Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Syltorian 03-01-07, 01:53 PM	Is the Silver Flame in Flamekeep unique, or does every site which guards an imprisoned rajah have one of those "magical gas leaks"? I am speaking here about the Flame as a physical manifestation, not the spiritual force, of course, which seems omnipresent anyway. In 5N, it describes the Silver Flame as being originally a column of darker fire originally created the rajah as it broke loose some centuries ago. So I was wondering whether the current silver fire in the cathedral is this same flame, just coloured differently and now purified, or whether that darker flame was originally a silver one (hidden from view somehow), taken over by the fiend before being turned back again. If the Silver Flame is unique, what other mystical features (not including buildings erected there later) could indicate the prisons of rajahs on these ancient sites (such as the one in Q'Barra, Sykarn, the Tashana Tundra, and many other places)?
Yakman 03-01-07, 02:42 PM	Is the Silver Flame in Flamekeep unique, or does every site which guards an imprisoned rajah have one of those "magical gas leaks"? I am speaking here about the Flame as a physical manifestation, not the spiritual force, of course, which seems omnipresent anyway. In 5N, it describes the Silver Flame as being originally a column of darker fire originally created the rajah as it broke loose some centuries ago. So I was wondering whether the current silver fire in the cathedral is this same flame, just coloured differently and now purified, or whether that darker flame was originally a silver one (hidden from view somehow), taken over by the fiend before being turned back again. If the Silver Flame is unique, what other mystical features (not including buildings erected there later) could indicate the prisons of rajahs on these ancient sites (such as the one in Q'Barra, Sykarn, the Tashana Tundra, and many other places)? The Silver Flame in Flamekeep is unique, because it binds not only a rajah (the most powerful rajah, iirc), but also a mighty coatl, and the founder of the Church of the Silver Flame, all in one. The Silver Flame contains the rajah's evil. As for other rajah prisons, not all are so dramatic, but some are, such as the one in Q'barra. Let your imagination run free.
Vharuck 03-01-07, 04:16 PM	There's definitely a rajah bound by flame in the Demon Wastes, as one tribe of orcs (the "Ghost Guardians") worship "the binding flame."
Darth Syntax 03-01-07, 06:40 PM	The way I understand things (and I could be wrong here) is that the manifestation in Flame Keep is unique. Also, I assumed that the demon bound by that particular manifestation of the Binding Flame was quite weak (effectively the scullery maid or janitor of a real Rajah), otherwise there would have been a lot more damage. Real end of the world type stuff. A lone paladin and a single coatl would not have been enough to trim the toenails of a Rajah, let alone bind it. As to other signs of Rajah activity. Voices in the wind over a certain area The horrible feeling that the whole of your being is being laid bare; a kind of terrible existential nakedness Bleeding Trees, always a nice touch A breakdown in the local laws of physics: Objects appearing in a manner that could only exist in an Escher drawing, things falling up, that sort of thing. The unholy desire to put pineapple on pizza, a sure sign of absolute evil and depravity, washing over everyone is a given area Extreme, unnatural cold in the midst of the heat of summer Plants being consumed by some horrible disease that causes them to leak a yellow, bile-like ichor Towers of perfect glass rising from the earth The local population being consumed by wasting diseases Burning Skies
Shady314 03-01-07, 07:40 PM	Also, I assumed that the demon bound by that particular manifestation of the Binding Flame was quite weak (effectively the scullery maid or janitor of a real Rajah), otherwise there would have been a lot more damage. Real end of the world type stuff. A lone paladin and a single coatl would not have been enough to trim the toenails of a Rajah, let alone bind it. No demon bound by the Silver Flame is in any way weak. Only the Rajahs are bound by it and every Rajah is a big bad motha you know what. The binds that were holding the Rajah had LOOSENED not broken and the Rajah was attempting to escape. The bonds were retightened thanks to the efforts of Tira Miron. And for all we really know of them Tira Miron could have been epic as could the couatl if that is the only way in your world paladins can do heroic things and save the world in your campaign. :rolleyes:
Darth Syntax 03-01-07, 08:29 PM	I agree that the Demon in the Flame is powerful (by mortal standards) but when one compares it with the the Overlords of the AOD, it was probably fairly weak. If all it did was loosen it's bonds, then yes, Tira and the coatl could have shored up the bindings, but if it had gotten out, well all bets are off. On the issue of heroics when dealing with ancient evils: I am of the opinion that ancient evils can never be completely defeated, only help back, hampered, or halted. Sure, you can imprison the Rajah's, or help keep them asleep and bound, but you can't kill them, and you can't stop them. This sort of evil is usually the backdrop evil, it lurks in dark places, casts a pleasing shadow of fear and terror, and keeps people on their toes. It's the sort of thing the learned and the paranoid worry about on dark nights when the rain falls a little too heavily or when strange objects turn up in museum. When one goes up against such ancient evils, all you can hope for is to buy the world a little more time. It might be a week, it might be ten thousand years, but it's the best you can hope for. Sure, you can foil a particular plot, but you're never going to make the world a safe place, free from the fear of horrifying, soul crushing doom. This is the Lovecraftian element of the world -- Now, mortal (or at the very least not ancient, unspeakable evil) is something that can be dealt with. But here is where the shades of grey tend to creep into things and it's often not clear what the right thing to do is. Usually there is no clear cut good or evil, only a variety of options. Some may look better at first than others, but you never know what the consequences of those actions will be. This is the Noire element of the world. -- So, saving the world isn't really an option, and neither is always doing the right thing. You just have to muddle through, figuring things out as you go along. It's a bit like the Samuel Beckett quote: "Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better."
The Dreaming Duck 03-01-07, 10:46 PM	Only the Rajahs are bound by it... I disagree. Page 224 of the ECS specifically says "Couatls sacrifice most of their number to send the most powerful of the demon lords and the majority of the fiends back to Khyber, where they are trapped for eternity." Beyond this, Hellcow has also described the Lords of Dust as the fiends who "slipped through the net". There's only about 30 rajahs, and in the Age of Demons there were armies of lesser fiends. The fact that there are barely enough left to fill Ashtakala supports the idea that "the majority of the fiends" are trapped along with the rajahs.
Shady314 03-01-07, 10:57 PM	I disagree. Page 224 of the ECS specifically says "Couatls sacrifice most of their number to send the most powerful of the demon lords and the majority of the fiends back to Khyber, where they are trapped for eternity." Beyond this, Hellcow has also described the Lords of Dust as the fiends who "slipped through the net". There's only about 30 rajahs, and in the Age of Demons there were armies of lesser fiends. The fact that there are barely enough left to fill Ashtakala supports the idea that "the majority of the fiends" are trapped along with the rajahs. Good point but are those lesser ones the ones that are going to break free? Doubt it. I think it's only the big bad rajahs we have to worry about breaking free. Could be funny to send a low level party after some terrible fiend that escaped from the flame and turns out to just be a zakya rakshasa. :D
Darth Syntax 03-02-07, 12:23 AM	I don't know, the binding could suffer from Death Star syndrome . . .
Syltorian 03-02-07, 07:01 AM	First let me thank everyone for answering on this thread! The Silver Flame in Flamekeep is unique, because it binds not only a rajah (the most powerful rajah, iirc), but also a mighty coatl, and the founder of the Church of the Silver Flame, all in one. The Silver Flame contains the rajah's evil. True, Tira Miron is the only mortal bound with one of the rakshasas anywhere. The story of the Flame in Thrane is also the only one we know so far where a dark flame actually appeared; perhaps the rajah there has associations with Fire himself. However, the counter-argument is that the couatl, if I recall correctly, was already in the flame at that time, struggling against the rajah. Did it get there before, or is it one of the original ones to bind the overlords? If the latter, is this what the sacrifice of the couatl really was: being themselves the almost physical bonds to restrict the overlords? As for other rajah prisons, not all are so dramatic, but some are, such as the one in Q'barra. Let your imagination run free. I reread the section in the Explorer's Guide about Haka'torvhak. It claims that the fiends were bound "in the burning heart of the volcano". Unfortunately, that's as far as it goes describing the actual prison of the fiends; though it says more about the demon city around the binding place. A volcano is still fire; so I'll propose the tentative hypothesis that fire is somehow required to bind the fiends. I wonder whether the volcano's magma is silver coloured. There's definitely a rajah bound by flame in the Demon Wastes, as one tribe of orcs (the "Ghost Guardians") worship "the binding flame." The concept of "flame" is a strong one. Nowhere do we find a religion that would indicate that a rajah could be bound in a whirling vortex of air, or a silver crystal in a mountain. The tale of Levistus in the Frostfell might indicate that one can imprison rajahs in icebergs, however. On that note, I wonder whether a Khybershard of sufficient size would work. As for the Demonwastes, I have not read anything anywhere about an actual flame there, but I assume there must be one - quite possibly more than one. There is certainly enough volcanic activity in the Demon Wastes. The way I understand things (and I could be wrong here) is that the manifestation in Flame Keep is unique. Also, I assumed that the demon bound by that particular manifestation of the Binding Flame was quite weak (effectively the scullery maid or janitor of a real Rajah), otherwise there would have been a lot more damage. Real end of the world type stuff. A lone paladin and a single coatl would not have been enough to trim the toenails of a Rajah, let alone bind it. That's an interesting theory. I still believe that it was an actual rajah, and as other said, its bonds were loosened, not broken. There are, after all, other tales of a rajah breaking its bonds: Levistus in the Frostfell (PGtE) and the Sykarn Rajah (SoS); neither destroyed the world (or managed to transform major swathes of it into a living Hell, to be more exact). Besides, the rajah was not defeated: like you say later, for the overlord, the most couatl and paladin could cause was a temporary setback. The Dark Voice in the Flame still seeks to pervert those willing to listen, after all. As to other signs of Rajah activity. Some great stuff there, Darth Syntax! I especially agree with the blasphemy that is pineapple pizza! However, I was wondering about that too, especially when reading the texts of the example rajahs in Keith's article in Dragon Magazine. The rajahs seem to have a considerable influence on their surroundings: The Rage of War causing people to wage never-ending wars; the nightmares caused by Tul Oreshka; the same rajah's influence on unborn children, causing them to be born insane. Why then is the Cathedral of Flamekeep not ravaged by something similar? Yes, there is corruption in the Church, but that is still only a minority. Perhaps that would support your theory that the fiend in the Flame is not one of the most powerful rajahs... but that seems to contradict what else we heard about it.
Adhevan 03-02-07, 06:08 PM	Good point but are those lesser ones the ones that are going to break free? Doubt it. I think it's only the big bad rajahs we have to worry about breaking free. Could be funny to send a low level party after some terrible fiend that escaped from the flame and turns out to just be a zakya rakshasa. :D That all depends on the nature of the prisons. Weaker (metaphysically smaller) demons might not need as large a breach to slip free.
Teron Gorefiend 03-03-07, 04:06 PM	However, I was wondering about that too, especially when reading the texts of the example rajahs in Keith's article in Dragon Magazine. The rajahs seem to have a considerable influence on their surroundings: The Rage of War causing people to wage never-ending wars; the nightmares caused by Tul Oreshka; the same rajah's influence on unborn children, causing them to be born insane. Why then is the Cathedral of Flamekeep not ravaged by something similar? Yes, there is corruption in the Church, but that is still only a minority. Perhaps that would support your theory that the fiend in the Flame is not one of the most powerful rajahs... but that seems to contradict what else we heard about it. Maybe the Flamekeep Rajah's influence is diminished by the fact that he was re-bound so recently (relatively speaking). Regarding what Vharuck said, while there are surely at least a couple of Overlords bound under the Demon Wastes, there isn't a physical manifestation of the Silver Flame there. The orcs know what the Binding Flame "looks" like because some of them have seen it in visions, divinations and such. In addition, I agree that there's evidence to suggest the Rajah at Flamekeep has some dominion over fire. We could call him Shetrakta, the Blazing Famine, to represent fire's metaphorical hunger and the widespread misery an inferno can cause. Finally, I personally dismiss the bit about Levistus along with the rest of the PGtE's heavy-handed attempts to make me buy other books, especially since it contradicts Keith Baker's assertion that a Rajah exists only as a vague consciousness while it's bound. That's just me, though.
AvonRekaes 03-03-07, 07:14 PM	Personally I believe every location that has a bound rajah has an accompanying manifestation of silver fire. So far there are only 3 examples of this, and one of the three is only referenced. The first, of course, is Flamekeep. The second one if the reference to the Gashkala orcs of the Demon Wastes worshiping the "binding flame". Now that could just be what they named the force they revere, possibly due to oracular visions of white fire binding fiends, but it could be that they actually found a font of silver fire. The third appears in Secrets of Sarlona, and is guarded by, appropriately enough, the Storm Guardians of Adar. The Teeth of the Three is a massive artifact composed of three dragonshards, one of each type, each about twice as big as an adult human. It floats just above a pillar of silver flame errupting from the ground. So in my opinion, I don't think the flame in Flamekeep is unique just because it's there. It's unique because its the specific binding site of Tira Miron, and it grants power to the current Keeper of the Flame (only when in proximity to that flame). But similar fonts of white fire are found wherever rajahs are bound, in my opinion.
The Dreaming Duck 03-03-07, 07:39 PM	The second one if the reference to the Gashkala orcs of the Demon Wastes worshiping the "binding flame". Now that could just be what they named the force they revere, possibly due to oracular visions of white fire binding fiends, but it could be that they actually found a font of silver fire. I understand this is only your opinion, and you're certainly entitled to it. The problem I see with this is that if the ghaash'kala orcs have an equivalent to Flamekeep, why isn't it mentioned? None of the references to the Ghaash'kala suggest that the Binding Flame is associated with a specific location, and for that matter, the orcs don't even guard sites where the rajahs are bound; they guard the Labyrinth, serving as a wall between the Demon Wastes and the rest of the world. In my opinion, they see the Binding Flame much as a Jedi sees the Force - an omnipresent energy binding demons across the world, not tied to a single location. Again, THEY aren't protecting the Flame; the Flame is empowering them to allow them to serve as effective sentinels. Beyond this, no manifestation of silver flame has been suggested in Haka'torvhak, and Keith Baker says nothing about fonts of Silver Flame being associated with the binding points of the rajahs in Eternal Evil. Personally - and this is my opinion, worth no more than yours - I see the physical manifestation as an optional effect, essentially a "gas leak". If anything, its presence is an indication that the binding of the rajah is flawed - which would explain why the rajah appears to have a greater ability to "whisper into the minds" of people than most of the other Overlords, who are completely passive. So I think you COULD find a flame at another site - but that you won't automatically find one at EVERY site. And again, if I use this, I'm likely to suggest that sites with a physical manifestation actually have a weaker bond than those without it.
AvonRekaes 03-03-07, 08:10 PM	<snip> Personally - and this is my opinion, worth no more than yours - I see the physical manifestation as an optional effect, essentially a "gas leak". If anything, its presence is an indication that the binding of the rajah is flawed<snip> Actually this makes tons of sense. The only two flames known to exist (Flamekeep and the Teeth of the Three) also have Rajahs with influence in the world. The nature of this influence is different, as Rajahs have different "portfolios" of evil. The one in Flamekeep whispers corrupting secrets into the minds of whoever it can touch, while the one in Adar is so full of wrath and rage that the Teeth of the Three artifact is required to channel its anger into the storms that form over the mountains. So yeah, maybe the presence of a physical flame is a sign of a weakened binding. As for the ghaash'kala orcs, there really isn't too much info on them one way or the other. Both of our opinions are equally valid because they've been given maybe 2 pages of text and I don't think that's enough to say with any definity whether they have an actual Flame or not. (That being said, I stated a physical Binding Flame as a Touchstone site a few years ago, so I'm pretty set in my opinion :P)
Teron Gorefiend 03-03-07, 11:28 PM	Originally, the manifestation at Flamekeep was supposed to be unique; I'm fairly sure I could dig up some obscure reference to that in a book, and Keith Baker has definitely said so. That bit about the gaash'kala (sp?) only knowing the nature of the Binding Flame through visions is straight from Mr. Baker - and note that they don't have Tira Miron to put a humanoid face on it, but instead deal with the Flame itself. Evidently, either the assertion that Flamekeep is unique or that there's a font of silver fire in Sarlona is a slip-up. While I favour the original version, either one is valid. What's definitely official (until, of course, a future sourcebook muddies these waters too) is that all the Rajahs influence the area above their "tombs", so the presence of a "gas leak" has nothing to do with that. In fact, we briefly wondered above about the fact that Flamekeep's resident Overlord seems relatively benign, compared to Rak Tulkesh, Eldrantulku and others who seriously mess with the minds of the people in their vicinity. Incidentally, the part about the wrathful Rajah under Adar sounds like Rak Tulkesh, the Rage of War, if you want to go with that.
tallric_kruush 03-04-07, 12:14 AM	I've always imagined that "the flame" in general (not restricted to Flamekeep), is the physical manifestation of the couatls' spirits. They seem to have literally bound the fiends with their (couatls') own souls/essence. If you read the novel "In the Claws of the Tiger",you'll see that James Wyatt seemed to hold a similar opinion. Unless I'm mistaken, he had a huge role in making the finished product we now hold in our hands as the ECS. So the nature, at least, of the Silver Flame, did indeed seem to be originally envisioned this way. I believe the flame is present in many places. Likely, you're not going to see it unless you're standing in Flamekeep, or deep within Khyber, etc... but it would seem likely to me that it's to be found anywhere the fiends are bound, whether it's seen or not. The only things that made the manifestation at Flamekeep unique, in my mind, were the following: the dramatic near escape of the fiend and the subsequent highly visible battle led by Tira Miron, and the restoration of the spiritual bounds that this time also trapped a human, Tira, rather than just couatl and fiend. I would think there are plenty of "flame" sites around Eberron that just aren't as conspicuous as the one at Flamekeep. In game, even some historians and theologians of Khorvaire have guessed at a link between the modern church and the ancient serpent cults of Xen'drik. My guess would be that the flame would've been as easily recognized by some of those ancient cultists as significant to their faith (as the physical manifestation of the serpents'/couatls' spirits) the same that a modern Thrane (or other worshipper) would recognize it as a symbol/foundation of his or her faith. In the Xen'drik-based game I'm currently playing in, we have a drow PC that reveres "the Binding Flame"/the couatls themselves for the honor and courage they showed in ending the fiends' dominion. She (the PC) comes complete with couatl and flamic imagery in tatoo form. Her people were once Vulkoor worshippers before allying with a living couatl, long ago, to defend a fiendish prison from a band of Fire Giants seduced by one of the Lords of Dust.
yrogerg 03-04-07, 10:52 PM	Finally, I personally dismiss the bit about Levistus along with the rest of the PGtE's heavy-handed attempts to make me buy other books, especially since it contradicts Keith Baker's assertion that a Rajah exists only as a vague consciousness while it's bound. That's just me, though. Personally, I agree, but I really liked a lot of Frostburn, and am planning on using bits -with significantly more adaptation- for a campaign I'm working on, so I came up with a solution: Levistus *isn't* bound. At least, not in the ordinary sense. At one point, he *was* bound by the couatls: the Rimefire Eidolons IMC are the spiritual remnants of the Couatls (or possibly fellow children of Syberis) that fought in that momentous battle in the Age of Fiends (Rimefire, IMC is simply another conception of the Silver Flame/Flame that Binds/etc). At some point -perhaps nearly within the recorded history of Kourvaire- Levistus broke free, and decimated the native populations of the Frostfell. Eventually, he was opposed, defeated, and subdued by a stopgap combination of martial force, Rimefire magic, and a particular manifest zone of Dolurrh (I really liked the environmental hazards in Frostburn, so I decided that the planar bounderies are weaker at the poles of Eberron, thus more frequent and more powerful manifest zones). Now, he's trapped within his more characteristic icy prison, but no longer bound in a truer sense, and is free to act, plot, and influence others. However, once again, he's only subdued, not bound. He's still aware of his confinement, and actively taking action to free himself again.
Korhal IV 03-04-07, 11:31 PM	In addition, I agree that there's evidence to suggest the Rajah at Flamekeep has some dominion over fire. We could call him Shetrakta, the Blazing Famine, to represent fire's metaphorical hunger and the widespread misery an inferno can cause. I would be more apt to consider a rajah with dominion over pestilence - fire works better as a metaphor for disease (consuming all flesh, wracking symptoms, etc), and the corruption of some of Flamekeep's guardians seems more like pestilential work.
Darth Syntax 03-04-07, 11:50 PM	I don't know about the whole fire = pestilence angle. Fire is often viewed as a purifying force, which dosen't really work all that will with disease.
goblin_pride 03-05-07, 09:43 PM	I don't know about the whole fire = pestilence angle. Fire is often viewed as a purifying force, which dosen't really work all that will with disease. Fire has a bit of a double meaning in most religions. For the good side it has a purifying aspect, while for the evil side, it's an all-consuming elemental force. I'm quite certain that his infernal bovine majesty took that dual nature of fire in theology and animism into account when he created the silver flame.
The_Robot 03-08-07, 09:04 PM	Fire has a bit of a double meaning in most religions. For the good side it has a purifying aspect, while for the evil side, it's an all-consuming elemental force. I'm quite certain that his infernal bovine majesty took that dual nature of fire in theology and animism into account when he created the silver flame. makes sense to me. on one hand you have the purifying purge against the Lycanthropes, and the puirty of one's soul the flame should give. on the other, the tiny burning cinders laid within the curropted by the whispers from the flame that may someday consume the very flame itself! this is an angle i'm planning on running at my PCs. i was lucky enough to just recently aquire a Paladin of the Silver Flame in the party (not playing yet, but soon). basically IMC, the majority of the Diet of Cardinals are curropted by the Rajah bound inside the Flame, in this way, the "gas leak" idea is appealing to me, as it would maintain the idea that the Rajah is slowly gaining power over the flame. a small band of those loyal to Mira, Jaela and the Flame itself have been officially excommunicated by the church (most notably, my NPC Warforged Paladin, named Church) and are currently fighting the curroption within the Silver Flame (all of it, not just from the Rajah, but also just the criminal clerics or priest who are not true to the ideals of the Flame). eventually, i plan to include the PCs into the fight and if all goes well, have the fallout of purging the curroption from the flame bring HUGE changes into Thrane and the very face of Khorvaire itself! i'll keep my eye on this thread. good stuff.
DarthMidget 03-08-07, 09:31 PM	Nice work here fellows. Gawd, I gotta start runnin' an Eberron campaign again! :D
Daydreamer 03-14-07, 01:45 AM	The fire is also in Adars site (idk if mentioned already) And keep in mind the mined material that is good aligned from Thrane. It might be that this material is located around all sealed Rajahs.
Ehtiar 03-14-07, 05:03 PM	Or just to be irritating... multiple silver type flames might be purely coincidental.... It might just be a devious mind play to make everyone go "who, wha' , where??" For all we know when the dragon's created the artifact in Adar to channel the trapped Rajah's rage... they might have just put the "silver flame" there as part of the magic for pure aesthetic reasons... "ooo..its pretty now..." as well as the general intimidating "No..I'm not going to grab the big powerful magical item thats floating on big flames...you do it.." factor. :D Then again, no-ones mentioned the "Cataclysm of Silver" special ability of Cataclysm Mages form the Explorer's Handbook.... "Like a river of argent, the couatles ringed Ashtakala and sang down its walls, willing losing themselves in the eldritch whirlpool that flooded the city with silver flame."
Daydreamer 03-15-07, 09:13 AM	It does mention in the adar site (the teeth of the three) that this place will effectively suck in and destroy evil outsiders, and that the fire will flare up after it does so. The book seems to suggest that the fire is a way of dissapating the energies of the Rajahs. And of the two sites of silver flame we are aware of Rajahs exist. It COULD be purely aethetic, but that seems far fetched. This does nothing to prove divinity, but it strongly suggests there is some connection between the flame and the suppresion of the ancient rajahs. And this carries with it a suggestion that the flame might have a link to the prophecy.