Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rekko 07-18-07, 11:36 AM	If you look at Khorvaire's map, you'll notice that West and East are seperated by the Mournland and the Scions Sound and Thronehold Lake. The bridge between Thaliost and Rekkenmark is destroyed. How do you suggest West and East should be reunited? Repair the fallen bridge. Khyber Underdark realm connects Karrnath with Aundair or Thrane. Ship travel from Korth to Flamekeep. Lyrandar airship. Walk throught the Mournland... Karrn Bay to Eldeen Bay or Stormhome. However there are no ports up there. Valenar to Darguun passing by Kraken Bay. Fly over Scions Sound. Teleport. Well, it is said in Rekkenmark description in ECS that the airship port is not really in operation. I don't know if Thrane and Karrnath would want to rebuild the bridge between Thaliost and Rekkenmark. Passing throught Khyber or the Mournland is not very safe. Kraken Bay either. So this would leave Flying, Teleport, Ship between Flamekeep and Korth which may be strongly limited. So, how do you travel from West to East and back again in your game? Think not only for adventurers, but also for commercial transport and noble people travelling, tourism. Rekko
Revvecor 07-18-07, 12:00 PM	With the limited traveling my group has done, I would have to say; Airship-(for those who can afford it) is the best option for adventures in a hurry, you can hover above the ground in most areas and either jump down or climb down. Another limiting feature of the airship is the fact that there really are not that many of them given how new they are. Ship, Ocean going- Is the best all around transporting device for merchants and travelers, given the vast amounts of ships there are and the minimal expense of traveling on them. A third option if you are truly broke are the Orien Caravans. They travel on predetermined routes and will normally make it to every small village and town through the "safe" nations.
Dragom 07-18-07, 12:05 PM	Just get the PC's to repair the lightning rail going through the Mournland. That should make things easier for you.
Rekko 07-18-07, 12:23 PM	Repairing the Lightning Rail in the Mournland was one of my ideas, but then again, it would need High protection from Living Spells, the Lord of Blades and Chaotic events of the Mournland. Moreover, the Lightning Rail might not function properly once repaired, you still are in the Mournland... I am focusing my question around crossing Scions Sound. First political agreements would be needed between Thrane and Karrnath or Aundair and Karrnath, and this is not an easy deal for a New War may be roaring sooner than later (maybe a few decades). Then, either rebuild the bridge and re-connect the Lightning Rail or open airship ports in Rekkenmark and border cities in Thrane (Thaliost) and Aundair. Even if I focus my question around crossing Scionds Sound, I am eagerly open to other crossings and paths. Rekko
Melchizedek 07-18-07, 01:41 PM	I'd have to say that rebuilding the bridge between Thaliost and Rekkenmark would be the most viable route. It would involve rebuilding both the lightning rail line and the foot/cart path as part of one large bridge (this is what I imagine it originally was). This would complete both the lightning rail and the caravan routes (the methods of travel most people can afford). It would be much too expensive/dangerous/unpredictable to set up a lightning rail through the mournland; also, what little shipping continues across Kraken Bay is enough (few civilized poeple have any reason to need transportation to Valenar, Q'barra or the Talenta Plains, and the most direct route to the Mror Holds or the Lazhaar Principalities is through Karrnath). Let's face it, increased/steady transportation modes aren't in demand in the southeast. I see land routes more likely to be employed than sea routes. Thrane hates Karrnath, and would never devote resources to rebuilding its bridge. The Dragonmarked supplement mentions that House Orien wants to rebuild the bridge and resume its business transcontinental, but currently doesn't have the funds it needs for the project. So here's how I do it in my campaign: House Orien has (somehow) acquired the funds it needs to rebuild the White Arch Bridge, and has completed the reconstruction surprisingly quickly. Thrane claims that the house has no right to have done so without obtaining official permission (they had gotten permission from Karrnath, but not Thrane). House Orien cites that it had been permitted by pre-war Galifar to hold lightning rail lines in that area and that, since it has not actually moved its holdings, but simply rebuilt them, they are protected under the Korth Edicts. Kaius III argues that no matter what the legality of the action, it is clearly beneficial to the people of Khorvaire, and that Thrane needs to put aside its pride and allow it in the name of progress and peace. Thrane, already criticized and disliked by all of its neighbors, realizes its only choice is to quietly acquiesce. So all is well, or so it seems. Actually, House Orien received its funding from Queen Aurala, who is using the situation to undermine Thrane's power in the Thaliost region. So far, it's working.
Syltorian 07-18-07, 01:50 PM	I am focusing my question around crossing Scions Sound. First political agreements would be needed between Thrane and Karrnath or Aundair and Karrnath, and this is not an easy deal for a New War may be roaring sooner than later (maybe a few decades). Then, either rebuild the bridge and re-connect the Lightning Rail or open airship ports in Rekkenmark and border cities in Thrane (Thaliost) and Aundair. Rebuilding the White Bridge is difficult. There is obviously the problem of the bridge being an invasion route, and the fact that it might simply be blown up a year later with the new war. But despite the hatred between the two nations, I don't see the problem so much with Thrane or Karrnath. Both nations have rulers who genuinely desire peace, even if elements of their government are not so sure about that. Besides, the Karrns desperately need food supplies, and the lightning rail would be the easiest way of getting them there from the bread-baskets in the Reaches, Breland and Aundair. Orien's service has a higher capacity than Lyrandar's airships. Thrane would benefit from commercial taxes, too, helping its depleted finances. Where I see the problem is Aundair. To rebuild the White Arch Bridge, you require peace in Thaliost, otherwise the rail is going sabotaged once a month; even if it does work, it profits Thrane and Karrnath commercially. Aundair does not want peace in Thaliost, nor does Aurala have any real interest in peace in Khorvaire in general, never mind other nations starting to have links. She will sabotage the entire undertaking from the outset. And then there is the problem of the money. The White Arch Bridge was huge. Its span is impossible without major magical achievements, probably not doable without Cannith which is currently split. Even if Cannith could put their effort into this, it will be expensive... and Thrane has heavy war debts, Karrnath is probably not in a different situation, and Orien is heavily hit by the losses of some lines (White Arch Bridge and Mournland, but also smaller lines such as Fairhaven-Flamekeep). I don't think anyone can really afford it at the moment. There is no central Galifarian throne that could channel funds into this. Now, airship towers might work. But Orien is going to try and sabotage them as much as it can. They most likely still want the connection to be rebuilt eventually, not to be made superfluous and overtaken yet again by the House of Storm. So, airships would be good for the nobility and the richer merchants to travel from the big cities to other big cities, but not for mass transit. Airships do not have the capacity for major cargo transports, either, and are too rare to do much. So, personally, I'd say that things arrive in the Thrane ports, such as Thaliost or Flamekeep (which has a very protected little inlet, almost like Constantinople's Golden Horn), is transferred to ships with some taxes for Thrane's money chests, and then shipped over the sound to the Karrn ports. Similarly, the Karrn produce would be shipped over the sound the other way. In either direction, Thrane is in a good position, since most goods have to pass through that nation. It could do wonders for Thrane's economy, and there will be a few good stuff involving smuggling, too. As for moving along the northern or southern coasts... they are infested with pirates, tend to have bad weather (especially the north), and there are no ports. Karrnath does not even have a southern sea coast, and would have to go through Valenar (with whom they are mostly at war), Q'Barra (mostly jungle and difficult to travel through), or the Lhazaar Principalities (pirates and shifting alliances; might work for smuggling, but not major shipment). So, in essence: Regular Travelers/Commercial Transport: Get to the Thrane coast, then cross with a regular ship. Expect high taxes, but Flamekeep has a bustling harbour, so ships should be getting in and out on a good basis: again, looking at the Five Nations map, I've always been struck as Flamekeep being basically Constantinople and the Golden Horn, and that includes its role as a bridgehead. High-Class Travelers/Tourism: Lyrandar airship. I'd say that tourism, in Khorvaire, is something only the richer people do anyway, so you might as well take a flying cruise-ship while you are at it, and enjoy the ride. There'll be fewer of these, of course, but that's still the point of airships. They are an exclusive way of travelling, not a major freight company.
Alex_ 07-18-07, 03:13 PM	It's of my opinion that the "average" person doesn't go as easily from east to west. The most practical methods are by air or by sea, which are costlier than overland travel. This fact is what keeps Karrnath looking creepy and mysterious. Few people from Aundair, Thrane, and Breland ever go over there, and few Karrnathis ever visit them, at least not compared to often they mingle with one another. They could be doing anything over there, and the rest of the world would be largely unaware. That leaves Karrnath as the superpower on it's side of the continent, exerting influence over the nearby geo-political regions, while maintaining tense relations with the west. Karrnath thematically is to the rest of Khorvaire as Soviet Russia is to WWII Europe in many action, pulp, and thriller works. PCs, being the heroes of the story, will get to where they need to go. Imagine how dull Star Wars would have been if Luke and Obi-Wan had managed to secure a transport because it cost too much, or if James Bond could never actually make it into Russia because of complication like being unable to buy a train ticket. If they need to get to Karrnath, Q'barra, the Talenta Plains, or Lazhaar Principalities, they will get there, whether it be by Airship (no matter how rare), sailing vessel (stormships make the trip weeks or even mere days long), or by braving the Mournland or trying to cross what is effectively a demilitarized zone between Thrane and Karrnath. All options, even if they aren't overland, should be equally accessible and exciting.
yossarius 07-20-07, 06:03 PM	I was thinking about this a few weeks ago, and an idea came to me. When the mourning happened, the dead-grey mist stopped moving forward when it met a significantly deep body of water (Cyre River, Lake Cyre, Scion Sound, and Kraken Bay). If this indicates that the mourning effect is effectively foiled by deep waters (I'm not saying it does, I'm just theorizing here), it might be possible to dig a very deep canal between Scion Sound and Lake Cyre, effectively bisecting the Mournlands, and in theory the waterway would no long be part of the Mournlands. Of course, such a canal would takes years to build (considering the lethality of the worksite, possibly decades), as we are talking about a canal at least 500 miles long, maybe a mile wide, and at least 60 feet deep. That's alot of dirt to move. The use of magic would certianly speed the process, although make it more expensive. This begs the question, though: If you could flood the entire Mournland under 60 feet of water, would the Mourning effect simply disipate? Naturally, this would also be a monumental undertaking, but certainly not impossible (given the possibility of epic level spells, after all). Just a thought.
Godu 07-20-07, 07:50 PM	I would think that you could hop a boat to Thronehold and then another from there to Aundair, Thrane, or Karrnath. I also think that the characters could either contact smugglers or even fishermen out to make an extra gold or so to get across the various water routes in the north. Which might be an adventure in and of itself. All this should be fairly affordable, as long as the characters are not trying to do it secretly.
yossarius 07-20-07, 08:58 PM	I would think that you could hop a boat to Thronehold and then another from there to Aundair, Thrane, or Karrnath. I also think that the characters could either contact smugglers or even fishermen out to make an extra gold or so to get across the various water routes in the north. Which might be an adventure in and of itself. All this should be fairly affordable, as long as the characters are not trying to do it secretly. This is certainly true, but I think the OP was referring to how to make the entire continent one large international community, rather that two that are divided by the Mournlands. Naturally, the PCs are going to find a way to travel from one side to the other, going through the Mournlands if they feel like it, avoiding it if they don't. But the question is, how do traded goods (let's say fine Karrn ales) get to Sharn without being prohibitively expensive due to the circuitious nature of sailing halfway around the continent? This issue probably doesn't directly concern the PCs, but does every conversation have to?
Rekko 07-20-07, 10:44 PM	well you are both right. I am trying to figure out multiple ways that the PCs would travel from West to East and from East to West. Also and mostly, I am trying to figure out ways that trade roads would go back and forth between West and East, noble travel and tourism. Rekko
Revvecor 07-20-07, 10:57 PM	Also and mostly, I am trying to figure out ways that trade roads would go back and forth between West and East, noble travel and tourism. If you look at some of the large maps of Khorvaire, they show the conductor stone paths and trade routes. (if you don't have them pm and i can email them to you)
Alex_ 07-20-07, 11:17 PM	But the question is, how do traded goods (let's say fine Karrn ales) get to Sharn without being prohibitively expensive due to the circuitious nature of sailing halfway around the continent? It's not as expensive as you think. More specifically, Stormships make travel by sea much much quicker, cutting down on costs, and airships open up trade via air routes. They aren't as cheap as overland travel, making it so that the volume of trade between the east and west can never be equal to trade with it's own side, but they keep it from being largely impossible or economically unfeasible on any level. Even if its borders aren't directly touching, Karrnath isn't that far away. You're not going to be able to get your hands on Karrnathi Darkwood ale as easily as you could some Aundairan wines, but that doesn't mean ale from Karrnath is impossible to get. Darkwood ale and Karrnathi cheeses might cost a bit more, but apparently it's worth it. Khorvaire does have a thriving middle class economy in the Five Nations. If you think trade with Karrnath is that much of an issue, shipping anything from Xen'drik (Syberis shards, artifacts, etc), Aerenal (wood and woodcrafts, Valenar and their horses), or Sarlonna must be downright impossible.
yossarius 07-24-07, 01:40 PM	The only way I can think of the accomplish this inexpensively is to secure the right of passage through the Mournland from the Lord of Blades (assuming this is even possible; every DM seems to have a different perspective on him, and in some campaigns he may just not reasonable enough to make any kind of deal with any humanoids). Even still, this would be an expensive prospect, but probably not as expensive ocean travel. Other than that, there must be some sea trade through Scion sound, between Thrane and Karrnath, although between the violent nature of the water and the tension between the two nations, I can't imagine much trade actually occurs.
Alex_ 07-24-07, 06:50 PM	The only way I can think of the accomplish this inexpensively is to secure the right of passage through the Mournland from the Lord of Blades You'd also have to defend against the Carrion crabs, Cadaver Collectors, Undead, Living Spells, mutated former Cyrans, all other kinds of freaky monsters and the fact that simply being exposed to the mists of the Mournland eliminates natural and magical healing processes and is just generally not healthy, transforming some into hideous monsters. Might as way run a highway through Chernobyl.
yossarius 07-24-07, 08:13 PM	Oh, yeah. I forgot about that part.
Rekko 07-25-07, 04:57 PM	On the Lord of Blades securing a trade passage through the Mournland. It all depends on how you play your Lord of Blades. If he's the flesh-hater-attack-on-sight, it may not be possible unless he is defeated and most of his most trusted followers managed with. If he's the flesh-hater-attack-them-if-they-insult-or-bother-me, it might be possible since he could figure out a way to turn this need into profit. Make it a tax payed in gold, artifact, magic items, ressources, warforged, etc. However, it should not be too costy so that the other nation accept the deal, but still a good profit source in time to turn against the flesh bags that annoys him. It also depends if you chosed to make him Bulwark or Aaren d'Cannith as a Reforged Mastermaker, or anyone else that could have alligences to either a nation or house. Rekko
yossarius 07-25-07, 05:36 PM	Upon another close inspection of my map, I noticed that the Aundair River runsfrom Scion Sound all the way to Fairhaven. It seems likely that most trade between Karrnath and Breland & Aundair probably passes through here. I would imagine that the ships would be subject to inspection while on the part of the river controlled by Thrane (part of it is, right? I'm looking at the poster map, which doesn't show political boundaries), which I'm sure would be an inconvenience, and possibly even be subject to theft from the occasional corrupt cardinal, but for the most part would probably be the best way to go. Not a perfect solution by any means, but seemingly the best available under present circumstances.