Quori are attacking the free will of the Riedrans, as well as physically assaulting the people of Adar, destroying the Akiak, etc.. They do plenty of harm to people--and if they win, they take your mind and twist it so you do what they say. It's a far more insidious and horrifying victory than that of a more conventional villain--and should be fought all the more violently. And remember, the quori have failed to allow the energies of the Riedrans to apply themselves. No one in Riedra starves, true. No one begs. But most people in Khorvaire don't either. Most people work, live their lives, and do what they please. They marry who they choose, have the children they want, and live how they wish. Their success is seen in their numbers--there were more in Galifar than there are in Riedra, and this is starting from a small population of pirates and castaways. The Riedrans are lucky that the Last War and the Mourning occurred, or they would currently be facing a Galifar with perhaps as many as twenty million people in the Five Nations alone. I'm not saying you need to embrace the Riedran lifestyle. I'm not saying that I'd like to live there. But to destroy it PURELY because its governed by aliens... at that point, I think you need to unseat every ruler who wields deadly power over his people, regardless of race. If they were governed by aliens who allowed their people freedom, I wouldn't have a huge problem. But they aren't. This is why it's preferable to live in Breland than in Karrnath--you can choose your own life. Tyrants should be opposed, but we should recognize that there are degrees of tyranny. that of an apeshit Karrnathi warlord is probably the worst, but the Riedrans follow close behind, and are miles and miles beyond Aurala or Cardinal Krozen.
The Dreaming Duck 03-06-07, 11:23 AM	I think you misinterpreted me. In your metaphor, I'm not saying to take out the US, I'm saying to destroy the Freemasons. Without their control, the US Government would collapse on it's own. Right. And what I'm saying is that a better solution is to work with aspects of the US government opposed to the Freemasons who can eliminate that threat without causing the US government to collapse, which would in turn cause the suffering of millions. And the spoilered solution, as I mentioned above, is actually what I was talking about earlier... The kalashtar of Adar... aren't a threat if the quori truely believe that Reidra Is Enough. Look again. By page 61 of the Dreaming Dark, Sharadhuna doesn't think RIEDRA is sufficient to secure the safety of Dal Quor; she thinks SARLONA is. She DOES believe that the lightbringers of Adar pose a continuing threat to the security of Riedra, and that in order to stabilize things, Syrkarn, the Tundra, and Adar must be brought fully under Riedran rule. You can't have both; the Thousand Eyes are willing to help you stop the Dreaming Dark from destabilizing Khorvaire, but they have their own plans for Sarlona... plans that they feel are necessary for the survival of their species and as a result, continued stability of Riedra, since as you note, without the quori the Reidran system will collapse. The Inspired are quori-possed humans. The quori possessing them is birthed from the Darkness that Dreams and they are imminently tied to the Dreaming Dark because the stability of Reidra ties into the Dreaming Dark's plans. They might not have information about Dreaming Dark agents and plans abroad, but they are still Quori. Which is not unlike saying "You're an American - therefore you're complicit in the actions of the CIA." The issue here is the distinction between il-Lashtavar itself, which is the source of all quori, and the organization known as the Dreaming Dark, which is controlled by the Devourer of Dreams acting in the name of il-Lashtavar - but whome some quori feel is a tool used for the Devourer's personal goals. Lady Xusila is a quori. But she is the director of the Healing Hand. She is responsible for the health of millions of Riedrans. She has held this post for a thousand years, and has never been actively involved in any of the plans of the Devourer of Dreams. Yes, the Devourer holds greater authority than she does and can supercede her actions. But does she deserve to die because of the Devourer's actions? Because turning the age will destroy her... and eliminate the services she is providing to the people of Riedra. Also, the Shadow Lines of Chosen are born, bred, and trained in Reidra, and they know the truth about the Quori and are then assinged to the Dreaming Dark. So in this sense, the Reidran government is directly aiding the Dreaming Dark by training its agents. No, because the Riedran government takes no part in that training. They are groomed by the Dreaming Dark from birth, and it's clearly established that the Dreaming Dark ISN'T part of the government. Essentially, the government is allowing the Freemasons to have its own personal villages for their training centers - but government employees aren't involved in raising these young freemasons. Am I suggesting that the average quori is a lovable good person, with no loyalty to the DD? No, not at all. But the Thousand Eyes shows that there are a significant number of quori - enough to make a civil war possible - who believe that the organization of the Devourer of Dreams is NOT acting in the interests of il-Lashtavar -- and it's il-Lashtavar that has the loyalty of the quori. Yes, and this is why I mentioned that there's a possibility for the threat of the Dreaming Dark to be nullified without destabalizing Reidra. But by the book, that possibility comes at the expense of Adar and Syrkarn. You want the whole package - for the Inspired not only to leave Khorvaire alone, but to leave their neighbors alone as well, when they believe that annexing those lands is vital for their well-being. My only point is that until HUMANS stop fighting their neighbors, seizing their land, abusing their peasants, oppressing members of other races, etc, I don't see why we should expect better from the Quori. Well before the Dreaming Dark turned its eyes on Khorvaire, humanity took the land of the goblinoids and enslaved them - members of one species imposing their will on another. The humans certainly made no effort to give the goblins the quality of life that the Riedrans possess. Today the goblins have no land except what they've taken back by force, and those among the Five Nations live in poverty and squalor. Until that situation is rectified - a clear example of humanity imposing its will on another race in order to get what it wants, and without even the mitigating factor of the very survival of reality as they know it on the line - what right does humanity have to demand better behavior from the Quori? As I see it, the quori are virtual paragons next to Malleon the Reaver; at least THEY are providing food, shelter, and peace of mind for their slaves! But as for trying to invade monataries inhabited by monks that you honestly believe aren't doing anything that could hurt you? That's gotta stop. And what about Galifar conquering the Mror Holds, who only reclaimed full independence in the Last War? Were the dwarves somehow a dire threat to humanity? Again, a clear example of members of one species imposing their will over another - is somehow OK for human to oppress dwarf or goblin, but not for quori to oppress human? But humans and humanoids should be left to their own affairs. If a human fights a human, it was his choice. If he was evil and not brought to justice, it was a fallacy on the human justice system. But what when it's human vs goblin, or human vs dwarf? Or human vs. Lizardfolk, as we see in Q'barra? What when there IS no justice for those oppressed races? What difference does it really make that the quori are outsiders? They are at least providing for their conquered people far better than humanity ever was. And for that matter, what if the Quori WEREN'T outsiders? What if the Inspired were simply psionic humans? What if they were still performing all of the actions they are now, including the influencing of the people of Khorvaire? Who the actions of the Dreaming Dark be acceptable if the leaders of the Dreaming Dark were human? Personally, I just don't see the difference... at least, the only difference I see is that the quori take better care of their subjects than human tyrants do, and that the quori are a form of government more stable than any human government could be, because you won't have a madman or warmonger taking the throne a century down the line. Humans, elves, and members of other races have done things just as bad as the quori have, and with far less reason... and there are many people in Khorvaire, human and otherwise, living far worse lives than the people of Riedra. Perhaps deciding that one (immense) nation's happiness is an acceptable sacrifice for the betterment of far more... Which is a final problem. Right now, it's NOT for the betterment of "far more". Right now, THERE ARE MORE PEOPLE IN RIEDRA THAN IN THE FIVE NATIONS. Destabilizing Riedra for the benefit of Khorvaire is a purely egocentric act, not "the good of the many outweigh the needs of the few". Beyond this, there are certainly SOME people in Khorvaire who would live better lives under Inspired rule than they do in Khorvaire... who would have food and shelter that their current leaders do not provide. This isn't the Lords of Dust or the Daelkyr, who would destroy Khorvaire; the Inspired seek only to bring the same sort of stability to Khorvaire that they have to Riedra. They would destroy a WAY of life - but in the long run, they would raise the overall quality of life. Meanwhile, given that the populations are actually balanced, even if you say "The quori threw Khorvaire into civil war to accomplish their own goals", if you do the same to Riedra - collapsing their nation for the benefit of your own - how are you doing anything but perfectly mirroring the actions of the quori... and the worst of the quori at that, since as noted, their are quori who think that the actions in Khorvaire are unnecessary? It's not the good of the many - it's the good of one roughly equal-sized nation over another. If you collpase Riedra into the same chaos Galifar suffered, you're as bad as the Devourer of Dreams, ruining the lives of millions of innocents to achieve your own goals. Beyond this, let's look to Adar and the kalashtar. Sixty-seven spirits decided to determine the fate of an entire plane. We don't know how many quori there are, but given that they occupy a nigh-infinite plane and the number of Inspired out there, I'd assume we're dealing with at least thousands. How is the kalashtar act not a selfish few threatening the lives of many, while the Thousand Eyes and Dreaming Dark seek to preserve the many in need?
SSj3goblin 03-06-07, 11:34 AM	I'm with Dreaming Duck and his interpretation. Unless there was a sudden change in Riedra's internal and external politics, it is probably the neirhgbour that you dream of (no pun) as a ruler. As King Kaius that was given grain by the Riedrans during the famine of the last war. Or the Q'barrans that have a permanent battlement of Riedran soldiers to help contain the lizardfolks...
The Dreaming Duck 03-06-07, 11:52 AM	This is an unfair comparison. Karrnath is emerging from a hundred-year long war, where central authority collapsed, and where they were the victim of plagues and famines that decimated the population. But without pulling out The Five Nations, the implication to me is that Karrn culture has ALWAYS been hard. Yes, martial law is a development that has only occured in recent years, but the "leaders rule by fear, not love" element seems to be long term. And it's worth noting that Karrn the Conqueror was, well, a Karrn. Furthermore, Karrnath IS a place where plagues and famines decimated the population... the point is that in Riedra, the Inspired would prevent plagues or famines from threatening the people. I think a more fair comparison is Galifar to Riedra. Which would I rather live in? The answer is going to be Galifar every time. If you're an adventurer or a dragonmarked heir? Sure. But what if you're a goblin scratching out a bleak living in Malleon's Gate? What if you're a dwarf chafing under Karrn rule? What if you're a shifter, whose family was butchered by crusaders of the Silver Flame? For that matter, what if you're just a serf working a small plot of land for your feudal lord, hoping that the harvest provides you with enough food to feed your family? I'm not saying that Riedra is a paradise. But it DOES provide a level of security and stability that in Galifar was available only to the privileged. In Riedra, you don't choose your own path - but if you think that everyone in Galifar could choose their own path, I think you have a very rosy view of life in a feudal society. All people in Galifar WEREN'T equal. Galifar WASN'T a democracy. If you had gold, it was probably great. But if you were a serf, a goblin, a dwarf? Not so much. And again, it's members of one species oppressing another for their own benefit... with the exception that in this case, they were also oppressing their own kind. Dreams in concert with propaganda are not subtle. Perhaps they couldn't do it in a day, but imagine if they set a time table--ten years of concerted messages, concerted worldly propaganda. They could, and would do it, if it suited their means. Certainly. And if they STARTED to do this - or if there was any evidence that they have a reason to do it - I would be on your side 100%. But at the moment, all evidence is that they NEED the people to be content. And if they started doing it, I'd say "We've only got ten years! Stop them!" But they haven't. There's no evidence they will. Thus, I'm more concerned about, say, the warlords of Karrnath starting a civil war or Aurala engaging in dangerous actions - because those are both things we know ARE in motion. No one in Riedra starves, true. No one begs. But most people in Khorvaire don't either. Most people work, live their lives, and do what they please. I agree with you entirely... up to that last point. There I completely disagree. The Five Nations are feudal societies. MOST people live in the roles that have been defined for them by society. The peasant is a peasant; he can't just say "You know, I'd like to be an architect." The armies that fought in the Last War were largely made up of peasant conscripts. The goblin living in squalor in Malleon's Gate? The Cyran living in High Walls? They aren't "doing what they please"; they are doing what it takes to survive. Khorvaire clearly has a middle class who have a reasonable standard of life and freedom. But it is still a system of kings and nobles, not a democracy. It is still a system based on the backs of peasantry, and those peasants can't "do what they please". In Riedra, you don't have that free middle class - but the lives of the peasantry are far more stable and secure. You won't find Malleon's Gate, High Walls, or Fallen in Dar Jin. Their success is seen in their numbers--there were more in Galifar than there are in Riedra, and this is starting from a small population of pirates and castaways. Again, I see basing success on population as an incredibly flawed agrument. Look at the most populous nations in our world and the standard of living in those nations. China and India both have high populations... what are the lives of the lower classes like? Judging population without judging lifespan, poverty rate, disease, nutrition, and so on, is meaningless... especially when Riedra controls its population in order TO provide properly for its people. Offered the choice of living in a nation where my family is twice as large, but we're starving, have no shelter from the rain, and will live half as long? I'll take the smaller family. The Riedrans are lucky that the Last War and the Mourning occurred, or they would currently be facing a Galifar with perhaps as many as twenty million people in the Five Nations alone. So you're suggesting seven million people died in the Last War? How can you call a land where you can have that kind of devastation a "safer" place than Riedra? If they were governed by aliens who allowed their people freedom, I wouldn't have a huge problem. But they aren't. This is why it's preferable to live in Breland than in Karrnath--you can choose your own life. Again, tell it to the goblin, the dwarf, or the peasant. Even in Breland, not that there's a movement afoot to OVERTHROW THE KING - because people apparently feel that they aren't free enough. Riedra isn't perfect - but I still think it would be good to make Khorvaire into an ideal society before collapsing a stable one into chaos. But again, we're both opinionated people, and both entitled to our opinions. ;)
Yakman 03-06-07, 12:05 PM	But without pulling out The Five Nations, the implication to me is that Karrn culture has ALWAYS been hard. Yes, martial law is a development that has only occured in recent years, but the "leaders rule by fear, not love" element seems to be long term. And it's worth noting that Karrn the Conqueror was, well, a Karrn. Life is hard in rural Karrnath, yes. But the great cities are centers of industry and commerce. There is wealth and prosperity there. Again, I'm not saying Karrnath is ideal--it's not. I'd far prefer living in Breland or Aundair, where people have greater liberty and lower taxes. Furthermore, Karrnath IS a place where plagues and famines decimated the population... the point is that in Riedra, the Inspired would prevent plagues or famines from threatening the people. Just as I'm sure the Karrnathi government tried to prevent the plagues and famines that wracked the population. They failed, but it was not through arrogance or apathy. If you're an adventurer or a dragonmarked heir? Sure. But what if you're a goblin scratching out a bleak living in Malleon's Gate? What if you're a dwarf chafing under Karrn rule? What if you're a shifter, whose family was butchered by crusaders of the Silver Flame? For that matter, what if you're just a serf working a small plot of land for your feudal lord, hoping that the harvest provides you with enough food to feed your family? I'm not saying that Riedra is a paradise. But it DOES provide a level of security and stability that in Galifar was available only to the privileged. In Riedra, you don't choose your own path - but if you think that everyone in Galifar could choose their own path, I think you have a very rosy view of life in a feudal society. All people in Galifar WEREN'T equal. Galifar WASN'T a democracy. If you had gold, it was probably great. But if you were a serf, a goblin, a dwarf? Not so much. And again, it's members of one species oppressing another for their own benefit... with the exception that in this case, they were also oppressing their own kind. The ECS says, quite clearly, that 2/5ths of the population are middle class or above. That's pretty good. If there's this many people doing well, then we can assume that there's plenty of fairly well off peasants selling them food and raw materials, especially in Breland, Aundair, and Thrane. In Riedra, there's a much larger segment of people getting by with much less. Are they happy? Yes--because they are being told that they are happy. If they woke up would they be satisfied? I think not. As for being a dwarf or a Goblin in Riedra..... Certainly. And if they STARTED to do this - or if there was any evidence that they have a reason to do it - I would be on your side 100%. But at the moment, all evidence is that they NEED the people to be content. And if they started doing it, I'd say "We've only got ten years! Stop them!" But they haven't. There's no evidence they will. Thus, I'm more concerned about, say, the warlords of Karrnath starting a civil war or Aurala engaging in dangerous actions - because those are both things we know ARE in motion. My point of this example is that the danger to the Riedrans is potentially far greater than the danger to Khorvaire. Could the Last War start again? Yes. Would 9/10ths of the population survive another war (barring the Mourning part deux)? Yes. Would anyone in Riedra survive the Inspired acting in this way? No. As for opposing the Dreaming Dark, I think that the threat that they pose is far greater than that of Karrnathi warlords or Queen Aurala. After all, if they win, it's for good--there's no real hope of a comeuppance. I agree with you entirely... up to that last point. There I completely disagree. The Five Nations are feudal societies. MOST people live in the roles that have been defined for them by society. The peasant is a peasant; he can't just say "You know, I'd like to be an architect." The armies that fought in the Last War were largely made up of peasant conscripts. The goblin living in squalor in Malleon's Gate? The Cyran living in High Walls? They aren't "doing what they please"; they are doing what it takes to survive. A peasant can't just say, I wanna be an architect, no. But he can say, I want my children to be architects. And he could achieve this. Smart investments, a bit of luck, and a lot of elbow grease and it could be done. In Riedra, you don't even have the freedom to dream of something better. As for the poor in Khorvaire, it's true they are there. About 1/10 or 1/5 of the population is destitute. But a greater number are living well--better than the number in Riedra--and this is after a century long war, with all the attendant economic dislocations and tribulations. And those poor aren't institutionally poor (at least the humans and demi-humans) the way the entire population of Riedra is institutionally poor. Khorvaire clearly has a middle class who have a reasonable standard of life and freedom. But it is still a system of kings and nobles, not a democracy. It is still a system based on the backs of peasantry, and those peasants can't "do what they please". In Riedra, you don't have that free middle class - but the lives of the peasantry are far more stable and secure. You won't find Malleon's Gate, High Walls, or Fallen in Dar Jin. Is not Riedra built on the backs of the peasants? Are they not driven off to war without a say? Are they not forced to marry people they wouldn't want to? To do jobs that they wouldn't want to? The tyranny in Riedra is far greater than that in Khorvaire--and there's no outlet. In Khorvaire, life sucks for a large number of people, but for a far greater number, life is better than for the Riedran masses. Again, I see basing success on population as an incredibly flawed agrument. Look at the most populous nations in our world and the standard of living in those nations. China and India both have high populations... what are the lives of the lower classes like? Judging population without judging lifespan, poverty rate, disease, nutrition, and so on, is meaningless... especially when Riedra controls its population in order TO provide properly for its people. Offered the choice of living in a nation where my family is twice as large, but we're starving, have no shelter from the rain, and will live half as long? I'll take the smaller family. For centuries, it was better to be born in India or China than in Europe. Much better. Greater freedom, better technology, better crop yields. This changed dramatically in the late 18th century. But now, life expectancies and quality of life is improving dramatically in India and China. They have greater populations because it's easier to farm there and easier to stay alive there and life was generally better there compared to Europe since pretty much the dawn of time until the Industrial Revolution. We can look at the stasis in Riedra and see that the Inspired have chosen to 'lock' the country into a moment in time. We can look at the growth in Khorvaire and see that people are optimistic about the future, having large families--and then feeding them--and then clearing land and starting new settlements, new industries, etc.. Life is not horrible in Khorvaire--they've had amazing growth up until the Last War, despite a host of obstacles. And again, only a tiny minority are starving. So you're suggesting seven million people died in the Last War? How can you call a land where you can have that kind of devastation a "safer" place than Riedra? If you combine the Mourning, the War, and the decline in birth-rates and population growth, I think that it's reasonable to assume that seven million more people could be alive had the Last War not occured. I've not called Khorvaire 'safer'. I've called it better. Riedra is real safe. But it's like driving a car that goes 25 mph. It'll get you there, but it'll suck. Again, tell it to the goblin, the dwarf, or the peasant. Even in Breland, not that there's a movement afoot to OVERTHROW THE KING - because people apparently feel that they aren't free enough. Riedra isn't perfect - but I still think it would be good to make Khorvaire into an ideal society before collapsing a stable one into chaos. Only Riedra's foreign policy is to prevent Khorvaire from becoming an 'ideal society' and instead to bend it to the will of the Dreaming Dark. As such, the greatest threat to social justice in Khorvaire is not the Karrnathi, but the Quori, who seeks stasis and homogenity over liberty and growth. I think that you are also misrepresenting the anti-monarchal movement in Breland. It's not so much freedom for the people, as freedom for the aristocracy. Magna Charta sort of stuff. But again, we're both opinionated people, and both entitled to our opinions. ;)Yes we are. And better for it.
The Dreaming Duck 03-06-07, 03:20 PM	The issue here, Yakman, is that we have completely different views of the life of the common citizen of Khorvaire. You appear to think that life in Khorvaire is pretty rosy; I think that it's no bed of roses. Likewise, you seem to think that life in Riedra is miserable, while I see it as being actually fairly pleasant on a day to day basis. The ECS says, quite clearly, that 2/5ths of the population are middle class or above. Fair enough. And I agree that for those 2/5ths, life is very good. It's full of opportunity. They have what they need to get by and to prosper. But that leaves 3/5th of the population below this line - and I have trouble believing that in a fuedal society, only 1/10th or 1/15th of these people live in poverty. You talk about "well-off peasants"; in my opinion, that's an oxymoron. The typical peasant doesn't own his own land; he works the land owned by his lord, keeping a share of the harvest in order to feed his family. If he's lucky, he does. But consider: We know life in Karrnath is harsh. We know that they have suffered from famine and plague. Certainly, war played a role in this. But the people had no say in that war. If the warlords seize power from Kaius and go to war again, they'll have no say in that. The threat of war and the threat of starvation are constantly hanging over the head of a Karrn peasant. His culture is based around the idea that it's better for a leader to rule through fear than adoration. And if he's a serf, he works the land of that fearful lord. He can't just invest money to get his son to be an architect; he HAS no money. He's lucky just to get food. Karrnath's one example. But let's look to Breland and the lower levels of Sharn. Malleon's Gate. High Walls. Fallen. Lower Dura overall. From what we've seen, life in these areas is a bitter struggle just to survive. Are you suggesting that these people are just lazy or stupid - that if they just tried harder, they could get out of Malleon's Gate and all get decent jobs? Beyond this, look to Valenar. The ECS explicitly states that the peasant population of Valenar accepts the elven overlords because the change has made absolutely no difference in their lives: all that's changed is who takes the taxes. This is the perfect example. Peasants of Cyre, peasants of Valenar; it makes no difference whatsoever. Their lives are lives of toil. And they DON'T have the Sturdy Wall ensuring that they have good shelter, the Bountiful Horn making sure they have enough to eat, the Healing Hand providing medical care and containing epidemics. You talk about the Riedrans living in poverty, and technically, this is true; they have no money at all. But what do they need money for? They have good shelter, plentiful food, well-made clothes, the tools they need to perform their work, and even healthcare. Meanwhile, the serf of Breland has whatever his lord allows him to keep, and hopefully that's enough to live on. The Inspired have a clear, vested interest in keeping the people of Riedra healthy and content. The rulers of the Five Nations, on the other hand, have and do put personal ambition ahead of the good of their subjects... which shows in things like the revolt of Aundair and, at the end of the day, the Mourning. A Riedran has shelter, food, and a challenging task that he is well suited to perform, and which he believes that if he performs it well, will bring him salvation. How is this any worse than the Karrn peasant who tills the land of a cruel nobleman, has to worry when the next famine will strike, and lives in constant fear that he will be conscripted or possibly even "harvested" as undead? In Riedra, there's a much larger segment of people getting by with much less. Really? To reiterate, The villagers of Riedra always have enough food. Food is produced under the auspices of the Bountiful Horn and distributed via teleportation where necessary. They have strong shelters, maintained by the Sturdy Wall. They have lights, which not every village in Khorvaire has. The Healing Hand provides medical care and prevents the outbreak of disease... a service House Jorasco charges dearly for. In Riedra, 4.99999999/5ths of the people are lower class. But the lower class of Riedra lives a far, far better life than the lower classes of Khorvaire. They never need to worry about food, shelter, or disease. Their career is choosen for them, but it is the career they are most likely to prosper at - as opposed to the peasant serf of Khorvaire, who's career is ALSO chosen for him, but simply because it's the only option available to him. As for being a dwarf or a Goblin in Riedra..... Touche on the dwarf. However, goblins never existed in Riedra. Ogres, on the other hand, are quite content there - and have a better standard of living than the typical goblin in the Five Nations. Furthermore, the ogres still occupy their homeland and live in ogre communities. The Inspired NEVER took their land from them, for all that they converted them to the Path of Inspiration. Again, compared to the actions of Malleon the Reaver, I'm not seeing the moral high ground of humanity. And again, I'm not saying the quori are saints; clearly they aren't. They are self-serving tyrants. But many HUMAN rulers are self-serving tyrants, and the quori at least take far better care of their subjects than most humans do. Could the Last War start again? Yes. Would 9/10ths of the population survive another war (barring the Mourning part deux)? Yes. I'm confused. The current population of the Five Nations is around 12,000,000. You're suggesting that without the war, it would have been 20,000,000 - so, a lost of around 4/10ths of the population. Now you're suggesting that 9/10ths of the population would survive the next war. How's that work? Besides which, what are your grounds for dismissing a Mourning II (electric bugaloo)? It seems to me that the odds are EXTREMELY high that the Mourning was caused by the war, whether it was a prototype weapon gone bad or simply the result of too much magic at work. The sole reason the war stopped is because people were afraid the Mourning WOULD happen again. What happens when Breland is next to go? Would anyone in Riedra survive the Inspired acting in this way? No. Except, as you said, such a plan would take ten years to implement, during which time the kalashtar would undoubtedly learn of it and potentially do more that sit around meditating. Again, you're positing an enormous disaster that not only has no precedent, actively opposes the precedent set (that the quori NEED humanity to survive). Could it happen? Sure, anything could happen. But Aurala could decide tomorrow to ally with the Lords of Dust in the belief that she can become immortal and devote all of the resources of Aundair to this task. The Quori serve their own interests, but it's clearly stated that their interests require healthy humans - saying "Sure, well, that could change" seems extremely weak as a basis for unquestionably threatening the lives of fourteen million people. Again, anything could change. But the quori have a stronger investment in keeping their people alive and happy that the rulers of any other nation in Khorvaire - because they have immortality and the existence of their entire world on the line. Is not Riedra built on the backs of the peasants? Are they not driven off to war without a say? ...To do jobs that they wouldn't want to? As I've said before, the people of KHORVAIRE are driven off to war without a say. The difference is that the soldier of Riedran is a career soldier, not a peasant conscript handed a pike and sent out as cannon fodder. The soldiers of the Harmonious Shield are well trained and well equipped. Page 55-56 outlines the training and gear of the Harmonious Shield; in the Five Nations, on the other hand, you're dealing with first level commoners with spears. And back to the jobs, again, as I see it you're looking at the lucky 2/5ths, and !'m seeing the lives of the bottom 1-2/5ths. Again, in a feudal society, your lot is just as likely to be chosen for you as it is in Riedra... the difference is that you don't have the Guiding Path trying to determine what you're actually good at, and providing you with the tools you need to perform it. You can't become a soldier if you'd suck at it - but at the same time, this means the soldiers are actually qualified for their job. In Khorvaire, life sucks for a large number of people, but for a far greater number, life is better than for the Riedran masses. Again, this is, in my opinion, applying the cultural values of Khorvaire to a situation. The Riedran has everything he needs to prosper in life. He has a better chance of living a long and healthy life that a serf in Karrnath. He believes that devotion to his work will be rewarded. He adores his rulers and believes that they provide him with security. He doesn't have to fear war or crime (remember, excessive banditry was one of the things that drove the Eldeen Reaches to secede). He feels a close bond with his own community. He believes that honesty is a core value of life and that he can rely on the honesty of those around him. He doesn't have his own dreams, but he doesn't WANT his own dreams; as the book notes, Riedrans find ANY unstuctured dreams to be terrifying. What does it mean for "life to be better"? The Riedran is happy. Perhaps he's only happy because he's told to be happy, but he is happy. He has security, shelter, food, and a clear purpose in life. All he lacks is the ability to choose his own path, and he doesn't want it. The Riedrans pity the people of Khorvaire, seeing them as living chaotic, undefined lives filled with crime, war, dishonesty, and uncertainty. YOU may not want the life of a Riedran. YOU may value your right to choose your own path. But do you have the right to impose your cultural values on the Riedran, to take away his security when he doesn't WANT your help? Life is not horrible in Khorvaire... Again, tell that to the people of Malleon's Gate or Shadukar. But more important, life isn't horrible in Riedra. Could this change? Perhaps. But it could EASILY change in Khorvaire. We've been told over and over again that Khorvaire is poised on the brink of another war, that there's bitter tensions between the nations, that there's bigotry and hatred within the nations themselves (Silver Torch? Emerald Claw?). Riedra is a nation without crime. Is Khorvaire? It is a nation where everyone in a community works closely together and feels a close bond. Is this true across the Five Nations? It's a place where honesty is taken for granted. True in Khorvaire? It's a style of life that is completely DIFFERENT from Khorvaire, but it's not horrible. Your greatest claim against it is that if the quori changed their minds, it could change - but far from any evidence that this could happen, everything in canon suggests that the quori NEED the people - far more than a Karrn warlord needs his subjects. Riedra is real safe. But it's like driving a car that goes 25 mph. It'll get you there, but it'll suck. From your point of view, because you LIKE driving 55 MPH. The Riedran considers 55 MPH a terrifying speed and thoroughly unnecessary. He's not in a hurry to get where he's going, and he's happy to play it safe. In his opinion, the Inspired would be doing you a favor if they conquered YOU, because your culture has a dangerous obsession with going fast that could destroy you... and recent driving records show that hundreds of thosands of your countrymen just died in car accidents. Again, it's all a matter of perspective. Does the Riedran have the right to conquer you because your culture has caused you to develop different values? You may say it's the work of the molluscs, but ALL people are children of their cultures. Riedra couldn't exist as it stands without coordination from Dal Quor. But the basic system of values imposed by the Path of Inspiration - career and bonding chosen by the Guiding Path, dedication to a solitary task, institutional honesty and so on - that could certainly continue without the Inspired, especially if the Chosen continued to manifest psionic powers on their own. People would likely end up believing that the psionic Chosen WERE Inspired. The issue is the immediate loss of coordination that would result once the Voice and the networking in Dal Quor was lost. But I truly don't see the people of Riedra "waking up" and suddenly saying "Hurray! We can be just like Khorvaire now!" Only Riedra's foreign policy is to prevent Khorvaire from becoming an 'ideal society' and instead to bend it to the will of the Dreaming Dark... As such, the greatest threat to social justice in Khorvaire is not the Karrnathi, but the Quori. To begin with, the goals of the Dreaming Dark aren't the goals of Riedra. The Riedrans have no desire to overthrow Khorvaire. In fact, as noted in the previous posts, there are quori among the Inspired who actively oppose the Dreaming Dark's actions in Khorvaire. Beyond this, "the greatest threat to social justice... is the quori"? How does this explain a thousand years of dwarven subjugation? How does this explain the status of the goblins? The quori had absolutely nothing to do with the human treatment of the goblins; that was humanity alone. We're on opposite sides of the fence, and that's OK. I'm actually going away for a while, so I'll let my argument rest here. To me, though, it's all in how you view the life of the peasant of Khorvaire. I look at the description of the formerly Cyran Valenar serfs, and say "Sounds like they are utterly used to having no control over their lives whatsoever." I look at the descriptions of the misery in Lower Dura, the famines in Karrnath, and I don't see a Khorvaire that's a glowing model of life on all levels. I see a land torn apart by war, crime, and bigotry. I look to Riedra and ssee a land united, a land without war or crime, where everyone has what they need to survive. Could that change? perhaps. But again, there's no reason for it to change, and every reason for it not to. Would I want to live in that land? Honestly? I'd rather live there than in Lower Dura, where every night is a struggle for survival. It's easy for us to see the worst in Riedra, because it's so alien to our way of life. But imagine this: What if the Riedrans are correct? What if the Inspired AREN'T alien moluscs? What if they ARE the spirits of the wisest Riedrans, refined and raised to guide the people? A citizen of Riedra can't tell the difference. If you were actually in Riedra, YOU wouldn't be able to tell the difference. The only reason you can is because a book has told you "The Inspired are actually evil molluscs." If you can't tell the difference on a day by day basis, if the system has lasted a thousand years with no signs of changing, if the people lead happy lives (and remember, they ARE appy, even if you feel that YOU wouldn't be happy in their place) - why does it make a difference that the spirits are actually molluscs? The only reason I can see is your fear that the quori could suddenly change their minds... and again, that's a fear that contradicts everything established in canon, including Races of Eberron and Secrets of Sarlona. As it stands, the quori need humanity - and they have a vested interest in keeping their subjects healthy and content. Anyhow, thanks for the discussion - Dreaming Duck signing off. :)
Roxlimn 03-06-07, 03:38 PM	Freedom is overrated. Most people only want to have "freedom" when it's convenient and meets their wants and desires. When it's difficult or when it's time to pony up the dough, most people would rather have someone else decide for them. That way, they can blame the other person or louse about how they had no choice in the matter. It's hard to be sore about your life when you know you ruined it yourself. I have the freedom to date people and marry whoever I choose. Great, right? Imagine the dating scene, particularly for those pimpled awkward youngsters who don't have a clue. Or for those over 30-somethings who are too tired working their butts off to look like Brad Pitt or Angelina Jolie. Is all this "freedom" working to their advantage? Assuredly not. Dating services, blind dates, matchmakers - all essentially methods of passing the buck off to someone else. Does the Reidran govenrment force you into a pairing you don't like? No. They respect mutual requests, and if they do that much, they probably won't put you up with someone they know you won't like. After all, they WANT YOU TO BE HAPPY, and you can't be happy if you're miserable. While they veto certain pairings, that happens too in modern "free" life. People need to move away for jobs, have unfortunate recessive gene-pairings, or belong to different social classes. I imagine similar circumstances also happen in Khorvaire. If you're Deneith dragonmarked, you can't marry an Orien dragonmarked. If you request and go after a pairing in Reidra that's prohibited, they'll probably just relocate you and guide you to another choice. It may not be your one true love, but you'll live. In Khorvaire, if you're Deneith dragonmarked and you shack up with a dragonmarked from any other family, they'll excoriate you, or hunt you down and execute you. So much for "freedom." Are you able to do what you like in Khorvaire? Can you be an architect, for instance, or can your children be architects? Maybe. If you work hard and get lucky. Serfs are serfs because they're not particularly very able people. If they were any better, they wouldn't be serfs. By and large, Khorvaire is defined as a feudal society, meaning that there isn't a great deal of social movement going on, and your freedoms are rights are very limited. Architect is a rather chancy and time-consuming profession. You would need a lot of education just to get a chance. Your father or mother would need to produce much more than just to get by in order to sponsor you. It's possible if you're an only child, but not at all a sure thing, and only through much hardships on the part of many people. If you're more than one kid, forget it. The ECS says, quite clearly, that 2/5ths of the population are middle class or above. That's pretty good. If there's this many people doing well, then we can assume that there's plenty of fairly well off peasants selling them food and raw materials, especially in Breland, Aundair, and Thrane. Peasants don't usually sell anything. They're peasants! By and large, they have nothing or next to nothing. What they produce is usually owned by their lord, and it is he who does the selling - partly to the very peasants who work the land. Peasant life in Khorvaire is anything but secure and rather far from anything that can be described as "well off." If you're "well off," then you're at least middle class or better. In Riedra, there's a much larger segment of people getting by with much less. Are they happy? Yes--because they are being told that they are happy. If they woke up would they be satisfied? I think not. I'd like to clarify, Yakman, that while I'm using your words, the reply is not to you particularly. I'm just picking out sentiments which I think a lot of other people would share. Do Reidrans get by with "much less" than what Khorvairians do? The peasants? Probably not. Reidrans get food, shelter, direction, protection, pairings, light - there's a lot of services they get for free. Peasants in Khorvaire don't get free food. Sometimes they starve. Sometimes they starve to death. This wouldn't normally happen in Reidra. That means that most Reidrans have more than most Khorvairians. Reidra IS noted to be a rather prosperous nation, so the baseline resources to go around is that much more. I would assume that this is from efficiency. Do most Reidrans get by with less than middle class Khorvairians? I would say yes on that count, but their lives are still more secure and more stable. You can't fall from a catastrophic misfortune into destitution in Reidra. Just as I'm sure the Karrnathi government tried to prevent the plagues and famines that wracked the population. They failed, but it was not through arrogance or apathy. While King Kaius is concerned about the famine and tries to see to the needs of his people, this does not strike me as a very Karrn way of thinking. No one knows exactly why and where the plagues come from, so there is no true effort of prevention that can take place. Famines should not occur normally in Khorvaire, because of the Raincaller's Guild, but it may in Karrn from the winters. I imagine that Karrnath was beset by famines partially because it was customary in the days of Galifar to specialize food production elsewhere. Would it be because of arrogance? It depends on what is meant by that. Much of the strife and bloodshed of the last hundreds years might well have been avoided had the Kings and Queens of Khorvaire got it into their heads that the welfare of Khorvaire's people was more important that who was calling the shots. They valued their own worth and power more than the welfare of their people. That could be called arrogance, and certainly, the Karrnathi belief that they should naturally lead Galifar strikes many as quite arrogant. My point of this example is that the danger to the Riedrans is potentially far greater than the danger to Khorvaire. Could the Last War start again? Yes. Would 9/10ths of the population survive another war (barring the Mourning part deux)? Yes. Would anyone in Riedra survive the Inspired acting in this way? No. No one would survive also if the Dragonmarked Houses took it into their heads to induce a magical cataclysm. The "danger" to the Reidrans is proportional to the control and power the quori have. I don't believe it is within their power to override the self-preservation instincts of 13 million people regardless of how long it took. It'd be much faster to command the Harmonious Shield to slaughter the population. The central objection here isn't really to the quori but to how much power they have over the people they rule. That having this much power is "Evil." I don't believe that power per se is evil, and I also have the impression that the quori are beyond corruption as rulers of Reidra, because they're just so alien (and because rulership of Reidra is largely an unpleasant chore to them). "Danger" is proportional to power. A group of epic level adventurers would have as much power to decimate Khorvaire as these quori do. Is it proper to seek the death of all such people, then? We can look at the growth in Khorvaire and see that people are optimistic about the future, having large families--and then feeding them--and then clearing land and starting new settlements, new industries, etc.. Life is not horrible in Khorvaire--they've had amazing growth up until the Last War, despite a host of obstacles. And again, only a tiny minority are starving. The people of Khorvaire are by and large despondent and see only a bleak future of war and death. This is mentioned explicitly in the ECS. That is why the current time is a time for heroes. The unscrupulous do not delay and the murderous have no patience - they know that their lives could end at any moment with a call to war. People also don't have large families on purpose - it wouldn't make sense to burden your wife with lots of children if you expect to be drafted off to war any day. Only Riedra's foreign policy is to prevent Khorvaire from becoming an 'ideal society' and instead to bend it to the will of the Dreaming Dark. As such, the greatest threat to social justice in Khorvaire is not the Karrnathi, but the Quori, who seeks stasis and homogenity over liberty and growth. Reidra is not the Dreaming Dark. Reidra's current foreign policy is largely to firmly shut the doors. Beyond this, let's look to Adar and the kalashtar. Sixty-seven spirits decided to determine the fate of an entire plane. We don't know how many quori there are, but given that they occupy a nigh-infinite plane and the number of Inspired out there, I'd assume we're dealing with at least thousands. How is the kalashtar act not a selfish few threatening the lives of many, while the Thousand Eyes and Dreaming Dark seek to preserve the many in need? I don't believe that the kalashtar seek to kill their quori bretheren. They only believe that the turning of the Age is natural and inevitable. You might say that they're like the Children of Winter in a way. As far as I can tell, they didn't decide on the fate of their plane so much as they simply accepted it and thus think it unwise and unscrupulous to mess with other people's minds for something that isn't going to make a difference anyway. Would I like to live in Reidra? For the most part, lots of people are living in Reidra-like somnolence right now. We only know what is told us, and if you've been told all your life that the news is infallible, that the history books are always right, and that the X-nation way is the right way to live, then that's how you will want to think. Heck, I've been challenged on the virtues of critical thinking here on these very boards! I find it incredible that some people can believe that critical thought is a BAD THING. That's practically like a Reidran who thinks that having free dreams is bad. So, is it all that bad? Is this living with propaganda all that bad? I don't believe so. I've met a couple Chinese who buy the party line hook, line, and sinker. There's not a whole of them outside the mainland, but they don't seem so very worse off. I probably wouldn't want to live in Reidra, but it's got less to do with the power of the authorities there and more to do with my preferring to keeping my thoughts largely to myself.
Roxlimn 03-06-07, 04:01 PM	If you can't tell the difference on a day by day basis, if the system has lasted a thousand years with no signs of changing, if the people lead happy lives (and remember, they ARE appy, even if you feel that YOU wouldn't be happy in their place) - why does it make a difference that the spirits are actually molluscs? This I find very interesting. The quori have a vested interest to see that the people of Reidra are safe, happy, and content. As far as most Reidrans can tell, the Path of Inspiration is 100% the genuine article. What if the Age turns and it turns out to be true? Referring to DD's and my interesting speculation, what if il-Lashtavar is suicidal? What if it's seeking to end its misery by egging the quori to make happy dreams for everyone? Then the Age turns, and Reidra undergoes a major power shift. il-Yannah is in power now, and it takes up where il-Lashtavar left off. Turns out Reidra is invisible to the Prophecy and had no Dragonmarks because the quori, through their actions have "removed" Reidra from the cycle of souls. Much as the Silver Flame faithful merge with the Silver Flame, the people of Reidra under il-Yannah DO reincarnate into better and better situations, as according to their virtuous actions. It would be a major upset in Eberron cosmology, but as far as the average Reidran is concerned, nothing has changed. As far as his daily activities are concerned, it's all the same! Thus living under a LG entity who cares for you out of altruism and virtue turns out to be much the same as living under a LE entity who cares for your welfare because his very life depends on it.