Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nived 10-17-07, 01:16 AM	In the past we've discussed the rights of humanoids, monstrous humanoids, giants, native outsiders (like tieflings) and what not within the boarders of the 12 Thronehold Nations. Sharn City of Towers clarifies this a bit more, saying that citizens are protected by the Code of Galifar. What I'm wondering about is some of the more wild things, utterly non-humanoid. Magical Beasts and the like who are intelligent, and can speak. On the one hand we have truly savage 'monsters' like the Displacer Beasts, capable speech but surely not citizens, even treated like savage beasts to be killed and captured in three separate works of Eberron Fiction (not canon I know but still it offers insight) Eaten by Daine in Stormreach in The Shattered Land, hunted by Geth in The Binding Stone, and captured on an airship in Tales of the Last War. But on the other hand there are things like Manticore and Blink Dogs. Why I bring them up is that we know that House Kundarak deals with Manticore to protect some of their vaults in the Mror Holds, and the halflings of the Talenta Plains look upon blink dogs with respect. Still I find it hard to believe that any would be actual tax paying citizens of the nations. Still we have an example of a Giant Owl in Sharn: City of Towers who runs his own shop... still this could truly be an exception rather than the rule. WHY AM I ASKING SUCH A QUESTION!? A sick little idea I had. My group is made up of heavily pulp inspired Big Game Hunters... and I thought up a campaign idea to earn them the titles of the best hunters in the land. Heavily inspired by The Cannonball Run and Rat Race. Some rather rich people (including, but not exclusively) The Aurum and Imre Levalle have decided to sponcer a hunt of some great mythic beasts across Khorvaire, obstensively for the betting on the teams of hunters... Half the action will be hunting down various dangerous creatures and the natural obstacles in the way... the other half is dealing with the competition. Like those movies I mentioned sabotage, outright cheating, assassination attempts (from rich patrons that have bet against the PCs) and the like. But what to hunt? The idea came to me while flipping through the ECS... the list was ready made for me... the Heraldic creatures of the Dragonmarked Houses. The Blink Dog, The Displacer Beast, the Cockatrice, the Hippogriff, the Griffon, the Unicorn, the Hydra, the Manticore, the Gorgon, the Basilisk, the Dragonne, the Chimera, and the Kraken... heck of a list. Sure CRs are all over the map... especially the Kraken. I'm getting off my point... I do wonder about the legality of such a hunt. Also the ramifications, public opinion (these things never stay secret). So far once word leaks I think I'll have House Ghallanda officially denounce the hunt and refuse service to any participants on principle (they named themselves after the helpful hound after all), but I can't see too many other Dragonmarks getting all up in arms about it. I mean if anyone touches Vadalis' herds of Griffons or Hippoogriffs there will be hell to pay... but wild ones? They wouldn't care heck a Vadalis might even participate, they'd have an edge. Kundarak would protect THEIR Manticore but would they care about other ones? I mean obviously their manticore would care... And just what would public opinion be on killing a Unicorn. I was thinking of having Bornal open up the Kings Forrest for the Hunt (So long as the participants pay for their permits anyone caught out there without one will be treated like a poacher). Karrnath on the other hand Under Martial Law still wouldn't let hunters into the Nightwood (well not foreign hunters anyway). In the Eldeen... well you have Druids... who will probably frown on trophy killing. Still I would like opinions on what public and factional reaction would be.
Fabius Maximus 10-17-07, 11:29 AM	The Eldeen druids would likely look away if the monsters are a danger to others. And not a few of these are magical beasts probably resulting from experiments, i.e. not natural. They'd hunt you down if you would kill an unicorn, though. The whole thing would be clearer if some designer or another would have bothered to spell out the Code of Galifar...
larry_the_titan 10-17-07, 12:10 PM	The whole thing would be clearer if some designer or another would have bothered to spell out the Code of Galifar... Well you never know if they will jot that down for the rest of us to use. If it isn't currently written out I suggest putting a list down yourself. @ OP you could always make one of the targets wildshaped Druid. I know most of them are magical beasts but some of them are Aberations and Outsiders, which are really easy to excuse turning into for a great length of time.
SwarthmoreDB 10-17-07, 01:28 PM	WHY AM I ASKING SUCH A QUESTION!? A sick little idea I had. My group is made up of heavily pulp inspired Big Game Hunters... and I thought up a campaign idea to earn them the titles of the best hunters in the land. Heavily inspired by The Cannonball Run and Rat Race. Some rather rich people (including, but not exclusively) The Aurum and Imre Levalle have decided to sponcer a hunt of some great mythic beasts across Khorvaire, obstensively for the betting on the teams of hunters... Half the action will be hunting down various dangerous creatures and the natural obstacles in the way... the other half is dealing with the competition. Like those movies I mentioned sabotage, outright cheating, assassination attempts (from rich patrons that have bet against the PCs) and the like. But what to hunt? The idea came to me while flipping through the ECS... the list was ready made for me... the Heraldic creatures of the Dragonmarked Houses. The Blink Dog, The Displacer Beast, the Cockatrice, the Hippogriff, the Griffon, the Unicorn, the Hydra, the Manticore, the Gorgon, the Basilisk, the Dragonne, the Chimera, and the Kraken... heck of a list. Sure CRs are all over the map... especially the Kraken. Still I would like opinions on what public and factional reaction would be. Hrm.... have you tried instead of having the PCs hunt the creatures, rather, capture them instead? It would still be dangerous, but you can have the creatures be put down to negative HP and then be captured... I just had a perverse idea for this sort of adventure and Pokemon... :D
OctaviusIII 10-17-07, 02:51 PM	I think that it varies depending on the creature and how they live. If they live in Sharn and own a shop, then I think they fall under the Code of Galifar. If they live wildly in the middle of nowhere, then they probably don't. If they live in the Eldeen Reaches, then they do. If they're threatening a village, then they don't. That would be my interpretation anyway.
naturax 10-17-07, 04:35 PM	Still we have an example of a Giant Owl in Sharn: City of Towers who runs his own shop... still this could truly be an exception rather than the rule. Wait, what? On which page?
JulesCARV 10-17-07, 04:37 PM	I'd say in general their rights are not recognized legally. Good people don't harm them unless necessary, and the general public of the former Galifar is likely to be outraged by, say, killing a unicorn, but they're not legally protected unless they're associated with a humanoid. That's my take, at least.
Nived 10-17-07, 05:43 PM	Wait, what? On which page? Chapter 4 Law and Order, Page 126 under the section "Who is Protected" Larry actually all the monsters I listed surprisingly enough are Magical Beasts, every single one of them. Crazy isn't it. When thinking about them other than the Griffon, Hippogriff, and the Manticore... most of these creatures would avoid civilization some of them, the Unicorn, the Basalisk would be nigh mythic, some might question if they even exist anymore. While the Cockatrice and the Displacer beast would be seen as dangerous creatures terrorizing the fringes of society. Also this is Eberron and Unicorns aren't outsiders, so they don't HAVE to be good, just fanatical about the 'purity of nature', imagine one that say... hangs out with the Ashbound.
Alex_ 10-17-07, 08:46 PM	A sick little idea I had. My group is made up of heavily pulp inspired Big Game Hunters... and I thought up a campaign idea to earn them the titles of the best hunters in the land. Heavily inspired by The Cannonball Run and Rat Race. Some rather rich people (including, but not exclusively) The Aurum and Imre Levalle have decided to sponcer a hunt of some great mythic beasts across Khorvaire, obstensively for the betting on the teams of hunters... Half the action will be hunting down various dangerous creatures and the natural obstacles in the way... the other half is dealing with the competition. Like those movies I mentioned sabotage, outright cheating, assassination attempts (from rich patrons that have bet against the PCs) and the like. But what to hunt? The idea came to me while flipping through the ECS... the list was ready made for me... the Heraldic creatures of the Dragonmarked Houses. The Blink Dog, The Displacer Beast, the Cockatrice, the Hippogriff, the Griffon, the Unicorn, the Hydra, the Manticore, the Gorgon, the Basilisk, the Dragonne, the Chimera, and the Kraken... heck of a list. Sure CRs are all over the map... especially the Kraken. Beyond awesome. I'm getting off my point... I do wonder about the legality of such a hunt. Also the ramifications, public opinion (these things never stay secret). So far once word leaks I think I'll have House Ghallanda officially denounce the hunt and refuse service to any participants on principle (they named themselves after the helpful hound after all), but I can't see too many other Dragonmarks getting all up in arms about it. I mean if anyone touches Vadalis' herds of Griffons or Hippoogriffs there will be hell to pay... but wild ones? They wouldn't care heck a Vadalis might even participate, they'd have an edge. Kundarak would protect THEIR Manticore but would they care about other ones? I mean obviously their manticore would care... And just what would public opinion be on killing a Unicorn. I was thinking of having Bornal open up the Kings Forrest for the Hunt (So long as the participants pay for their permits anyone caught out there without one will be treated like a poacher). Karrnath on the other hand Under Martial Law still wouldn't let hunters into the Nightwood (well not foreign hunters anyway). In the Eldeen... well you have Druids... who will probably frown on trophy killing. Still I would like opinions on what public and factional reaction would be. I think you're on the right track. However, having lots of people who are fine with it doesn't seem as interesting. I like the seedy and questionable Running Man/Rat Race thing you have going on. Those movies would have been no fun if everyone else is generally in on it, and gave their general support or assistance. There should be lots of sneaking around, backstabbing, desperate use of unexpected resources, and having to deal with people who aren't aware of this serious game you're playing (so they slow you down), and people who want to see it end (so they try to stop you intentionally). I wouldn't have public declarations or acknowledgment of the games. To keep it more hardcore and edgier, keep it a secret. The Dragonmarked houses and Royalty might try to support/stop it, but they don't want to be publicly associated with it (either for or against it).
naturax 10-18-07, 11:02 AM	Chapter 4 Law and Order, Page 126 under the section "Who is Protected" No, I meant where is there an owl bear store owner?
Nived 10-18-07, 12:05 PM	No, I meant where is there an owl bear store owner? Oh you know what it wasn't in Sharn City of Towers... I just mentally inserted it. Its in he Race of the Eight Winds Dragonshard article... which happens in Sharn which is why my memory hicuped. The Owl: The giant owl is the beast of Rattlestone and the Bazaar, and its colors are brown and gray. While it is one of the slowest creatures in the race, the owl is famous for manipulating the outcome of the race with intrigue and diplomacy. While many of the inhabitants of Dura speak dismissively of "two-faced owls," the merchants, con artists, and pickpockets of the region take pride in their mascot's cunning, and a strong streak of carefree pragmatism runs through these districts. A few former racing owls are now merchants themselves, which can lead to unusual encounters in the Bazaar.
Garden_State_Gamer 10-18-07, 01:19 PM	Hrm.... have you tried instead of having the PCs hunt the creatures, rather, capture them instead? http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff216/Johnny_Memphis/optimus.jpg
Hellcow 10-18-07, 06:46 PM	What page 126 of Sharn: City of Towers tells us is that the Code of Galifar protects "all citizens of the 12 nations recognized by the Treaty of Thronehold and all mambers of the dragonmarked houses", along with the warforged. The critical word as I see it is citizen. It doesn't say "all intelligent beings that reside in a nation", it specifically calls out that they must be citizens of those nations. Consider the following definition of "citizen": A person owing loyalty to and entitled by birth or naturalization to the protection of a state or nation. The displacer beast may be intelligent, but does HE recognize the authority of King Boranel? Does he make any effort to follow the laws of Galifar... or is he mainly interested in eating the other inhabitants of Breland? In my opinion, magical (or nonmagical) beasts will not, by default, be citizens... especially if they are dangerous. I think that an intelligent nonhumanoid can EARN citizenship, just as a humanoid resident alien can. And this is what I'd see with the giant owl in the Dragonshard. It's not that all giant owls born in Sharn are citizens; it's that a giant owl can go through the naturalization process, just like a drow from Xen'drik, a gnoll from Droaam, or an orc from the Shadow Marches. Undead are out of luck, because they are specifically excluded. Magical beasts aren't excluded, but neither do I see them being INcluded innately; they'll need to go to special effort to be recognized. In general, I think the hunt is on safe ground if it's hunting wild animals. Kundarak may have deals with SOME manticores, but no one is denying that MOST manticores are savage beasts; they may be capable of speech, but that just means that they can discuss how good you taste with the other manticores. I'd see the biggest risks in the court of public opinion being the unicorn and the blink dog. Unicorns are the most impressive in terms of intellect (at average Int 10, Wis 21, and Cha 24) and likely to have friends among the local druids... on the other hand, since (IMO) they're somewhat aloof when it comes to mingling with the regular public, there may not be a big outcry... no worse that Greenpeace pursuing whalers. Blink dogs are social creatures, and have that cute dogginess in addition to the Ghallanda question. I think there you need to decide just how helpful they are. Ghallanda has STORIES about the helpful blink dog... but hey, just because there are stories about wily Coyote doesn't mean that people welcome coyotes on their land. In Eberron, blink dogs are whatever alignment makes sense given their background, not "usually lawful good" - which means that you COULD have a back of malevolent blink dog bandits who prey on travelers, if you felt it made sense. Heck, you could have fiendish blink dogs who have allied with one of the Lords of Dust in exchange for power. Ghallanda may want to stand up for its symbol on pure principle, but if there's some bad blink dogs out there, I could see it going the other way, too.
Hellcow 10-18-07, 06:46 PM	No, I meant where is there an owl bear store owner? Giant owl, not owlbear. And yes, he has human assistants for those chores that require, well, hands.
Nived 10-18-07, 07:13 PM	Giant owl, not owlbear. And yes, he has human assistants for those chores that require, well, hands. I own a bird, they are surprisingly dexterous with those beaks and feet.
Hellcow 10-18-07, 08:09 PM	I own a bird, they are surprisingly dexterous with those beaks and feet. Absolutely. And if you've managed to make it big in aerial sports (and remember, there's more events than just the Race of Eight Winds), a hand of the mage amulet can also be useful.
Vikjunk 10-19-07, 01:24 AM	Heck, you could have fiendish blink dogs who have allied with one of the Lords of Dust in exchange for power. Great now I have visions of Blink Dog Warlocks making players lives a living hell. And that sounds like a scare thing to go up against even though Warlocks don't do have done that much damage or have that much range, they would a nightmare to put down do to them blinking, using Dimension Door ever round, and still have their move action after using either their Eldritch Blast or Invocations. Mr. Baker you're pure evil. I like it. ;)
ChimericalWolf 10-19-07, 05:36 PM	Another good option, I think, for the less openly-killable beasts is to obtain something from them. Perhaps in addition to the corpses of the other beasts, you have to get a unicorn tail-hair. Perhaps to make it interested, you either have to get it without the unicorn noticing or with the unicorn's concent. The latter gives you the option of a side-quest. Maybe the unicorn wants you to slay an undead or something. Perhaps another team has captured the unicorn's mate, and is "convincing" it to give up a hair. Something similar can be done with the blink dog.
Romulus LoneWolf 10-21-07, 11:49 AM	Another good option, I think, for the less openly-killable beasts is to obtain something from them. Perhaps in addition to the corpses of the other beasts, you have to get a unicorn tail-hair. Perhaps to make it interested, you either have to get it without the unicorn noticing or with the unicorn's concent. The latter gives you the option of a side-quest. Maybe the unicorn wants you to slay an undead or something. Perhaps another team has captured the unicorn's mate, and is "convincing" it to give up a hair. Something similar can be done with the blink dog. That's a good idea, and it would definetly shake things up to include specific conditions for each target creature, forcing participants to display a bit of enginuity beyond simply coming up with ways to kill a target.
Neutronium_Dragon 10-22-07, 08:50 PM	Perhaps it isn't enough to just hunt down any old creature of that given type - perhaps there are specific ones which are marked for the hunt. You can't just bring in a manticore head, but have to bring in the head of the manticore Snarltooth One-Eye. Which means you need to head off to specific locations all across the continent, not only turning it into a race as everyone chases after different creatures first, but making it a lot more likely that you'll end up with "Nothing you can possess..." situations occuring.
Hellcow 10-22-07, 09:27 PM	Perhaps it isn't enough to just hunt down any old creature of that given type - perhaps there are specific ones which are marked for the hunt. You can't just bring in a manticore head, but have to bring in the head of the manticore Snarltooth One-Eye. This is the path I'd take. Even if it's not a single specific creature, it could certainly be from a particular pack/region... you can't get ol' Yeller the crippled blink dog, you need to bring down one of the fiendish blink dogs of the Demon Wastes. On the other hand, making it a hunt to bring down specific near-legendary creatures - think The Ghost in the Darkness and Moby Dick-as-kraken - would certainly be interesting. In this case, it's impossible for two teams to get all the beasts; instead, it's a race to get the best score you can. Each beast can have a value based on the perceived difficulty - so do you start with the easy ones and hope to get a bunch of them, or go after the high-stakes big-reward kraken?