Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dunkeykong 03-24-07, 12:12 AM	what would your average cleric of the Silver flames title be? Like the Catholic churchs primary divine intermediary is called a Priest, or a Jewish Rabbi, or a Muslim Cleric. Im about to play a level 10 cloistered cleric(UA) and i see him alot like a catholic priest(more specifically like St. Francis).
Darth Syntax 03-24-07, 12:26 AM	My own titles for the Flame are (somewhat condensed) as follows, in order of descending power. Secular Clergy, those who are not members of monastic orders Keeper of the Flame High Cardinal Elector Cardinal Cardinal Prelate Archierophant Hierophant Argentus Prelate (this would be your average full priest) Vicar Acolyte Deacon Neophyte Regular Clergy (those in monastic orders) Abbot/ Abbess Prior/ Prioress Castigator Cantor Cellarer Sib (Sibling) Initiate Militant Orders Praetor (a generic title for all priests of militant orders) -- Depending on how high up in the church your priest is, he might be a Hierophant (making him a bit like a catholic Bishop) but I would imagine he would not be lower than a Prelate.
Edymnion 03-24-07, 12:52 PM	what would your average cleric of the Silver flames title be?This is actually covered in Faiths of Eberron. Acolyte/Seminarian Pilgrim Priest Bishop Archbishop Cardinal Keeper of the Flame Voice of the Silver Flame And then many of the non-unique (aka, not Keeper and Voice) have differant honorifics based on which arm of the church you belong to. For example, a Priest in the Order of Ministers would be referred to as "Father", while a Priest in the Order of Friars is a "Brother", and a Priest in the Order of Templars is a "Sir". The title stuff is all on page 58-59 of Faiths of Eberron, which I highly recommend you pick up. :)
maollelujah 03-24-07, 01:59 PM	And then many of the non-unique (aka, not Keeper and Voice) have differant honorifics based on which arm of the church you belong to. For example, a Priest in the Order of Ministers would be referred to as "Father", while a Priest in the Order of Friars is a "Brother", and a Priest in the Order of Templars is a "Sir". The title stuff is all on page 58-59 of Faiths of Eberron, which I highly recommend you pick up. I wouldn't waste your money. Just go to wikipedia and use the Catholic church for the Church of the Silver Flame and make the Soverign Host several Prostestant Churchs and you pretty much have what Faiths of Eberron says. It might be the worst Eberron book out there, as it is absolutely uninspiring.
gaerfindel 03-24-07, 04:58 PM	I wouldn't waste your money. Just go to wikipedia and use the Catholic church for the Church of the Silver Flame and make the Soverign Host several Prostestant Churchs and you pretty much have what Faiths of Eberron says. It might be the worst Eberron book out there, as it is absolutely uninspiring.Sorry maollelujah, but I must very much disagree. FoE provides excellent insight into the religious & spiritual cultures of Khorvaire. The book is most definitely worth the money.
dunkeykong 03-24-07, 08:02 PM	This is actually covered in Faiths of Eberron. Acolyte/Seminarian Pilgrim Priest Bishop Archbishop Cardinal Keeper of the Flame Voice of the Silver Flame And then many of the non-unique (aka, not Keeper and Voice) have differant honorifics based on which arm of the church you belong to. For example, a Priest in the Order of Ministers would be referred to as "Father", while a Priest in the Order of Friars is a "Brother", and a Priest in the Order of Templars is a "Sir". The title stuff is all on page 58-59 of Faiths of Eberron, which I highly recommend you pick up. :) I actually had got it as a gift a few months ago and had been to busy to crack it open(yes i am ashamed of myself). You were right, it was a fantastic source of RP info, i definetley suggest it if youve got the extra cash.
Nived 03-24-07, 08:36 PM	I just feel like tossing out there that the Priests (and I assume higher ups) are called Father and Mother, Brother and Sister, or Sir and Lady depending on which order of the clergy they belong to, Ministers, Friars, and Templars respectively. I liked that bit.
Teron Gorefiend 03-24-07, 08:40 PM	This (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041122a) article may be of some interest. It describes a few positions apparently not mentioned in Faiths of Eberron, including those most appropriate for PC's. Your character would most likely be a friar or pilgrim. EDIT: Well, that's embarrassing. I used italic instead of url tags. :embarrass
dunkeykong 03-24-07, 10:57 PM	This article may be of some interest. It describes a few positions apparently not mentioned in Faiths of Eberron, including those most appropriate for PC's. Your character would most likely be a friar or pilgrim. What article? seems like you forgot to link it. Now the anticipation is killing me.
Rathis Darkwielder 03-25-07, 06:57 AM	I think he means this article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041115a) and part 2 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041122a). The info on titles is in part 2, but the whole article is very recommended reading (if you haven't done so already).
Edymnion 03-25-07, 12:23 PM	I wouldn't waste your money. Just go to wikipedia and use the Catholic church for the Church of the Silver Flame and make the Soverign Host several Prostestant Churchs and you pretty much have what Faiths of Eberron says. It might be the worst Eberron book out there, as it is absolutely uninspiring.So, did you even read the book? I mean, FoE actually ended up painting the Silver Flame as being more islamic than it did catholic (what with the reciting the miracles of the silver flame in the same way muslims recite the pillars of islam). Its an excellent book that covers all aspects of Religion in Eberron, and no wikipedia article can cover all of that.
SquirrelMortis 03-25-07, 01:50 PM	Also, for the Infernal Bovine's personal view, look up the Silver Flame Dragonshard on the Eberron website! :thumbsup:
Darth Syntax 03-25-07, 02:01 PM	I always envisioned the Church of the Silver Flame as being more like Zoroastrianism (and related belief systems) than anything else.
Edymnion 03-25-07, 03:02 PM	I always envisioned the Church of the Silver Flame as being more like Zoroastrianism (and related belief systems) than anything else.Well, considering that almost all modern western religions have Zorastrianism as a basis, I can't really say that that means much.
Darth Syntax 03-25-07, 03:45 PM	Although there are Zoroastrian influences on most of the Abrahamic religions I see the parallels between the Silver Flame and the religion of the Avesta as much closer. Beyond the veneration of fire as the emphasis on ritual purity, there are other interesting parallels. 1. Dualism Although a conflict between good and evil is not by any means a feature unique to Zoroastrianism, the sort of dualism espoused in the Avesta is somewhat unique in its depiction of good and evil being on roughly equal footing in terms of power. Flamic religion clearly acknowledges that evil is at least as powerful as good, and that the world is inherently engaged in the conflict between them. It also seems to emphasize the mortal component in this struggle. 2. Emphasis on the Living Although Flamic religion acknowledges the afterlife and has it's own unique version of what happens to one after death (merging with the Flame), the religion itself does not seem to be greatly focused on the aferlife or with eternal rewards and punishments. Instead the Flame is more concerned with the actions of the living in the world and the cultivation of good than it is in the fate of the dead. -- All that said, the Flame is clearly its own religion and I agree with you that there are aspects of the religion that hint of Islam as well as forms of Christianity. However, unlike either the Abrahamic religions or Zoroastiranism, Flamic religion lacks an anthropomorphic god which clearly makes it something different than many of us here in the real world are used to. Which is very cool.
maollelujah 03-26-07, 08:52 AM	So, did you even read the book? I mean, FoE actually ended up painting the Silver Flame as being more islamic than it did catholic (what with the reciting the miracles of the silver flame in the same way muslims recite the pillars of islam). Reciting the Miracles of the Silver Flame is Islamic in the same way reciting the Apostle's Creed or the Nicene Creed is Islamic too? I don't really remember anything that made the CotSF Islamic. The entire Silver Flame chapter was pretty much gack, right down to the silver smoke rising from the Cathedral when a new Keeper is selected and the stupid names of the seminaries. Absolutely uninspiring, which is unfortunate because it could've been a contender. Its an excellent book that covers all aspects of Religion in Eberron, and no wikipedia article can cover all of that. In some areas I would agree with you. The Dark Six was pretty cool, and I found the Undying Court interesting, but unfortunately the 'Vassals', the Silver Flame and for the most part the Druid sects were quite lacking.
Edymnion 03-26-07, 12:55 PM	Reciting the Miracles of the Silver Flame is Islamic in the same way reciting the Apostle's Creed or the Nicene Creed is Islamic too? I don't really remember anything that made the CotSF Islamic.Except that I don't recall the Apostle's Creed or the Nicene Creed being recited every time worship is called. Reciting the pillars of Islam is a daily occurance, however, as is reciting the miracles of the flame.
gaerfindel 03-26-07, 01:14 PM	In addition to Islamic & Zoroastrian elements, I've oft envisioned certain Hindu-Buddhist styles being implemented.  For example, I can see the Flamic architectural style resembling the Temple at Phu'ket. (I'd love to provide a link, but the programme things I'm trying to enter the English four-letter invective. Fix this, WizO's, please?) Here's a nice diagram (http://www.krabiemerald.net/images/schizzo_orientale.jpg) to use in your games, too.
maollelujah 03-26-07, 07:31 PM	Except that I don't recall the Apostle's Creed or the Nicene Creed being recited every time worship is called. Reciting the pillars of Islam is a daily occurance, however, as is reciting the miracles of the flame. In all the services I've ever attended the modernized version of the Nicene Creed is recited as a Profession of Faith, same the Flamers, except I believe they recite Miracles of the Flame at the opening of every service. Now it would've been interesting if the Flamers said the "Miracles" every morning regardless of attending service, but alas that is not the case. Of course the Miracles are pretty lame, as is the hierarchy of Evil.
Edymnion 03-26-07, 07:54 PM	In all the services I've ever attended the modernized version of the Nicene Creed is recited as a Profession of Faith, same the Flamers, except I believe they recite Miracles of the Flame at the opening of every service.Must be a denominational thing, as I can't remember the last time I've ever even heard the Nicene Creed recited outside of a classroom.
Darth Syntax 03-26-07, 10:25 PM	I heard the Nicene Creed recited at numerous Roman Catholic masses when I was younger. I don't know what they do now however due to the fact that it has been about 11 years sense I have been in a catholic service.
DrOfDemonology 04-01-07, 12:39 PM	what would your average cleric of the Silver flames title be? Like the Catholic churchs primary divine intermediary is called a Priest, or a Jewish Rabbi, or a Muslim Cleric. Im about to play a level 10 cloistered cleric(UA) and i see him alot like a catholic priest(more specifically like St. Francis). I like the idea of calling them Murderer, Butcher, Bigot, Hate-Monger; the Silver Flame's genocide against lycanthropes makes them, in my opinion, the most evil faith on Eberron, far worse than the Blood of Vol or any of the other "standard" evil religions. The Silver Flame is as bad as Nazism. :rant:
Edymnion 04-01-07, 06:45 PM	I like the idea of calling them Murderer, Butcher, Bigot, Hate-Monger; the Silver Flame's genocide against lycanthropes makes them, in my opinion, the most evil faith on Eberron, far worse than the Blood of Vol or any of the other "standard" evil religions. The Silver Flame is as bad as Nazism. :rant:I'm sorry, but you brought up the word "nazi" in an internet debate. You thereby automatically lose the argument and forfeit your point of view.
goblin_pride 04-01-07, 06:55 PM	I'm sorry, but you brought up the word "nazi" in an internet debate. You thereby automatically lose the argument and forfeit your point of view. I've seen you do it before when discussing Karrnath, Edy. Your opinion is negated as well. Come to think of it, so is mine. Bugger.
Nived 04-01-07, 10:19 PM	I like the idea of calling them Murderer, Butcher, Bigot, Hate-Monger; the Silver Flame's genocide against lycanthropes makes them, in my opinion, the most evil faith on Eberron, far worse than the Blood of Vol or any of the other "standard" evil religions. The Silver Flame is as bad as Nazism. :rant: The Purge wasn't like anything in human history, it was a plauge that caused the poor souls afflicted by it to turn into ravanous beasts. This wasn't normal lycanthrope, Faiths of Eberron states that all lycanthropes not just natural ones were suddenly able to pass on the curse, and evil lycanthopes (and they tend to be the most numerous to begin with) started spreading the curse... fast. Entire towns were changed, people were driven mad, good people came to... only to discover they had slaughtered or infected their own families. It's not like the Church just decided to up and commit gennocide one day, there was a clear and present threat... they overreacted... but they might have just saved the world doing it.
The White Sorcerer 04-02-07, 10:17 AM	I like the idea of calling them Murderer, Butcher, Bigot, Hate-Monger; the Silver Flame's genocide against lycanthropes makes them, in my opinion, the most evil faith on Eberron, far worse than the Blood of Vol or any of the other "standard" evil religions. The Silver Flame is as bad as Nazism. :rant: So standing by idly and watching the world be overrun by lycanthropes would make them good?
Edymnion 04-02-07, 12:29 PM	And its not like these things walked around with their alignments on a dog collar. The amount of 'thrope hunters that could actually determine the alignment of their targets were very few and far between (in fact, you'll note that many PALADINS were the ones to dissobey orders and try to help some 'thropes, doubtlessly because they used their ability to Detect Evil and found out that their "targets" were not evil).
Darth Syntax 04-02-07, 05:09 PM	So standing by idly and watching the world be overrun by lycanthropes would make them good? The Purge was without any doubt at all and evil thing to do, but then so were all the other reasonable options. This is the kind of event that is not black and white, it was a choice of evils. Sure, they could have done nothing and let the people be killed, but that's clearly not the prefered choice and they could have tried to contain the lycanthropes and discover a cure for the plague, but that might have been highly impratical and thus led to further deaths and general mayhem (although this would have been my prefered method, followed by doing nothing). What we had are a bunch of frightened people who acted in the face of a threat that they only barely understood (I don't think much was really known about lycanthropy before this period) and ended up with horrific results. The Church is not solely to blame as we have to remember that the local people were no doubt also engaged in the exterminations. There's plenty of blame to go around. People, good people do terrible, vile, horrific things when they are frightened and don't see a way out. This is what I believe happened with the Purge.
Nived 04-03-07, 03:19 AM	When faced with a no win situation, where innocents are going to die, you choose the one you think will result in the least loss of innocent life, and you try to live with the consiquences. That's what I think most of the people in the church believed they were doing durring the purge.
Joni-san 04-09-07, 01:06 PM	Didn't some Order dedicated to Aureon also help in the purge?
SquirrelMortis 04-10-07, 04:38 AM	Didn't some Order dedicated to Aureon also help in the purge? You might be thinking about the Esoteric Order of Aureon...
poisondusk 04-18-07, 10:43 AM	Sorry maollelujah, but I must very much disagree. FoE provides excellent insight into the religious & spiritual cultures of Khorvaire. The book is most definitely worth the money. Yes, I agree. One of the better books.