Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sir Elton 02-13-07, 12:04 PM	Since someone announced that they can fit Sarlona, Khorvaire, Xendrik, and Argonessen on a planet the exact same size as Earth and still have a lot of Room Left Over, I present to you the Oriental Continent of Kharaka. ---------------------------------------------------------- Kharaka, OVERVIEW Kharaka is the Oriental Continent, separated from Khorvaire by a vast ocean, but separated from Sarlona by 500 miles of ocean. Kharaka is protected by the Lung Dragons and the Celestial Bureaucracy. Although the Dragon Gods' Constellations can be seen in the night sky, the Lung Dragons are scattered across the Continent of Kharaka. Kharaka has several ecosystems and includes an archipelago of islands off of it's east coast. The Kingdoms of Kharaka include: * The Empire of Kharok (Epic India) * The Silk Kingdoms (China, The Tang Dynasty) * The Kurgan Lands (Parthians, Mongolians, Kurgans, Amazons, White Huns, Dark Huns, and Inspired) * The Kingdom of Astra (Ancient Cambodia, Khmers) * The Kingdom of Cherry Blossoms (Korea) * And the Land of the Rising Sun (Sengoku Japan!) The Three Major Kingdoms in Kharaka are: * The Empire of Kharok * The Silk Kingdoms * The Land of the Rising Sun
Sir Elton 02-13-07, 12:15 PM	The Empire of Kharok The Empire of Kharok was first settled by a group of Sarlonians called the Dravids. They named their kingdom Dravidia and found the Vanaras of Dravidia to their liking. However, it was not long until Dravidia was invaded by the Kurgans, Sarlonians forced to migrate to Kharaka because of Ideological and Spiritual differences with the other Sarolonians. The Sarlonian invasions happened in waves. The last Sarlonian invasion was the Quoric Invasion, as an army of Reidrans led by their Inspired Masters conquered all of Kharok and created a powerful Apartheid. The Silk Kingdoms managed to destroy an exhausted Sarlonian army, so the Inspired sent the Dreaming Dark to infiltrate the Silk Kingdoms. The races of Kharok include: * Humans * Vanaras * Rakashasas * Naga (Legend of the Five Rings types) * and Spirit Folk The Religion of Kharok is an Hindu Analog. The Culture of Kharok mirrors that of Epic India. India from 1500 B.C. to 550 B.C. Becareful, the girls don't wear shirts and they don't wear brassieres. Brassieres were invented, but discarded beause they were incredibly uncomfortable.
Sir Elton 02-13-07, 12:33 PM	The Silk Kingdoms are found in lands that are quite fertile and green. The Sarlonians who settled here are decendants of a man called Sin. The Sino-Sarlonians were impressed with the land and lived here. However, even the Silk Kingdoms were subject to Kurgan invasions. The culture of the Kurgans dominated Silk Kingdom outlook and they gained an Oriental Ideology. The Silk Kingdoms, although based on the Tang Dynasty, isn't an unified land. But their most coveted commodity is animal silk, which is spun by the silkworm moth. Walls protect the Silk Kingdoms, and the Silk Kingdoms control the mighty Silk Way, which is a land and water route on which Silk is distributed. Having defeated the Quoric Invasion, the Silk Kingdoms are infested with agents of the Dreaming Dark. The people of the Silk Kingdoms call themselves the Sino peoples to this day, even when Blonde Kurgish blood shows up every once in a blue moon ( :) ) Races of the Silk Kingdoms * Human * Spirit Folk * Ratling * Half-Giants * Xephs * Elans Classes of the Silk Kingdoms * Fighter * Cleric (Follower of Heaven, Follower of the Tao, Follower of Buddha) * Shaman (Ancestor Worship, Confucianism) * Swashbuckler (Wu'xia warrior) * Wu Jen (Oriental Adventures version, the Complete Arcane Wu Jen is only found in Khorvaire) * Sorcerer * Rogue * Monk (Martial Arts is very hard to do in D&D). PRCs * Shintao Monk * Tattooed Monk * Bear Warrior * Blade Dancer * Eunuch Warlock * Shapeshifter * Void Disciple * Weapon Master
Sir Elton 02-13-07, 12:50 PM	The Land of the Rising Sun The Land of the Rising Sun is a collection of isands off the east coast of Kharaka. The People of the Land of the Rising Sun is divided into two groups. The Anakai people, who are directly descended from the Kurgans and blonde haired Sarlonians. The majority of the people of the Land of the Rising Sun have a majority of Sino blood, but there is a significant mixture of Kurgan and Khorvairian human blood. The Land of the Rising Sun was settled by four major cultures: Aundairians, Sarlonians, Sino-peoples, and Elves (don't ask, I'll let someone else figure that out). For some reason, their culture and history developed to the Sengoku (Warring States) period of Japan. There is no known Dreaming Dark agents in the Land of the Rising Sun. Races of the Land of the Rising Sun: * Humans * Hengeyokai * Spirit Folk * Ratlings * Elan * Kalashtar * Changeling Classes of the Land of the Rising Sun: * Samurai (Oriental Adventures Version) * Fighter * Shaman (Shinto Priests) * Cleric (Buddhist Priests, the Soveriegn Host, the Dark Six) * Bard * Ranger * Rogue * Shugenja (Oriental Adventures version) * Sohei * Sorcerer * Monk * Wizard * Ninja (only if you don't have OA) PRCs * Henshin Mystic * Shintao Monk * Tattooed Monk * Fist of the Quori * Iaijutsu Master * Ninja Spy * Shadow Scout * Void Disciple * Kensei * Yakuza The Land of the Rising Sun major religions include Shinto and Buddhism; but there are a few places where the Soveriegn Host and the Dark Six are worshipped.
SilentOne 02-20-07, 10:07 PM	But why???? I don't see any need for any of this, as it really doesn't fit at all with any Eberron flavor that I've seen whatsoever, particularly the introduction of real-world religions. Might just be my anti-OA bias speaking, but please stay as far away from my Eberron as you can.
ChaoticGood 02-21-07, 12:31 AM	I wouldn't use it, either, but I can respect the amount of work that went into it. Good job so far, Sir Elton! P.S.: I caught the "Sino-Sarlonans" joke. Boo for puns! :P
Sir Elton 02-21-07, 07:18 PM	But why???? I don't see any need for any of this, as it really doesn't fit at all with any Eberron flavor that I've seen whatsoever, particularly the introduction of real-world religions. Might just be my anti-OA bias speaking, but please stay as far away from my Eberron as you can. Then may I humbly petition for you to remove the monk from your game and replace it with the Pankratiast. :)
Sir Elton 02-21-07, 07:32 PM	P.S.: I caught the "Sino-Sarlonans" joke. Boo for puns! :P What joke? :confused:
Romulus LoneWolf 02-21-07, 07:36 PM	Instead of Real-World religions, I'd just adapt some of the existing religions of Eberron.. Instead of Buddhism, a variant of the Silver Flame and an animistic faith with elements of the Sovereign Host and Dark Six, for exemple. On the other hand, if I wanted to create a "Land of the Orient" for Eberron, I'd do it a bit differently.. Namely, I'd blend Indian, Chinese, Korean and Japanese influences together into a single nation, and put it on an Island the size of Aerenal in the middle of the Barren Sea.
Romulus LoneWolf 02-21-07, 07:37 PM	What joke? :confused: "Sino" is the term used to describe people of chinese descent. "Sino-Americans" for Americans descended from the Chinese, for exemple.
Sir Elton 02-21-07, 10:28 PM	Yes, precisely. One of Ham's descendants was named Sin. His descendants colonized most of East Asia. so, I wasn't joking.
Sir Elton 02-21-07, 10:46 PM	Instead of Real-World religions, I'd just adapt some of the existing religions of Eberron.. Instead of Buddhism, a variant of the Silver Flame and an animistic faith with elements of the Sovereign Host and Dark Six, for exemple. Example. Yes. I think you have some good ideas there. However, the Silver Flame doesn't seem right. Namely, I'd blend Indian, Chinese, Korean and Japanese influences together into a single nation, and put it on an Island the size of Aerenal in the middle of the Barren Sea. Okay, is Aerenal big enough to cause a Class V Hurricane to run out of energy?
Volaran 02-21-07, 11:13 PM	As with all fantasy worlds, 'It is if you want it to be.'
Romulus LoneWolf 02-21-07, 11:19 PM	Okay, is Aerenal big enough to cause a Class V Hurricane to run out of energy? ...What's that got to do with anything?
Sir Elton 02-22-07, 12:18 AM	EVERYTHING! http://curriculum.calstatela.edu/courses/builders/ The Coriolis Effect, Weather patterns, major ocean currents, the Land/Sea ratio. Our planet is finely tuned to life here. The Land/Sea ratio is very precise. It's ordered enough to provide a good sense of Chaos; but not too much to be a danger. Have you seen Blue Planet?
Goemoe 02-22-07, 04:19 AM	Nice work, but does not fit in my understanding of Eberron at all. I have oriental in Eberron as it stands. It even plays a part, as Dhakaani throws this kind of flavor at my players now and then. Monks don't need to be oriental at all. If you are so fond of oriental style, why do you picked Eberron at all? *shrugs* your world your game, my point of view ;) But nice work anyway. Goemoe BTW: I couldn't care less about... The Coriolis Effect, Weather patterns, major ocean currents, the Land/Sea ratio. in any given D&D game.
Volaran 02-22-07, 04:43 AM	The Coriolis Effect, Weather patterns, major ocean currents, the Land/Sea ratio. I'll admit to being sort of confused as to why this matters in particular for this case. I don't believe it was considered when Eberron was initially designed, and certainly in a setting that is essentially a dragon, wrapped around another dragon, encircled by dead pieces of a third dragon, I'm not so worried about Real-World natual laws not applying. Which isn't to say weather cannot be interesting (the reality storms in SoS are an excellent example of 'weather' unique to Eberron), but I prefer it to serve the needs of the plot and to make sense internally to the campaign world than be a perfect analogue to Real-World Earth.
Romulus LoneWolf 02-22-07, 06:48 AM	EVERYTHING! http://curriculum.calstatela.edu/courses/builders/ The Coriolis Effect, Weather patterns, major ocean currents, the Land/Sea ratio. Our planet is finely tuned to life here. The Land/Sea ratio is very precise. It's ordered enough to provide a good sense of Chaos; but not too much to be a danger. Have you seen Blue Planet? ...I just want a single, small Island-Nation with a pseudo-oriental culture on it. Not a thesis on environmental design.
AvonRekaes 02-23-07, 02:30 AM	I think you guys are being entirely too closeminded about this. "why play eberron at all? cause your ideas are clearly ruining my interpretation of eberron and just because you want to play in a game where establish eberron nations deal and interact with an oriental culutre doesn't mean you should. Because that's not eberron and you're a blasphemer." Lighten up. Oriental history and cluture obviously interests Sir Elton and he wants to explore how that'd interact with the canon setting of Eberron. Let him, and let people who are interested come to this thread and discuss it. Suggesting that he's "ruining" Eberron is bunk. He's adding what he likes to it. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. He's also a bit of a simulationist (talk about weather paterns and class V hurricanes and whatnot >_>) so you can't begrudge him wanting to "fix" whatever "problems" there are with Eberrons land-water ratio (or something). I've seen another thread around here a while ago about a completely new continent and most people were cool about it. The second someone wants to make a continent with oriental flavor there's cries of despoiling the setting. I don't get it. Myself, I tie oriental classes and flavor (but not actual asian history) to Sarlona because psionics seems to very much lend itself to some oriental philosphies of self-enlightenment through meditation and thought training. (The Path of Light is very buddhist in my games)
Sir Elton 02-23-07, 12:32 PM	Here is Eberron with every major D&D continent added to it. http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/8505/397679093519d1b00f4ogg4.jpg All I'm doing is adding a landmass the size of the circle to Eberron to provide a little more stability to the weather patterns. http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/1341/wholeworldddconip2.jpg Whether or not it has major Oriental nations on it, is pretty much my affair, now.
Edymnion 02-23-07, 12:40 PM	Our planet is finely tuned to life here. The Land/Sea ratio is very precise. It's ordered enough to provide a good sense of Chaos; but not too much to be a danger.Actually, life is very finely tuned to our planet. We change to match the planet, the planet does not change to match us. Excluding modern humans from that, of course, as we have become quite proficient at changing our world, generally for the worst.
Sir Elton 02-23-07, 12:53 PM	Actually, life is very finely tuned to our planet. We change to match the planet, the planet does not change to match us. Excluding modern humans from that, of course, as we have become quite proficient at changing our world, generally for the worst. I believe we are both right.
goblin_pride 02-23-07, 01:19 PM	Actually, life is very finely tuned to our planet. We change to match the planet, the planet does not change to match us. Excluding modern humans from that, of course, as we have become quite proficient at changing our world, generally for the worst. Why Edy, I didn't know you were Druish.
eehamburg 02-23-07, 01:41 PM	Why Edy, I didn't know you were Druish. OMG! That positively floored me. Is edy a Druish princess? Does Edy know the power of the Schwartz? only time will tell. Let us pray to Yogurt as we have need of his wisdom. LOL
Sir Elton 02-23-07, 02:08 PM	Now there's an NPC. A Goblin who is known as Yogurt, and "worshipped" in the new continent. For only the power of the Swartz (psionics) can save us from Dark Helmet the mixed up Quori who play with dolls and fantasizes about passionately kissing the *itch Queen of Aundair.
Yakman 02-23-07, 02:17 PM	Actually, life is very finely tuned to our planet. We change to match the planet, the planet does not change to match us. Excluding modern humans from that, of course, as we have become quite proficient at changing our world, generally for the worst. Living organisms have had a major influence on earth's chemistry and structure. It was living organisms who changed the chemistry of earth's atmosphere from carbon-dominant to the current mixture. Limestone is the skeletons of billions of sea-creatures, while shale is also composed of living organisms. the geology of the planet, from the paleozoic onwards, is radically different from that of the proterozoic, which is, in itself, radically different from the archean.
Edymnion 02-26-07, 12:31 PM	Living organisms have had a major influence on earth's chemistry and structure. It was living organisms who changed the chemistry of earth's atmosphere from carbon-dominant to the current mixture. Limestone is the skeletons of billions of sea-creatures, while shale is also composed of living organisms. the geology of the planet, from the paleozoic onwards, is radically different from that of the proterozoic, which is, in itself, radically different from the archean.Yes, how far you want to go with it depends entirely on the time frame. Earth changes to reflect the life on it over geological ages. Life changes to reflect the Earth over the millenia. The sahara won't magically turn into a rain forest if we drop a bunch of trees and animals into it, because the Earth will not adapt itself based on life on anything but a scale of millions of years. But the point is, life adapts to match it's environment, the environment does not change to match the life. Sure, the early Earth was much differant than it is now, and much of the change is due to the presence of life. But none of those changes benefitted the existing life. More oxygen in the atmosphere, but that oxygen was a waste product of early plants, which had to change and adapt to the new oxygen rich atmosphere. Life is always playing catchup to the planet, not the other way around.
alchemyprime 06-10-07, 02:56 PM	Sir Elton, I applaude you for trying to create a scientifically accurate Eberron with a plausible historical background. I also realise that this is foolish. I will use Kharaka in my game, for I wanted a definite way to mix Oriental flavor without every samurai being a goblin or dwarf. But also, the world is supposed to have a mystical, mysterious atmoshphere to it. The occasional evidence of gods, but simple enough that it can be chalked up to luck or magic. The corruption of even the one religion with obvious magical backing, let alone the others, yet the small inkling that there is some purity, some truth within the churches. The small cults that may become full religions, be eradicated or be absorbed into the Host and Dark Six. The action of a barroom blitz, coupled with the mystery of a murder and a dame with gams that won't quit. As I see it, Eberron is the Roaring 20s of D&D. From the Puritan movement, to the mafia, to a race finally getting freedom, slowly, from prejudice, from everyone trying to forget a war, I see Eberron as the 1920s. Khorvaire is like America, with it's various problems. Adar seems like Russia, going to something good, but which may turn around to get them. Rideria seems like Germany, ready to start a plan that one or two crazy men finally wanted to impose upon a minority. Aernal is like the tribes of South America that were peaceful. Xen'drik is the tribes and wilds that weren't so peaceful, with secrets that an archaeology teacher at Morgrave goes out to find and retreive. But it is missing the Orient, the land to the East that has been locked off for so long, and finally is opening full trade to Khorvaire. That is how I see Kharaka. So, again, I applaude your efforts Elton. You did a fine job on Kharaka, as far as I sees it. I plan on using this to increase the intrigue, with it's own secrets for the Khorvairians to explore, to see if that Prophecy can finally be understood. And I realise I forgot Argonsen. ANd how to spell Argonsen. Please don't flame me for that.
MDosantos 06-11-07, 01:30 AM	Just wanted to say, nice work. the only problem I have is the real world religions, well you could use them but at least change their name, If I have the opportunity I will use Kharaka too, (with a few changes maybe) so if you didn't abandon this project I would like to see more of it...
Sir Elton 06-11-07, 09:41 PM	For those who think its foolish to simulate Eberron as a real planet, think on this: http://curriculum.calstatela.edu/courses/builders/lessons/less/les3/Vles3.html Weather is complex, arising from interactions between oceans, air, land, and solar heat. excerpt: "On a day to day level we talk about weather, and weather happens in the atmosphere. Different atmospheric layers have different temperatures, and temperature changes lead to winds. Winds pick up dust and moisture and move heat about from place to place. Water evaporates, rain falls. The rotation of the planet affects wind and ocean movements. "We call long term weather trends climate. For example, on earth the climate in the arctic is different from the climate in Hawaii. Although weather changes from day to day, the fluctuations stay within predictable ranges. Life forms adapt to the climates that they live in. The climates that you have on your world will influence the kinds of life forms that you can have there." :)
Rekko 06-11-07, 10:55 PM	I must say I am fond of weather realism. Thanks Sir Elton for the links. I never used Orientals in a game before, and I don't plan on doign so soon. However, I see there are some cultures on Eberron that could come close to it. And you can always change or fix things to your own will. Do you have more info coming up on Kharaka? Where did ou get that Eberron map, and do you have it in bigger format? Rekko
alchemyprime 06-11-07, 10:58 PM	Again, I see it as foolish, yes, but I applaude you. I think more fantasy worlds need to be scientifically and historically plausible. When I said it was foolish, I meant it sounded like something I would do. In fact, I did with the world I am making, Nazak. Dude, Elton, this is awesome. I'll tweak it, as I have tweaked Eberron, but it is awesome. I do agree, the real world religions seem a little out of place. But everything else, perfect. Even the names seem right, as they are like literal translations into Common. Am I right in that assumption? Again, good job.
Sir Elton 06-12-07, 12:44 AM	I do agree, the real world religions seem a little out of place. But everything else, perfect. Even the names seem right, as they are like literal translations into Common. Am I right in that assumption? Again, good job. Well, Real World Religions are easier to work in the background. Even though I have a handbook to construct a "bogus religion," it wouldn't have the philosophic impact like the real world oriental religions. To make a "bogus oriental religion" seem real, I'll have to read the Sword World RPG [I believe]. And I don't speak Japanese. To make an Eberron Hinduism work I can set up the Soveriegn Host and the Dark Six; and erase the boundries between them. i.e. Dol Arrah would be seen as a Conqueror's God by the Conquered, and a Heroic God by the Conquerers. His cult would be like the Silver Flame's: three different ones --- one where he is seen as a vengeful deity, one where he is seen as heroic, and another seeing him as something else. Plus the "Pantheon" would include some native deities (Shiva is one of the oldest deities in Hinduism, dating back from the Harappan Culture). Eberron Hinduism would teach reincarnation. Therefore, while Warforged is seen a certain way in Khorvaire (as their own beings with warforged souls), Kharakans would see the same Warforged as living beings with souls who lived as humans before. You could even have a sect of Kharakans who have a Minbari view of their souls (i.e. take a human soul and put it into a warforged, and the whole human stock is made weaker). After a while, Buddhism would arise. But still be circular: teaching reincarnation and the evolution of souls. Khorvarians would believe that Souls live one life, and a possible ressurection; while Kharakans believe in the reincarnation. What makes one nation Oriental and another Occidental is the contrast in the philosophic thought process. The Occidental Khorvarians and most of Sarlona think linearly. The Oriental Kharakans think circularly. But I'm not one for using "Bogus Religions." If it's a religion for an RPG, I say take the time to make it authentic. If it's not done authentically, then use a real world religion or take ideas from a real world religion to authenticate it. There is no shame in that. Elton.
Darakhoranon 06-12-07, 08:28 AM	No, Sir Elton, you DONīT want to really begin that discussion (again)! While I can see your points speaking for using real world religions, I still donīt like it at all. Doing this just begs for (completely unnecessary) real world discussions. And letīs not forget that everytime youīd bring up a cleric of a real world religion, youīd risk alienating one (or possibly more) of your players by playing the NPC in a way "no true follower of religion X would even contemplate"... It might be quite entertaining to discuss religious believes over a glass of wine, weīre talking about playing D&D (or any other RPG) here. So I suggest forgetting about real world religions while playing D&D. Sure, there are some (ancient) deities from the real world (e.g. the more or less Egyptian pantheon of Mulhorand in FR), but as far as I know, nobody still really believes in the existence of Osiris, Isis etc., which allows us to avoid the usual problems I named (and we also donīt have that much information about said godsī supposed character). But if you want to exchange non-existant religions for real world ones because the latter "feel better", go ahead - itīs your game, after all. Apart from that, I donīt really see a need for scientific authenticity in a fantasy world (where magic and psionics regularly break the natural laws down into quantums...), but again, go ahead and do it. Alltogether, great work, Sir Elton. While your new continent might not be necessary for Eberron, itīs still a good read. P.S.: Rekko, this map should be somewhere on these boards - and I donīt think thereīs a bigger version available. You could download and enlarge it, but you almost certainly wouldnīt get more details...
Alex_ 06-12-07, 09:59 AM	I'm not seeing how this really belongs in Eberron. It's just an Asian setting that one can decide to try and fit onto the globe. It seems as much Eberron as do the Nyambe or Azteca settings (both of which I love). If it were to actually apply to Eberron, a better idea would be how to apply some elements of Asian (as well as Meso-American, African, Middle Eastern/Central Asian, etc) elements into existing Eberron cultures, lor at the very least, entwine their fates together in some way. What is Kharaka's relationship with Khorvaire? How do they approach Magic and Psionics? Is there any reason why anyone would want to go there or make a character from there instead of Khorvaire, Sarlonna, Argonessen, or Xendrik other than the more overt Asian flavor?
Sir Elton 06-12-07, 01:08 PM	Apart from that, I donīt really see a need for scientific authenticity in a fantasy world (where magic and psionics regularly break the natural laws down into quantums... No, not really. In a 'real' Fantasy World, all the Natural Laws that you see as regularly breaking down really don't. Natural Laws can't be broken, it's impossible to break them. The 'breaking down' you see in RPGing is an illusion. Magic and Psionics operate according to their spheres set up by Natural Law. In other words, they both operate in essientally the same fashion. Magician A, Cleric B, and Psion C all start casting their spells and powers with a thought: a vibration. The Vibration changes the harmony of the other vibrations and the result is a healing spell, a fireball spell, and a telepathic missive. The difference between the three of them that Cleric B is trying to be like their God, Magician A is trying to be as a God, and Psion C is being a God. Of the three, only the Psion has complete understanding of Who He Is. The others are trying to find out who they are, but believe that they are still Less than a God. Get the picture?
Alex_ 06-13-07, 11:45 AM	No, not really. In a 'real' Fantasy World, all the Natural Laws that you see as regularly breaking down really don't. Natural Laws can't be broken, it's impossible to break them. The 'breaking down' you see in RPGing is an illusion. It's not an illusion because they were never there. Being a fantasy (i.e. fictional) world, the "laws" can be anything the writer wishes them to be, and they can unidentified, changed, or broken by will. They can, and quite often do contradict with real world physics and understandings of the world. Magic and Psionics operate according to their spheres set up by Natural Law. In other words, they both operate in essientally the same fashion. Magician A, Cleric B, and Psion C all start casting their spells and powers with a thought: a vibration. The Vibration changes the harmony of the other vibrations and the result is a healing spell, a fireball spell, and a telepathic missive. Although sometimes these vibrations result in things like the violation of the law of conservation of mass/energy, especially in Conjuration. The shrinking and growing someone, likewise poses issues as we must debate as to whether we are shrinking/enlarging them by merely modifying the size of their atoms, or the number, both of which carry significant consequences. It is possible, through use of something like a Hallow spell, to give inanimate objects objective ethical affiliations. These effects, although they can be described in a way that gives the impression they are following consistent rules that are compatible with our own, do not often hold up under close scrutiny. Magic in D&D, or in most settings is not realistically simply the manipulation of existing or possible phenomenon. That is what the writer can call it, but they can call it anything they want. It's fantasy/fictional. The difference between the three of them that Cleric B is trying to be like their God, Magician A is trying to be as a God, and Psion C is being a God. Of the three, only the Psion has complete understanding of Who He Is. The others are trying to find out who they are, but believe that they are still Less than a God. Get the picture? Perhaps in your campaign, although in core D&D, Clerics are often described as being much more humble. They strive not to become their deities, but rather to listen to and become vessels for their deity's power. Wizards learn formulas through study that they know generate predictable magical effects. Sorcerers control magic through sheer force of will (not to be confused with the Will save) while Psionics are those that know that every mind is its own infinite plane of existence in its own right, and they can tap into it and bring its potential into the world. Not saying that you can't do things differently in your campaign, but to so boldly state that "A does B, and C does D" in an authoritative manner, especially just as you finished explaining the nature of a real Fantasy World leads me to believe you're making much broader conclusions.
AkumaDaimyo 06-14-07, 06:55 PM	Isn't the term oriental offensive when referring to people of asian origin? Might want to not use that term.
The Ubbergeek 06-15-07, 03:05 PM	Isn't the term oriental offensive when referring to people of asian origin? Might want to not use that term. Only in Britain and the PC crowd/left.
AkumaDaimyo 06-15-07, 03:06 PM	Regardless, maybe people should be a little more considerate concerning that term?
eehamburg 06-15-07, 03:22 PM	welcome one and all ... now political correctness is even on the internet telling us what to say and how to think ... where have all of our freedoms gone?
AkumaDaimyo 06-15-07, 10:12 PM	More like where have your manners gone? Your little speil about what to think and all won't fly here if you use any of the real juicy racial slurs you know. What do you mean "now"? It's BEEN on the internet. Where have you been pal? If you actually read the terms of service on Wizards you'll see that you pretty much do have to be politically correct here. So if you have a prob with that I'm sure the Wizo's can show you the door.
ArcTan 06-16-07, 06:53 PM	Then may I humbly petition for you to remove the monk from your game and replace it with the Pankratiast. :) We've been over this before. I'm not taking the Monk out of the game (though note the word "monk" is definitely not of Oriental origin, and neither, really, is the idea of a monk who lives in the wilderness and has special martial training). I'm saying that I can have Monk, Samurai, Ninja, Shugenja and Wu Jen if I want them, and I don't have to make up some totally incongruous continent (that for some reason has just been sitting there undiscovered) that's one giant stereotype of East Asia in order to use these concepts. Just like I resent the idea that because vague elements of D&D look "Occidental" that means that the Five Nations really are Europe, or that that means Xen'drik literally is Africa, or that Sarlona literally is... another Europe.
ArcTan 06-16-07, 06:57 PM	Yes, precisely. One of Ham's descendants was named Sin. His descendants colonized most of East Asia. so, I wasn't joking. Er, that's not where the prefix "Sino-" comes from. Also, Ham didn't have any son by that name. His sons were Cush, Mizraim, Put and Canaan (Genesis 10:6). "Sino-" comes from the Latin "Sinae", which is probably a Latinized rendering of an Arabic mispronunciation "Sin" for "Qin" (pronounced sort of like "Cheen"), which, more directly, is also the source for the English word "China", named after the Qin or Ch'in Dynasty (the first dynasty of the Chinese empire). Not that this matters, except -- just to be a little nasty about it -- your ignorance is showing through and that's one reason I'm annoyed at the Orientalist presumptions of all this nonsense.
ArcTan 06-16-07, 07:06 PM	I think you guys are being entirely too closeminded about this. "why play eberron at all? cause your ideas are clearly ruining my interpretation of eberron and just because you want to play in a game where establish eberron nations deal and interact with an oriental culutre doesn't mean you should. Because that's not eberron and you're a blasphemer." Lighten up. Oriental history and cluture obviously interests Sir Elton and he wants to explore how that'd interact with the canon setting of Eberron. Let him, and let people who are interested come to this thread and discuss it. Suggesting that he's "ruining" Eberron is bunk. He's adding what he likes to it. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. I'm annoyed because the whole idea of dropping an "Oriental" continent into Eberron is not just aesthetically horrible, but it's also offensive because -- by definition -- it is Orientalist, and promotes the stupid assumption that there's a fundamental divide between "Occidental" and "Oriental" cultures, and that "Oriental" elements in fantasy need to be explicitly called out as "Oriental" in order to distinguish them from the rest of the batch, which is inherently "Occidental". And all this *did* come out the last time Sir Elton mentioned this project, and it was just as offensive to me then as it is now. He's also a bit of a simulationist (talk about weather paterns and class V hurricanes and whatnot >_>) so you can't begrudge him wanting to "fix" whatever "problems" there are with Eberrons land-water ratio (or something). Well, that's just a dumb excuse for a dumb idea. The real reason for Kharaka is clearly that he wants to put an Oriental Adventures playground in Eberron for no good reason except the aforementioned annoying Orientalist preconceptions (all the MYSTERY and WONDER of playing an Orientalist stereotype goes away if they don't come from a mysterious continent that's completely separated from the "regular world" and is divided into cultures transparently based on real-world cultures with their religions and customs based on real-world Asian stereotypes in every minute detail!). Any meteorological argument is pointless, since it assumes 1) That the planet Eberron is the same size and mass as the planet Earth, which we have no reason to assume (remember that gravity in Eberron, like in all D&D worlds, is this funny thing that works nothing like gravity in real life) 2) That the properties of air and water would be exactly the same in a world where classical alchemical principles are literally true and air and water are fundamental elements of reality that fundamentally embody principles like "lightness" and "heaviness" and 3) That Sir Elton is a Ph.D. in climatology who is qualified to talk about counterfactual questions about weather that, in *my* experience, even actual Ph.D.s in the physical sciences can't come to agreement on. I've seen another thread around here a while ago about a completely new continent and most people were cool about it. The second someone wants to make a continent with oriental flavor there's cries of despoiling the setting. I don't get it. I don't like the idea of taking a completely separate setting concept that's intentionally based closely on stereotypes about a real place and putting it in a campaign setting that most of us who like it like because it avoids those cliches. I don't like a thinly disguised Rokugan in Eberron any more than I'd like a thinly disguised Al-Qadim or Maztica in Eberron. It's stupid. And it offends me because it's taking fantasy a giant step backwards into something it's still struggling to pull itself away from (being actual *fantasy* with actual *imagination* instead of regurgitated cliched stereotypes of real cultures and real places). Mind you, I'm not a *fan* of the whole "Let's drop another continent into the setting!" concept at all in the first place, but I don't feel moved to respond unless it actually offends me in another manner, which the whole "Oriental stuff rocks! Oriental Oriental Oriental! I want an Orient in my Eberron!" crap does, in spades. Myself, I tie oriental classes and flavor (but not actual asian history) to Sarlona because psionics seems to very much lend itself to some oriental philosphies of self-enlightenment through meditation and thought training. (The Path of Light is very buddhist in my games) Sure, I do a little of that too, as long as it's not overdone to the point of obnoxious cliche. Kharaka is the *epitome* of what I hate about "Oriental" flavor in games (as someone who *is* a big fan of Asian culture and Asian folklore in fantasy).
ArcTan 06-16-07, 07:11 PM	Isn't the term oriental offensive when referring to people of asian origin? Might want to not use that term. I don't give a crap about the term itself. I consider it offensive because of the point of view it represents, and don't care if the person using it is not evincing that point of view. Sir Elton, on the other hand, is *embodying* that point of view in the worst possible way, so yes, his use of that word is telling. The reason I don't like the word "Orient" is because it comes from a historical division between the "Occident" and the "Orient" -- West and East -- as two fundamentally distinct groups that were based on fundamentally different "principles", lumping the whole West into one group and the whole East into some fundamentally different group, and always treating them with this divide in mind. Usually this leads to the West and Occidental things being associated with anything considered "normal" or "ordinary" or "scientific" or "rational", and the Orient being associated with the "exotic" and "beautiful" and "mystical" and "alien" and so forth. Which is crap -- it's crap because it's *not true* and because it grossly oversimplifies the facts and in so doing does a disservice to the diversity and complexity of both "West" and "East", and it's *also* crap because it's been an excuse to patronize and alienate and generally treat "Oriental" cultures as zoo specimens by "Occidental" people, which, let me tell you, gets extremely tiring after a while when you're the target of it and you're pretty aware that you and people like you are just folks. So yes, "Orientalism" is a word that refers to a bad, stupid habit of thought -- a subtle but very real form of racism -- and referring to various Asian countries as "the Orient" has historically been a symptom of it, which is why it's called "Orientalism".
ArcTan 06-16-07, 07:18 PM	No, not really. In a 'real' Fantasy World, all the Natural Laws that you see as regularly breaking down really don't. Natural Laws can't be broken, it's impossible to break them. The 'breaking down' you see in RPGing is an illusion. Magic and Psionics operate according to their spheres set up by Natural Law. In other words, they both operate in essientally the same fashion. Magician A, Cleric B, and Psion C all start casting their spells and powers with a thought: a vibration. The Vibration changes the harmony of the other vibrations and the result is a healing spell, a fireball spell, and a telepathic missive. The difference between the three of them that Cleric B is trying to be like their God, Magician A is trying to be as a God, and Psion C is being a God. Of the three, only the Psion has complete understanding of Who He Is. The others are trying to find out who they are, but believe that they are still Less than a God. Get the picture? You missed the point. A fantasy world may *have* natural laws -- indeed, it has to, unless it's some kind of surreal Rimbauldian non-world -- but those natural laws are *different* from our natural laws. The existence of magic by itself *proves* that the fantasy world's laws are different from ours. While it may be convenient to try to label "magic" as being the very specific parts of the fantasy world that differ from the way our world works and try to keep the world exactly realistic in every other respect, this is, in reality, not possible. Everything's all tied together, after all -- the laws that make your TV work are ultimately the same laws that make the Earth spin around the Sun and that make homing pigeons know which way north is. Most D&D worlds present a world where things that would be impossible in real life are *so common* (the whole existence of the planar cosmology, dragons that can fly under their own power, giants who can stand up straight, geocentric solar systems, the four classical elements, etc.) that it's really ridiculous to try to make large, robust arguments about how some abstruse real-life physical phenomenon *must* exist in Oerth or Toril or Eberron. The fact that there even is such a thing as an Air Elemental immediately makes me think that most of real-world meteorology is just crap when you try to apply it to Eberron. (It's a place where air can spontaneously become sentient and move around as a sentient being! Come on!) Also, your fanonical explanation of the difference between arcane magic, divine magic and psionics is sort of entertaining but I fail to see what point it proves, especially since you have no actual backing for what you say as coming from the game text.
AkumaDaimyo 06-16-07, 07:19 PM	I never knew why asian people find the word Oriental offensive. I just know that it IS offensive to them so I try to avoid that use of the word. I ma be a jerk as you can easily see in some other threads but I at least avoid any terms that can be offensive to people of other races. I don't really have a problem with the idea of a asian continent in the world of Eberron but I don't think it would be purely asian. It would probably have elments of other places there. Plus the way Eberron is it really doesnt need a whole continent for asian content. Asian ideas, classes and weapons can be found in lots of places and races. Want ninja? House Phiarlan has them as does the Dhaakani empire, so goblin ninja's sound doable. There is a warforged ninja too called Guile. Samurai are found amongst the dwarves or anyone else who instead of serving a country serves a individual. So they could be found anywhere. Monks can be found in lots of places too and could serve anything from the Silver FLame to the Dragon Below. Shugenja and Wu Jen seem a little more rare but they are out there. Sohei are warrior monk/priest types so they could be fighting alongside clerics or Paladins I think. But there are other continents in Eberron besides Xen Drik and Sarlona. So is it impossible to belive that there might eventually be a more asian style continent?
ArcTan 06-16-07, 07:23 PM	Well, Real World Religions are easier to work in the background. Even though I have a handbook to construct a "bogus religion," it wouldn't have the philosophic impact like the real world oriental religions. To make a "bogus oriental religion" seem real, I'll have to read the Sword World RPG [I believe]. And I don't speak Japanese. But "bogus Occidental religions" like the Silver Flame and the Sovereign Host are okay? You don't feel the need to rip out the Church of the Silver Flame and replace it with Roman Catholicism in order to have more "impact"? To make an Eberron Hinduism work I can set up the Soveriegn Host and the Dark Six; and erase the boundries between them. i.e. Dol Arrah would be seen as a Conqueror's God by the Conquered, and a Heroic God by the Conquerers. His cult would be like the Silver Flame's: three different ones --- one where he is seen as a vengeful deity, one where he is seen as heroic, and another seeing him as something else. Plus the "Pantheon" would include some native deities (Shiva is one of the oldest deities in Hinduism, dating back from the Harappan Culture). Eberron Hinduism would teach reincarnation. Therefore, while Warforged is seen a certain way in Khorvaire (as their own beings with warforged souls), Kharakans would see the same Warforged as living beings with souls who lived as humans before. You could even have a sect of Kharakans who have a Minbari view of their souls (i.e. take a human soul and put it into a warforged, and the whole human stock is made weaker). While interesting, I fail to see what makes this reinterpretation particularly Hindu. The reincarnation, I guess. And the incongruous presence of Shiva, certainly. (Sure, Shiva is a very old god *in real life*. What does this have to do with your fantasy civilization? Should I add Wotan to the Sovereign Host in Khorvaire just to make it feel more authentically "Occidental"?) After a while, Buddhism would arise. But still be circular: teaching reincarnation and the evolution of souls. Khorvarians would believe that Souls live one life, and a possible ressurection; while Kharakans believe in the reincarnation. What makes one nation Oriental and another Occidental is the contrast in the philosophic thought process. The Occidental Khorvarians and most of Sarlona think linearly. The Oriental Kharakans think circularly. Yeah, see? This crap. Maybe it shouldn't, but this crap ticks me off to an enormous, raging degree. But I'm not one for using "Bogus Religions." If it's a religion for an RPG, I say take the time to make it authentic. If it's not done authentically, then use a real world religion or take ideas from a real world religion to authenticate it. There is no shame in that. Elton. What do you mean by "authentic"? A religion can easily incorporate real, serious thinking about what real religions were like and incorporate many ideas from real religions without being a ripoff of a real religion that's clearly supposed to play exactly the same stereotypical cultural role as that religion. In real life, there was nothing "inevitable" about Buddhism arising from Hinduism, and you can imagine things turning out differently. You can imagine what would've happened if Christianity had spread to India and never taken root in Europe. You can imagine a lot of those things, and following those trails all the way out to "What would the gods be like in an imaginary world that never existed at all?" is the essence of interesting fantasy. "Let's put India in Eberron so we can have Buddhism!" is the essence of crap fantasy.
ArcTan 06-16-07, 07:25 PM	For those who think its foolish to simulate Eberron as a real planet, think on this: http://curriculum.calstatela.edu/courses/builders/lessons/less/les3/Vles3.html Weather is complex, arising from interactions between oceans, air, land, and solar heat. excerpt: "On a day to day level we talk about weather, and weather happens in the atmosphere. Different atmospheric layers have different temperatures, and temperature changes lead to winds. Winds pick up dust and moisture and move heat about from place to place. Water evaporates, rain falls. The rotation of the planet affects wind and ocean movements. "We call long term weather trends climate. For example, on earth the climate in the arctic is different from the climate in Hawaii. Although weather changes from day to day, the fluctuations stay within predictable ranges. Life forms adapt to the climates that they live in. The climates that you have on your world will influence the kinds of life forms that you can have there." :) Yes. And the history of our planet and the evolution of life is, in fact, so complex that it's utter foolishness to claim that we "know" what would happen if Australia didn't exist, or to "know" that therefore life couldn't develop because nothing would "soak up" Class V hurricanes. It's foolish to try to make bold statements about how the climate has to be in a fantasy world precisely because weather is so important, and so complex, and influenced by so many factors.
ArcTan 06-16-07, 07:27 PM	But there are other continents in Eberron besides Xen Drik and Sarlona. So is it impossible to belive that there might eventually be a more asian style continent? I find it offensive to say that "Asian-style" is a cohesive, unitary thing and that having a "more Asian-style" continent is like having a larger continent or a colder continent. I find the whole idea that "Asian-ness" is this singular thing that you can turn up the dial or or turn down the dial on really, really annoying. I would find it just as annoying if, say, "Roman-style" were a meme, and there as this move to add "Roman-style" continents to various fantasy games where they didn't belong and to publish "Roman-style" flavor all in one book and to specifically make "Roman-looking" characters who spoke a Latin-like language and used "Roman-style" weapons and ate "Roman-style" food. I would think that was equally stupid. I wouldn't be as offended, of course, because *people don't actually do that with ancient Rome* all that much, while people do *this* ALL THE DAMN TIME.
gensuke626 06-16-07, 07:52 PM	Ok...I have to say 2 things. Sir Elton, you've put alot of thought into your game. Congratulations, you're making a world just like you want to. But, I have to throw my voice in with the nay-sayers. You want your world to have realistic weather patterns, that's fine. My world doesn't need it. That's just more book keeping that I don't need to do. You want asian influences in your game? That, just like a cat, is fine too. I enjoy my Eberron without it. Really, I'm only replying because I read your first couple of posts and found some of your comments to be a bit off putting. For Example, what is up with this? Becareful, the girls don't wear shirts and they don't wear brassieres. Brassieres were invented, but discarded beause they were incredibly uncomfortable. I don't understand why we would need to be careful. Is there some sort of immorality behind going topless? Are the people of Eberron such fanatical or savage people that they would go crazy over seeing exposed breasts? Or do you think We're all 6 and still think girls are Icky? Also, your version of Japan is currently set in the warring states period...I would ask why, but I have to say, I am actually offended by your treatment of the Japan equivalent. The fact that I am of Japanese descent doesn't help you, I'm sure, but I read that section and can't help but feel like you sort of blew the entire area off. You set it in a period that you feel comfortable describing in a few sentences, set the classes that appear there then move on. Heck, you even say that the Elves have colonies there and say that you want Other People to decide that for you! Here, I have a good reason for you! The People of the Rising son practice some crazy wicked form of Ancestor Worship that the Areni hate so, the Areni are both trying to convert and destroy the nation! Look at that Entry! You list the religions even. You don't even say who's in power, what any struggles are, or why these people even exist. Heck, taken from what you wrote, I can safely assume that the Kingdom of the rising sun is a nation of scholar-warriors who are simply studying foreign religion and produce nothing except scholars and warriors. Ok, sorry for the rant, but this is a strong sticking point for me. I also have to mention that part of this post is borne out of a slight dislike for your offhanded comments. Alot of what you say gives me a very strong "I am Smarter than you!" vibe, and if you think it doesn't, try going back and reading what you've written about Class V Hurricanes (Which, By the Way, don't necessarily ever occur in Eberron... Sir Elton, I suggest that you go back to the drawing board and come up with a much better thought out idea. Here are the points you need to work on: Political Structure Arts and Sciences General Attitudes Hobbies and Entertainment Industry I'd also at least rename the religions. I'm not worried about any sort of real/fantasy overlap debate, but to be honest, When someone tells me that a certain religion exists in their world I have 2 reactions that go off. 1 "Wow...that's kinda...Lame. I mean, you couldn't have thought up your own religion and asked up to suspend our disbelief?" and 2 "Why do you want that religion anyway? I mean...you're not some religious fanatic are you?"
ArcTan 06-16-07, 08:44 PM	It's incredibly lame. I might be a little more forgiving if he actually *had* put "a lot of work" into it, but he clearly hasn't. This is just Oriental Adventures with the serial numbers filed off and a few "Oh, by the way, there are Aundairians here" toss-off references. No, I'm sorry, taking a capsule summary of real-life India from a history book and plopping it in your game earns you zero points for creativity or imagination. Especially when you then make denigrating comments about "bogus" fantasy worlds and fantasy religions because they, y'know, *make things up*, which is what fantasy is supposed to be about. Especially when this random plopping really seems to be thoughtless (okay, given that Khorvaire and Sarlona are in many ways wildly different from the way the rest of the world was in the real Japanese Warring States period, how does that affect our imaginary Japan? Apparently *not at all*) and he seems fixated on superficialities. (Hey, topless girls! *That's* the most important thing to mention about ancient India! Woohoo!) I'm amazed we're still hung up on the whole weather thing, when the obvious solution for "There's not enough land!" whiners is to just assume what a lot of other people assume and that all the numbers in the ECS are too small. Which makes sense *anyway*, because otherwise you've got absurdly small population figures for less-absurdly small countries that are supposed to be as advanced as Renaissance Europe but lack the territory and growth rates to support it. It's certainly less of a blatant deviation from the spirit of the ECS than plopping an unaltered India, China and Japan off in the eastern sea somewhere. And I'm not a meteorologist or even close to it, but since I doubt Sir Elton is either, I do feel confident in saying that he seems to be randomly and stupidly assuming that the only thing that changes when you have less land on a planet is that the storms don't "run out of energy" by crossing over landmasses, when, as far as I know, landmasses are what *cause* storms to occur in the first place. (That is, the presence of land gives air a place to heat up or cool down more dramatically than the water, since water is a better conductor of heat and will have a more uniform distribution of heat than land. I'm not a climatologist, but it seems to me a planet with more ocean and more land would actually have *less* dramatic movements of air across the globe that cause storm cycles, since storm cycles tend to be defined by coastlines.) If Sir Elton is a climatologist, I apologize, of course. I do know, though, that he isn't any kind of professional historian or sociologist, just based on his talk on this thread.
gensuke626 06-16-07, 08:49 PM	Psst! Arctan! I said he put alot of thought, not alot of work. Minor difference, but let's just say that *I* put alot of thought into dating and picking up cute girls...I'm still single!;)
AkumaDaimyo 06-16-07, 09:21 PM	I find it offensive to say that "Asian-style" is a cohesive, unitary thing and that having a "more Asian-style" continent is like having a larger continent or a colder continent. I find the whole idea that "Asian-ness" is this singular thing that you can turn up the dial or or turn down the dial on really, really annoying. I would find it just as annoying if, say, "Roman-style" were a meme, and there as this move to add "Roman-style" continents to various fantasy games where they didn't belong and to publish "Roman-style" flavor all in one book and to specifically make "Roman-looking" characters who spoke a Latin-like language and used "Roman-style" weapons and ate "Roman-style" food. I would think that was equally stupid. I wouldn't be as offended, of course, because *people don't actually do that with ancient Rome* all that much, while people do *this* ALL THE DAMN TIME. I find it offensive that you take offense to practically everything. :P And actually it kinda IS something you can turn the dial up or down on. Asian americans for example could ethier act fairly cultural for example or might act like everyday Americans. For example they could speak Japanese, dress in mostly Japanese style fashions, hairstyles and avoid most phyiscal contact and follow, say Budhism, OR they could be the sterotypical american who watches football, drinks beers and is rather opinionated. I'm Scotish for example but I don't display any Scotishness. I don't wear a kilt or display my heritage, BUT I could, so I say I could indeed turn the dial up. A Roman could too turn the "Dial". He could walk around in his toga or whatever and blather on about how great Rome is or he might dress a little more subtly and not let everyone know he's Roman right away. Not everyone in Rome was Roman you know. By "a more asian continent" I mean one in which the people dress in a more asian style, have more a of asian philosophy, the architexture is more asian, ect. Eberron has asian elements mixed in but nothing that just stands out. I do agree however that it doesn't really seem to fit to make any one culture or place specifically one culture but Keith Baker did say "If it fits in D&D it could have a place in Eberron.' Though granted some things are a streach to fit into Eberron.
ArcTan 06-16-07, 10:25 PM	I find it offensive that you take offense to practically everything. :P And actually it kinda IS something you can turn the dial up or down on. Asian americans for example could ethier act fairly cultural for example or might act like everyday Americans. For example they could speak Japanese, dress in mostly Japanese style fashions, hairstyles and avoid most phyiscal contact and follow, say Budhism, OR they could be the sterotypical american who watches football, drinks beers and is rather opinionated. I'm Scotish for example but I don't display any Scotishness. I don't wear a kilt or display my heritage, BUT I could, so I say I could indeed turn the dial up. A Roman could too turn the "Dial". He could walk around in his toga or whatever and blather on about how great Rome is or he might dress a little more subtly and not let everyone know he's Roman right away. Not everyone in Rome was Roman you know. *sigh* And you would be annoyed, wouldn't you, if every time someone wanted to play a Scottish character in a game he had to have the kilt *and* the beard *and* the bagpipes *and* the haggis *and* the burly frame and outgoing attitude, right? And if someone said "You know, Eberron isn't Scottish enough, let's create an island chain here and make part of it the Eberron Scotland!" It would be even more annoying if the whole history of the "non-Scottish" world was based on defining how non-Scots and Scots were the two basic kinds of people who saw the world in two distinct ways, and non-Scots were more successful at war and science and engineering than Scots because they thought in a "linear, scientific, non-Scottish way" while Scottish people were *interesting* because of their impractical but cool and mystical inherently "Scottish" worldview. *That's* what I'm talking about. If totally *random* things got people to say "Well, you're Scottish" all the time as though it meant anything beyond where you're from. (It's that Scottish temper/Scottish reticence. It's that Scottish generosity/Scottish stinginess. It's that Scottish stoicism/Scottish lust for life. It's that Scottish piety/Scottish skepticism.) By "a more asian continent" I mean one in which the people dress in a more asian style, have more a of asian philosophy, the architexture is more asian, ect. Eberron has asian elements mixed in but nothing that just stands out. I do agree however that it doesn't really seem to fit to make any one culture or place specifically one culture but Keith Baker did say "If it fits in D&D it could have a place in Eberron.' Though granted some things are a streach to fit into Eberron. There isn't any one thing called an "Asian style". There isn't any one thing called an "Asian philosophy". There isn't any one thing called "Asian architecture". You can have some things that might be called "Asian architecture" without having any "Asian philosophy" at all. You can have some things that might be called "Asian philosophy" without having any "Asian cuisine" at all. And so on. No one says that Khorvaire is supposed to unilaterally be the "European" continent and therefore everything on it is supposed to be "more European". (And if they do, I'll yell at them just as much.) I hate the idea that the "Asian" continent is its own special continent that's separate from everything else, and that everything in it has to play out just like (you think) everything played out in the "real" Asia, whereas the "Western" continent actually gets to be creative and mix things up and be *interesting*. I hate the idea that to make something more Asian you always have to make it less European, and that it's impossible to be both or not be either one or that those categories make *any sense at all*. (The whole idea that I should think "Eastern" and "Western" are important categories is a problem. The whole idea that completely imaginary cultures from a completely different world still have to get shoehorned into those labels is a problem.) Whenever someone lumps everything into one big "Asian" or "Oriental" pot, and ladles it on thick for the one group he wants to call "Oriental" and withholds it all from the one group he wants to call "Occidental", I find that offensive. If nothing else because it's *dumb* and it's been done a million times before.
AkumaDaimyo 06-17-07, 12:08 AM	] First off don't sigh at me laddie or I'll kick your bahokey all over this board.:P It would be even more annoying if the whole history of the "non-Scottish" world was based on defining how non-Scots and Scots were the two basic kinds of people who saw the world in two distinct ways, and non-Scots were more successful at war and science and engineering than Scots because they thought in a "linear, scientific, non-Scottish way" while Scottish people were *interesting* because of their impractical but cool and mystical inherently "Scottish" worldview. Considering that fedual Japan didn't have contact with the rest of the world for a while and fell behind? Deal with it. They WERE indeed less sucessful at war than say the US because they didn't have guns and other modern technology for quite a while. *That's* what I'm talking about. If totally *random* things got people to say "Well, you're Scottish" all the time as though it meant anything beyond where you're from. (It's that Scottish temper/Scottish reticence. It's that Scottish generosity/Scottish stinginess. It's that Scottish stoicism/Scottish lust for life. It's that Scottish piety/Scottish skepticism.) You obviously know little about cultures other than your own then. Being Scottish actually DOES have connotations to it if your very in tune with your culture. As does being Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, Hindu, Chinese, ect. If your NOT however very in tune with your culture then it means nothing. But actually Traditional Japanese DO have things that give meaning to "Well your Japanese." There isn't any one thing called an "Asian style". There isn't any one thing called an "Asian philosophy". There isn't any one thing called "Asian architecture". You can have some things that might be called "Asian architecture" without having any "Asian philosophy" at all. You can have some things that might be called "Asian philosophy" without having any "Asian cuisine" at all. And so on. Wrong. There isn't just any ONE thing called asian philosophy no, there are more than one. Buddhism for one, Shinto, Taoism, Zen? Those are all very asian philosophies in origin. There is indeed asian architexture but it wouldnt be universal so much. Chinese and Japanese architexture is pretty similar but not exactly the same for example. No one says that Khorvaire is supposed to unilaterally be the "European" continent and therefore everything on it is supposed to be "more European". (And if they do, I'll yell at them just as much.) I hate the idea that the "Asian" continent is its own special continent that's separate from everything else, and that everything in it has to play out just like (you think) everything played out in the "real" Asia, whereas the "Western" continent actually gets to be creative and mix things up and be *interesting*. I hate the idea that to make something more Asian you always have to make it less European, and that it's impossible to be both or not be either one or that those categories make *any sense at all*. (The whole idea that I should think "Eastern" and "Western" are important categories is a problem. The whole idea that completely imaginary cultures from a completely different world still have to get shoehorned into those labels is a problem.) Uh but you DO have to make something more Asian and less European to be MORE Asian. That's kinda WHY it's called Asian. Because it's from Asia and doesnt really fit into a European point of view, relgion, architexture, ect. For Eberron however I do agree that you don't need a asian style continent at all. Eberron mixes in aspects of various real world cultures and then takes aspects of them and puts them into cultures present in Eberron so they could be found basically anywhere instead of all in just one place that is deemed to be "the asian continent". Though Xen Drik strikes me as "that exotic continent". It was like anything nonhuman that was new and introduced in the races of books is from Xen Drik. Catfolk? Xen Drik. Raptorians? Xen Drik. Goliath? Xen Drik. Incarnum? Near Xen Drik.
ArcTan 06-17-07, 01:13 AM	Considering that fedual Japan didn't have contact with the rest of the world for a while and fell behind? Deal with it. They WERE indeed less sucessful at war than say the US because they didn't have guns and other modern technology for quite a while. There are a lot of reasons for that. Saying that these reasons have to do with Japan being "Oriental" in its thinking is a huge cop-out that doesn't really say anything -- but it's what scholars did for generations. You obviously know little about cultures other than your own then. Being Scottish actually DOES have connotations to it if your very in tune with your culture. As does being Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, Hindu, Chinese, ect. If your NOT however very in tune with your culture then it means nothing. But actually Traditional Japanese DO have things that give meaning to "Well your Japanese." Uh huh. The bigger the group gets, the less meaningful this gets. It becomes nothing but a kind of pernicious blindness when you apply it to half the world. ("Chinese, Indian and Japanese people are all 'Oriental', therefore they're not like us 'Occidentals'".) Even when you try to boil it down to something super-specific ("This is what it means to be a Jewish guy from the Upper East Side living in Alphabet City in the early 1990s") you're still dealing in stereotypes, and stereotypes are the doorway to prejudice. By the way, way to sneak in a subtle ad hominem with the subtle way of asking me if I'm "in tune with my culture". My culture is fine, thanks. My culture also doesn't fit into neat little boxes that make me act or think exactly the way some Americans or some Chinese people think all Americans or all Chinese people think everyone "like me" thinks or acts. Moreover, my being "in tune" with my culture consists of having studied the history of my culture and others' enough to know that most of the things people spout off as universal truths about culture are highly mutable by time and place and often twisted around for limited social ends, and are rarely as universal as all that. Wrong. There isn't just any ONE thing called asian philosophy no, there are more than one. Buddhism for one, Shinto, Taoism, Zen? Those are all very asian philosophies in origin. There is indeed asian architexture but it wouldnt be universal so much. Chinese and Japanese architexture is pretty similar but not exactly the same for example. Wow, spoken truly like someone who knows what he's talking about because he's seen pictures of pagodas on TV. Look, there are Asian philosophies in that there are philosophies from Asia. They certainly influenced each other because of their geographical proximity. To say, though, that they fit into one *category* called "Eastern philosophy" and to claim that this category has some intrinsic meaning -- that there's some basic, fundamental fact about "Eastern" philosophy like "circularity" that makes it all Eastern and therefore makes it all different from "Western" philosophy -- is a gross oversimplification. Uh but you DO have to make something more Asian and less European to be MORE Asian. That's kinda WHY it's called Asian. Because it's from Asia and doesnt really fit into a European point of view, relgion, architexture, ect. That's exactly what I mean. "European" isn't one thing. "Asian" isn't one thing. "European" and "Asian" are not opposites of each other. The constant expectation that they must be -- and importing this expectation where it has no reason to exist, in a fantasy world that's supposed to be divorced from the real world -- really bothers me. For Eberron however I do agree that you don't need a asian style continent at all. Eberron mixes in aspects of various real world cultures and then takes aspects of them and puts them into cultures present in Eberron so they could be found basically anywhere instead of all in just one place that is deemed to be "the asian continent". Though Xen Drik strikes me as "that exotic continent". It was like anything nonhuman that was new and introduced in the races of books is from Xen Drik. Catfolk? Xen Drik. Raptorians? Xen Drik. Goliath? Xen Drik. Incarnum? Near Xen Drik. Sure, but there are supposed to be exceptions to that, too. Most of that is really from lazier writers than the original creator (Keith Baker) and the better writers who've had more experience with Eberron. I try to avoid the random "Put it in Xen'drik" crap unless I know how it would be related to something that already exists in Xen'drik. (Goliaths? Maybe they go in Xen'drik if you want to import the flavor about their enmity for sophisticated Giant races. Otherwise, why not put them in the Shadow Marches somewhere?)
yrogerg 06-17-07, 10:17 AM	See, this is why I've taken to unilaterally rejecting anything Sir Elton proposes in his posts, sight unseen, and passionately arguing with others against those ideas, before I've actually bothered to read them. I adopted this policy after he posted to the Mature Boards asking if Eberron's multiple moons would affect a woman's menstral cycle. (Sir Elton is clearly not a biologist, either)
gensuke626 06-17-07, 04:54 PM	. . . Sir Elton asked if the moons... . . . Why would anyone want to know that? :confused:
eehamburg 06-18-07, 10:16 AM	Does anyone here realize that this is just a game and not real life? Relax people ... breathe and live and perhaps if you want to get stressed out and serious about things then look to real life because there is more there to be serious about than is required or even necessary of a game.
Alex_ 06-18-07, 11:08 AM	It's not the game they're discussing with such intensity. It's other things -mainly inaccurate and limiting/damaging stereotypes- that are manifesting in how people design/play their games.
ChaoticGood 06-20-07, 08:19 PM	Look, there are Asian philosophies in that there are philosophies from Asia. They certainly influenced each other because of their geographical proximity. To say, though, that they fit into one *category* called "Eastern philosophy" and to claim that this category has some intrinsic meaning -- that there's some basic, fundamental fact about "Eastern" philosophy like "circularity" that makes it all Eastern and therefore makes it all different from "Western" philosophy -- is a gross oversimplification. That's exactly what I mean. "European" isn't one thing. "Asian" isn't one thing. "European" and "Asian" are not opposites of each other. The constant expectation that they must be -- and importing this expectation where it has no reason to exist, in a fantasy world that's supposed to be divorced from the real world -- really bothers me. First point: "Asian" and "European" aren't opposites, but they are different. One could as easily say that they want a more "Meso-American" continent with more "Meso-American" philosophy... Those, too would be different from both Asian or European philosophies and religions. You don't find a lot of thought about "achieving enlightenment" or "meditation" in philosophies that originated west of the Gobi; nor do you find much mention of spending eternity in a pretty garden or a lake of fire when discussing religions that developed east of it. My point is, there are things that mark a philosophy or religion or cultural phenomenon as "Eastern" or Western," "American" or "European" or "Asian," "Chinese" or "Japanese" or "Vietnamese" or "Cambodian" or "Korean." We use these categories to make communication with one another less cumbersome, not to be insulting or condescending. Each of these categories has its own hallmarks, and is a subdivision of a larger philosophy. So there's nothing wrong with saying something is "Eastern" or "Asian," any more than there is something wrong with saying that something is "Western" or "American," as long as you appreciate that there are smaller categories within those divisions. Second point: Must all Oriental-themed characters carry katanas and revere their ancestors while sipping tea? Of course not. Nor must a Nordic-themed character wear a horned helmet, carry a battle-axe, ride around in a dragon-headed longship, or swill tankards of ale while praising Thor. But many characters will be played this way, because these are easily-recognized archetypes which convey the concept of one's character without a ream of backstory. That doesn't make it any less valid to play a shugenja's servant girl who dabbles in alchemy with exotic equipment from a mysterious Western land or a sea-born scholar who takes care to "plunder" the books and scrolls of the towns his father's band pillages. It's just more difficult to convey that concept to others. If you've seen the recent movie "Pathfinder" (terrible, by the way, but it illustrates the point), consider this: how much less backstory would have been necessary if the character had been an archetypal Native American warrior skilled with a bow and tomahawk? My point here is, the reason why most people make broad generalizations about a character's cultural theme isn't ignorance or racism or "Orientalism" or any of that... It's simple laziness, a desire to make the point quickly and get on with the game... which is also why most players are content to say, "OK, so it's raining today" instead of having a complete climatological model of a fictional planet.
AkumaDaimyo 06-20-07, 09:15 PM	It also seems there is a kneejerk reaction that anything deemed to be different is somehow a negative connotation. Asia vs Eurpoean IS different people. It's not necessarily negative. Think what it says about the Brelish in Five Nations. Different is just Different. Not bad or good. Just different. (Unless of course by different you mean he's different cause he's evil. :P )
gensuke626 06-20-07, 09:16 PM	My point here is, the reason why most people make broad generalizations about a character's cultural theme isn't ignorance or racism or "Orientalism" or any of that... It's simple laziness, a desire to make the point quickly and get on with the game... which is also why most players are content to say, "OK, so it's raining today" instead of having a complete climatological model of a fictional planet. I don't think of simplifying weather as laziness. Personally I use it as a storytelling tool. It sets the mood. I mean, sure I can say that the Owlbear attacks you on a bright sunny summer's day, but that's going to impact the story in a much different way than if the owlbear attacks you on an unusually foggy day. I suppose to one man, it might be laziness, but I also think that trying to figure out weather patterns and other things for a fictional planet is a bit foolish. To get anything right I'd need to take several classes in Meteorology, or make something up that may not make sense, neither of which I have time to do between work, school and making interesting adventures. However, I do concede that Sir Elton's proposal is lazily done, rather than ignorant. Well...No...It's still ignorant...Ignorance borne of laziness. Still...I think it's hilarious that he took it upon himself to warn us that the topless women in India might be Dangerous. Careful! It's cold today! Those things could put an eye out!
yrogerg 06-20-07, 09:21 PM	Still...I think it's hilarious that he took it upon himself to warn us that the topless women in India might be Dangerous. Careful! It's cold today! Those things could put an eye out! Well, it's a fair warning; after all, the women are doubly dangerous in Eberron, what with menstrual cycles and the moons and all. [/snark]
AkumaDaimyo 06-20-07, 09:21 PM	If they can put a eye out with what they've got then someone should warn them to beware of me! :-p Rawr. lol
AkumaDaimyo 06-20-07, 09:22 PM	Well, it's a fair warning; after all, the women are doubly dangerous in Eberron, what with menstrual cycles and the moons and all. [/snark] Why do you think all the other nations didn't want Mishan as ruler? :D
gensuke626 06-20-07, 09:35 PM	Why do you think all the other nations didn't want Mishan as ruler? :D I always figured it was because she wasn't pretty enough...:rolleye2: But really? That was the reason? Man...Eberron must be "The land of 10 Thousand Crimson Rivers" :yuck: /sarcasm
AkumaDaimyo 06-20-07, 09:37 PM	Ewww. Must also be the land of frustrated or overly paitent men. But I don't know how pretty Mishan was or wasn't.
gensuke626 06-20-07, 09:44 PM	Ewww. Must also be the land of frustrated or overly paitent men. But I don't know how pretty Mishan was or wasn't. I don't think the men are all that patient...I mean... The Half-Orcs, Half-Elves, Changelings and Shifters had to come from somewhere...right? ;)
ChaoticGood 06-20-07, 09:45 PM	I suppose to one man, it might be laziness, but I also think that trying to figure out weather patterns and other things for a fictional planet is a bit foolish. No worries; we're speaking the same language here. I'm not using the word "laziness" to be condescending, but rather as a matter of practicality. I meant that, for most DMs, complex climatological charts are too much work to be bothered with, and they aren't willing to put in all the extra effort involved for so little pay-off - just as most players would rather choose an archtype to start out, such as "the honorable samurai" or "the not-so-bright barbarian with an axe," rather than try to work an entirely new character from scratch. It's not because they are ignorant or racist or hate the Japanese or the Scandinavians. It's because they would rather make their point quickly and get on with the game than spend a lot of time and effort developing a character from scratch. Again, I'm not saying this in a negative way. My own current character is a skyship captain who started life as Mal Reynolds with a healthy helping of Jack Sparrow's personality... i.e., an archtypal dashing swashbuckler. I figured it was easier than trying to make something entirely new. In the course of the campaign, your character will grow and develop and become something entirely new, so why do all that work right up front? :)
gensuke626 06-20-07, 09:55 PM	Ahh...Now We're on the same wavelength, Chaotic Good. Yeah. I agree with that sentiment. Some of my best characters started off as jokes. Case in point Abel Kessler, who shall forever be my favored PC and personal DMPC started as a threat to a GM with "If you kill this character I'm going to bring in a character whose entrance will be to knock on on of the other PC's doors and say "Have you accepted the Blood of Vol into your life?"
ArcTan 06-21-07, 01:51 AM	First point: "Asian" and "European" aren't opposites, but they are different. One could as easily say that they want a more "Meso-American" continent with more "Meso-American" philosophy... Those, too would be different from both Asian or European philosophies and religions. You don't find a lot of thought about "achieving enlightenment" or "meditation" in philosophies that originated west of the Gobi; nor do you find much mention of spending eternity in a pretty garden or a lake of fire when discussing religions that developed east of it. Of course Asian and European are different. If one wanted to take the big basket of differences and make a game that was just about that, I wouldn't necessarily think the project was inherently damned from the get-go, though I might sigh and shake my head about it. One of the *best* projects along these lines is Ars Magica, which takes place in a fantastic version of real-world Europe and ties in the different "belief systems" of different parts of the world in a very high-fantasy way. It's essentialist, but it's fun and it does spend some time thinking about the *meaning* behind the stereotypes it's using when it's using them. I have a lot less time for stuff like Forgotten Realms' heavy-handed handling of different regions, where it really was "Here's a basketload of stereotypical traits, find a way to make mechanical sense of them". The problem being that Forgotten Realms *wasn't a real place*, so we couldn't use the *real* reasons Europeans had issues with Muslims from the Middle East to explain their different worldviews, we had to make up a bunch of crap that was ultimately ahistorical, out-of-context and dumb. The preface to WotC's Oriental Adventures admits that putting Kara-Tur in FR was a really dumb and ultimately not very successful way to try to include "Oriental" content in a game, and that Legend of the Five Rings was a million times more successful because it was fantasy done with "Oriental" sources *on their own terms* trying to organically draw high fantasy out of Asian myth the way Tolkienesque fantasy is drawn from northern European myth, without trying to live out a stereotype. FWIW, you're 100% wrong, by the way. The term "enlightenment" can be translated different ways, but Gnosticism in the Eastern Roman Empire was *very much* about "enlightenment" (the term "gnosis", from which it takes its name, means "knowledge"). Gnosticism itself has its origins in Greek mystery cults that were all about attaining a certain degree of knowledge or insight that fundamentally transformed you into a different class of human being (the Eleusinian Mysteries, etc.) Christianity is not free of this, nor is Judaism, nor is Islam. Do I need to bring up the fact that Christian monks were known for doing things like perching on flagpoles meditating all day? Mysticism of this kind, involving "meditation" or similar exercises to try to achieve "enlightenment", is a near-universal among human cultures. As far as Eastern religion, Pure Land Buddhism takes its name from the "pure land" paradise in the Western Heaven where believers were told they would go after death, in so doing being reunited with their loved ones and enjoying paradisiacal gardens and endless springs of clear water. It also talked about the various tortures the King of the Underworld inflicted upon unrighteous criminals after death. Fire didn't feature prominently, but hey, why split hairs? It's a huge misunderstanding to think that stories about the afterlife, and punishment and reward therein, are some kind of "crude" "Western" construct that didn't exist in Eastern religion. My point is, there are things that mark a philosophy or religion or cultural phenomenon as "Eastern" or Western," "American" or "European" or "Asian," "Chinese" or "Japanese" or "Vietnamese" or "Cambodian" or "Korean." We use these categories to make communication with one another less cumbersome, not to be insulting or condescending. Each of these categories has its own hallmarks, and is a subdivision of a larger philosophy. So there's nothing wrong with saying something is "Eastern" or "Asian," any more than there is something wrong with saying that something is "Western" or "American," as long as you appreciate that there are smaller categories within those divisions. And I don't have a problem with people saying that in a vague and general way to make communication easier. I do have a problem with people taking the so-called "divide" between East and West as a fundamental philosophical division between the "races", and making this their justification to doing terrible things to a campaign setting I like. Second point: Must all Oriental-themed characters carry katanas and revere their ancestors while sipping tea? Of course not. Nor must a Nordic-themed character wear a horned helmet, carry a battle-axe, ride around in a dragon-headed longship, or swill tankards of ale while praising Thor. But many characters will be played this way, because these are easily-recognized archetypes which convey the concept of one's character without a ream of backstory. That doesn't make it any less valid to play a shugenja's servant girl who dabbles in alchemy with exotic equipment from a mysterious Western land or a sea-born scholar who takes care to "plunder" the books and scrolls of the towns his father's band pillages. It's just more difficult to convey that concept to others. If you've seen the recent movie "Pathfinder" (terrible, by the way, but it illustrates the point), consider this: how much less backstory would have been necessary if the character had been an archetypal Native American warrior skilled with a bow and tomahawk? Some of us think that "simpler" and "easier-to-understand" characters aren't always a good thing. Eberron was designed to break a lot of these stupid D&D molds by making a world where the Elves weren't hippie nature lovers and the Orcs weren't psychotic bloodthirsty raiders and the Gnomes weren't cutesy comic relief. It may not have done the job perfectly, but it's there partly to *try* to do that job, and people who profess to be fans of it seem to not get this at all and want to return Eberron to being as cliched as it can be. Again, saying that the only way to play an "Asian" character in Eberron is to literally *create the continent of Asia* and make it identical to the stereotypical Asia of Orientalist culture in all respects is the *pinnacle* of the kind of stupid thinking I am ranting against. If you're not creative enough to play your "Asian" character concept without having the person literally come from a country called "China" and following a philosophy called "Confucianism" and wearing a conical straw hat, then Eberron really isn't the setting for you. And caring about this *particularly* and *especially* for Asian characters, again, gets my goat. Sir Elton, after all, didn't propose that people who were fans of French culture who wanted to play a Frankish Knight create the kingdom of France somewhere south of Aundair, where the French language is spoken and the Roman Catholic religion is practiced and people remember the reign of Charlemagne, the Holy Roman Emperor. There's a *reason* he didn't do this but that he feels the need to have the "real" Japan and Confucianism and Shinto and crap in order to "really" play an "Asian" character, and I want to get at that reason. My point here is, the reason why most people make broad generalizations about a character's cultural theme isn't ignorance or racism or "Orientalism" or any of that... It's simple laziness, a desire to make the point quickly and get on with the game... which is also why most players are content to say, "OK, so it's raining today" instead of having a complete climatological model of a fictional planet. "Laziness", when applied broadly and consistently, *is* prejudice. That's all prejudice is -- "I'm too lazy to make a real judgment, so I'll pre-judge based on lazy stereotypes".
ArcTan 06-21-07, 01:53 AM	No worries; we're speaking the same language here. I'm not using the word "laziness" to be condescending, but rather as a matter of practicality. I meant that, for most DMs, complex climatological charts are too much work to be bothered with, and they aren't willing to put in all the extra effort involved for so little pay-off - just as most players would rather choose an archtype to start out, such as "the honorable samurai" or "the not-so-bright barbarian with an axe," rather than try to work an entirely new character from scratch. It's not because they are ignorant or racist or hate the Japanese or the Scandinavians. It's because they would rather make their point quickly and get on with the game than spend a lot of time and effort developing a character from scratch. Again, I'm not saying this in a negative way. My own current character is a skyship captain who started life as Mal Reynolds with a healthy helping of Jack Sparrow's personality... i.e., an archtypal dashing swashbuckler. I figured it was easier than trying to make something entirely new. In the course of the campaign, your character will grow and develop and become something entirely new, so why do all that work right up front? :) Do you think, then, that it is appropriate for a "lazy" player who wants to play, say, an American cowboy, but doesn't want to take the time to try to adapt this for the written Eberron setting, to propose creating the United States of America as a separate continent somewhere to the west of Khorvaire, and importing the 1800s Wild West into Eberron wholesale, with a few references to how Baptist and Methodist Americans interact with the Church of the Silver Flame and how the Sioux tribe of Indians trade with the nation of Karrnath? Sir Elton, as noted, has put a ton of effort into posting and re-posting this stupid concept over and over again, so it's not *simple* "laziness" we're talking about here. It's laziness of a far different kind -- a simple unwillingness to bend certain preconceptions he has. And that's what bothers me, and bothers me deeply -- because I see a lot of it everywhere.
Soltares 06-22-07, 03:33 PM	So is it ironic, or just sad, that the offensive stuff and personal attacks in this thread, all the belittlement and derision, is coming from the fragile precious flowers claiming to have been offended by the OP? Oh wait, it's just the internet. My bad. Continue chucking bottles and claiming to be victims.
ArcTan 06-22-07, 03:47 PM	So is it ironic, or just sad, that the offensive stuff and personal attacks in this thread, all the belittlement and derision, is coming from the fragile precious flowers claiming to have been offended by the OP? Oh wait, it's just the internet. My bad. Continue chucking bottles and claiming to be victims. I'm not claiming to be a "victim" of anything in a personal sense. One can be offended without being "insulted" or having one's "feelings hurt" in the sense you mean. Sir Elton didn't insult or attack me -- he just did something really stupid and dumb that I think deserves being called out as stupid and dumb. If you think that's cruel or unwarranted, whatever. Personally I think there's a difference between attacking someone's ideas and attacking the person, and if an idea is particularly bad and dumb it deserves ridicule and abuse. I would say the same if Sir Elton's idea were offensive, bad and dumb for other reasons, like being obnoxiously sexist. (Hey, come to think of it, it *was*. Woo hoo, topless girls in India! It's a party!) The RPG market, along with the fantasy genre in general, has been mired in a cesspool of crappy, stupid, ugly, bad stuff for decades and is only now pulling itself out, and can only continue to pull itself out if those fantasy geeks who dislike the stupid, sexist, racist, idiot cliches of fantasy speak out about it when people start trying to push it backwards. (Ever see RPGNet's review of FATAL? Those people were doing God's work, man.)
Alex_ 06-22-07, 04:04 PM	I don't see the irony or sadness. Trying to drag an blatantly Asian continent into a setting simply because you want to play an "Asian themed character" is a lazy and somewhat close-minded thing to to do. Arctan's examples make sense. If you had a layer that wanted to play something like a French Muskateer, in a setting that didn't have France, would you literally create France, with similar language religion, culture, and history simply to justify his character? What if thy wanted to play a Zuluu like character. Would you suddenly invent Sub-Saharan Africa with a people called the Zoloo, with the near exact same beliefs, social institutions, and everything else just to justify it? What if I want to wear a fuzzy hat, drink Vodka, and call people comrade. Do we need an equivalent of Russia in the setting? More than likely not. Why is it that nearly every setting has to have something that we can distinctly look to, point at, and identify specifically as Chinese or a Japanese, even when they have no clearly defined Polish, Russians, Norwegians, or Egyptians? What I see is contradiction, hypocrisy, and general literary/creative laziness being pointed out for what it is. If it offends someone, that's just another reason amongst many why it's already a bad idea.
gensuke626 06-22-07, 08:05 PM	I'd like to take the time to point out to Arctan, that generally speaking, you've misunderstood ChaoticGood's posts. The conclusion that both Chaotic Good and I came to were that many people are lazy, and thus draw inspiration for readily available and easily idtentifiable sources. It turned into a bit of a tangent and I think that Chaoticgood's post on laziness in gaming was not meant to support Sir Elton, but rather to explain an Idea that I had misunderstood. So. At this time I have one request of everyone involved. Let's take the points of discussion we want to keep and port them to new threads, and let this one die. Please. As they say in 4chan, SAGE!