The Dreaming Dark series...questions I have! [Archive] - Wizards Community

The Dreaming Dark series...questions I have! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
GarnathFrostmantle
01-22-08, 03:06 PM Mr. Baker and other forum members…I have a series questions.

Maybe I missed the queue, or haven’t read the right books, or maybe I just read through it to fast and have to go back and try again. I have questions about “The Dreaming Dark” Series that need a little help

Lei d'Cannith - Did I miss the explanation of what she is? Or did her parents just view her as another creation? (I thought she was half giant there for a bit.)

Xu'Sassar – at the end of the third book… WHO knocked her out? What happened during the time when Diane, Pierce, and Lei were in the dream realm?

Diane – who laid the sword sheath out next to him?

All – How did they get home? Did they? Are we going to get a new series of them traveling through Sarlona on the way home? Since the series took us all over the world, can we get to Argonnessen?

I have many more, but these are the first few that can come to my head.
Thank you for any clarification you can help out with.
Hellcow
01-22-08, 04:00 PM The end of The Gates of Night is not intended to be the end of these character's adventures. All of your questions have answers, and I've seen people come to the right conclusions - but since they will be revealed in stories to come, I'd rather let people speculate than to spoil things. What I will say is that the events of the last book are the result of plots that develop throughout the series. If you look closely, you'll find the seeds setting things in motion in City of Towers; the strange conclusion doesn't come completely out of the blue.

My next novel follows a different path, so I can't tell you precisely when the story of the Dreaming Dark crew will be revolved. But I do have plans for them all, and I look forward to returning to them in the future. And until then, I'm certainly interested in hearing how others might answer your questions!
Zippis
01-22-08, 07:14 PM As I just finished reading and my memories are still fresh ...

Lei d'Cannith - Did I miss the explanation of what she is? Or did her parents just view her as another creation? (I thought she was half giant there for a bit.).

Lei ... warforged with some human template (or vice versa)? Based on her parents discoveries from Xen'drik ...

Xu'Sassar – at the end of the third book… WHO knocked her out? What happened during the time when Diane, Pierce, and Lei were in the dream realm?.

And where is Kin? Why some Conjuration circle? Or perhaps binding circle?Looks like Daine returned alone, without Jode. Did someone helped him back through conjuration Or is is a way how to get Jode back?

Diane – who laid the sword sheath out next to him?.

Someone from Fey-world probably ... Kin/another Dusk Queen messenger?

All – How did they get home? Did they? Are we going to get a new series of them traveling through Sarlona on the way home? Since the series took us all over the world, can we get to Argonnessen?.

Lei and Pierce were pulled back when Shira vanished, connection was broken. Daine/Jode ... who knows. Through Conjuration/binding circle?

Are Lei's parents really and completly dead??
GarnathFrostmantle
01-23-08, 11:26 AM I think I need to go back and re read.
SOOO glad there is going to be more storyline with them.

I grew up with the dragonlance series. . All of it.
So I'm looking at this series as I looked at that cast.
As my favorites.

Thank you for the other questions/answers Zippis.
I had forgotten about Kin. It would make sense that he might have slipped through and helped out.

And Lei as a warforge/human template - I had thought about that, but what could they add to a warforge to adjust the skin to human flesh and blood. That's the part that voided that idea.
But then again, there are still many things undiscovered in Ebberon.
Smug
01-23-08, 01:05 PM Lei d'Cannith - Did I miss the explanation of what she is? Or did her parents just view her as another creation?
Look at all her "memories" together, across all the books. Her parents created a lot of odd warforged. As I read it, Harmattan, Pierce, and Lei were all "warforged" created using knowledge gained from Xen'drik. I'd assume that Lei is the warforged equivalent of a flesh golem - not simply a warforged with skin over the metal (let's face it, she can eat and presumably goes to the bathroom), but a living contruct made of flesh and blood. The main question as I see it is how this makes her different from a human and why her parents were so afraid of discovery... and called her "the most dangerous thing they'd ever made". As I read it, she also repaired a warforged as a "child" - something others attributed to an early manifestation of a dragonmark, but she didn't have a dragonmark at the time. So she's clearly got some degree of innate artificer ability.

Xu'Sassar – at the end of the third book… WHO knocked her out? What happened during the time when Diane, Pierce, and Lei were in the dream realm?
If I had to guess, I'd say that Kin knocked out Xu'sasar, put the sword sheath next to Daine (since Kin was carrying it) and painting the summoning circle around him. "Why" is a different question, of course.

All – How did they get home? Did they?
They're definitely still in Sarlona. Pierce and Lei just "woke up" when Shira's connection to Dal Quor was broken. As for Daine, I think the big unknown at this point is whether he DID get home... or whether that's someone else in Daine's body.
Nanyea
01-23-08, 03:38 PM This was one of the series (besides the Investigator ones) that really hooked me on Eberron, mostly because of the mysterious magic and the intermingling of psionics and powerful conspiracies...

Happy to hear that our heroes will continue to have depth and a place in the setting...
Edymnion
01-23-08, 07:50 PM Lei d'Cannith - Did I miss the explanation of what she is? Or did her parents just view her as another creation? (I thought she was half giant there for a bit.)No, but given the fact that she can use a Repair X Damage infusion on herself directly, she must be of the Construct type. Ever see Armitage III: Polymatrix? Looks like we got us a third.
Xu'Sassar – at the end of the third book… WHO knocked her out? What happened during the time when Diane, Pierce, and Lei were in the dream realm?

Diane – who laid the sword sheath out next to him?You read everything we did, you know for a fact everything that we know. The obvious answer is that Kin did it, but we don't know WHY.
All – How did they get home? Did they?They got home as far as getting back to their real bodies in Sarlona. Beyond that, they haven't.

And general consensus is that it is *NOT* Daine that woke up. The sword sheath next to him, which came from a grave? Yeah, I'd bet dollars to donuts that Kin just used the oppertunity to have somebody else take posession of Daine's body while he's out tripping the light fantastic with Jode in Dal Quor.
Durskut
01-29-08, 09:13 PM i know i'm pumped for all the eberron i can get my hands on, especially novels of Dreaming Dark caliber.

however, i was most excited by the ending of the series for a simple reason: it seemed "Eberron" to me. the "PCs" stopped the big bads and the material plane will not go to "hell" (Khyber?) and this event ends the "game." i look at the ending and think, "the Ultimate cliffhanger" and a way i intend to end a campaign with one day.
Edymnion
01-31-08, 09:52 PM however, i was most excited by the ending of the series for a simple reason: it seemed "Eberron" to me. the "PCs" stopped the big bads and the material plane will not go to "hell" (Khyber?) and this event ends the "game." i look at the ending and think, "the Ultimate cliffhanger" and a way i intend to end a campaign with one day.Always leave 'em wanting more.

The cliffhanger is classic pulp in it's purest form, and still used in modern pop culture. I mean, how many modern horror/slasher films have you seen that don't leave an opening for a sequel? The Nightmare on Elm Streets were especially famous for this tactic, with Freddy always coming back after his apparent defeat in the last few seconds of the film, leaving us on a cliffhanger.

Jason X had Jason "die" in re-entry, but then we saw his mask land in the water, the implication being that he could still regenerate himself on this new planet and keep on killing. A cliffhanger.

I personally loved it that the series ended the way it did. It was perfect.
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi
02-03-08, 01:54 PM My own opinion has always been that Lei is an application of the magic that animates warforged to rescue a stillborn or miscarried child. The implication that her parents kept failing to conceive implied to me miscarriage or stillborn, rather than just never getting pregnant. Also, it's very nice because it leaves us with the question of what effects might it have had on Lei's mother to be put through the forge to "revive" the unborn fetus. Also, I presumed even House Cannith isn't so wrapped in what they're doing to not notice that Lei's mother suddenly gave birth to a child without ever looking pregnant.
Cloud Divider
02-05-08, 07:28 PM My own opinion has always been that Lei is an application of the magic that animates warforged to rescue a stillborn or miscarried child. The implication that her parents kept failing to conceive implied to me miscarriage or stillborn, rather than just never getting pregnant. Also, it's very nice because it leaves us with the question of what effects might it have had on Lei's mother to be put through the forge to "revive" the unborn fetus. Also, I presumed even House Cannith isn't so wrapped in what they're doing to not notice that Lei's mother suddenly gave birth to a child without ever looking pregnant.
Actually, there's an interesting thought...

Lei is the result of an Eldritch Machine used to reincarnate the miscarried/stillborn dragonmarked child into the form of a(n) (unusual) warforged. Based on other threads, if you were dragonmarked, and got reincarnated into a badger, or elf, or whatever, you would actually keep whatever original dragonmarked ability you had in your original form. So that would explain how Lei is able to manifest the Maker's Mark.

Alternatively, Lei's parents made an even more spectacular breakthrough than even Aaren d'Cannith, and "invented" the Third Generation Warforged...
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi
02-06-08, 03:56 PM Actually, there's an interesting thought...

Lei is the result of an Eldritch Machine used to reincarnate the miscarried/stillborn dragonmarked child into the form of a(n) (unusual) warforged. Based on other threads, if you were dragonmarked, and got reincarnated into a badger, or elf, or whatever, you would actually keep whatever original dragonmarked ability you had in your original form. So that would explain how Lei is able to manifest the Maker's Mark.

Alternatively, Lei's parents made an even more spectacular breakthrough than even Aaren d'Cannith, and "invented" the Third Generation Warforged...

That'd work nice, but there's this one flashback scene in the third book when Lei healed this warforged at a young age. Her father felt they had to destroy her to cover it up, and say it was the stress of manifesting a dragonmark at such a young age. Her parents then realize they could just create an artificial dragonmark and use the same explanation. I believe it's more than implied that her dragonmark isn't a real dragonmark. Also, I like this explanation because it'll take down the mixed blood barrier between her and Daine, once they figure out the truth.
UCsimplyme
02-14-08, 04:52 PM From my assessment of the story, here is what I came away with:

1) Kin knocked out Xu, placed the sword and performed the ritual.

2) Daine's consciousness is trapped in Dal Quor with Jode because the ritual displaced it.

3) The Sleeper (?) has been awoken in Daine's body. This was the role of Flamewind all along; guiding these heros to travel to Dal Quor and allow the agents of the queen to requisition the body of a modern war hero for an ancient one.

4) The companions are now traveling with not-Daine. They don't know this yet but my guess is they'll figure it out pretty quick.

Here are my questions:

A) Jode's consciousness is with Daine in Dal Quor. It/he never travelled to Dolurhh (?). Is he dead? Are they able to inhabit other bodies? How about Warforged?

B) Daine's Mark: Obviously Aberrant...or is it? Could this have simply been a mark of the prophesy which "marked" the future vessel of the sleeper? Or both?

C) Where does the Traveler factor in here? As a consummate shapeshifter, I have a suspicion that his role is more prominent than we might have previously suspected. I suspect that he is one of our characters (items?) that we might have encountered already. Kin? Xu's Weapon? I'm not sure of specifics but I am sure that there is more story line here than we have uncovered.

It has been almost a year since I read all of the books. I am gonna have to go back and read through them again. I look forward future tales of these adventurers.
Edymnion
02-14-08, 08:39 PM C) Where does the Traveler factor in here? As a consummate shapeshifter, I have a suspicion that his role is more prominent than we might have previously suspected. I suspect that he is one of our characters (items?) that we might have encountered already. Kin? Xu's Weapon? I'm not sure of specifics but I am sure that there is more story line here than we have uncovered.Its Keith's novels, don't expect anything about the Traveller. The very core of Eberron religion is the idea that the gods do not interact with anything mortals experience, either because they don't exist, are remote, or whatever else.

So, if the Traveller really is in the stories somewhere, we'll never know it.
Belabras
02-14-08, 11:33 PM Its Keith's novels, don't expect anything about the Traveller. The very core of Eberron religion is the idea that the gods do not interact with anything mortals experience, either because they don't exist, are remote, or whatever else.

So, if the Traveller really is in the stories somewhere, we'll never know it.

Except that Xu get's the Traveller's Tooth from some unknown source in the last book. That seems to be a pretty overt action on the part of whatever divine energy comprises the Traveller.
Gleemin
02-14-08, 11:55 PM Its Keith's novels, don't expect anything about the Traveller. The very core of Eberron religion is the idea that the gods do not interact with anything mortals experience, either because they don't exist, are remote, or whatever else.
But the Traveler is described as an exception to this rule. Straight from the ECS, "The Traveler is said to walk the land in a thousand disguises" - while we don't hear stories of Dol Dorn walking the world in any form. So from the start, the Traveler is an unusual being.

However, I don't think this contradicts or challenges Eberron's basic approach to the gods; instead, I think that it means that what the stories call "the Traveler" isn't a god at all, but rather one or more beings using the identity as a mask. UCsimplyme points out that Flamewind sets things in motion and is likely an agent of Thelania. So is Thelania the Traveler? Or are both Thelania and Flamewind the Traveler? Certainly there are suggestions - the minotaur and ogress that share coloration - that Flamewind may in fact be a "consummate shapechanger".

And speaking of travelers, on page 132 of GoN, when Daine approaches the snake (the "Keeper of Secrets"), it says "I give you greetings, traveler." As the people cross, it uses the same refrain - "Person X, tell me truly, something about your journey." But the descriptor is different for each. Xu'sasar is "child of the scorpion". Lei is "shaper". And Daine? He's "traveler". He's also addressed as such by a quori, a unicorn, and the draconic eidolon. So who's the Traveler among them? Maybe it's Daine himself. If so, the interesting part is that the eidolon initially calls him a traveler - which could again suggest that the thousand faces of the Traveler aren't necessarily the result of shapechanging, but rather because the "god" is multiple people.

Coming back to the role of the gods, however, I'd look to the draconic eidolon. When they approach it, they are challenged by an aggressive silver dragon - the dragon associated with the war god Dol Dorn. When it chooses to talk to them about the Dreaming Dark, it takes on the appearance of a blue dragon - the form of Aureon. At the very end, when it breathes on Daine, it starts changing form... and every form is a match for one of the Sovereigns or Six. First we get copper (Boldrei), bronze (Arawai), red (Dol Arrah), and green (Balinor)... all standard dragon colors, so it could easily be coincidental. Then we have a dracolich (the Keeper) and shadow dragon (the Shadow), which are a little more unusual. Beyond that, however, it is shifting shape - which is the hallmark of the Traveler, the sole member of Sovereigns and Six NOT associated with a single draconic form.

I doubt that we're supposed to read this as "They were dealing with the gods." I'm sure it was supposed to be just what it appeared to be - an amalgamation of draconic souls. But another thread has already addressed the possibility that the gods ARE amalgamations of souls, as seen in the Silver Flame and the Undying Court. It may not be THE gods, or a god as an FR fan would think of it - but I think it's shortsighted to assume that just because Keith Baker isn't going to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the gods do exist, he'll also avoid anything suggesting that they might. I think the hand of the Traveler is at work in the trilogy... but what I think we'll find is that he/she is not a god.
Smug
02-15-08, 12:31 AM There's also the question of the religion of Lei's parents - which I'd argue is the worship of the Traveler. On page 168, there's an interchange in which Talin talks about "the gifts of their lord" - and how Aleisa is wise to distrust them. On page 179, Aleisa says "What of our faith? This is a challenge... there must be another path, a way to emerge from this stronger than before." This is echoed by Talin's words on page 321 regarding the Mourning - "I never expected something of this magnitude, but think of the possibilities. Think of what this will do to the people of Eberron."

People have complained a few times that Keith is teasing us because it's always been said that the secret of the Mourning would never be revealed, and he's responded by saying that Talin's answer can be true without changing that. I think that's because Talin is talking about the Traveler. He DOESN'T know what caused the Mourning; what he knows is that it's something the Traveler would do, bringing dangerous opportunity and change that forces people to evolve or suffer. We're told to beware the gifts of the Traveler, but as Aleisa says, it's all a matter of opportunity - of finding the path that will cause you to come out stronger than before.

So I think Lei herself is a gift of the Traveler - and as such, the most dangerous thing her parents ever created. Edymnion's still right, in as much as I doubt we'll ever MEET a god as such... but I also think that Gleemin is correct that just because gods don't exist in the same way that they do in FR rules out the idea of encountering something serving as a hand of the deity, whether it is or not. Hellcow's already talked about the fact that spells like commune deal with outsiders who "serve" the gods - it's just that even these outsiders don't physically hang out with the gods, but are rather dedicated to their cause and ideals.

So I don't think THE Traveler is in the books, because THE Traveler is an ideal. But I think it's quite possible that at least one of the characters in the books is an agent of the Traveler - which is exactly the sort of thing that generates all those myths about it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GarnathFrostmantle 01-22-08, 03:06 PM	Mr. Baker and other forum members…I have a series questions. Maybe I missed the queue, or haven’t read the right books, or maybe I just read through it to fast and have to go back and try again. I have questions about “The Dreaming Dark” Series that need a little help Lei d'Cannith - Did I miss the explanation of what she is? Or did her parents just view her as another creation? (I thought she was half giant there for a bit.) Xu'Sassar – at the end of the third book… WHO knocked her out? What happened during the time when Diane, Pierce, and Lei were in the dream realm? Diane – who laid the sword sheath out next to him? All – How did they get home? Did they? Are we going to get a new series of them traveling through Sarlona on the way home? Since the series took us all over the world, can we get to Argonnessen? I have many more, but these are the first few that can come to my head. Thank you for any clarification you can help out with.
Hellcow 01-22-08, 04:00 PM	The end of The Gates of Night is not intended to be the end of these character's adventures. All of your questions have answers, and I've seen people come to the right conclusions - but since they will be revealed in stories to come, I'd rather let people speculate than to spoil things. What I will say is that the events of the last book are the result of plots that develop throughout the series. If you look closely, you'll find the seeds setting things in motion in City of Towers; the strange conclusion doesn't come completely out of the blue. My next novel follows a different path, so I can't tell you precisely when the story of the Dreaming Dark crew will be revolved. But I do have plans for them all, and I look forward to returning to them in the future. And until then, I'm certainly interested in hearing how others might answer your questions!
Zippis 01-22-08, 07:14 PM	As I just finished reading and my memories are still fresh ... Lei d'Cannith - Did I miss the explanation of what she is? Or did her parents just view her as another creation? (I thought she was half giant there for a bit.). Lei ... warforged with some human template (or vice versa)? Based on her parents discoveries from Xen'drik ... Xu'Sassar – at the end of the third book… WHO knocked her out? What happened during the time when Diane, Pierce, and Lei were in the dream realm?. And where is Kin? Why some Conjuration circle? Or perhaps binding circle?Looks like Daine returned alone, without Jode. Did someone helped him back through conjuration Or is is a way how to get Jode back? Diane – who laid the sword sheath out next to him?. Someone from Fey-world probably ... Kin/another Dusk Queen messenger? All – How did they get home? Did they? Are we going to get a new series of them traveling through Sarlona on the way home? Since the series took us all over the world, can we get to Argonnessen?. Lei and Pierce were pulled back when Shira vanished, connection was broken. Daine/Jode ... who knows. Through Conjuration/binding circle? Are Lei's parents really and completly dead??
GarnathFrostmantle 01-23-08, 11:26 AM	I think I need to go back and re read. SOOO glad there is going to be more storyline with them. I grew up with the dragonlance series. . All of it. So I'm looking at this series as I looked at that cast. As my favorites. Thank you for the other questions/answers Zippis. I had forgotten about Kin. It would make sense that he might have slipped through and helped out. And Lei as a warforge/human template - I had thought about that, but what could they add to a warforge to adjust the skin to human flesh and blood. That's the part that voided that idea. But then again, there are still many things undiscovered in Ebberon.
Smug 01-23-08, 01:05 PM	Lei d'Cannith - Did I miss the explanation of what she is? Or did her parents just view her as another creation? Look at all her "memories" together, across all the books. Her parents created a lot of odd warforged. As I read it, Harmattan, Pierce, and Lei were all "warforged" created using knowledge gained from Xen'drik. I'd assume that Lei is the warforged equivalent of a flesh golem - not simply a warforged with skin over the metal (let's face it, she can eat and presumably goes to the bathroom), but a living contruct made of flesh and blood. The main question as I see it is how this makes her different from a human and why her parents were so afraid of discovery... and called her "the most dangerous thing they'd ever made". As I read it, she also repaired a warforged as a "child" - something others attributed to an early manifestation of a dragonmark, but she didn't have a dragonmark at the time. So she's clearly got some degree of innate artificer ability. Xu'Sassar – at the end of the third book… WHO knocked her out? What happened during the time when Diane, Pierce, and Lei were in the dream realm? If I had to guess, I'd say that Kin knocked out Xu'sasar, put the sword sheath next to Daine (since Kin was carrying it) and painting the summoning circle around him. "Why" is a different question, of course. All – How did they get home? Did they? They're definitely still in Sarlona. Pierce and Lei just "woke up" when Shira's connection to Dal Quor was broken. As for Daine, I think the big unknown at this point is whether he DID get home... or whether that's someone else in Daine's body.
Nanyea 01-23-08, 03:38 PM	This was one of the series (besides the Investigator ones) that really hooked me on Eberron, mostly because of the mysterious magic and the intermingling of psionics and powerful conspiracies... Happy to hear that our heroes will continue to have depth and a place in the setting...
Edymnion 01-23-08, 07:50 PM	Lei d'Cannith - Did I miss the explanation of what she is? Or did her parents just view her as another creation? (I thought she was half giant there for a bit.)No, but given the fact that she can use a Repair X Damage infusion on herself directly, she must be of the Construct type. Ever see Armitage III: Polymatrix? Looks like we got us a third. Xu'Sassar – at the end of the third book… WHO knocked her out? What happened during the time when Diane, Pierce, and Lei were in the dream realm? Diane – who laid the sword sheath out next to him?You read everything we did, you know for a fact everything that we know. The obvious answer is that Kin did it, but we don't know WHY. All – How did they get home? Did they?They got home as far as getting back to their real bodies in Sarlona. Beyond that, they haven't. And general consensus is that it is NOT Daine that woke up. The sword sheath next to him, which came from a grave? Yeah, I'd bet dollars to donuts that Kin just used the oppertunity to have somebody else take posession of Daine's body while he's out tripping the light fantastic with Jode in Dal Quor.
Durskut 01-29-08, 09:13 PM	i know i'm pumped for all the eberron i can get my hands on, especially novels of Dreaming Dark caliber. however, i was most excited by the ending of the series for a simple reason: it seemed "Eberron" to me. the "PCs" stopped the big bads and the material plane will not go to "hell" (Khyber?) and this event ends the "game." i look at the ending and think, "the Ultimate cliffhanger" and a way i intend to end a campaign with one day.
Edymnion 01-31-08, 09:52 PM	however, i was most excited by the ending of the series for a simple reason: it seemed "Eberron" to me. the "PCs" stopped the big bads and the material plane will not go to "hell" (Khyber?) and this event ends the "game." i look at the ending and think, "the Ultimate cliffhanger" and a way i intend to end a campaign with one day.Always leave 'em wanting more. The cliffhanger is classic pulp in it's purest form, and still used in modern pop culture. I mean, how many modern horror/slasher films have you seen that don't leave an opening for a sequel? The Nightmare on Elm Streets were especially famous for this tactic, with Freddy always coming back after his apparent defeat in the last few seconds of the film, leaving us on a cliffhanger. Jason X had Jason "die" in re-entry, but then we saw his mask land in the water, the implication being that he could still regenerate himself on this new planet and keep on killing. A cliffhanger. I personally loved it that the series ended the way it did. It was perfect.
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 02-03-08, 01:54 PM	My own opinion has always been that Lei is an application of the magic that animates warforged to rescue a stillborn or miscarried child. The implication that her parents kept failing to conceive implied to me miscarriage or stillborn, rather than just never getting pregnant. Also, it's very nice because it leaves us with the question of what effects might it have had on Lei's mother to be put through the forge to "revive" the unborn fetus. Also, I presumed even House Cannith isn't so wrapped in what they're doing to not notice that Lei's mother suddenly gave birth to a child without ever looking pregnant.
Cloud Divider 02-05-08, 07:28 PM	My own opinion has always been that Lei is an application of the magic that animates warforged to rescue a stillborn or miscarried child. The implication that her parents kept failing to conceive implied to me miscarriage or stillborn, rather than just never getting pregnant. Also, it's very nice because it leaves us with the question of what effects might it have had on Lei's mother to be put through the forge to "revive" the unborn fetus. Also, I presumed even House Cannith isn't so wrapped in what they're doing to not notice that Lei's mother suddenly gave birth to a child without ever looking pregnant. Actually, there's an interesting thought... Lei is the result of an Eldritch Machine used to reincarnate the miscarried/stillborn dragonmarked child into the form of a(n) (unusual) warforged. Based on other threads, if you were dragonmarked, and got reincarnated into a badger, or elf, or whatever, you would actually keep whatever original dragonmarked ability you had in your original form. So that would explain how Lei is able to manifest the Maker's Mark. Alternatively, Lei's parents made an even more spectacular breakthrough than even Aaren d'Cannith, and "invented" the Third Generation Warforged...
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 02-06-08, 03:56 PM	Actually, there's an interesting thought... Lei is the result of an Eldritch Machine used to reincarnate the miscarried/stillborn dragonmarked child into the form of a(n) (unusual) warforged. Based on other threads, if you were dragonmarked, and got reincarnated into a badger, or elf, or whatever, you would actually keep whatever original dragonmarked ability you had in your original form. So that would explain how Lei is able to manifest the Maker's Mark. Alternatively, Lei's parents made an even more spectacular breakthrough than even Aaren d'Cannith, and "invented" the Third Generation Warforged... That'd work nice, but there's this one flashback scene in the third book when Lei healed this warforged at a young age. Her father felt they had to destroy her to cover it up, and say it was the stress of manifesting a dragonmark at such a young age. Her parents then realize they could just create an artificial dragonmark and use the same explanation. I believe it's more than implied that her dragonmark isn't a real dragonmark. Also, I like this explanation because it'll take down the mixed blood barrier between her and Daine, once they figure out the truth.
UCsimplyme 02-14-08, 04:52 PM	From my assessment of the story, here is what I came away with: 1) Kin knocked out Xu, placed the sword and performed the ritual. 2) Daine's consciousness is trapped in Dal Quor with Jode because the ritual displaced it. 3) The Sleeper (?) has been awoken in Daine's body. This was the role of Flamewind all along; guiding these heros to travel to Dal Quor and allow the agents of the queen to requisition the body of a modern war hero for an ancient one. 4) The companions are now traveling with not-Daine. They don't know this yet but my guess is they'll figure it out pretty quick. Here are my questions: A) Jode's consciousness is with Daine in Dal Quor. It/he never travelled to Dolurhh (?). Is he dead? Are they able to inhabit other bodies? How about Warforged? B) Daine's Mark: Obviously Aberrant...or is it? Could this have simply been a mark of the prophesy which "marked" the future vessel of the sleeper? Or both? C) Where does the Traveler factor in here? As a consummate shapeshifter, I have a suspicion that his role is more prominent than we might have previously suspected. I suspect that he is one of our characters (items?) that we might have encountered already. Kin? Xu's Weapon? I'm not sure of specifics but I am sure that there is more story line here than we have uncovered. It has been almost a year since I read all of the books. I am gonna have to go back and read through them again. I look forward future tales of these adventurers.
Edymnion 02-14-08, 08:39 PM	C) Where does the Traveler factor in here? As a consummate shapeshifter, I have a suspicion that his role is more prominent than we might have previously suspected. I suspect that he is one of our characters (items?) that we might have encountered already. Kin? Xu's Weapon? I'm not sure of specifics but I am sure that there is more story line here than we have uncovered.Its Keith's novels, don't expect anything about the Traveller. The very core of Eberron religion is the idea that the gods do not interact with anything mortals experience, either because they don't exist, are remote, or whatever else. So, if the Traveller really is in the stories somewhere, we'll never know it.
Belabras 02-14-08, 11:33 PM	Its Keith's novels, don't expect anything about the Traveller. The very core of Eberron religion is the idea that the gods do not interact with anything mortals experience, either because they don't exist, are remote, or whatever else. So, if the Traveller really is in the stories somewhere, we'll never know it. Except that Xu get's the Traveller's Tooth from some unknown source in the last book. That seems to be a pretty overt action on the part of whatever divine energy comprises the Traveller.
Gleemin 02-14-08, 11:55 PM	Its Keith's novels, don't expect anything about the Traveller. The very core of Eberron religion is the idea that the gods do not interact with anything mortals experience, either because they don't exist, are remote, or whatever else. But the Traveler is described as an exception to this rule. Straight from the ECS, "The Traveler is said to walk the land in a thousand disguises" - while we don't hear stories of Dol Dorn walking the world in any form. So from the start, the Traveler is an unusual being. However, I don't think this contradicts or challenges Eberron's basic approach to the gods; instead, I think that it means that what the stories call "the Traveler" isn't a god at all, but rather one or more beings using the identity as a mask. UCsimplyme points out that Flamewind sets things in motion and is likely an agent of Thelania. So is Thelania the Traveler? Or are both Thelania and Flamewind the Traveler? Certainly there are suggestions - the minotaur and ogress that share coloration - that Flamewind may in fact be a "consummate shapechanger". And speaking of travelers, on page 132 of GoN, when Daine approaches the snake (the "Keeper of Secrets"), it says "I give you greetings, traveler." As the people cross, it uses the same refrain - "Person X, tell me truly, something about your journey." But the descriptor is different for each. Xu'sasar is "child of the scorpion". Lei is "shaper". And Daine? He's "traveler". He's also addressed as such by a quori, a unicorn, and the draconic eidolon. So who's the Traveler among them? Maybe it's Daine himself. If so, the interesting part is that the eidolon initially calls him a traveler - which could again suggest that the thousand faces of the Traveler aren't necessarily the result of shapechanging, but rather because the "god" is multiple people. Coming back to the role of the gods, however, I'd look to the draconic eidolon. When they approach it, they are challenged by an aggressive silver dragon - the dragon associated with the war god Dol Dorn. When it chooses to talk to them about the Dreaming Dark, it takes on the appearance of a blue dragon - the form of Aureon. At the very end, when it breathes on Daine, it starts changing form... and every form is a match for one of the Sovereigns or Six. First we get copper (Boldrei), bronze (Arawai), red (Dol Arrah), and green (Balinor)... all standard dragon colors, so it could easily be coincidental. Then we have a dracolich (the Keeper) and shadow dragon (the Shadow), which are a little more unusual. Beyond that, however, it is shifting shape - which is the hallmark of the Traveler, the sole member of Sovereigns and Six NOT associated with a single draconic form. I doubt that we're supposed to read this as "They were dealing with the gods." I'm sure it was supposed to be just what it appeared to be - an amalgamation of draconic souls. But another thread has already addressed the possibility that the gods ARE amalgamations of souls, as seen in the Silver Flame and the Undying Court. It may not be THE gods, or a god as an FR fan would think of it - but I think it's shortsighted to assume that just because Keith Baker isn't going to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the gods do exist, he'll also avoid anything suggesting that they might. I think the hand of the Traveler is at work in the trilogy... but what I think we'll find is that he/she is not a god.
Smug 02-15-08, 12:31 AM	There's also the question of the religion of Lei's parents - which I'd argue is the worship of the Traveler. On page 168, there's an interchange in which Talin talks about "the gifts of their lord" - and how Aleisa is wise to distrust them. On page 179, Aleisa says "What of our faith? This is a challenge... there must be another path, a way to emerge from this stronger than before." This is echoed by Talin's words on page 321 regarding the Mourning - "I never expected something of this magnitude, but think of the possibilities. Think of what this will do to the people of Eberron." People have complained a few times that Keith is teasing us because it's always been said that the secret of the Mourning would never be revealed, and he's responded by saying that Talin's answer can be true without changing that. I think that's because Talin is talking about the Traveler. He DOESN'T know what caused the Mourning; what he knows is that it's something the Traveler would do, bringing dangerous opportunity and change that forces people to evolve or suffer. We're told to beware the gifts of the Traveler, but as Aleisa says, it's all a matter of opportunity - of finding the path that will cause you to come out stronger than before. So I think Lei herself is a gift of the Traveler - and as such, the most dangerous thing her parents ever created. Edymnion's still right, in as much as I doubt we'll ever MEET a god as such... but I also think that Gleemin is correct that just because gods don't exist in the same way that they do in FR rules out the idea of encountering something serving as a hand of the deity, whether it is or not. Hellcow's already talked about the fact that spells like commune deal with outsiders who "serve" the gods - it's just that even these outsiders don't physically hang out with the gods, but are rather dedicated to their cause and ideals. So I don't think THE Traveler is in the books, because THE Traveler is an ideal. But I think it's quite possible that at least one of the characters in the books is an agent of the Traveler - which is exactly the sort of thing that generates all those myths about it.