Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Deus_Proelii 02-08-07, 03:09 PM	Considering the situation in Breland with the lack of a capable heir to follow King Boranel, which would be the most desirable outcome? 1. The continuation of the monarchy as it exists now? 2. The abolition or weakening of the monarchy so that power resides in the hands of a prime minister (bear in mind that the most likely PM of Breland is LE)? 3. Some other scenario that you can envision?
goblin_pride 02-08-07, 03:51 PM	3. Some other scenario that you can envision? Nothing to see here, move along, move along.
Darth Syntax 02-08-07, 04:06 PM	Indeed. Clearly an international crisis that leads to the formation of an independent and and anti-monarchical Thaliost (not to mention anti-theocratic), followed by general disruption and political chaos would have nothing to do with setting off the inevitable Brelish civil war. Clearly . . .:plotting:
Deus_Proelii 02-08-07, 04:13 PM	If the history of our world is any guide internal disruption and civil war tends to invite foreign intervention... it could lead to another big war as Aundair supports the "republicans" and Thrane, Q'barra, the Cyran Refugees and possibly Karnath back the Brelish throne.
Neutronium_Dragon 02-08-07, 05:42 PM	I'm not so sure that Aundair would back the republicans, at least not as long as Aurala is in charge. She's trying to maneuver herself onto the throne of Galifar by claiming noble birthright, which makes it a really bad idea to establish a non-monarchial precedent in Breland. Coupled with what's happened in Thrane, a Brelish repubic would make reforming Galifar as a kingdom (with herself at its head) darned near impossible.
DragoonDarkfire 02-08-07, 06:44 PM	It's obviously a new king would take over Breland who'd be a Swords of Liberty. They'll go to the far away Xen'drik civilization of Irraquallis and try to instigate democracy because of a supposed connection between them and the terrorist attack that destroyed one of the towers of Sharn during the last war. YAY FOR REAL LIFE EVENTS INSPIRING FANTASY!
Deus_Proelii 02-08-07, 11:07 PM	In the Five Nations supplement however it's stated that Aurala herself is secretly backing Lord Ruken ir'Clarn, the would-be prime minister of Breland. Also even if the anti-monarchist faction gains control, Breland need not necessarily become a republic, just a constitutional monarchy in which the king wields no real power.
Elemental_Elf 02-08-07, 11:17 PM	I don't see Q'Barra getting involved in the affairs, most esspecially wars, due to the fact they forsook the 5 nations, in favor of their own Nation. 9 times out of 10 Q'Barra would rather deal with Lhazaar, Sarlona or some other nation that isn't a direct link to old Galifar. Now as for a Breelish war, it could happen. Most likely Audair would support the Republican take over, though how far that support would stretch is yet to be seen. Thrane is still reeling from the last war, economically, no use going head long into another war. The interesting players in a Breelish civil war would be Droaam and Zilargo. Which side would those 2 nations side with? With the support of either, either faction would gain a huge advantage, most especially if that faction also controlled Sharn.
Cambian00 02-08-07, 11:59 PM	Of course Breland could become a Thrane-inspired Theocracy with Breland's Silver Flame Cardinal taking the secular seat as well as the spiritual. hehe...Wouldn't that be a twist
Elemental_Elf 02-09-07, 12:42 AM	Of course Breland could become a Thrane-inspired Theocracy with Breland's Silver Flame Cardinal taking the secular seat as well as the spiritual. hehe...Wouldn't that be a twist Ah but where would that little twist lead us? - War with Thrane because the Cardinal of Breland refuses to cede temporal authority to the Keeper? - The merger of Thrane and Breland into 1 nation? Thus causing war with other nations because of the appearance of such a powerful state? - Breland's Silver Flame Church decalres its independence from Thrane's, thus causing a schism with in the church? - Breland being broken up into Silver Flame, Republican and Monarchical sections? I mean, wow, what a turn of events that would be!
Cambian00 02-09-07, 09:15 AM	There are so many posibillities for that turn of events I couldn't even conceive of them all..... Think about all the monsters living in the Cogs under the City Proper. There could be a crusade to wipe them out similar to the one that nearly ended the Lycans. It would be way cool to find out...
Yakman 02-09-07, 10:47 AM	I don't see anything like that happening. There's no succession crisis in Breland. Boranel doesn't have a GREAT heir--but none of them are loony or inbred or cultists of the Dragon Below. most Kings aren't Great--they are just decent. Boranel, for obvious reasons, is going to be a hard act to follow, but his reign has legitimized the monarchy in Breland.
Neutronium_Dragon 02-09-07, 02:36 PM	> Think about all the monsters living in the Cogs under the City Proper. There > could be a crusade to wipe them out similar to the one that nearly ended the > Lycans. Doubtful. Apart from the fact that "people who happen to be evil" falls way down the priority list from "unnatural evil beings" as far as Flamers go, those creatures are rather crucial to the city's economy given that most of them work in the cogs, which gives them a certain measure of protection from arbitrary extermination.
wargod22 02-09-07, 02:40 PM	I have been thinking about starting a Brelish Civil War in my current campaign that I have just starting. So I was wondering if anyone had a good idea on how such a conflict might start. It seems most likely that any conflict would start after Boranel. It would be my guess that a conflict would only start if there was somehow a major break between the pro-monarchy and the pro-parliamentary faction, and of course there are other factions such as the Swords of Liberty and the Cyrian Refugees that might be instrumental in starting any conflict. Any heir to Boranel’s throne is inevitably going to get compared to Boranel, and those are going to be big shoes to fill. Chances are whichever child of Boranel’s that takes the throne isn’t going to look up to the task of running Breland. One of the bigger questions I have to ask is how is Ruken going to try and promote a parliamentary government without a king? Or at least to the point that he thinks he can gain enough support to think he can overthrow the pro-monarchy forces? It would seem like that would take some doing to do as things stand. In the event of a Brelish Civil War I see it as likely that Aundair would stand on the side of the Parliamentary forces, especially in getting the movement started in an attempt to try and weaken Breland. Aurala would likely try and get as much as she could out of any faction she decides to support. Darguun would also likely try and take advantage of the situation and invade eastern Breland, or even Zilargo in an attempt to expand their nation. I’m willing to bet that Zilargo would try and stay quite in the event of a war, much like they did in the Last War. Zilargo would likely support the faction that seemed most likely to win by selling war materials and maybe even intelligence data. If there doesn’t seem to be any clear cut winner, they may support the side that would be the most helpful to Zilargo. But chances are they would keep their own participation in a conflict to a minimum. Droaam is a bit of a wildcard in this considering it is hard to tell what the Daughters of Sora Kell are up to, but this would be an excellent opportunity to expand into eastern Breland. Karrnath may opt to stay out of the conflict, at least to start with considering there would be little for Kaius to gain out of it, though his warlords may seek to encourage him to participate in the conflict. It is also hard to say what Thrane will do. They still haven’t recovered completely from the Last War according to 5N, so getting into another nasty conflict could be dangerous for Thrane. The Princes of Lhazaar might take this opportunity to raid the southern coast of Breland, causing all sorts of trouble. Also it might be possible that the Valenar, seeking more glory in battle as they are prone to do, might pack themselves on some ships and land in southern Breland, or sail/ride right up the Dagger River, causing all sorts of trouble. Breland can become quite the scene of conflict in a nightmare scenario.
goblin_pride 02-09-07, 04:40 PM	I have been thinking about starting a Brelish Civil War in my current campaign that I have just starting. So I was wondering if anyone had a good idea on how such a conflict might start. It seems most likely that any conflict would start after Boranel. It would be my guess that a conflict would only start if there was somehow a major break between the pro-monarchy and the pro-parliamentary faction, and of course there are other factions such as the Swords of Liberty and the Cyrian Refugees that might be instrumental in starting any conflict. The potential for civil war is present in all the nations of the southwestern section of Khorvaire. Breland has the only truly powerful monarch capable of holding his kingdom together, so I would imagine that the death of Boronel would probably trigger smaller brushfire wars in several of the surrounding countries even if they aren't involved in direct conflict with Breland itself. Zilargo has a stable government with an intricate information-gathering capability and no monarchy so I would imagine they would follow the established Zil pattern and wait until after the dust-up and negotiate with the victors. More likely than not, any army making moves towards annexing the Zil state would find themselves being met at the border with negotiators first and then guerillas if they proceeded with an invasion. Darguun is the most likely to splinter and reform itself of all the nations in the region. Lhesh Haruuc is nominally in control, but even in the ECS the picture painted of the survival of his nation is unlikely if he was somehow removed from power. The natural aggressiveness of the Ghaal'dar goblinoids would make them a prime candidate for invading Breland in the event that Breland suddenly found itself fighting a civil war. The Dhakaani factions in Darguun would more likely see the Ghaal'dar off to war and then seize control, leaving the Ghaal'dar no choice but conquer or die. Droaam is the one other nation that may have a strong ruler, however, the common people of the nation would likely jump on the opportunity to increase their personal wealth and power with spoils and territories carved from the Brelish corpse. The Gnoll bands, ogre chieftains, orc chieftains and other more monsterous denizens of Droaam appear on the surface to be nothing more than a collection of unified city-states and that lack of direct central control suggests that the odds of a Droaamite invasion in the event of a weakened Breland are high. Valenar's involvement would likely come late. The problems of transporting large numbers of elves and horses by sea would be a limiting factor and they wouldn't race to save Breland in the case of an invasion that would provide them a wonderful hunting ground if the monsterous nations succeed in carving Breland up. The only other possible scenario that I can think of is that warbands of the Vales Tairn would hire themselves out to one faction or another in order to have an excuse to enter the fray and establish a sizable colony by seizing a portion of Breland for themselves, much as they did in Valenar. Karrnath and Aundair would most likely jump in on the Monarchist faction, simply so they could attempt to influence the choice of the monarch being seated and possibly give themselves a little bit of the Breland that Boranel held so effectively. Thrane would likely stay out of the conflict entirely in order to avoid the appearance of greed. If Thrane opted instead to join the fight, they would probably weigh in on the Parlimentary side, simply because monarchs tend to want to keep the power that the church would rather put in the hands of Cardinals. The Parliament and the people of Breland would make much better subjects of the church if the church appeared to support their rights to self-rule. The Lhazarite pirates probably couldn't muster the forces to make themselves well-established in the conflict, so they would be fairly limited to raiding the coastal cities and possibly building settlements from which to operate. Without the ability to land massive armies, the princes would most likely sell their services to whichever side couldn't afford to buy the Valenar. All of this is speculation based on the material I've read so far. The best hope Breland has is Boranel living a very long time.
Cifer 02-09-07, 04:58 PM	In the Five Nations supplement however it's stated that Aurala herself is secretly backing Lord Ruken ir'Clarn, the would-be prime minister of Breland. However, I'd say she will immediately remove that support if it appears the parliamentary faction has a serious chance of winning while not being completely owned by Aundair. As has been said, Aurala wants the throne. As such, she wants to keep other nations weak, but definitely monarchic. It's always easier to just change a name somewhere at the top than change the entire system - a people that deems itself free wants to stay that way.
Deus_Proelii 02-09-07, 05:04 PM	As things currently stand a civil war doesn't look likely. However one event could effectively change the political landscape overnight. If Boranel dies, Lord Ruken ir'Clarn will make his bid for power with Aundair's support (according to the Five Nations). What happens depends on who succeeds Boranel. If Boranel's heir is incompetent and unambitious, Lord Ruken will have a case for parliament assuming more power, but the monarchy would probably survive, if only as a figurehead. If Boranel's heir is ambitious and capable, things look more uncertain, Perhaps the next king will be able to outmaneuver Lord Ruken and his supporters and maintain the status quo. If not, at very least he should be able to prevent the monarchy from losing its prerogatives. The worst case is if Boranel's heir is ambitious and incompetent... That scenario would probably result in all-out civil war between the crown and most of parliament. Probably resulting in the abolition or emasculation of the monarchy and the establishment of parliament as the true ruler of Breland.
Yakman 02-09-07, 05:07 PM	The worst case is if Boranel's heir is ambitious and incompetent... That scenario would probably result in all-out civil war between the crown and most of parliament. Probably resulting in the abolition or emasculation of the monarchy and the establishment of parliament as the true ruler of Breland. Or the destruction of the parliament. ;) Kings do win sometimes, you know. And remember, the King sits in Wroat, not Sharn. It's harder to starve him out there, and he can take the war to the lands beyond the Dagger, where his support is likely concentrated--war veterans settled on lands and such.
goblin_pride 02-09-07, 05:35 PM	If Boranel dies, Lord Ruken ir'Clarn will make his bid for power with Aundair's support (according to the Five Nations). What happens depends on who succeeds Boranel. Isn't Boranel's heir currently staying with dear ol' Kaius in Karrnath? If that's the case he'll be learning politics from a right proper bastard, not exactly a good situation for the parliamentarian faction.
Adhevan 02-09-07, 07:54 PM	Isn't Boranel's heir currently staying with dear ol' Kaius in Karrnath? If that's the case he'll be learning politics from a right proper bastard, not exactly a good situation for the parliamentarian faction. Excellent point.
wargod22 02-09-07, 08:31 PM	In order for there to be the best chance of a civil war, it would seem to me that Boranel would have to die suddenly. If Boranel clearly states who he wishes hold power after he dies, that would give a lot of credibility to whoever follows after him. Especially among his most fervent supporters, and the people of Breland. It would be interesting if Boranel, knowing that he is getting on in his age, were to announce who he is going to publically announce who is going to hold power after his death. But right before he announces who is going to rule after him he is suddenly killed (you could have him assassinated in front of a large crowd during the announcement to have an especially dramatic scene, also you can have the fun of everyone blaming everyone else for killing Boranel). Having Boranel die suddenly from supposedly natural causes can have the same effect. Ruken can declare Breland a democracy, and each of Boranel’s children could declare themselves king/queen. It says in 5N that Aurala is playing both sides, which would make sense. I think we can all agree that Aurala is going to support whoever is going to give her the best deal in the end, with likely backstabbing all along the way at her convenience. Aurala can indicate to Ruken that she is going to support him to turn Breland into a democracy with him at its head…as long as he promises to support Aundairs retaking of the Eldeen Reaches, and against Thrane to retake Thaliost, and give over some strategically important land to Aundair. Then when Ruken leads his faction into full civil war mode she can withdraw her support, and let Breland fall into chaos. Another possibility is that Aurala, in the chaos of the war, could rescue/kidnap one of Boranel’s daughters who might be in the hands of the Swords of Liberty or pro-parliament forces. She can then bring her to Aundair, and then make her an offer of either marrying her son Prince Jurian and effectively become her puppet, or spend the rest of her days in a prison. She could officially be the queen of Breland, but it would be Aurala who would be pulling the strings. This is by no means perfect, but it would give a number of advantages to Aurala, and at least place her in a better position then she started in to claim the crown of Galifar. Isn't Boranel's heir currently staying with dear ol' Kaius in Karrnath? If that's the case he'll be learning politics from a right proper bastard, not exactly a good situation for the parliamentarian faction. I believe you are referring to Prince Halix and he is Boranel’s youngest son. He could become quite an opponent under Kaius’ mentoring. In a Sharn Inquisitive article he has even enrolled in Rekkenmark Academy, so he is probably going to be quite militarily savvy after getting out of that school. Kaius could even have Halix marry his “sister” Haydith to firmly tie Halix to himself (it might be helpful if a meddling group of adventurers get Haydith out of a very chaotic Breland). Though there is the problem of just how far Karrnath is away from Breland, which could make supporting Kauis’ claimant to the throne quite difficult. Thrane may not have the luxury of staying out of this conflict if there is the possibility of its neighbors gaining a decisive advantage against it geo-politically. One thing that is hard to determine just where the battle lines will be between the pro-monarchy, and pro-parliament factions. Wroat is both the seat of the King, and Parliament. The Citadel is based in Wroat , and is ran by a lord appointed by the king, but the representative of Wroat is pro-parliament according to 5N, suggesting that there might be some pro-parliamentary forces in the city. So it’s possible that Wroat could go either way in the even of a civil war. It might also be convenient for some if Boranel’s brother Kor were to die suddenly too. Kor has the possibility to be a major force in Breland considering he is the king’s brother, and runs the Citadel.
DragoonDarkfire 02-09-07, 11:35 PM	I think the idea for Breland is that an adventurer could take the position of King of Breland if he were to win enough support from the people. Kinda like King Arthur save more dark and pulpy. Like a burnt spruce.
DyloniusFunk 02-15-07, 11:55 AM	Valenar's involvement would likely come late. The problems of transporting large numbers of elves and horses by sea would be a limiting factor and they wouldn't race to save Breland in the case of an invasion that would provide them a wonderful hunting ground if the monsterous nations succeed in carving Breland up. The only other possible scenario that I can think of is that warbands of the Vales Tairn would hire themselves out to one faction or another in order to have an excuse to enter the fray and establish a sizable colony by seizing a portion of Breland for themselves, much as they did in Valenar. You make a lot of good points, but this one is what i ant to respond to in particular. I find it hard to believe that any faction would hire out the Valaner after what happened last time. Sure they could try the same trick, go to whatever side is doing really badly and offer thier services, but is anyone really gonna believe them? Will the Valaner rep have to be all "Yeah sure we betrayed those Cyre guys and setup our own kingdom from their territory, BUT we PROMISE not to do that to you":D . The rep from both the monarchy side and the democracy side would at least have one thing to agree on, that you can't trust a Valaner as far as you can throw them.
goblin_pride 02-15-07, 11:59 AM	You make a lot of good points, but this one is what i ant to respond to in particular. I find it hard to believe that any faction would hire out the Valaner after what happened last time. Sure they could try the same trick, go to whatever side is doing really badly and offer thier services, but is anyone really gonna believe them? Will the Valaner rep have to be all "Yeah sure we betrayed those Cyre guys and setup our own kingdom from their territory, BUT we PROMISE not to do that to you":D . The rep from both the monarchy side and the democracy side would at least have one thing to agree on, that you can't trust a Valaner as far as you can throw them. I was going to have the Dhakaani do it in my game. Old enemies fighting side-by-side to throw off the usurper nations so they can get back to settling old scores again later.
SSj3goblin 02-18-07, 12:12 AM	One thing that people tend to forget (at least, in my opinion) is that Kaius and Aurala have no real interest in abolishing the monarchy in Breland (Weaking it by supporting the parliament, yes, removing the monarchy, no) because it sets a precedent and puts their very jobs on the line. In the end, it would not be worth it only to get rid of a potential rival to the claim of the Galifar throne.
Elemental_Elf 02-19-07, 01:26 PM	One thing that people tend to forget (at least, in my opinion) is that Kaius and Aurala have no real interest in abolishing the monarchy in Breland (Weaking it by supporting the parliament, yes, removing the monarchy, no) because it sets a precedent and puts their very jobs on the line. In the end, it would not be worth it only to get rid of a potential rival to the claim of the Galifar throne. I disagree, I think both Aurala and Kaius have a vested stake in ridding Breland of its monarchy. They are both in good positions, Kaius has martial law and Aurula has a spy network and the adoration of her people. They are secure but Breland isn't as secure. Monarchs are hard to control but elected officials are not. Elected officials do not come from as much wealth nor do they possess the sheer power as a Monarch. Thus they can be controlled or influenced more easily through such means as black mail, bribes, threats of assassination, etc. A Breland ruled by Parliament is a Breland that can and will be controlled by outside forces. Now the extent to which that control extends to is merely dependent on how corrupt the politicians become.
goblin_pride 02-19-07, 04:50 PM	I disagree, I think both Aurala and Kaius have a vested stake in ridding Breland of its monarchy. Aurala might not think of it this way, but I'm certain that Kaius has come to the conclusion that it would be much easier to take over Breland and install himself and his nobles if the Brelish people would be so good as to dispose of their own. You can always crown another king, but executed monarchs and nobles tend to stay that way. It would be in Kaius' best interest to let the Brelish people try their "little democracy" so that he can sweep in and rescue them from themselves when it all goes horribly wrong.
Logos7 02-23-07, 03:13 PM	I could see a Magna Carta Coming! And i think the gnomes could surprise people, We'll surport the repoblic because we all know republics would never go to war with other republics like ourselves. or do they ...
Yakman 02-23-07, 03:24 PM	Aurala might not think of it this way, but I'm certain that Kaius has come to the conclusion that it would be much easier to take over Breland and install himself and his nobles if the Brelish people would be so good as to dispose of their own. You can always crown another king, but executed monarchs and nobles tend to stay that way. It would be in Kaius' best interest to let the Brelish people try their "little democracy" so that he can sweep in and rescue them from themselves when it all goes horribly wrong. Problem is, they might try to 'export' some of that democracy. This would not be in Kaius' best interest.
Darth Syntax 02-23-07, 03:48 PM	I'm not sure Kaius would want to destabilize Breland all that much, considering the apparently close ties between the Karrnathi state and the Brelish royal family. Kaius' main political foes are Thrane and Aurala, not the Brels, so he is far more likely to act against them. Also, given that Kaius is the architect of the current peace, I don't think he wants to retake Galifar. Kaius would rather have peace and order than see a reunited Galifaran Empire. Frankly, I have been portraying Kaius as quite vocally opposed to the re-unification, calling it a mad man's dream. This is why he and Aurala are so opposed. When the Brelish civil war happens, Kaius would be far more likely to remain neutral in the conflict, but provide some measure of protection to any fleeing Brelish royals. Eventually, I can see Karrnath (and Zilargo) acting as a broker for peace in Breland and to prevent the conflict from spreading and starting another war. Again, peace, order, and prosperity are far more important to Kaius than royal power or noble privilege.
Melvin the Mediocre 02-23-07, 04:58 PM	I've spent a fair amount of time wondering why Kaius worked so hard to declare peace. And I think he still wants to win, but just realized the warfare was going to destroy the prize. So I figure he is trying to raise Prince Halix as a very succesful king, but one who is totally loyal to Kaius. If he succeeds (even through frequent uses of his dominate ability) he could turn Breland into a puppete kingdom and a huge supporter of an Emperor Kaius, ruler of the New Galifar.
Yakman 02-23-07, 05:13 PM	I've spent a fair amount of time wondering why Kaius worked so hard to declare peace. And I think he still wants to win, but just realized the warfare was going to destroy the prize. So I figure he is trying to raise Prince Halix as a very succesful king, but one who is totally loyal to Kaius. If he succeeds (even through frequent uses of his dominate ability) he could turn Breland into a puppete kingdom and a huge supporter of an Emperor Kaius, ruler of the New Galifar. I disagree. I believe that Kaius recognized that: a) He wasn't winning ---Karrnath had been decimated in the early decades of the war and never recovered. They'd had to turn to undead forces, which, while powerful, were only an admission of structural weakness. Moreover, he was not in control of any more territory than he had been at the war's outset--in fact he had lost a lot of land to the dwarves and the lhazar pirates. The Valenar and the Talentans were raiding his exposed frontier. His position was weak and showing no sign of improvement. b) Breland was winning ---After the Mourning, Breland emerged as the dominant military/economic power on Khorvaire. With double Thrane's population, and an even larger economy, Breland could possibly had destroyed Thrane, and then been in a position to co-opt Aundair in a final thrust at Karrnath. As such, it was imperative that Kaius look for peace to stave off utter defeat in the next few years. c) He was in danger ---Someone or something caused it. Maybe Kaius knows. Maybe he doesn't. Either way, he needed to secure himself against that power. Continuing the war was a distraction to the real problem: WTF did it, and how to keep it from happening again. d) Even if he could win, he couldn't ---Kaius is in a delicate position. He cannot declare his vampirism openly, as he would lose all claim to the throne. However, even if he were in a position to do so, he could not actually go and conquer another country. Doing so would mean personal appearances. That risks exposing his secret. As such, he had to stay in Korth--and the only way to stay in Korth is to either continue fighting an unwinnable war or to make peace. e) He was broke ---Who's been paying for the war? The Aurum. What happens when you miss an interest payment to those guys? I don't really want to think about it, but they have thousands of dwarves in your exposed rear, ready to come out of the hills and take you to town. Karrnath--and the rest of the nations for that matter--must have been in ruinous financial straits after a century of fighting.
SwarthmoreDB 02-27-07, 08:55 PM	OOH!!! It can be like the Spanish Civil War in real life and all that! So who will win in this one, the Monarchists or the Democrats???
Korhal IV 02-28-07, 12:51 AM	You make a lot of good points, but this one is what i ant to respond to in particular. I find it hard to believe that any faction would hire out the Valaner after what happened last time. Sure they could try the same trick, go to whatever side is doing really badly and offer thier services, but is anyone really gonna believe them? Unfortunately, the Valenar may be offering the proverbial deal that's too good to be true. Mechanically, we know each Valenar is at least 4th-8th level, whereas your average Brelish soldier is 1st or possibly 2nd. Higher-level characters can take out exponentially more low-level characters in flat-out hand-to-hand, and if you play as smart as the Valenar do, we're talking huge, huge numbers of casualties. In one of Keith's books, Daine, who's not exactly a low-level guy, and his companions need to go to Cannith and plead desperately for a king's ransom's worth of warforged scouts just to have an even shot at dealing with the solitary Valenar warband that's set up camp near their fortress. One band of Valenar to ruin an entire Cyran FORTRESS! Both sides of this conflict will be filthy rich - nobles and monarchs alike, and if their lives are at stake they won't hesitate to pay for the best, particularly since the Valenar can legitimately point out that they used to rule the land they took over. They never came as far as Breland, so they have no desire for that land. And frankly, the Valenar revolt in Cyre probably came as fantastic news to the Brelish - we know they haven't got any good opinions of the Cyrans, and sitting on the Cyran border left them open to depredation. Eventually, the Valenar will be employed. And with Cannith "unable" to manufacture warforged, your only counter to Valenar is...more Valenar! I'm not so sure any of the major powers will meddle directly in Brelish affairs - for Karrnath to back Boranel's son is to open themselves to Aundair's backing of Rukan, and for Thrane to back a third power. After all, if either faction wins, Breland will be in that nation's pocket - something Thrane can't afford to let happen in the name of balance of power - and I'd bet galifars to crowns Cardinal Krozen is the fiercest sort of realpolitiker. Pretty soon we'll be right back to the Last War!
Kensan_Oni 02-28-07, 12:56 AM	Phss... This is a no brainer question. Breeland is a Fuedal Society. Therefore, if the king dies without a hier, there is two things that could happen, and ONLY two. 1) The remaining dukes start... 'duking' it out to determine who becomes the next king. This is not a likely situation in breeland, although it probably will happen 2) The most likely happening is that the Historians will go into the archives, and trace back linages to the next likely duke with the most royal blood. Then whoever is that person's heir becomes the King. There might be some rebellion against the choice, but typically people accept this, historiclly. So, there you go.
goblin_pride 02-28-07, 01:00 AM	Both sides of this conflict will be filthy rich - nobles and monarchs alike, and if their lives are at stake they won't hesitate to pay for the best, particularly since the Valenar can legitimately point out that they used to rule the land they took over. The only nation that could point out that the Valenar have a legitimate claim to their nation is the Dhakaani that currently reside in hiding in Darguun. Sure, the rest could say that the Valenar have claim by rights of Cyran promise to those lands, but the Dhakaani were the only other game in town when the Vales Tairn first occupied Valenar. I still say the most likely employer of the Valenar would be the remnant empire because they would be the most likely to view an alliance with old enemies to be a stepping stones towards getting things back to the way they were.
Korhal IV 02-28-07, 03:24 AM	I still say the most likely employer of the Valenar would be the remnant empire because they would be the most likely to view an alliance with old enemies to be a stepping stones towards getting things back to the way they were. Oh heck no. Ancient grudges NEVER die, man - have you ever taken a look at the wars in the Middle East? I don't know what Dhakaani opinion of the Valenar is, but I know what Valenar opinion of the Dhakaani is - they're raiding Darguun just as often as Karrnath!
Darth Syntax 02-28-07, 04:19 AM	The raids might actually indicate that they respect the goblinoids and the Karrnathi, considering that the Valenar have a cultural bias toward testing themselves against "worthy" foes.
Deus_Proelii 02-28-07, 04:36 AM	Phss... This is a no brainer question. Breeland is a Fuedal Society. Therefore, if the king dies without a hier, there is two things that could happen, and ONLY two. 1) The remaining dukes start... 'duking' it out to determine who becomes the next king. This is not a likely situation in breeland, although it probably will happen 2) The most likely happening is that the Historians will go into the archives, and trace back linages to the next likely duke with the most royal blood. Then whoever is that person's heir becomes the King. There might be some rebellion against the choice, but typically people accept this, historiclly. So, there you go. ......... :uh-huh: All the material on Breland suggests that, while it is still far short of a "nation" in the modern sense, it is far more than "just" a feudal society. I think the situation is complex enough that there could be far more potential outcomes than just your two. Every poster before you has, I think, quite amply demonstrated that.
goblin_pride 02-28-07, 06:53 AM	I don't know what Dhakaani opinion of the Valenar is, but I know what Valenar opinion of the Dhakaani is - they're raiding Darguun just as often as Karrnath! Darguun is not Dhakaani. Additionally, the Valenar have no access to Darguun except by sea. Since horses don't swim terribly well, I can't imagine the Valenar do all that much raiding into Darguun. My speculation is based on a couple key points. First, that the Dhakaani and Valenar have a mutual respect for ancient enemies and a strong desire to relive the ancient glories. Second is that they would view eliminating outsiders as important to returning the playing field to the way it was. And finally that the Valenar would want to rebuild the Dhakaani empire to it's former glory to increase the honor gained in fighting it at a later time*. *as an elf lives for a millenia, it is possible that they might see laying aside this old grudge as a means of recreating the very situation that occured when last the Vales Tairn occupied the area known as Valenar. It's not that they're letting bygones be bygones, they're just setting the stage back to the way it was the last time they clashed. Granted the last time they clashed, some of the current Valenar's great-grandfathers may have ridden against the Dhakaani armies.
Ellorin 03-01-07, 04:13 AM	......... :uh-huh: All the material on Breland suggests that, while it is still far short of a "nation" in the modern sense, it is far more than "just" a feudal society. I think the situation is complex enough that there could be far more potential outcomes than just your two. Every poster before you has, I think, quite amply demonstrated that. Indeed. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised to see Ruken ir' Clarn becoming the equivalent of a Lord Protector, more or less like Oliver Cromwell( but without the puritanical tones).After that...who knows?
Darth Syntax 03-01-07, 04:49 AM	I agree about the Cromwell idea, mix the English Civil war with the Reign of Terror and thats about what I imagine will happen in Breland. On the question of the Brelish government and economy Several sources including the ECS refer to Breland as an industrial power, which is further supported by the existence of the Cogs in Sharn. Moreover, the existence of the Brelish Parliament would seem to preclude standard feudal practice. In my imagining of Breland, the various nobles, landholders, and the like tend to spend the vast majority of their time in and around Wroat, and it might be years, or in the case of several MP's never, between visits to the lands they are supposedly in charge of. Power is Breland is not measured in land, it is measured in wealth, and it is measured in political power in Parliament. Indeed, out of all the Five Nations, only 1 really would seem to qualify as a feudal state, and that is Aundair (although I tend to see absolutist tendencies there as well). Karrnath is, like Breland, termed industrial, Thrane seems to be a town-based society relying heavily on small scale or cottage industry, rather than agrarian, and Cyre was undoubtedly at least as industrialized as Breland and Karrnath.
maollelujah 03-01-07, 10:51 AM	Personally I don't see Breland splitting up after the death of Boranel. There might be some troubles stirred up by several members of parliement, but I envision that the Heir, whoever that might be, will become King. Even Cromwell didn't end the rule of Kings in Great Britian, as Charles II became King. Another big thing in Breland is that the King already has a standing army at his disposal, while Parliament has none. So the balance of power is surely in favor of the King. Parliaments don't preclude Feudalism, as most medieval countries had parliaments in the late middle ages that had received concessions from the King. Now if Ruken ir'Clarn had everything go his way and he does get rid of the King and takes over the country, I see him more as a Robespiere than a Cromwell, and wouldn't bat an eye at the thought of his taking on his rivals through a variety of schemes and trumped up charges.
Yakman 03-01-07, 02:48 PM	I think that Boranel's heir will inherit. i think that Boranel represents a figure akin to Elizabeth I of England. She was only the fourth ruler of the Tudor line (similar to Boranel's only century-old dynasty), but she legitimized a monarchy that had been racked by scandal, incompetence, and tyranny, and re-invigorated the country. She was so successful that her heir was the King of Scotland(!), the son of her most implacable opponent, and his rule, while full of skeptics was largely unchallenged. It was only his son, who was a moron and a dictator, who brought on the English Civil War. As such, while we see none of Boranel's children possessing his natural acumen, none of them seem to be incompetent or violent or violent. The monarchy will stay--and if parliament should decide to challenge it, the revolt will be short-lived.