Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Label 10-04-07, 07:56 PM	First, I'll start by posting a link to Edymnion's thread Commoners make plenty of money (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=719384) where he gave a good example that commoners can live on a farm without being hungry slums. Here I'll try to demonstrate that a commoner can live in Sharn, and that prices like 12cp for a street vendor meal is affordable to commoners. I just hate when people say that commoners can't buy anything and that only adventurers can afford to live in those fantasy worlds. For this demostration we'll use this lvl 1 Commoner: All his ability modifiers are +0 He has either a maxed Craft or Profession skill He has Skill Focus in this maxed skill. He's from Breland, so he has +1 on his Profession check due to education(Five Nations) So he have +7 on his Craft check, or +8 on his Profession check. Let's take the poorer revenue so : +7. Let's now assume he takes 10 every week, so his check result is 17. This means that single guy have a weekly revenu of (17/2) 8gp and 5sp. We'll say that he works 5 days a week, 8 hours per day. So he gains 1.7gp/day or 2sp and 1cp per hour. That's for the revenue part. Let's take a look at the expanses. First of all, unless he doesn't need to (like a warforged), he have to eat. We'll use the prices in the PHB, that is 3sp per day for common meals. But since he can cook himself, let's use the Craft rules : this means it cost half the price in raw ingredients. So it's (3sp x 7) /2 = 1.05gp per week of food. Not bad. At this point, we have 8.5 - 1.05 = 7.45gp left, each week. So it's 29.8gp per month. That seems fair. Let's add some expanses. He needs a place to live. Let's say he rent a poor residence. The prices are listed as 1d4gp/month. Let's say he took a 2gp one. So he's now with 27.8gp left each month. Wow. He can have a lot of other expanses. He needs clothes, so let's say he spend each month the equivalent of 1gp (Artisan's clothes) for new clothes or clothes repairs. He may want to have entertainment. Let's say he goes to the Diamond Theater each week. That's 9cp for a ticket, so 3sp 6cp per month. He may also want to have at least one good dinner at Besimir's Folly so it's 35cp. He is single, with no childs. But he needs some carnal fun so... let's settle for 8cp per week in the Dragoneyes. He may have relatives in an other town, and keeps in touch by mail. Let's say he send a letter in Wroat each month. That's 4.73gp for a 473 miles courrier with House Orien. Let's say he's subscribed to the Sharn Inquisitive. That's 3gp a year, so 0,25gp per month. At this point he spent 7.01gp on clothes, entertainment, and mail. He has 20.79gp left. Not bad. He also has to pay his taxes. Let's settle for 15% (Cityscape suggest a range from 10 to 20). His annual revenue is 408gp, so his taxes are 61.2gp. This means he have to keep 5.1gp each month to pay his taxes. So he's now left with 15.69gp a month. Still nice. We can easily add more expanses, and go in more details. We can even say he's keeping some money to be able to pay his inscription at Mograve University. All of this means that, whether a commoner lives on his farm or is an employee in Sharn, he can live a decent life. Thanks for reading. Please feel free to comment, destroy or compliment about it. It's not perfect, but it gives an idea of a commoner life.
OctaviusIII 10-04-07, 11:08 PM	The Sharn threads go on! Seriously though, good work. I was wondering how this all worked itself out, and it is very nice. By the way, don't forget about proper tools! Those add an extra +2 to the check. If they're masterwork tools, they get a +4. My only issue with the system is that it isn't very adaptable to high incomes. Commoners and others working with their own hands are, at best, lower middle class. What about the more upper-crust types?
Papermonday 10-05-07, 03:41 AM	This might be a stupid question, but I suppose I'll give it a shot: Would it matter if the commoner is self-employed or working for someone?
Label 10-05-07, 03:45 PM	Octavius : you are right, with proper tools that commoner can make 1 to 2gp more each week! Papermonday : sure, it matters a lot. I'll give it a try soon.
The Dreaming Duck 10-05-07, 05:20 PM	A few basic points here. This proves that it is possible for some commoners to make a decent living. In my opinion it does nothing to prove that most do. An "unskilled laborer or assistant" makes 1 sp/day. Within an industrial community, there will be a certain percentage of jobs that simply fall into this category. You can't have all master smiths with no one feeding the fire. You can't have all innkeepers and no barmaids. So just because someone has ranks in a Craft or Profession skill doesn't mean that they have an opportunity to use those skills to their full benefit. Just because I have the potential to make $90,000/year in a particular field doesn't mean I can find a job that's going to pay it. And if I have ranks in "Profession: Innkeeper", I'd like to see an explanation for how that generates income when you don't have an inn. Or how I make income as a "farmer" when I don't have a farm. Beyond that, it's just common sense that the system given in the PHB is a generalization. You can't just say "the income for all professions is based on a single die roll." Just look at page 105 of the DMG: Clerk vs Cook vs Barrister. Presumably, these folks all have Profession ranks in their prospective fields, but they make different amounts. By the DMG, a cook makes 1 sp/day, and Sharn: CoT gives prices for meals in different levels of the city. Having a high level of cooking skill may allow you to get a job at a restaurant that pays more. If you're working at the Oaks, you should be able to make a lot as a cook. But if you're working at the Commons, it shouldn't matter if you hit a 30 on your Profession (Cook) check. You're overqualified to work at the Commons - but they aren't going to raise the prices on their menu because of that, so you won't be making more money. For PCs, the PHB system is simple and easy; assuming it applies to all NPCs is a flawed concept that fails to take into account the circumstances of their lives. So, an actual innkeeper, a master smith, a farm owner, a barrister, a shop owner - THESE people make a decent living, yes. But the barmaid, the forgeman, the farmhand, the shop clerk - these are the people making 1 sp/day.
The Dreaming Duck 10-05-07, 05:50 PM	Thinking about this further, I think there's a basic fallacy here: that rules designed for PCs govern NPCs as well. The rule stating that you make half your Profession check in gp are in the Player's Handbook. As noted above, it's an incredibly illogical way to run an economic system; assuming you have a job, does your salary get adjusted on a weekly basis if you suddenly do well or somehow screw up? Sure, you MIGHT "take ten" - but you don't have an option to do otherwise, do you? Meanwhile, there is a system in place to determine the income of NPCs: Page 105 of the Dungeon Master's Guide. A common laborer makes 1 sp/day, like an unskilled PC. But a craftsperson, as a general rule, makes 3 sp/day. Following the same logic I gave above, I'd expect a DM to modify this based on circumstance: the cook at the Oaks will make more than the cook at the Commons. But this is the baseline salary for a professional in this field. It doesn't say "If the players want to hire a cook, determine the NPC's skills, have the NPC make a skill check, use half the result, and divide it by seven to determine the daily rate." Furthermore, 3 sp/day isn't that bad. That's 2 gp/week. You can buy a crappy house in Sharn for as little as 100 gp - so, after expenses, 3-5 years of labor. An "average" house in Sharn will run a minimum of 1,500 gp, but remember that Sharn is the NYC of Eberron... so the fact that you might have to take out a 30-year mortgage is hardly surprising.
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 10-06-07, 04:57 AM	I agree with the Dreaming Duck - these rules are better suited for PC's or perhaps enterprising NPC's. Further, calculating the expanses of a single individual without any family is hardly useful. There are his children, his spouse, perhaps his parents to take care of. In the "commoner makes a lot of money thread", even the children are calculated in to make money according to PHB rules, which, frankly, is a bit stupid. Technically, a three-year-old could take 10 on a craft check, deduct maybe -4 for his low ability score and missing tools, earn 3 GP per week, buy his own longsword after 5 weeks, start hacking away at the bad guys, and employ a barrister 3 days a week to handle the lawsuits. But seriously... the rules aren't made for this kind of... technicalities. On the other end, expenses shouldn't be calculated with the PHB, which adresses the living costs of travelling adventurers. In the DMG, p. 130, there are more generalized costs for a more predictable lifestyle. These are made for player's, too, and reflect equipment upkeep ("My Full Plate needs some fixing.") and other expenses that won't really bother the "common man". However, they include housing and taxes, which the PHB doesn't really give us numbers on. There, we can read: "Common laborers earn about 3 gp per month, so they usually have to be self-sufficient just to survive." And that's something to be taken into account: Before the heavily industrialized age we live in, where buying something new is oftentimes cheaper than repairing something old, it was reasonable to have some animals, crops etc. of your own, fix things with your own hands and so on. A commoner won't live in an inn and have his meals prepared and served by others, he will live in a rented, bought or self-built shack and cook his meals himself (or make his wife do it). Think of a modern-day craftsman living in a hotel the whole year... hardly reasonable.
OctaviusIII 10-06-07, 06:42 AM	A commoner won't live in an inn and have his meals prepared and served by others, he will live in a rented, bought or self-built shack and cook his meals himself (or make his wife do it). Think of a modern-day craftsman living in a hotel the whole year... hardly reasonable. I suppose that this is the answer to my second question, about what happens when you work for someone. Personally, I don't like having one set of rules for the PCs and one for the NPCs aside from levels and action points. However, I do think that there is a fundamental difference between the two groups: the former are motivated; the latter are not. The rules for making money make sense for a business owner but not for an employee. And, realistically, how many people are business owners? I also think that this is a thoroughly abstracted way of doing the economy, and I think we can call the check result and the money earned as "normal business conditions": there is a market for the goods made or the services provided, and the costs of materials and the like are minimal. The problem is that there is far more to a business than a profession check. The commoner needs diplomacy, knowledge, initiative and the ability to start a business. The Sharn resident described, by the way, can live in a poor residence, he could barely afford an average residence and he definitely could not afford the high class. It feels like it's the wages for hired help that are iffy, not the checks.
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 10-06-07, 07:21 AM	IPersonally, I don't like having one set of rules for the PCs and one for the NPCs aside from levels and action points. I share that opinion. But especially in Eberron, a lot of rules are practically pc only, such as 9th level magic. Others are strictly (by RAW) NPC only, such as creating Karrnath Zombies. Even the core rules give different values for NPC and PC equipment, for PC (elite) and NPC (typically non-elite) attributes and hit points. Most prestige classes give fluff descriptions for PC and NPC members. It's a class system (and I don't mean character classes), where the PC's stand out from the regular crowd. The game focusses on them, and thus, the rules focus on them. I'd find it much, much better if the rules were consistent for PC's and NPC's alike, such as increasing the money earnt with skills drastically according to the check modifier (now, a mediocre, untalented guy with a +2 check earns roughly as much as the talented, focussed wonderboy with +8 on his check, and even the world champion of swordmaking with +30 "only" earns four times as much as Mr. Lazy). But currently, they are not.
Edymnion 10-06-07, 04:11 PM	An "unskilled laborer or assistant" makes 1 sp/day. Within an industrial community, there will be a certain percentage of jobs that simply fall into this category. You can't have all master smiths with no one feeding the fire. You can't have all innkeepers and no barmaids. So just because someone has ranks in a Craft or Profession skill doesn't mean that they have an opportunity to use those skills to their full benefit. Just because I have the potential to make $90,000/year in a particular field doesn't mean I can find a job that's going to pay it. And if I have ranks in "Profession: Innkeeper", I'd like to see an explanation for how that generates income when you don't have an inn. Or how I make income as a "farmer" when I don't have a farm. For the blacksmith example, the person feeding the fire or holding the steel would be an apprentice. They might only be getting 1 sp a day, but they would also be receiving room and board from their master as part of the deal. As for the barmaid, again, 1 sp a day would be the base. Just like in real life, waiters make LESS than minimum wage, because of tips. When was the last time you went out to a resteraunt, ate your meal, and didn't leave a tip? Why would you leave a tip, if the waiter is already getting paid a fair day's wages for their service? Same goes for the barmaids. They make 1 sp a day for serving drinks. They would also get tips, but that wouldn't be officially part of their pay. So, an actual innkeeper, a master smith, a farm owner, a barrister, a shop owner - THESE people make a decent living, yes. But the barmaid, the forgeman, the farmhand, the shop clerk - these are the people making 1 sp/day.Which isn't much differant than the real world. Somebody working the counter at McDonald's isn't going to be able to afford rent, car payments, food, utilities, and everything else. Current minimum wage is what, $7 an hour? And most places like Walmart or McDonald's will try to keep you from being full time so that you don't get fulltime benefits like health insurance. So, lets assume 35 hours a week, at $7 an hour. Thats $245 a week, or roughly $12,750 a year, before taxes. Taxes take a third of your paycheck, so you're only taking home about $8,500 a year to pay your bills with. Thats roughly $700 a month. Basic rent is typically $500 a month. That leaves you $200 a month for things like gasoline, food, water, electricity, and God help you if you get sick or need to buy new clothes. So, yeah, D&D commoners with no work skills that do the crap work have a real hard time making ends meet. And real world "commoners" with no work skills that do crap work have a real hard time making ends meet too. Its why you have beggers in D&D, for the same reason you have beggers in real life. It takes a certain amount of money to have a home, heat, a car, etc. If you don't have the skills to make that money (aka, you went to school), then odds are you're either going to be on the street or living a very poor quality of life. And what happens in D&D when a farmer doesn't have a farm, or a blacksmith doesn't have a forge? Same thing that happens in the real world when the computer programmer doesn't have a computer. They either have enough money saved up to live off of until they can find a job in their field again, they learn new skills and change professions, or they get put out on the street.
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 10-06-07, 04:21 PM	Thats $245 a week, or roughly $12,750 a year, before taxes. Taxes take a third of your paycheck, so you're only taking home about $8,500 a year to pay your bills with. Seriously off-topic, but... ehm... do you really have to pay a third of your income in taxes in the U. S. when you only earn minimum wage!?
The Dreaming Duck 10-06-07, 04:56 PM	For the blacksmith example, the person feeding the fire or holding the steel would be an apprentice. They might only be getting 1 sp a day, but they would also be receiving room and board from their master as part of the deal. Wait wait wait wait. You're saying that anyone performing unskilled laborer for a craftsman is an apprentice who gets room and board? How's that factor into the amount that the SMITH makes? Now he's not just paying for his family, he's paying for everyone who works for him? In my opinion, the lesser laborer is just that... the lesser laborer. If I run a bookstore, the guy who stocks the shelves isn't my apprentice. He doesn't get room and board. He gets minimum wage. He MIGHT be an apprentice learning the trade in exchange for room and board, but if that's the case, he might not be getting paid at all. So, yeah, D&D commoners with no work skills that do the crap work have a real hard time making ends meet. And real world "commoners" with no work skills that do crap work have a real hard time making ends meet too. Umm... is anyone arguing this? Perhaps on the other thread, but I don't see it here. I've never claimed that people in Eberron somehow have it worse than people in the real world. On the contrary, that's EXACTLY my point - people in Eberron have it about the same as people in the real world. Someone working a minimum wage job can't eat out every night, can't buy a sportscar or fancy computer (our equivalent of magic items) or a nice house. And lots of people are stuck working minimum wage jobs. Sometimes this is because they lack the skills to do otherwise - but often it's because there's no opportunity in the field they want to be in. The classic example is the waitress/world-be actress. But there's lots of fields that you can't just walk into without getting experience at the bottom... and there's lots of minimum wage jobs that need to be filled. Lots of people working minimum wage jobs have the talent to do better - they just haven't had the opportunity. Its why you have beggers in D&D, for the same reason you have beggers in real life. It takes a certain amount of money to have a home, heat, a car, etc. If you don't have the skills to make that money (aka, you went to school), then odds are you're either going to be on the street or living a very poor quality of life. Again, I completely agree. The only place where we seem to disagree is that skill alone is an assurance of making money. I know lots of college gradutates who haven't been able to get jobs in their fields. So if you say that 95% of the people in Sharn are commoners, and all commoners have 4 ranks in a profession/craft, boosting feat, etc - I don't think that equates to every one of them having employment that takes full advantage of their skills and lets them make the maximum amount of gold their skills could earn. Again, a cook at the Commons is simply going to earn less than one at the Oaks... just like the cook at McDonalds is going to earn less that the one at the high-end steakhouse. You NEED more skill to get the job at the steak house - but you can still end up working at McDs even if you've got the talent to do better. And what happens in D&D when a farmer doesn't have a farm, or a blacksmith doesn't have a forge? You miss my point. I was talking about the fact that it's illogical to apply the PHB rules to every situation. The PHB rules simply say that you can make a Profession check in your down time to make cash. My point is that if you have Profession (farmer) and and you're spending a week in Sharn (and you don't own property in Sharn), I'd like to hear the logic behind your making a bunch of gold off of it. As far as I'm concerned, common sense should always take precedence over the rules. If you just saved Maza Thadian's life and she agrees to let you put your Profession: Cook skill to work at the Oaks, I'll multiply what you'd normally make by the PHB. If you're a goblin rogue cooking rats and selling them in Malleon's Gate, I'm probably going to set a cap on how much you can make, regardless of roll (though it could be amusing to say that people are coming from across Lower Dura to get your Darguun-fried rats). The PHB rules give a way for PCs to make cash during down time. They give a general sense of money in the world. Other books give other numbers to work with - the salaries in the DMG; the rates for Deneith services in Sharn; and so on. Obviously we all need to use what makes sense for us. But what makes sense to me is a world much like our own, where many people are stuck in minimum wage jobs even when they're overqualified, and where working for minimum wage is a challenge - even if not an impossible one.
wendigovegan 10-08-07, 12:29 AM	I more or less agree with you. The PHB rules apply to characters not commoners. Frankly there is no reason why this should be a problem. The PCs are supposed to be HEROIC not working night shift at Sivis Copy House. Making profession/craft checks should only be for important circumstances like creating an item for a quest or solving a riddle. Its the DMs job to decide what commoners are doing without falling back on die rolls and consulting pay charts. So what if the economic rules don't add up, that doesn't mean you can't play the game. It means you shouldn't be paying so much attention to the holes in the rules. Having said all that... I've always seen Eberron and specifically Sharn as an early (magical) industrial city. I think of the streets of Victorian London or the Slums of post-Civil War New York. Real world equivalents don't quite apply to commoners in this setting. There is no minimum wage, no 8 hour work day, the guild system has broken down thanks to House Cannith meaning that skilled labor is a dying art. Commoners ARE poor, crime is rampant, and the PCs are often stuck in the middle of it either trying to help those trampled under by the wheels of commerce or perhaps just trying to make enough gold to escape the desperation they see all around them.
Label 10-08-07, 01:58 AM	The PHB rules apply to characters not commoners. Unless I'm wrong, Commoner is a Non-Player-Character class. :P Just because they are not played by a player, this doesn't mean they don't use the same skill rules. Your game's BBEG is usually an NPC too and use the same game rules as the PCs. It's just that the campaign story usually focus more on the BBEG's evil plans than on Bob the commoner's day at work. I agree that in practice we should not have to bother with this. (Unless you want to play a game of commoners or use commoners as quest givers (http://www.blizzard.com/wow/images/screens/insider/020/comics/pennyarcade/ss010.jpg)) My goal was only to demonstrate that NPCs CAN live a decent life, and in this particular case, in Sharn, using the skills rules in the PHB, because they have class levels, skills and such so... I used them! Besides, it's also to explain something... Why the hell a lvl 1 PC freshly created can start the game with 6d4x10gp (depends on class of course) value of equipment?? Because he had a job! Or his parents had a job! Unless in your games the PCs pops-in the world, fully equipped with trail rations, theives tools, weapons and such, and with no more backstory than "i have 2 ranks in Profession (cook)". Edit : simple curiosity : do you ever used the Profession skill with one of you character?:P I did.
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 10-08-07, 03:26 AM	Label, how do you explain the difference between the income you calculated and the wages given in the DMG?
Ogiwan 10-08-07, 10:35 AM	But if you're working at the Commons, it shouldn't matter if you hit a 30 on your Profession (Cook) check. You're overqualified to work at the Commons - but they aren't going to raise the prices on their menu because of that, so you won't be making more money. When I was going to Temple, I would eat at a red lunch truck every day. It was run by a Greek guy named Ernie. Ernie Ortaso, I believe. Ernie makes damn good food, which is why I, and basically everybody else in the ROTC battalion, patronized him. So, if a cook scores big on a profession check regularly, he might not be able to charge more, but he'll get more, or regular, custom. PS. Ernie also had a SLAMMING hot daughter. Slender, blonde....oh yeah.
Label 10-08-07, 02:45 PM	Label, how do you explain the difference between the income you calculated and the wages given in the DMG? Hirelings are guys that you employ for your exclusive use. They follow you around, and you have to treat them well (But they are not like the followers which demand to be fed). The wages in the DMG are for long-term retinue, and they say that if you hire them for short-term the wage may double or triple. They may also want an hazard pay, since they follow you around in dangerous places. And those prices does not include tools and materials. The Profession and Craft checks are for a week of work, implying that they where at their work place and got many clients during the week. IMO.
The Dreaming Duck 10-08-07, 06:29 PM	The wages in the DMG are for long-term retinue, and they say that if you hire them for short-term the wage may double or triple. Before going on, let's clarify that they define short-term as "just a day or two." In other words, they are interfering with the ability to hold a normal job for a short-shift opportunity. It's the same way temps in our world are considerably more expensive that regular employees. Those temps COULDN'T make that rate working a steady job; they're able to charge the higher rate because they show up when needed - and have the chance of making absolutely nothing if there's a dry spell. They may also want an hazard pay, since they follow you around in dangerous places. And those prices does not include tools and materials. Let me just see if I understand what you're saying: The DM lists the rate a hireling will charge for exclusive service to you - service in which he expects to get no other custom during that time. This rate is, by and large, considerably lower than he would make if he didn't work exclusively for you and instead worked for the general populace. How do you reconcile these things? If a hireling is assured a better rate of pay AND safer working conditions by not working with you and just taking ten for the week, how is it that you find ANY hirelings? As far as I see it, the hireling tables have to reflect a decent, typical pay rate for that form of employee - if anything, a rate sufficient to lure him away from a more stable job safe in the city. Furthermore, simply going back to the rules, if the PHB rules apply to everyone, how do you reconcile the different pay scale of the scribe and the cook as hirelings? If they could both make the same amount by not working for PCs and just making a Profession check, why would the lower-paying profession EVER choose employment at the poor salary instead of the check? And how is it that "Profession - Innkeeper" makes the same as "Profession - Barmaid"? The PHB check is a nice easy mechanic for PCs with downtime. But it's not designed to provide a realistic economic framework for the world at large. Beyond this, I go back to the issue of "How do you make a Profession - Farmer check if you don't have a farm?" You're talking about getting more money because you get more customers, and that will certainly happen - if you own the business (or are paid primarily by commission or tip). But if you work at McDonalds or stoke the forge, your salary is the same regardless of how many burgers go out the door. And the majority of the commoners will be in this sort of situation: working FOR someone who sees the majority of the profit from their work. On the plus side, they have the advantage of a steady paycheck; the fry chef doesn't get docked in pay because it was a slow week. But he also doesn't get double his paycheck when he does an incredible job on those fries: his salary is his salary, plain and simple. My goal was only to demonstrate that NPCs CAN live a decent life... Sure. But not all of them. Sharn is BASED on that idea. The existence of places like Lower Dura and the Cogs shows that the designers of Eberron believed that there were people so poor that they would have to live there. Likewise, there's people - commoners - who make enough to live in the higher levels of the city. My point is simply that skill ranks alone aren't always enough; opportunity is equally important. And in Sharn, you won't always get the opportunities you deserve. You may have the talents to cook at the Oaks, but their kitchen is fully staffed... and if you end up working at McDonald's, you won't make what you deserve.
The Dreaming Duck 10-08-07, 06:30 PM	Why the hell a lvl 1 PC freshly created can start the game with 6d4x10gp (depends on class of course) value of equipment?? Because he had a job! Or his parents had a job! Or because he inherited it. That's a point that's been raised. The middle-class and higher in the US are used to a society where it's feasible to just throw out old goods and buy new ones instead of fixing the old. Are you suggesting that your 1st-level fighter just went to the store and bought his sword and armor 5 minutes before the game started? Because in my campaign, that fighter will have served in the Last War, and he'll have his armor and weapons from the war. His chainmail belonged to his grandfather; it's battered, and at this point half of the rings have been replaced. His greatsword came as spoils of war; he was fighting with a pitchfork-spear, until he lifted the greatsword from the body of a fallen knight. There's lots of other possibilities. Sure, his father could have been a blacksmith and smithed the goods himself as he taught his son the trade. But the last thing I'd ever use as background is "Yeah, I just blew into town with 150 gp from my dad and bought all of this stuff." Beyond all this, I think it's clear that most PCs are assumed to have had jobs - or at least formative experiences that teach them the basics of their class, and during which they acquire the base gold and equipment. This is accounted for on page 109 of the PHB, where it notes how long it takes you to go from adulthood to 1st-level in your class. On average, it takes a human fighter 3.5 years to go from "adult" to "fighter"; in Eberron, I'd expect that time to be spent as a warrior serving in the Last War or with House Deneith. Using Sharn's rates, a 1st-level warrior in House Deneith will earn 294 gp in 3.5 years. Presumably the house takes a cut, and you have taxes, food, etc - though during active service, some or all of these expenses may be covered (though they may also have deducted his equipment from his pay). In any case, assuming the soldier was on active duty during that period between adulthood and ascending to PC class, it's fairly straightforward for his to earn that starting gold. And if he keeps working at that level, he could buy a +1 sword in 25 years; luckily, he has other opportunities. Meanwhile, a human cleric or wizard takes an average of 7 years to earn his 75 gp; as a hireling alchemist working 5 days a week, he could earn 1,680 gp in that same time. So he's got a job, and it's clearly a hard one - because four ranks in Craft (alchemy) could see him on the gravy train. This raises one last point about opportunity. There's no rules that set prerequisites for learning skills. But if D&D is anything like the real world, these presumably exist. Presumably, the alchemist gets paid more than the scribe because it's more difficult to master alchemy and there's fewer alchemists out there. Craft is a class skill for commoners, and there's no reason you couldn't make every commoner in the Cogs have 4 ranks of Craft (alchemy). But how do you EXPLAIN it? It's another case of which you put first, rules or common sense. For me, common sense holds that you can't get Craft (alchemy) unless your background provides a way to learn it - so you have beggars in Sharn who don't have Craft or Profession skills DESPITE them being available to their class - because they never had the opportunity.
wendigovegan 10-08-07, 08:16 PM	Unless I'm wrong, Commoner is a Non-Player-Character class. :P Yes, although I think there is a case to be made that the rules in the Players Guide are more guidelines for a DM. I use the rules when they help me make better adventures and ignore them when they get in my way. Just because they are not played by a player, this doesn't mean they don't use the same skill rules. Your game's BBEG is usually an NPC too and use the same game rules as the PCs. It's just that the campaign story usually focus more on the BBEG's evil plans than on Bob the commoner's day at work. As the DM I'm not likely to slow the game up by rolling for Bob the commoner's monthly income. I'll say "Bob has a farm and some animals...etc." and just go from there. Rolling a profession/craft check only really matters to players not to DMs which is why the rules give the same benefit to characters regardless of what craft/profession skill they have. Its a wildly inaccurate system for a wildly fantastic game. My goal was only to demonstrate that NPCs CAN live a decent life, and in this particular case, in Sharn, using the skills rules in the PHB, because they have class levels, skills and such so... I used them! I suppose that an NPC technically CAN live using the rules, but the rules are incredibly inaccurate for all the reasons listed previously not to mention all of the costs not subtracted in the hypothetical situation above. I think its better not to worry about them and focus more on how the rules affect the PCs. Edit : simple curiosity : do you ever used the Profession skill with one of you character?:P I did. As a matter of fact I house rule that every PC starts with 4 skill points in a craft or profession skill of their choice. This in essence represents their job before they became adventurers and encourages them to spend some skill points on what is largely a role-playing skill rather than a useful skill.
Edymnion 10-09-07, 08:17 PM	You miss my point. I was talking about the fact that it's illogical to apply the PHB rules to every situation. The PHB rules simply say that you can make a Profession check in your down time to make cash. My point is that if you have Profession (farmer) and and you're spending a week in Sharn (and you don't own property in Sharn), I'd like to hear the logic behind your making a bunch of gold off of it.No, I didn't miss your point, I mentioned this exact thing.And what happens in D&D when a farmer doesn't have a farm, or a blacksmith doesn't have a forge? Same thing that happens in the real world when the computer programmer doesn't have a computer. They either have enough money saved up to live off of until they can find a job in their field again, they learn new skills and change professions, or they get put out on the street.And no, the rules don't say you can just make a check whenever you want, it says you have to have access to the appropriate tools and trappings of your profession. How does a farmer make Profession (Farmer) checks while he's in Sharn for a week? He doesn't. Hence, he doesn't make any money that week. It goes back to "He either has enough money saved to live on until he can find work in his field again, or he takes up a new profession." While in Sharn, he better have some money to pay for his food and lodging. If he's going to stay there permanently, he better start taking ranks in a non-farming profession, since there isn't any land to farm in Sharn. Otherwise, he's going to be a begger.
Haulbrands 10-12-07, 01:32 AM	The next question is if owning a farm counts as skill-boosting equipment for Profession (Farmer)
Smug 10-12-07, 12:11 PM	The next question is if owning a farm counts as skill-boosting equipment for Profession (Farmer) I don't know, but I like the idea of a "masterwork farm". :)
Label 10-16-07, 09:43 PM	I think there is a case to be made that the rules in the Players Guide are more guidelines for a DM. And the rules in Dungeon Master's Guide is guidelines for Players? :P Seems true. The player who read the rules of the DMG will think "I won't do [this] because I don't want to take the xd6 of damage if I miss my reflex save" And the DM use the PHB to check the result of a Diplomacy roll vs an NPC. As for the Hireling wages vs npc making profession checks... I can't think of any relation, or any reason why it's different... the only thing I came up is that an hireling doesn't need any skill and he can still be paid :P Maybe they just set up a list of wages for different professions to make it more realistic... but I still think that, whether it's an pc or npc, skill rules should be the same for both, including profession checks to get money.
Smug 10-18-07, 06:26 PM	the only thing I came up is that an hireling doesn't need any skill and he can still be paid I don't know if you're just kidding, but this seems astoundingly illogical. Many of the professions listed require skills that cannot be performed untrained. And why exactly would you pay an "sage" with no skills 2 gp a day for his services when the 1sp/day cook theoretically has just as much knowledge? Or is it that if you asked the cook a question he'd say "Oh, that means you're treating me like a sage, you need to pay more." Maybe they just set up a list of wages for different professions to make it more realistic... Which is exactly my point: it is more realistic. if you check our world, you'll find that on average, lawyers get paid more than cooks. but I still think that, whether it's an pc or npc, skill rules should be the same for both, including profession checks to get money. But you've already acknowledged that it's less realistic. I'm saying that I'm happy to have a simple and unrealistic system for PCs. But I think it's foolish to try to stretch that system across the entire world... and I see no reason to do so. First you have the fact that the random check makes far more sense for a business owner than a salaried employee. As I said, the OWNER of a McDonalds makes more money if he brings in more customers, but the fry chef gets paid the same on a slow week as he does on a fast week. Beyond that, there's simply the fact that it's unrealistic to assert that all professions produce equal compensation. As I said, on average, a lawyer or a doctor is going to make a lot more than a cook or a maid. The DMG system accounts for this; the PHB doesn't. In part, this is because different occupations require different levels of education and training, and deal with different levels of profit and risk. A prestigious doctor or lawyer can charge hundreds of dollars an hour. A cook at the best restaurant in Sharn my do OK for himself. But some people will end up working for minimum wage, and that only goes so far. The thing is that D&D isn't supposed to be a realistic economic simulation. If it was, it would have to include far more complex systems for the higher paying professions. You can BE a fry cook with a few days training. To be a lawyer charging $200 an hour, you'll need more than a single skill; you ought to have Charisma, Intimidate, Bluff, Diplomacy, Knowledge skills relating to the field, and probably years of experience that have gotten you to your current position. In our society, a Doctor makes hundreds of dollars an hour - but has to go through many years of schooling to learn his skills, and of course risks malpractice and other concerns. You could come up with realistic systems for each profession, and say "OK, Bard Joe: because you've got the full skill set required to be a lawyer, you can rake in 100 gp if you take the week to work - meanwhile, Cook Sam, you get 6 gp from the week." But frankly, that's not what I want when I play D&D. The Profession skill system as it stands adds a little color to the character and lets me make some pocket change between adventures - and that's all that I expect of it. Trying to tying it to the success of every commoner on the streets of Sharn... or to the price you should expect to pay for services... stretches it beyond its intention or capabilities. Of course, given that we've heard Craft is going in 4E, I'd expect Profession will as well... making it something of a moot point.
Label 10-19-07, 12:31 AM	I don't know if you're just kidding Yes I was kiding :P As I said, on average, a lawyer or a doctor is going to make a lot more than a cook or a maid. The DMG system accounts for this; the PHB doesn't. But the DMG system has no clues for wage progression for getting better paid for getting better at the job (having more ranks). Except that of course we can give them more than what's listed, they'll be happy. To be a lawyer charging $200 an hour, you'll need more than a single skill; you ought to have Charisma, Intimidate, Bluff, Diplomacy, Knowledge skills relating to the field, and probably years of experience that have gotten you to your current position. Maybe... but maybe not. I don't know for the US but here in Quebec the honoraries of a lawyer is regulated by a bar association and depends on the type of case. Murder will get you more honoraries than petty theif. And I bet it's like this in Eberron too since House Sivis regulates this. In that case I think that a random check for a week of work is good because you don't know which kind of cases you'll have to work on. Unless you got a good reputation in similar cases... I'm curious of the 4E's way in this situation... because actually the skill system and hireling table seems to both overlap and be appart... or depend on who is using what and when. PCs who work have to roll their skill check, but PCs who hire an NPC has to pay him a fixed wage... hum... does this mean that if a PC wants to work during down time, we can choose to roll the skill, or just pay him the hireling fixed wage?
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 10-19-07, 01:46 AM	Giving every willing working person the same wage, regardless of colour of skin, family background or social standing. Equalization of wealth, based on income earned by work, not on wealth already gained. A socialist's dream. Is Breland a socialist country? Is Quebec?
Label 10-19-07, 03:38 AM	Giving every willing working person the same wage, regardless of colour of skin, family background or social standing. Equalization of wealth, based on income earned by work, not on wealth already gained. Neither PHB of DMG method are this. The Profession Skill is based on skill ranks, the more you are trained/good, the more you'll get paid. And the DMG's hireling wages are all the same for every cook, the same for every barrister, the same for every guide... "What is your profession?" "I'm the chief cook at the Oaks" "Cook eh? 1sp per day." "What?? But I have 10 ranks in the skill, and skill focus and..." "Sorry, cook : 1sp per day". The hireling wages are more "realistic" in the way that certain professions are better paid than others... but they are not "realistic" in the way that it don't care for how much good/professional you are. The PHB's Profession skill however is more "realistic" in the way that some jobs have ups and downs, and are also "realistic" for being Training-dependent, and also for being Will-dependent (someone who is Taking 10 is just trying to do the job without getting too bored and still get paid, and someone who is Taking 20 simply wants to perform at his best, and someone who rolls his dice is just saying "i take each day as it comes"). And since the skill is Wisdom-based, the more wisdom you have, the more you are "inately" good at your job. Note : I think I seems to change my mind often on that thing but, i'm just "thinking out loud"...;)
OctaviusIII 10-19-07, 04:06 AM	If Breland were Quebec the Last War would've lasted significantly less time - after the breakup of Galifar it would stop getting transfer payments from the other nations, causing its economy to collapse. But as for wages, I think that if you're trying to really simulate work you couldn't rely on a once-a-week roll of craft or profession. You'd have to simulate the whole method of making things or doing a job. So a weaponsmith would make a roll to see whether that sword he just made is masterwork or not. If he sold that it'd be 310gp in his pocket for his labor. However, unlike a clerk, he wouldn't have to make any ancillary checks. The clerk/expert would need to make knowledge checks for writing briefing notes, diplomacy checks for dealing with customers, gather information for research and so on. The once-a-week check is for abstracting the process but isn't intended for differentiating between all the various jobs. I think it makes sense that it's right around middle-class for income: it's an average.
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 10-19-07, 01:12 PM	And the DMG's hireling wages are all the same for every cook, the same for every barrister, the same for every guide... For mercenary leaders and sages, it explicitly states that hirelings with above-average skills demand higher fees. There is no explicit rule for above-average cooks, but I think the writer(s) of the DMG expected the reader to have that idea themselves. Besides, in typical play there is little reason to higher a 5th level cook or 2nd level animal tender with skill focus; if at all, you hire "some guy" to take care of the crap the PC doesn't want to burden himself with. Thus, there are no defined rules for this in the DMG, but IIRC, there are in the Arms and Equipment Guide and/or Stronghold Builder's Guidebook.